Hi. I don't know how long you have been in this industry but your presentation and communication skills are the best I have seen and your explanations about the whole heating and controls topic is top notch.. Keep these great videos coming.
How I’ve not found you sooner is beyond me. What an exceptional channel this is. Nothing but respect. So good at explaining things, I’m a heating engineer trying to understand PHW and you have done so in such a great way. Thank you.
Thank you so much for this. I installed a large S plan plus in my own house (bar the boiler) and it has never worked properly, purely for this reason (especially over summer months). I owe you a pint (or three) for this excellent insight and knowledge that I've got from you all for free. Thank you. 👍🏼😎
Thank you so so much for this video. Years ago my plumber did a 100% bog standard installation of an Ideal Vogue Gen2 S32, S-Plan setup. He did not bother with weather compensation or Opentherm, although he did try and do Opentherm as I put him under some pressure as I thought it should have been possible with my Nest. He could not work it out, not an old guy either! In the last month I have re-wired my electrical junction box (was a mess) onto one of those nice Wago junction boxes, I have added the external temperature sensor, and I have added Nest Opentherm. Now my boiler runs way cooler when on heating only. Because of SL2 and the boiler knowing when it's getting a call for hot water, I have just set the 1hr HW period to coincide with a 'gap' in my Nest schedule when the heating turns off. So the outcome is nearly the same. My only problem now is this S32 boiler is certainly too big for my house and it cycles on and off. I'm pretty sure it cycled anyway when it was set to 60 though. Wish I had the S15, and Ideal say that you cannot downgrade it by swapping parts. So if anyone wants to do a boiler swap let me know, otherwise I may up buying an S15 in a year or two! Grrr
If only all engineers were this knowledgeable. I've just had a new boiler and controls fitted, both Opentherm compatible yet they wired it as a normal on / off system!
Hi @UrbanPlumbers Good to see you posting here again :) Two things, I'm 99.99% sure the Ideal Max Logic2 Heat boiler supports PDHW (I hope so having it fitted next week)? And as has been asked by others please can you post the updated schematic diagram. Thank you.
Hi Your explanation is second to none If All houses had adequate insulation then running the boiler at a much lower flame or burner rate should rectify the heat loss within the property
Hey Szymon, If you were using opentherm on the heating, does SL1 terminal get left empty at the board? And you just run your two wires from opentherm connection at receiver to the OT connection on the right hand side of the board? Cheers
Great explanation. I can’t help thinking that a much cheaper and simpler resolution would be to time the HW to only come on during the CH OFF periods, even if it’s for an hour in the morning and an hour in the afternoon. Any underfloor zones shouldn’t cool down that much in the time
Yes you could do that on this boiler, but if you fire both DHW and CH at the same time radiators and UFH with get 80C water going to them, which is just unnecessary.
A great explanation. As a heating professional myself I really enjoy your clear no nonsense presentations. Whilst I fully understand why you’d do this, I’m not sure for at best a ten percent saving that many would. I would also worry about someone following in about six or eight years on an emergency call out one night and fitting a std NC 2port in place of that NO 2 port. I think you’d need to label it very clearly. My experience of weather compensation has been mixed at best. Confuses the hell out of customers when their rads seem to have a mind of their own. I’d much rather just use something like open therm that’s doing it’s thing unseen in the background by the customers.
@@UrbanPlumbers yep I totally agree. The lack of underpinning knowledge I see weekly is actually quite worrying and gives the industry a bad name. Only this week I went to a boiler, a previous company attended, told the customer they needed a new boiler as parts were obsolete, turned it off, left them no heating, quoted 4K for a replacement. I ordered the parts on a next day delivery and had it working for less than £300 all in. I see it constantly, a complete lack of even basic sequences of ignition, or an understanding of what the numbers on a FGA are even telling them. So-called engineers who don’t even know how to min/max a boiler. I had a call from a plumber of about thirty years in the industry. Changed a rad. System wouldn’t fill. When I told him to check the cold feed wasn’t blocked he had no concept of what I meant. And on and on and on.
I am currently doing an installation with the same set up as this. My question is what is the best option for customer controlling the heating? Efficiency wise I imagine purely relying on weather comp would be best but there is no option to create a slightly lower set back temperature for overnight.
Been doing this for the last 12 years using Glowworm boilers with systempro and Climapro controllers, give the best results with underfloor heating (no mixing set or pump needed with weather comp) and with fanned low temp rads, set call for hot water to 73degs and call to heating at 40 odd, massive fuel efficiency.
I love your videos. I thought I had an S-plan plus (that's how it's plumbed), but I'm now pretty sure I have hot water priorty. Vaillant system boiler with all Vaillant controls and it will never allow hot water charging and heating at the same time. The only frustration is that it seems to take an age to switch from hot water charging back to heating. It does some kind of cool down precedure before it starts firing for the heating? Seems a waste of energy.
Great presentation. I have an S Plan + system with UFH on the ground floor and radiators on the 1st floor. Boiler is Ideal Logic S18 which will operate with weather comp. In the X Plan system you describe, if it closes the normally open valve at the same time that the UFH is calling for heat, what effect will it have on the UFH system when it can’t get any hot water to top up the circuit. Also my home is a new build and the radiators are quite small. Would they have designed the radiator circuit to use water above 60 degrees?
When converting and S Plan+ system to PDHW could you avoid the need for a new NO zone valve on the heating size by wiring a double NC relay that is energised by the DHW brown which would kill either or both browns to each heating zone valve? Thanks
Great video explaining this. I'm currently pricing up a job with the same boiler. I plan to fit a high gain cylinder. Would you leave the hot water demand on all the time as it should only take 10-15 minutes to heat up or would you still time this?
the flat im about to move into has an S plan... I like the idea of the HW priority. I have a nest thermostat 3. so I will aim to get a plumber locally to fot both these. - very informative video. Always fun to watch
@@UrbanPlumbers thanks for the reply, if it doesn't (most likely it doesn't) I'll probably swap it later anyway. for reference programmer is a danfoss tp9 and the boiler is a potterton Promax HE plus. Funny setup as the thermostat is digital and on the programmer with just a room sensor in the living room (when I visited the place).
Sorry, with PDHW does it mean the HW will always kick in whenever boiler is on? Or can it be controlled to call between CH and HW? Also, does cylinder tank need a temperature measurement control or will it know that HW is satisfied ?
Thanks for the informative video, seems odd we have to add an extra valve to override other valves already fitted, a better way surely would be for the boiler to control the valves based on it’s Input from the thermostat and hot water stat? But this way keeps it more traditional I guess?
The only boiler that does it this way is Vaillant, but then you have to use vaillant wiring center and vaillant controls. Other way is what viessman and worcester do with 4 pipe set up Ans internal diverter valve. Otherwise you have to do x plan with additional normally open zone valve. Not a problem if there is 1 heating zone as only 2 valves required, but with more hearing zones you have to keep existing valves and add NO valve.
@@UrbanPlumbers Thanks for taking the time to reply, not heard of the X plan before you mentioned it, looks good, all the best for your channel - its really good and clear, plus i learnt somthing so thanks!
I watch your videos regularly and often goes above my head. My query is what is the ideal flow temp and range rating to heat an unvented indirect 250l tempest cylinder? Also how long the hot water program may need to run to heat 35 degree water to 60 degree?
Hi again urban I’m doing a big install in an old Victorian home with three zones, basement,ground floor, first floor then obviously hot water cylinder, so an s plan plus but HWP, I was thinking of using a low loss header as it is quite a big property, 6 bathroom 5 bathrooms and multiple living rooms and kitchens, my low loss Calc came out at needing a little less then 150k btu’s, which is in return 43kw I’m thinking of putting in a 32kw as all zone will never be in use, what is your opinion? My other option is to fit the bigger 40kw, as fitting two boilers isn’t really possible due to fluing the two boilers as the exit point would mean there are to close to one another. And I’m assuming with a low loss I can just put the normally open on the flow out of the low loss and run as you describe, really love the videos👌🏻
@@UrbanPlumbers Hi again. Currently I have a Lamborghini combi heater for more than 12 years but also have from my brother a brand new Remeha Avanta 30s (is an older model) and Remeha iSense thermostat with outdoor sensor. What's your advice, could I use this Remeha adding a hot water cylinder, zone valves, etc, greatly explained in your movie? Would be a big save for me but also a nice project. Thanks for your answer.
Hey, I'm a newly qualified engineer and find videos like this really useful! Could you tell me when wiring OT for heating with an S plan, I would REMOVE the 230v signal for the heating and KEEP the 230v signal for DHW? So when both HTG and DHW are called at the same time, it would recieve signals from both OT and 230V but prioritise the DHW? Thanks for your help, keep up the awesome vids!
If I remove a gravity fed floor standing boiler and replace it with a Ideal Vogue Max system boiler do I not need a cylinder stat ? And your saying the Normally open valve Goes on the heating pipe only ? So then how would you get the temperature correct inside the cylinder? Obviously the floor standing boiler uses its own stat within the boiler to control the hw as there are no valves whatsoever on the system at the moment, therefore it must bypass to the bathroom also
Can u please clarify this: PDHW will not work or be suitable IF water tank is not high pressurized / fast recovery? It is 16yrs invented tank. Does PDHW work only on specific cylinder tank?
Hi, could you plz check the link for wiring diagram.. it doesn't work. Is there any wiring diagram for s plan + in this scenario, with 1 NO valve followed by ( heating NC valve +ufh NC valve) and NC valve for hot water Thanks
Well! Think I need to get NEST and ditch TADO cos nobody is able to figure it out! So, I will purchase the NO valve to make it PDHW with Opentherm. But but but ... Since I have a system boiler and water tank which also has a Coil Electrical Immersion (think can heat water tank using electricity as a quick option). How does that work with NEST and Opentherm and PDHW? Will that fall out completely ? How is that managed then? Will that be via nest too or will remain a separate switch. the Honeywell old thermostat controller has option to call for Boost. Btw. how would I know what's the temperature in the hot water tank in order to call for hot water or maybe it be a case checking if hot water is getting cold lol Any thoughts about Electric Immersion and how that would be controlled? Or will that fall out and become unusable because PDHW will simply switch off CH and feed heat to tank only? Just thinking if it's freezing cold and you need both HW and CH ? 😟
Great video - I've subscribed. Can hot water priority be set up on a vented system (subject to the correct boiler being installed) should the mains flow/pressure not be suitable for an unvented system?
Great video Szymon, you're in a league of your own on this topic! All concepts regarding DHWP clearly explained 👏. With regard to fitting the auto bypass on this install, do you have to be careful when setting the pump mode so that the two don't 'argue' with each other? As I understand it, proportional pressure curves are best avoided...
Have got the new boiler installed now. The plumber noted that the S PLAN supports hot priority provided the Tado Smart thermostat supports it. Is this correct? What plan needed for the hot priority ?
@@UrbanPlumbers and requires to change the heating zone valves to something else? open Return? Is the HotWater priority dependant on the boiler or the thermostat? Electrician was not sure how POHW would benefit :/ Besides are you familiar with Tado Starter Kit EU model? Somehow it has one zone connection but meant to support both hot water and heating via opentherm. Electrician gave up
@@bimiuk4051 the eu Tado wireless receiver could only support hot water if you had an opentherm capable tank, and even then I’m not sure how you’d wire it
@@Leonards-leopard @urbanPlumbers claims that it works opentherm + hot water priority. Still waiting for his final video to confirm as I need to return it otherwise
Hi mate, top video. So does this mean that when it's wired with hot water priority; the heating will stay off untill the hot water reaches the required temperature?
yes, logic can do that - very badly - but it is about doable. I would suggest a better boiler such as Viessmann or Vaillant instead, especially with logic catching fire now.
Allo pal. Just a quick one. If you have only one switch live down to boiler how would you do this kind of system as boiler and cylinder are opposite ends of house without lifting boards up . Is there a wireless option . Any of your knowledge would be much appreciated
Great informative video. Would you still recommend this system with a house hold that has a high usage of hot-water where they might find the heating will not come on due to hot-water being priority . Remember the days first fitting radiator thermostatic valves and get called up with customer saying her radiators not working when heating is on. Of course it had turned of with temperature within the room. Trying to explain that to someone who has been used to feeling every radiator roasting hot was a challenge
You can still time water. If high usage then use a high gain cylinder that can take the full kW output of the boiler. The cylinder here is too big. In PDHW you only need 100-120l of stored water as it operates pretty much like a combi boiler - reheats the water as you use it. Again all combis stop the heating when in use and no one notices
Hi, Love your videos adn style so huge thank you for the videos. NOTE: the schematic link is not working in your description "Ideal Vogue Gen2 Hot Water Priority Wiring Schematics". Is there any chance you could update the link? Thanks in advance :)
Hi, I'm considering going down this route too, with an Ideal boiler and I'd also like to know which boilers from their range are suitable. Does it have to be a system boiler with integral pump? Or can you do it with a heat only boiler from their range (or other manufacturer) and retain the external pump? I know you are busy @UrbanPlumbers but would be great to get your input. Thanks
Depends on the boiler. Some boiler need a pump overrun so the boiler supplies power to the pump, other guy will need to use a relay to separate switched lives and fire the pump.
Thank you sir, going to do it to my system before offering it to customers. Mines a logic heat 24 (already fitted before we moved in) s plan plus with 2x nest. Thanks again.
Hi, I have an Ideal Vogue Max System 26, will this run like your set up on here if the wiring is altered? only wired into SL1 at moment. I know I will have to add the N/O CH valve etc. Cheers Chris
Waw, i think its the easiest best informative video ever on youtube about HWPS. I really don’t know how on earth I didn’t come across ur page and videos before. Just amazing clarity and explanation . I just got one issue I didn’t understand is the towel rail zone if it comes with hot water the NO ZV will block its flow regardless so how it will works. Also which Worcester or vaillant boilers that does hot water priority. Thanks for ur time and effort.
the towel rails do not come with hot water. I just used a hot water realy on the 2nd nest to control the towel rails separately. Worcester CDI and 8000 can do PDHW with additional internal diverter that needs to be installed before the boiler is installed. All vaillants 6xx series can do PDHW but only with Vaillant own wiring center and controls.
I wish I had discovered your channel a few months ago… I’ve just had a combi replaced with a new s-plan system (indirect cylinder & ideal logic system boiler). Your videos have been perfect to figure why my system is so inefficient, I wish I had not taken my plumber’s advice and found your info first 😭 What do you recommend for monitoring cylinder temp, to help guide me on my hot water schedule on Hive? Would you recommend the Tesla T-smart?
guess they want them on on HW demand to have them on when they take a shower but like that they would have them on even when they wash dishes in the kitchen or just use a wash basin in the bathroom. I am wondering if this continuous switching on and off could get the zone valve and the boiler ignition to get faulty. And also they would go on in the summer when there is 30 degree Celsius outside and you really don't want them on while you are taking a shower. Is that right?
No. They come on with 2nd Nest - just programmer on sl normally designed to control hot water. Reason is - that way they can have towel rails on in the summer without central heating. Hot water is independent from towel rails as other neat controls hot water Hope it makes sense
Absolutely superb video, I have an Ideal Vogue Gen 2 S15 with Evohome with a rads and UFH, and trying to digest all this on an S plan with only 1 port valve since Evohome has its own valves. One question, since I’ve been told this is not possible - Opentherm and WC on the Ideal, I’ve been told they don’t work together and Opentherm had a better erP class and therefore remove the WC. I’m guessing you disagree with this? I’ve learnt a lot from your video, thank you Oh I’m guessing that me removing a port valve negates my requirement for a “normally open valve” as I’m using Evohomes valve as individual ones since all zones have actuators
Be good to get an answer to the Opentherm vs WC. Are they not both used then? I'd assumed that my Nest would lower the power of the boiler as target temp was approached, and the boiler would just try and supply however many kW at whatever the WC said was the most efficient temp to achieve it by adjusting the burn/flow. A question: How big is your house and does your boiler cycle when it's on a low setting (i.e. it's not super cold)? I have an S32 and it's too big for me.
@@RichardABW you can’t use Opentherm and WC together, they fight each other. As I understand it Opentherm is ErP class VIII (8) and WC is ErP class V (5). So mine is just on Opentherm. I have a S15, my house is EPC B and I have UFH. My output temp is 38°C, though I could go lower. Heating comes on three times a day for anything from 1 1/2 hours to 1/2 hours each time. Three times as if left on the boiler then cycles as house doesn’t lose that much heat. UFH is one big slab that releases heat very slowly too. The ideal Vogue allows you to set the max temperature (so HW will default to this), and the dial allows you to alter the flow temp of the boiler for heating, so HW temps and Heating are different. Atm I’m on Octopus Go faster so it’s slightly cheaper to heat HW with electricity, so my boiler is currently at 92% efficiency.
@@jimmyc38 Thanks, how do you know it's at 92%? There is that efficiency bar inside the boiler menu, but it doesn't seem to move much. It would be interesting to hear what Szymon makes of using OT and WC at the same time. It was a few weeks ago I watched this video but I don't think he suggests you cannot in it? Also I don't think the boiler manual suggests it's an issue. Surly all the WC is doing is picking an appropriate flow temp automatically, like you are now doing manually with the knob on the front?
@@RichardABW because on the Ideal Vogue there is an option to look at boiler efficiency. It was Ideal that told me that their boilers don’t allow the two, and it was them that told me Opentherm is better. Also I’m very clued up on Evohome and know that this is ErP class 8 on Opentherm. Just be mindful that zoning and low temps have to be done in a balanced way, so that you don’t fine zone so as to cause the boiler to cycle. Batch zone is how you would do it, especially if your rads are “normal” size and not larger ones. For me UFH is my saving grace.
@@jimmyc38 Yes, I have an Ideal Vogue, I've previously just seen question marks over that boiler efficiency reading. I talked to Ideal too just 30 mins ago and they said the same to me as they did to you. I have now removed my WC sensor. I think the boiler seems to be working in exactly the same way, I wonder if you have WC and OT connected the boiler just ignores the WC?
Hi. Very nice explanation. Thanks. I have a logic system max s30 boiler on s plan connection wih Drayton wiser 2 channel thermostat. I wanted to connect it with hot water priority and opentherm for central heating. I was wondering if you can connect the wires in a way that if the hot water valve is open, it stops the central heating valve from opening? Then you wouldn't need to change the CH NC valve into a CH NO valve. Or am I missing something? You would need hot water cylinder thermostat off in order for the central heating valve to receive any electricity to open. Thermostat central heating wouldn't be able to energize the CH valve if the HW valve is open, hence not energizing the boiler on SL connection. That way no need to change the CH valve to NO. I'm probably missing something, am I not?
Honestly i think this is overkill, does it work yes but the cost and complications are greater than benefit. Firstly towel rads should be plumbed onto coil get rid of zv, then uf doesn't need zv if u have actuators and wiring center and then u are only left with hw/ch zv that can go SL can go directly into boiler. So that would be mine idea how to simplified things. Yes i see issue of having UF at high temperature but mixing valve would do the job,not the best efficiency to heat up water to 50 and then cool it down but that's the compromise i would prefer compared to having 4 zv valves that on daily basis fails
Sorry silly question: got 12 radiators in house (one of them is vertical radiator round 1200w) Having an Ideal Vogue System Boiler 18kW installed. Also HOT WATER Prioritisation. Is the 18kW more than enough or would it struggle? People say 24kw is minimum.
@@UrbanPlumbers thanks man but why are people worrying me :( i am just worried if it hits -1 in winter and I need hot water and heating = hot water prio. Still 18kW SYSTEM boiler is more than enough for 3 bed, 1 ensuite 1 bathroom and 12 radiators or so? Hope i wont regret this lol
So in theory, using HWP means that the bypass valve should never be needed as there's always flow through either HW or CH circuits. During pump over-run, the CH valve will be open. Good to keep it though just in case a zone valve fails I guess?
@@UrbanPlumbers I literally just thought of that and was about to edit my previous comment lol. Yes so assuming you have some rads without TRVs and a boiler with a modulating pump, or a pump that's set to a low speed, you'd not bother fitting a bypass in an HWP system?
@Chris-hy6jy yes, I just don’t fit them. I one knows how to set them anyway so they usually either don’t work or cause more problems than provide solutions
@@UrbanPlumbers agreed. The system in my new house has one fitted, set to 0.2 bar and the boiler has its pump set to max so it's basically bypassing all the time. Probably been like that since it was installed! I've changed the pump map to a constant lower speed and tried to adjust the ABV but it's constantly passing now even with the pump on its lowest speed so needs to be replaced or removed. I'll probably just convert to HWP and remove the ABV at the same time. Thanks for your help! 👍
Can we wire NC terminal from cylinder thermostat to CH valve brown wire. Than CH valve could be NO type like DHW, then orange wire from CH valve to SL1? This way we make sure that we fire boiler pump knowing the valve is open (in case motor within valve becomes faulty) and there is no way for the boiler to pump against close valve. For s plus situation I'd use DPDT relay to create two channels for two heating zones.
Hello. I think you are talking about a method that came to my mind. Have you done this? I was thinking a double NC 240v relay to kill the calls for heat to the 2 heating zone valves when the dhw call for heat came. Will that work and avoid the need to plumb in a new NO zone valve like in the video? Thanks
@@garethtcollinsthis setup would work. This is what the NC terminal on the cylinder stat is usually for. You wouldn’t need a relay, just wire the call for heat from the room stats to the grey on the heating zone valve(s).
If there’s no weather comp or any option to run heating at a different temp, there’s no point installing a valve for HW priority is there? Or does it still mean a tank can be heated up quicker?
Is it not possible to 'simulate' hot water priority with a smart thermostat, by scheduling hot water to come on for say 30 minutes at the same time as central heating is temporarily turned off using scheduling? You could do this a few times a day to keep HW topped up, while barely noticing that the heating has been off for a short period. I assume the boiler would then run and two different temperatures?
You still can’t have weather compensation and open therm as water would never heat up if it is cold outside. The only way to do it is with open therm boiler and ESI controls
Sorry,what I propose is to fit an unvented cyl connected to combi using a n/o and n/c 2 port valve and combi to provide d hw at utility and en suite will weather comp work with combi or do I need relay as read with intergas set up
Hey Szymon, hopefully lack of videos is purely cos your busy with work and everything else is good with you! Just wanted to point out that, at least on paper, much of the same functionality is also available on a bunch of Ideal boilers including the lowly Heat H only boilers AS LONG AS Weather Compensation is installed. Where did the link to wiring diagram(s) go??
Very educational, really like it. I am curious about the weather compensation thing. Can you go a bit deeper in that topic? Is it another device? Embedded to boiler? or what need to facilitate? pros and cons?
It is just a temperature sensor that goes outside and allows boiler to read external temperature and modulate accordingly. Is usually only costs around £40.
If the towel rails come on on hot water demand, it means that they will not come on on central heating demand right? Is there any way to make them come on in both cases?
Towel rails do not come on with hot water demand any more. They are controlled by UFH nest connected to the hot water SL from the nest - which allows programming windows for when the towel rails come one. They now come on their own (without hot water and without heating) in the summer and with heating or without heating in the winter. It is just that there was an unused connection on one of the Nests that usually is used for hot water and I used it for controlling towel rails instead. Hope it makes sense.
I am want to implement this Priority Hot Water because you say Boiler runs more effectively when on two different temperature. The plumber in UK say that we all leave boiler at 75degree and never is a problem. Question: is this wrong approach or do they just follow a tradition passed on generation after generation?? Furthermore, am I really loosing a lot between S plan and Hot water priority? Will I really loose out much or am I wasting too much time with this and unable to find somebody who has done this, seems very uncommon in UK. What is likelyhood of us demanding hot water and heating at same time? The cylinder is 130 letter tank and will be heated up once every so often. Also, what is the VALVE I need to change? What is it called so I can search it in UK. Also, what would the hot water priority be like for the Ideal Vogue max s18 and TADO starter kit 3v EU model. Much appreciate your advise
Any chance I can get hold of you. I am having a night mare. Just called Ideal tech guys and asked if boiler supports PDHW and they said "no, that depends on you cylinder as it's a system boiler and not a combi boiler". So system boiler doesn't support it? I am just going nuts now I have Ideal Max Vogue s18
@@UrbanPlumbers ur right it does, got a confirmation from them. May I ask how I search online in UK for that Normally Open valve you are referring to? Also what new cables need to be traced for TADO wireless thermostat EU model as it supports opentherm? Would appreciate it
As always really good ! Why isn't everyone using smaller (appropriate) sized boilers and changing to hot water priority in this way? I'm sure with quick reheat times it would be fine for the rads not to be on, it's only about 20 mins for a full tank, or program your water outside of the heating periods. If you were closer I would hire you !
lack of awarness is the main cause. Even boiler manufcturers are unaware of those things. Manufacturers just want to sell boilers, installers want to install it the easiest and cheapest way. There is no training that explaines those things, you need to figure it out yourself really.
@@UrbanPlumbers Asked a local plumber about this and he told me that it was a bit of a daft question (referring to me as "pal") as the hot water and central heating were the same hot water from the same boiler with modulation etc,to control the power output, did not seem to have any concept of having the boiler respond to 2 things with different power outputs, so your right, a lack of understanding from so called competent people, although i accept not all boilers are possible and maybe the normal S plan is so ingrained into some people I did mail you about my boiler and hot water as i think i will change from system boiler and vented hot water to system and unvented, maybe with intergas boiler and do as you describe (i also have solar PV diverted to immersion for extra free hot water} - was asking for some input and idea of budget. Im not sure with a 15mm incoming and 15mm gas pipe if a combi would do it for us and i would lose the solar input..... a lot to consider. I think you only work in the London area and not the midlands, right?
Great video Szymon. With Priority Hot Water, when hot water has a requirement (on schedule and below required temp) AND heating also has a requirement, is this setup basically turning the heating off rather than giving it the hotter water? So say my heating is scheduled for 6am to 9am and my hot water from 7am to 8am, will this mean my heating is not on between 7am to 8am (assuming my tank takes that long to get up to temp) ?
@@jonathanstevenson6771 yes, it's hot water OR central heating with one having a much higher flow temp than the other. We have updated our system to something similar. Hot water tank is never truly cold and with a high capacity could it's hot in under 30 mins. While heating the water the rads are off. We simply time hot water outside if our heating times when the weather is cold. Hope that helps.
@@stephenhill3593 using the control system to manage the 2 to run at different times seems a simple solution that requires no hardware change. So converting S-Plan to HWP seems a big change needing pipe work altering for ‘the off chance’ that heating and hot water come on at the same time, maybe due to fall back temps or needing additional / boost of water?
Firstly thanks for the video! I do enjoy your vids. I have an ideal max 24 heat only S plan config with Wiser heat controls. Now I've found the SL2 thanks to you and wired in the opentherm, the system is smart enough to know when there's a call for HW and CH at the same time . Only when HW is on on its own does it ramp up to 70+. When HW and CH are on it runs at whatever the high point is set to on boiler. When CH only, Opentherm sets the temp. This seems to be the best way to run the system? I only have two regular NC valves wired into the HW and CH relays as usual. I hope this is of some interest!
@@RichardABW Hmm, I've had a google for the ideal weather compensation kit installation guide and its wiring diagrams shows HW OFF going to SL2. This doesn't seem right to me, doesn't seem to fit with this: _"When the system is in a timed on period for DHW and the tank stat is not satisfied, OV will be generated on the switched live input SL2 of the boiler. This will ensure that Weather Compensation adjustment is ignored at this time. The set point will be fixed at 80 degrees. "_
You could also do this with a 3 port valve instead of a tee and normally open 2 port valve. A standard 3 port mid position would work if you joined the white and the grey together. If you can get a 3 port diverter, even better 👍🏻
Witam serdecznie!!Mam pytanie !!Czy mogę użyć combi boiler jako system żeby gas Safe zaakceptowal odbiór.? Piec ma trzy lata i rury są też 22m wszędzie dostarczają wodę !! Ktoś zrobił dobrze na cylinder z ciepłą wodą ale zamontował combi boiler !! I w domu są trzy łazienki .Pozdrawiam !!
Can somebody confirm this please?! With PDHW , does it mean hot water will always kick in automatically as soon as the temperature drops in the cylinder tank?? Or will it be controlled by human to say "switch HW on now or on schedule" I have 16yrs old cylinder tank and don't think it be a fast recovery technology and surely wouldn't want HW to kick in a lot of times through the day because 1)will be expensive and 2) heating be off during HW cycle 3) if PDHW is worth on a such old cylinder tank? If this can be clarified please!
@@UrbanPlumbers I don't like them ,but it's not been in the house long . I want to have PDHW . Worcester say I have to buy the mixer and Worester cylinder ,others say I can fit a resister in the boiler .
@@mgbroadsterJ you can get a Worcester wiring center and use any cylinder if you can fit an NTC to it. The only difference with Worcester's own cylinder is the fact that they may let you not use OV stat - just NTC.
I like this hot water priority system but how long will it take to heat the water in the cylinder so the heating can come on? Say you have the timer set to come on at 6am you don't want to wait an hour before the central heating will come on. Maybe you could set the hot water to come on at 5am 😊
You normally leave hot water on constant. Full reheat of 200l with 18kW cylinder is around 30min, but you never reheat it from cold. You would only notice it if you used a lot of hot water
@@UrbanPlumbers Oh yes I see now 😄 Why don't all manufacturers have 2 switched lives in their boilers to allow hot water priority because it can save energy especially as you can also use opentherm? Hopefully it will come with the next generation of boilers. I wish you installed in my area.
Some do! Intergas, vaillant, ideal - but usually only on top of the range boiler. People want cheap boilers, and they get what they pay for. Same goes for the installers.
@@UrbanPlumbers I'm hoping Baxi will come out with one. I do like the Ideal Vogue but it's twice the price of a Main Eco Compact. Maybe I would get that money back over time by the energy savings. Something to think about. I've always had Baxi boilers, I like them and their customer service is excellent. 😊
I think in time Heat Pumps will get a lot better and the price will come down and there will probably be newer better technologies too. But it will be decades before gas boilers are obsolete.
I have a ideal vogue gen2 system boiler and a s-plan setup to 3 ufh manifolds. I always have my boiler working on and off as the flow temp needs to be 60+ , the ufh only takes 40 max and I have aggressive zoning through genius hub. Thank god this is a quick and relatively painless change I need to make to the system to make it more efficient! (Edit: i was told by a heating guy before i has to up my s32 gen2 to somewhat stronger! I think what i need now is some modulation to lower down the heating output... there is no opentherm in genius hub so I guess I have to use weather comp.)
@@UrbanPlumbers Hi, I still haven't find anyone to do anything about it but I am thinking about the other method to keep minimum parts changed. Could it be possible, given that I can separate hot water and heating completely through genius hub, I can use ordinary NC valves but connect to SL1 and SL2 separately to use different temp settings? So the only things i need to change is the wiring, no actual wet work required.
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Hi. I don't know how long you have been in this industry but your presentation and communication skills are the best I have seen and your explanations about the whole heating and controls topic is top notch.. Keep these great videos coming.
I try my best mate ;)
I second that and very informative 👍🏻
How I’ve not found you sooner is beyond me. What an exceptional channel this is. Nothing but respect. So good at explaining things, I’m a heating engineer trying to understand PHW and you have done so in such a great way. Thank you.
No worries ! Glad you like it
Thank you so much for this. I installed a large S plan plus in my own house (bar the boiler) and it has never worked properly, purely for this reason (especially over summer months). I owe you a pint (or three) for this excellent insight and knowledge that I've got from you all for free. Thank you. 👍🏼😎
Thank you so so much for this video. Years ago my plumber did a 100% bog standard installation of an Ideal Vogue Gen2 S32, S-Plan setup. He did not bother with weather compensation or Opentherm, although he did try and do Opentherm as I put him under some pressure as I thought it should have been possible with my Nest. He could not work it out, not an old guy either!
In the last month I have re-wired my electrical junction box (was a mess) onto one of those nice Wago junction boxes, I have added the external temperature sensor, and I have added Nest Opentherm. Now my boiler runs way cooler when on heating only. Because of SL2 and the boiler knowing when it's getting a call for hot water, I have just set the 1hr HW period to coincide with a 'gap' in my Nest schedule when the heating turns off. So the outcome is nearly the same.
My only problem now is this S32 boiler is certainly too big for my house and it cycles on and off. I'm pretty sure it cycled anyway when it was set to 60 though. Wish I had the S15, and Ideal say that you cannot downgrade it by swapping parts. So if anyone wants to do a boiler swap let me know, otherwise I may up buying an S15 in a year or two! Grrr
Well done mate, good explanation. You’re the only heating engineer on TH-cam that I recommend to my students to learn from. Keep it up 👍
Thank you for watching and recommendation!
Are you using a sensor on the cylinder for PHW ?
Did this exact install today, after watching this video - works brilliantly. Cheers!
Brilliantly explained. Was a bit confused at first but when you went over it on site it was then crystal clear.
Learn so much from your video’s, a true engineer of heating. I’ll be looking you up for my next install ✔️
Please do! Thanks for watching.
Hi Your explanation is second to none
thank you!
I'm retired ..so why am I still watching this stuff 😁? Because you can never stop learning can you 👍
cheers, thanks for watching!
If only all engineers were this knowledgeable. I've just had a new boiler and controls fitted, both Opentherm compatible yet they wired it as a normal on / off system!
Hi @UrbanPlumbers Good to see you posting here again :) Two things, I'm 99.99% sure the Ideal Max Logic2 Heat boiler supports PDHW (I hope so having it fitted next week)? And as has been asked by others please can you post the updated schematic diagram. Thank you.
Hi Your explanation is second to none
If All houses had adequate insulation then running the boiler at a much lower flame or burner rate should rectify the heat loss within the property
Hey Szymon, If you were using opentherm on the heating, does SL1 terminal get left empty at the board? And you just run your two wires from opentherm connection at receiver to the OT connection on the right hand side of the board? Cheers
No, you still need sl1 and sl2 connected
Great explanation. I can’t help thinking that a much cheaper and simpler resolution would be to time the HW to only come on during the CH OFF periods, even if it’s for an hour in the morning and an hour in the afternoon. Any underfloor zones shouldn’t cool down that much in the time
Yes you could do that on this boiler, but if you fire both DHW and CH at the same time radiators and UFH with get 80C water going to them, which is just unnecessary.
A great explanation. As a heating professional myself I really enjoy your clear no nonsense presentations. Whilst I fully understand why you’d do this, I’m not sure for at best a ten percent saving that many would. I would also worry about someone following in about six or eight years on an emergency call out one night and fitting a std NC 2port in place of that NO 2 port. I think you’d need to label it very clearly. My experience of weather compensation has been mixed at best. Confuses the hell out of customers when their rads seem to have a mind of their own. I’d much rather just use something like open therm that’s doing it’s thing unseen in the background by the customers.
It’s not the system that’s the problem. It’s the quality of gas engineer that is lacking.
Any decent engineer will understand the set up in no time!
@@UrbanPlumbers yep I totally agree. The lack of underpinning knowledge I see weekly is actually quite worrying and gives the industry a bad name. Only this week I went to a boiler, a previous company attended, told the customer they needed a new boiler as parts were obsolete, turned it off, left them no heating, quoted 4K for a replacement. I ordered the parts on a next day delivery and had it working for less than £300 all in. I see it constantly, a complete lack of even basic sequences of ignition, or an understanding of what the numbers on a FGA are even telling them. So-called engineers who don’t even know how to min/max a boiler. I had a call from a plumber of about thirty years in the industry. Changed a rad. System wouldn’t fill. When I told him to check the cold feed wasn’t blocked he had no concept of what I meant. And on and on and on.
I am currently doing an installation with the same set up as this. My question is what is the best option for customer controlling the heating? Efficiency wise I imagine purely relying on weather comp would be best but there is no option to create a slightly lower set back temperature for overnight.
Great presentation. Very useful.
If you have an opentherm thermostat is there any advantage to getting the exterior temp sensor as well?
Been doing this for the last 12 years using Glowworm boilers with systempro and Climapro controllers, give the best results with underfloor heating (no mixing set or pump needed with weather comp) and with fanned low temp rads, set call for hot water to 73degs and call to heating at 40 odd, massive fuel efficiency.
Love your videos man. Helped me a lot thanks for the dedication 👊👊
I love your videos. I thought I had an S-plan plus (that's how it's plumbed), but I'm now pretty sure I have hot water priorty. Vaillant system boiler with all Vaillant controls and it will never allow hot water charging and heating at the same time. The only frustration is that it seems to take an age to switch from hot water charging back to heating. It does some kind of cool down precedure before it starts firing for the heating? Seems a waste of energy.
Thanks a lot, this is a great video as I’m wanting to move away from traditional system set ups
PDHW is great but I would not use Ideal boiler for that. You cant adjust pump speed on it. Silly boiler really
Should that boiler be piped up for seperation, because you have ufh and radiators . You cant have two modulating pumps in line .
Great presentation. I have an S Plan + system with UFH on the ground floor and radiators on the 1st floor. Boiler is Ideal Logic S18 which will operate with weather comp.
In the X Plan system you describe, if it closes the normally open valve at the same time that the UFH is calling for heat, what effect will it have on the UFH system when it can’t get any hot water to top up the circuit. Also my home is a new build and the radiators are quite small. Would they have designed the radiator circuit to use water above 60 degrees?
When converting and S Plan+ system to PDHW could you avoid the need for a new NO zone valve on the heating size by wiring a double NC relay that is energised by the DHW brown which would kill either or both browns to each heating zone valve? Thanks
Great video explaining this. I'm currently pricing up a job with the same boiler. I plan to fit a high gain cylinder. Would you leave the hot water demand on all the time as it should only take 10-15 minutes to heat up or would you still time this?
Will the weather comp stop the ufh less pro active ?
Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us.
No worries. Thanks for watching
the flat im about to move into has an S plan... I like the idea of the HW priority. I have a nest thermostat 3. so I will aim to get a plumber locally to fot both these. - very informative video. Always fun to watch
make sure that the boiler that is there supports DHW. Not many boilers do.
@@UrbanPlumbers thanks for the reply, if it doesn't (most likely it doesn't) I'll probably swap it later anyway. for reference programmer is a danfoss tp9 and the boiler is a potterton Promax HE plus. Funny setup as the thermostat is digital and on the programmer with just a room sensor in the living room (when I visited the place).
Another great video. Can you just clear up the use of opentherm (Gen3 Nest) with an S plan. TY.
Hello from Dublin …. Very well explained. Doing this with Viesmann boilers from 2017 😁
Good man. Can you do it without having to do 4 pipes set up ?
Do you have a wiring diagram for your Viessman boiler on this X-plan system?
Fantastic video 🎉 well explained
Sorry, with PDHW does it mean the HW will always kick in whenever boiler is on? Or can it be controlled to call between CH and HW?
Also, does cylinder tank need a temperature measurement control or will it know that HW is satisfied ?
Thanks for the informative video, seems odd we have to add an extra valve to override other valves already fitted, a better way surely would be for the boiler to control the valves based on it’s Input from the thermostat and hot water stat? But this way keeps it more traditional I guess?
The only boiler that does it this way is Vaillant, but then you have to use vaillant wiring center and vaillant controls.
Other way is what viessman and worcester do with 4 pipe set up Ans internal diverter valve.
Otherwise you have to do x plan with additional normally open zone valve.
Not a problem if there is 1 heating zone as only 2 valves required, but with more hearing zones you have to keep existing valves and add NO valve.
@@UrbanPlumbers Thanks for taking the time to reply, not heard of the X plan before you mentioned it, looks good, all the best for your channel - its really good and clear, plus i learnt somthing so thanks!
I watch your videos regularly and often goes above my head. My query is what is the ideal flow temp and range rating to heat an unvented indirect 250l tempest cylinder? Also how long the hot water program may need to run to heat 35 degree water to 60 degree?
Hi again urban I’m doing a big install in an old Victorian home with three zones, basement,ground floor, first floor then obviously hot water cylinder, so an s plan plus but HWP, I was thinking of using a low loss header as it is quite a big property, 6 bathroom 5 bathrooms and multiple living rooms and kitchens, my low loss Calc came out at needing a little less then 150k btu’s, which is in return 43kw I’m thinking of putting in a 32kw as all zone will never be in use, what is your opinion? My other option is to fit the bigger 40kw, as fitting two boilers isn’t really possible due to fluing the two boilers as the exit point would mean there are to close to one another. And I’m assuming with a low loss I can just put the normally open on the flow out of the low loss and run as you describe, really love the videos👌🏻
Great presentation and explanations. Well done.
Glad you liked it!
@@UrbanPlumbers Hi again. Currently I have a Lamborghini combi heater for more than 12 years but also have from my brother a brand new Remeha Avanta 30s (is an older model) and Remeha iSense thermostat with outdoor sensor. What's your advice, could I use this Remeha adding a hot water cylinder, zone valves, etc, greatly explained in your movie? Would be a big save for me but also a nice project. Thanks for your answer.
Hey, I'm a newly qualified engineer and find videos like this really useful!
Could you tell me when wiring OT for heating with an S plan, I would REMOVE the 230v signal for the heating and KEEP the 230v signal for DHW?
So when both HTG and DHW are called at the same time, it would recieve signals from both OT and 230V but prioritise the DHW?
Thanks for your help, keep up the awesome vids!
How do you wire it if you want weather comp for the radiators and not the uf heating ?
If I remove a gravity fed floor standing boiler and replace it with a Ideal Vogue Max system boiler do I not need a cylinder stat ?
And your saying the Normally open valve
Goes on the heating pipe only ? So then how would you get the temperature correct inside the cylinder?
Obviously the floor standing boiler uses its own stat within the boiler to control the hw as there are no valves whatsoever on the system at the moment, therefore it must bypass to the bathroom also
Can u please clarify this:
PDHW will not work or be suitable IF water tank is not high pressurized / fast recovery?
It is 16yrs invented tank. Does PDHW work only on specific cylinder tank?
Hi, could you plz check the link for wiring diagram.. it doesn't work.
Is there any wiring diagram for s plan + in this scenario, with 1 NO valve followed by ( heating NC valve +ufh NC valve) and NC valve for hot water
Thanks
Well! Think I need to get NEST and ditch TADO cos nobody is able to figure it out!
So, I will purchase the NO valve to make it PDHW with Opentherm. But but but ... Since I have a system boiler and water tank which also has a Coil Electrical Immersion (think can heat water tank using electricity as a quick option). How does that work with NEST and Opentherm and PDHW?
Will that fall out completely ? How is that managed then? Will that be via nest too or will remain a separate switch. the Honeywell old thermostat controller has option to call for Boost. Btw. how would I know what's the temperature in the hot water tank in order to call for hot water or maybe it be a case checking if hot water is getting cold lol
Any thoughts about Electric Immersion and how that would be controlled? Or will that fall out and become unusable because PDHW will simply switch off CH and feed heat to tank only? Just thinking if it's freezing cold and you need both HW and CH ? 😟
Great video - I've subscribed. Can hot water priority be set up on a vented system (subject to the correct boiler being installed) should the mains flow/pressure not be suitable for an unvented system?
Vented or unvented makes no difference. Both can be easily done on PDHW with a right boiler.
very informative, thank you
Thanks for watching !
Thanks
Great video Szymon, you're in a league of your own on this topic! All concepts regarding DHWP clearly explained 👏.
With regard to fitting the auto bypass on this install, do you have to be careful when setting the pump mode so that the two don't 'argue' with each other? As I understand it, proportional pressure curves are best avoided...
Great video and it makes great sense
thnaks!
Have got the new boiler installed now. The plumber noted that the S PLAN supports hot priority provided the Tado Smart thermostat supports it.
Is this correct? What plan needed for the hot priority ?
S plan is not PDHW
@@UrbanPlumbers and requires to change the heating zone valves to something else? open Return?
Is the HotWater priority dependant on the boiler or the thermostat? Electrician was not sure how POHW would benefit :/
Besides are you familiar with Tado Starter Kit EU model? Somehow it has one zone connection but meant to support both hot water and heating via opentherm.
Electrician gave up
@@bimiuk4051 the eu Tado wireless receiver could only support hot water if you had an opentherm capable tank, and even then I’m not sure how you’d wire it
@@Leonards-leopard @urbanPlumbers claims that it works opentherm + hot water priority.
Still waiting for his final video to confirm as I need to return it otherwise
Hi mate, top video. So does this mean that when it's wired with hot water priority; the heating will stay off untill the hot water reaches the required temperature?
Yes, correct.
Can the ideal logic do this or just the vogue. How can you know if a boiler can do HW priority
yes, logic can do that - very badly - but it is about doable. I would suggest a better boiler such as Viessmann or Vaillant instead, especially with logic catching fire now.
Allo pal. Just a quick one. If you have only one switch live down to boiler how would you do this kind of system as boiler and cylinder are opposite ends of house without lifting boards up . Is there a wireless option . Any of your knowledge would be much appreciated
Yep, Rf live switch, salus does one
Many thanks for reply I’ll have a search for it
Great informative video. Would you still recommend this system with a house hold that has a high usage of hot-water where they might find the heating will not come on due to hot-water being priority . Remember the days first fitting radiator thermostatic valves and get called up with customer saying her radiators not working when heating is on. Of course it had turned of with temperature within the room. Trying to explain that to someone who has been used to feeling every radiator roasting hot was a challenge
You can still time water. If high usage then use a high gain cylinder that can take the full kW output of the boiler.
The cylinder here is too big. In PDHW you only need 100-120l of stored water as it operates pretty much like a combi boiler - reheats the water as you use it.
Again all combis stop the heating when in use and no one notices
Love your work! Would love you to come and sort my heating out!
Hi, Love your videos adn style so huge thank you for the videos. NOTE: the schematic link is not working in your description "Ideal Vogue Gen2 Hot Water Priority Wiring Schematics". Is there any chance you could update the link? Thanks in advance :)
Yes I will do once I get some time off. Original schematics had an error.
Is the Vogue the only Ideal which can do PDHW ,in the Ideal range .
Hi, I'm considering going down this route too, with an Ideal boiler and I'd also like to know which boilers from their range are suitable. Does it have to be a system boiler with integral pump? Or can you do it with a heat only boiler from their range (or other manufacturer) and retain the external pump? I know you are busy @UrbanPlumbers but would be great to get your input. Thanks
Does it have a sensor on the cylinder with the Ideal boiler ?
No, just on/off
Great video and knowledgeable content 👍
Hi mate, so If the boiler was heat only, s plan plus with normally open valve before CH valves, how does the pump fire ? Great videos 👌
Depends on the boiler. Some boiler need a pump overrun so the boiler supplies power to the pump, other guy will need to use a relay to separate switched lives and fire the pump.
Thank you sir, going to do it to my system before offering it to customers. Mines a logic heat 24 (already fitted before we moved in) s plan plus with 2x nest. Thanks again.
Hi, I have an Ideal Vogue Max System 26, will this run like your set up on here if the wiring is altered? only wired into SL1 at moment. I know I will have to add the N/O CH valve etc. Cheers Chris
Yes, you can do PDHW on that boiler
Waw, i think its the easiest best informative video ever on youtube about HWPS.
I really don’t know how on earth I didn’t come across ur page and videos before. Just amazing clarity and explanation . I just got one issue I didn’t understand is the towel rail zone if it comes with hot water the NO ZV will block its flow regardless so how it will works.
Also which Worcester or vaillant boilers that does hot water priority.
Thanks for ur time and effort.
the towel rails do not come with hot water. I just used a hot water realy on the 2nd nest to control the towel rails separately.
Worcester CDI and 8000 can do PDHW with additional internal diverter that needs to be installed before the boiler is installed.
All vaillants 6xx series can do PDHW but only with Vaillant own wiring center and controls.
A relay on 2nd nest.?!
Thats need one of the great videos you do
Many thanks
I wish I had discovered your channel a few months ago… I’ve just had a combi replaced with a new s-plan system (indirect cylinder & ideal logic system boiler). Your videos have been perfect to figure why my system is so inefficient, I wish I had not taken my plumber’s advice and found your info first 😭
What do you recommend for monitoring cylinder temp, to help guide me on my hot water schedule on Hive? Would you recommend the Tesla T-smart?
What boiler do you have? Some s plans can be easily converted into PDHW
@@UrbanPlumbers it’s an ideal logic+ system s30, with a 300ltr cylinder, and 2 zone CH
@@thomasevans1959 that boiler can be easily converted into weather comp for CH and PDHW for hot water. Where are you based please?
That’s good news! Exeter… You heading to the south west any time soon?!
@@thomasevans1959 Ashton Vile - AGV Plumbing & Heating Ltd is in your area. I am sure he can help you with PDHW on your boiler.
guess they want them on on HW demand to have them on when they take a shower but like that they would have them on even when they wash dishes in the kitchen or just use a wash basin in the bathroom. I am wondering if this continuous switching on and off could get the zone valve and the boiler ignition to get faulty. And also they would go on in the summer when there is 30 degree Celsius outside and you really don't want them on while you are taking a shower. Is that right?
No. They come on with 2nd Nest - just programmer on sl normally designed to control hot water.
Reason is - that way they can have towel rails on in the summer without central heating.
Hot water is independent from towel rails as other neat controls hot water
Hope it makes sense
Is this the UPDATED video? As u taken it off cos of a minor confusion.
Pls confirm so I can show this show to the plumber.
No, it’s an old one.
@@UrbanPlumbers what is the updated version ? If the plumber follows the instruction, will it be wrong?
Fantastic idea do you have a pipe diagram I'd like to show some other engineers
it is all in the video - wiring and pipe layout. Screen shot it?
Great video, thank you 👍
Glad you enjoyed it
Absolutely superb video, I have an Ideal Vogue Gen 2 S15 with Evohome with a rads and UFH, and trying to digest all this on an S plan with only 1 port valve since Evohome has its own valves.
One question, since I’ve been told this is not possible - Opentherm and WC on the Ideal, I’ve been told they don’t work together and Opentherm had a better erP class and therefore remove the WC. I’m guessing you disagree with this?
I’ve learnt a lot from your video, thank you
Oh I’m guessing that me removing a port valve negates my requirement for a “normally open valve” as I’m using Evohomes valve as individual ones since all zones have actuators
Be good to get an answer to the Opentherm vs WC. Are they not both used then? I'd assumed that my Nest would lower the power of the boiler as target temp was approached, and the boiler would just try and supply however many kW at whatever the WC said was the most efficient temp to achieve it by adjusting the burn/flow. A question: How big is your house and does your boiler cycle when it's on a low setting (i.e. it's not super cold)? I have an S32 and it's too big for me.
@@RichardABW you can’t use Opentherm and WC together, they fight each other. As I understand it Opentherm is ErP class VIII (8) and WC is ErP class V (5). So mine is just on Opentherm.
I have a S15, my house is EPC B and I have UFH. My output temp is 38°C, though I could go lower. Heating comes on three times a day for anything from 1 1/2 hours to 1/2 hours each time. Three times as if left on the boiler then cycles as house doesn’t lose that much heat. UFH is one big slab that releases heat very slowly too.
The ideal Vogue allows you to set the max temperature (so HW will default to this), and the dial allows you to alter the flow temp of the boiler for heating, so HW temps and Heating are different. Atm I’m on Octopus Go faster so it’s slightly cheaper to heat HW with electricity, so my boiler is currently at 92% efficiency.
@@jimmyc38 Thanks, how do you know it's at 92%? There is that efficiency bar inside the boiler menu, but it doesn't seem to move much.
It would be interesting to hear what Szymon makes of using OT and WC at the same time. It was a few weeks ago I watched this video but I don't think he suggests you cannot in it? Also I don't think the boiler manual suggests it's an issue. Surly all the WC is doing is picking an appropriate flow temp automatically, like you are now doing manually with the knob on the front?
@@RichardABW because on the Ideal Vogue there is an option to look at boiler efficiency. It was Ideal that told me that their boilers don’t allow the two, and it was them that told me Opentherm is better. Also I’m very clued up on Evohome and know that this is ErP class 8 on Opentherm. Just be mindful that zoning and low temps have to be done in a balanced way, so that you don’t fine zone so as to cause the boiler to cycle. Batch zone is how you would do it, especially if your rads are “normal” size and not larger ones. For me UFH is my saving grace.
@@jimmyc38 Yes, I have an Ideal Vogue, I've previously just seen question marks over that boiler efficiency reading. I talked to Ideal too just 30 mins ago and they said the same to me as they did to you. I have now removed my WC sensor. I think the boiler seems to be working in exactly the same way, I wonder if you have WC and OT connected the boiler just ignores the WC?
Hi. Very nice explanation. Thanks.
I have a logic system max s30 boiler on s plan connection wih Drayton wiser 2 channel thermostat. I wanted to connect it with hot water priority and opentherm for central heating. I was wondering if you can connect the wires in a way that if the hot water valve is open, it stops the central heating valve from opening? Then you wouldn't need to change the CH NC valve into a CH NO valve. Or am I missing something? You would need hot water cylinder thermostat off in order for the central heating valve to receive any electricity to open.
Thermostat central heating wouldn't be able to energize the CH valve if the HW valve is open, hence not energizing the boiler on SL connection. That way no need to change the CH valve to NO.
I'm probably missing something, am I not?
You can use a relay to interrupt power supply to heating zones when there is demand for hot water
@@UrbanPlumbers thanks for your reply. This saves me from replumbing the whole system.
Honestly i think this is overkill, does it work yes but the cost and complications are greater than benefit. Firstly towel rads should be plumbed onto coil get rid of zv, then uf doesn't need zv if u have actuators and wiring center and then u are only left with hw/ch zv that can go SL can go directly into boiler. So that would be mine idea how to simplified things. Yes i see issue of having UF at high temperature but mixing valve would do the job,not the best efficiency to heat up water to 50 and then cool it down but that's the compromise i would prefer compared to having 4 zv valves that on daily basis fails
Sorry silly question: got 12 radiators in house (one of them is vertical radiator round 1200w)
Having an Ideal Vogue System Boiler 18kW installed. Also HOT WATER Prioritisation.
Is the 18kW more than enough or would it struggle? People say 24kw is minimum.
yep - 18kW most likely is double what you need. Keep it that way - it will be more efficient on both heating and hot water than 24 or 30
@@UrbanPlumbers thanks man but why are people worrying me :( i am just worried if it hits -1 in winter and I need hot water and heating = hot water prio.
Still 18kW SYSTEM boiler is more than enough for 3 bed, 1 ensuite 1 bathroom and 12 radiators or so?
Hope i wont regret this lol
So in theory, using HWP means that the bypass valve should never be needed as there's always flow through either HW or CH circuits. During pump over-run, the CH valve will be open. Good to keep it though just in case a zone valve fails I guess?
You might need not on heating of TRVs close. I don’t use any.
@@UrbanPlumbers I literally just thought of that and was about to edit my previous comment lol. Yes so assuming you have some rads without TRVs and a boiler with a modulating pump, or a pump that's set to a low speed, you'd not bother fitting a bypass in an HWP system?
@Chris-hy6jy yes, I just don’t fit them. I one knows how to set them anyway so they usually either don’t work or cause more problems than provide solutions
@@UrbanPlumbers agreed. The system in my new house has one fitted, set to 0.2 bar and the boiler has its pump set to max so it's basically bypassing all the time. Probably been like that since it was installed! I've changed the pump map to a constant lower speed and tried to adjust the ABV but it's constantly passing now even with the pump on its lowest speed so needs to be replaced or removed. I'll probably just convert to HWP and remove the ABV at the same time. Thanks for your help! 👍
Can we wire NC terminal from cylinder thermostat to CH valve brown wire. Than CH valve could be NO type like DHW, then orange wire from CH valve to SL1?
This way we make sure that we fire boiler pump knowing the valve is open (in case motor within valve becomes faulty) and there is no way for the boiler to pump against close valve.
For s plus situation I'd use DPDT relay to create two channels for two heating zones.
Hello. I think you are talking about a method that came to my mind. Have you done this? I was thinking a double NC 240v relay to kill the calls for heat to the 2 heating zone valves when the dhw call for heat came. Will that work and avoid the need to plumb in a new NO zone valve like in the video? Thanks
@@garethtcollinsthis setup would work. This is what the NC terminal on the cylinder stat is usually for. You wouldn’t need a relay, just wire the call for heat from the room stats to the grey on the heating zone valve(s).
If there’s no weather comp or any option to run heating at a different temp, there’s no point installing a valve for HW priority is there? Or does it still mean a tank can be heated up quicker?
No point. You can just use programmer to time it independently from the heating
Good explanation. Even I understood it.😀👍
Nice one!
Is it not possible to 'simulate' hot water priority with a smart thermostat, by scheduling hot water to come on for say 30 minutes at the same time as central heating is temporarily turned off using scheduling? You could do this a few times a day to keep HW topped up, while barely noticing that the heating has been off for a short period. I assume the boiler would then run and two different temperatures?
You still can’t have weather compensation and open therm as water would never heat up if it is cold outside.
The only way to do it is with open therm boiler and ESI controls
John Ewart. Would hot water priority work with Vogue combi rather than system boiler
combi boiler IS already a hot water proprity device!
Sorry,what I propose is to fit an unvented cyl connected to combi using a n/o and n/c 2 port valve and combi to provide d hw at utility and en suite will weather comp work with combi or do I need relay as read with intergas set up
Hey Szymon, hopefully lack of videos is purely cos your busy with work and everything else is good with you! Just wanted to point out that, at least on paper, much of the same functionality is also available on a bunch of Ideal boilers including the lowly Heat H only boilers AS LONG AS Weather Compensation is installed.
Where did the link to wiring diagram(s) go??
yes, mad busy so no time to film. Also the diagram had a mistake, i will have to correct it one day.
Very educational, really like it. I am curious about the weather compensation thing. Can you go a bit deeper in that topic? Is it another device? Embedded to boiler? or what need to facilitate? pros and cons?
It is just a temperature sensor that goes outside and allows boiler to read external temperature and modulate accordingly. Is usually only costs around £40.
@@UrbanPlumbers of 5£ for an 10k ntc ;)
Plus£35 for little plastic enclosure :)
If the towel rails come on on hot water demand, it means that they will not come on on central heating demand right? Is there any way to make them come on in both cases?
Towel rails do not come on with hot water demand any more. They are controlled by UFH nest connected to the hot water SL from the nest - which allows programming windows for when the towel rails come one. They now come on their own (without hot water and without heating) in the summer and with heating or without heating in the winter.
It is just that there was an unused connection on one of the Nests that usually is used for hot water and I used it for controlling towel rails instead.
Hope it makes sense.
Brilliant thanks
no worries
I am want to implement this Priority Hot Water because you say Boiler runs more effectively when on two different temperature.
The plumber in UK say that we all leave boiler at 75degree and never is a problem.
Question: is this wrong approach or do they just follow a tradition passed on generation after generation??
Furthermore, am I really loosing a lot between S plan and Hot water priority? Will I really loose out much or am I wasting too much time with this and unable to find somebody who has done this, seems very uncommon in UK.
What is likelyhood of us demanding hot water and heating at same time? The cylinder is 130 letter tank and will be heated up once every so often.
Also, what is the VALVE I need to change? What is it called so I can search it in UK.
Also, what would the hot water priority be like for the Ideal Vogue max s18 and TADO starter kit 3v EU model.
Much appreciate your advise
The Tado eu starter kit doesn’t have hot water relay, and the UK one doesn’t have Opentherm, so you’ll need to use something else
@@Leonards-leopard really? So why is he claiming it will work ?
Good idea
thanks ;)
Any chance I can get hold of you. I am having a night mare. Just called Ideal tech guys and asked if boiler supports PDHW and they said "no, that depends on you cylinder as it's a system boiler and not a combi boiler".
So system boiler doesn't support it?
I am just going nuts now
I have Ideal Max Vogue s18
Yes your boiler supports PDHW, ideal technical don’t know the product they sell or understand what it can do
@@UrbanPlumbers ur right it does, got a confirmation from them. May I ask how I search online in UK for that Normally Open valve you are referring to? Also what new cables need to be traced for TADO wireless thermostat EU model as it supports opentherm?
Would appreciate it
@@bimiuk4051 theintergasshop.co.uk/motorised-zone-valves/716-honeywell-v4043b1257-22mm-normally-open-2-port-motorised-zone-valve.html
Good video, will spread it💪. Pozdro
Please do!
As always really good ! Why isn't everyone using smaller (appropriate) sized boilers and changing to hot water priority in this way?
I'm sure with quick reheat times it would be fine for the rads not to be on, it's only about 20 mins for a full tank, or program your water outside of the heating periods.
If you were closer I would hire you !
lack of awarness is the main cause. Even boiler manufcturers are unaware of those things. Manufacturers just want to sell boilers, installers want to install it the easiest and cheapest way.
There is no training that explaines those things, you need to figure it out yourself really.
@@UrbanPlumbers Asked a local plumber about this and he told me that it was a bit of a daft question (referring to me as "pal") as the hot water and central heating were the same hot water from the same boiler with modulation etc,to control the power output, did not seem to have any concept of having the boiler respond to 2 things with different power outputs, so your right, a lack of understanding from so called competent people, although i accept not all boilers are possible and maybe the normal S plan is so ingrained into some people
I did mail you about my boiler and hot water as i think i will change from system boiler and vented hot water to system and unvented, maybe with intergas boiler and do as you describe (i also have solar PV diverted to immersion for extra free hot water} - was asking for some input and idea of budget. Im not sure with a 15mm incoming and 15mm gas pipe if a combi would do it for us and i would lose the solar input..... a lot to consider. I think you only work in the London area and not the midlands, right?
Great video Szymon.
With Priority Hot Water, when hot water has a requirement (on schedule and below required temp) AND heating also has a requirement, is this setup basically turning the heating off rather than giving it the hotter water?
So say my heating is scheduled for 6am to 9am and my hot water from 7am to 8am, will this mean my heating is not on between 7am to 8am (assuming my tank takes that long to get up to temp) ?
@@jonathanstevenson6771 yes, it's hot water OR central heating with one having a much higher flow temp than the other. We have updated our system to something similar. Hot water tank is never truly cold and with a high capacity could it's hot in under 30 mins. While heating the water the rads are off.
We simply time hot water outside if our heating times when the weather is cold.
Hope that helps.
@@stephenhill3593 using the control system to manage the 2 to run at different times seems a simple solution that requires no hardware change. So converting S-Plan to HWP seems a big change needing pipe work altering for ‘the off chance’ that heating and hot water come on at the same time, maybe due to fall back temps or needing additional / boost of water?
Firstly thanks for the video! I do enjoy your vids. I have an ideal max 24 heat only S plan config with Wiser heat controls. Now I've found the SL2 thanks to you and wired in the opentherm, the system is smart enough to know when there's a call for HW and CH at the same time . Only when HW is on on its own does it ramp up to 70+. When HW and CH are on it runs at whatever the high point is set to on boiler. When CH only, Opentherm sets the temp. This seems to be the best way to run the system?
I only have two regular NC valves wired into the HW and CH relays as usual.
I hope this is of some interest!
Can I ask how you've wired the pump?
Set your timers so that the CH is not on at the same time as HW. Also if you use a Nest or similar, disable any randomly running legionella cycles.
I'm surprised it picks the lower flow temperature when there's a call for both HW & CH. The hot water cylinder stat would never turn off!
@@shm5547 Agree, cannot believe that this is true. I can test it out a bit later.
@@RichardABW Hmm, I've had a google for the ideal weather compensation kit installation guide and its wiring diagrams shows HW OFF going to SL2. This doesn't seem right to me, doesn't seem to fit with this:
_"When the system is in a timed on period for DHW and the tank stat is not satisfied, OV will be generated on the switched live input SL2 of the boiler.
This will ensure that Weather Compensation adjustment is ignored at this time. The set point will be fixed at 80 degrees.
"_
You could also do this with a 3 port valve instead of a tee and normally open 2 port valve. A standard 3 port mid position would work if you joined the white and the grey together. If you can get a 3 port diverter, even better 👍🏻
yes, I do it this way sometimes - you just need to remember to put the 3 port other way round!
@@UrbanPlumbers 😉
Hi, can you recomend some heating cours? I remeber you recomend one in one of you movie but cant remember what cours that was. Thx. and all the best.
Northampton heating academy with Kimbo and Heating Mastery with heat geek. Message me if you want discount for those sources please.
@@UrbanPlumbers obejrzałem wszystkie filmy i znalazłem. Za kurs już zapłaciłem ale dzięki. Bardzo dobre filmy. Pozdrawiam.
@@tomggroup1230 ktory kurs kupiles?
@@UrbanPlumbers Northampton heating academy,
@@tomggroup1230 to dobre na poczatek. Potem zrob heat geek - drogi ale warty kazdego £££
Keep up the good work 👍
I am trying
Brilliant video.
Could you please post the link to the schematics please
Many Thanks
Will post them by the end of the week. They are ready but I need to upload them to my website first.
www.urbanplumbers.co.uk/ideal-vogue-gen2-system-boiler-hot-water-priority-wiring-and-system-layout-diagramas/
Witam serdecznie!!Mam pytanie !!Czy mogę użyć combi boiler jako system żeby gas Safe zaakceptowal odbiór.?
Piec ma trzy lata i rury są też 22m wszędzie dostarczają wodę !! Ktoś zrobił dobrze na cylinder z ciepłą wodą ale zamontował combi boiler !! I w domu są trzy łazienki .Pozdrawiam !!
Can somebody confirm this please?!
With PDHW , does it mean hot water will always kick in automatically as soon as the temperature drops in the cylinder tank??
Or will it be controlled by human to say "switch HW on now or on schedule"
I have 16yrs old cylinder tank and don't think it be a fast recovery technology and surely wouldn't want HW to kick in a lot of times through the day because 1)will be expensive and 2) heating be off during HW cycle 3) if PDHW is worth on a such old cylinder tank?
If this can be clarified please!
Can somebody redraw the diagram of this but with the updated version? Apparently the diagram is not correct .. thanks
can you explain this with a system Worcester life style with the added mixer .
I have never installed a Worcester system boiler. Unlikely I will ever do.
@@UrbanPlumbers I don't like them ,but it's not been in the house long .
I want to have PDHW .
Worcester say I have to buy the mixer and Worester cylinder ,others say I can fit a resister in the boiler .
@@mgbroadsterJ you can get a Worcester wiring center and use any cylinder if you can fit an NTC to it. The only difference with Worcester's own cylinder is the fact that they may let you not use OV stat - just NTC.
@@UrbanPlumbers Would it be effected with multiple heating zones ?
@@mgbroadsterJ i dont know how many zones you can do on that wiring
Great video
I like this hot water priority system but how long will it take to heat the water in the cylinder so the heating can come on? Say you have the timer set to come on at 6am you don't want to wait an hour before the central heating will come on. Maybe you could set the hot water to come on at 5am 😊
You normally leave hot water on constant. Full reheat of 200l with 18kW cylinder is around 30min, but you never reheat it from cold.
You would only notice it if you used a lot of hot water
@@UrbanPlumbers Oh yes I see now 😄 Why don't all manufacturers have 2 switched lives in their boilers to allow hot water priority because it can save energy especially as you can also use opentherm? Hopefully it will come with the next generation of boilers. I wish you installed in my area.
Some do! Intergas, vaillant, ideal - but usually only on top of the range boiler.
People want cheap boilers, and they get what they pay for. Same goes for the installers.
@@UrbanPlumbers I'm hoping Baxi will come out with one. I do like the Ideal Vogue but it's twice the price of a Main Eco Compact. Maybe I would get that money back over time by the energy savings. Something to think about. I've always had Baxi boilers, I like them and their customer service is excellent. 😊
I think in time Heat Pumps will get a lot better and the price will come down and there will probably be newer better technologies too. But it will be decades before gas boilers are obsolete.
I have a ideal vogue gen2 system boiler and a s-plan setup to 3 ufh manifolds. I always have my boiler working on and off as the flow temp needs to be 60+ , the ufh only takes 40 max and I have aggressive zoning through genius hub. Thank god this is a quick and relatively painless change I need to make to the system to make it more efficient!
(Edit: i was told by a heating guy before i has to up my s32 gen2 to somewhat stronger! I think what i need now is some modulation to lower down the heating output... there is no opentherm in genius hub so I guess I have to use weather comp.)
yes, this should help sorting your cycling and will lower your bills and also save the boiler from premature breakdowns
@@UrbanPlumbers Hi, I still haven't find anyone to do anything about it but I am thinking about the other method to keep minimum parts changed.
Could it be possible, given that I can separate hot water and heating completely through genius hub, I can use ordinary NC valves but connect to SL1 and SL2 separately to use different temp settings? So the only things i need to change is the wiring, no actual wet work required.
👍🏻 great thank you
Hello
Can this PHDW be setup on a Ideal Vogue System Boiler 18kw??
Yes
@@UrbanPlumbers how do I know if plumber does setup the PHDW system up?
He may say yes but rip me off
@@bimiuk4051 you need to find somone who know how to do it. It may not be easy. Google 'heat geek map' and try to find someone there.