Sketching In Pen And Watercolor: Which Comes First?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ธ.ค. 2022
- When sketching in watercolor and pen, which should comes first? Should you start with ink and then put down watercolor on top, or vice versa? In this video I talk about the pro and cons of each method.
Here are the materials I'm using:
1. Hahnemuhle watercolor sketchbook
2. Document Brown Ink by DeAtramentis
3. Franklin Christoph Model 31 Omis in Antique Glass, using a #Fountain6 Pen Revolution Revolution Ultraflex nib.
4. Palette: 16-halfpan Watercolor Tin by Whiskey Painters
5. Watercolors: a mix of DaVinci and W&N
6. Brushes: Escoda Optimo and Princeton Neptune
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Thank you. Your video is very inspiring and your paintings are beautiful. I wish I had found you earlier. 🙂
My pleasure! I’m so glad you found my channel and are enjoying it.
It can also be useful to use a limited palette of earth tones that are congenial "cousins" to a black or brown ink. The result is often much stronger than if very different colors and tonalities are used. This is why the pen and wash landscapes of the Old Masters are so moving.
I'm a fan of traditional palettes and often rely on them, but black and brown work with everything, and a successful color scheme is always more a consequence of an artist's skill rather than palette choice.
That was a great video and comparison, thank you! I would love to see both paintings side by side.
Thank you! I’ll keep that in mind for future videos.
I enjoy doing watercolor first when I can, it gives my finished piece a more naturally lose feel to it, less tight and rigid. I think this is because if I ink an image first I have a tendency to want to adhere to the lines I already placed down and make the line drawing more "Complete" looking. Using watercolor first allows the image to become more of a space for which the inking can be playful and more discoveries happen due to the tonal shifts and hard edges the watercolor adds to the initial sketch. It becomes more fun picking out which areas need line work and which areas don't as well as recognizing areas that need to be punched out a bit more with dark line work.
I've been starting to do this with some of my creatures recently. Doing a rough sketch then letting lose with watercolor. Once it's dry I'll take a pen or a dip pen and go to town letting my mind find shapes that I never could have imagined creating with the initial sketch.
Anyway, this was a fun video and I enjoyed it. I'll give it a like and you a follow. :)
Thanks for your insightful comment and your subscription! I think the reason you mentioned is one of the strongest arguments for starting with watercolor first. Often when I ink first, the drawing has a "colored in" quality, and I really have to anticipate what details will be done with wash in order avoid this effect. That said, I often alternate between the two techniques more than once.
@@mkompan Yeah, I tend to go back and forth between the two as well. Plenty of times I just start drawing with my pen and that's just how I go. But I am finding more and more that I'm leaning toward very rough sketches, then watercolor and lastly ink. In the end a lot of it is simply playing and enjoying finding a process that works and adds the right style or character to the drawing for me. :)
Brown ink works so amazingly well for this scene!! I'm shocked honestly for the overall feel that was achieved
Thanks Nikita! Brown works particularly well with landscape, where you already have many brown and neutral colors.
@@mkompan I think I liked the second rendition more: somehow it looks more "painterly". I use the pen first almost exclusively since it allows me to draw without pencilling things in. And I'm not that good with watercolors! I can do some things but most of the juicy, masterful use specific to this media evades me.
Here is a question for you: it seems like a lot of stages and aspects of drawing in all sorts of media requires one thing for the best result - patience. Hatching, gradual building up of values, color etc... How do you develop it? Anything that helped you on your art journey to develop that state of mind that is so conducive to patient work? Perhaps that's a subject for a video 😂
Oh wow, this channel has taken off! Finally!
Thanks!
Just found this channel and it's wonderful.
@@user-bu9nb8wr6e I just found your comment and thank you!
Idk Mark, I feel this ink and watercolor is very successful and super fun to look at. I appreciate the very thin and faint ink lines in the background. Love this.👍🏼
Thanks. Both method work just fine. I just find it interesting how the order of things effects the final result.
I am a beginner, but I took an illustration course a couple of years ago where I was taught to paint first, ink last. Mostly because we were using non waterproof inks with very expressive marks with a Pentel brush pen, or fountain pen. I still use my Pentel brush pen to ink but have added an arsenal of other instruments to my inking, like gel pens, markers, fine liners, etc. I find that inking last suits me because it allows me to hide a multitude of mistakes I might have made in my original watercolour, which is very often sadly.
I just found your channel and enjoy your instruction and art very much by the way.
Thank you for the kind words. I think both approaches actually make the watercolor stage easier. The first because you don’t have to rely on watercolor as much, the second because you can cover mistakes.
Great demos! Thank you for the explanations! I am just getting started with plein air/urban sketching and can never decide which method to use. This helps!
My pleasure! Glad this was helpful to you.
This is way beyond my level, but I like watching you paint, beautiful!!!
Thank you!
I'm thrilled to have another tutorial from your proper, working studio especially as it not only uses some of my favourite materials but also addresses a conundrum I've struggled with. I find ink before watercolour usually works best for me as I've got the tone down first before thinking about colour but will now explore both ways. I find your explanations excellent and inspiring. Many thanks for this .
Thank you! I actually work both ways depending on the how much ink I use. If the drawing will be mostly pen with a touch of color, the ink goes first.
@@mkompan Thanks. Can I recommend the De Atrementis Grey and Urban Grey as great alternatives to brown especially for cityscapes or coastal scenes with lots of rocks ? (Although adding a drop of blue ink to the brown ink works quite well and more cheaply. )
Always enjoy your videos! Thanks!
Thank you Cherice!
Awesome tutorial. I enjoy both techniques for different reasons. But either way, i really love the combo of fountain pen and watercolor. I use Regina's watercolors. made with honey. incredible pigments. ceramic/glass mixing areas on the palettes. and DeAtramentis doc inks are my #1 go to drawing inks.
Your channel is so BossHogg. You are absolutely slaying. 👑❤️🔥
Thank you Dean! I’ve never heard of Regina’s watercolors and will have to check them out. Honey is a very old school additive to watercolor paint. Back in the day, and this dates me quite a bit, I had a set of watercolors from the Soviet Union that were honey based. The pigments weren’t great but they were very moist and easy to reconstitute. I miss them.
I see what you mean. But I love the shadows on the house in the first one. Both beautiful.
Thanks! Really, my intention was to point out the differences between the approaches and why you might choose one over the other, and not to determine which one is universally better.
Very nice comparison. I’ve noticed that broader line over the WC, and every time I thought I just didn’t let it dry well enough. But it makes sense, the ink is making its way around the pigment particles. Thank you so much for your videos, I have learned a ton from you.
Thank you! That’s a good theory for why ink spreads over watercolor, but it also might be the interaction between the ink and the binding medium in the paint. Worth looking into!
Very good. I'm a relative beginner with both pen and ink and watercolors (since the start of the pandemic), and as such I try all types of approaches to see what I like and what works for me. What I like about this video is your clear points on the pros and cons of the two approaches. I'm not experienced enough to be aware of most of these on my own (e.g., watercolors can obscure line work if lines are laid down first), but now I'll take notice. I learn a lot from your videos. Thanks so much. And, now I can link a face to your voice!
Thank you! I wasn't sure how useful this video would be, and I'm glad you learned something from it.
Great video Marc! I really like your way of explaining the creation process. Thanks for sharing it! I'll wait the full demo next year.
Thanks for your support Simon!
Oh man. Your different shades of the same colours are amazing.
Thank you!
Excellent demos. Thank you!
My pleasure!
Informative and concise.. great video! Thanks. Glad I found your post!
Thank you Kristin! I'm glad you fund my channel.
Excellent instruction! Thank you!
My pleasure!
I never thought of doing this. Well done Marc and thank you for this.
Glad to introduce you to this!
Well overdue great channel.
Thank you!
Great advice. Excellent! Thank you
You're very welcome!
Fantastic!
Thank you!
This was a beautiful demonstration. Thank you!
You're very welcome, Chris!
What an excellent and illustrative (pardon the pun) explanation of the advantages and disadvantages of going ink or watercolor first. This was super helpful for me because you articulated so well what I've experienced and couldn't put into words. I will keep experimenting on my newbie journey. Thank you!
That’s very kind of you to say! I do spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about these things, so it’s good to know it’s being appreciated.
Beautiful! Thank you… informative and so nice to watch:)!
Thanks!
Good tutorial, thank you!
You’re welcome!
very informative! thank you so much!!
You’re very welcome!
Great instructional videos. Very helpful to one getting started with ink sketching. I’ve also gotten a lot from your review videos. Thanks for sharing your talent and your teaching.
Thank you for the compliment Doug! I’m
very glad you’re enjoying both kinds of content on my channel.
Great points, I like both anyway.
Thank you!
A very interesting video. Thank you.
My pleasure!
Wow, the amount of useful information was priceless 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼. I’m a beginner and learned a lot. Thank you 🙏🏼 😊
You’re welcome! And thank you for the kind words.
🎉love this line of content. Knowing when to stop is a dodgy part of sketching. I should definitely try more often the watercolour first approach. Thank you for your hard work, truly appreciated.
Thank you! See how it works for you and report back!
@@mkompan after trying it a bit, there are two key advantages for me: 1) I can see the big shapes more easily and I can do adjustments a bit easier and 2) there is the freedom to make an interpretation of what you have in front of you in terms of values. Haven’t tried in a studio but it works wonder in plain air.
@@thekevermelho4084 glad you tried it!This kind of experimentation is very important and not enough artists do it.
Your videos are a great inspiration and motivation for me. Thank you.
My reservation about using ink after watercolor wash is the light fastness of the ink. I heard some fountain pen inks have no endurance against light and fades away very quickly. Some of those waterproof inks are more resistant against UV light than normal ink as far as I know but I am no expert on this matter honestly.
Thank you! It’s true that many fountain inks haven’t been tested for lightfastness, but you can use waterproof ink both ways, either first or over watercolor.
1. Great video, the first demo I've seen of ink over watercolor. Great result. One question: why bother with pen instead of just dark paint and a tiny brush? I bet you could get identical results.
2. Of late I have been drawing with 3-6 different colors of ink in different pens (no watercolor or brushes). I'm frustrated by the wide variety of behaviors when a new, wet line encounters an old, dry or at least drier, line. Sometimes one or both, or neither, feathers into the other. My solution is to zen out and work with whatever happens. Eventually I hope to test the chosen inks on the chosen paper with the chosen pens, to know in advance what will happen. Then I can eliminate or emphasize the feathering, ON PURPOSE.
1. Thank you! And you can of course use a thin brush for the line work, and I sometimes do. The brush pens made by Pentel and Kuretake are great for that purpose. The results are not identical however. A pen puts down a different line than a brush, and I think many people (including myself) enjoy the counterpoint between the control of the pen and looseness of watercolor
.
2. To "zen out" is a good approach, and is common to watercolor technique, where full control over the medium is impossible. Inks are even more complicated than watercolors, with their surfactants, lubricants, solvents, multiple pigments etc. I say learn to embrace the chaos inherent to the medium.
@@mkompan Good advice. I wonder if I'll take it.
As Mark said brush pens are very hard to control. Another technique immediately comes to mind is using a dip pen but I guess we all love fountain pens, don't we :D
Verry well work ❤
Thank you!
Very interesting. It would be great to have seen a side by side comparison. Thanks for a great lesson!
You're welcome! I'll do it next time I'm comparing techniques.
Hello Marc, You can't imagine how much I'm learning through your skills, patience and eloquence... highly appreciated. In regard this presentation, I'm preferring to use ink first, the reason being that if you start with the watercolors there is no way to delete any traces of pencil. Greetings from Mexico. Cheers!
Hello Jorge. Thank you for the kind words! You can erase graphite after you put water color over it, but it depends on the paper and the pencil. I find that kneaded erasers work best. Saludos desde Los Angeles.
@@mkompan Thanks for the tip Marc, I'm going to try it. Enjoy the weekend.
Great info. I'm a pen first and watercolor second kind of person, and this is frankly never my penning is far better than my watercolor painting techniques. Perhaps I should change my order for a time to get better. Very good video, earned my subscription 🤠
Thank you for the kind words, and your subscription! It’s funny how a small switch in the order in which you do things can push your work in new directions.
inspiring and good info, thanks for the video
You’re welcome!
I love tiny details but I usually put in way too many, so being able to get them all down on paper first with pen, and then obscure any I don't like with watercolor, is genuinely my favorite way to work. I've never liked the feeling of a pen drawing on dried watercolor, either.
Pen over watercolor does have a different feel to it, but I think watercoloring first let’s you figure out just where to place all those little details.
I would love to see a video about you talking exclusively about trainings to get better at fountain pen
More videos to come! In the meantime I have plenty of videos on pen technique for you to look at.
@@mkompan good to hear that I really enjoy your videos, and I'm learning a lot from it
Lovely video! I find myself switching between them. I often use ink after watercolour if my painting feels ‘undefined’… 😅
Thanks! I often will work both ways on one piece, but I think it’s a good idea to pick an approach at the beginning. Then you can always add a little of one of the other, as a touch up.
Very informative and much appreciated. I've never tried watercolor first, but I will now, although I will try not to think how much better your art is than whatever I might accomplish.
Thanks! Watercolor I pretty challenging, so be patient with it. I plan on doing many more watercolor tutorials in the future.
@@mkompan Thank you; I'll watch for them.
i just ordered a black forest with fude nib and now I am thinking I should buy a flex nib also. Very good video as always. feeling pretty inspired right now.
Glad to have inspired you! I’ve heard very good things about the Black Forest Fude. Given how wet it writes with a normal nib, it should be great with a fude nib.
Super detailed video!
My 5 cents. I feel more free doing first the watercolor and then the ink, mostly because I can control better the ink following the watercolor. The result is often more open and free.
On the other hand to have the drawing in ink is nice and allows me to decide how much color I will put in it. The result usually is more accurate and stiff.
It's interesting how the look of your work changes just by switching the order. I work both ways, and you're right, starting with watercolor tends to make the pie looser (and more colorful), starting with pen makes the drawing more accurate and more stiff.
Thanks for this. I really love sketching with ink but have found the combo with watercolour just about the perfect match for me. It's been a fun journey playing with how to combine them ...lots of imperfect final drawings but every once in a while a gem comes through. Sometimes I don't mind if the ink line bleeds into the drawing a bit as I think my general sketching style is pretty loose and relaxed (also impatient about allowing the watercolour to dry!). I do think a flex pen might change my world so I appreciate all your reviews in that regard. I always learn something new when watching your videos 🙏.
Thank you Sue! Watercolor is controlled chaos and I love how it creates all kinds of unintended effects. Working over slightly wet watercolor or putting down watercolor over ink that’s not entirely dry is a great way to exploit the chaotic nature of the medium.
Great sketches in both cases! And a very useful explanation about the subject. In fact, the best video I've seen to cover it.
You didn't expand on the possibilities of non fountain pens. It solves easily the waterproof ink problem if we use a marker or a roller.
That said, I also love sketching with my fountain pens. So, I will experiment watercolor over pencil skecth and fountain pen with non waterproof ink in the end.
Thank you Antonio. I used fine-liners for many years before getting into fountain pens and still enjoy their practicality and portability, but I'm more interested in the way a simple change the order of doing things has a tremendous effect on the final result. It's endlessly fascinating.
Is this the first time we see your face? Regardless, I am always thrilled to see a video from you. I know it is difficult to find time if you are an artist and an art professor. I am facing the same struggle too (artist - art history professor - curator)
Thank you! This is actually the second video where I’ve revealed my secret identity. I was told that it would help with audience engagement, but this remains to be seen. Glad to see that my channel is finding an educated, like minded audience. Where do you work?
💯👍
Thank you!☺️
Hello Marc! Nice video as usual! The result after the second method looks much stronger, but I feel like the first method is more achievable for the amateur artist. You have to be very confident to do the watercolor first. To me drawing with an ink is way more simpler that painting with water color. Will you continue making videos about your experiments with 3 color ink techniques? And will you make new videos about composition?
Thank you Mihail. You’re right, the first method is easier. And yes, more videos on composition and 3 color ink technique to come. I’ll be teaching significantly less next year, which will give me more time to dedicate to this channel.
Thanks for your very informative videos! So, just to confirm, I have a Pelikan 140 (brand new to me). I filled it with Platinum Carbon Black. Is that a bad thing? I also bought a bottle of De Atrementis Document Brown because I really like the effect you demonstrate. As I understand it, both these inks are waterproof. Am I looking for trouble using them in my 140? Thanks again.
You’re welcome Mike! I have a 140 and it’s one of my favorite, but I’m not an expert in their care. Platinum Carbon does have a tendency to clog your pens, even if used frequently. I’ve found that it especially builds up under the nib, so if you can’t pull the feed and nib out and give a scrubbing, you’ll eventually run into problems. Rick Propas of Penguinpens, who restores and sells vintage Pelikans would be a great person to ask. I’ll reach out to him and see what he says.
@@mkompan Hi Marc, I just bought a 140 from Rick today, and I'm interested as well in pen and watercolor, but I don't want to damage the pen with clogging by using a bad waterproof ink.
I asked him about using an iron-gall like Diamine Registrars, and he replied saying "I do not use iron gall inks, so what I am about to tell you is hearsay. My understanding is that you can safely use the Diamine as long as you do not let the ink sit in the pen unused for prolonged periods of time, meaning more than a week. But, again, I have no direct experience nor have I researched the issue in any depth. To be safe I would use a more gentle ink like Diamine Onyx or Aurora black which is very deep and true."
Would be interested to hear what he has to say if you ended up hearing anything from him.
@@sotiriospetrou1059 Thanks for that info! I actually completely forgot to contact Rick about the use of waterproof inks. I'll get to it soon!
Need to see the reference photo ....
Nice video, next time you should put your script beside or slightly behind the camera youre filming with, allowing you to keep eye contact with the viewer, and not seem distracted by something out of view.
Thanks! I’m working on being in front of the camera, so thanks for the tip.
You did fine, just something I notice people that are new to being in front of the camera do often.
Nice enough guy, but talks a little too fast. Should talk into the camera, not the monitor under the camera. Lastly, I was hoping to see the two drawings side by side. That all said, I am still glad I watched it.
Well, I’m glad you still managed to find my video worthwhile, despite my all too obvious faults. ;)
C’est stressant la minière dont vous parlez. On dirait qu’il y a du feu !
I don't mind your rude comment, but at least have the courtesy of translating it.
Désolée, mais c’est vrai. J’ai renoncé à regarder votre vidéo que je trouve intéressante à cause de ça. Quand à la courtoisie je n’en manque pas, mais la fainéantise a pris le dessus. Ne m’en voulez pas trop.
Slow your speech, please.
If you were urban sketching would you rely on the pencil sketch?
I’ll try to talk slower. :) I’m not sure what you’re asking about in the pencil stage, but the process of working on urban subjects would be exactly the same.
So you would pencil sketch, then go over in ink, then paint if urban sketching? That’s what I was wondering.