I just found your video the other day. I have watched it twice now. Thanks for the great explanation. I like the whiteboard discussion method. Knowing the pros and cons of balance is good to know. My sporting gun is front heavy. I am going to try and balance it myself to be neutral balanced between front and back. I will start there. Thanks again. Jim-Georgia, USA
Jon, Imagine two 4 ft 1' steel bars. take a cannon ball and drill a a hole through its center slightly larger than 1'. Slide the ball onto the bar and center it on the bar. Now, imagine two similar balls whose total weight is equal to the weight of the larger ball. Drill these as well. Position the two balls at the end of the 2nd bar. These two "systems" each weigh the same and have the same balance points. But one is easily rotated the other exhibits "stability", ie in comparison to the other , resistance to rotation. The difference is the different Moments of Inertia of the two systems. Examples comparing Mid engine sports cars to 4 wheel drive Jeeps (two differentials) or of wheels having a difference in weight distribution (flywheels come to mind). might make the point as well. Sorry for the pedantry, I was am an engineer, But in the video with Simon, discussing the John Dickson, you recognized exactly this principle when you pointed out the action differences, the trigger plate action and its related consequence, the shortening of the bar, both having the effect of centering the weight distribution. I have no experience but it would seem that adding weight to the rear of the stock could achieve a desired balance pt but likely not have the desired effect if a fast game gun were the desired outcome. One could get very fussy it would appear, or spoiled, should ones first shotgun be a John Dickson or McKay Brown SXS.. Herman Meilinger
Loving the white board lecture style, very informative. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Still amazed you have the time to do these videos and run a business !
Hi Jon. I didn’t quite understand your browning Cynergy comment. Did you mean Cynergy is forward heavy but still ok or that it’s so front heavy it’s nearly impossible to shoot? Thanks. Great video.
Excellent video again,dudes! Very informative. I'm just getting into clay shooting, and I've run into the different trigger designs on break-actions: inertia vs mechanical. The mechanics seems straightforward, but do you guys think you'll ever make a video outlining the advantages/disadvantages of each?
Very well put together Jon. Don Amos (an Engineer from North Carolina) built a device that measured “Moment of Inertia”. He had a very good article published in Shooting Sportsman magazine (Sept/Oct 2001). I would have like to see the research expanded upon & made more main stream.. My 1 suggestion would be to cease describing balance in relation to the hinge pin. It seems to me this is a very nebulous location. I shoot a K80. I’m confident the person that shoots a Browning/Miroku or Perazzi finds that location differently than I. I would submit that inches/mm in front of the trigger would be more consistent across the board. As the trigger hand is an epicenter (1 of 2) of our sense of gun balance. Keep up your good work. Matt
Great job as usual. Clearly you love what you do as it always shows in your knowledge and presentation not to mention it’s rare that you do a video without dirty hands lol!
Surely if you pop a couple of shells into the chambers the PoB moves back towards the stock? Or is the weight/lead directly above the hinge pin on average...
That was exactly what I wanted to understand. I will double check the balance of my gun before I shoot it for the first time. I think I will also lengthen the stock slightly also as I am a bit close to my thumb. I might even put my own video up as I have not shot in over 20 years telling how I got on.
I think the biggest effect on the gun is, as you say, where the weight is. Using the broomstick idea imagine the weights at the very ends will need a lot more effort to swing that the same stick with the weights in the middle.
I shoot English sporting, but being new, find I have a more instinctive style, so, should I go for a less front heavy gun? (Currently got the SV10 that Johnny saw at Holt's back in June 20)
Years ago (10+) I saw an article about a man that had built a test jig to quantify the balance and swing attributes of guns. He was testing guns at a Vintegers event. I believe the article may have been in Shooting Sportsman magazine. Very interesting, as I recall.
Overall weight is also more important. A gun can be extremely light but also front heavy. But still too uncontrolled as the shooter over powers it with their strength.
I have a 12 G Citori CXS with adjustable comb. I seem to be having challenges swinging the gun on station 2 and 6, do you think adding weight to the stock will help ? If so approx how much ?
Ive never had much luck making a nose heavy shotgun swing better by weighting the butt. What does work if you aren't terribly large statured can be to shorten the stock (preferably non destructively). While this may make the gun balance nose heavy it means you grasp the gun more forwards moving the mass rearwards and in effect reducing the effort of the gun. IMO many people can handle shorter LOP better than overly front heavy guns. Just an opinion.
Dumb off topic question: What would happen if you fire a over under or side by side without the forend on it? Also the fit between my forend is extremely tight, too tight. Would it hurt anything to remove material from the forend where it contacts the side of the receiver?(it is a Tristar, so I am not too worried about messing with it)
We obviously recommend that you dont! .... but providing your joint is sound - not a lot will happen other than the cartridge going bang! Make sure it is the wood and not the contact with the forend loop before messing with either part
I was not planning on shooting it without the forend, so I will heed your recommendation. Ultimately my question is whether the forend is a critical part in the lockup of the gun when it fires. Sorry, I am not sure what the forend loop is?
the little part that the forend clips onto also puts pressure between the forend and the action, this pressure can be regulated to ease the way it come on and off and how the action opens and closes
I sent a facebook message to your page with a photo detailing my question, thanks again! I found a video from MidwayUSA that shows some of what we discussed pretty well, but is not quite what I am trying to get to the bottom of. th-cam.com/video/J-7jcApXEVU/w-d-xo.html
Here is a video of a interesting side by side being fired without a forend. So this suggests to me that I can remove some metal from the forend's sides without making it unsafe, since a forend is not involved in locking the barrel to the receiver, or am I incorrect? th-cam.com/video/fxSjLllBbQ4/w-d-xo.html
I just found your video the other day. I have watched it twice now. Thanks for the great explanation. I like the whiteboard discussion method. Knowing the pros and cons of balance is good to know. My sporting gun is front heavy. I am going to try and balance it myself to be neutral balanced between front and back. I will start there. Thanks again. Jim-Georgia, USA
Interesting and thought provoking. Thanks
Jon, Imagine two 4 ft 1' steel bars. take a cannon ball and drill a a hole through its center slightly larger than 1'. Slide the ball onto the bar and center it on the bar. Now, imagine two similar balls whose total weight is equal to the weight of the larger ball. Drill these as well. Position the two balls at the end of the 2nd bar. These two "systems" each weigh the same and have the same balance points. But one is easily rotated the other exhibits
"stability", ie in comparison to the other , resistance to rotation. The difference is the different Moments of Inertia of the two systems. Examples comparing Mid engine sports cars to 4 wheel drive Jeeps (two differentials) or of wheels having a difference in weight distribution (flywheels come to mind). might make the point as well.
Sorry for the pedantry, I was am an engineer, But in the video with Simon, discussing the John Dickson, you recognized exactly this principle when you pointed out the action differences, the trigger plate action and its related consequence, the shortening of the bar, both having the effect of centering the weight distribution.
I have no experience but it would seem that adding weight to the rear of the stock could achieve a desired balance pt but likely not have the desired effect if a fast game gun were the desired outcome. One could get very fussy it would appear, or spoiled, should ones first shotgun be a John Dickson or McKay Brown SXS..
Herman Meilinger
Loving the white board lecture style, very informative. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Still amazed you have the time to do these videos and run a business !
Hi Jon. I didn’t quite understand your browning Cynergy comment. Did you mean Cynergy is forward heavy but still ok or that it’s so front heavy it’s nearly impossible to shoot?
Thanks. Great video.
A couple of questions come to mind, should you balance it loaded? and what about a semi auto?
Excellent video again,dudes! Very informative.
I'm just getting into clay shooting, and I've run into the different trigger designs on break-actions: inertia vs mechanical.
The mechanics seems straightforward, but do you guys think you'll ever make a video outlining the advantages/disadvantages of each?
Very well put together Jon. Don Amos (an Engineer from North Carolina) built a device that measured “Moment of Inertia”. He had a very good article published in Shooting Sportsman magazine (Sept/Oct 2001). I would have like to see the research expanded upon & made more main stream..
My 1 suggestion would be to cease describing balance in relation to the hinge pin. It seems to me this is a very nebulous location. I shoot a K80. I’m confident the person that shoots a Browning/Miroku or Perazzi finds that location differently than I. I would submit that inches/mm in front of the trigger would be more consistent across the board. As the trigger hand is an epicenter (1 of 2) of our sense of gun balance.
Keep up your good work. Matt
Great job as usual. Clearly you love what you do as it always shows in your knowledge and presentation not to mention it’s rare that you do a video without dirty hands lol!
In a short sentence. JOHN KNOWS HIS SHIT.
Cheers mate
Surely if you pop a couple of shells into the chambers the PoB moves back towards the stock? Or is the weight/lead directly above the hinge pin on average...
That was exactly what I wanted to understand. I will double check the balance of my gun before I shoot it for the first time. I think I will also lengthen the stock slightly also as I am a bit close to my thumb.
I might even put my own video up as I have not shot in over 20 years telling how I got on.
I think the biggest effect on the gun is, as you say, where the weight is. Using the broomstick idea imagine the weights at the very ends will need a lot more effort to swing that the same stick with the weights in the middle.
Very informative, great video , thanks.
I shoot English sporting, but being new, find I have a more instinctive style, so, should I go for a less front heavy gun? (Currently got the SV10 that Johnny saw at Holt's back in June 20)
Very informative, can you do a balance video on semi auto, like an A400 Xcel. Thanks
when you mount a shotkam do you rebalance to compensate?
Years ago (10+) I saw an article about a man that had built a test jig to quantify the balance and swing attributes of guns. He was testing guns at a Vintegers event. I believe the article may have been in Shooting Sportsman magazine. Very interesting, as I recall.
Karl Messerschmidt The mans name could have been Don Amos. See my comment.
Thanks for the info jon
Brill, amazing how Browning (non Belgium) and Miroku maintain balance with that mass of ejector kicker mechanism in the forend,
Engraved and checkered 😂😂👍
arm length makes a different to wanting rear or barrel heavy?
Overall weight is also more important.
A gun can be extremely light but also front heavy. But still too uncontrolled as the shooter over powers it with their strength.
I have a 12 G Citori CXS with adjustable comb. I seem to be having challenges swinging the gun on station 2 and 6, do you think adding weight to the stock will help ? If so approx how much ?
It will certainly make it move a little quicker. Check out our cheap to charming series, one of the episodes has a segment on quick balancing
Ive never had much luck making a nose heavy shotgun swing better by weighting the butt. What does work if you aren't terribly large statured can be to shorten the stock (preferably non destructively). While this may make the gun balance nose heavy it means you grasp the gun more forwards moving the mass rearwards and in effect reducing the effort of the gun. IMO many people can handle shorter LOP better than overly front heavy guns. Just an opinion.
Dumb off topic question: What would happen if you fire a over under or side by side without the forend on it? Also the fit between my forend is extremely tight, too tight. Would it hurt anything to remove material from the forend where it contacts the side of the receiver?(it is a Tristar, so I am not too worried about messing with it)
We obviously recommend that you dont! .... but providing your joint is sound - not a lot will happen other than the cartridge going bang! Make sure it is the wood and not the contact with the forend loop before messing with either part
I was not planning on shooting it without the forend, so I will heed your recommendation. Ultimately my question is whether the forend is a critical part in the lockup of the gun when it fires. Sorry, I am not sure what the forend loop is?
the little part that the forend clips onto also puts pressure between the forend and the action, this pressure can be regulated to ease the way it come on and off and how the action opens and closes
I sent a facebook message to your page with a photo detailing my question, thanks again! I found a video from MidwayUSA that shows some of what we discussed pretty well, but is not quite what I am trying to get to the bottom of. th-cam.com/video/J-7jcApXEVU/w-d-xo.html
Here is a video of a interesting side by side being fired without a forend. So this suggests to me that I can remove some metal from the forend's sides without making it unsafe, since a forend is not involved in locking the barrel to the receiver, or am I incorrect? th-cam.com/video/fxSjLllBbQ4/w-d-xo.html
Pickup a fixed choke proper spec Perazzi and all this goes out the window. They are like magic wands.
Absolutely dreamy to shoot.
Cheers Mate!
Nice
You talk very fast😂😂😂I'm from Argentina
How well balanced is the miroku mk70 shorter with a 30" barrel? I'm considering buying one as my first clay gun
Some can be a little front heavy.
How about a Caesar Guerini Magnus Field in 20 gauge and 30” barrels?
Is that your gun John? Looks just right!
1valg not mine I’m afraid no
This guy is very hard to listen to