In preseason they were so glad that the simulation data correlated and they could “build on this”. It’s like they don’t understand anything about F1 anymore
What happened with Merc is it the fact half Merc team Left and went to Red Bull and William's . No wonder lewis is leaving like they don't know how to build a car anymore even The other teams they sell there engine and other parts to are doing better than them . This definitely the downwards spiral for them what goes up must come down sadly there no longer the dream team 😢
I mean if RB didn't have Newey they would be struggling too. See how people that worked at RB left to other teams (like Aston Martin) and improved their cars, but still can't get near the performance of the RB, so means they don't fully understand the concept, because the genius of Newey is what is making RB a dominant beast. Without him they would probably be where most teams are.
well not really in 2020 they had the best suspension in the grip combined with a floor that was untouched and not only 2020, all the way through 2016 to 2020 it was the floor a long wheel base and a solid suspension that did mercedes a jumo to lead
@sidharthtirkey44Mercedes were the master of having the best engine and the competition banned from developing the engines... When Redbull and Ferrari started to get closer when the crappy token system was introduced (mostly due to aero) fia decided in 2019 to decrease aero lmao and Mercedes back to big gaps again... Right now engines are frozen but they're very close to each other(except Renault, they always gonna sck)... And aero is not ban so they are allowed to catch up ...
Lol I feel like hes already doing that in his spare time. Wouldnt be surprised if he shows up one day in a wheelchair and is able to talk to the engineering gods of all those other dimensions and his mind does that thing from the hangover where he's at the casino doing all the mental math....except its F1 cars.
Their biggest problem is that they continue to declare that they've solved a problem prematurely. I remember after Spain one year they declared that they had made a breakthrough when it was actually just track specific. Same sort of thing in Brazil in 2022 that convinced them to keep the previous concept and now again after only running the new concept at Bahrain they start making massive claims. They need to be more measured imo at the very least with the media.
Yeah, they were so melodramatic - mostly coming from Wolff - and I think it's down to perceiving themselves as being the fan favorite (debatable) and just the need to control the sport. On top of that it's about reassuring shareholders with whatever they need to hear. A bit pathetic, but people see through Toto now and his constant gaslighting.
@@Ruylopez778 hamilton is a fan favorite not merc 😂. I’m excited to see how many merc fans are Ferrari fans next year lol. Cause nobody seems to like russell and toto
Things to note here. 1 - This isn't 2017-2021 AMG. This is basically an entirely different team. 2 - This *should* have been their 2022 car, so they're starting 2 years behind everyone else. 3 - Everyone had correlation issues (yes even RB) during 2022, and Ferrari was complaining about it as recently as mid-'23. This isn't a resolved issue, and it's something affecting everyone. 4 - AMG doesn't have the advantage of a nuclear bomb of an engine relative to the rest of the grid and a half a billion budget to let them build a draggy, aero inefficient car with a hilariously narrow setup window anymore. 5 - Merc takes a bit with regulation changes to really get it right, they were bad during Schumacher's time there and dominated the turbo hybrid era because everyone else was on the back foot in some worse way. Basically, this unsurprising. AMG wasn't that good, and when there was proper competition they'd just outspend them. Now that they can't, the team's sliding back to where they were prior to the TH Era.
The 2023 car should have been their 2022 car and their 2024 car should have been their 2023 car so they're effectively 1 year behind on development. Mercedes had a powrful engine in 2021 which is why they were often able to run a higher load rear wing to everyone to compensate for any lack of downforce relative to their competitors. Before 2021 tho, whilst they had a strong engine, they had an even stronger floor which was arguably their greatest asset considering how they used to be the team that managed to run the lowest rake with a long wheelbase which allowed them to gather dowforce specially through the high speed corners. I agree budget constraints could definitely be a reason for their downfall but also i think the lack of wind tunnel time to test the mass amount of parts being researched and developed is also a hindrace for them...Basically they resort to performing experiments on race weekend these days instead of conducting said experiments in CFD and the wind tunnel which basically affects the development rate and progress of parts being cleared for use and therefore resulting them to be so far behind everyone in terms of developing the car for each year.
@@NJ0711 do you mean 2020 instead of 2021? Because I am pretty sure Mercedes were hampered by the floor in 2021, and the W12 was basically just a watered down W11, except they took a bigger hit than for ex Redbull did
Point 4 is daft. Why do you guys always echo "they had an advantage in the engine development" the actual thing that made them quick was a new outlook on how to the turbo charger worked. Which allowed them to run small side pods which created better aero benefits and cooling along with better fuel efficiency, less turbo lag and a better centre of gravity compared to its rivals as everything was neat and tightly packaged. You say it Asif their block was this bullet proof over engineered masterpiece whilst everyone else had just quickly slapped a 1.6 turbo together the night before. Everyone knew about the rule change at the same time. Merc tried something and it paid off. Then later engine homologation effects came into play and that set their advantage in for the foreseeable. Similar to the Honda engine today.
@@GameOver-nm2us That's why i said in 2021, Mercedes were able to compensate their lack of downforce due to the sudden floor regulations by setting up the car with a higher load rear wing and they were able to do so because they arguably had the most powerful P.U
Mercedes won't seriously be challenging for the remainder of the current regulations. It became apparent, that their hybrid domination was maintained mainly due to an overpowered engine and RedBulls lack their of. RedBulls Chassis was always top notch but Renault held them back with an inferior enigne.
Not at all. The low rake concept proved to be superior in the last era, and RB could come up to it only because of the floor cut regulation change in '21.
Not a great take to be honest. Ferrari had the better engine in the 2018-2019 timeframe so Mercedes didn't have a PU advantage throughout that whole era. Additionally, the Merc from 2014-2016 was TOTALLY dominant (not just in terms of straight-line performance). Since the aero regulations overhaul, Mercedes have just been completely lost and what people are not full grasping is that this is NOT the same team that dominated for years. There has been extreme brain drain at Mercedes for the last several years. Hamilton choosing to leave should be seen as a harbinger of bad times to come. How long were McLaren in the cellar after Lewis left that team. I think the same thing is kind of going on with Mercedes. The team actually needs to rebuild, and I agree with the OP's assertion that they will not be particularly strong until 2026 at the earliest.
What I think is happening at Mercedes is actually there isn't much happening. They are still building decent cars, good enough to drive in the points and for podiums. The biggest change that has happened, is that with stable engine regulations (mostly), the advantage they had over others slowly diminished over 8 years. The cars they are building now aren't a lot slower or handling so much worse, but it seems like a lot, because for years they could run more downforce than others on that good enough car.
well but Lewis didn't really complain about an unstable rear end or no confidence in the car under the old regs, those cars were mostly rocksolid and predictable for the drivers which apparently these aren't.
@@speedsociety9177 Being able to add more downforce is doing exactly that. Or the other way around, not being able to add more downforce is making your car less solid and predictable.
I think it has to do with how difficult it is to design a good ground effect car with simplified suspension systems. Mercedes could spend over the cost cap and still not be fast because they don't seem to understand their problems.
@@gloveson5687This is precisely why you shouldn’t find a career in anything sport related. The game is not about just the top teams. Its about equal platform for everyone.
Tbf it's their first go at a philosophy others have run for 2 years, add in their simulation oddities as well as the seemingly unstable setup it has in regarding aero balance, and they can't get the most out of it. It's unfortunate... But thats how it is until they can sort that all out.
Hamilton said they're still running a different philosophy to "the front three teams." So, while they are figuring out a new concept, they still aren't even on the same page as the others. It's like they refuse to accept that RB got it right...
You gotta feel for Russell. Spent years at Williams with the carrot of a drive in the Mercedes all winning factory team dangling before his eyes....now look where they are. As with most things, although the team has the same name, it comes down to the engineers talent and management. I'm not sure how many of the 'original' team that dominated in the 2010's are still working there. This churn of staff is nothing new, it's about having a breadth and depth of good engineers so if a couple leave, you're not too adversely affected.
I do feel horrid for Russell, especially when he did get a drive for a win and then the puncture... Then even past that, they brought him in to "learn" from Lewis for a year... Then Lewis decided he wasn't retiring and dictated car development and fought him, and now that the car was developed for Lewis, he's jumping to Ferrari. So he got brought in to be Lewis' replacement, was made to sit in a car much worse than his skill level and peers, potentially hindering his development, and then brought him up to try to make him play second fiddle.
The fact that merc were slower than Williams (which use the W14 rear suspension) shows they haven't understood the car yet compared to their rivals, I don't think its as alarming as the last two years, hopefully they will figure it out as quick as possible Edit- they were slower than alpine and williams according to, F1 Data analysis, Formula uno and AMuS (in high speed corners)
@@MuhammadNiz007 I think the comment was about the section in Jeddah between turns 6 and 10. In that section, the W15 was the slowest car in qualifying; so, it was very much slower than the Williams. The car's top speed advantage allowed them to make up some of that lost time in sectors 2 and 3. But, if they had the grip to be average in sector 1 and maintain their advantage in sectors 2 and 3, you're looking at a car that could have been on the front row with Verstappen.
The thing is, Hamilton mentioned these problems in pre season testing but everyone seemed to skip over his remarks. In pre season testing he was saying this problem still exist even though he was more confident in this car than the W14 & W15. All while plenty of the so called fans of the sport who knows better were saying Hamilton knows nothing about developing cars but he seemed to be the only one who picked up on these issues in pre season testing while everyone else (some fans, team personnel's and even George Russel) were busy praising/talking up the car. I now fully understand why he is moving to Ferrari and seemingly did it after testing the car in the sim. This is Mirroring his last few seasons with McLaren before he moved to Mercedes.
He taste the same 💊 as Vettel did in Ferrari when nobody heard his feedback. As people beloved Arribavene said drivers job is to drive a car not teaching engineers about car development
This is their third concept in as many years. This is a more 'traditional' concept. By that, I mean that they have regular sidepods. So maybe as the season progresses, the car will improve. (Massive copium)
Exactly. If you exclude the front wing, their car is essentially a copy of the RB19. RB and Ferrari now have their owns designs, meaning that Mercedes are unavoidably gonna stay one step behind. That's just how it is when you copy @@supprush
brawn is awesome at managing the department, but not at providing the design solution itself. this has been spoken about by Adrian newey and other engineers. he's very useful for a team but not in the same way newey is.
Supposedly Wolff has not significantly upgraded the factory facilities since Brawn set the specifications for them back in 2012-2013, which doesn't help matters.
@@chee_wai Brawn set up the department culture that allowed the personnel to thrive according to John Owen. It's in his interview with The Race. Shovlin credits Schumacher for raising the standard of professionalism and motivation at Merc.
Unlike Ferrari, Mercedes still isn't on a good path where the basis of the car is without great flaws and you just need to add performance. This is why I believe that the advantage of Ferrari will even grow in this season rather than shrink. Lewis will be right with his move to Ferrari. They have the best chance to challenge Red Bull in forseeable future. And if they cant, they still are clear No 2. Mercedes will have trouble to hold McLaren back.
They lost too many of the key staff at all levels that contributed to their previous success. It takes years to even try to come back from that. It's like a 'rebuild' phase in other team sports but we don't get to see the team.
Exactly! We don't see that they have lost their best striker, or best wide receiver, or quarterback. But they have and it matters greatly. Now, whose fault is that - that is another question.
Not once has a team ever "caught up" in a regulation era once the leading team figures the rules out and dominates. It's never happened ... and it's not gonna happen here. Even in 2021 when Red Bull "figured out" how to catch up, Mercedes still won the constructor's title.
I was about the take out my pitch fork and try to destroy your comment, but then read about Merc winning the constructors in 21 and that’s correct, that complete dominance in a way.
2017 and 2018 Ferrari caught up with the Mercs, unfortunately that Ferrari team didnt know how to upgrade the car during the year. 2020 Ferrari could have also been a challenger, but the penalty unfortunately brought the car down.
Rb didn't win the constructors in 2021 cos they effectively had one driver scoring consistently. The fact they won the drivers title shows they caught up, so it has been done. I would say they even surpassed merc that year. Lewis was lucky to get back to even points as they basically sacrificed bottas season with regular pu upgrades to maximise what they could do with Lewis car. He found out how hard they could safely push the engine performance without risking dnfs.
Counterpoint: 2009-2010. Brawn GP had figured out the 2009-gen car regs best but Red Bull had caught up by the following year, even with Brawn becoming the Mercedes works team.
Counterpoint: 2020 Mercedes and 2023 Red Bull was built while keeping in mind that Ferrari's dawn could be real. In the long term, yes the rivals never caught up to the dominants. But if we change our perspective and see in the short term basis, we could see that in every 4 seasons, the dominants have felt vulnerable to the rivals atleast twice.
The James Allison Mercedes myth... Some believe James Allison had nothing to do with the W13 concept, which simply isn't true... Mike Elliott also played a role, namely the fall guy. Mercedes' dominant W08-W12 era was literally built on a platform created by Aldo Costa (car) and Andy Cowell (Power Unit). Nothing to do with James Allison...he can't save you.
its wild how many of the teams are fighting basic correlation problems and thus essentially working in the blind in the factory. Just goes to show that, even though we master physics in so many aspects, some areas like fluid dynamics are still so difficult.
When active suspension was banned it was supposedly due to the budget limitations for the teams lower down the rankings. Now it's available for road cars. Bring it back. I think in this era it would help even the field.
@@StruggleGaming Designing and refining the design of an F1 car is extremely difficult, and inevitably involves some guess work. There are a lot of overly simplistic narratives flying around. Just because they can't get the car performing quite as well as some of the other teams doesn't mean that they're incompetent idiots.
@@syncmonismthat’s something people don’t understand, even if someone gets a chance to drive the 2018 Williams around a track, the car is gonna perform way better than any Road Car out there on the streets. All F1 cars are amazing pieces of engineering.
Every time I get into conversations about this ‘ground effect era’ and the underfloor being the most import part - I immediately bring attention to what Adrian Newey was prioritising during the RB18 development - the suspension.
He said in a 2022 interview that it was the suspension that he wanted to get right so he assigned solely himself the task of designing that. Presumably giving the majority of the rest of the design to the other aerodynamicists, intended to return to the floor for big gains knowing that the platform was right.
People act like Mercedes is destined to be a top team. They aren't, nobody is. I think everyone just has PTSD from all their dominance in the previous era but teams rise and fall in this sport.
All this does is continue to highlight the fact that Ross Brawn built and the team and guided the team that built that monster of a car along with Schumi as his dev driver and team leader. Toto did nothing more than parachute in after the car was built, kick Brawn out, and take all the credit. He takes all the praise, but never mentions Brawns contributions to that era. Toto is completely lost as to how to guide the team as he has no technical background. Brawn was able to build the team, set the dev direction for the car and guide the engineers. All of Allison’s success was working under Brawn. Without him here none of them know which direction to go in for these regs, while Brawn did it at 4 different teams.
The reality is Merc is a midfield team that wont win a race till 2026 at the earliest. Hopefully theyre cooking with the 2026 engine cause that seems like the only way they can win in f1
They won’t be able to focus on improving the car and building valuable upgrades if they’re still fixing that porpoising and balance issue that most of the other teams solved during preseason testing 2 years ago.
Only RB got it fixed in 22 testing, the other teams took at least the entire 22 season or even longer. And i guess merc never did, just goes to show how much they suck at building cars when they don't have a ridiculous engine advantage.
Do people not remember nearly every other year or even every year Mercedes had a “diva” they’ve never really understood their aero they just always had a good engine
WOW, That AMG PU was way ahead of everyone and never had a real rules change till 22. It's really showing now. And it says miles about Williams and Force India's lacking.
The power units will be much more important in 2026. So if they get that right, it wouldn't really matter if their car design isn't the best from an aero and chassis standpoint. Newey has multiple times alluded to this notion that his RB designs from 2014-2020 were the best on the grid but since he didn't have a competitive engine during those times he couldn't really compete with Mercedes at the top.
Ground effect won’t be 1/10 of the strategy in 26. It will all be efficiency and power. If you cannot run your car off your engine, only your battery, what is the point of ground effect. You want less draggy, streamlined, efficient, powerful cars. Ground effect in corners will go away in favor of high speed efficient straights. Lift and coast will be huge, KERS will be huge. People aren’t getting how tectonic of a shift this will be
@@GR1NCHI don't know. The cars are going to be smaller and lighter for 2026 with a targeted weight loss of around 50 kg, if I recall correctly. There should, in theory be less of a reliance on pure power than what we have now, and with the smaller cars, there should be better racing, even if all else were to remain the same.
@@halofreak1990 With 450hp from electrical, there will be more of a reliance on good ERS than ever IMO. The differences between where you run out of that 450hp electrical on the straights and drop back to the 550hp combustion only could potentially be huge IMO.
@@halofreak1990 they can make the car shorter (cutting the nose length) but i doubt on weight loss. Bigger battery is kinda the opposite of weight reduction, unless they reintroduce refueling.
@@mineralwater6736 Red Bull has no locked in advantage there are no rules preventing other teams from designing a better car, and actually it is the opposite because there are rules that allow other teams more time to catch up based on the championship finishing position. Red Bull has much less of advantage now with rules actively hurting them.
@@ajegelin dude what? it's now harder to catch up thanks to engine lock and budget cap. RB has it way easier now than any other team that dominated before them.
@@mineralwater6736ahh a new fan. So here’s what happened. Mercedes helped write the new engine regs with the fia before 2014. Their multiple year advantage was locked in via engine freezes and token systems for 8 years which ensured their domination for the longest period in f1 history - as it took nearly 7 years for Honda to finally catch up. This year and last have been the closest the grid has ever been in f1 history with red bull’s advantage being much smaller than mercedes’ of the past. Red Bull had no head start on the rules regulations and can’t outspend every team like Mercedes did for all those years (even though they tried in 2021 when they spend the most money of any team when including the items outside of the budget cap). And as I said before, the rules actually punish Red Bull now in terms of wind tunnel time, again which never happened to Mercedes.
Mercedes still has yet to prove they’re capable of winning without a massive advantage. They only ever won with an engine that was so insanely far ahead of the field
It just always seems like there is this sense of entitlement with Mercedes, that they’re going to be competing for championships. And then when they’re not it’s like omg, this is so shocking. That’s been the same story for years now
Such a complex engineering problem. What I love about F1 is incredibly complex engineering on show each weekend but it's easy to see how it can be frustrating for fans who have no concept of the complexity of the physics or simulation tools etc.
@@richardashton5015 It's amazing how they don't understand that Lewis is actually the reason Merc is failing today. They decided to pay him an exorbitant salary instead of retaining the engineers who designed the W11. So the engineers got poached by other teams. Hence the downfall of Mercedes.
@@quigglyz Driver salaries are exempt from the cost cap, the second thing is you can't really stop engineers from leaving for other teams. Could you offer them more money? Sure but not everyone is motivated purely by money.
Salary is not included but it shows how much they liked him and listened to him. His majesty gave hints in what direction they should go. So they followed his royal guidance. Hmmmm maybe not his greatness as he claims!
Bla! Bla! Bla! Quack! Quack! Quack! All you need to know is, most of the cars are going around the high speed turns flat out, while Lewis and George are going around them at about 60% throttle.
With Hamilton, it's always something other than him?! The weather, the tires, somebody cut me off, the car's impossible to drive,,, etc. etc. While his teammate smokes him weekly!
This is why Louis left and why max has 0% chase of signing with Mercedes Jos may sign with Mercedes but that’s not a big loss he’s the biggest 🍆 head in f1 history and I have been watching f1 since the 70’s
May be it was just the characteristic of this gen's cars, so whether the driver adapt and get used to them, or the rear continues to feel unstable no matter how the engineer try to fix an unfixable problem.
Might well be. We do know that Max likes a pointy car with lose rear… this gen of cars gives him that. LH wants more balance and complaints abt the rear being too lose. So yeah, could be, he simply has to addapt
How many times in the past 25 ish years a team that doesn't get a rule cycle right in the beginning will catch the team(s) that did? It never happens without some drastic rule change that affects the dominating car. And that comes from the times with more rule freedoms and no cost cap. There was a small chance that Ferrari could catch Red Bull but that chance was gone after the TD39. I think it's more shocking that people don't know how F1 works even after years covering/watching it.
Yeah. You are 100% correct. Whom ever makes the best car in the first year of the regulation changes tends to dominate the whole generation these days. We've only had 2 Championship winning teams for the last 14 seasons, Merc and Red Bull. And both teams dominated due to getting their cars right in the first season of the changes. And whom ever makes the best car in 2026 will most likely dominate that era as well. Be nice if it's someone else to be honest. Wouldn't mind seeing McLaren have a come back.
@@luckyluc252026 is a smaller rule change compared to the move to ground effect cars, so I think Red Bull has a very good chance to continue its domination in that era.
Mercedes had such a good engine, they didn't have to focus much on aero or pit stop time.With engine rules frozen, it's all about the interaction between the aero and ground effect. Bounce and no rear end.
@@moos7005If you have a significant power advantage you can pile on downforce to fix your bad chassis and ignore the extra drag -- that's why the Red Bull looked purely like a more efficient design that needed to run less wing in those seasons. But the Honda PU caught up slowly until Mercedes had to try, and the cracks started appearing.
They need a better simulation model that caters to under-chassis aero instead of one that focuses on aerodynamic surfaces. For everything they've done, it feels like the top side of the car has gotten more attention than the underside and the mechanical platform has suffered for it. Losing confident Merc can make a race-winning challenger with each race.
Probabaly not more than the underfloor, but more than it should. 2 sidepod upgrades in 2023, the latter of which did nothing. Ferrari is a good example. The 2024 car is much simpler on the surface, without the viking horns and little airbox winglets the sf23 had. (tho i hope they get added back with the upcoming updrades). Yet it made the biggest leap (possibly excluding Hass and VCARB)
You cant figure it out. In the real world it was a horribly flawed concept. No way to guide aiflow towardst the beam wing/diffuse and a unsupported floor
@@dylanburston7453 you wouldn't know that thou, the best you can say is that Mercedes' execution of that idea was flawed as a whole... ofcoarse it is more difficult to achieve the sort of "aero handshake" between the front and back as the prev gen cars... but with the SIS winglet and the pseudo y250 wing, they have somewhat re-engineered some of the tools back into the tool box. Also I think the issue with the W13/14A was likely just as much about keeping the front wheel wake out board as this wake could still interact negatively with the clean air pulled over a wide down-washing sidepod. Also I think there is a good reason why people like James Allison were quick to retort that the sidepod is not the main contributing factor in why the previous cars failed. I think that directly combats the idea that it is inherently a flawed concept by itself and not just that it didn't work with the rest of the package of the car.
@@stephen2282 There is a reason no other team has ran that concept though. Newey said Red Bull looked at it and considered it, but it was ultimately not the right way to go. Mercedes themselves even said that the simulated data did not match actual performance of the car which is arguably the most important thing to understand it and improve it. They really didn't know how to fix the car with that concept despite trying for a full year.
@@stephen2282 I know the sidepod was not the main factor in of itself, but symptoms it helped create, like the floor flexing and excessive drag, are things that massively impacted the performance of the Merc. But they are still fundamentaly flawed. The floor rigidity, internal packaging (and therefore centre of gravity) and driver position were all adversely affected. The floor rigity was the big one tho, as other cars in 2022 (nameley the Williams, Alfa and AM had those short/long elevated sidepods) The Zero pods may work, but not on a ground effect car, and not with the current PU given the packaging requirements they demand. The Zero pods would need some kind of active ground effect controller (active suspension or skirts), more fuel efficient engines or refuelling to get round the issues they had with the fuel tank packaging, and the floor "sticky uppy bits" to control the airflow that the sidepod profile ususally would, and much more floor reinforcement allowance
I believe one of the largest problems causing "porpoising" is the length of the cars today. If they were say similar to the RB02 in length, this wouldn't be an issue period
yeah but they still have a lot of staff from their dominant era, and Redbull mainly poached people from the engine department, not the aero. it really does feel like a a team that's on the decline and once Lewis leaves I really wonder if they'll be able to reinvent themselves.
Also keep in mind it was mentioned in hidden articles that the valkyrie provided useful info to Adrian newey that helped me improve the red bull cars. Which helped since wind tunnel and budgets got tightened these recent years. Either way merc made the amg project one. They could use the same loophole and they still aren't doing well. Merc feels like a matador at the end of his pinnacle. I don't really care who wins, I just want to see good racing. Which happens but lack of competition ruined it a bit
The lack of performance in high-speed corners was very noticeable when Hamilton was chasing Norris. In the straights he could keep up, even gain some time (also because of DRS). But soon they reached the high-speed corners, Norris would shoot in the distance, it looked like the McLaren engaged super-boost in comparison with the Mercedes.
Well also the fact that Hamilton isn’t that great of a driver compared to other top tier. Which lando absolutely is top tier. He’s a top mid fielder in skill. His titles are 100% due to the Mercedes dominance. He regularly lost to teammates that have a handful of wins in careers that lasted years and years. People don’t want to look at that but it’s fact. Hes not THAT great unless he’s in a dominate car. The time he had real competition in a team mate he lost.
It's actually astonishing how they have overhauled almost the complete car twice now and they are still more or less in the same spot. They actually have no clue.
Welcome to formula 1. Funnily enough one of those merc drivers is one of the few to win a drivers championship without driving the constructors champion car. A good driver goes nowhere without the tools around him
Adrian Newey would disagree. He takes in plenty of feedback from the drivers on current-season cars when designing the cars for next season, and also when designing any upgrades. Computer simulations can only tell you so much, as evidenced by Mercedes, who keep on getting it wrong.
So they need to move the center of pressure of the floor back, comprensate in the front for the missing downforce and stiffen the suspension in the back?
They coped with it by saying "Mercedes is only running their engines at 70% - once the chassis is fixed say Sayonara to the Bull with the GP2 Engine." Whoops.
@@Nismoleb89or they don’t know how to program the software for these ground effect regs…. If they don’t understand the ground effect…they also might program their sim wrong…
I remember how you guys were harping about Mercedes in your podcast during the launch season, simply because they had an "extreme" front wing design. This just shows it's wrong to judge cars and form opinions before they hit the track (except RBR of course).
The main issue Mercedes has is high speed corners we saw in Jeddah how Norris destroyed Hamilton in sector one pulling over a second they’ve got problems and if they want any chance to fight Red Bull they have to fix that
For real, @@liam4603. It's so funny they don't realize that one of the greatest sports robberies in history won't just go away or be white washed. Ask FIFA, Pete Rose, and doping athletes. That kind of stain doesn't wash out
He's only winning because his car is 4+ seconds a lap better than anyone else. Stroll, Sargent or Albon would dominate in that car... And they all suck.
@@palm92 well not 100%. The car is so dominant that anyone in F1 could win as long as he can beat its teammate, just like Mercedes in the PU era (although this RB is even more dominant). That doesn't mean that Max and Lewis aren't top drivers, but claiming the car doesn't play a big part is nonsense.
@@kenpachi1989 Mercedes-Benz' PU was caught in 2017-2019 by Ferrari and in 2021 by Honda, where Verstappen finally had a car equal to Hamilton's (it was slightly better in qualifying trim) and he won. Yes it's the car, but it's not "4 Seconds a Lap Faster" and it's debatable if Albon could even beat Perez in it, much less Stroll or Sargeant.
@@palm92 well of course 4 seconds is bullshit, just as its obvious Stroll and Sergeant wouldn't beat Perez in a thousand year. I mean come on, if they were in a competition between themselves I'm positive they'd both find a way to lose.
The problem seems to be the ride height aero effective window is very narrow. Seems their floor design is sensitive and only generates downforce very low ride heights. Seems it gets unsettled and loses effect. The suspension has the job of maintaining the rake profile but I agree with the point you made about the topography of the floor.
I have 3 thoughts: 1. Is their rear suspension still collapsing, like it did under the previous regs? 2. Is their problems a lack of mechanical grip, as a result of their very efficient aero grip they perfected under the previous regs? 3. Have they put too much effort into generating outwash, over aerodynamic grip?
They risked that on purpose to get at least 1 win. Like they did in Australia by setting the engines on high to get at least 1 win… George’s engine exploded. They knew that was the only way to try and win A RACE.
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I feel like I’ve seen this video before
@@servethesongssuch an annoying channel
@@royshavrickthen stop watching
@@servethesongs what are they supposed to do? Not cover it?
For the third year in a row?
@@xyz1415it’s a f1 news channel. Mercedes is an f1 team. They’re reporting on the f1 team on the f1 channel. Imagine that.
In preseason they were so glad that the simulation data correlated and they could “build on this”. It’s like they don’t understand anything about F1 anymore
Most of the engineers have left for other teams.
It is also what happens when you are not spending 50% more than anyone else.
@@Aefweard this is rubbish. The teams they were spending 50% more than are still behind them.
What happened with Merc is it the fact half Merc team Left and went to Red Bull and William's . No wonder lewis is leaving like they don't know how to build a car anymore even The other teams they sell there engine and other parts to are doing better than them . This definitely the downwards spiral for them what goes up must come down sadly there no longer the dream team 😢
I mean if RB didn't have Newey they would be struggling too. See how people that worked at RB left to other teams (like Aston Martin) and improved their cars, but still can't get near the performance of the RB, so means they don't fully understand the concept, because the genius of Newey is what is making RB a dominant beast. Without him they would probably be where most teams are.
Mercedes is allergic to aerodynamic floors
haunts them in their nightmares
Floor and suspension is their nightmare
well not really in 2020 they had the best suspension in the grip combined with a floor that was untouched and not only 2020, all the way through 2016 to 2020 it was the floor a long wheel base and a solid suspension that did mercedes a jumo to lead
It's just that Toto finally having to start from the ground up. He got Merc in great hands from Brawn & Co's foundation.
@sidharthtirkey44Mercedes were the master of having the best engine and the competition banned from developing the engines... When Redbull and Ferrari started to get closer when the crappy token system was introduced (mostly due to aero) fia decided in 2019 to decrease aero lmao and Mercedes back to big gaps again...
Right now engines are frozen but they're very close to each other(except Renault, they always gonna sck)... And aero is not ban so they are allowed to catch up ...
By the time Merc "figure" out thier car, Newey will be playing 5 dimension chess in the interstellar universe
They only got next year (possibly this year if they get it absolutely right) and in 2026, regulations are changing again 💀
@@meetmadhu7373 won't change enough to make significant changes in the pecking order 😂😂
“Interstellar universe” 😂
Lol I feel like hes already doing that in his spare time. Wouldnt be surprised if he shows up one day in a wheelchair and is able to talk to the engineering gods of all those other dimensions and his mind does that thing from the hangover where he's at the casino doing all the mental math....except its F1 cars.
They need that catering department of red bulls 🤣🤣
the FIA is such a clean corrupt free organisation of course
Their biggest problem is that they continue to declare that they've solved a problem prematurely. I remember after Spain one year they declared that they had made a breakthrough when it was actually just track specific. Same sort of thing in Brazil in 2022 that convinced them to keep the previous concept and now again after only running the new concept at Bahrain they start making massive claims. They need to be more measured imo at the very least with the media.
That's because merc doesn't get aero, even if their lives would depend on it.
Yeah, they were so melodramatic - mostly coming from Wolff - and I think it's down to perceiving themselves as being the fan favorite (debatable) and just the need to control the sport. On top of that it's about reassuring shareholders with whatever they need to hear. A bit pathetic, but people see through Toto now and his constant gaslighting.
2022 I think they were saying we've sorted porpoising but we hit baku fp1 the w13 was porpoising like mad
@@Ruylopez778 hamilton is a fan favorite not merc 😂. I’m excited to see how many merc fans are Ferrari fans next year lol. Cause nobody seems to like russell and toto
Things to note here.
1 - This isn't 2017-2021 AMG. This is basically an entirely different team.
2 - This *should* have been their 2022 car, so they're starting 2 years behind everyone else.
3 - Everyone had correlation issues (yes even RB) during 2022, and Ferrari was complaining about it as recently as mid-'23. This isn't a resolved issue, and it's something affecting everyone.
4 - AMG doesn't have the advantage of a nuclear bomb of an engine relative to the rest of the grid and a half a billion budget to let them build a draggy, aero inefficient car with a hilariously narrow setup window anymore.
5 - Merc takes a bit with regulation changes to really get it right, they were bad during Schumacher's time there and dominated the turbo hybrid era because everyone else was on the back foot in some worse way.
Basically, this unsurprising. AMG wasn't that good, and when there was proper competition they'd just outspend them. Now that they can't, the team's sliding back to where they were prior to the TH Era.
Good breakdown. How will Hamilton go at Ferrari?
The 2023 car should have been their 2022 car and their 2024 car should have been their 2023 car so they're effectively 1 year behind on development.
Mercedes had a powrful engine in 2021 which is why they were often able to run a higher load rear wing to everyone to compensate for any lack of downforce relative to their competitors.
Before 2021 tho, whilst they had a strong engine, they had an even stronger floor which was arguably their greatest asset considering how they used to be the team that managed to run the lowest rake with a long wheelbase which allowed them to gather dowforce specially through the high speed corners.
I agree budget constraints could definitely be a reason for their downfall but also i think the lack of wind tunnel time to test the mass amount of parts being researched and developed is also a hindrace for them...Basically they resort to performing experiments on race weekend these days instead of conducting said experiments in CFD and the wind tunnel which basically affects the development rate and progress of parts being cleared for use and therefore resulting them to be so far behind everyone in terms of developing the car for each year.
@@NJ0711 do you mean 2020 instead of 2021? Because I am pretty sure Mercedes were hampered by the floor in 2021, and the W12 was basically just a watered down W11, except they took a bigger hit than for ex Redbull did
Point 4 is daft. Why do you guys always echo "they had an advantage in the engine development" the actual thing that made them quick was a new outlook on how to the turbo charger worked. Which allowed them to run small side pods which created better aero benefits and cooling along with better fuel efficiency, less turbo lag and a better centre of gravity compared to its rivals as everything was neat and tightly packaged.
You say it Asif their block was this bullet proof over engineered masterpiece whilst everyone else had just quickly slapped a 1.6 turbo together the night before. Everyone knew about the rule change at the same time. Merc tried something and it paid off. Then later engine homologation effects came into play and that set their advantage in for the foreseeable. Similar to the Honda engine today.
@@GameOver-nm2us That's why i said in 2021, Mercedes were able to compensate their lack of downforce due to the sudden floor regulations by setting up the car with a higher load rear wing and they were able to do so because they arguably had the most powerful P.U
I’ve lost faith in them under these rules. At least Ferrari have sort of got it together
I guess Lewis saw it coming.
what i thought italians sucked at building cars lo and behold ferrari sf24 is a better car than mercedes 😲
Maybe. But Lewis isn't winning another title and given Ferrari's track record may not win another race.
@@bmstyleething is split turbo is banned for 2026 and Ferrari are the only engine without a split turbo
@@harry4454 split turbo vs regular turbo is a copium discussion.
Mercedes won't seriously be challenging for the remainder of the current regulations. It became apparent, that their hybrid domination was maintained mainly due to an overpowered engine and RedBulls lack their of. RedBulls Chassis was always top notch but Renault held them back with an inferior enigne.
Yep they are back to their normal 2010-13 selves lol
Not at all. The low rake concept proved to be superior in the last era, and RB could come up to it only because of the floor cut regulation change in '21.
which is why Williams were so dominant during that era too right??
Least delusional Red Bull fan
Not a great take to be honest. Ferrari had the better engine in the 2018-2019 timeframe so Mercedes didn't have a PU advantage throughout that whole era. Additionally, the Merc from 2014-2016 was TOTALLY dominant (not just in terms of straight-line performance). Since the aero regulations overhaul, Mercedes have just been completely lost and what people are not full grasping is that this is NOT the same team that dominated for years. There has been extreme brain drain at Mercedes for the last several years. Hamilton choosing to leave should be seen as a harbinger of bad times to come. How long were McLaren in the cellar after Lewis left that team. I think the same thing is kind of going on with Mercedes. The team actually needs to rebuild, and I agree with the OP's assertion that they will not be particularly strong until 2026 at the earliest.
this car should have been last year's iteration
Well their Tech head Lewis didn't like that concept it seems😂
Or 2022s …
What I think is happening at Mercedes is actually there isn't much happening. They are still building decent cars, good enough to drive in the points and for podiums. The biggest change that has happened, is that with stable engine regulations (mostly), the advantage they had over others slowly diminished over 8 years. The cars they are building now aren't a lot slower or handling so much worse, but it seems like a lot, because for years they could run more downforce than others on that good enough car.
well but Lewis didn't really complain about an unstable rear end or no confidence in the car under the old regs, those cars were mostly rocksolid and predictable for the drivers which apparently these aren't.
@@speedsociety9177 Being able to add more downforce is doing exactly that. Or the other way around, not being able to add more downforce is making your car less solid and predictable.
It seems that Mercedes needs no cost cap in order to build a dominant car.
I think it has to do with how difficult it is to design a good ground effect car with simplified suspension systems. Mercedes could spend over the cost cap and still not be fast because they don't seem to understand their problems.
And an engine with 50 bhp more with a party mode button 😂
Their aero was never their strong suit even during the heydays. Technical directors always received benefits of having a strong PU.
All the top teams have about 1000 personal. How do you pay them with the cost cap. Its a big scam. There should not be any costs cap.
@@gloveson5687This is precisely why you shouldn’t find a career in anything sport related. The game is not about just the top teams. Its about equal platform for everyone.
Tbf it's their first go at a philosophy others have run for 2 years, add in their simulation oddities as well as the seemingly unstable setup it has in regarding aero balance, and they can't get the most out of it. It's unfortunate... But thats how it is until they can sort that all out.
If they can sort it out
Lmao hi Jonah
Hamilton said they're still running a different philosophy to "the front three teams." So, while they are figuring out a new concept, they still aren't even on the same page as the others. It's like they refuse to accept that RB got it right...
and those other teams, 2 years ago, had less problems in their first year of running this philosophy...so your statement is NOT true.
It's Ferrari'z first year too 💀 they ain't that bad
You gotta feel for Russell. Spent years at Williams with the carrot of a drive in the Mercedes all winning factory team dangling before his eyes....now look where they are. As with most things, although the team has the same name, it comes down to the engineers talent and management. I'm not sure how many of the 'original' team that dominated in the 2010's are still working there. This churn of staff is nothing new, it's about having a breadth and depth of good engineers so if a couple leave, you're not too adversely affected.
Bottas was given 1 year contracts yet they didn't want to sign George sooner cause they feared he would be a threat to their princess reaching 7 wdc.
@@RTX4080Gamingthey always said Russel would be there for 3 years…
Russell is no worldchampion material, and Lewis only wins when he has 50bhp more then the others plus his partymode
I do feel horrid for Russell, especially when he did get a drive for a win and then the puncture...
Then even past that, they brought him in to "learn" from Lewis for a year... Then Lewis decided he wasn't retiring and dictated car development and fought him, and now that the car was developed for Lewis, he's jumping to Ferrari.
So he got brought in to be Lewis' replacement, was made to sit in a car much worse than his skill level and peers, potentially hindering his development, and then brought him up to try to make him play second fiddle.
@@ml8022exactly
They still have no clue. Only way they could come back is no more cost cap and party mode back
The fact that merc were slower than Williams (which use the W14 rear suspension) shows they haven't understood the car yet compared to their rivals, I don't think its as alarming as the last two years, hopefully they will figure it out as quick as possible
Edit- they were slower than alpine and williams according to, F1 Data analysis, Formula uno and AMuS (in high speed corners)
They weren't slower than Williams at all that's taking things too far
Let's not over exaggerate
HUH?
@@MuhammadNiz007 I think the comment was about the section in Jeddah between turns 6 and 10. In that section, the W15 was the slowest car in qualifying; so, it was very much slower than the Williams. The car's top speed advantage allowed them to make up some of that lost time in sectors 2 and 3. But, if they had the grip to be average in sector 1 and maintain their advantage in sectors 2 and 3, you're looking at a car that could have been on the front row with Verstappen.
@SiegfriedDerDrachentoter2nd fastest, haas was faster on the straights
Welcome to the ‘this will be our year club’
The thing is, Hamilton mentioned these problems in pre season testing but everyone seemed to skip over his remarks. In pre season testing he was saying this problem still exist even though he was more confident in this car than the W14 & W15. All while plenty of the so called fans of the sport who knows better were saying Hamilton knows nothing about developing cars but he seemed to be the only one who picked up on these issues in pre season testing while everyone else (some fans, team personnel's and even George Russel) were busy praising/talking up the car. I now fully understand why he is moving to Ferrari and seemingly did it after testing the car in the sim. This is Mirroring his last few seasons with McLaren before he moved to Mercedes.
Anytime he opens his mouth ppl say he is crying. I guess he has some points tho
He taste the same 💊 as Vettel did in Ferrari when nobody heard his feedback. As people beloved Arribavene said drivers job is to drive a car not teaching engineers about car development
The issue is Hamilton. Next year Merc will do well.
@@stratcat3216 Massive copium.
@@bumblebity2902 you dont win anything if you dont listen drivers
Thank you Ross Brawn, your 2017 promise of no one team running away with the championship under Ground Effect has worked amazingly hasn't it?
This is their third concept in as many years. This is a more 'traditional' concept. By that, I mean that they have regular sidepods. So maybe as the season progresses, the car will improve. (Massive copium)
They had redular sidepods (aerodynamicly at least) for the majority of last year
Car will definetly improve, but the problem is how much it will improve while others are also improving.
Lemme get a hit of that copium
Exactly. If you exclude the front wing, their car is essentially a copy of the RB19. RB and Ferrari now have their owns designs, meaning that Mercedes are unavoidably gonna stay one step behind. That's just how it is when you copy @@supprush
@@giuseppemaggio5894the car is nothing like the rb19 the geometry of the sidepod and rear suspension is not even close
Ross Brawn knew what he was doing
brawn is awesome at managing the department, but not at providing the design solution itself. this has been spoken about by Adrian newey and other engineers. he's very useful for a team but not in the same way newey is.
Supposedly Wolff has not significantly upgraded the factory facilities since Brawn set the specifications for them back in 2012-2013, which doesn't help matters.
@@chee_waiobviously they are useful to the teams in different ways because they have different jobs
@@TassieLorenzo That sounds like reddit bullshit. Don't spread nonsense.
@@chee_wai Brawn set up the department culture that allowed the personnel to thrive according to John Owen. It's in his interview with The Race. Shovlin credits Schumacher for raising the standard of professionalism and motivation at Merc.
Unlike Ferrari, Mercedes still isn't on a good path where the basis of the car is without great flaws and you just need to add performance. This is why I believe that the advantage of Ferrari will even grow in this season rather than shrink. Lewis will be right with his move to Ferrari. They have the best chance to challenge Red Bull in forseeable future. And if they cant, they still are clear No 2. Mercedes will have trouble to hold McLaren back.
Nothing alarming they need 2 years ahead development time, unlimited budget and illegal testings to win everything😂😂😂
They lost too many of the key staff at all levels that contributed to their previous success. It takes years to even try to come back from that. It's like a 'rebuild' phase in other team sports but we don't get to see the team.
Exactly! We don't see that they have lost their best striker, or best wide receiver, or quarterback. But they have and it matters greatly. Now, whose fault is that - that is another question.
@@eastbaystreet1242 This is probably Toto's fault
Not once has a team ever "caught up" in a regulation era once the leading team figures the rules out and dominates. It's never happened ... and it's not gonna happen here.
Even in 2021 when Red Bull "figured out" how to catch up, Mercedes still won the constructor's title.
I was about the take out my pitch fork and try to destroy your comment, but then read about Merc winning the constructors in 21 and that’s correct, that complete dominance in a way.
2017 and 2018 Ferrari caught up with the Mercs, unfortunately that Ferrari team didnt know how to upgrade the car during the year. 2020 Ferrari could have also been a challenger, but the penalty unfortunately brought the car down.
Rb didn't win the constructors in 2021 cos they effectively had one driver scoring consistently. The fact they won the drivers title shows they caught up, so it has been done. I would say they even surpassed merc that year. Lewis was lucky to get back to even points as they basically sacrificed bottas season with regular pu upgrades to maximise what they could do with Lewis car. He found out how hard they could safely push the engine performance without risking dnfs.
Counterpoint: 2009-2010. Brawn GP had figured out the 2009-gen car regs best but Red Bull had caught up by the following year, even with Brawn becoming the Mercedes works team.
Counterpoint: 2020 Mercedes and 2023 Red Bull was built while keeping in mind that Ferrari's dawn could be real.
In the long term, yes the rivals never caught up to the dominants. But if we change our perspective and see in the short term basis, we could see that in every 4 seasons, the dominants have felt vulnerable to the rivals atleast twice.
The James Allison Mercedes myth...
Some believe James Allison had nothing to do with the W13 concept, which simply isn't true... Mike Elliott also played a role, namely the fall guy.
Mercedes' dominant W08-W12 era was literally built on a platform created by Aldo Costa (car) and Andy Cowell (Power Unit).
Nothing to do with James Allison...he can't save you.
I know we all know how well he did with the 2014 Ferrari lol horrible car
@@ultrascreens5206 Maybe use your personal youtube account, and not your comapnies.
@@Orcawhale1 maybe use you personal account and not Shamu’s..
@@ultrascreens5206the 2015 and 2017 ferrari were good though but yeah a hit or miss kind of guy it seems
@@Luke22SV they were also there was the b199 where he was head of aero
its wild how many of the teams are fighting basic correlation problems and thus essentially working in the blind in the factory.
Just goes to show that, even though we master physics in so many aspects, some areas like fluid dynamics are still so difficult.
When active suspension was banned it was supposedly due to the budget limitations for the teams lower down the rankings. Now it's available for road cars. Bring it back. I think in this era it would help even the field.
The 2024 field is one of the closest fields in f1 history same with 2023 & 2022
Which Road Car has an actual active suspensions (IE no springs or ARB?)
@@palm92 I think the McLarens, apart from the entry level GT models -- but indeed active suspension is not very common on road cars AFAIK.
that's not why only it was banned though. it was too dangerous
@@thecockycow Active suspensions were not banned for being too dangerous. They were banned for cost and performance balancing reasons.
It’s become somewhat embarrassing that the Mercs still can’t get the grip of this after all these years with the resources they have.
Why does the race keep uploading the same video 3 years in a row 🤔
Mercs doing a bit of technical insanity.
But sad innit?
@@StruggleGaming Designing and refining the design of an F1 car is extremely difficult, and inevitably involves some guess work. There are a lot of overly simplistic narratives flying around. Just because they can't get the car performing quite as well as some of the other teams doesn't mean that they're incompetent idiots.
@@syncmonismthat’s something people don’t understand, even if someone gets a chance to drive the 2018 Williams around a track, the car is gonna perform way better than any Road Car out there on the streets. All F1 cars are amazing pieces of engineering.
Well, they are looking like incompetent idiots right now when every other team, including customer teams are way beyond these issues.
Merc are just hopeless at ground affect cars
I love this channel don’t know where I’d be without 💪🏽
Already during testing the rear stability looked poor. So not sure why people had high expectations about Merc coming out of testing.
True
Every time I get into conversations about this ‘ground effect era’ and the underfloor being the most import part - I immediately bring attention to what Adrian Newey was prioritising during the RB18 development - the suspension.
He said in a 2022 interview that it was the suspension that he wanted to get right so he assigned solely himself the task of designing that. Presumably giving the majority of the rest of the design to the other aerodynamicists, intended to return to the floor for big gains knowing that the platform was right.
People act like Mercedes is destined to be a top team. They aren't, nobody is. I think everyone just has PTSD from all their dominance in the previous era but teams rise and fall in this sport.
All this does is continue to highlight the fact that Ross Brawn built and the team and guided the team that built that monster of a car along with Schumi as his dev driver and team leader. Toto did nothing more than parachute in after the car was built, kick Brawn out, and take all the credit. He takes all the praise, but never mentions Brawns contributions to that era. Toto is completely lost as to how to guide the team as he has no technical background. Brawn was able to build the team, set the dev direction for the car and guide the engineers. All of Allison’s success was working under Brawn. Without him here none of them know which direction to go in for these regs, while Brawn did it at 4 different teams.
True
The reality is Merc is a midfield team that wont win a race till 2026 at the earliest. Hopefully theyre cooking with the 2026 engine cause that seems like the only way they can win in f1
They won’t be able to focus on improving the car and building valuable upgrades if they’re still fixing that porpoising and balance issue that most of the other teams solved during preseason testing 2 years ago.
Only RB got it fixed in 22 testing, the other teams took at least the entire 22 season or even longer. And i guess merc never did, just goes to show how much they suck at building cars when they don't have a ridiculous engine advantage.
Do people not remember nearly every other year or even every year Mercedes had a “diva” they’ve never really understood their aero they just always had a good engine
WOW, That AMG PU was way ahead of everyone and never had a real rules change till 22. It's really showing now. And it says miles about Williams and Force India's lacking.
I don’t think they’ll do good in 2026 either since even though it’s a new set of regs, it still is ground effect.
The power units will be much more important in 2026. So if they get that right, it wouldn't really matter if their car design isn't the best from an aero and chassis standpoint.
Newey has multiple times alluded to this notion that his RB designs from 2014-2020 were the best on the grid but since he didn't have a competitive engine during those times he couldn't really compete with Mercedes at the top.
Ground effect won’t be 1/10 of the strategy in 26. It will all be efficiency and power. If you cannot run your car off your engine, only your battery, what is the point of ground effect. You want less draggy, streamlined, efficient, powerful cars. Ground effect in corners will go away in favor of high speed efficient straights. Lift and coast will be huge, KERS will be huge. People aren’t getting how tectonic of a shift this will be
@@GR1NCHI don't know. The cars are going to be smaller and lighter for 2026 with a targeted weight loss of around 50 kg, if I recall correctly. There should, in theory be less of a reliance on pure power than what we have now, and with the smaller cars, there should be better racing, even if all else were to remain the same.
@@halofreak1990 With 450hp from electrical, there will be more of a reliance on good ERS than ever IMO. The differences between where you run out of that 450hp electrical on the straights and drop back to the 550hp combustion only could potentially be huge IMO.
@@halofreak1990 they can make the car shorter (cutting the nose length) but i doubt on weight loss. Bigger battery is kinda the opposite of weight reduction, unless they reintroduce refueling.
COngrats on 1m! The most straightforward f1 channel, thanks for everything!
No locked in engine advantage
Derp comment
you mean like rb has now?
@@mineralwater6736 Red Bull has no locked in advantage there are no rules preventing other teams from designing a better car, and actually it is the opposite because there are rules that allow other teams more time to catch up based on the championship finishing position. Red Bull has much less of advantage now with rules actively hurting them.
@@ajegelin dude what? it's now harder to catch up thanks to engine lock and budget cap. RB has it way easier now than any other team that dominated before them.
@@mineralwater6736ahh a new fan. So here’s what happened. Mercedes helped write the new engine regs with the fia before 2014. Their multiple year advantage was locked in via engine freezes and token systems for 8 years which ensured their domination for the longest period in f1 history - as it took nearly 7 years for Honda to finally catch up. This year and last have been the closest the grid has ever been in f1 history with red bull’s advantage being much smaller than mercedes’ of the past. Red Bull had no head start on the rules regulations and can’t outspend every team like Mercedes did for all those years (even though they tried in 2021 when they spend the most money of any team when including the items outside of the budget cap). And as I said before, the rules actually punish Red Bull now in terms of wind tunnel time, again which never happened to Mercedes.
Mercedes still has yet to prove they’re capable of winning without a massive advantage. They only ever won with an engine that was so insanely far ahead of the field
Quick in the straights and painfully slow in the high speed corners. The 2024 Mercedes is just a better looking 2023 Williams right now.
Nah, that silver and black doesn't look good at all, i'll take the Williams blue any day of the week.
Lol
Merc and other just dont understand ground effect cars. Newey does. Thats it.
It just always seems like there is this sense of entitlement with Mercedes, that they’re going to be competing for championships.
And then when they’re not it’s like omg, this is so shocking.
That’s been the same story for years now
Thank God they finally listened to Lewis' expert car design advice!
Lol yeah…he said HE KNEW how the car should be, they listened and see now… no difference
Mercedes doesn't know how to adapt to ground effect cars
Such a complex engineering problem. What I love about F1 is incredibly complex engineering on show each weekend but it's easy to see how it can be frustrating for fans who have no concept of the complexity of the physics or simulation tools etc.
What is love? Baby, dont hurt me, dont hurt me, no more!
TUNE !!
Turns out when Mercedes doesn’t have a massive engine advantage and cant outspend everyone else they are just an average team
Their main issue IMO is the suspension not the down force, need to dial the suspension first
“I think hiring Kubota’s head aerodynamicist will be a big step forward to unlocking the potential of the W15!”
Toto Wolff
just googled it and found out it's a tractor....🤣🤣 He now have to bring the entire Kubota staff to Merc
My team is washed. I can't believe i have to stress every GP weekend 🤦🏿♂️
You jumped on a successful team because of baby Lewis. Now they are crap and you don't understand. That's what you get when you are a fanboy
@@richardashton5015 It's amazing how they don't understand that Lewis is actually the reason Merc is failing today. They decided to pay him an exorbitant salary instead of retaining the engineers who designed the W11. So the engineers got poached by other teams. Hence the downfall of Mercedes.
@@quigglyzdriver salary isn’t included in the budget cap?
@@quigglyz Driver salaries are exempt from the cost cap, the second thing is you can't really stop engineers from leaving for other teams. Could you offer them more money? Sure but not everyone is motivated purely by money.
Salary is not included but it shows how much they liked him and listened to him. His majesty gave hints in what direction they should go. So they followed his royal guidance. Hmmmm maybe not his greatness as he claims!
Bla! Bla! Bla! Quack! Quack! Quack! All you need to know is, most of the cars are going around the high speed turns flat out, while Lewis and George are going around them at about 60% throttle.
How many video talk about Mercedes lack of speed?
The Race: Yes
With Hamilton, it's always something other than him?! The weather, the tires, somebody cut me off, the car's impossible to drive,,, etc. etc. While his teammate smokes him weekly!
This is why Louis left and why max has 0% chase of signing with Mercedes Jos may sign with Mercedes but that’s not a big loss he’s the biggest 🍆 head in f1 history and I have been watching f1 since the 70’s
Jos at the 2001 Brazilian GP says it all.
While it is true Max isn't going to that toxic club, Jos isn't going there either. He's doing rally now, he isn't going to drive in F1 ever again.
This is the Brakley team we know and love
Bring back Andy Cowell.
There’s not a problem, they’re just not that good.
It’s that simple
Imagine if the W13 ends up being the best out of the new cars 💀
You seem like those Mercedes fan boys who thought Mercedes would finish 1-2 in Bahrain after Mercedes finished 1-2 in fp2 😂
@@sam_alimi surprisingly not. I'm a Lewis fan but I've never actually liked Mercedes
That would be the funniest sh*t, the almighty bouncy castle is the best they ever did with ground effect.
@@jumpcutfilms1958 Lewis fans never existed before Mercedes
@@sam_alimi There were plenty during his McLaren days, more so than Vettel fans
May be it was just the characteristic of this gen's cars, so whether the driver adapt and get used to them, or the rear continues to feel unstable no matter how the engineer try to fix an unfixable problem.
Might well be. We do know that Max likes a pointy car with lose rear… this gen of cars gives him that. LH wants more balance and complaints abt the rear being too lose. So yeah, could be, he simply has to addapt
How many times in the past 25 ish years a team that doesn't get a rule cycle right in the beginning will catch the team(s) that did? It never happens without some drastic rule change that affects the dominating car. And that comes from the times with more rule freedoms and no cost cap.
There was a small chance that Ferrari could catch Red Bull but that chance was gone after the TD39.
I think it's more shocking that people don't know how F1 works even after years covering/watching it.
Yeah. You are 100% correct. Whom ever makes the best car in the first year of the regulation changes tends to dominate the whole generation these days. We've only had 2 Championship winning teams for the last 14 seasons, Merc and Red Bull. And both teams dominated due to getting their cars right in the first season of the changes. And whom ever makes the best car in 2026 will most likely dominate that era as well. Be nice if it's someone else to be honest. Wouldn't mind seeing McLaren have a come back.
@@luckyluc252026 is a smaller rule change compared to the move to ground effect cars, so I think Red Bull has a very good chance to continue its domination in that era.
@@PlaySAhopefully the cars get much smaller at least. Some circuits are straight up unviable right now because of their size.
@@PlaySAPower unit change to 50% electric plus "sustainable" fuel seems huge. Also supposedly new regs permitting active aero.
Mercedes had such a good engine, they didn't have to focus much on aero or pit stop time.With engine rules frozen, it's all about the interaction between the aero and ground effect. Bounce and no rear end.
Bullocks the 2020 car had everything once the reduced the floor in 2021 they where struggling and red bull could close the gap
@@moos7005If you have a significant power advantage you can pile on downforce to fix your bad chassis and ignore the extra drag -- that's why the Red Bull looked purely like a more efficient design that needed to run less wing in those seasons. But the Honda PU caught up slowly until Mercedes had to try, and the cracks started appearing.
After 5 years of utter mercedes dominance i must say i totally enjoy their struggle now. :)
They need a better simulation model that caters to under-chassis aero instead of one that focuses on aerodynamic surfaces. For everything they've done, it feels like the top side of the car has gotten more attention than the underside and the mechanical platform has suffered for it.
Losing confident Merc can make a race-winning challenger with each race.
Probabaly not more than the underfloor, but more than it should. 2 sidepod upgrades in 2023, the latter of which did nothing.
Ferrari is a good example. The 2024 car is much simpler on the surface, without the viking horns and little airbox winglets the sf23 had. (tho i hope they get added back with the upcoming updrades).
Yet it made the biggest leap (possibly excluding Hass and VCARB)
i guess lewis' claims of them listening to his development has made the car worse again
Well at least I’ll be a Ferrari fan soon
You say like thats better. The last time we won a championship was 2007.
Jumping off a rooftop vs jumping off a mountain kinda scenario
@@ItsameDrewbetter atm
@@aventusV33 you have to climb the mountain first I guess
Is this a burner account for Adrian Newey...?!?
James Allison is not that great a designer, clearly not the silver bullet merc hoped he would be.
They should of keep the zero side pods and figured that out
You cant figure it out.
In the real world it was a horribly flawed concept. No way to guide aiflow towardst the beam wing/diffuse and a unsupported floor
@@dylanburston7453 you wouldn't know that thou, the best you can say is that Mercedes' execution of that idea was flawed as a whole... ofcoarse it is more difficult to achieve the sort of "aero handshake" between the front and back as the prev gen cars... but with the SIS winglet and the pseudo y250 wing, they have somewhat re-engineered some of the tools back into the tool box. Also I think the issue with the W13/14A was likely just as much about keeping the front wheel wake out board as this wake could still interact negatively with the clean air pulled over a wide down-washing sidepod. Also I think there is a good reason why people like James Allison were quick to retort that the sidepod is not the main contributing factor in why the previous cars failed. I think that directly combats the idea that it is inherently a flawed concept by itself and not just that it didn't work with the rest of the package of the car.
@@stephen2282 There is a reason no other team has ran that concept though. Newey said Red Bull looked at it and considered it, but it was ultimately not the right way to go. Mercedes themselves even said that the simulated data did not match actual performance of the car which is arguably the most important thing to understand it and improve it. They really didn't know how to fix the car with that concept despite trying for a full year.
@@stephen2282 I know the sidepod was not the main factor in of itself, but symptoms it helped create, like the floor flexing and excessive drag, are things that massively impacted the performance of the Merc.
But they are still fundamentaly flawed. The floor rigidity, internal packaging (and therefore centre of gravity) and driver position were all adversely affected.
The floor rigity was the big one tho, as other cars in 2022 (nameley the Williams, Alfa and AM had those short/long elevated sidepods)
The Zero pods may work, but not on a ground effect car, and not with the current PU given the packaging requirements they demand.
The Zero pods would need some kind of active ground effect controller (active suspension or skirts), more fuel efficient engines or refuelling to get round the issues they had with the fuel tank packaging, and the floor "sticky uppy bits" to control the airflow that the sidepod profile ususally would, and much more floor reinforcement allowance
I believe one of the largest problems causing "porpoising" is the length of the cars today. If they were say similar to the RB02 in length, this wouldn't be an issue period
Poor Mercedes lost their passion. Probably redbull and Aston bought to many useful staff and engineers
yeah but they still have a lot of staff from their dominant era, and Redbull mainly poached people from the engine department, not the aero. it really does feel like a a team that's on the decline and once Lewis leaves I really wonder if they'll be able to reinvent themselves.
@@zinj2618 Aero was never the strong point of merc
@@nafakirabratmu I concur, If they don't have a clear advantage with the upcoming engine regulations like they did in 2014 they'll be in trouble.
Also keep in mind it was mentioned in hidden articles that the valkyrie provided useful info to Adrian newey that helped me improve the red bull cars. Which helped since wind tunnel and budgets got tightened these recent years. Either way merc made the amg project one. They could use the same loophole and they still aren't doing well. Merc feels like a matador at the end of his pinnacle. I don't really care who wins, I just want to see good racing. Which happens but lack of competition ruined it a bit
@@nafakirabratmualso the cost cap hamstrung their mid season development, which they excelled at before the cap came in
The lack of performance in high-speed corners was very noticeable when Hamilton was chasing Norris. In the straights he could keep up, even gain some time (also because of DRS). But soon they reached the high-speed corners, Norris would shoot in the distance, it looked like the McLaren engaged super-boost in comparison with the Mercedes.
Well also the fact that Hamilton isn’t that great of a driver compared to other top tier. Which lando absolutely is top tier. He’s a top mid fielder in skill. His titles are 100% due to the Mercedes dominance. He regularly lost to teammates that have a handful of wins in careers that lasted years and years. People don’t want to look at that but it’s fact. Hes not THAT great unless he’s in a dominate car. The time he had real competition in a team mate he lost.
@@TheBajaminlast year he was the second best driver without a dominant car
@@awsome4272 last year he got lucky that 4 other people were talking points from each other. He was consistently average.
Define "Luck"
It's actually astonishing how they have overhauled almost the complete car twice now and they are still more or less in the same spot. They actually have no clue.
Feels like they restart from 0 each times without learning why their current car doesn't perform before starting a new concept.
Well, they actually going backwards. Don't be shocked if they do worse this year than 2022.
and to think all the click bait sites are saying max is going to mercedes. why would he even consider it?
He won't, media mainly consists of idiots who are just posting BS for the heck of it.
The moral of the story is: the aerodynamicist is much, much, much more important than the self-important driver.
The team head, heads of engineering, and then the drivers, any decent driver will win if they have the better car
I mean that's completely obvious. The only person you can really compare a driver against is their own teammate.
Welcome to formula 1. Funnily enough one of those merc drivers is one of the few to win a drivers championship without driving the constructors champion car.
A good driver goes nowhere without the tools around him
Yep. Merc should have retained their engineers instead of paying Lewis more money than he's worth...
Adrian Newey would disagree. He takes in plenty of feedback from the drivers on current-season cars when designing the cars for next season, and also when designing any upgrades. Computer simulations can only tell you so much, as evidenced by Mercedes, who keep on getting it wrong.
So they need to move the center of pressure of the floor back, comprensate in the front for the missing downforce and stiffen the suspension in the back?
Please yes, again! Love watching Mercedes waffle about like a midfield team.
They're paying dearly for joining the Cult of Lewis.
You must be from the cult of maxipad. @@quigglyz
Well...Hamilton's move to Ferrari is definitely starting to look more justified
No one thought that Merc was just going to pull a winning car out of their asses after the last 2 years except fools, fanboys, and clickbaiters.
They coped with it by saying "Mercedes is only running their engines at 70% - once the chassis is fixed say Sayonara to the Bull with the GP2 Engine." Whoops.
The difference between the RB19's floor and the Mercs was crazy
I think what's alarming, more than anything technical about Mercedes is the fact Russell hasn't turned into anyone/any barrier yet
Wait for Singapore
@@Dishanta_Goswami😂
He's just biding his time, practicing all his Mansell-esque whining & excuses ready for that 💥 moment...
😂
They need to get rid of the side pods
I wonder if Mercedes has considered that there is something wrong with their simulator?!?
They did, toto said they're thinking it's simulator software at this point.
@@Nismoleb89or they don’t know how to program the software for these ground effect regs…. If they don’t understand the ground effect…they also might program their sim wrong…
I remember how you guys were harping about Mercedes in your podcast during the launch season, simply because they had an "extreme" front wing design. This just shows it's wrong to judge cars and form opinions before they hit the track (except RBR of course).
Exactly
to much click bait from this channel, titles are reading like a drama magazine
The main issue Mercedes has is high speed corners we saw in Jeddah how Norris destroyed Hamilton in sector one pulling over a second they’ve got problems and if they want any chance to fight Red Bull they have to fix that
Man, Abu Dhabi 2021 just gets better and better every year!!!🤣😁😛
Tell us you're a person with no integrity, without telling us...
@@liam4603Bro it was 3 years ago. Get over it. Tell us you're a bitter whiner cry baby, without telling us....
For real, @@liam4603. It's so funny they don't realize that one of the greatest sports robberies in history won't just go away or be white washed. Ask FIFA, Pete Rose, and doping athletes. That kind of stain doesn't wash out
@@liam4603 Cry me a river, chomp!
@@alotl1kevegas860 According to him the RB is 4 seconds a lap faster
Other teams have had occasional porpoising, Mercedes has remained very loyal to its humpback whaling.
If Max were to move to Mercedes under bizarre circumstances and still manage to win races in 2025 I would be flabbergasted
He's only winning because his car is 4+ seconds a lap better than anyone else. Stroll, Sargent or Albon would dominate in that car... And they all suck.
@@liam4603 Nonsense.
@@palm92 well not 100%. The car is so dominant that anyone in F1 could win as long as he can beat its teammate, just like Mercedes in the PU era (although this RB is even more dominant). That doesn't mean that Max and Lewis aren't top drivers, but claiming the car doesn't play a big part is nonsense.
@@kenpachi1989 Mercedes-Benz' PU was caught in 2017-2019 by Ferrari and in 2021 by Honda, where Verstappen finally had a car equal to Hamilton's (it was slightly better in qualifying trim) and he won.
Yes it's the car, but it's not "4 Seconds a Lap Faster" and it's debatable if Albon could even beat Perez in it, much less Stroll or Sargeant.
@@palm92 well of course 4 seconds is bullshit, just as its obvious Stroll and Sergeant wouldn't beat Perez in a thousand year. I mean come on, if they were in a competition between themselves I'm positive they'd both find a way to lose.
I feel sorry for George, he joined a team with the hopes and promise of podiums...
Yes, they kept him even a season too long at Williams…
"Mercedes aren't engine merchants!!!1 Stop calling them that!!!!"
Mercedes during any regs that aren't engine dominated:
maybe im not following close enough, but the mention of designed stalling of the floor at high speed makes so much sense
The problem seems to be the ride height aero effective window is very narrow. Seems their floor design is sensitive and only generates downforce very low ride heights. Seems it gets unsettled and loses effect. The suspension has the job of maintaining the rake profile but I agree with the point you made about the topography of the floor.
I have 3 thoughts:
1. Is their rear suspension still collapsing, like it did under the previous regs?
2. Is their problems a lack of mechanical grip, as a result of their very efficient aero grip they perfected under the previous regs?
3. Have they put too much effort into generating outwash, over aerodynamic grip?
What would you have to talk about if it wasn't for Mercedes?
Merc 14-20 is just the special engine then
Mercedes can't build a ground effect car or just simply can't understand the concept I don't understand why. Theyve got all the talent abd equipment.
The Mercedes era is over ! PU advantage gone & can’t spend $500M a season anymore
Dont forget last year, they had the car low to the ground was quick but they wore out the bottom floor so hard Hamilton got disqualified.
They risked that on purpose to get at least 1 win. Like they did in Australia by setting the engines on high to get at least 1 win… George’s engine exploded. They knew that was the only way to try and win A RACE.