I once wrote a story framed as a tarot card reading so it was second person, future tense. It was interesting but the prose got a little mushy, because the word 'will' was in every sentence.
First, that's a really cool idea, even as just an exercise, but I think there should be other options. How about probably? How about future uncertain or future murky? What if you give the card memories of past readings and outcomes. I might have to try that one and see what comes up, but I should probably learn Tarot first.
I’m going to offer a counterargument to the inherently illogical argument. Feel free to shoot me down in flames. When we read a piece in the present tense it is immediate and we live it in the now. And the now. And the now. What I have just written is inherently illogical if looked at as a whole piece. But while we are reading it it is logical now. And now. Since the writing is a vehicle for delivering the story, the writing does not exist within the story. If the writing is truly effective it becomes invisible and only the story exists. Now. And now. If we are journeying with the protagonist we will exist in the same time frame as the protagonist at every moment. The scene breaks do not exist to the protagonist, nor the chapters. When we look back at past events in our own lives we recall them as memories. Usually. As anyone who has ever suffered a PTSD flashback with attest, sometimes we re-live them. They take on the same immediacy as the present tense suggests. As to where to start the story - it doesn’t matter from the POV of the protagonist since wherever the story starts, or wherever we start to read it we will always be with the protag now. I am typing. (true one second ago). I look out at the darkness (true one second ago). Each of these sentences relate to things that happened in the past by the time I finished typing them. But, as a reader when you look through my eyes and read ‘I am typing’ that only becomes real for you at the moment you read it. It is not in the past tense for you until you have read it because you do not yet know it has happened.
I think past tense feels more natural because it's what you're more used to but once you get used to it present tense becomes natural as well. So I wonder if there really is much difference or there just seems to be when you're less used to it, but it does seem like present tense makes things more "psychically close" as you say. Writing in first person has a similar so if it's for the sake of intimacy I think that's enough. Another effect might be that present tense feels more fleeting, so I think present tense can be fitting for a story with theme of impermanence or something along those lines.
I'm writing a fantasy story heavily inspired by Japanese manga and I just feel like to capture that feeling I have to use present tense and third person, this is a nice video to have
I didn`t think about it when I first started writing, and I instinctively wrote third person in past tense and first in present. I think I`ll stick to that.
Writing screenplays has made the present tense third person style very comfortable for me, it also helps me feel like I’m avoiding being detached while staying at arms length, so the distance idea resonated with me. You’ve given me much to consider, as I’m in the apparent minority of those who actually enjoy this style, and I’m 53 pages into my novel.
I'm a VERY novice writer and through writing my first couple chapter my style and structure are more of a screenplay and script lol. I naturally gravitated towards the present tense third person which I find works well as I'm basically trying to paint a movie with all its switches in characters, pacing, etc. etc. The only drawback I faced was flow. The chapters frequently get bogged down with so much information. Every time the setting changes I have to describe it, a character speaks and moves, and I have to portray their personality. It really makes it challenging in the editing process.
Nothing beats past tense in my opinion. Some examples from novels would be useful in future videos btw. Good job though, I always enjoy listening to your insights Shaelin.
Greg Iles wrote his Penn Cage novels in dual tense and POVs. The MC's chapters are in first person present tense while the others are in third person past tense. It's interesting, and he does it remarkably well.
I am writing in third person past tense, and have a series of memories that show up all throughout Acts 1 and 2 (the MC returns to the place the memories were at in Act 3, so they won't be as present). This video suddenly made me realize - writing them in 2nd person might be an amazing idea. I'll be brainstorming that in the few days that are between now and Camp NaNoWriMo On top of that, my second most important character also has memory chapters, except they aren't his own memories (don't ask, it's complicated), and the character to whom they belong isn't named, so having them in 2nd person would make *not* naming the POV character much easier The more I think about it, the more appealing it seems
Honestly trying to write a fantasy novel in present tense and it's harder than it seems... might be great for short stories, where you can really stay in the moment when everything matters. but for a novel, it's hard to move through. It's only been one chapter, so I might just change it now.
I appreciate your opinion. I am neutral in whether a story is present or past. What matters to me is if the writer can clearly narrate, especially in flashbacks. When a writer is comfortable in showing their stories versus telling, writing in present tense is simpler when flashbacks fall in place because the story flow falls in order.
You make a really good point about present tense seeming illogical. I couldn't agree more. And it makes the fact that someone wrote this (you) stand out more. Not a good thing. Yet I've often read books where present tense is done so well I don't notice it at all. I'm reading "The General and Julia" by Jon Clinch, historical literary fiction, in PRESENT tense. Jarring. But Clinch is a master.
From John Green, "So when I am telling a story, I switch a lot between past and present tense. I might be like, “So I was driving down the street and then BOOM a deer jumps out of the woods and almost hits my car, and I almost peed my pants.” That’s a grammatically disastrous sentence, but the reason I switch tenses there is because when describing the moment of crisis-the deer jumping onto the street-I feel as if it is still happening, and I want to express to you that it was so intense that it is on some level not over. We like to be very rigid in the way we imagine tense-some things are happening, other things have happened, etc. But one of the reason we’ve created SO MANY tenses in English is that really, the way we experience time is extremely complicated."
I used to feel comfortable writing in the present tense until I read Ursula K. LeGuin's Steering the Craft and she said "Living in the present isn't all that easy for most of us. Being present in the present, really living in it, is one of the goals of awareness meditation, which people practice for years." It's complicated the matter for me haha.
Scene breaks and chapters and stuff can still make perfect sense if you think it of as someone telling a story in present tense. People do this in real life all the time. "So I'm walking through the forest, minding my business and then BAM! A bear right in front of me! I'm freaking out, I don't know what to do. I back up real slowly so I don't draw its attention. Of course, that's right when I step on the loudest twig in the whole forest. The bear's head snaps right to me..." you get the idea. "I'm just driving along and then all of a sudden there's a deer in the middle of the road!" This is how people tell stories in real life so why can't this be how people tell stories in a novel?
The “illogical” thing helped me understand why I can’t get into present tense except very occasionally in poetry. Thank you. Another factor for me is that (in English at least) it breaks with the norms of communication we use in the rest of our lives. No one wants to hear a story in real time, the whole point is to compress it down to the interesting stuff. There was a time when written words didn’t have spaces, punctuation, or capitalization. And the world went on just fine…but no culture has thrown away those tools once discovered/invented. Using present tense to tell a story feels to me like when writers omit punctuation to make a story feel “fast, and real.”
This is a point of taste, but I'd really like it if you left a bit more space in your editing. The vlog-brothers-jump-cut is great for increasing the pace, but in thoughtful material like this, another half a second or less in those cuts would let your words breathe. Oh , and thank you for this material, it is fantastic. I often use you as a resource for teaching.
Hey, great video! For your info, there's a mistake at 9;48 min where you say past tense and it's written a present tense. Just so you know if you want to edit that later! I started writing my novel in the present tense without realizing it, but the narration is in the past tense. That seems to work fine. I love that actually and saw Arthur C. Clark did that in a novel! So I figured if he can do that, why not me! ;)) Thanks!
Hi Reedsy. :D Thanks for this content. I'd like to enquire about something you've said about flash forwards. In the novel I'm currently writing in, time moves linearly, but there are time shifts. For example, one time frame covers August 2019, then the shift moves to October. Both are written in present tense, therefore the novel covers different present time frames. I asked my writer friend and they said they think it would be fine since the events are linear. Do you think I should change this? Thanks. :)
My heart crumble to dust and my body parts become shaking when I'm hearing stuff related to grammatical rules as if someone is telling me to give a shape to water or he is ordering me to stop the tide of the sea.
Present tense is way easier. I used to love the Past tense but when I discovered the Present tense, it felt easier and logical since the story takes place in the Characters POV(1st Person.) Take this as the next pages is unknown and you are following the character's journey, pages by pages.
HELLO, young adult is not always Past tense. "Harry Potter", written in third person PRESENT TENSE limited, and how about the "Hunger Games, also written in present tense.
I've never met anyone who hates past tense, many people cannot stand and wont purchase present tense. So its a bad economic choice to use present tense.
I once wrote a story framed as a tarot card reading so it was second person, future tense. It was interesting but the prose got a little mushy, because the word 'will' was in every sentence.
That sounds like a super cool idea for a story!
wow that sounds super kool! i would love to read it if i can🥺
where can i read your story?
First, that's a really cool idea, even as just an exercise, but I think there should be other options. How about probably? How about future uncertain or future murky? What if you give the card memories of past readings and outcomes. I might have to try that one and see what comes up, but I should probably learn Tarot first.
I’m going to offer a counterargument to the inherently illogical argument. Feel free to shoot me down in flames.
When we read a piece in the present tense it is immediate and we live it in the now. And the now. And the now. What I have just written is inherently illogical if looked at as a whole piece. But while we are reading it it is logical now. And now.
Since the writing is a vehicle for delivering the story, the writing does not exist within the story. If the writing is truly effective it becomes invisible and only the story exists. Now. And now. If we are journeying with the protagonist we will exist in the same time frame as the protagonist at every moment. The scene breaks do not exist to the protagonist, nor the chapters. When we look back at past events in our own lives we recall them as memories. Usually. As anyone who has ever suffered a PTSD flashback with attest, sometimes we re-live them. They take on the same immediacy as the present tense suggests. As to where to start the story - it doesn’t matter from the POV of the protagonist since wherever the story starts, or wherever we start to read it we will always be with the protag now.
I am typing. (true one second ago). I look out at the darkness (true one second ago). Each of these sentences relate to things that happened in the past by the time I finished typing them. But, as a reader when you look through my eyes and read ‘I am typing’ that only becomes real for you at the moment you read it. It is not in the past tense for you until you have read it because you do not yet know it has happened.
I think past tense feels more natural because it's what you're more used to but once you get used to it present tense becomes natural as well. So I wonder if there really is much difference or there just seems to be when you're less used to it, but it does seem like present tense makes things more "psychically close" as you say. Writing in first person has a similar so if it's for the sake of intimacy I think that's enough. Another effect might be that present tense feels more fleeting, so I think present tense can be fitting for a story with theme of impermanence or something along those lines.
I'm writing a fantasy story heavily inspired by Japanese manga and I just feel like to capture that feeling I have to use present tense and third person, this is a nice video to have
I didn`t think about it when I first started writing, and I instinctively wrote third person in past tense and first in present. I think I`ll stick to that.
I sometimes wrote both tenses. The past focuses on the action while the present focuses on expositions that is still happening.
Writing screenplays has made the present tense third person style very comfortable for me, it also helps me feel like I’m avoiding being detached while staying at arms length, so the distance idea resonated with me. You’ve given me much to consider, as I’m in the apparent minority of those who actually enjoy this style, and I’m 53 pages into my novel.
How's that novel going? Hope it's going well!
I'm a VERY novice writer and through writing my first couple chapter my style and structure are more of a screenplay and script lol. I naturally gravitated towards the present tense third person which I find works well as I'm basically trying to paint a movie with all its switches in characters, pacing, etc. etc. The only drawback I faced was flow. The chapters frequently get bogged down with so much information. Every time the setting changes I have to describe it, a character speaks and moves, and I have to portray their personality. It really makes it challenging in the editing process.
Nothing beats past tense in my opinion. Some examples from novels would be useful in future videos btw. Good job though, I always enjoy listening to your insights Shaelin.
Greg Iles wrote his Penn Cage novels in dual tense and POVs. The MC's chapters are in first person present tense while the others are in third person past tense. It's interesting, and he does it remarkably well.
That sounds really interesting!
I am writing in third person past tense, and have a series of memories that show up all throughout Acts 1 and 2 (the MC returns to the place the memories were at in Act 3, so they won't be as present). This video suddenly made me realize - writing them in 2nd person might be an amazing idea. I'll be brainstorming that in the few days that are between now and Camp NaNoWriMo
On top of that, my second most important character also has memory chapters, except they aren't his own memories (don't ask, it's complicated), and the character to whom they belong isn't named, so having them in 2nd person would make *not* naming the POV character much easier
The more I think about it, the more appealing it seems
This is a very good extrapolation of present tense vs past tense. Excellent! Thank you! 😁😁
Honestly trying to write a fantasy novel in present tense and it's harder than it seems... might be great for short stories, where you can really stay in the moment when everything matters. but for a novel, it's hard to move through. It's only been one chapter, so I might just change it now.
Best breakdown of present and past tenses I’ve found. Thnk u!
I appreciate your opinion. I am neutral in whether a story is present or past. What matters to me is if the writer can clearly narrate, especially in flashbacks. When a writer is comfortable in showing their stories versus telling, writing in present tense is simpler when flashbacks fall in place because the story flow falls in order.
You make a really good point about present tense seeming illogical. I couldn't agree more. And it makes the fact that someone wrote this (you) stand out more. Not a good thing. Yet I've often read books where present tense is done so well I don't notice it at all. I'm reading "The General and Julia" by Jon Clinch, historical literary fiction, in PRESENT tense. Jarring. But Clinch is a master.
From John Green, "So when I am telling a story, I switch a lot between past and present tense. I might be like, “So I was driving down the street and then BOOM a deer jumps out of the woods and almost hits my car, and I almost peed my pants.” That’s a grammatically disastrous sentence, but the reason I switch tenses there is because when describing the moment of crisis-the deer jumping onto the street-I feel as if it is still happening, and I want to express to you that it was so intense that it is on some level not over.
We like to be very rigid in the way we imagine tense-some things are happening, other things have happened, etc. But one of the reason we’ve created SO MANY tenses in English is that really, the way we experience time is extremely complicated."
The logical dilemma of the present tense is something I never even considered before, what a cool and disturbing thought.
I used to feel comfortable writing in the present tense until I read Ursula K. LeGuin's Steering the Craft and she said "Living in the present isn't all that easy for most of us. Being present in the present, really living in it, is one of the goals of awareness meditation, which people practice for years." It's complicated the matter for me haha.
I'm going to have to find a cot of that book
Scene breaks and chapters and stuff can still make perfect sense if you think it of as someone telling a story in present tense. People do this in real life all the time. "So I'm walking through the forest, minding my business and then BAM! A bear right in front of me! I'm freaking out, I don't know what to do. I back up real slowly so I don't draw its attention. Of course, that's right when I step on the loudest twig in the whole forest. The bear's head snaps right to me..." you get the idea. "I'm just driving along and then all of a sudden there's a deer in the middle of the road!" This is how people tell stories in real life so why can't this be how people tell stories in a novel?
Can you please do a video on how to write an adventure story
BTW i was your first like
Thanks for the timestamps i find the very helpful
The “illogical” thing helped me understand why I can’t get into present tense except very occasionally in poetry.
Thank you.
Another factor for me is that (in English at least) it breaks with the norms of communication we use in the rest of our lives. No one wants to hear a story in real time, the whole point is to compress it down to the interesting stuff.
There was a time when written words didn’t have spaces, punctuation, or capitalization. And the world went on just fine…but no culture has thrown away those tools once discovered/invented. Using present tense to tell a story feels to me like when writers omit punctuation to make a story feel “fast, and real.”
This is a point of taste, but I'd really like it if you left a bit more space in your editing. The vlog-brothers-jump-cut is great for increasing the pace, but in thoughtful material like this, another half a second or less in those cuts would let your words breathe. Oh , and thank you for this material, it is fantastic. I often use you as a resource for teaching.
Can we start a story with present and end it with past? or do we have to stick to only one tense?
I love the background music btw. Please, what is it?
Hey, great video! For your info, there's a mistake at 9;48 min where you say past tense and it's written a present tense. Just so you know if you want to edit that later! I started writing my novel in the present tense without realizing it, but the narration is in the past tense. That seems to work fine. I love that actually and saw Arthur C. Clark did that in a novel! So I figured if he can do that, why not me! ;)) Thanks!
If a narrator tells the story but is not a character in the story is it best to tell the story in past tense or present?
Yooo this was very helpful for me :D I was losing my mind choosing a tense for my book
So happy it helped!
I tried using third person present tense, such a pain...
Hi Reedsy. :D Thanks for this content. I'd like to enquire about something you've said about flash forwards. In the novel I'm currently writing in, time moves linearly, but there are time shifts. For example, one time frame covers August 2019, then the shift moves to October. Both are written in present tense, therefore the novel covers different present time frames. I asked my writer friend and they said they think it would be fine since the events are linear. Do you think I should change this? Thanks. :)
Goodness this helps
funny question: is a video overdubbed with low background elevator music considered the equivalent to writing in the past tense?
My heart crumble to dust and my body parts become shaking when I'm hearing stuff related to grammatical rules as if someone is telling me to give a shape to water or he is ordering me to stop the tide of the sea.
Sumayyah Khan you’re*
This was really great! Can anyone point me towards some stories written in present tense? Just looking for some examples.
The Hunger games is written in present tense.
Is the all-powerful Shae Canadian?
Yep, I am!
Past tense is my favorite, present tense feels so weird to read and write.
Ok, but if the present tense is written nicely, you wouldn't even notice it.
Present tense is way easier. I used to love the Past tense but when I discovered the Present tense, it felt easier and logical since the story takes place in the Characters POV(1st Person.) Take this as the next pages is unknown and you are following the character's journey, pages by pages.
Does this host have stories? Nothing comes up in google search.
wait.. what? I've heard so many industry leaders say that novels should be written in present tense!! 😩
HELLO, young adult is not always Past tense. "Harry Potter", written in third person PRESENT TENSE limited, and how about the "Hunger Games, also written in present tense.
Would a publisher accept the inherently illogical?
I've never met anyone who hates past tense, many people cannot stand and wont purchase present tense. So its a bad economic choice to use present tense.
I love 1st person Present tense
I just want to say, Hi 😂😂😂
You said actually three times in the first three sentences of your video and I’m supposed to follow you and learn from you?
It seems to me that almost all these guides on how to write are narrated by younger females. Just an observation.