The HARDEST Raid In Race HISTORY? - Nerub-ar Palace RWF Post-Mortem
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ต.ค. 2024
- Now that we're back from the Race to World First and Liquid claimed their incredibly clean victory. It's time for us to look at this raid, it's incredible tuning, and how the race turned out.
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Clip Credits:
• Liquid vs WORLD FIRST ...
• Echo vs. Mythic Queen ...
• Method VS Queen Ansure...
• Echo vs. Mythic Silken...
• Echo vs. Nexus Princes...
• Echo vs. Mythic Broodt...
• WORLD FIRST! Echo vs. ...
• Echo vs. Mythic Tindra...
• Echo vs. Mythic Smolde...
• Echo vs. Mythic Halond...
• Echo x Nerub'ar Palace...
• RWF Starforge Flashbac...
Echo pulled ahead of Liquid on exactly 1 boss (Silken Court), and that only happened because Liquid spent a bunch of time doing extra M+ and chores. Liquid took their lead back from Echo the moment they wanted to and every moment of progression before and after that Liquid was way better than everyone else. The degree to which Liquid outplayed Echo cannot be overstated. I fully expect the next RWF to look like a normal RWF (where Liquid and Echo are virtually identical and the winner will damn near be a coin flip) but this particular race was never actually close.
Facts.
While I struggled to understand what was going on during the fights, the show in its entirety was amazing as usual. You and all of the Echo crew always do such an incredible job.
I'm glad you mentioned Method, really proud of them. They fought hard and only lost to Echo by 1.5 hours. With 1st place being easily taken by Liquid, the fight for 2nd actually made the race interesting and fun. Let's also not forget 2 Asian guilds were right on Methods heels as well (especially 4th place), it's great to see more competition overall.
Method were really close, that’s true - however I feel like once WF was done by liquid Echo pulled back massively and took it « easy » or as easy as you can take it to take world second at that point, which made the gap with method artificially smaller.
It’s still very much a 2 man race for the foreseeable future.
I’d love to see a second US guild to enter the race.
They did not kill it 1.5 hours after echo it’s was over a day lol
@@allmight1799 no, method killed it a few hours after echo.
I'm amazed how many more tries it took for Echo to beat her. Both Echo and Liquid usually do it within a fairly close margin of attempts of each other..
Method copies every strat possible from the 2 best guilds. If they don't they will be 1 day behind at least.
THD saving the kill is my favorite rwf moment ever
imma stop you right there but driney had that essence on lockdown
Yeah, weird how Liquid just wiped the floor with everyone. No one even really came close to catching them. Gratz to Liquid and everyone else who took part!
Liquid was way ahead of every guild this tier and it’s not even close
Cheating and exploiting bosses helps alot 🤡
LMAO wut
@queenbrightwingthe3890 balding echo gamer dad take, using a tool tip as blizzard wrote it down isn't cheating lol, it's blizzard being a fucking joke. Cope harder NA>EU, echo has always piggybacked na until the last boss
@@queenbrightwingthe3890 cry in audio pls
@@queenbrightwingthe3890 they did the exploit for like 3 pulls and didnt make any meaningful prog with it, calm down bud
Absolutely amazing race. I'm a fan of both guilds but seeing Liquid play this much better than everyone was a different sorta awesome than seeing both guilds going at each other neck and neck. Seeing good WoW is just as amazing to me
Also knowing Medic from league.. he slotted in just fine. We don't often get to see that side from League casters so seeing him stretch his wings(or toes) here was great
viewership wasnt really down on na side. i think mostly because of dratnos. liquid channel got almost double the viewership it gets then the previous races.
Mike is more talking in aggregate - so bearing in mind Echo's stream, Max's stream (which is where most of Liquids viewership is) and the Liquid stream. Amirdrassil was such a tight race it had a lot more viewers overall.
The race was awesome. Liquid absolutely smashed it. THD picking up the essence that nobody else seemed to notice is what got them the kill. Echo seemed a bit off this time round, for some reason. Maybe they can storm ahead next time. I'll look forward to watching. Method are really starting to take some ground, too.
Driney was literally a second away from picking it up himself lol. This play gets so overblown for some reason
@@personalowlbear5897 The "some reason" being that a second away was too much, it would have killed the raid
The point being that THD wasn't assignated to it but still reacted to one of his teammate being late while still doing his own part of the job
The first kill of Ky'veza was so hype, I saw it live and it was honestly the most awesome kill of the raid.
I liked the Queen kill and the saves but the Ky'veza kill was just a lot more hype.
With Method finishing within 2 hours of Echo (even though Echo wasn't on form this race), my hope is we see Method really join the race next time and add another element to it so it isn't just Echo and Liquid like it has been since Method imploded.
It's hard to say how much the morale hit of seeing Liquid get the kill delayed Echo. It must be hard to remain motivated after you can no longer get world first, so the gap between Echo and Method is probably a bit wider than it seems. That said, Method has been ramping up the last few tiers and now they are within striking distance, and I hope the next race will see a true three-horse race to make it even more exciting!
First time I've watched the RWF. Was fun as hell to watch that progress.
While Amirdrassil was fun to watch the back and forth on Fyrakk, the rest of the race was kind of a push over. However, that victory was ultimately ruined by sneak.Lua cheating on the last boss.
Comparatively, this race was hella fun to watch from Brood onwards, and blizzard made it painfully clear that they will ban cheaters and exploiters moving forward.
People who think sneak.lua actually mattered are turboclueless lmao. They would have won regardless, and it's barely any different from pressing a macro to achieve the same results like everyone else did.
It has to be the hardest raid in terms of fights being actually killable at launch. Nothing was broken.
I also think it was tuned perfectly for these guys.
Ky’veza was kind of broken tho
INCHES 🦅 CUPS 🦅 MILES 🦅 RAHHH
good thing echo couldn't bring out their sneak.lua strat
You're turboclueless and have never raided Mythic xdd
defending sneak.lua is extremely cringe, from someone progging broodtwister in mythic right now-- so obv no HOF raider but any mythic raider understands that that shit was cringe af
It seems like those "moments" Mike referred to have historically been tuning walls where liquid just blasts a day at something that can't be killed and they get burned out and tilt.
Then Echo wakes up and they catch up because nerfs didn't come through yet. Having numbers tuned properly from the outset eliminated this scenario.
the flip side being emerald nightmare
@@krald8421 exactly, under-tuned means that echo doesn't get the chance. Fortunately, I don't think we've had much of that
Peach says the test for method will be can they make their own srats if they pull ahead, but I think they did show some of that. IIRC They were the first to use double blood DK on Broodtwister, which Liquid and Echo both adopted to kill it.
This was my first time following a RWF and I loved every second of it, can’t wait for the next tiers
Cringe.
Seeing Gingi lose is the best satisfaction ever.
Yeah that man's ego is huge, so seeing him lose is satisfying as hell.
you guys are gigantic fucking losers lmao
Great video! But I think there was a bit of an overestimation of Echo’s performance. They got crushed, and especially on reclear, that’s when it was apparent that liquid was way ahead. It took liquid 9 pulls to kill Kyveza, echo was on her for like 5 hours and tilting hard. I don’t see method being anywhere near these 2 guilds in the next race. Echo is gonna come back with insane passion.
Its pretty normal for Echo to scuff the reclears - the same thing happened during Amirdrassil. Its something they do need to fix but it isn't what cost them the race.
Our guild just started hitting Queen on Heroic, and she's smacking us pretty good. Hopefully we can get her down in less than 400 pulls!
400 pulls for Heroic? Huh...
As a casual mythic guild we were somewhat surprised how much of a hard time queen gave us, but it's really only phase 1 that's tough. You can do it!
I think the "mental" aspect you touched on is probably a really interesting thing that some university doctorate boffin could have a field day looking into. As you mentioned, Echo had a day without progress, which disheartens them and conversely boosts Liquid's efforts when they wake up. Similarly Echo clearly lost a lot of drive once Liquid got the world first - as could be seen by how apathetic they were when they got their kill - little to no nerd screams just "we can go home now".
But where I think it gets more interesting is Method, while they're in the "Race to World First", realistically they know they're the third place guild until they prove otherwise, and 2nd place is still "progress" for them in their current form. Unlike Liquid and Echo who its either "first or fail", Method didn't necessarily need to be as disheartened when Liquid got the kill, As they could still get second place, or even "third but not as far behind this time" etc. So potentially knowing Echo was disheartened at "losing", Method could've had that boost of "ooo we might be able to beat Echo still"
I quietly disagree on the red vs blue point. and also on the wider viewership too but hey we need the proper analytics (viewer: do you play wow and what type of player are you etc) which probably don't exist! This was my favourite race I've watched so far and I think the audience for this event is kinda niche anyway no? None of my friends watch it and they all play wow. Big props on both main broadcasts from Liquid and Echo I watched a little bit of Method too but I really enjoyed it. Best by far. I want to see all three guilds neck and neck next race.
thank you for talking to new players when they join the team
OK, I’ve been away from WoW since the beginning of Bfa, and now that I’m back and I haven’t seen a Preach video in quite a while.
I have to say you’re looking good, you look fit, you have aged well my friend 👍
Preach covering WoW! Now this I love! Bigup!!
I love how a bunch of players getting banned for exploiting is just "having some issues at the start" lol XD Peak wow brain.
yeah 😂
Even according to echo members that wasnt issue at all as it happened during hero week. Their issues at the start was sudden tank change and zaelia getting removed few days before raid.
The exploit bans were a minor inconvenience. Losing a staple healer because a third ex girlfriend came forward saying he had beaten her was the real damage.
I want to see you come cast for liquid. You and dratnos together with max would be an absolute blast.
I'm very excited to watch the next one. Liquid was on the juice this time. They really crushed it. Last time they did so well echo went nuts the following tier, and with method back in, it should be an awesome showing. I am a bit disappointed echo didn't get their twist of fate they usually do where they lock in, but there's next time. I didn't have too much trouble seeing what was going on, but im on a higher end of play with my guild, so I'm probably biased.
Queen is easy.
Even with the nonsense comps for some bosses, it was good to see that there were no massive nerfs needed for the top guilds to progress.
Headstart was almost completely erased by maintenance this time, too.
Would really like to see another NA guild running for world first as well. Would be a great viewing experience to see 4 guilds going at it.... also, those chineese guilds were not far behind. Wouldnt be surprised to see them move up at some point as well
insane that it took ID and then fat shark yes nearly 10 days to kill queen after the top 3 guilds.
I would really love to see them include a *World First* mode to Mythic Raids, where we can play the raid with all the bosses the way they were when they were defeated the first time, before any post-defeat nerfs
As you can see, no one is enjoying the raid or keys because they are making the game for the 1% of players again and locking out over 90% of the player base. Before today's hotfix, no one was able to get past 619. This was a horrible design, and it makes another good argument to remove Mythic altogether, tune heroic correctly, and raise the difficulty of normal.
@@Lordlt82 This is one of the worst takes of all time.
Imagine how crazy it would be if there was a "world first" mode where they snapshot the world first clear (gear/comp/boss stats) and they made it a replayable instance where you could choose who to play as and it tracked your stats to compare how close your performance was to the world first player.
@@Lewlies Fyrakk only had kills on mythic around the 600s vs heroic with over 12k and 16k on normal no one really cares for it
@@Lordlt82 I am having a ton of fun in keys and me and my buddies are doing 10's... Just because the most casual people can't get mythic gear doesn't make the game bad. Blizzard doesn't owe you anything. Get good or you don't get the best gear. I don't think its a good idea to drop the gilded's to 8's because honestly ima get creatures in my 10's with inflated gs... It's annoying. If i can't use gs or Io to gauge the random I'm choosing to bringing to MY Key/Dungeon what am i suppose to use? So many people have been crying about the gearing and its only because blizzard handed u all heroic gear from delves that you think u deserve Mythic track gear...
i just want to say that as a first time watcher of Race to World First, i didn't think it was hard to watch at all. Maybe that isnt the common consensus but i felt like i understood the mechanics and why people died. The casters of Liquid and echo did a good job explaining some of those mechanics and strategies like the the tanks sometimes dying on purpose etc
I was not expecting a hockey reference from Preach.
Liquid absolutely cooked this tier, had several reasons but I think the fact they never hit a real tuning wall where they "wasted" a day of prog on an impossible fight definitely was one of them. Mostly tho they absolutely steamrolled, was a fun lil extra treat watching race to world 2nd between echo and method, even tho method only pulled real close after the first kill where echo was clearly playing dejected.
I am a person who enjoys pugging Heroics and getting curves in week 1, I love the progress when doing group content etc.
From all the Heroics, for the past few years, Queen was really a 10/10 difficulty - 1 person fails a simple mechanic, the entire raid is dead.
The closest experience I had was Sire Denatrius, who took me around 120 pulls on heroic back then with pugs to kill, compared to Queen that took me almost 240.
Anyway, good tier and 10/10 end boss.
Heroic raider and I'm still not 100% clear on some of the mechanics on the last boss and I watched nearly every pull from Liquid and as much as I could with Echo. Great raid, for sure. But I agree.
Preach what is your secret to your amazing weightloss? Amazing to see you so in shape!
better diet probably
Eats better and goes to the gym regularly. No secret just effort and drive.
aaaay there's our boy Danwar!
The only time echo ever got “ahead” was for 1 night on silken court.
This race was sick!
Great stuff Preach!
Looking very handsome, Preach!!!
Do guilds want to still do all of the prep work side? Imagine if both teams were given BIS resources prior to "Race Kick Off" then it's just based on skill. Teams could register in advance for access to an armoury for their toons and just worry about race, instead of farming for hours, getting drop donations, real life cash spent. Taking the RNG out a bit for pure skill on display for each team for an even playing field.
Can't speak as to Liquid's prep but for Echo at least they did like 16 characters each, and in terms of split runs (bearing in mind there was heroic week this time) there was around 3000+ unique helper characters.
Some of the raiders enjoy the gearing process for their characters, but others like JPC and THD have said that they would 100% support doing the race on tournament realms with no gear rng or gearing at all.
@@Skwiddd Thanks for the insight. Yeah I'm on the side of tournament realms.
I don't really like how this was basically just all about Echo echo echo except for a few comments on Liquid. Yet if Echo win it's just nothing but glowing praise for them the whole video. I think there should be a lot more focus on whatever guild won the race in these videos personally. It just makes more sense.
His audience and preference is to EU, so I think he will always prefer talking about the EU guilds over any NA team.
Which is sad because Liquid really stood out this tier, and I think a general super fan of the race like Mike should’ve talked about more of what they did instead Method or Echo.
100%
It's not meant to be a neutral recap, it's meant to be a recap of Mike's experience. And he's an echo caster, so was able to know everything about how their prog was going at any time vs Liquid who he could only look at a little bit.
Preach was present at Echo facility so he has much more insight into Echo. What else can he say about Liquid other than what everyone else could see, "yeah they played really well, were ahead of Echo all the time and comfortably won the race"? Everyone knows that. And he pretty much said that at the start.
He casts for echo…
Having Ghaz on the wall is a win and ensures you'll go faster if you wear red. Need to toss that Thousand Son in the bin though. Magnus and his legion have always been trash. Get yourself a proper plague marine up there and if they aren't available then get a zerker.
I think saying this is the most difficult raid ever is a bonkers statement. Sepulcher is still untouchable in that regard. Itd be like if after kyveza there were 4 more fights of that level of difficulty and tuning, not 1.
Seeing Scripe say after the race that they "knew" they were in bad shape and would lose, that feels wrong, and just bad. Like come on, what are you really trying to say. Bad vibes.
Insane play from Liquid, great race to watch overall.
theres always sore losers in echo or liquid if they lose the race
I wish we would get more "gimmicks" bosses with vehicles or dragonriding. Sure they may be free loot after you figure out how to do them but that's a granted for most bosses anyway.
I am a Liquid fan, but, I love seeing the commendatory comments by Preach and a lot of Echo fans in the comments. A race well ran by, both, Echo and Liquid and to see talent recognize talent is something I think these two guilds needed. I think a lot of times sportsmanship gets kinda thrown to the wayside a lot (on both sides) and recognizing outstanding play by the competitors is a virtue slipping in todays competition fields. Well played Preach and Echo!
Love the ghazkull poster
I feel like its super hard to get anymore teams really in the race due to the amount of financing these teams need to run their facilities and pay everyone so they dont have to go to work.
More mechanics than a Firestone Tire shop
God damnit you have gotten thin since the last time i same one of your vids bro!
If you wanted to thin out gratz otherwise i am quite worried about your health brother!
The pickle clip is wild
Looking good Mike
I would love to see a way earlier reset for asian servers for better competition. I don't know if there is a good sweet spot for EU vs. US active hours.
Raids should be made to give the best experience for the players actually in game, with readability for the causal watcher a far distant priority. If the readability of a spell effects helps make the raid more fun or challenging for the players, sure change them, but i dont think raids should be made with streaming in mind.
Maybe it’s just because as an American I root for Team Liquid to win but I didn’t find it difficult to watch. I was turning it on every day around noon my time (9am California time) & having it on until midnight to 1am my time. Sadly they killed it at like 3am after I had gone to bed.
About 2,900 guilds worldwide have killed 1 or more mythic bosses. I was expecting to see a couple thousand guilds at one or two bosses, just to get the easy loot each week. Guess not.
What do you mean, the best tuning ever?
the first 4 boss fell instantly, even for my meme world 200 guild.
Broodtwister have some of the strictest comp requirement for a 5th boss. at one point 700 guilds were stuck on him.
Princess had to be 1-tanked and vantus'd by RWF guild.
BOE trash farming is the most effective thing to do for anyone between world 25 and 750 for the first 2 weeks.
which part of this sounds like good tuning?
He's talking specifically about the race to world first. In that the bosses were tuned to only just be possible requiring absolute optimisation from the guilds.
@@TheChunkeyNinja again.
first 4 boss instantly falling over.
one tanking princess.
silken court would also be one-tanked if blizz didn't buff the buster 3 time in the same day.
there is nothing properly tuned in this raid.
14:50 Back when warriors used to be pumpers :O
I mean, you're talking about mathematical precision, I'm a simple heroic raider and I'm gonna tell you that with as mechanically precise and mechanically intensive as silken court and queen ansurek are on heroic on top of the mathematically precise tuning for them to stress out healers they should absolutely be dropping myth track gear on the heroic difficulty. They do kind of concede the point with them dropping the mythic level crests on the heroic difficulty.
Uh no HC court is a joke my guild 1 shot it cause only 1 rope needed makes it a joke
Ansurek is also easy just have 2 melee save CD for each add spawn/silken tomb
@@Blind_Smithy You do know that people beside you exist and they have experiences that aren't yours, right? Has that contrary impulse of yours ever actually helped you in your entire life?
I'm looking at our parses right now, we have 3 99s (pink parse) and 5 orange parses and 4 purple parsers, and I gotta say your math doesn't check out. Those two encounters are both mechanically and numerically more difficult than any of the ultimate or penultimate encounters from the past 3 tiers on heroic.
I appreciate the fandom without being a toxic fan, i hope more people (regardless of your fav team) learn you can be unbiased and enjoy good play no matter where it comes from.
right that FF ref got me
playing these types of raids with addons is like doping in the olympics...
is there a meme i missed with the pickle?
I'm so glad I did not come back. I knew they were going to make the raids even harder. Huge time sink avoided. Bullet dodged.
Lets go!
Less viewers for the race ... who cares, blizz finally made an amazing end boss with amazing mechanics
nothing compares to mythic kiljaeden still.
loosing a healer just before the race has to be factor. I understand why bringing the subject up on the video is not appropriate . The discourse around the circumstances is not something I want to touch, but don’t think the impact it had can be ignored
I really hope they don't use AI to simulate and balance the raids, taking human error out of the equation would be very boring.
Does anyone understand 1:40 wtf he’s saying here? Hardest Raid ever, then a lot of incoherent gibberish + a cropped excel sheet with no context? You can’t see the titles on the colloms I’m assuming this is pull count, but wtf are those last two colloms supposed to be? I rewatched it 3 times, I can’t figure it out. “And there was nothing weird like Halondirs, which came out of nowhere”. Wtf are u talking about here.
Yep that looks like pull count per boss. there are more bosses in some raids so the row is longer on some. The columns would just be last boss on the right, before that break where two more columns show up. In the two column section, that looks like total pull count and average pulls per boss.
The gibberish he said was something like "both of us almost beat Sepulcher..." this is in reference to the last raid of Shadowlands and he seems to be suggesting that they both almost beat the whole raid in the first week, but he didn't finish his thought.
The Excel sheet is number of pulls per boss and the last 2 collums are total pulls combined (1003) as well as average per boss (125.38). As for what he is saying I have no trouble understanding him
I think it was unique
Never clicked so fast on a video before 😁
I honestly do see the appeal of RWF streams. I tuned in on Broodtwister and Ansurek for like an hour and I was bored to death. The only redeeming quality were casters that were entertaing but gameplay wasn't at all, costatnt breaks, constant splits... like mythic opened, I go on echo stream and they are doing heroics for next 2 days... like we had 7 days of splits already... anyways Im definitely not a target audience.
RWF is just a 5th(?) difficulty.
wat? have you forgotten Tomb of Sargeras
In terms of balance, gearing and raiding, this is one of the worst thing Blizz every made...
surely the hardet raid is Sepulcher of the First Ones
Ky'veza was probably overtuned, but other than that, I agree it was very very well tuned. I'm from the States, and it was good to see Liquid win, but for the health and excitement of RWF I'd love to see Echo answer or even Method rise from the ashes. Competition is always exciting
I honestly don't give a toss about the race lol BUT I spend a lot of time in several channels of both teams casters so it's really great to basically get a full day of caster-filled content while both teams get coverage! Echo's caster team was great and Liquid's caster team this time especially was so fun to watch. Yall make the race for some of us, so thanks for that. :)
Viewership won't be the highest if the world first happens when 90% of EU is asleep.
as a person who quit retail in Sl i can sum up whole tier in 1 sentence - draw lines while avoiding the lines. Someone at blizzard sure does love drawing lines.
wow rwf is so resident sleeper
Is it ever the hardest raid or just poorly tuned?
Nah 8 bosses is perfect just tune better, 10/11 bosses will be alot harder for these short seasons
Classic Naxx...?
Nice hair
Hot take: every single boss in Mythic difficulty should be as hard - if not harder - than Ky'veza. Make it so only the sweatiest of sweaty nerds can complete it. That fight being as hard as it was and forcing guilds to actually put some effort in, was easily the most interesting part of RWF. Also, being one of the mid bosses is perfect placement. It served as a wake up call for the top 3, and as we all saw Liquid took that shit and ran with it.
Hardest? Liquid plowed right through this raid, Eco and Method just didn't have it this time. Liquid was the better Team this tier. the Race was no were near close.
man what is with every content creator not knowing how to change the mic peaking.... it wasnt an issue for so long and now its everywhere.....
I also don't think it's fair to compare this tier to Amirdrassil because it was the final tier of that expansion. I think each tier can be fun and challenging, but the final tier should always have that edge IMO.
The tuning that Blizzard did utterly shocked me. But as a fan, I have to say Amirdrassil was the better race for viewing. Literally going from Liquid's to Echo's stream back and forth, back and forth, because this next pull could be it. That shite had me on the edge of my seat. I can remember being in liquid's chat. "Just go! PULL PULL NOW. Echo is at (insert percent). This time around i'm like ok. This boss is aids, how in the world is Liquid going to pull this off? Oh wow, they did it. I go over to Echo's stream *bites lip* oof they are that far behind?. I go over to Method. Oh wow, they there already?
So I'm hyped for the next race. If blizzard can continue this tuning, and Method and Hot Pot Heroes, can both kick it into another gear? Oh man, I could see myself switching between 3 streams, and waiting for someone to update me on HPH's progress. That as a viewer would be amazing.
Paragon
I've lost interest in raiding to be honest, delves are fun, and unlike other content for solo players, the gear rewards are worth it!!!!!