In my very first game, I was playing a first-level character with 1hp. I was killed by a 0th level farm girl with a sling. I loved it and think about that moment a lot, even 30 years later.
I did say that you need to break a lot of legs, whole fucking god damn lot of legs, in order to build it, there would be fuck ton of assassin otherwise
Died in your first campaign? My first character died in not only my first game, not only the first battle, but in the first ROUND of the first combat! The GM running it used a critical hit and fumble house rule. My character, a 1st level cleric, lost initiative and a kobold critical hit him in the first round. Boom. Dead. I'm turning 60 this year and still play D&D a couple times a year.
Well...I learned important lessons from that experience. As a player I learned to not get too attached to my characters! As a GM I learned that playing characters should always be exceptional characters, a cut above the common riffraff...Especially if you you're going to use fumble and critical charts. The game I was in used the straight-from-the-book character generation method: 3d6 per attribute and then you build a character off that. Which means you will, on average, only generate average stats characters, which is not survivable in the long run. So I, and most of my GM friends, have switched to various methods of character gen that allows players to get above average characters and to be able to conceptualize the kind of character they want to build before dice rolls. For example, a common method we used was: roll 4d6 for every attribute and ignore the lowest roll. Do that 4 times and take the one you like of those 4. And/or allow the player to flip-flop the dice roll for 2 attributes. If your best set of rolls came up with STR 17 and INT 8 and you really want to play a MU ... flip those rolls. Trying, of course, not to build TOO overpowered characters. It really should be all about the fun, not making due with whatever numbers RNGesus gives you.
emdotambient Yeah, I agree that PCs should be a cut above the rest. I've found that 4d6 drop the lowest, place in any order, has a good chance of getting some nice stats.
@@emdotambient This is why I think the best way to make characters is the point buy system that came out in 3.5. Every PC character is equal, everyone gets the stats they want to make their character go, and if they do min-max, there are consequences for that. It also meant that you could have a viable character with 14s, even a caster class. Now you can play a Cleric of a War God and have decent physical stats or a charismatic Wizard who uses a sword (coughGandalfcough).
The thing about the 10th-level assassin is that it doesn't necessarily show up immediately (if it does at all). The group could be a few levels higher by the time it catches up to them. Heck, by the time it does, the party could be its level if they have been off in the wilderness exploring ancient ruins and dungeons and not in civilization where the assassin can track their comings and goings. It all depends upon the way the campaign develops. The Village of Hommlet is a prime example of an early D&D adventure: poor layout, editing, and obviously the writers were still learning as to what works when making a module (including layout and editing). But, I do agree that it really needs the GM to do a bit of work prepping it when it really didn't need to be that way.
I remember that 6 year gap so well. A friend of mine who DM'd a number of us in The Village of Hommlet kept wondering what was taking so long but by the time the Temple came out we were miles apart in different states. :/
My first adventure didn't just end in my character's death, but a TPK... and mission success. It was the 3.0 red box intro, where you're trying to rescue a unicorn that's been captured by a bunch of goblins. Due to poor tactics and several lousy rolls, everyone but my dwarf fighter fell to the giant spider at the end. The dwarf had been poisoned by the spider's bite, but he managed to strike the final blow, then cut the unicorn's bonds... and then succumbed to the poison despite his dwarven resilience. The unicorn eventually woke up and looked sadly at the poor dead adventurers, but walked free at last.
About dying on your very first adventure: About 18 years ago I went to our rpg-club the first time. Young, adventurous and eager to play me some D&D or DSA or Shadowrun... Alas, although the club had about 30 members at that time, the only rpg-tables available were already full, so I stood there a bit lost in this large backhall of the restaurant the club met. Then some guys walked up and said: Hey - we don't play rpg tonight - but if you want, you can join our Babylon 5 Wars (tabletop wargaming with lots of lead-spaceships). Yeah - what could I tell... I went down in history as the worst Admiral the Grand Centauri Empire ever enlisted. I did not only loose my ships, they were obliberated, shot to many many small pieces without ever standing a chance. Due to bad dice and foremost an utter lack of tactical skill compared with dangerous half-knowledge and overestemating my chances... Somehow, however, the flagship managed to escape on the last 3 hitpoints (bridge, damaged engines, and one hapless Centauri soldier firing out of some hull-breach, of whom we had plenty, with his sidearm). So it had all the ingredents of a 'never-again'-experience, but It just made so damn much fun :D. The strangers who invited me on their table are now among my dearest friends and we share lots and lots of actual rpg-experiences together :D
My first adventure was the Keep on the Borderlands. I died too, and couldn't get enough of it. My dad ran it for me, my brother and sister, and our neighbor. We probably ran 10 more groups through the Caves of Chaos over the years, because I was poor, lived out in the middle of nowhere, and had to buy my own stuff. I sure didn't quit though. Here I am nearly 40 years later, still playing.
Jason I onboarded a new player a few weeks ago, and he died in the quick solo one shot I ran for him. Tried to take on about 30 orcs all by himself. 😁 It was lots of fun though!
I ran the Temple of Elemental Evil in college. The PCs were exploring the town, and I asked where they wanted to go next. One player said, "Well, I guess we should go to the Moathouse." I said, "What moathouse?", to which, all the other players said, "Yeah. What moathouse?" He had read the module about six months prior. He was asked not to take part, not only because he read it, but because he tried to cover up that he had.
Gygax’s writing style for adventures was always background heavy, skeletal things intended to be customized for the campaign. Lots of folks, never caught on, which is why they get a pretty bad reputation. The same with the dungeon crawl, if the DM wasn’t as inventive as Gary, or the players not as crafty as Ernie and co., it wouldn’t turn out well. It was only when I had this slap me in the face that I really started getting into the plot, rather than treating the game as a tactical/ problem solving exercise
Truth. Having a great group will keep players having fun and coming back even when sessions go sideways and end in PC death. If everyone is laughing and having fun, then the game becomes about just playing the game regardless of how it goes. If the group is toxic, then everyone NEEDS the adventure to go perfectly in order for them to have fun, and even then they still might not.
Doing anything for the first time in life with toxic people is not a lot of fun. Dnd, fishing, biking..... So we have to infer that what you suggest is that there is a relation “”dnd=probable toxic group”.... You should maybe explain this nonsense further Regards!!
This adventure is an excellent example of why I always retype premade adventures. Most modules need some extra customization and allow a little leeway with that area. But some (like this one) leave TOO MUCH open for customization.
the Moathouse was my first game! I was the last one standing when ghouls levelled our party, and I saved us with a roll of either 16 or 18, felling the last one and dragging us all out of the dungeon to rest and heal. Amazing! Also: I loved you "the rats were earlier, I lost the use of my arm, and yadda yadda yadda, I died." Thanks, Elaine!
Totally Agree. In my years of playing AD&D from 1980 up to 1985 my best times in commercial modules were Tomb of the Lizard King and Secret of Bone Hill.
Great review. Very accurate assessment if T-1. Back in the early days of D&D this was my template on what a town should be like, so most of my villages resembled Hommlet or The Keep On the Birderlands.
I think you are doing a great job of modeling storytelling for the hobby. My experience of 25 years has shown me that there is a pervasive attitude out there that published Adventures should only be run "as is" because "balance." In reality that is just an excuse for not knowing how to make published Adventures better.
I love seeing Jack in his D&D getup, it's just so classic! I think my favourite Jack moment was in that costume in the Ravenloft review when he realised vampires might be involved :P
I am a solo player and I more or less randomly picked up this module. I couldn't really make sense of it, I am grateful for this video that hopefully made the thing playable for me.
Man, I love your videos. Your reviews are so useful and fun. You and Matt Colville are my go-to TH-camrs for DMing. Wish you had more reviews of modern adventures though.
Nicely done, as always. I own both Hommlett and Temple of Elemental Evil but never got around to running either one. I especially love your take on the fact that your character died and you continued to want to play. More death is what every game needs!
Eventually I'll do a video about game journals. Every game (except total 1-shots) that we've played for the last 19 years has been chronicled as we play. One player is in charge of The Journal. At the end of the year we have a Journal Reading Party where we all get together, bring spouses or significant others who want to experience ultra-nerdy, and read the year's journal and laugh and reminisce over the awesome and hilarious events that occurred over the last year. When we get to a PC death or a very significant NPC death, we toast to the fallen. The result is that when we have a PC die in a game we often say "They're just making sure we have enough toasts as the Journal Party in December."
Very cool. I've been documenting all my games since 1991 with the newer journals being quite long as I record the game sessions (since about 07) and try to actually get dialogue down. Many of them are up online and I'm getting even more on my patreon now. I used to read out loud to my friends sometimes and they loved it. I think it's important to record game sessions in some form, personally. Too many great stories are lost forever.
I don’t think character death is necessarily a problem, it’s how you die that matters - providing its memorable & has plot significance then I find most players are Ok with it (even newbies)
I think as long as they can tell they either had a reasonable chance to have succeeded or that the death was avoidable, but their actions led to it (that part can be trickier). For example, in modern/scifi I never have the super sniper shoot the PCs as the opening shot. They either miss, but usually blow away an NPC as the announcement "SNIPER!". Then the PCs can all hit the deck and try to close the distance or flee, knowing that a single shot from this bastard is likely going to kill them. Those become intense and fun. But if I opened the combat with a PC getting killed with zero warning, then the players would all understandably be pissed as hell.
Seth Skorkowsky yes we have to remember that we’re playing a game and games are supposed to be fun :). Sure assassins might not play fair IRL but that doesn’t make for a compelling story
KayleeBrowncoat Agreed. I've jad 2 TPKs in my groups in the last several months. One was tons of fun, and the players were laughing all the way to the grave. The other was a little more grim, but still fun. 😁
why should it be significant or have plot significance... no dm plans for their players to lose a character... i want the good ol dnd where your characters had a very high likely hood of dying.
Good review. It's funny, I agree with all your criticisms, but this is still one of my favorites. Perhaps it's fondness for an old flame (bought it when it was brand new in '79), but I love Hommlet. Good suggestions on how to use it, btw, and great recommendations for substitute adventures. Never thought to merge Bone Hill and Saltmarsh, must steal that one day.
Part of why "first adventure death turns off new players" might just be that in modern D&D, character creation takes a *lot* longer and dying is quite a bit harder, so dying with both of those things on your first adventure feels bad in a way that dying early on in earlier editions didn't, and dying later on in a 5e campaign doesn't.
Oh my god. I'm running temple of Elemental evil right now. Hommlet is their current base of operations. I love this adventure so much. That said, you do bring up good points about not being for novice gms. I took a lot of inspiration from the Temple of Elemental Evil PC game for character names/personalities side quests and plot hooks. Elmo is by far one of my players' favorites. The group is currently on Dungeon Level 2 of the temple trying to deal with the various elemental cults without getting killed themselves.
I am loving these vintage module reviews! I have several of the ones reviewed, but some have been in storage that I didn't know much about, so these videos are extremely helpful in sorting out the most promising ones to dust off and use. It is great to get a second opinion, as I have heard some folks praise Hommlet, yet bash Bone Hill. But with your full and articulate analyses, I see the bigger picture and potential for using these. Thanks so much! I have gotten great ideas here.
Another great video, Seth! The druid grove in the middle of the village always struck me as odd, but this is a great module to leverage if you want to make a generic "town near some small ruins" adventure in a pinch. You just change a few details to reuse it, or you can use it as a template to make your own from scratch. It's super helpful for new or first-time DMs to see how basic exploration adventures are set up.
Like others have noted, your reviews of the classic modules are great! I'd love to see you do more. The Keep on the Borderlands... The Tomb of Horrors... so many great old school modules for you to do, but so little time. LOL
The PC game did the whole intro to Hommlet quite good imho. Based on Your alignment there was a small opening vignette that gave them a reason to come to Hommlet and meet the first person, like Elves asked them to deliver something to a local Elf or You have to deliver the news of a certain death to the head of the church and similar ones... Similarly the player gets a plothook to go to the moathouse by getting the quest to find out where a band of local bandits operates from
I would highly recommend reading Elizabeth Moon's The Deed of Paksenarrion. A trilogy (also in omnibus form) during which the title character goes to Hommlet (under a different name, but the story was based on an earlier D&D game she was part of) in the second book and deals with the Moathouse. In her version, the bandits were under a compulsion to remain and become bandits. I've run the module numerous times. The last time, a couple of years ago, the PCs did talk to Lugash. Well, the really high charisma character did. Well enough that they didn't fight him. In fact, he actually helped them fight the Ghouls because they knocked on his door after leading them there and he thought they were attacking him! Good times!
I had a DM who kept naming NPCs William. He had no idea he was doing it, but we thought it was funny that we met so many Williams. Many years later, researching the Middle Ages, i found that William was one of the top five popular names in Middle Ages England, and HALF of all men were named John, William, Hugh, Richard, and Roger. It was why they invented last names. So really, it was realistic to meet a bunch of guys named William.
I love these old AD&D reviews! For me they are super nostalgic. I would love for you to do more of them: S1, S3, S4, I3,I4, I5, G1,G2,G3,D1,D2,D3&Q1. (you can see my era)
I’m glad somebody brought up dying on the first adventure. I crit one of my new players within an hour, and they died. He stuck around and has a blast with us to this day.
I have to be “that guy” to disagree with your criticisms on this one. The skeletal design of this module was intentional as it was with Keep on the Borderlands and several other modules from this era. The whole point is to provide a framework for the DM to add their own plot hooks, npcs, and customizations. Over the past 40 years, this module has probably been run millions of times and it’s likely that every time, the adventure was completely different every time due to the lack of spoon fed plot hooks (there are certainly plot elements that are meant to be fleshed out by the DM with their own ideas). Case in point, as you were describing some of the modifications you made to run this, it sounds like it turned into a great adventure for your players which is exactly what GG intended.
So you believe that listing the location tags as long descriptions rather that easy-to-recognize tags such as "Inn" or "Traders" was better? Or that that the note about bogus holy water didn't need to be placed in the description of the location selling the bogus holy water? And you feel that giving near zero information about the temple and its history for the NPCs to share, followed by 6 years of nothing, was the best path? Interesting. I fully admit that the module deserves praise for what it did. Historically, it has its importance. It was the first of the town-based adventures and served as a rite of passage for countless players. Yet, the adventures that immediately followed it (specifically Secret of Bone Hill and Against The Cult of the Reptile God) expanded on that model and added details making them easier for DMs to find information quickly and added rumors and details to sew plot hooks. I see that as a step forward rather than a step back. As a module intended for Novice players it doesn't feel designed for a novice DM. In 1979 there's were't that many seasoned DMs. And adding those details would only help the new DMs out (possibly why later modules did just that).
Seth Skorkowsky T1 has been a favorite of mine for decades for the reasons Jeremy listed (and a ton nostalgia) but your criticisms are well deserved. 'My' Hommlet really didn't mature until its third or fourth incarnation because of the disjointed aspect of the writing as presented. It was great when Gary and TSR developed and maintained a standard template of sorts for their material and I think B2 Keep on the Borderlands was a much better example of what a novice DM should be presented with as an example of a settlement. T1 required a bit more experience in order to be useful without being overwhelmed by the open concept.
Seth Skorkowsky Sure, I agree with some of your points and criticisms here, but not what I believe is your main thesis; correct me if I’m wrong but I’m hearing “VoH paved the way for other adventures, but is not a good adventure and bit over rated.” I agree with you about the location tags; that’s annoying as hell. As far as the Temple and time between VoH and ToEE, that doesn’t really have anything to do specifically with whether this module was good or not. This module is designed to detail the Village and the Moat House (I believe that I read somewhere that the delay had a lot to do with the internal politics of TSR at the time.) I don’t agree that there are no plot hooks, they’re just not spoon fed to you the way they are in modern adventures. It’s up to the DM to ask themselves, why are cult spies running the trading post?, what is Otis’ motivation for feigning drunkenness?, what are the dudes in the Welcome Wench up to? I’ve run this adventure many times for several different groups and have changed the answer to those questions multiple times to keep it fresh for me as well as the players - you can’t do that with most other adventures and that’s what makes this one great. That’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it!
T1 is a classic case of what happens when someone intensely familiar with the material doesn't take into account that the reader doesn't have that same bedrock of intimate knowledge. I'm preparing to run T1 for the first time and see the amount of work it takes to draw out the "circles within circles" that Gygax said existed. Given the material as it is--you get from Hommlet to the Moathouse--how? Why? As you say... Essentially, it has to involve a few facts that the DM spins into whole cloth. I am glad for what T1 is, but it needed a bit more polish. B2 was a better module for a starting DM, and it would have been nice to have had even as scanty a structure as the rumors provided there gave. The other thing-that is sorely lacking--and what I had to do with B2--is make it a living environment. There is no situational template for friendly, neutral and adversary activity nor a regional map that allows for player activity within the area. There's no route for the baddies in the Moathouse to execute their predations, and therefore no sandbox within which the players might come across the Moathouse, or do anything other than meet a rather brutal array of adversaries in situ after having been more or less told where to go because there's no other real way suggested. For these reasons, I'm making sure that the party is at least 2nd level before hitting the downstairs, and they have a reason for being there other than random treasure seeking: The Waldgraf of Ostverk, hearing tales of a growing evil, and still stinging from having not put it down more than ten years ago, has been told in no uncertain terms by the elves of Celene that this is his task--do not fail it--and he is sending the adventurers to figure it out. This places the adventurers in a good spot to enter Hommlet from the south as the module suggests with its iconic Trampier illustration and also sets them in a legitimate social position vis a vis the Verbobonc-aligned heavies in town but also not perfectly in synch. As for what follows...with the Temple...well...perhaps N1 is a better follow up with Nulb and Orlane mashed together...than the bloated slog that is TOEE.
great video! actually gave me tons of ideas how to link lost mines of phandelver to princes of the apocalypse which appear to be the latest installments of T1 and T2
I set this up over a few different adventures; the players being lured there on the promise of one job, that falls through, so now what do they do? I prepped the town well, gave them regulars that they could interact with, gave the group a safe base to return to, and they were closer to the 3rd/4th level by the time they got into it. Old school AD&D is all about DM prep, I learnt a lot about Project Management because of AD&D. For novice players, but not novice DMs; the N series is for new players and DM; my favourite module series is U1-3. I like your take on it, well done.
Good Review. Have had this module for over 30 years. However haven’t run it in years. Gonna try to run the 5th Ed adaptation. Thanks for reminding me of all the gaps that I fill as a DM. I usually do anyway. I think this module has a lot of great potential for more experienced DM’s. Thanks for the DM tips. 😊
I think you nailed it Seth on every aspect, great job! For me, what drew me in was the art work as a selling point, specially that front cover with the Ghouls. It also opened my eyes as a youngster that hey, you /could/ make a Halfling two handed weapon fighter. Not every Halfling /has/ to be a Thief. I have always ran with that ever since.
Temple of Elemental Evil is updated to "Princes of the Apocalypse" for 5e. But I don't think they included Hommlet, unless some of the quests in Red Larch are modified from it.
Enjoy your content- I'm putting together the trilogy "The Isles of dread" with your suggestion in the "Isle" video- Saltmarsh > Bone Hill > The Isle of dread, but I'm putting all three adventures take place on a series of islands in my own world and with different plots and situations, so all 3 will be on islands. Sosaltmarsh on 1 and bone hill on another, and if the take the ship they can use it to get to the other towns and get to the Isle of dread. In the process now of writing it up in module format.
Hey Seth, any chance you would do a video on combining modules? You mentioned running The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh with Bone Hill as a background, and I'd be curious to see your process and how you'd set that up as a DM. Would you include the hooks from both modules in a sandbox for the players, or follow some kind of sequence? How would you handle working the key NPC's from the one into the other? I imagine it would be easier with something like Saltmarsh and Bone Hill, since the village of Saltmarsh isn't actually in the module, but what about mixing something like Bone Hill and Against the Cult of the Reptile God?
I died in my first adventure in January 1982 and managed to get up and try again too! I do not remember if Hommlet was my first adventure, but I definitely played that before the summer of that year. :D
I played this one but it wasn't my first. It was probably the fourth or fifth introductory module I played. I was a little underwhelmed by this classic which was intended as a lead in to the Temple of Elemental Evil mega dungeon. Unfortunately that module hadn't been released when we played this one. I forgot that the battle over the temple was only ten years before the PC's arrive. We never learned anything about the temple while on this adventure. No hooks. Yeah we did stumble around the town, doing not much. We did enjoy the dungeon but Im not sure how we got there. I think in town we interacted with the workers in the tent city who were working on the wizards tower. Love Cult of the Reptile God.
One of the things I loved about the old D&D modules was how much was left out; they give a good framework upon which to craft your own stories. I like to think of the old modules as springboards to learning how to eventually craft your own stories and campaigns with the odd random module for use when you just need something relatively quick when you didn't have enough time between game sessions to work on something completely original. Not saying your complaints aren't valid concerning certain aspects of this module, it really isn't incredibly friendly to new DM's who aren't used to coming up with things on the fly or having to do the aforementioned pre-game prep work to make the story truly memorable; there are definitely better introductory modules in that regard.
I can remember running this when it first came out. I home brewed the lot. Your review of this as half-done is fair and reasonable. Truth then is truth now. “WTF were you thinking?” I felt the same way when I read the 5E “introductory” adventure “Death House” “WTF were you thinking?!?!”
I think one of my favorite ever “first experiences” I’ve ever seen was with a friend of mine. We were playing a rules-lite homebrew thing and the party was trying to rescue a kidnapped Oracle-Fairy, an important figure in the culture fairies that inhabited the forest near their town. They managed to sneak into the Bandit Chief’s tent and found the fairy in a magical birdcage. While they were looking for a clue or a key to get her out, this character found a scroll of fire storm. So during the escape sequence later once the Oracle Fairy was freed, she tried to use the scroll to blow herself (and as many bandits as possible) up while the rest of the party made it to safety. A real heroic sacrifice. She failed the roll and the other characters had to rescue her. It was a blast and since then this player has always been down for another game.
I have the original monochrome cover,the updated cover,and two(2) copies of the super module all in good to mint condition(thank you very much).I've also read the novel(I would put it at .....fair).Great tutorial video by the way.
My first DM experience was the heroes had chosen Hommlet to reconnect after taking the winter off from adventuring because it was equidistant from the heroes' home towns. But they found the village held captive by mercenaries who had secured its stores and supplies for a rebellious noble to feed his army of five hundred men.
As a gamemaster, I have learned not to use modules, because even with all preparation I do not feel the adventure and thus I lack in my DMing of it. However, I value them very much for the inspiration they can give me, for ideas, for NPCs and many more things. Depending on the system/world the reading might even be necessary to understand the developments taking place there. I did do one thing you mentioned here as well and did it several times. I took a module and actually rewrote it to a massive extent and then used my version.
Neat trivia: fantasy classic Deed of Paksenarrion by Elisabeth Moon has a section in the middle book based on Hommlet, but renamed to Brewersbridge. Including the local dungeoncrawl and the evil cleric. It also has some named village characters with a lot of personality and if anybody wants to run this module they could very possibly steal some of Moons stuff, seeing as she stole some stuff from the module to begin with. Fair is fair. Also, Deed of Paks kicks ass and everybody should read it.
0:28 I tried playing Troika's Temple of Elemental Evil video game, but I do not like radial menus. Sorry, I am not a Time Lord. I cannot think in circles. :-P
I died on my first adventure too XD i fought a small bear that was cought in a castle as a bard and got him to 0 hp... He had his endurence ability and killed me before he died
My first two characters died in their first combats on the night my brother introduced me and my best friend to AD&D and roleplaying. 😆😆😆 I was hooked. That must have been 1979!
We ran this as a 5th ed conversion just to try it out. We quickly found out how brutal poison is in 5th. Just one of 15 deaths in the temple of elemental evil.
Overall, I think you are trying to give a honest/fair review of the Village of Hommlet. I believe you also recognize that much of what is designed in modern times is built off of the foundation from this work. I struggle with one thing. Everyone expects plot hooks to "draw" the characters into the story. I get that and you stated why would the "heroes" go to an old abandoned moat house? There is a difference between being a hero and becoming a hero. I feel that my characters "should" begin as adventurers that morph into heroes. In other words, the expectation should be that adventurers would be interested in adventuring and exploring what old history lies at the moat house or what relics might still be there. Plot hooks are option and appreciated, but not the only option. The adventurers, traveling through Hommlet could simply stop at the tavern to quench their thirst and ask "Mr. Innkeeper, what adventure lies nearby? Or...maybe they hear a bard-ish tune talking about Hommlet which conveniently enough mentions its long forgotten points of interest. Thanks for reviewing it and your thoughts.
I am shocked at how totally right you are about this module. My DM was tired to being the only gamemaster and would only continue his campaign if he also got to play in a campaign as well (not unreasonable). Long story short, it was decided I would DM & the VIllage of Homlett was shoved into my hands. Since there were no adventure hooks or anything, (after skimming over the module) I did flounder a bit at first, but fortunately it honed my talent & tendency for 'improvisational Dungeon Mastering'.
One of my favorite modules ever and... I had no idea the trader sells fake holy water. I had to have read that passage 20 times and never caught that. How much I like it is that, having not looked at it in half a decade, I thought something you said was fishy then checked - Trading Post is actually listed as... Trading Post (Area 13) under Detailed Buildings. That's in my copy of T1-4. In my copy of T1 - original printing - It's on page 10 under the bold heading TRADERS' ESTABLISHMENT. The only reason I love this module so much is that it teaches you how to DM along with teaching the players how to play. I agree with what you're saying in response to this, it is ENTIRELY by accident, but basically a DM has to name townspeople, then ascertain motivations some have with others (as SOME motivations are outlined but not many), then build hooks. I was sad you didn't mention the subtext that Hommlet is essentially a nature-worshipping druid town that is being taken over by a new religion, that of Saint Cuthbert. Almost every townsperson has their allegiance listed as if that matters but there's never ANYTHING done with this. It's up to a novice DM to shine that particular gem. The beauty in the module is what is _missing_, not as much what is _there_. And to me, it makes the module better than ones that spell things out for the DM more. You're a novice GM and given a bunch of Legos, and forced to come up with not responses to the player's interactions with the module but even large pieces of the module itself. I have never had a group I ran for go to the moathouse. They never seem to ask about nearby ruins, and basically it never comes up. Also I once ran adventures in Hommlet for the better part of a year with nobody ever heating toward the ToEE. The biggest part of that adventure was rooting out the traitorous townspeople, meeting folks, then the party getting into trouble as it is wont to do. The party immediately despised Rufus and Byrne, and the party's Mage even managed to steal Byrne's spellbook. One of the first adventures I ever played in was ToEE. The DM had Hommlet's interaction be exactly one session, mostly so we could pick up Elmo on our way to the temple. TPK on session 2 as we broke in through the hole in the guard tower in the back of the ToEE with a bunch of level 1 characters. It was PAINFUL. Lastly, I also disagree with the notion that Lubash was not meant to be interacted with. He has a name and is under orders. He isn't a mindless shambling horror or angered wild animal - he's as sentient as any other humanoid and therefore can be reasoned with. He could even become a decent ally. Gygax expected Goblins. Orcs, Ogres, and anything else that was sentient and humanoid to be able to have reactions beyond "KILL DA WABBIT! KILL DA WABBIT! KILL DA WABBIT!" He was just bad at explaining this in modules, though technically Lubash is working with humans already when the party meets him. They could easily get him to switch sides for the offering of some shiny glass beads and the hindquarters of a goat. Anyway, pretty good video as always. You never know what somebody is going to take away from that module.
Considering the ogre has a name and has human captives, perhaps you could have Lubash’s kinda story hook is that he is “hired” by the cult to capture sacrifices or at least guard the place that they are being held. Lubash would most likely be paid in food or shiny trinkets that the brute finds interesting.
My first D&D adventure was 3E's Sunless Citadel, my character (a halfling rogue the DM made for me) got knocked out while fighting the boss, so when the rest of the party found a pit they wanted to see how deep it was so they tossed me.
*A part of me says that the village of hommlet was rushed out .* *Also note Gygax actually liked playing his monsters as if they had depth ( as if people ) .*
Running the Goodman Games Original Adventures Incarnated Village of Hommlet at the moment. It's been a blast, but I've really fleshed out the hooks at the start. 9 hours of game play in, and they are finally getting to the moat house. You are definitely right though, Against the cult of the reptile god is much better done! Still, looking forward to the confrontation with Larath.
sometimes with these classics that come before someone’s time (like this one for me) it’s hard to see why it’s considered quite so special but I can understand that’s because it’s special because of it being a trail blazer as opposed for being the best example of the genre it trail blazed
6 years between books? I knew D&D inspired Game of Thrones, but I didn't know it inspired the release schedule.
I died in the Caves of Chaos, an hour into my first session. I was 11. I turned 49 this month and I'm still playing.
In my very first game, I was playing a first-level character with 1hp. I was killed by a 0th level farm girl with a sling. I loved it and think about that moment a lot, even 30 years later.
That is a story I'd love to hear more about!
@@AndyCandyZeroSugar Maybe I'll do a video on my channel about that. I still remember it and it cemented my love for AD&D.
@@jasonshortt7 - I guess she caught your eye?
.. with a sling bullet.
Wtf would you be stuck with that?
@@jonathanduplantis1403probably a wizard, they rolled d4 for health. No CON modifiers either.
You can't build Hommlet without breaking some legs.
😒🤨😆😂🤣
boo
I did say that you need to break a lot of legs, whole fucking god damn lot of legs, in order to build it, there would be fuck ton of assassin otherwise
I am sure Gary would have liked this pun
Clever
Died in your first campaign? My first character died in not only my first game, not only the first battle, but in the first ROUND of the first combat! The GM running it used a critical hit and fumble house rule. My character, a 1st level cleric, lost initiative and a kobold critical hit him in the first round. Boom. Dead. I'm turning 60 this year and still play D&D a couple times a year.
emdotambient I had a new player come to one of my games once. He was there only 15 minutes before his PC died. I felt really bad... 😬
Well...I learned important lessons from that experience. As a player I learned to not get too attached to my characters! As a GM I learned that playing characters should always be exceptional characters, a cut above the common riffraff...Especially if you you're going to use fumble and critical charts. The game I was in used the straight-from-the-book character generation method: 3d6 per attribute and then you build a character off that. Which means you will, on average, only generate average stats characters, which is not survivable in the long run. So I, and most of my GM friends, have switched to various methods of character gen that allows players to get above average characters and to be able to conceptualize the kind of character they want to build before dice rolls. For example, a common method we used was: roll 4d6 for every attribute and ignore the lowest roll. Do that 4 times and take the one you like of those 4. And/or allow the player to flip-flop the dice roll for 2 attributes. If your best set of rolls came up with STR 17 and INT 8 and you really want to play a MU ... flip those rolls. Trying, of course, not to build TOO overpowered characters. It really should be all about the fun, not making due with whatever numbers RNGesus gives you.
emdotambient Yeah, I agree that PCs should be a cut above the rest. I've found that 4d6 drop the lowest, place in any order, has a good chance of getting some nice stats.
Very cool to meet and read the words of an older geek! What was it like growing up in the early days of Tabletop Gaming, if I may ask?
@@emdotambient This is why I think the best way to make characters is the point buy system that came out in 3.5. Every PC character is equal, everyone gets the stats they want to make their character go, and if they do min-max, there are consequences for that. It also meant that you could have a viable character with 14s, even a caster class. Now you can play a Cleric of a War God and have decent physical stats or a charismatic Wizard who uses a sword (coughGandalfcough).
"The back is just a big ass hole without even a screen door blocking it..." Priceless. I literally spit out my drink!
The thing about the 10th-level assassin is that it doesn't necessarily show up immediately (if it does at all). The group could be a few levels higher by the time it catches up to them. Heck, by the time it does, the party could be its level if they have been off in the wilderness exploring ancient ruins and dungeons and not in civilization where the assassin can track their comings and goings. It all depends upon the way the campaign develops.
The Village of Hommlet is a prime example of an early D&D adventure: poor layout, editing, and obviously the writers were still learning as to what works when making a module (including layout and editing). But, I do agree that it really needs the GM to do a bit of work prepping it when it really didn't need to be that way.
I not only died my first adventure, I died in my first encounter! This just sunk the hooks in deeper... I HAD to understand this game! :D
I remember that 6 year gap so well. A friend of mine who DM'd a number of us in The Village of Hommlet kept wondering what was taking so long but by the time the Temple came out we were miles apart in different states. :/
My first adventure didn't just end in my character's death, but a TPK... and mission success.
It was the 3.0 red box intro, where you're trying to rescue a unicorn that's been captured by a bunch of goblins. Due to poor tactics and several lousy rolls, everyone but my dwarf fighter fell to the giant spider at the end. The dwarf had been poisoned by the spider's bite, but he managed to strike the final blow, then cut the unicorn's bonds... and then succumbed to the poison despite his dwarven resilience. The unicorn eventually woke up and looked sadly at the poor dead adventurers, but walked free at last.
That was my first adventure too, my Sorcerer lived and my brother's cleric too. My dad DM'd it and killed my friend and sister's pc's
About dying on your very first adventure:
About 18 years ago I went to our rpg-club the first time. Young, adventurous and eager to play me some D&D or DSA or Shadowrun...
Alas, although the club had about 30 members at that time, the only rpg-tables available were already full, so I stood there a bit lost in this large backhall of the restaurant the club met.
Then some guys walked up and said: Hey - we don't play rpg tonight - but if you want, you can join our Babylon 5 Wars (tabletop wargaming with lots of lead-spaceships).
Yeah - what could I tell... I went down in history as the worst Admiral the Grand Centauri Empire ever enlisted. I did not only loose my ships, they were obliberated, shot to many many small pieces without ever standing a chance. Due to bad dice and foremost an utter lack of tactical skill compared with dangerous half-knowledge and overestemating my chances...
Somehow, however, the flagship managed to escape on the last 3 hitpoints (bridge, damaged engines, and one hapless Centauri soldier firing out of some hull-breach, of whom we had plenty, with his sidearm).
So it had all the ingredents of a 'never-again'-experience, but It just made so damn much fun :D.
The strangers who invited me on their table are now among my dearest friends and we share lots and lots of actual rpg-experiences together :D
Key to DM's losing should stay fun, not just a "you died sorry"
My first adventure was the Keep on the Borderlands. I died too, and couldn't get enough of it. My dad ran it for me, my brother and sister, and our neighbor. We probably ran 10 more groups through the Caves of Chaos over the years, because I was poor, lived out in the middle of nowhere, and had to buy my own stuff. I sure didn't quit though. Here I am nearly 40 years later, still playing.
I love your classic D&D module reviews. Thanks Seth!
I also died my 1st adventure. Very first session in fact.
Kept playing.
#keepPlaying
Jason I onboarded a new player a few weeks ago, and he died in the quick solo one shot I ran for him. Tried to take on about 30 orcs all by himself. 😁 It was lots of fun though!
Me too Brother!
I needed my fix of Seth. Thanks Seth. You the plug.
This was a great review, I’m currently started running ShadowDark using cursed scroll 1. I’m thinking I’m gonna place this nearby!
I ran the Temple of Elemental Evil in college. The PCs were exploring the town, and I asked where they wanted to go next. One player said, "Well, I guess we should go to the Moathouse." I said, "What moathouse?", to which, all the other players said, "Yeah. What moathouse?" He had read the module about six months prior. He was asked not to take part, not only because he read it, but because he tried to cover up that he had.
Gygax’s writing style for adventures was always background heavy, skeletal things intended to be customized for the campaign. Lots of folks, never caught on, which is why they get a pretty bad reputation. The same with the dungeon crawl, if the DM wasn’t as inventive as Gary, or the players not as crafty as Ernie and co., it wouldn’t turn out well. It was only when I had this slap me in the face that I really started getting into the plot, rather than treating the game as a tactical/ problem solving exercise
This is actually how the haunting for call of cthulhu is meant to be run as well: improvised on instead of run stock
Getting close to 100K! Well deserved, great channel!
One thing that I've learned that pushes people away from dnd forever is playing their first session with a very toxic group.
Truth. Having a great group will keep players having fun and coming back even when sessions go sideways and end in PC death. If everyone is laughing and having fun, then the game becomes about just playing the game regardless of how it goes. If the group is toxic, then everyone NEEDS the adventure to go perfectly in order for them to have fun, and even then they still might not.
Yep.
Or being in a group having 2 brothers, one of which is DM and the other brother is master at pushing his buttons and knowing how to get his way.
Agreed Turnt, my first group was too big and unwieldy for our DM to manage with ease
Doing anything for the first time in life with toxic people is not a lot of fun. Dnd, fishing, biking.....
So we have to infer that what you suggest is that there is a relation “”dnd=probable toxic group”....
You should maybe explain this nonsense further
Regards!!
This adventure is an excellent example of why I always retype premade adventures. Most modules need some extra customization and allow a little leeway with that area. But some (like this one) leave TOO MUCH open for customization.
the Moathouse was my first game! I was the last one standing when ghouls levelled our party, and I saved us with a roll of either 16 or 18, felling the last one and dragging us all out of the dungeon to rest and heal. Amazing!
Also: I loved you "the rats were earlier, I lost the use of my arm, and yadda yadda yadda, I died." Thanks, Elaine!
Totally Agree. In my years of playing AD&D from 1980 up to 1985 my best times in commercial modules were Tomb of the Lizard King and Secret of Bone Hill.
Great review. Very accurate assessment if T-1. Back in the early days of D&D this was my template on what a town should be like, so most of my villages resembled Hommlet or The Keep On the Birderlands.
I did that too, but all mine looked near identical to Restinford from Secret of Bone Hill.
Sven Helgrim the birderlands sounds terrifying
I think you are doing a great job of modeling storytelling for the hobby. My experience of 25 years has shown me that there is a pervasive attitude out there that published Adventures should only be run "as is" because "balance." In reality that is just an excuse for not knowing how to make published Adventures better.
And yet many modules tell you specifically to change things to suit your game. To not run it “as is” but to make it yours.
I love seeing Jack in his D&D getup, it's just so classic! I think my favourite Jack moment was in that costume in the Ravenloft review when he realised vampires might be involved :P
I think Dweebles would be better in d & d
Great review, and I love your tips for fleshing it out.
Well let me put everything on hold, there's a new Seth Skorkowsky video! Love your D&D stuff!
7:23 - The current D&D starter set adventure, The Lost Mine of Phandelver, starts out nearly point for point as you suggest, here.
I am a solo player and I more or less randomly picked up this module. I couldn't really make sense of it, I am grateful for this video that hopefully made the thing playable for me.
I've used the village(with a few changes) in games as a base town for the pc's.
Man, I love your videos. Your reviews are so useful and fun. You and Matt Colville are my go-to TH-camrs for DMing. Wish you had more reviews of modern adventures though.
Nicely done, as always. I own both Hommlett and Temple of Elemental Evil but never got around to running either one. I especially love your take on the fact that your character died and you continued to want to play. More death is what every game needs!
Eventually I'll do a video about game journals. Every game (except total 1-shots) that we've played for the last 19 years has been chronicled as we play. One player is in charge of The Journal. At the end of the year we have a Journal Reading Party where we all get together, bring spouses or significant others who want to experience ultra-nerdy, and read the year's journal and laugh and reminisce over the awesome and hilarious events that occurred over the last year. When we get to a PC death or a very significant NPC death, we toast to the fallen. The result is that when we have a PC die in a game we often say "They're just making sure we have enough toasts as the Journal Party in December."
Very cool. I've been documenting all my games since 1991 with the newer journals being quite long as I record the game sessions (since about 07) and try to actually get dialogue down. Many of them are up online and I'm getting even more on my patreon now. I used to read out loud to my friends sometimes and they loved it. I think it's important to record game sessions in some form, personally. Too many great stories are lost forever.
I don’t think character death is necessarily a problem, it’s how you die that matters - providing its memorable & has plot significance then I find most players are Ok with it (even newbies)
I think as long as they can tell they either had a reasonable chance to have succeeded or that the death was avoidable, but their actions led to it (that part can be trickier). For example, in modern/scifi I never have the super sniper shoot the PCs as the opening shot. They either miss, but usually blow away an NPC as the announcement "SNIPER!". Then the PCs can all hit the deck and try to close the distance or flee, knowing that a single shot from this bastard is likely going to kill them. Those become intense and fun. But if I opened the combat with a PC getting killed with zero warning, then the players would all understandably be pissed as hell.
Seth Skorkowsky yes we have to remember that we’re playing a game and games are supposed to be fun :). Sure assassins might not play fair IRL but that doesn’t make for a compelling story
KayleeBrowncoat Agreed. I've jad 2 TPKs in my groups in the last several months. One was tons of fun, and the players were laughing all the way to the grave. The other was a little more grim, but still fun. 😁
why should it be significant or have plot significance... no dm plans for their players to lose a character...
i want the good ol dnd where your characters had a very high likely hood of dying.
@@elgatochurro then you're just there to win D&D, not a fun D&D, and most grognard would rather do the latter over the former
Love these campaign review videos!
Good review. It's funny, I agree with all your criticisms, but this is still one of my favorites. Perhaps it's fondness for an old flame (bought it when it was brand new in '79), but I love Hommlet. Good suggestions on how to use it, btw, and great recommendations for substitute adventures. Never thought to merge Bone Hill and Saltmarsh, must steal that one day.
Part of why "first adventure death turns off new players" might just be that in modern D&D, character creation takes a *lot* longer and dying is quite a bit harder, so dying with both of those things on your first adventure feels bad in a way that dying early on in earlier editions didn't, and dying later on in a 5e campaign doesn't.
This is great stuff. I’d love for you to do a review of the actually Temple of Elemental Evil module from 1985.
Oh my god. I'm running temple of Elemental evil right now. Hommlet is their current base of operations. I love this adventure so much. That said, you do bring up good points about not being for novice gms. I took a lot of inspiration from the Temple of Elemental Evil PC game for character names/personalities side quests and plot hooks. Elmo is by far one of my players' favorites. The group is currently on Dungeon Level 2 of the temple trying to deal with the various elemental cults without getting killed themselves.
One of the greatest starter modules ever made...
I am loving these vintage module reviews! I have several of the ones reviewed, but some have been in storage that I didn't know much about, so these videos are extremely helpful in sorting out the most promising ones to dust off and use. It is great to get a second opinion, as I have heard some folks praise Hommlet, yet bash Bone Hill. But with your full and articulate analyses, I see the bigger picture and potential for using these. Thanks so much! I have gotten great ideas here.
Another great video, Seth!
The druid grove in the middle of the village always struck me as odd, but this is a great module to leverage if you want to make a generic "town near some small ruins" adventure in a pinch. You just change a few details to reuse it, or you can use it as a template to make your own from scratch. It's super helpful for new or first-time DMs to see how basic exploration adventures are set up.
Hommlet sounds a lot like that one Shakespeare character...
I think his name was Macbeth
Dude, what? What do you mean Macbeth? Are you joking or do you actually not realize that Hommlet sounds exactly like
Romeo
@@toprak3479 Dude, it starts with an H, not M or R! I'd say it's more like
Henry the 5th
This "joke" has either gone right over my head or you all really are this dumb.
Hommlet obviously sounds like Horatio.
Like others have noted, your reviews of the classic modules are great! I'd love to see you do more. The Keep on the Borderlands... The Tomb of Horrors... so many great old school modules for you to do, but so little time. LOL
The PC game did the whole intro to Hommlet quite good imho. Based on Your alignment there was a small opening vignette that gave them a reason to come to Hommlet and meet the first person, like Elves asked them to deliver something to a local Elf or You have to deliver the news of a certain death to the head of the church and similar ones...
Similarly the player gets a plothook to go to the moathouse by getting the quest to find out where a band of local bandits operates from
I would highly recommend reading Elizabeth Moon's The Deed of Paksenarrion. A trilogy (also in omnibus form) during which the title character goes to Hommlet (under a different name, but the story was based on an earlier D&D game she was part of) in the second book and deals with the Moathouse. In her version, the bandits were under a compulsion to remain and become bandits.
I've run the module numerous times. The last time, a couple of years ago, the PCs did talk to Lugash. Well, the really high charisma character did. Well enough that they didn't fight him. In fact, he actually helped them fight the Ghouls because they knocked on his door after leading them there and he thought they were attacking him! Good times!
I loved those books, and used it influenced my gaming in the 90's immensely!
Paksenarrion - best ever paladin role model!
Skorkowsky. Great name man! Great review also of this classic that brings back so many memories for me
I would like to see someone do a history of D&D modules/adventures. Like how they have changed for better or worse over time.
I had a DM who kept naming NPCs William. He had no idea he was doing it, but we thought it was funny that we met so many Williams. Many years later, researching the Middle Ages, i found that William was one of the top five popular names in Middle Ages England, and HALF of all men were named John, William, Hugh, Richard, and Roger. It was why they invented last names. So really, it was realistic to meet a bunch of guys named William.
Burne, Rufus and Ahlissa and Elmo are the PCs of the playtest characters (the latter two are Elissa and Luke Gygax's characters)
please review more adventures ive been looking for good old ADND reviews and you do it the best.
The video game did a lot of these things, adding lots of plothooks, and giving alignment appropriate reasons for the party to go to the town.
I love these old AD&D reviews! For me they are super nostalgic. I would love for you to do more of them: S1, S3, S4, I3,I4, I5, G1,G2,G3,D1,D2,D3&Q1. (you can see my era)
I’m glad somebody brought up dying on the first adventure. I crit one of my new players within an hour, and they died. He stuck around and has a blast with us to this day.
Yay! Your first module! And you wore your waylin yutani shirt! :3
I had so much fun with the video game as a kid. I don't think I ever made it past the first level of the titular Temple but I loved it.
I have to be “that guy” to disagree with your criticisms on this one. The skeletal design of this module was intentional as it was with Keep on the Borderlands and several other modules from this era. The whole point is to provide a framework for the DM to add their own plot hooks, npcs, and customizations. Over the past 40 years, this module has probably been run millions of times and it’s likely that every time, the adventure was completely different every time due to the lack of spoon fed plot hooks (there are certainly plot elements that are meant to be fleshed out by the DM with their own ideas). Case in point, as you were describing some of the modifications you made to run this, it sounds like it turned into a great adventure for your players which is exactly what GG intended.
So you believe that listing the location tags as long descriptions rather that easy-to-recognize tags such as "Inn" or "Traders" was better? Or that that the note about bogus holy water didn't need to be placed in the description of the location selling the bogus holy water? And you feel that giving near zero information about the temple and its history for the NPCs to share, followed by 6 years of nothing, was the best path? Interesting.
I fully admit that the module deserves praise for what it did. Historically, it has its importance. It was the first of the town-based adventures and served as a rite of passage for countless players. Yet, the adventures that immediately followed it (specifically Secret of Bone Hill and Against The Cult of the Reptile God) expanded on that model and added details making them easier for DMs to find information quickly and added rumors and details to sew plot hooks. I see that as a step forward rather than a step back.
As a module intended for Novice players it doesn't feel designed for a novice DM. In 1979 there's were't that many seasoned DMs. And adding those details would only help the new DMs out (possibly why later modules did just that).
Seth Skorkowsky T1 has been a favorite of mine for decades for the reasons Jeremy listed (and a ton nostalgia) but your criticisms are well deserved. 'My' Hommlet really didn't mature until its third or fourth incarnation because of the disjointed aspect of the writing as presented. It was great when Gary and TSR developed and maintained a standard template of sorts for their material and I think B2 Keep on the Borderlands was a much better example of what a novice DM should be presented with as an example of a settlement.
T1 required a bit more experience in order to be useful without being overwhelmed by the open concept.
Seth Skorkowsky Sure, I agree with some of your points and criticisms here, but not what I believe is your main thesis; correct me if I’m wrong but I’m hearing “VoH paved the way for other adventures, but is not a good adventure and bit over rated.” I agree with you about the location tags; that’s annoying as hell. As far as the Temple and time between VoH and ToEE, that doesn’t really have anything to do specifically with whether this module was good or not. This module is designed to detail the Village and the Moat House (I believe that I read somewhere that the delay had a lot to do with the internal politics of TSR at the time.) I don’t agree that there are no plot hooks, they’re just not spoon fed to you the way they are in modern adventures. It’s up to the DM to ask themselves, why are cult spies running the trading post?, what is Otis’ motivation for feigning drunkenness?, what are the dudes in the Welcome Wench up to? I’ve run this adventure many times for several different groups and have changed the answer to those questions multiple times to keep it fresh for me as well as the players - you can’t do that with most other adventures and that’s what makes this one great. That’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it!
Darren P I do agree that maybe is better for DMs with some experience than brand new DMs, but still a great adventure.
T1 is a classic case of what happens when someone intensely familiar with the material doesn't take into account that the reader doesn't have that same bedrock of intimate knowledge. I'm preparing to run T1 for the first time and see the amount of work it takes to draw out the "circles within circles" that Gygax said existed. Given the material as it is--you get from Hommlet to the Moathouse--how? Why? As you say... Essentially, it has to involve a few facts that the DM spins into whole cloth.
I am glad for what T1 is, but it needed a bit more polish. B2 was a better module for a starting DM, and it would have been nice to have had even as scanty a structure as the rumors provided there gave. The other thing-that is sorely lacking--and what I had to do with B2--is make it a living environment. There is no situational template for friendly, neutral and adversary activity nor a regional map that allows for player activity within the area. There's no route for the baddies in the Moathouse to execute their predations, and therefore no sandbox within which the players might come across the Moathouse, or do anything other than meet a rather brutal array of adversaries in situ after having been more or less told where to go because there's no other real way suggested.
For these reasons, I'm making sure that the party is at least 2nd level before hitting the downstairs, and they have a reason for being there other than random treasure seeking: The Waldgraf of Ostverk, hearing tales of a growing evil, and still stinging from having not put it down more than ten years ago, has been told in no uncertain terms by the elves of Celene that this is his task--do not fail it--and he is sending the adventurers to figure it out. This places the adventurers in a good spot to enter Hommlet from the south as the module suggests with its iconic Trampier illustration and also sets them in a legitimate social position vis a vis the Verbobonc-aligned heavies in town but also not perfectly in synch.
As for what follows...with the Temple...well...perhaps N1 is a better follow up with Nulb and Orlane mashed together...than the bloated slog that is TOEE.
Great video Seth . T1 was a great mod to play when i was a kid
great video! actually gave me tons of ideas how to link lost mines of phandelver to princes of the apocalypse which appear to be the latest installments of T1 and T2
These videos are just comfortable. Thank you
"And now, everyone in the village is named Bob" still gets a laugh out of me.
I enjoy all of Seth Skorkowsky videos
Getting less than 5k in a couple hours for a channel of this quality makes me really sad
The Original Doodle all we can do is lovingly shill the hell out of the channel.
I set this up over a few different adventures; the players being lured there on the promise of one job, that falls through, so now what do they do? I prepped the town well, gave them regulars that they could interact with, gave the group a safe base to return to, and they were closer to the 3rd/4th level by the time they got into it.
Old school AD&D is all about DM prep, I learnt a lot about Project Management because of AD&D.
For novice players, but not novice DMs; the N series is for new players and DM; my favourite module series is U1-3. I like your take on it, well done.
Good Review. Have had this module for over 30 years. However haven’t run it in years. Gonna try to run the 5th Ed adaptation. Thanks for reminding me of all the gaps that I fill as a DM. I usually do anyway. I think this module has a lot of great potential for more experienced DM’s. Thanks for the DM tips. 😊
Can't watch the whole thing because of spoilers but I will be playing this in the near future now.
Just ordered 3 modules, Swamplight, The isle of dread, and Empires of the sands. Would love a review before playing.
I think you nailed it Seth on every aspect, great job! For me, what drew me in was the art work as a selling point, specially that front cover with the Ghouls. It also opened my eyes as a youngster that hey, you /could/ make a Halfling two handed weapon fighter. Not every Halfling /has/ to be a Thief. I have always ran with that ever since.
Temple of Elemental Evil is updated to "Princes of the Apocalypse" for 5e. But I don't think they included Hommlet, unless some of the quests in Red Larch are modified from it.
Enjoy your content- I'm putting together the trilogy "The Isles of dread" with your suggestion in the "Isle" video- Saltmarsh > Bone Hill > The Isle of dread, but I'm putting all three adventures take place on a series of islands in my own world and with different plots and situations, so all 3 will be on islands. Sosaltmarsh on 1 and bone hill on another, and if the take the ship they can use it to get to the other towns and get to the Isle of dread. In the process now of writing it up in module format.
You can always have them find the tattered map that then sends them off to All That Glitters, a seriously underappreciated gem of an adventure.
Hey Seth, any chance you would do a video on combining modules? You mentioned running The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh with Bone Hill as a background, and I'd be curious to see your process and how you'd set that up as a DM. Would you include the hooks from both modules in a sandbox for the players, or follow some kind of sequence? How would you handle working the key NPC's from the one into the other? I imagine it would be easier with something like Saltmarsh and Bone Hill, since the village of Saltmarsh isn't actually in the module, but what about mixing something like Bone Hill and Against the Cult of the Reptile God?
I died in my first adventure in January 1982 and managed to get up and try again too! I do not remember if Hommlet was my first adventure, but I definitely played that before the summer of that year. :D
I played this one but it wasn't my first. It was probably the fourth or fifth introductory module I played. I was a little underwhelmed by this classic which was intended as a lead in to the Temple of Elemental Evil mega dungeon. Unfortunately that module hadn't been released when we played this one.
I forgot that the battle over the temple was only ten years before the PC's arrive. We never learned anything about the temple while on this adventure.
No hooks.
Yeah we did stumble around the town, doing not much. We did enjoy the dungeon but Im not sure how we got there.
I think in town we interacted with the workers in the tent city who were working on the wizards tower.
Love Cult of the Reptile God.
Hommlet still holds up today in 5e as a starting town and initially setting for any homebrew.
One of the things I loved about the old D&D modules was how much was left out; they give a good framework upon which to craft your own stories. I like to think of the old modules as springboards to learning how to eventually craft your own stories and campaigns with the odd random module for use when you just need something relatively quick when you didn't have enough time between game sessions to work on something completely original. Not saying your complaints aren't valid concerning certain aspects of this module, it really isn't incredibly friendly to new DM's who aren't used to coming up with things on the fly or having to do the aforementioned pre-game prep work to make the story truly memorable; there are definitely better introductory modules in that regard.
This reminds of me Greyhawk: Temple of Elemental evil which was set in Hommlet. It's a forgotten CRPG gem
I can remember running this when it first came out. I home brewed the lot. Your review of this as half-done is fair and reasonable.
Truth then is truth now. “WTF were you thinking?”
I felt the same way when I read the 5E “introductory” adventure “Death House”
“WTF were you thinking?!?!”
The Saltmarsh series! Loved them. I challenge anyone to find an aquatic Trilogy anywhere else! Aquatic Elves, Sahaughin, Lizardfilk... awesome!
I was first introduced to D&D by an upper classman in high school who bought the box set containing the B1 In Search of the Unknown starter module...
I think one of my favorite ever “first experiences” I’ve ever seen was with a friend of mine. We were playing a rules-lite homebrew thing and the party was trying to rescue a kidnapped Oracle-Fairy, an important figure in the culture fairies that inhabited the forest near their town. They managed to sneak into the Bandit Chief’s tent and found the fairy in a magical birdcage. While they were looking for a clue or a key to get her out, this character found a scroll of fire storm. So during the escape sequence later once the Oracle Fairy was freed, she tried to use the scroll to blow herself (and as many bandits as possible) up while the rest of the party made it to safety. A real heroic sacrifice. She failed the roll and the other characters had to rescue her.
It was a blast and since then this player has always been down for another game.
I really enjoy your channel
I have the original monochrome cover,the updated cover,and two(2) copies of the super module all in good to mint condition(thank you very much).I've also read the novel(I would put it at .....fair).Great tutorial video by the way.
My first DM experience was the heroes had chosen Hommlet to reconnect after taking the winter off from adventuring because it was equidistant from the heroes' home towns. But they found the village held captive by mercenaries who had secured its stores and supplies for a rebellious noble to feed his army of five hundred men.
As a gamemaster, I have learned not to use modules, because even with all preparation I do not feel the adventure and thus I lack in my DMing of it. However, I value them very much for the inspiration they can give me, for ideas, for NPCs and many more things.
Depending on the system/world the reading might even be necessary to understand the developments taking place there.
I did do one thing you mentioned here as well and did it several times. I took a module and actually rewrote it to a massive extent and then used my version.
Neat trivia: fantasy classic Deed of Paksenarrion by Elisabeth Moon has a section in the middle book based on Hommlet, but renamed to Brewersbridge. Including the local dungeoncrawl and the evil cleric. It also has some named village characters with a lot of personality and if anybody wants to run this module they could very possibly steal some of Moons stuff, seeing as she stole some stuff from the module to begin with. Fair is fair.
Also, Deed of Paks kicks ass and everybody should read it.
Agreed!
Love this module!
0:28 I tried playing Troika's Temple of Elemental Evil video game, but I do not like radial menus. Sorry, I am not a Time Lord. I cannot think in circles. :-P
I died on my first adventure too XD i fought a small bear that was cought in a castle as a bard and got him to 0 hp... He had his endurence ability and killed me before he died
My first two characters died in their first combats on the night my brother introduced me and my best friend to AD&D and roleplaying. 😆😆😆 I was hooked. That must have been 1979!
We ran this as a 5th ed conversion just to try it out. We quickly found out how brutal poison is in 5th. Just one of 15 deaths in the temple of elemental evil.
Overall, I think you are trying to give a honest/fair review of the Village of Hommlet. I believe you also recognize that much of what is designed in modern times is built off of the foundation from this work. I struggle with one thing. Everyone expects plot hooks to "draw" the characters into the story. I get that and you stated why would the "heroes" go to an old abandoned moat house? There is a difference between being a hero and becoming a hero. I feel that my characters "should" begin as adventurers that morph into heroes. In other words, the expectation should be that adventurers would be interested in adventuring and exploring what old history lies at the moat house or what relics might still be there. Plot hooks are option and appreciated, but not the only option. The adventurers, traveling through Hommlet could simply stop at the tavern to quench their thirst and ask "Mr. Innkeeper, what adventure lies nearby? Or...maybe they hear a bard-ish tune talking about Hommlet which conveniently enough mentions its long forgotten points of interest. Thanks for reviewing it and your thoughts.
That's so olde, it should be called "Auld Skewl".
Good stuff!
I am shocked at how totally right you are about this module.
My DM was tired to being the only gamemaster and would only continue his campaign if he also got to play in a campaign as well (not unreasonable). Long story short, it was decided I would DM & the VIllage of Homlett was shoved into my hands.
Since there were no adventure hooks or anything, (after skimming over the module) I did flounder a bit at first, but fortunately it honed my talent & tendency for 'improvisational Dungeon Mastering'.
One of my favorite modules ever and... I had no idea the trader sells fake holy water. I had to have read that passage 20 times and never caught that. How much I like it is that, having not looked at it in half a decade, I thought something you said was fishy then checked - Trading Post is actually listed as... Trading Post (Area 13) under Detailed Buildings. That's in my copy of T1-4. In my copy of T1 - original printing - It's on page 10 under the bold heading TRADERS' ESTABLISHMENT.
The only reason I love this module so much is that it teaches you how to DM along with teaching the players how to play. I agree with what you're saying in response to this, it is ENTIRELY by accident, but basically a DM has to name townspeople, then ascertain motivations some have with others (as SOME motivations are outlined but not many), then build hooks. I was sad you didn't mention the subtext that Hommlet is essentially a nature-worshipping druid town that is being taken over by a new religion, that of Saint Cuthbert. Almost every townsperson has their allegiance listed as if that matters but there's never ANYTHING done with this. It's up to a novice DM to shine that particular gem. The beauty in the module is what is _missing_, not as much what is _there_.
And to me, it makes the module better than ones that spell things out for the DM more. You're a novice GM and given a bunch of Legos, and forced to come up with not responses to the player's interactions with the module but even large pieces of the module itself.
I have never had a group I ran for go to the moathouse. They never seem to ask about nearby ruins, and basically it never comes up. Also I once ran adventures in Hommlet for the better part of a year with nobody ever heating toward the ToEE. The biggest part of that adventure was rooting out the traitorous townspeople, meeting folks, then the party getting into trouble as it is wont to do. The party immediately despised Rufus and Byrne, and the party's Mage even managed to steal Byrne's spellbook.
One of the first adventures I ever played in was ToEE. The DM had Hommlet's interaction be exactly one session, mostly so we could pick up Elmo on our way to the temple. TPK on session 2 as we broke in through the hole in the guard tower in the back of the ToEE with a bunch of level 1 characters. It was PAINFUL.
Lastly, I also disagree with the notion that Lubash was not meant to be interacted with. He has a name and is under orders. He isn't a mindless shambling horror or angered wild animal - he's as sentient as any other humanoid and therefore can be reasoned with. He could even become a decent ally. Gygax expected Goblins. Orcs, Ogres, and anything else that was sentient and humanoid to be able to have reactions beyond "KILL DA WABBIT! KILL DA WABBIT! KILL DA WABBIT!" He was just bad at explaining this in modules, though technically Lubash is working with humans already when the party meets him. They could easily get him to switch sides for the offering of some shiny glass beads and the hindquarters of a goat.
Anyway, pretty good video as always. You never know what somebody is going to take away from that module.
Considering the ogre has a name and has human captives, perhaps you could have Lubash’s kinda story hook is that he is “hired” by the cult to capture sacrifices or at least guard the place that they are being held. Lubash would most likely be paid in food or shiny trinkets that the brute finds interesting.
My first D&D adventure was 3E's Sunless Citadel, my character (a halfling rogue the DM made for me) got knocked out while fighting the boss, so when the rest of the party found a pit they wanted to see how deep it was so they tossed me.
*A part of me says that the village of hommlet was rushed out .*
*Also note Gygax actually liked playing his monsters as if they had depth ( as if people ) .*
Really enjoy your work, mate. And thanks for accepting my friend request on Facebook! :)
Running the Goodman Games Original Adventures Incarnated Village of Hommlet at the moment. It's been a blast, but I've really fleshed out the hooks at the start. 9 hours of game play in, and they are finally getting to the moat house. You are definitely right though, Against the cult of the reptile god is much better done! Still, looking forward to the confrontation with Larath.
sometimes with these classics that come before someone’s time (like this one for me) it’s hard to see why it’s considered quite so special but I can understand that’s because it’s special because of it being a trail blazer as opposed for being the best example of the genre it trail blazed
You know, I use your reviews as a shopping list for Call of Cthulhu adventures.
So do I.