Thanks for this interesting conversation. When I play this piece I always imagine it is a Sogdian drinking song. The title include 胡(which means Sogdia) and 酒 (a symbol of Sogdians, according to Laurence Picken). There were around 10 types of music, 十部技 during that period. And almost all of them are melodies from foreign countries. One is from Korea and many of others came from Persia and India brought to China by Sogdians. I don't think this is Han music. Unfortunately we lost Tang music. No one knows how it was played. I enjoy music on the Silk Road that was brought from the West by Sogdians. I am happy that the professor of Musicology at Shanghai Conservatory of Music, Zhao Weiping, likes my interpretation. We worked together on Tang music last year. I feel very honored by his acceptance. This picture with two ensembles is from Xi'an
@@licheong The Tang quxiang pipa (4-stringed pipa with bent-back pegbox) had four frets, the first placed a whole step above the nut, then each of the remaining three frets being placed a half step above the other, with the fourth fret producing a pitch a perfect fourth above the open string. The sheng (mouth organ) was tuned more or less Pythagorean (with absolutely pure fifths), and the di (transverse flute) and bili (double reed pipe) having equidistantly spaced finger holes, producing a distinctive intonation that did not always match that of the fixed-pitch instruments, a trait that can be heard in recordings of traditional Chinese music made through the 1930s. For the latter two instruments, the performance practice involved a lot of microtonal shading, and tone bending was extensively used by the zheng (bridge zither).
@@licheong Check the video description for this video for more information about this piece: v=FE4292_4D0s Of all the c. 200 Tang pieces surviving in Sino-Japanese tablatures, I think this is one of the ones that sound most typically Chinese, so it is possible that it is actually a piece *about* Sogdians rather than by them. But I already posted exactly this information earlier in this same conversation, 1 year ago.
Very nice interpretation, as usual. The interplay between the hands and use of improvised counterpoint makes your versions very lively and enjoyable to listen to. Your use of ornamentation such as the inverted mordents that are so typical of this style of music is also quite good. Sogdiana (or Sogdia), called Suguda (𐎿𐎢𐎦𐎢𐎭) in Old Persian and Sute (粟特) in Chinese, was an important ancient civilization of Eastern Iranian people from Central Asia, their territory based in eastern Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, southern Kazakhstan, and western Kyrgyzstan, and including the Fergana Valley as well as the cities of Samarkand, Bukhara, Khujand, Panjikent, and Kesh (Shahrisabz). Although their language was in the Eastern Iranian subgroup of the Iranian language family, they did not live within the borders of present-day Iran, but instead had their own distinctive and well-established civilization in Central Asia, so calling them "mainly Iranian people" is confusing and a bit misleading. The Buddhist kingdom of Kucha (located in modern-day western Xinjiang), which was the center for music and culture in Central Asia at that time, probably exerted at least as much of an influence on the musical culture of Sui and Tang Dynasty China as that of Sogdiana. The Kucheans spoke Tocharian B, a now-extinct Indo-European language that is not in the Iranian language family.
Bukhara, roodaki says in Persian oh Bukhara be live in happiness and forever, sadi says in grand mosque of kashghar saw a child asked me where are you from and l said from Shiraz asked me if I can say some poet from sadi, oh Sogdian are a distinct branch of Iranian ,and only Buddha's of bamian know the history of all beloved branches of Iranian
@@vayz7335 Bukhara one of the important cities of soghdian merchant of silk road now a days in last villages around South Tajikistan dialect (yaghnabi)near soghdi language, Bukhara turkik form of Vihar Bihar, one of many center of the temple of budhist , Scythian horse lord of central Asia, predators of soghdian and origins of many tribe ,Alaians,osetia,....one of Iranian tribe really parallel to mainland before of governments and empire mingled many times with mainland culturally and in language and one of important founder of iranian culture with Persians, medians, Elamite، arthe.... Near 5000 years before,
I wonder if this drinking song involved messages floating on a small stream. Wherever the message stopped, the person next to the stopping place had to empty a cup full of liquor. Prosit!
@@jorgitoislamico4224 you're point? So we shouldn't talk about other pp's history or ancient culture and their possible descendants because it doesn't matter especially to you?
I don't think it's certain that this particular melody was of Sogdian or Central Asian origin; of the surviving Tang yanyue melodies, this is one of the ones that sounds most typically Han Chinese to me (being more strictly pentatonic rather than heptatonic), although it sounded much more Middle Eastern in your recent ensemble performance with piri player, percussionist, and dancer. It was, however, said to have been used to accompany marionettes in the form of Sogdians that could be found in Chinese wine houses (Sogdians being famous for their love of grape wine); when the dancing puppet eventually fell down "drunk," the person it was pointing to was expected to drink a full cup of wine.
@@brainblox5629 You might want to check what you just wrote, then re-edit. The founders of the Han Dynasty were not of Turkic ethnicity, and the rulers of the Tang Dynasty were of mixed Han and Xianbei (not Shatuo) bloodline, though culturally Chinese. It isn't known whether the Xianbei spoke a Turkic or Mongolic language.
@@dbadagna They were sinicized ethnical Turks. There is no doubt about their Turkicness. Also no doubt that they founded 3 of the 5 dynasties and 1 of the 10 kingdoms. Recently saw some reading examples of Shatuo Turkic and could understand a significant part. That wouldn't be possible if they were Mongolians.
@@brainblox5629 From Wikipedia: "The Shatuo (also transcribed as Sha-t'o, Sanskrit Sart) were a Turkic tribe that heavily influenced northern Chinese politics from the late ninth century through the tenth century. They are noted for founding three, Later Tang, Later Jin, and Later Han, of the five dynasties and one, Northern Han, of the ten kingdoms during the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period. The short lived kingdoms founded by Shatuo Turks would later be conquered by the Song dynasty. After the Han Chinese conquest of Shatuo Turks, they mostly disappeared as an ethnic group." ====== The "Later Tang" (923-937) and "Later Han" (947-951) are not the same as the Han (202 BC-220 AD) or Tang (618-907) dynasties. You'd better do some more reading, and be more careful in your future comments on these matters.
@C Central Asians migrated from North East Asia and in DNA tests Central Asian is Turkic DNA, Turkic people migrated to Central Asia 2000 years ago and Iran people and even Afghanistan and Pakistan have Turkic DNA but originally they are not Turkic people
I could find the same melody (th-cam.com/video/xrkr9rIylQU/w-d-xo.html) from the Tuvan Republic as part of the ancient Hun Empire which is 700+ years older.
Thanks for the music . That was a great performance. But it is interesting to me that the music does not resemble iranian music. Do you know the lyrics of this song?
@@ehsansar9726 no they weren't you fooool. Sogdians never lived in Iran, nor they claimed to be iranians. The label "iranian" is a recent thing which tries to group people with a common ancestry. Stop stealing everything
@@pjshr5313 shut up! Many Iranian ethnics never lived in todays borders of Iran. But they were definitely Iranians both linguistically and ethnically such as Sogdians and Scythians. I guess you are a turk who want to superficially make a history for turkic presence in middle Asia , Iran and caucasus
Very patronizing song against my ancestors; just because we imported wine for China we get called PUPPETS by the Chinese buyers !!!! We didn't spin and whirl because we were drunk. BTW: most Chinese nowadays have no idea what the authentic Sogdian Whirl was. It was always on one foot. You can't do that when you're drunk!!
So many pieces of the phenomenon you talk about there’s really no one person or place to blame so just enjoy the spirit if not the image you know. I’m sure the people listening didn’t find ot an unfriendly image
Thanks for this interesting conversation. When I play this piece I always imagine it is a Sogdian drinking song. The title include 胡(which means Sogdia) and 酒 (a symbol of Sogdians, according to Laurence Picken). There were around 10 types of music, 十部技 during that period. And almost all of them are melodies from foreign countries. One is from Korea and many of others came from Persia and India brought to China by Sogdians. I don't think this is Han music. Unfortunately we lost Tang music. No one knows how it was played. I enjoy music on the Silk Road that was brought from the West by Sogdians. I am happy that the professor of Musicology at Shanghai Conservatory of Music, Zhao Weiping, likes my interpretation. We worked together on Tang music last year. I feel very honored by his acceptance.
This picture with two ensembles is from Xi'an
@@licheong The Tang quxiang pipa (4-stringed pipa with bent-back pegbox) had four frets, the first placed a whole step above the nut, then each of the remaining three frets being placed a half step above the other, with the fourth fret producing a pitch a perfect fourth above the open string. The sheng (mouth organ) was tuned more or less Pythagorean (with absolutely pure fifths), and the di (transverse flute) and bili (double reed pipe) having equidistantly spaced finger holes, producing a distinctive intonation that did not always match that of the fixed-pitch instruments, a trait that can be heard in recordings of traditional Chinese music made through the 1930s. For the latter two instruments, the performance practice involved a lot of microtonal shading, and tone bending was extensively used by the zheng (bridge zither).
@@licheong Check the video description for this video for more information about this piece:
v=FE4292_4D0s
Of all the c. 200 Tang pieces surviving in Sino-Japanese tablatures, I think this is one of the ones that sound most typically Chinese, so it is possible that it is actually a piece *about* Sogdians rather than by them. But I already posted exactly this information earlier in this same conversation, 1 year ago.
Very nice interpretation, as usual. The interplay between the hands and use of improvised counterpoint makes your versions very lively and enjoyable to listen to. Your use of ornamentation such as the inverted mordents that are so typical of this style of music is also quite good.
Sogdiana (or Sogdia), called Suguda (𐎿𐎢𐎦𐎢𐎭) in Old Persian and Sute (粟特) in Chinese, was an important ancient civilization of Eastern Iranian people from Central Asia, their territory based in eastern Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, southern Kazakhstan, and western Kyrgyzstan, and including the Fergana Valley as well as the cities of Samarkand, Bukhara, Khujand, Panjikent, and Kesh (Shahrisabz). Although their language was in the Eastern Iranian subgroup of the Iranian language family, they did not live within the borders of present-day Iran, but instead had their own distinctive and well-established civilization in Central Asia, so calling them "mainly Iranian people" is confusing and a bit misleading.
The Buddhist kingdom of Kucha (located in modern-day western Xinjiang), which was the center for music and culture in Central Asia at that time, probably exerted at least as much of an influence on the musical culture of Sui and Tang Dynasty China as that of Sogdiana. The Kucheans spoke Tocharian B, a now-extinct Indo-European language that is not in the Iranian language family.
Bukhara, roodaki says in Persian oh Bukhara be live in happiness and forever, sadi says in grand mosque of kashghar saw a child asked me where are you from and l said from Shiraz asked me if I can say some poet from sadi, oh Sogdian are a distinct branch of Iranian ,and only Buddha's of bamian know the history of all beloved branches of Iranian
@@kazemashoori2479 Bukhara Tajik city
@@vayz7335 Bukhara one of the important cities of soghdian merchant of silk road now a days in last villages around South Tajikistan dialect (yaghnabi)near soghdi language, Bukhara turkik form of Vihar Bihar, one of many center of the temple of budhist , Scythian horse lord of central Asia, predators of soghdian and origins of many tribe ,Alaians,osetia,....one of Iranian tribe really parallel to mainland before of governments and empire mingled many times with mainland culturally and in language and one of important founder of iranian culture with Persians, medians, Elamite، arthe.... Near 5000 years before,
I wonder if this drinking song involved messages floating on a small stream. Wherever the message stopped, the person next to the stopping place had to empty a cup full of liquor. Prosit!
Can you please add the provenance of the image showing two ensembles accompanying dancers?
That sounds show the origin of the wide region's musical culture. Very interesting.
Sogdian people - tajiks
Tajiks speak Persian
@@jorgitoislamico4224Before Persian, we spoke Sughdian
@@æfšyawæs And before Sogdian you spoke another language lmfao, it doesn't matter
I wonder who commented this lmao
@@jorgitoislamico4224 you're point? So we shouldn't talk about other pp's history or ancient culture and their possible descendants because it doesn't matter especially to you?
Bravo!
Fascinating!
Thank you Allan.
日本雅乐里的《酒胡子》已经由唐时的越调移至双调，而2P雅乐琵琶的演奏除了移调外，又加入了和声，速度放慢至少12倍，因此加速后还是能够听出原始旋律的。而筝、龙笛、筚篥版的没这么幸运了，除了移调，又加入大量修饰音，单纯加速是听不出来原始旋律的。另外，越调音阶应为1=D的1 2 3 4 5 6 b7，Pickens教授译谱版本却是7而不是b7。
My Irishness feels almost at home in this one!
I am so happy to hear that your Irishness feels almost at home!
I don't think it's certain that this particular melody was of Sogdian or Central Asian origin; of the surviving Tang yanyue melodies, this is one of the ones that sounds most typically Han Chinese to me (being more strictly pentatonic rather than heptatonic), although it sounded much more Middle Eastern in your recent ensemble performance with piri player, percussionist, and dancer. It was, however, said to have been used to accompany marionettes in the form of Sogdians that could be found in Chinese wine houses (Sogdians being famous for their love of grape wine); when the dancing puppet eventually fell down "drunk," the person it was pointing to was expected to drink a full cup of wine.
The Han and Tang dynasty were literally founded by the Shatuo Turks, who were friends with Sogdians like every other Turk.
@@brainblox5629 You might want to check what you just wrote, then re-edit. The founders of the Han Dynasty were not of Turkic ethnicity, and the rulers of the Tang Dynasty were of mixed Han and Xianbei (not Shatuo) bloodline, though culturally Chinese. It isn't known whether the Xianbei spoke a Turkic or Mongolic language.
@@dbadagna They were sinicized ethnical Turks. There is no doubt about their Turkicness. Also no doubt that they founded 3 of the 5 dynasties and 1 of the 10 kingdoms. Recently saw some reading examples of Shatuo Turkic and could understand a significant part. That wouldn't be possible if they were Mongolians.
@@brainblox5629 Inaccurate on many counts
@@brainblox5629 From Wikipedia:
"The Shatuo (also transcribed as Sha-t'o, Sanskrit Sart) were a Turkic tribe that heavily influenced northern Chinese politics from the late ninth century through the tenth century. They are noted for founding three, Later Tang, Later Jin, and Later Han, of the five dynasties and one, Northern Han, of the ten kingdoms during the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period. The short lived kingdoms founded by Shatuo Turks would later be conquered by the Song dynasty. After the Han Chinese conquest of Shatuo Turks, they mostly disappeared as an ethnic group."
======
The "Later Tang" (923-937) and "Later Han" (947-951) are not the same as the Han (202 BC-220 AD) or Tang (618-907) dynasties. You'd better do some more reading, and be more careful in your future comments on these matters.
请问这位女士的乐器叫是什么？
Sogdian are Iranian Peolpe
Natives of Central Asia
@C Central Asians migrated from North East Asia and in DNA tests Central Asian is Turkic DNA, Turkic people migrated to Central Asia 2000 years ago and Iran people and even Afghanistan and Pakistan have Turkic DNA but originally they are not Turkic people
@C Because Mongol and Turk later on invaded this area and therefore many of these people either killed or migrated to another places.
@C no you are completely wrong
@C native central Asians are indo Iranians.
@C Bactria and sogdia are well known Iranic civilizations and some of the Sogdians lived in China
I could find the same melody (th-cam.com/video/xrkr9rIylQU/w-d-xo.html) from the Tuvan Republic as part of the ancient Hun Empire which is 700+ years older.
Thanks for the music . That was a great performance. But it is interesting to me that the music does not resemble iranian music. Do you know the lyrics of this song?
Sogdians have nothing to do with iranians
@@pjshr5313 Soghdians were ethnically and linguistically Iranian.
@@ehsansar9726 no they weren't you fooool. Sogdians never lived in Iran, nor they claimed to be iranians. The label "iranian" is a recent thing which tries to group people with a common ancestry.
Stop stealing everything
@@pjshr5313 shut up! Many Iranian ethnics never lived in todays borders of Iran. But they were definitely Iranians both linguistically and ethnically such as Sogdians and Scythians.
I guess you are a turk who want to superficially make a history for turkic presence in middle Asia , Iran and caucasus
@@ehsansar9726 i am not Turk and you don't make any sense, lol
Very patronizing song against my ancestors; just because we imported wine for China we get called PUPPETS by the Chinese buyers !!!! We didn't spin and whirl because we were drunk. BTW: most Chinese nowadays have no idea what the authentic Sogdian Whirl was. It was always on one foot. You can't do that when you're drunk!!
So many pieces of the phenomenon you talk about there’s really no one person or place to blame so just enjoy the spirit if not the image you know. I’m sure the people listening didn’t find ot an unfriendly image
imagecloud.thepaper.cn/thepaper/image/141/395/476.jpg
I have sogdian genetic hertige R-Z2123 but I'm belong to Turkish Tribe Like Old Turkic Ashina Tribe
Ashina was a sogdian scythain tribe after all.
It means your ancestors came to Anatolia from the territory of Uzbekistan
@@richcrown1176in time was no Uzbekistan and sogdian are Tajik people
@@Soul-co7ki Sogdians are not Scythians.
@RUSHBRO0420 Sogdians are not Tajiks. Yagnobis are direct descendants of Sogdians. Tajiks are mostly Persians.