Good point, as ever, Michael. Despite not being fond of it, I'm also glad it got made, showing as it did that there will always be those who believe that Doctor Who is a worthy investment.
I think had it gone to series the half human thing would have been dropped. As for the romance probably not. With it being a pilot I think the production team would have fine tuned it, but of course we'll never know. McGaan would have been on a 7 year contract which he himself stated in an interview some years back.
I never knew about the seven year contract, Michael, and am grateful for the insight. Fascinating to think how a series may have evolved over such a period. Also, given that McGann's run would have concluded the same year as the decision taken by the BBC to revive the show, I wonder if its success would have prompted them to reclaim it, and would Davies have even been involved? Cheers.
I think it's on the Dr Who at the BBC CD, volume 1 or 2 which are compilations of radio interviews and soundbites, hosted by Lis Sladen. Yes I do wonder if RTD would ever have been involved had the 7 years played out. Thank you Paul 👍
It could have worked if there had been a series, the novels of the late 90's till 2003 had some great 8th Doctor stories. If anyone hasn't read them, try The Dying Days, The Banquo Legacy or Casualties of War.
The thing that honestly bothers me most the movie: how did the Master get into the TARDIS?! I’m SO glad you raised this point! I rewatched it again and again and can’t figure out if he’s meant to have snuck in while Lee is walking around the exterior…but the camera was off Lee for a split second only, and the Master wasn’t just inside the TARDIS but was all the way on the other side of the control room. If the Master can just let himself in and out, it raises SO many questions. Can any Time Lord do so, any time, without access to the special equipment on Gallifrey? Can other beings get in and out? Does the Master have a key? Did he hypnotise the TARDIS into bending to his will? I know I should just let it go but it’s just such an irritating detail that could have been avoided by just having the Master walk in BEHIND Lee.
I'm a second Doctor fan. Don't like most of NuWho but didn't mind some of Jodie's stories. Hate Cutie's Doctor. With regards to the TV movie: it's passable as it is. But, imagine what a re-imagining a la RetroDoc built from the original footage (which no longer exists, apparently) with new voice-overs from McGan et al COULD be like?
As to the question, where does the movie belong: It's a definite classic era for me, unfortunately as Rachel and Nick suggest, segueing into the New era, but McGann will always be one of the classic Doctor's for me. After this, Davis took it, completely misunderstood it and fashioned it into what we have today.
Great choice of topic, superbly debated by all and, as ever, many fresh insights which had never previously occurred to me. Abiding thanks, Brendan and all. I love the idea of 'What would Ncuti do?', whilst remaining ever-frightened of the answers! With Doctor Who, some actors chosen for the title role have an inherent, non-verbal Doctor-related quality, able to convey, in look and demeanour alone, the requisite amount of enigmatic otherworldliness. To my mind, of the actors chosen to play the role, Troughton, Baker (Tom), McCoy, McGann, Smith and Capaldi were demonstrable of this. Whilst there may be some disagreement with the assignment of the quality to particular Doctors, I offer this view of McGann to present staunch support of him in the role, together with the opinion that his portrayal was, and continues to be, unimpeachable. Not so the TV movie, which remains the most God-awful ninety minutes of Doctor Who that, at time of transmission, had ever been presented. Despite McGann's sterling efforts, it didn't feel like a continuation of the spirit of the show, let alone a faithful restoration of it. As is often the case, essential principles were the first casualty of a need to expand and write large, a gross misjudgement, because Doctor Who works best when there are thought-provoking concepts played out on a relatively small, sometimes claustrophobic setting: a spaceship, a village, a lighthouse etc. This tonal oversight was compounded by two major clangers. The first of these was the revelation that the Doctor was half human. There can be no excuse for undermining so capriciously a narrative solidly established during any show's run, let alone that of a thirty three years old behemoth like Doctor Who, the purpose of which can only have been the same ego-driven mindset which became so manifest in the current era. The second was having him randomly kiss the companion, Grace, with nothing less than discernible eagerness, in the foreground of a literal fireworks display! Since reclaiming the helm as showrunner, Russel T Davies has nullified irrevocably the goodwill and good opinion he so deservedly accrued when first bringing back the show and, if even tatters currently remain of his legacy, they are more than he deserves. Nevertheless, back in 2005, the majority of his tweaks to the format were borne from a desire to ensure that the revival was in keeping with popular televisual tastes, thus giving it a more than reasonable chance of longevity. I also feel that his decision to eschew a regeneration scene was sensible, yet would hesitate to sanction the removal of McCoy from the TV movie. For my part, several reservations notwithstanding, I felt there was a general sense of compromise between the assuagement of loyal fans and the garnering of new ones. Also, his revival, whilst contriving the impression of stories having a global consequence, still managed to retain that small scale feeling so contributary to effective tension. Although a little more 'fast and loose' than Davies with regard to canon, Moffat adopted a similar, restrained mindset in his approach. Regarding further amorous interactions between the lead character and others, putative examples of transgressions being Rose, Martha, River Song, Amy, and Yasmine, it was more an example of these characters being enamoured with the uniqueness of the Doctor, as opposed to physical, sensual attraction; aside from Gaiman's terminally stupid 'tight skirt' description of Clara by a soliloquising eleventh Doctor, I can recall no instances of this behaviour being evident in the other direction. It's very possible that there exists a link between the half human Doctor idea being inserted into lore and Chibnal feeling justified in his own ham-fisted amendments, albeit the latter was immeasurably more abusing of the privilege. The TV movie was distinct from both classic and new-era Doctor Who, more of a cul-de-sac from which the show had to re-emerge than something easing transition between the two. The creative decisions made by the writer did not inspire further such abuse of canon, or amorous interactions between Doctor and companions, in those of either showrunner between 2005-17, both of whom opted for limited modification of the classic template. Conversely, Chibnall's era was hallmarked by a catalogue of lore infringements far worse than those of 1996, applied with childlike, unthinking fervour and without a semblance of context. Most bizarrely of all, Davies' appetite for the practice, absent in his first show-running tenure, proved to be all-too apparent in his second, the ramifications of which continue to extend the length of eventual rest required, as opposed to extending the healthy life, of televised Doctor Who. Thanks again for these essential debates and discussions, guys. All the best for now. Paul
Yes that was quite an exhausting one. What aspect would you like us to debate about remembrance of the Daleks? You make some great points. Once we finished the stream we all shared the further points we’d wished we’d made- but you can’t indulge for hours and hours can you !
@@noblerees1 I greatly appreciate being asked, but much prefer you guys to make the debating decision, being never less than surprised and impressed by the choices! Thanks again for a great stream.
Great show. Many thanks, Brendan, Gary, Rachael, Nick and Michelle. I like elements of the TV Movie - the cast, mainly - but the story is a pretty empty affair, looking good, but a lot of rushing around, a magical solution, a canon change, and a kiss or two. In the chat I said it was standalone. Thinking about it now, though, no, it's more New Who. The 8th Doctor was far better served in the BF audios and the DWM comic strip. And I prefer that he had that run of stories than was rehired for Series One in the place of Christopher Eccleston. The Night of the Doctor gave us a glimpse of what might have been, but I doubt that the reality of a spin-off series made at any point of the modern era could ever match our imaginations.
Yes we agree on it matching nuwho more so. It left me a little bored after about 40 mins of truth be known - my interest was in the regeneration context but the storyline itself did not grab me
I don't know. The TV movie had some nice bits, but in the end I don't think it pleased anybody. Certainly not us fans over here who found it a bit lost in its Americanised format. That's where it really lost out. The first bit was Doctor Who, but the rest could have been any number of American shows at the time. But then American TV was changing, and I would have been interested to see it done a few years later.
I am a defender of Jodie Whittaker and Ncuti Gatwa I'm a defender of any actor who plays the Doctor however that being said I do not defend their showrunners for making them bad Doctors because I believe they could be really good Doctors if it wasn't done by Chibnall or RTD, I would had written the Doctor differently by making him/her an eccentric alien scientist who doesn't show human emotions other than anger I would also get the Doctor off planet earth more often and have him travelling through the cosmos. Just on Michelle and Nick's point on the relationships between the Doctor and companion you see for me that's where the problem started by making them a romantic duo or having them too heavily relationship focused I'd rather it was just friends like it was in Classic Who having the companion help the Doctor and just being the companion I wish they would stop making them super important like Bad Wolf girl, DoctorDonna, Girl Who Waited, Impossible Girl I hated that I just want a regular normal companion but also one that's not from modern day earth which has been the same old trend for nearly 20 years and I'm also tired of companions and their families I just want to see the Doctor fight monsters and Daleks in time and space I'm not interested in loved dovey relationships or any of that soap opera nonsense I just want Dr. Who. The TV Movie was ok McGann was the best thing in it the half human and the kiss and how americanised it is was the only aspects I didn't like it is however ashame that Paul McGann never had a series but the other hand as he kept reminding us had he done so we wouldn't have Eccleston, Tennant, Smith, Capaldi etc etc etc.
I'm not a fan of the romantic relationships between the Doctor and their companions. I prefer companions who are older and more mature, capable of holding their own against the Doctor and surviving without needing constant supervision. Essentially, a companion similar to Donna Noble. Despite the kiss with Grace, I think that with good, balanced writing, she could have become a Donna-like companion. I also agree I don't want companions to have some greater purpose like the whole Doctor/Donna arc. I really like Donna but that part I would have happily done without 🤘🤘
If lore endlessly changes at a rapid pace it really starts to no longer be lore rather a confused dichotomoy or contradictory mess. Everything needs some sort of framing devices and boundaries to hold the substance together.
I liked Paul McGann as the doctor and I loved his HG Wells style TARDIS interior, but the movie itself was rather weak. Its story is superficial and action focused with random romance which seems very much like RTD episodes.
I think it was perhaps riffing on HG Wells. I think if you tried explaining it to an American exec of the time that was probably something they could identify with. It would go some way to explaining the look of the thing.
I'm not a gay man. But I think RTD has made it worse for gay people. It never bothered me about gay people. He thinks everybody should be gay. Let it drop. That also includes Tennant. Another great show Brendan.
![[안방1열 풀캠4K] 베이비몬스터 'DRIP' (BABYMONSTER FullCam)│@SBS Inkigayo 241110](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/AQ4RIghEvUs/mqdefault.jpg)
Thank you to everyone on the sense-sational panel! The TV movie has it's issues, but it worked for me and i'm glad it got made 👍
Oh yes I am glad it was made
Good point, as ever, Michael. Despite not being fond of it, I'm also glad it got made, showing as it did that there will always be those who believe that Doctor Who is a worthy investment.
Pfft. If it makes you good ohh rahh
I agree, Brendan, McCoy's best ever performance as the Doctor.
Yes I could see all that potential
I think had it gone to series the half human thing would have been dropped. As for the romance probably not. With it being a pilot I think the production team would have fine tuned it, but of course we'll never know. McGaan would have been on a 7 year contract which he himself stated in an interview some years back.
A great miss - a mcgann series
I never knew about the seven year contract, Michael, and am grateful for the insight. Fascinating to think how a series may have evolved over such a period. Also, given that McGann's run would have concluded the same year as the decision taken by the BBC to revive the show, I wonder if its success would have prompted them to reclaim it, and would Davies have even been involved? Cheers.
I think it's on the Dr Who at the BBC CD, volume 1 or 2 which are compilations of radio interviews and soundbites, hosted by Lis Sladen. Yes I do wonder if RTD would ever have been involved had the 7 years played out. Thank you Paul 👍
@@michaelwebster8666 Many thanks.
It could have worked if there had been a series, the novels of the late 90's till 2003 had some great 8th Doctor stories. If anyone hasn't read them, try The Dying Days, The Banquo Legacy or Casualties of War.
Thanks folks
The thing that honestly bothers me most the movie: how did the Master get into the TARDIS?! I’m SO glad you raised this point! I rewatched it again and again and can’t figure out if he’s meant to have snuck in while Lee is walking around the exterior…but the camera was off Lee for a split second only, and the Master wasn’t just inside the TARDIS but was all the way on the other side of the control room.
If the Master can just let himself in and out, it raises SO many questions. Can any Time Lord do so, any time, without access to the special equipment on Gallifrey? Can other beings get in and out? Does the Master have a key? Did he hypnotise the TARDIS into bending to his will? I know I should just let it go but it’s just such an irritating detail that could have been avoided by just having the Master walk in BEHIND Lee.
Yes that was honestly my problem. I had to say it. How can the master easily get in? It’s these little things…
I'm a second Doctor fan. Don't like most of NuWho but didn't mind some of Jodie's stories. Hate Cutie's Doctor.
With regards to the TV movie: it's passable as it is. But, imagine what a re-imagining a la RetroDoc built from the original footage (which no longer exists, apparently) with new voice-overs from McGan et al COULD be like?
Very true. We may try out a writers room of what we could actually do instead
As to the question, where does the movie belong: It's a definite classic era for me, unfortunately as Rachel and Nick suggest, segueing into the New era, but McGann will always be one of the classic Doctor's for me. After this, Davis took it, completely misunderstood it and fashioned it into what we have today.
Yes I see your point though I feel it was so unrecognisable as dr who - romance, kisses, stunts - nuwho
Great choice of topic, superbly debated by all and, as ever, many fresh insights which had never previously occurred to me. Abiding thanks, Brendan and all.
I love the idea of 'What would Ncuti do?', whilst remaining ever-frightened of the answers!
With Doctor Who, some actors chosen for the title role have an inherent, non-verbal Doctor-related quality, able to convey, in look and demeanour alone, the requisite amount of enigmatic otherworldliness.
To my mind, of the actors chosen to play the role, Troughton, Baker (Tom), McCoy, McGann, Smith and Capaldi were demonstrable of this. Whilst there may be some disagreement with the assignment of the quality to particular Doctors, I offer this view of McGann to present staunch support of him in the role, together with the opinion that his portrayal was, and continues to be, unimpeachable.
Not so the TV movie, which remains the most God-awful ninety minutes of Doctor Who that, at time of transmission, had ever been presented.
Despite McGann's sterling efforts, it didn't feel like a continuation of the spirit of the show, let alone a faithful restoration of it. As is often the case, essential principles were the first casualty of a need to expand and write large, a gross misjudgement, because Doctor Who works best when there are thought-provoking concepts played out on a relatively small, sometimes claustrophobic setting: a spaceship, a village, a lighthouse etc. This tonal oversight was compounded by two major clangers.
The first of these was the revelation that the Doctor was half human. There can be no excuse for undermining so capriciously a narrative solidly established during any show's run, let alone that of a thirty three years old behemoth like Doctor Who, the purpose of which can only have been the same ego-driven mindset which became so manifest in the current era.
The second was having him randomly kiss the companion, Grace, with nothing less than discernible eagerness, in the foreground of a literal fireworks display!
Since reclaiming the helm as showrunner, Russel T Davies has nullified irrevocably the goodwill and good opinion he so deservedly accrued when first bringing back the show and, if even tatters currently remain of his legacy, they are more than he deserves.
Nevertheless, back in 2005, the majority of his tweaks to the format were borne from a desire to ensure that the revival was in keeping with popular televisual tastes, thus giving it a more than reasonable chance of longevity.
I also feel that his decision to eschew a regeneration scene was sensible, yet would hesitate to sanction the removal of McCoy from the TV movie. For my part, several reservations notwithstanding, I felt there was a general sense of compromise between the assuagement of loyal fans and the garnering of new ones. Also, his revival, whilst contriving the impression of stories having a global consequence, still managed to retain that small scale feeling so contributary to effective tension.
Although a little more 'fast and loose' than Davies with regard to canon, Moffat adopted a similar, restrained mindset in his approach.
Regarding further amorous interactions between the lead character and others, putative examples of transgressions being Rose, Martha, River Song, Amy, and Yasmine, it was more an example of these characters being enamoured with the uniqueness of the Doctor, as opposed to physical, sensual attraction; aside from Gaiman's terminally stupid 'tight skirt' description of Clara by a soliloquising eleventh Doctor, I can recall no instances of this behaviour being evident in the other direction.
It's very possible that there exists a link between the half human Doctor idea being inserted into lore and Chibnal feeling justified in his own ham-fisted amendments, albeit the latter was immeasurably more abusing of the privilege.
The TV movie was distinct from both classic and new-era Doctor Who, more of a cul-de-sac from which the show had to re-emerge than something easing transition between the two. The creative decisions made by the writer did not inspire further such abuse of canon, or amorous interactions between Doctor and companions, in those of either showrunner between 2005-17, both of whom opted for limited modification of the classic template.
Conversely, Chibnall's era was hallmarked by a catalogue of lore infringements far worse than those of 1996, applied with childlike, unthinking fervour and without a semblance of context.
Most bizarrely of all, Davies' appetite for the practice, absent in his first show-running tenure, proved to be all-too apparent in his second, the ramifications of which continue to extend the length of eventual rest required, as opposed to extending the healthy life, of televised Doctor Who.
Thanks again for these essential debates and discussions, guys.
All the best for now.
Paul
Yes that was quite an exhausting one. What aspect would you like us to debate about remembrance of the Daleks? You make some great points. Once we finished the stream we all shared the further points we’d wished we’d made- but you can’t indulge for hours and hours can you !
@@noblerees1 I greatly appreciate being asked, but much prefer you guys to make the debating decision, being never less than surprised and impressed by the choices! Thanks again for a great stream.
And the irony of the death is real.
11 years ago. Gee we'll all be deceased soon.
Great show. Many thanks, Brendan, Gary, Rachael, Nick and Michelle.
I like elements of the TV Movie - the cast, mainly - but the story is a pretty empty affair, looking good, but a lot of rushing around, a magical solution, a canon change, and a kiss or two. In the chat I said it was standalone. Thinking about it now, though, no, it's more New Who.
The 8th Doctor was far better served in the BF audios and the DWM comic strip. And I prefer that he had that run of stories than was rehired for Series One in the place of Christopher Eccleston.
The Night of the Doctor gave us a glimpse of what might have been, but I doubt that the reality of a spin-off series made at any point of the modern era could ever match our imaginations.
Yes we agree on it matching nuwho more so. It left me a little bored after about 40 mins of truth be known - my interest was in the regeneration context but the storyline itself did not grab me
I don't know. The TV movie had some nice bits, but in the end I don't think it pleased anybody. Certainly not us fans over here who found it a bit lost in its Americanised format. That's where it really lost out. The first bit was Doctor Who, but the rest could have been any number of American shows at the time. But then American TV was changing, and I would have been interested to see it done a few years later.
Yes that seems to be the moment I lost interest when it became an American drama after the dr who element
I am a defender of Jodie Whittaker and Ncuti Gatwa I'm a defender of any actor who plays the Doctor however that being said I do not defend their showrunners for making them bad Doctors because I believe they could be really good Doctors if it wasn't done by Chibnall or RTD, I would had written the Doctor differently by making him/her an eccentric alien scientist who doesn't show human emotions other than anger I would also get the Doctor off planet earth more often and have him travelling through the cosmos.
Just on Michelle and Nick's point on the relationships between the Doctor and companion you see for me that's where the problem started by making them a romantic duo or having them too heavily relationship focused I'd rather it was just friends like it was in Classic Who having the companion help the Doctor and just being the companion I wish they would stop making them super important like Bad Wolf girl, DoctorDonna, Girl Who Waited, Impossible Girl I hated that I just want a regular normal companion but also one that's not from modern day earth which has been the same old trend for nearly 20 years and I'm also tired of companions and their families I just want to see the Doctor fight monsters and Daleks in time and space I'm not interested in loved dovey relationships or any of that soap opera nonsense I just want Dr. Who.
The TV Movie was ok McGann was the best thing in it the half human and the kiss and how americanised it is was the only aspects I didn't like it is however ashame that Paul McGann never had a series but the other hand as he kept reminding us had he done so we wouldn't have Eccleston, Tennant, Smith, Capaldi etc etc etc.
I'm not a fan of the romantic relationships between the Doctor and their companions. I prefer companions who are older and more mature, capable of holding their own against the Doctor and surviving without needing constant supervision. Essentially, a companion similar to Donna Noble. Despite the kiss with Grace, I think that with good, balanced writing, she could have become a Donna-like companion. I also agree I don't want companions to have some greater purpose like the whole Doctor/Donna arc. I really like Donna but that part I would have happily done without 🤘🤘
If lore endlessly changes at a rapid pace it really starts to no longer be lore rather a confused dichotomoy or contradictory mess. Everything needs some sort of framing devices and boundaries to hold the substance together.
Totally agreed
I liked Paul McGann as the doctor and I loved his HG Wells style TARDIS interior, but the movie itself was rather weak. Its story is superficial and action focused with random romance which seems very much like RTD episodes.
I can’t disagree
I think it was perhaps riffing on HG Wells. I think if you tried explaining it to an American exec of the time that was probably something they could identify with. It would go some way to explaining the look of the thing.
I'm not a gay man. But I think RTD has made it worse for gay people. It never bothered me about gay people. He thinks everybody should be gay. Let it drop. That also includes Tennant. Another great show Brendan.
Didn't like the TV Movie much at the time, even less so now. And yes it is the start of the New Who rot.
Yes I felt my opinion strengthening and becoming more negative as our discussion continued