Hearing someone from a learned background discuss something I have only assumated from decades of incidental learning is reassuring what I have been doing in my crossover setups! . A good follow up to this would be correct electronic crossover implementation. . Another great lunchtime chat!
One of the best clips at PS audio so far... we can see the big progress in Chris'es elaboration. It suits him better to talk with someone instead looking at the camera. Congratulations to both Paul and Chris...
The lunch chat format has a nice informal feel to it,like a couple of enthusiasts just shooting the breeze.I enjoy them.Speaker design is all about compromises,with various strengths and weaknesses in different applications and configurations.Even when you buy a mega bucks design,they still have to endure compromises that the physical limitations will ultimately dictate.More refined materials and applications will eek out some performance gains,although with speakers having the highest distortion and colouration levels within the audio chain they will likely remain the most subjective element to the end user too in practice.
Oh, there's so much more that I wanted to hear about. Crossover design is the true magic in my opinion when it comes to speaker design. Just as Paul has mentioned before during the development of his new speaker, they are constantly tweaking the crossovers to get the sound they want. It's one thing to divide the frequencies, it's another to get the speaker to come alive.
Something no one ever seems to talk about with respect to even order (12, 24 db electrical) crossovers is the advantage of having a low DCR inductor in parallel with the voice coil. This preserves motor control of the voice coil and helps prevent ringing.
I wonder if Chris goes into more depth when he's talking to Paul because he assumes Paul understands him, as opposed to when he was talking to the camera and maybe addressing it to a less advanced audience.
Maximum respect for the guy who talks about crossover, but I'm not sure that 4th order crossover are the best choice because of its phase issues. The sound of the speaker is hugely dependent from the crossover topology. Troel Gravesen, who is a well know for his DIY projects, prefers LR2 topology. What do you think about it? Any experience?
I dont know electronics as well as the engineers that build crossovers but, how is the circut resonance delt with between a capacitor of the hightpass filter and the inductance of the driver motor? Or is the resonant frequency so far out of the frequency range being delivered that it dosent matter?
A discussion on the need for quality crossover components would be nice. I completed a three way crossover last year with a 24db slope where the cost per pair was $1600. $1600 was a bit more than the cost of the drivers, but worth it.
How the hell did you arrive at that number ?...And did you even compare (blind test) or measure your unnecessarily expensive "quality crossover components", against something more sensibly priced ?... Any component that measures it's specified value is as good as it gets.
Ballpark, you spent $1400 too much. What did such expensive crossover components improve? Can we have A vs B measurement data along with your subjective analysis?
You paid 1,600 for crossovers More than the cost of the drivers??? Well I get it My tires cost more than my car Lol Companies that sell 50,000$ audio cables and 700,000$ speakers will survive (as long as there's audio fools.
Ridiculous and I doubt even true. A $30k pair of speakers from a greater speaker maker wouldn't even spend that much on crossovers. Half the cost of a speaker of that price is making up for R&D and advertising and distribution etc. Either you are an idiot or full of S.
Infinity RSa's have a 10" mid bass. First it fires the bass tone and then out of phase it fires the mid range into a 10" woofer. I would like to know, why crossover's at all? Why not run woofers, mids and tweeter with separate speaker leads to a EQ type thing to be a real "active" crossover?
Nice mic for an open air sound even if fidelity isnt great. Paul sounds like hes over my left shoulder, Chris sounds like his voice is coming from his face. Also, Chris reminds me of my uncle, Chris. Same facial hair, same hair cut, same eyes, same face shape, almost identical voice, same name, and he aslo talks with his eyes and brow rather then his hands like Mr. Brunhaver here. Uncanny really.
Another reason to audition the TLS-1 by HHR Exotics which is an updated Ohm F which is a single omnidirectional driver with a frequency response of 29 to 22,000 hertz and does not need a crossover, it is time and phase aligned. It was once called the best speaker at any price.
There is no doubt that Chris knows what he's talking about but for a complex subject like fourth order crossovers I would like to see this information in writing so that I could digest all of this information it at my own pace.
The best drivers are cube audio 2.4 Tesla magnetic field saturation higher than any other speaker in existence it is a single drive and doesn't need a crossover you should get one Paul and try and out make a speaker out of one they can get it down to 27 Hz at a 3 db roll off with remarkable low distortion I think it is the best driver inexistence at the moment
From my experience, a Crossover optimized for mediocre Drivers, makes for a "better" Speaker; than a Speaker with the Best Drivers, But were the "designer" ( probably through inexperience) doesn't understand the concepts stated in this episode.
The problem with a lot of full range drivers is that they have a mechanical crossover. One voice coil, two cones (often one wizzer) and a mechanical crossover. A true crossover-less full range has only one cone/diaphragm.
cbrunhaver Hi Chris! I’m a fan of your talks. I’m very interested what your vision is on how to drive a loudspeaker driver (controlled voltage, power, current or even charge), the nonlinearities in the voice coil impedance and current distortion. Can you make an episode on that? Or (refrased) on the impact of output impedance of the amplifier (much smaller than the nominal impedance, about the same, or much higher, more than 100x) on the performance of drivers.
Grandinote could be your next guess. They're using like 36 mid-range and around 12 tweeters for one column only. They keep using the simplest cross over for the tweeters, so to keep the speakers close to the full range philosophy. REMEMBER the axiom : no capacitor in the power line. See your discussion about capacitors quality.
Line arrays for home use are a poor approach especially if you don't listen at loud levels. While the load is shared and driver distortion is kept quite low, you now have intermodulation distortion and time alignment problems. This reduces clarity a bit.
@@thunderpooch Think we'd be OK & happy with a graphic confrontation of THD & IMD of both speakers family. And OK for a reading at home levels. We miss that kind of data sometimes. Some do well : see Serene Audio and their nice Talisman mini speakers complete study ! www.sereneaudio.com/drivers
Active speakers with an optimized amp per driver and cross-over filtering using DSP is the future of a highest performing digital audio system. It also allows for other tweaks towards much better tonal balance and phase optimization. It’s what makes the KEF LS50W sound better than the KEF LS50, for example.
@@graxjpg There is a giant leap forward possible in calibrating a speaker's performance when you have a DSP to do it in rather than a few capacitors, inductors and resistors. It's also trivial to do tweaks towards personal preference e.g. adding a few dB where your ears need some help due to aging or whatever preference you have incl. compensation for your hearing's natural Fletcher Munson sensitivity.
Qorax Active audiophile speakers are still cheaper on the BOM than if you compare with a similar passive system with separate boxes and cables. A good example is KEF LS 50 vs KEF LS50W.
@G Guest The drivers in headphones are a heck of a lot closer to your ear. Therefore they do not have to move much air. You are correct that these small drivers are capable of moving at 40 Hz, but I would think that the level of sound across a room would drop dramatically because of the lack of air motion from the tiny cone. A longer throwing voice coil helps, but I doubt that any four inch driver is going to deliver 40 Hz at a -3 dB level in an average size room. I could be wrong.
@@swinde surface area multiplied by excursion capability gives you an idea of bass performance. Excursion alone or surface area alone don't tell the full story. But going too far with excursion or surface area does lead to sloppy distorted performance.
Certainly true...but sound quality should improve in theory...? That was my ultimate point. I have heard some amazing commercial line arrays with 3 and 4 way X overs ... a high quality crossover and associated amps might be killer.
I grew up listening to 8" full range Philips speakers, those which are still being produced by others. Skip to 4:45 to skip the unboxing here th-cam.com/video/3EPAyBFpRVk/w-d-xo.html
@@nabildanial00 I use DEQX and they have some resources on their promotional videos. If you wanted a cheaper alternative, you can use miniDSP units that can handle FIR filtering and then use Eclipse to design the filters. If you want just a conventional minimum phase filter for the crossover then I'd recommend the Hypex plate amps that have a DSP crossover on them.
A long and laborious way to say (most drivers today are garbage and need a lot of crossovers to sound OK. OTHER than that, this video was ok, I just wish this guy was more likable.
Chris seems like a nice guy to me,although Paul comes across as more at ease in front of the camera. The lunch format generally feels a little more relaxed in my view.
These lunch talks are becoming my favourites.
If those bs talks are becoming your favorites then you must be bored. 😅
@@kcjones7634 wood board or bored?
Hearing someone from a learned background discuss something I have only assumated from decades of incidental learning is reassuring what I have been doing in my crossover setups!
. A good follow up to this would be correct electronic crossover implementation.
. Another great lunchtime chat!
One of the best clips at PS audio so far... we can see the big progress in Chris'es elaboration. It suits him better to talk with someone instead looking at the camera. Congratulations to both Paul and Chris...
The lunch chat format has a nice informal feel to it,like a couple of enthusiasts just shooting the breeze.I enjoy them.Speaker design is all about compromises,with various strengths and weaknesses in different applications and configurations.Even when you buy a mega bucks design,they still have to endure compromises that the physical limitations will ultimately dictate.More refined materials and applications will eek out some performance gains,although with speakers having the highest distortion and colouration levels within the audio chain they will likely remain the most subjective element to the end user too in practice.
Great work on adjusting the angle of the camera. It's much better
Oh, there's so much more that I wanted to hear about. Crossover design is the true magic in my opinion when it comes to speaker design. Just as Paul has mentioned before during the development of his new speaker, they are constantly tweaking the crossovers to get the sound they want. It's one thing to divide the frequencies, it's another to get the speaker to come alive.
I definitely learned something new today
Please tell
What did you learn🧐
@@kcjones7634
Failed attempt at being cute......
The more I hear about passive XO's the more I like active ones ..! They really are the best you know ...
That's been my motto for 40 years.
Something no one ever seems to talk about with respect to even order (12, 24 db electrical) crossovers is the advantage of having a low DCR inductor in parallel with the voice coil. This preserves motor control of the voice coil and helps prevent ringing.
Definitely a step up in content complexity.
I wonder if Chris goes into more depth when he's talking to Paul because he assumes Paul understands him, as opposed to when he was talking to the camera and maybe addressing it to a less advanced audience.
Maximum respect for the guy who talks about crossover, but I'm not sure that 4th order crossover are the best choice because of its phase issues. The sound of the speaker is hugely dependent from the crossover topology. Troel Gravesen, who is a well know for his DIY projects, prefers LR2 topology. What do you think about it? Any experience?
I dont know electronics as well as the engineers that build crossovers but, how is the circut resonance delt with between a capacitor of the hightpass filter and the inductance of the driver motor? Or is the resonant frequency so far out of the frequency range being delivered that it dosent matter?
Not sure if I'm only speaking for myself, but there is a whole lot more I'd like to know about Crossovers. hint hint
True
A bit click baity.
A discussion on the need for quality crossover components would be nice. I completed a three way crossover last year with a 24db slope where the cost per pair was $1600. $1600 was a bit more than the cost of the drivers, but worth it.
How the hell did you arrive at that number ?...And did you even compare (blind test) or measure your unnecessarily expensive "quality crossover components", against something more sensibly priced ?... Any component that measures it's specified value is as good as it gets.
Ballpark, you spent $1400 too much.
What did such expensive crossover components improve? Can we have A vs B measurement data along with your subjective analysis?
@@JesusChristSaves2024 "any component that measures it rated value is as good as it gets" exactly !!!!
You paid 1,600 for crossovers
More than the cost of the drivers???
Well I get it
My tires cost more than my car
Lol
Companies that sell 50,000$ audio cables and 700,000$ speakers will survive (as long as there's audio fools.
Ridiculous and I doubt even true. A $30k pair of speakers from a greater speaker maker wouldn't even spend that much on crossovers. Half the cost of a speaker of that price is making up for R&D and advertising and distribution etc. Either you are an idiot or full of S.
Infinity RSa's have a 10" mid bass. First it fires the bass tone and then out of phase it fires the mid range into a 10" woofer.
I would like to know, why crossover's at all? Why not run woofers, mids and tweeter with separate speaker leads to a EQ type thing to be a real "active" crossover?
I've heard some fabulous full range speakers. Most used in hifi are 8 to 15 inches these days.
I agree, using electrovoice baronets now also, full range 8 inch in a cornerhorn cabinet.
Full range drivers are great except the bass isn’t particularly deep and the high frequencies aren’t as detailed as I like so there’s that
Nice mic for an open air sound even if fidelity isnt great. Paul sounds like hes over my left shoulder, Chris sounds like his voice is coming from his face. Also, Chris reminds me of my uncle, Chris. Same facial hair, same hair cut, same eyes, same face shape, almost identical voice, same name, and he aslo talks with his eyes and brow rather then his hands like Mr. Brunhaver here. Uncanny really.
Another reason to audition the TLS-1 by HHR Exotics which is an updated Ohm F which is a single omnidirectional driver with a frequency response of 29 to 22,000 hertz and does not need a crossover, it is time and phase aligned. It was once called the best speaker at any price.
Did you guys have the MELT for lunch?
There is no doubt that Chris knows what he's talking about but for a complex subject like fourth order crossovers I would like to see this information in writing so that I could digest all of this information it at my own pace.
Yes I to would love to have his useless information in writing,
I always love to read a good joke.
kc Jones thank you for adding nothing of any value to this conversation, greatly appreciated.
@@slippdixon228 DITTO 🤪
Great series of vids love this
Definitely not EVERYTHING I wanted to know, but I'm sure you'll do a cross-over with other engineers at some point.
Hahaha.. damn I'm good!
*Ba dum tss*
Nice to see Chris again. Seems he's been on hiatus as of late 😟
Could you blame him🤓
The best drivers are cube audio 2.4 Tesla magnetic field saturation higher than any other speaker in existence it is a single drive and doesn't need a crossover you should get one Paul and try and out make a speaker out of one they can get it down to 27 Hz at a 3 db roll off with remarkable low distortion I think it is the best driver inexistence at the moment
From my experience, a Crossover optimized for mediocre Drivers, makes for a "better" Speaker; than a Speaker with the Best Drivers, But were the "designer" ( probably through inexperience) doesn't understand the concepts stated in this episode.
The problem with a lot of full range drivers is that they have a mechanical crossover.
One voice coil, two cones (often one wizzer) and a mechanical crossover. A true crossover-less full range has only one cone/diaphragm.
Very true
and they were also of a higher impedance. 16 Ohms
much easier on the amplifier's output transistors.
cbrunhaver Hi Chris! I’m a fan of your talks.
I’m very interested what your vision is on how to drive a loudspeaker driver (controlled voltage, power, current or even charge), the nonlinearities in the voice coil impedance and current distortion. Can you make an episode on that?
Or (refrased) on the impact of output impedance of the amplifier (much smaller than the nominal impedance, about the same, or much higher, more than 100x) on the performance of drivers.
dusty dex Hm. In my opinion is a low impedance driver with a rather flat impedance curve more easy for an amplifier.
@@JerryRutten Flat impedance doesn't exist for moving coil drivers.
Grandinote could be your next guess. They're using like 36 mid-range and around 12 tweeters for one column only. They keep using the simplest cross over for the tweeters, so to keep the speakers close to the full range philosophy. REMEMBER the axiom : no capacitor in the power line. See your discussion about capacitors quality.
Line arrays for home use are a poor approach especially if you don't listen at loud levels.
While the load is shared and driver distortion is kept quite low, you now have intermodulation distortion and time alignment problems. This reduces clarity a bit.
@@thunderpooch Think we'd be OK & happy with a graphic confrontation of THD & IMD of both speakers family. And OK for a reading at home levels. We miss that kind of data sometimes. Some do well : see Serene Audio and their nice Talisman mini speakers complete study !
www.sereneaudio.com/drivers
Active speakers with an optimized amp per driver and cross-over filtering using DSP is the future of a highest performing digital audio system. It also allows for other tweaks towards much better tonal balance and phase optimization. It’s what makes the KEF LS50W sound better than the KEF LS50, for example.
Seems like one could have a very high level of fine control that way.
@@graxjpg There is a giant leap forward possible in calibrating a speaker's performance when you have a DSP to do it in rather than a few capacitors, inductors and resistors. It's also trivial to do tweaks towards personal preference e.g. adding a few dB where your ears need some help due to aging or whatever preference you have incl. compensation for your hearing's natural Fletcher Munson sensitivity.
It'll definitely push up the production costs a lot.
Qorax Active audiophile speakers are still cheaper on the BOM than if you compare with a similar passive system with separate boxes and cables. A good example is KEF LS 50 vs KEF LS50W.
ThinkingBetter I can imagine that I’d be surprised by the difference in price on the BOM of those two speakers.
what is the status of PS Audio's speaker line
Garbage
That's the official update.
Oh and I think the design is horrible
@@kcjones7634 Hahahaha, tell me how you really feel?
Your comment is too funny. Yeah, they've certainly had their delays and problems. We shall see.
Should have covered the fact that too many producers use cheap components in very expensive speakers..
2:20 ... Did he say "four inch woofer"? I do not believe that "four inch" and "woofer" belong in the same sentence.
whats wrong with that?
@@nabildanial00
A four inch driver cannot move enough air to woof. It would be lucky to achieve 80 Hz.
Swinde nah perhaps 40 Hz are their limits
@G Guest
The drivers in headphones are a heck of a lot closer to your ear. Therefore they do not have to move much air. You are correct that these small drivers are capable of moving at 40 Hz, but I would think that the level of sound across a room would drop dramatically because of the lack of air motion from the tiny cone. A longer throwing voice coil helps, but I doubt that any four inch driver is going to deliver 40 Hz at a -3 dB level in an average size room. I could be wrong.
@@swinde surface area multiplied by excursion capability gives you an idea of bass performance.
Excursion alone or surface area alone don't tell the full story.
But going too far with excursion or surface area does lead to sloppy distorted performance.
What about a commercial crossover and 3 amps ..are they less susceptable to the distortion he aluded too?
Certainly true...but sound quality should improve in theory...? That was my ultimate point. I have heard some amazing commercial line arrays with 3 and 4 way X overs ... a high quality crossover and associated amps might be killer.
Mike Schlup - yes, I run a Xilica XP4080 Professional DSP in a biamped setup. Klipsch Jubilee with TAD drivers.
Peter, i am not familiar with your equipment..will do some google research..lol..thanks!
Mike Schlup - run any amps you like, as long as they’ve got balanced inputs. Personally, I biamp. xilica.com/products/xp/
I will look them up.
BRING BACK THE ENVELOPE.
I grew up listening to 8" full range Philips speakers, those which are still being produced by others. Skip to 4:45 to skip the unboxing here th-cam.com/video/3EPAyBFpRVk/w-d-xo.html
I enjoyed understanding nothing 😄
Linear phase DSP crossovers is the way to go if you want the optimal sound quality.
can you point me where to read more about them? i've thinking of building an active system myself but i dont know where to start.
@@nabildanial00 I use DEQX and they have some resources on their promotional videos. If you wanted a cheaper alternative, you can use miniDSP units that can handle FIR filtering and then use Eclipse to design the filters. If you want just a conventional minimum phase filter for the crossover then I'd recommend the Hypex plate amps that have a DSP crossover on them.
I run a Xilica XP4080 Professional DSP in a biamped setup. Klipsch Jubilee with TAD drivers.
A long and laborious way to say (most drivers today are garbage and need a lot of crossovers to sound OK. OTHER than that, this video was ok, I just wish this guy was more likable.
Chris seems like a nice guy to me,although Paul comes across as more at ease in front of the camera. The lunch format generally feels a little more relaxed in my view.
kc jones, Saying ''uh huh'' under his breath every 5 seconds doesn't help.
Dude is an engineer
Not a salesman
@@zeusapollo8688 true dat. its unfair to expect him to speak like a celebrity.
@@zeusapollo8688 doesn't seem like either with that sad answer and even sadder demeanor.