Pathological Vulnerable Narcissism Case Study | Battle Between Grandiose and Vulnerable Narcissism
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 เม.ย. 2020
- This video answers the question: Can I analyze a case study involving pathological vulnerable narcissism?
Narcissistic personality disorder is a Cluster B personality disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. It has nine symptom criteria, five of which are required for a diagnosis.
1: Grandiose sense of self-importance
2: Fantasies
3: Special or unique
4: Requires excessive admiration
5: Sense of entitlement
6: Manipulative
7: Lacks empathy for others
8: Often envious
9: Arrogant attitudes or behaviors
American Psychiatric Association. (2013). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (5th ed.). Arlington, VA: Author.
Roberts, C. R. D. ., & Huprich, S. K. . (2012). Categorical and Dimensional Models of Pathological Narcissism: The Case of Mr. Jameson. Journal of Clinical Psychology, 68(8), 898-907. doi-org.mylibrary.wilmu.edu/1...
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Just shows how important a good upbringing and parenting is.
Not all bad parenting produce narcissistic children. -:)
My parents rn: 🙀...😾 snowflake😡
I had a perfect upbringing by a wealthy, rational, non violent, and honest married couple, my biological Mum and Da. They were described as "the most narcissistic two people I have ever known" by a clinical psychologist friend of the family with over 50 years experience. My good upbring and their perfect treatment fucked me up perfectly
"Just"
Theoretically.
It's no guarantee.
I loved this because it never once framed Jim as abusive or evil. He was a victim of his family and his own malfunctioning coping skills. The 'narcissism' lable can carry so much judgement and this might be the first video I've seen with a realistic example of it that doesn't demonize anyone. And he was getting better! So often I have heard you "can't fix" the cluster Bs but of course anyone willing to work can make things better. Thank you so much for these videos.
I agree about the label on narcissism. When people think of the word “narcissistic”, the first words they think of are probably “selfish”, “manipulative”, or “bad person”. In this case none of those words could have described Jim. He was simply a victim of his parents’ psychological abuse, but also a victim of his own thought process.
Yes. This is so reaffirming. I hate it when people say things like “you’re not a victim” .
I sorta agree with you as long as the person with narcissism doesn't hurt anyone then they are the victims but if they do abuse people then they deserve to rot in hell I don't care If you had a bad start in life because as soon as you hurt someone else then your automatically an abuser a lot of other people are abused but they don't go on to become abusers in the future
There are favorite Dr. Grande videos and then there are favorite Dr. Grande video comments.
Top of the class!
@@whytho1534
Unfortunately not all of us have the ability or the means to break cycles.
That’s not an excuse but it’s true.
I understand as a person who’s been on the receiving end of narcissistic abuse from childhood into motherhood.
Abuse really messes people up. I guess that’s why they call it abuse.
Love,
The struggling yet successful cycle breaker
His parents used him so badly. It's a shame how children are pawns in bad relationships
Kristi I agree my father used me as a pawn for his personal greed , desire , envy so I can relate .
@Bob Taylor I agree they can give empaths toxic traits too make them look like the narcissist .
My parents used me similarly. Though I think I turned out better than I should have. I was actually going to only relate my ex-girlfriend's/ex-abuser's story regarding her parents, but remembered my own as well. Hers used her as well, and I think they created a monster in her case.
@@Mike-xt2lh how? What exactly did your father do? How did he use you?
I’m pretty sure that my cat is a narcissistic vulnerable. He is grandiose. He continually thinks he can fly. He is entitled-demanding treats and affection throughout the day. He is also irritable and at times aggressive. He has broken spice jars and other things that I left out on the counter. Lots of broken glass! He bites too.
He was abandoned as an infant. I can only say I did my best, bottle feeding and giving love. I will continue to work on boundaries with kitty. Perhaps a pet psychotherapist could help him...or me.
A pet therapist might help both of you. Who knows?
I’m not even jk with this reply but there is a cat on youtube I believe names Chase if you want to check it out. It’s hilariously entertaining but also very interesting to watch supporting your point with your pet. He has an attachment disorder due to abandonment. I always adopt my pets asking specifically their abandonment story, what conditions they were found in, if they have siblings etc. It matters to me that I’m a good parent to my furbabies not just my real ones 😂 I wouldn’t doubt many abandoned pets display some serious behaviors from
a narcissistic injury and/or abandonment. They have feelings and personalities for sure!
😆
You cat people....uuugghhh! We're talking about HUMANS here....PEOPLE. Take your cat stuff to an animal behavioral study channel or something; it is NOT appropriate here.
brilliant ..transference!
There's a couple of things that bother me about this diagnosis. The mother is the abusive one, but she's also vulnerable. Jim's reaction to his mother as an adult (his sense of obligation for her combined with resentment with the way she treated him) is a classic covert narcissist/child dynamic. The discomfort the adult child feels over 'abandoning' their vulnerable parent is powerful and extremely uncomfortable. There's a recognition that this is unhealthy, but the feeling of responsibility combined with obligation is overwhelming. It's one of the most difficult trauma bonds to break.
Jim's behaviors of reaching out for help, then canceling or being a no-show, illustrate the conflicting feelings.
This isn't a 'source of narcissistic supply.' This is a strong trauma bond.
The other issue is wanting to be 'in the middle of the pack.' This is indicative of a person who grew up with a neglect/abuse cycle where, if they hid in their room and stayed quiet, they usually would be safe from abuse. This creates a serious discomfort with being "seen" by people in positions of authority, even for positive reasons.
Growing up in a chaotic home has the same result. Every time a child does begin to do well, their situation is upended and that puts an end to their efforts. So if a kid starts the 7th grade strong and is getting a series of good grades, mom goes to jail or they have to move or mom gets out of jail and he has to go back into the chaos and that school year is shot. The child never has the opportunity to really prove themselves. They *think* they know what they're capable of, but aren't sure. This creates the idea that they can accomplish a lot of they apply themselves, but also the fear that either they'll fail or life will rip it all away even if they are doing well.
From my perspective, it looks like a situation where the therapist badly missed cues and twisted Jim's situation. The therapist should've understood how the parenting style of a covert narcissist instigate these exact feelings, thoughts, and behavior patterns in the child. The therapist didn't understand how the sense of obligation the child feels would make the patient feel highly conflicted and didn't manage the topic of leaving the abusive mother well.
💯 Exactly! 👌🏼 I think in this case, the therapists' jobs were to put labels on the parents 🏷️ first, then concretely help Jim get a balanced life: Therapists should have focused on teaching Jim how toxic his family was.
Very well said. Agree.
Poor Jim; his experience is proof that counselors need to be on top of their own mental health before treating others.
That bit about Jim's father taking away his toys and giving them to his brother because he fought with Jim's mom made me tear up. I understand break ups are hard, especially with kids involved, but don't involve kids in your petty disputes.
This is criminal. Experienced similar incident first hand.
Ugh. My bfs mom is the devil. She has a "child called it" I like to say style of parenting. She takes care of 2,(real mother is druggy on the street), and the 1 is abused and ridiculed and has diagnosed aspbergers and was molested in previous homes. She tells him he's possessed, that he's very bad child, and she buys the other presents when the one is "bad". Only to punish him, that is it. Apparently the kids counselor has told her to not feed him when he's "bad" either. Which has led him to steal food from my vehicle at night, and that leads to more punishment. not to mention she's a cat hoarder. CPS has been there 3 times. They can't do shit. Its sick.
@@TryingNotToPanic Stories like these are why I think of social workers as saints. To know about this kind of abuse, see it happen, and not be able to really do anything about it the majority of the time. That would make me homicidal. But they somehow keep going just so they have the chance at saving some of these poor kids. It takes a truly special soul to do that job.
@@sahamal_savu my boyfriend gets so annoyed at me. Sometimes I just can rant for so long about it, but i guess its because we both know nothing WILL be done. I'm a HUGE animal lover. I even tried cleaning the filth, animal feces, old food. Etc, for her. Which led her to ban me from her home. It's very, very sad and anyone that sees that and legally aren't able to do anything, man...its very bad for my mental state. Let alone someone seeing it everyday.. i mourn for them because i feel like mourning the loss of those childrens lives.. it'll never be the same because, well, the world just isn't fair sometimes...
Katie,
You got that right. How immature that step dad was. That was very mean for him to do. They are too mean to have offspring.
I really like the case studies, it gives more perspective over disorders. Great video dr Grande !
This studies reviews are so educational and above all interesting, I really like what Dr Grande does for us.
The case study format is great as it humanises the people. Categories are cold and the category of narcissism can be read (at least by me) as ‘not a nice person’. I thought this helps us empathise with what made Jim the way he was. By having compassion for Jim, over time, perhaps he could perhaps learn to love and have compassion for himself and then for other people.
Very true. I tend to think about people with, for example, NPD as just being trapped by their own dysfunctions (thoughts, feelings, behaviours, traumas). Still as much human as anyone else, and still wants the same things.
@@snuffcarl maybe you're right, but most of them don't even admit they have an issue, and think therapy is useless
@@snuffcarl The problem is the narcissist is still extremely damaging to people that they prey upon. My ex narc probably doesn't believe she's a narc yet she has all the hurtful behaviours and it's not OK what she does to people.
He kinda *is* "not a nice person" though..
I think understanding, not compassion, is what we need more of in terms of dealing with vulnerable narcissists -like myself.
This is a very difficult case. I feel for ‘Jim’. He doesn’t seem to be a bad guy, just in a horrible family. Interesting case. The female therapist was horrible. I know you know this. Thanks for all you do.
@Spring Lemon Thanks for understanding that!
Well explained about the internal conflict between grandiose and vulnerable narcissism and that vulnerable narcissism can be caused by failing grandiose narcissism is great to know. Ty doc 😃🇳🇱
Wow, this hits deep. I grew up in a highly invalidating dysfunctional/toxic home where my parents seemed to love their drama and BS more than they loved me and my brother. And the rest of our family members seemed more interested in gossiping or enabling the dysfunction. I was the scapegoat/black sheep and my brother the golden child/hero. They focused most of their manipulation on me at first, but they gave up bc they see me as a lost cause. Now it's my brother who is the object of their game. They now expect him to fix all of their problems (incl. me) bc they see him as a hero. It broke my heart when my brother shared this with me bc he has plans for his life that don't involve fixing our parents' issues. I've been in therapy on and off for years and ran into walls. One of my therapists tried to pathologize the fact that I showed up to every appointment on time. She would often cancel on me (I was ok with with it) and the tried to get me to open up about my abandonment issues vis a vis her canceling on me often. 🤷🏻♀️. Again, I never had an issue with her cancellations. Now I'm dealing with my own dysfunctional/toxic/codependent behavior, it's painful, but necessary. A former partner thinks I'm evil and horrible, and they are in the right. I never learned how to be a good person. Thank you for not shaming or blaming or labeling people who struggle in this way.
The way you explain yourself is very helpful to us lay people. Thank you
Agreed, his style of presentation is very effective! We are lucky.
One of your more interesting episodes for sure. It would be interesting to know what the percentage of people who get into the field of mental illness actually have mental illness themselves that needs to be treated.
I’ve found more than one that suffered from some form of the health problems going on right now. Patients aren’t supposed to find out but medical people gossip- and not in a maleficent manner. Therapist get ill as anyone else.
I had fallen for a psychotherapist. It was hell. Beyond malignant. Later I realized my mom is a covert but no she's a psychopath. And my brothers too are cluster b. But it was my mom who was hard to recognize. She took me to a psychiatrist who said there's
communication problem in the family. Then there was a lady psychotherapist. My mom took me saying she is a friend. I was in tears when I realized my mom and that lady therapist has tricked me. Layer I wrote to the previous psychiatrist. I think he communicated with that lady. N my mom became quiet. N I moved to different city. But last year I ended up with my mom brothers again. N I figured out my mom is a covert narc. N she is the one who has actually raised a cult. They brought one lady psychotherapist in the house. I stayed calm. During talk the lady ended up sharing that her husband used to call her crazy. And she said I m so good.So my mom n sis in law went to a leading psychiatrist who in turn told my mom that she is jealous of me. They didn't share this with my brothers. So I played the game. When they called me crazy., I said let's go to this psychiatrist but this psychiatrist instead of helping me she said if you have figured out your mom is a convert narc and you are not traumatized, you get psychometric test done
I was so pissed off at her. So I wrote to the very first psychiatrist and the entire family went with me and he handled them. He said I m fine. He said you can't force someone to see a psychotherapist.
I’d say a surprisingly large proportion of therapists have a background of some dysfunction in their lives, hence the attraction to the profession. The annoying thing is, as illustrated by this case study, some simply aren’t on top of their own problems. At worse, some therapists ARE the kind of people that patients are trying to get help about. It is a disgraceful situation to have a therapist who, despite having got the qualification/s and the right to practise, simply doesn’t get them self completely sorted before attempting to help others. Therapists like that have no place in good practise and should not be given the responsibility of treating clients.
Therapist failed on many levels and it's services like these that cause people to avoid seeking treatment. Thank you for this insightful analysis.
Growing up in a narcissistic & alcoholic family you're not aloud to speak up or call anyone out on their bs . My father never had my back growing up especially when I got bullied & I was always told don't do as I do but do as tell you plus I was introduced to xxx porn at a very young age . Double standard & one sided relationship no should have to go through .
Mike - That is heartbreaking. It leaves you with a lot of dysfunctional baggage handed down to you and trauma work to do to recover. I hope you can find some healing. I hope you can separate from the dysfunction, however that looks for you, and that you find a more positive place of existence in your future.
I agree.
I got sort of the same history, but I ended up blaming myself and being codependent in the end.
Seeking others opinions and validations because nowhere did it felt safe.
I even ended up being assaulted intimately because my dad was calling me abusive names to his drunk friends who did not miss his "green light" comment on my presumed sexual conduct when I was 12.
Nobody should go through that. It breaks you at a young age but it continues on through adulthood where all of your relationships somehow loop around reproducing the same circumstances and hoping that it would go differently.
I both relate and agree with everything you two wrote. Thank you good luck god bless.
@@miguelhernandez4794 me too to you all. Thanks for sharing. Caroline, Scotland. ✌️❤️💪🙏
Agree! You guys are amazing, to survive that and to have such insight!
What percentage of Therapists don't recognise their own mental health issues/ diagnosis. In the same way people might look at suicidal people and their reasoning and see where it is skewed but the person feels like suicide is very rational.
Humanimal ya
@Hansol's Friend At the time and where I was trained, a doctoral student had to take a course in the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory,which was then the diagnostic gold standard,fairly early on in the program. We were required to take it ourselves at the beg of the course, then write up a case history and study including interpretation of the inventory results on ourselves.....this was followed up in sessions with our supervising clinician. Only then did we administer and interpret findings on clients and we had to present our findings first to,our supervising clinician. WE had videotaping of sessions then later in the field audiotapes we turned in along with written case notes. Maybe other doctoral programs are designed differently. No one got through our program with anything serious undiagnosed...that is for certain. The MMPI has what is a uniquely designed subscale to root out deceptive answer patterns.
Everyone has something they are dealing with...some incident in childhood or,some person they have encountered with whom they have had less than a totally positive experience at some point by the time they reach adulthood....this is just part of the human condition. We students were supposed to work out our issues such that they did not affect the therapy we give and a good clinical supervisor does just that.
For psychologists who later have some difficulty, they are supposed to avail themselves of professional therapy. For example, I was unexpectedly widowed at age 31 a couple of years after I received my PhD. I had studied widowhood and had had a widowed client when I was in training but the scant literature there was til that time, was on older widows. My issues and choices were going to be different than an older woman's. After about three mos after my husband's death, I went to my supervising clinician and paid privately for several sessions as a private non student client. Essentially he helped me make some really excellent planning decisions about my personal and professional life. He saved me from floundering around among the too many options I had at the time ...re where to live, type of practice, how to move ahead, future dating and personal relationships. I made some really sound decisions for ME because I had numerous paths I could have followed at that time, personally and professionally...he helped me make good choices, not by making them for me, but pointing out some of the variables I had not thought of...I wish I knew where he was today bec I would like to thank him for the wonderful career and life I have had that he helped by guiding me through my decision making process . Sybil Francis, PhD academic and practicing psychologist, ret.
My dad is an alcoholic therapist
Excelllent case study. Dr. Grande mentions Jim was "stuck developmentally" but does not provide any indication of what development stage(s). I would like to know what developmental stage model Dr. Grande follows.
Maybe Jim was not entitled when angry that the therapist was not in; maybe he was desperate at that particular moment. Maybe he was angry from before and dissapointed that he couldn't find the support he felt he needed. I find the adding of the "other 3" issues are a stretch. There is a haste to judgement that i do not like.
This really helps me understand the vulnerable narcissist... I've always seen them as Borderline with a narcissistic overlay and feel this is common. Your explanation is compelling... thank you.
Excellent analysis of the combined and often confusing effects of vulnerable and grandiose narcissism. Interesting case study. I have gotten so much out of Dr. Grande’s analysis of narcissistic personalities. I became involved with a narcissist last Fall and did not understand at first what was happening. I find these more measured analyses helpful as opposed to the negative screamers on u-tube. Narcissists are wounded human beings first and foremost.
Thank you.
I appreciate you addressing a case study in vulnerable narcissism, this was an interesting case and your analysis was excellent.
I have to say that you are a master of communication. You make complicated topics so easy to understand and digest. Your delivery is just impeccable. 👌🏼
*clinical vignettes* ...another fantastic addition to your "fun-and-fancy vocabulary mini-lessons"
thank you for the case studies, learning-by-storytelling is helpful.
Dr. Grande your a bonafide genius in my book! Your work is so critically important as well as of the highest quality. If you possess the awareness of how much of a positive impact your work has on those of us fortunate enough to audience then you would undoubtedly be very proud as you should be. This case study in particular was extremely relatable to me as I am sure to many other individuals who deal with NPD traits and its impact on our lives. You provide us the insight that we might have never received and that can add a meaningful long lasting benefit to us and our loved ones. Thank you Dr. Grande, from myself and the rest of your grateful audience.
Your uploading schedule is just superb, hehe.
Victoria Finnseth Stenersen what’s so funny? Huh?
Isn’t TH-cam part of his job?
I just don’t get people like you smfh🤦🏼♀️
@@food2430 What is the problem? I tend to add a laugh if I feel happy about something. Without the laugh it might seem as if I was being sarcastic or something.
Todd, a very interesting case study... Your statement that vulnerable narcissism is the result of a failed attempt at being a grandiose narcissist is very insightful.
I don't see entitlement when the client showed up at the clinic and the therapist was not there. I think that was a regressive act of "testing if the parent is there for him"
This was a very interesting case study Dr. Grande. I've been reading and listening to Sam Vaknin a lot lately as well and he also talks about the arrested development of narcissists. I can't tell you how helpful the both of you have been in furthering my understanding of this personality disorder. Thank you.
Sam is the bomb
Wow, both his parents were horrible people. Thank you this insight!
Watching this makes me appreciate my parents and grateful I saw the right way to parent. This man was let down by a lot of people but hopefully he finds the right person to give him the help he needs. I really enjoy the case studies they are so interesting .
Dr. Grande,
I think you may have the market cornered on being the premier You Tube resident therapist. This was another great presentation that I thoroughly enjoyed listening to.
Thank you!
GOAT of psychopathology 😌🙌
What I learned from this video is that therapy, like everything in the USA, is just a business. (I would think Jim missing appointments was part of his 'issues.' If narcissism cannot be 'fixed', do not take their money in the first place.) I find it interesting that health care is one of the few things you pay for regardless if the service is good or bad. People like therapists, who are dealing with the well-being of others, should be, IMO, held to a higher standard.
Damn, I'm seriously surprised you get out that many videos in a week...
Not right now though surely!?
@@HumanimalChannel Honestly, preparing a video, recording and editing does take a lot of time. But since he has studied the field a lot, I assume he doesn't need to do that much research.
It's awesome, but I hope he'll take some days off whenever he needs to (which I am sure he will). I know that if I had begun doing this I might have gotten a bit anxious had I not been able to do it the same time all the time.
@@The_Tortoise_and_the_Hare Yeah, that's when I had when I was making movies while going to school / writing my thesis.
Just knowing that you have a deadline after your regular work is quite stressful.
@@BrainsApplied I'm sure it is work and takes time, however I wondered how g is other workload changed during the current strange times. Some people may be working more, for example over phone/zoom etc and some would have more time right now.
Really interesting case, it captured my attention. It happened to me one time to reschedule an appointment, the fact it's taken in consideration by the therapist for the diagnosis makes me... Uncomfortable. I feel for Jim, some aspects of his life really touched me, especially the family situation... Hope the new therapist is a good one, he seems to be a really good guy and if his dream is to becoming a doctor... His therapist should encourage him to do it, it's difficult but he seems a guy who likes to study and work so...
100% off topic and pointless but...
I know this isn’t the platform but picturing you all happy and screaming on like a roller coaster is so innately funny as you’re so calm 🌻🎢 thanks for all your work and being so zen in these times and always. Appreciate you and hope you are well
Aww I almost didn’t post that for fear it would come off wrong, thanks so much for the heart! ❤️
I know what you mean , he seems to be in complete control at all times on these posts but he is the best out there !!
I agree...it’s weird and kind of fun to picture the doctor chilling out with friends, maybe busting a few moves on the dance floor! 🕺🏻👀
He has a great calming presence. I'd like to be a fly on the wall at Christmas, I see him getting all irate over Monopoly like the rest of us 🤣
Thank you for another interesting case study. Your remark that many narcissists will have a mix of grandiose and vulnerable narcissistic traits is an important matter to remember for therapists and laypersons alike. Thank you for another upload!
I feel bad for Jim, I hope he is getting better therapy now
Comment 8: 168 views, 153K SUBS.
Thankyou for your comment that boundaries are extremely important. That bad therapy causes damage to clients shows the importance of the integrity that has to guide the counsellor, his supervisor (s) as well as the profession as a whole. I appreciate your hard work, and especially the meticulous detailed case studies.
Have a good day, Dr. Grande !!!
Your case studies are definitely your best videos. Thanks Dr Grande! Saw much judgmental thinking during 3rd year md school psychiatry rotation. This really troubled me. Appreciate your detachment kindness and compassion for this young man
this one was hard to watch + digest fully, + ive taken a while to get through this one enough to comment.
i think one reason we are all so eager to create Vulnerable and Grandiose Narcissism categories is that, while not many of us can truly relate to grandiose narcissism, almost everyone can understand the case of someone like jim.
it makes it harder to vilify a mental disorder when you can relate to and fully grasps the reasonings and feelings behind the disorders and the way they manifest.
thanks for making this video. it's absolutely vital + much appreciated
I really appreciate your posting of this case study, Doctor. Thank you.
Wow, what a story!!!! Dr. Grande, you have explained this so well in layman's terms (compared to most doctors), that I can easily understand what's happened and why!! This is a brilliant gift, whether you know it or not, and I commend you for it with respect and appreciation. Ever since my own experiences with the various narcissists throughout my life, it's been very important to me to research and understand how to deal with the injury the exposure caused, so that I could grow and move forward in a healthy way. To have people like you who can help everyone understand these often complex subjects, it really helps our society as a whole to learn and grow. Thanks again most sincerely!!
Fascinating - it’s an insight into the behaviour of some
Another interesting video Dr.Todd Grande ! Sounds like my father & ex girlfriend wants us to give everything but don't wanna give back plus they wanna steal & vandalize property . My dad was diagnosed with bi polar disorder when I was 12 . Anyways your channel not to sound like a broken record has helped me alot .
Mike - It would be interesting to read about your father’s disorder. People my age have been taught many different things about Borderline Personality Disorders in men. The criteria changed so many times people gave up their studies due to frustrations. One was a priest I worked with. I was like “if he wasn’t patient enough forget it about me. “ I would appreciate it if it would hurt you to share more. If it does then just good luck from me.
@@qiuwbr091 bipolar is a different disorder than borderline tho. Borderline means you are suicidal, have sudden outbursts of anger and constantly experience inner turmoil (and the like) while bipolar means that you experience reoccurring phases of either depression or grandiosity and reckless behaviour.
Thank you Dr Grande. This is a very non-triggering way of describing my mother. I left when I was fifteen. She was a single parent and always skimmed over the important details of my twin and Is upbringing but did focus on grandiose ideals and values we should live by. I nearly killed myself staying in a residential youth work position working with teens with Complex Trauma. since then I have been learning more about developmental trauma for my own personal growth. And have come to understand more about my mother. This description shows me a dynamic that now lives within me but has been influenced by her internal struggle and the projection of that onto my growth and personality. I hope that because I got away earlier and am learning about this at 28 I don't kill myself trying to be someone I'm not.
I recently woke up to the fact that I’ve been manipulated by a vulnerable narc for years, and I’m looking for insight on Why & how I allowed this to happen. Like many others, this narc was neglected & abused as a kid. “They” are arrogant, entitled, grandiose, dishonest, & manipulative, yet a victim. So, I need to rescue victims (to feel valuable) & I ignore the fact that it’s all a game of manipulation.
He's got 4 people looking over him reminding he forgot the coversheets for those TPS reports. It's the kind of thing that'll make you work JUST hard enough not to get fired.
As long as this job allows you to keep your red Swingline stapler, I'm good with it ;-)
Dr. Grande's blend of wit and intellect is definitely a delectable blend of traits that make every video he provided us akin to a gourmet meal served at a five star restaurant, That said, I have to say that one thing he seems to really strive.through educating the viewer, is to remove a lot of the often unavoidable sensationalism attached to the many topics, and the involved people around whom they are centered. He manages to remain very engaging while simultaneously revealing the often mundane reality of subjects that have been far too dramatized. He relies largely on only his education and meticulous attention to detail to make himself fascinating, and it's all he needs. Keep up the good work Dr. Grande!
Doctor, you might not be super keen on that topic, I would like to suggest it either way. 🙂 I think it is super important for counseling psychology, equally for counselors and clients, and it was also for me personally: risks and (unwanted) side effects of psychotherapy/counseling. Great day everyone and a colourful day for the man in the gray shirt. 😊 🌼
This was a very interesting video and case analysis, thank you! Also, I recently found out about "self-defeating personality disorder", it's not in the DSM anymore, but in my reading it sounds like the only reason it was excluded was for political, not diagnostic, reasons... Could you do a video on this disorder, please? It sounds like it has some elements in common with Cluster B personalities.
Dr. Grande, could you do a really detailed video on malignant narcissists, especially those of the covert subtype? Also covering the minute details wrt how they differ from sociopaths and psychopaths?
miles ignotus -I think if you use the search engine there are a couple.
@@qiuwbr091 There are indeed many articles/videos on the Internet on this topic, but most of them aren't very well researched. And some of the research papers that actually go into the finer details, for example those by Kernberg, are actually not accessible to the public for free on the journal sites. There's so much confusion regarding how MNs differ from sociopaths and psychopaths. Even some therapists use those terms interchangeably. And that's not totally unreasonable either given how there are so many overlaps. On top of that, most articles seem to make a clear distinction between overt, covert & malignant narcissism as if they were three separate categories of narcissists. In reality however, a covert N could actually be more malignant than an overt one - the "covert" here simply refers to their hidden grandiosity, and a MN could very well have a covert expression of their pathological grandiosity.
Point being, I'm looking for a thoroughly & scientifically researched video on MNs, which takes into account all the latest research on the topic (and there aren't many when it comes to MN), minus all the fluff & confusion. I'd have happily done the whole research by myself, if the journal articles could be accessed by me without having to pay an exorbitant amount just for a "48 hour access" to the pdf. Having said that, I'll still try Researchgate, and see how that pans out.
Anyway, thank you for your kind suggestion.
miles ignotus sci-hub.tw will allow you free access to studies
Thank you, Dr. G., this was very interesting! I wish there were more (case) studies on vulnerable narcissism (and Cluster B disorders in general, for that matter), as the scientific literature available to laypeople usually doesn't incorporate behavioral manifestations.
I really like Dr. Grande and his videos. He has a very objective and very common sense approach as well as very intuitively rooted in science approach. For this case study though and some other case studies, I must say that they are not as convincing to me as Dr. Grande's other videos. I guess this is possibly because there is limited information available but not sure. I am not super convinced about this vulnerable narcissism in this guy. I don't see that much wrong with him or how he's using or manipulating others. The cancellations of therapy sessions I don't think is enough even though it does seem a bit manipulative. I think that the frustration that this guy had was justified though. He does have social anxiety and has been in therapy sessions which did not seem to serve him super well since he was young. I'm not sure if he started those willingly either. I would not think so. Are grandiose narcissists the ones who usually would not willingly go to therapy but the vulnerable ones willingly go? Is this just the split with this guy between therapy being useful to him and not useful, like a love/hate relationship? I don't know but I don't think there is enough here for a full NPD diagnosis for this guy, and I don't just mean for the grandiose.
His father's actions against him look so evil! And don't even get me started with the mother, damn...
Not taking away the blame he may have had for his own actions (or lack thereof) but the background certainly didn't help at all.
My ex is a covert narcisisst, and his story sounds similar to Jim's. His parents divorced when he was 10 and he was used as a pawn by both of them. His mom is quite domineering and manipulative, his dad is cold, distant and uncaring. He was shuffled back and forth between the two houses, and since he has 7 other brothers and sisters (he's the 4th) he was pretty much ignored. I feel terrible for him, but living with him was unbearable. You can't help someone that doesn't want to help themselves.
This is what I'm most interested In. This was very informative..and interesting. I know so much thanks to you!
The description and the analysis is just brillant ...thanks Doctor
So what is the likely outcome for a vulnerable narcissist? Do they ever mature out of it without therapy? Do they mature out of it WITH therapy? It doesn't seem as damaging to others as grandiose narcissism, but damaging to the self.
The vast amount of fantasy which is not the result of deprivation. Projective identification,dysregulation of emotions,idealization, devaluation. Lack of 1)judgment
2)insight 3)lack of anticipation of consequences. Poor or no reality testing. Impaired internal/external boundaries. Identity diffusion.
I do agree with your point!
Parents don't know it all, so it may
be good to have healthy parenting support!
All of us can always learn something, especially as parents, starting from the beginning!
Of course there are no guarantees, but a good upbringing is done with respect, love, boundaries/balance, consideration, EMPATHY, and healthy discipline!!
My heart goes out to the young man named Jim. Loosing a parent in childhood does so much damage to a kid. Jim got nothing but hard knocks. Its just so sad.
I find interesting the characterization in the beginning, with labels ranging from 'overly cooperative' and 'cordial' to 'cynical' and 'anxious'. It really shows that what could be a helpful and benevolent character can be stuck inside a stalemate of narcissistic patterns which developed only to fit the abusive environment of the childhood. What makes narcissists so unlikable from the outside is thus mainly the overt arrogance and that its symptoms undermine themselves the chances for recovery ("he does not want to be treated and so he does not deserve it"), while the (potential) personality underneath the surface is deeply hurt and disappointed, which deserves our empathy.
“Existing in a parasitic economy. They want to receive from others but not give anything!” - thank you SO much for that Succinct statement! Some of My in-laws are exactly this & it drives me insane watching them just take take take... 😳
Yup I've been with two narcissists and both of them were parasitic. The first was financially dependent on his grandparents. The next one was dependent on me
@@aurora8749 glad you’re out! It’s SO exhausting
Dude so spot on every time. At least in my uneducated mind it always makes sense. I appreciate what you do. I believe that my wife is a vulnerable narcissist. I've been watching your stuff for a couple of years now. Recently, she has emptied our apartment and took off with our daughters. I haven't heard from or seen any of them in months now. I'm alone and not really feeling much reason to live. Your work helps me. Thank you.
I have nobody to help me. She's isolated me and alienated me from everyone I love and took all of our money and resources. So, I can't even get a lawyer or whatever. I'm sleeping in my car, without my family. Without this woman that I love so deeply, who's done nothing but hurt and destroy me. I hate myself for loving her.
Please don’t give up. Get help. New National unfortunately mental health crisis 988 like 911 but for mental health emergencies
I'm not sure about failed attempt and grandiosity. I get it but, surviving a narcissistic upbringing is obviously traumatising. Anyone experiencing a narcissistic relationship is traumatised by it.
Being vulnerable would seem to be a normal outcome🤷? And "whining" about it would seem like a normal breakdown or maybe PTSD 🤷. I would assume that many vulnerable narcissists are just trying to reach a well balanced self-esteem and struggle with the triggers of PTSD 🤷. Don't know just wondering
The end makes so much sense in my own therapy. Thank you again.
I am grateful.... oh my. This really helped me Dr. Grande....thank you dear one! HI EVERYONE...HUGS FROM CANADA
I have always enjoyed your videos and this is no exception. I do have a question though on one of your comments. While talking about Jim taking care of his mother, 'without me she will die under a bridge' part, you stated that this power over her mother gives him narcissistic supply. Why can't it be just plain simple love and an expression of empathy?
Could it also be that his mother would make comments claiming she would die without his support and that hes afraid that he would be seen as responsible for it? If his mother is that vindictive and abusive to him already, would it be safe to guess she could guilt him into continuing to care for her by telling him "I will die if you don't " . I feel for Jim. In those family dynamics, dissent or individuation is forbidden and any attempt at it is met with punishment. I see alot of myself and some other people I've known in this vignette. Especially the school part. When you're neglected you don't really learn the skills necessary to function properly in the world. Growing up in a similar household, I was always anxious and afraid to directly ask for help as I would be yelled at or mocked for being weak. When I got to college I had it in my head that I wanted to be a lawyer despite not having a passion for law mainly to try to earn my family's love and approval. I really struggled with writing and while the school offered assistance , I was too afraid to seek it thinking I would get the same harsh treatment from the staff as I did my family. As a result, I took the same mindset behaviors Jim held, changing majors 3 times and almost flunking out. I feel really bad for Jim, he really is a victim of circumstance. It's disheartening to see how he was pretty much set up to fail in life due to his upbringing. I think as bad a wrap as narcs get they really don't understand that their behaviors are harmful or difficult due to not growing up with healthy models of interaction. Its basically abusing a kid in every way possible then sending them out into the world and expecting them to behave well adjusted. They seem like they're just trying their best with their limited understanding of how to get their needs and wants met in a healthy way. For all their poor behavior bad wrap, it's really sad for them.
You learn so much from case studies, and can remember details so much better than when reading terminology. Why is that.
"Overly cooperative, cynical, submissive, anxious, cordial, self criticising, humorous" I'm confused with this description cause it doesn't fit the narc At all, more of a narc child with avoidant PD
Interesting study.
The part about the patient talking of how he did not need the therapist, to the therapist, got to me, since I have observed that kind of behavior myself in a person whom I believe was having NPD.
To explain a bit better, she expressed that she would be her own friend to my partner when I attempted to communicate to her my own feelings about her behavior towards me, as well as a willingness to hear her side.
I considered her as an important part of my partner's life, out of respect for him, and that I outlined that I would appreciate it if she could consider me a friend too, as well as being able to be straightforward with me rather than avoiding or excluding me from having any interaction with her.
I figured that it was grandiose, entitled, and manipulative in the way that she worded my side of the story as being dramatic when it was just me reaching out and her declining the offer to discuss, but that study seems to confirm that it was probably true to her perception and pathology.
She was also diagnosed with social phobia and had the same pattern of behavior regarding academic worth...more pieces that fit.
Thanks Dr. Grande for the good work.
You helped me discern a lot of things, not only within me, but others, and I continue to watch your videos because I enjoy how you frame your content in a digestible and intelligent manner.
:)
Thanks for the video Dr Grande, His mother has a huge chunk on the blame and if he seriously wants a chance at the game of life he should get his disorders under control, yet again he's a narsisists and they dont see a problem there, truly a sad case.
Thanks for most interesting video content Dr Grande!
Does the therapist ever tell the client he exhibits symptoms of NPD? Would that be considered best practice?
I really like this one. It helps my compassion side of things. I'm interested to know at what point it's too late, or at what point/what catalyst sets of the extreme malignant behavior?
This is fascinating, thank you!
These case studies are incredibly interesting. Please share more
Thank you. I appreciate so much your educated analysis of vulnerable narcissism. Two of the most toxic people in my family died within 4 months of each other and my head is spinning as I retain this personality trait because of them and others that passed away earlier. Your guidance is helpful to my recovery. Peace to you and stay healthy!
I appreciate your well thought out and very articulate videos on these case studies, as well as your other videos re narcissism and overall mental health subjects. Thank you for what you do, Dr. Grande.
Dr Grande, would it be possible for me to set up a coaching session via Skype with you? I've been following your content for a while and I believe I'm in need of some counseling and honest feedback. It's not something I've done in a while, although I do have considerate experience in being counseled over the years. If possible, I'd like you to diagnose me for any potential personality disorders God Forbid, as I'm really struggling to make a real identity level change and dent in the universe and live up to my potential. Thanks once again for all the great content!
Great talk!
excellent as usual!
In what fantasy world do people start getting treatment at such a young age instead of quietly suffering for a decade or two or more first?
Jim had empathy for his abusive mother who stole his identity to buy drugs...
Jim wasn't jealous when his half brother got his Christmas toys...
Jim needed to speak to his therapist on different occasions when he didn't have appointments, but that doesn't mean he is a narcissist: narcissists don't assist therapies...
From my point of view (i'm a plant scientist, not a psychologist 😅) Jim's parents are narcissists...
Jim has been asking for help and should have gotten some concrete help to leave his toxic mom... Instead, the therapists focused on finding a diagnosis and label...🏷️
The second therapy wasn't more helpful to Jim than the first one... He was used to write a scientific paper and teach 4 interns about the practice.
I feel sorry for Jim, understand his frustrations and hope he's doing better.
The ones needing labels were his parents. They were abusive and criminals. Jim needed help.
Perfect example of useless therapies. I
I think this was my question. You’re the best, Dr. Grande!
When I meet people like Jim. I try to look at that child, hiding in the darkness of the mind, behind the walls of distrust.
Its a waste of time. Don't waste your Time. You will just be Used as 'supply'. I wasted 13 years. At this point, he will NEVER see his child again. He can continue mooching off his parents and feeling 'powerful' from playing with his mommy putting her on and off the toilet and bathing. That's what nursing homes are for, sick, disgusting NASTY 'people'. His 8 yr old child in tears for a father means nothing. Screw these 'sick' people.
My sister left me down & out, soon after my surgery. She never called my other sister when she had breast, cancer surgery, and thereafter, when she died. Her death was heartbreaking for me. Subsequently, my relatives ignored me.
I watch these videos like they’re E2020 classes 😂 I know they’re not but I take notes and enjoy them.
Hi Dr. Grande! Thank you for your consice and informative videos!
I was wondering, could you do an analysis of the trauma healing channel Roland Bal?
Thank you!
Thank you!
This is a tremendously difficult topic. I believe strongly that I was married to a vulnerable narcissist. Profoundly toxic to live with, but profoundly difficult to identify in a clinical setting. I would love to see more analyses of this topic.
Thank you Dr. Grande for posting this, a thoughtful explanation. Would your post your thoughts concerning clients setting boundaries with a therapist?
"Let's talk about your mother...in 15 months." Now that's a Freudian slip! Then immediately "terminated." I'd say Jim never received "good" therapy. Maybe therapy is a little narcissistic.
Best descriptor ever... parasitic economy.
Here comes a good one!
I'm still absorbing yesterdays information about vulnerable narcissism.
Imagine having your therapist tell you they can't treat you anymore because they have to "trim the fat" from their case load!! Reminds me of an episode of "The Big Bang Theory" where Stewart explains why he's not having a good day, "My therapist committed suicide. Mentioned me in the note."
I have been diagnosed with paranoid, antisocial and borderline PD. That was 1981. More recently I have been diagnosed as having PTSD. Yes I do, but I had to move on and become an adult with hard drugs and crime in the 1980's. Later on with no one to blame but me I was able to do things, see things and read things to become even more involved in trauma, violence, terror situations, non negotiable arguments with dangerous men and did I mention witnessing a fair amount of violence? Bipolar? or PTSD. Schizophrenia or PTSD. Vulnerable NPD? or PTSD? The last two look exactly the same to me, but that's just me
Maybe you get this a lot but I find myself listening to a lot of how you analyze people traits , personality’s , psych etc of course in your opinion. You’re very thorough and make more sense than most . I agree with you on most opinions are but disagree on very few. So I appreciate your expertise a lot.
I trust your opinion to ask what is the process to consider your out look or hire you to explore my story as to in payment of consultation or just available to make a remote few sessions on my story ...7 years of a slow process of my life going down with a fall of having it all in every aspect of life , health, happily married , solid job make a quarter of million per year to be loosing it all to facing imprisonment for the rest of my life from false love accusations of crimes I didn’t commit. Of the 7 years it would be a year ago to date when I started to unveil my self diagnosis(I understand I am not qualified to make but someone has to especially being the one who is living a nightmare) I believe I have figured it and before it’s too late can I review it And schedule a time with you!?
Thanks in advance,
JH
Is being irritated someone isn't at an appointment entitlement ?