I'm wondering if the 'doublet' part of a shield covering isn't the same thing we do when we add a 'jacket' to a bullet, or 'coat' a wall with something.
I think Lonely wolf may have it. Imagine this was first written down and the word coat/cote was used as in 'coating', an applied layer. A later generation reads 'cote' and thinks jacket (modern English) and writes down the next copy using the more modern (to them doublet). IOr something like that
The mixture of oak tannins with hide glue should also make the glue water-resistant when it dries up because such glue won't rehydrate as easily as pure hide glue. The tannins react with the collagen in the glue and they cross-link it so it becomes insoluble.
@@greghenrikson952 Iron gall ink oxidizes after being laid down on the parchment or paper. But if it reacts to the hide immediately that would add early water resistance.
Ok, I'm going to have to play around with that and do some testing. I have lots of hide glue, acorn shells, oak bark, oak galls, and an oak based tanning solution I made that currently has my first attempt at home tanned leather soaking in it. If it can make the hide glue more water resistant that will be awesome for the flint knapped blades and projectile points I make.
Not directly related, but useful to know .... the addition of glycerine acts as a plasticiser for hide glue, which can be extremely brittle when fully dried. Also works with PVA glues. [I use it building concertina bellows]
This is such an exciting series Tod! Thanks so much for taking us the whole way through the process. I have been inspired by you to always try and show my methodology whenever I am doing things like testing swords in my videos and I think that everyone is the better for the transparency in this type of experimental archeology.
Thanks and it is an interesting aspect. Of course things could be faked, but if you are honest and transparent people can see what is going on and and when I inevitably make mistakes people can pull me up on it publicly because they can show where the mistakes are and then we can all just keep on thinking, talking and learning. I try to show as much as I can with out being boring (or at least I try)
@@tods_workshop no no, it’s brilliant. I always say, I do things with all the scientific validity of a lad who spent the afternoon drinking rootbeer and watching mythbusters, but the process is as important as the results, especially for theses niche areas of study where I hope others will follow and use/improve on techniques featured. Keep it up dude.
I was always a Middle Ages-obsessed kid, and had I found your channel back then I would have learned to speak English 10 years earlier! Absolutely love your videos!
In Czech there are many archaic words for gambesons - mainly "prošívanice" (something padded), "krzno" (coat) and "smolenice" (something with resin/tar).
if the black gambeson idea expressed here worked, it would have potential for a mold based relatively mass production style. Layer up a bunch of linen scraps of various length, impregnate with the glue concoction, and press between a mold. Once the mold is made it would be much faster and require less expertise than custom tailoring (assuming it actually works well).
Interesting. I would assume they would have made that leap and yet I have not seen anything like that, which perhaps gives the inverse in that it is a good indicator they didn't do this. Hmmmmm
@@tods_workshop While a linen shirt is somewhat forgiving, and perhaps even a gambeson, once it is made hard by the glue I would think tailoring would become important to be practical. Try putting on a plastic injection moulded mass produced armour and see how much you feel like fighting in it (thinking just of the mass produced fit, not the protection / weight). Of course this is less of a concern with a shield, but then the wooden shield itself is the mould.
Getting the mold to not stick to the pressed piece is another challenge. Taking a clue from similar modern processes, a proper wax coating on a near polished surface. Or use facing layers impervious to the glue. No good vacuum pump in the medieval period for vacuum bagging. But piling sand should produce a similar effect of distributed pressure. What I've seen of modern ballistic armor, adhesion between fabric layers makes a difference.
I'm not an expert on it by any means, but I thought I heard that linothorax did have to be custom-made to the person. One might could wear one belonging to someone else of similar build, like a son wearing one that had once been his father's, but you're not going to be able to mass-produce them in advance.
@@antaguana to me the main question would be how hard it gets. I made a linothorax a few years ago, and as it warmed up to your body it kind of (in a limited way) molded itself to your shape as you wore it. The glue softened and weakened a bit in the areas regularly subjected to flexing, kind of like new leather getting worn in. I'm not saying I think it was done, no evidence for it, just curious to think of it could have worked.
Another material used in composite armour for eons was horse hoof. Made soft. like plastic, by heating it can be cut, shaped, thached and such, becoming strong again when cooled.
Black Gambeson ! Yay !! Earlier than 15th century, the King's Mirror (Norway 13th century) recommends to wear "thoroughly blackened" gambeson underneath and on top of the mail armour!
I suspect there are a number of separate chemical processes going on here. Iron and vinegar together form ferric and ferrous acetates, which further react with tannic acid to form iron-tannin complexes which change the colour of the wood, or in this instance leather. I do not know whether these tannin complexes include Ferric Tannate, Iron oxides definitely react with tannic acid to form ferric tannate. This compound is a solid, stable, black substance which resists further oxidation on an iron substrate, and can be used to fix rust, particularly useful in converting and fixing rust in present in pitting and micro cracking. It does not exhibit the exfoliation tendencies of red rust and is not hygroscopic. The tannate is however, a relatively porous material and freely soaks up thin oils for maximum rust protection. I have used this for years in conserving old iron tools. I think it quite possible that any tannates formed within the fibres of the leather, might well soak up [and perhaps bond with?] the hide glue in a similar way thus contributing to overall material strength. If my guess about the ferric tannate involvement is correct, in the method you are using, by far the greatest proportion of the iron would be coming from the iron filings stipulated in the recipe, rather than the small amount added in the vinegar/iron mix you added. It may well be that powdered rust might be a better bet than Iron filings, indeed in historical times, such filings may well have contained a high proportion of rust. Given that the leather and glue is a wet gloopy mess, any clean filings might convert to rust [and hence tannates], during the long drying period If memory serves, The optimal conditions for the formation of tannates from rust and tannic acid occur at a pH of between 2 and 3. The amount of vinegar added to your large vat is unlikely to have much effect on the overall pH of the glue. Again the low pH [acidity] required is likely to come from the tannic acid leaching out from within the leather, since hide glues are fairly neutral, perhaps with a tendency to slightly acidic. Be interesting to try some small test pieces to examine the 'sandwich' union between the two pieces of leather, made with glass/filings and glass/rust. Maybe test pH ? I imagine other folks here could give better insights on possible reactions as my studies in chemistry are over half a century out of date. Keep up the good work Todd .... OG
Love that you wrote the chemistry and use out. I have used vinegar to clean off rust and such nonesense off of iron, and frankly prefer using it over ferric chloride and such things when etching patternwelded steel, but it never occurred to me to add the tannins! Cheers, and thank you! :)
Appreciate the detailed explanations Tod. This type of experimental archaeology is absolutely fascinating. Also, your thoroughness and methodology is very impressive.
Thanks - its all pointless if I am not thorough and you lot don't come along for the journey. What I really dislike about TV docs is they have two facts and immediately move on to a 'therefore'...... I do try to avoid that
This is not experimental archaeology. As far as I know no archaologists are involved and Tod is not even going by his own source let alone others. It's an experiment, it's interesting, but it has little relevance when it comes to sciences.
@@caranorn Your university accreditations aren't a prerequisite for doing science. You yourself called them experiments, which is what science does. He is using known sources and attempting to reproduce the outcomes they describe with materials known to be available to them in that time period. This IS experimental archaeology. He could write a paper on this and submit it to a scientific journal and it could get accepted to further our understanding of the past.
@@petervitale4431 The main problem is that he is not following those sources. He named one last time and just as he had named it he already said which parts he would not follow. The same for the suggested Spanish recipe which he has said in this video he would simply ignore. Lastly we have a dozen and more extant shields from the period that have been analysed and published which publications should be taken into consideration for any testing. And no, if Tod were to write up his process and findings on this shield, as it stands now, this would not be accepted in a scientific publication as it lacks scientific foundation.
@@petervitale4431 But he is not using the sources. He claims to be using one, then he does something different than given in that source. He has also been given at least one more recipe and I have pointed to the dozen or more surviving shields and their analysis (Nickel, Kohlmorggen etc.). And your öast sentence is the crux, Tod could write a paper on his experiment and a scientific journal 'could' accept and publish it. Only that without following the scientific process that is highly unlikely.
John Major (1512), who wrote that the common people among the highlanders rush into battle having for body armour a linen tunic manifoldly sewn and painted or daubed with pitch, and covered with deerskin. Bishop John Lesly, around 1578, is more precise, saying the Scots Highlanders wear a coat of mail "over a leather jerkin, stout and of handsome appearance, which we call an acton." Some do suspect that the pitch and leather was more for waterproofing or keeping their mail dry instead of adding protection.
Interesting stuff once again Tod! Making hide glue in an iron pot is a bit dubious choice here, though. Manufacturers of hide glue are quite explicit in mentioning that they should not be in contact with metallic parts as they will oxidize the glue and reduce their strength.
didn't realise there were viking societies, didn't think they'd not know how to blacken leather given it's the same process for ebonising wood... and was known about 2K years before the 'vikings'... and would've been easily accomplished given they used peat bogs for iron, and peat (the ph of the substrate) + iron = iron tannate. So the water from the area they collected peat would've stained their clothes, skin, and leathers... also (while completely outside the geographical scope, but within the time period), you could make a square of period aztec armour, they used salt brine rather than glue to infuse, their version of a gambeson, fabric with salt crystals to the same effect.
My understanding is that the black leather ban is a holdover from the early days when the groups were changing from pageantry with minimal research to actually making an effort with the kit. It was put in place to stop 'bikings' in biking leathers. The reenactment group I'm with does not ban it provided it's actually ebonised like Todd did, or an otherwise natural black - but it is generally kept to a minimum. Obviously chrome tanned, or analine dyed black leather is hard banned
@@MinSredMash Shoes, belts, knife sheaths, scabbard outers - it was used a fair amount based off the archaeology. I don't know of much evidence of leather being used as clothing (like the '(b/v)ikings' you see in the media), but it was almost certainly not uncommon for specific uses.
@@Oddthetall Yes I meant in terms of clothing. I don't really see how black leather for belts/shoes/sheaths etc could pose much of a problem for authenticity.
Can you try a layer of sinew? "Schilde des Spätmittelalters und der Frühen Neuzeit" Has a lot of information about shield construction. Including an original example of a hard layer like the one discussed in this video.
Also to note is that glycerin is a plasticizer for hide glue, so if the chap boiling up the hide glue happened to include some extra bits of cartiledge or sinew in his glue pot, the result would be noticeably less brittle than a pure hide glue.
I see no reason why cartilage or sinew would provide glycerine in appreciable quantities. You can't just cook it out of fat, but it's a byproduct of soap production
Now i'm 1000% interested in this next film! for obvious research purposes (is lying through his teeth, as he is writing an RPG system where one of the materials of armour is hardened cloth)
I wonder if the "Black Gambeson" was actually something similar to oilskin canvas? They had the technology, at least in the 1500s they did, since they were using oilskin canvas for sails by then, and oilskin coats made today are notoriously tough, so I imagine multiplying that by 30 would only be that much tougher, and relatively waterproof to boot. The process doesn;t turn the fabric jet black, but it does discolor it and make it darker for sure.
Just a thought on hide vs casein glues. Both glues go back millennia and would have been in fairly common usage and made using easily available materials. Hide glue , however, softens with the application of heat particularly so, when a bit on the damp side. Casein glue does not seem to be much affected by either heat or water. Perhaps the composite material formed with leather, hide glue and glass/iron gave better 'arrow resistance 'in northern countries, which might have been somewhat negated in warmer Mediterranean climates, where the much more heat stable casein glues could have offered a distinct edge ?
I had a leather pouch got wet and had my mail gloves left on it for a, few hours. Left blue grey spots all over it. They went black yes but over the years developed into holes so watch that process. It's like very slow acid.
In a similar vein, I have often heard it said that oak was not favoured for tool handles as the tannin accelerates corrosion of the Iron - I've not really found this to be much of a problem, but oak handles will blacken fast near areas of contact, especially when damp.
There are a vast number of ways to turn raw hides into leather. For instance brain tanning being one I know has a long recorded history - every animal comes with its own tanning kit, supposedly always enough brain in a creature to tan its own hide! But who knows which one(s) were discovered first, and why other methods become used - though these people are far from stupid, if they get lucky and see a useful result they will figure out how to replicate it, and then see similarity between other materials. And if a material is really easy to source, or does the job faster/better then it will be no surprise that something common and otherwise waste gets used.
Leather tanning is very old it was done before any pure chemical compounds and even the alchemy was a thing. If everything you have are animal and plant parts and juices you use them. In not so distant past manure was used in buildings, dried as fuel for cooking and urine for washing/cleaning. Soaking things in water and stuff to make things more pliable is still very common for woodworking and basketry. I would say the chance is quite high that someone will soak something with tannin bound by hide straps in dirty water.... And then it will be just refinement which plants and which turds (and other stuff) work best.
@@ladislavseps4801 My guess is its a bit of both, but the rest is something of travel and meeting people with new ideas. Being you're a Tanner, your chances of meeting people outside your occupation who aren't chucking up their guts is pretty slim. However, if you hear that a city over the hills is using tannin and you're using turds or brains then you might decide to give it a go. Finding that it actually works you might also decide to try using two of those things together in the back of your very smelly shed and coming up with something 'new' that hasn't been done before.
well, i tried the ebonizer solution added with the rabbit skin glue. It sure colored the leather, well and fast ! But it don't seem harder than the process without the ebonizer recipe. It still can be modeled and the blade resistance is the same : i can draw with my fingernail, so... Still a fun experiment to do ! I think there is more than one bath : jelly, skin glue, ending with bee wax... Someone told me about salted solution, but i have doubts ps : maybe collophane ? I'm pretty sure we never found an entire recipe in the old books. Such a knowledge is precious, soooo precious... pps : on turnshoes they use pine goudron and fine earth... instead of skin glue and fine iron... In medieval times glass is so rare... and so precious ! in can't imagine a carolingian recipe using this
The 13th Century Norwegian book "King's Mirror" also mentions blackened gambeson. Some translators have translated it as tarred, some just as black, some as a blackened jacket. I am guessing there is disagreement there, too.
It seems like you're making a variation of iron gall ink, which mixes copperas/rusty water with tannic acid from oak galls. I'm the "scribe" in our living history group up here and I make this all the time for the public.
For anyone like myself who has been trying this method of black dye without success, the trick seems to be to wet the leather first. If I mix iron filings and vinegar and apply it to dry leather, I get a very nice grey, but it is decidedly not black. If wet the leather first, however, I get a very nice black. It isn't the same as modern chemical blacks, but a little oil or wax should make it close enough to not matter (though, I don't think it would be able to match USMC Black).
I'm really excited to see if putting a bunch of sand a iron filings between the layers, actually does anything. I could see it possibly creating more friction for the arrowhead.
5:40 I think something similar about black gambesons is also mentioned in a 13th century norwegian source on how should a the king personal retinue arm themselves
This is awesome, and yeah I turned everything on, and if I don't open youtube in a while and come back with 10+ notification, your video is always the first I click!
It's interesting to watch a skilled craftsman go through the process of creation and iteration, especially when there's a consideration of "how would they have done it?".
And of course the vinegar is acidic and will degrade the leather unless you neutralize it. Iron and vinegar solutions were used a lot in the American Civil War to stain cloth and leather. I have done experiments myself with it. It is a good dye, but it bleeds a lot.
Oh, the glue thin already has a modern counterpart with canvas and titebons three and shellack. A Scadian figures that so he could make dirt cheep rigid armor
French troops are recorded as wearing blackened linen gaiters as late as the 1780s. This would suggest that blackened linen is some type of water proofing.
Yeah, its getting a little scruffy. However, if he is like me, he'll put the new one in a drawer, and continue wearing the old one. After all, it's just a work shirt, so a few holes aren't important.
This reminded me that FandabiDozi recently did a video looking at targes and testing their bullet resistance. Not the most scientific but definitely interesting and well worth a look.
I usually HATE it when people say "I'll come back to that later..." Firstly, because as Tod found out, sometimes they just forget to come back to it. And it's not like we're going to remind them, because by that point, we've forgotten about it, too! Secondly, because if they DO remember to come back to it, the information that they then present is shorn of context and thus urgency. In other words, by the time they 'come back to it,' we no longer care about that information. We're no longer invested in finding out what more they had to say about this thing that is no longer prominent in our thoughts. Imagine if the first Lord of the Rings movie ended as soon as Aragorn came upon Boromir, finding him with arrows stuck in his chest... And that's it. There's no death scene, no farewells, no funeral, nothing. We don't know if he died or not! When the second movie starts, all we see is that Boromir isn't with them. We forget about it and we hear nothing more about it until, in the third movie, Pipin describes to Denethor what happened to Boromir (giving us the 'before' scene) and Frodo has Faramir explain about the funeral boat (giving us the 'after' scene) allowing us to piece together the final fate of Boromir. Only it does so such a long time after the event itself, that Boromir's death is shorn of any emotions that it would otherwise have elicited. We no longer care how he died, or why. Admittedly, there are- sometimes- good reasons for talking or for telling stories in this way (in the "I'll come back to that later," kind of way) but it's frequently over-used.
I can remember reading a book, many years ago, where they had recipes to make leather more resilient / harder. Cooking the leather and treating it with honey, boiling the leather and hammering it was also mentioned. Could there be processes which have been lost to history that could affect the leather even more than the treatments we know of ? It is a fascinating subject as could the natural leather back then be different from what we recognise as normal leather now, due to breeding etc.
Actually boiling leather? Not something I can see would have much success....the French "cuir boille(?)" (Not 100% sure of the spelling there) has a lot to answer for....maybe?
My arming dublet is coated in bees wax to make it more resistance too stapping/piercing , but I have only done some small tests it seems to work, but I need to do some more.
For reasons unbeknownst to me I find that hide glue stiffened natural cordage is very brittle in the end. As in it breaks quite easy, where the cord would have been impossible to break by hand before. I suspect the hide glue is not the way to go for natural cordage and you need to use something more plastic, like waxy pitch or birch bark tar. But I cannot wait to see what the sandpaper composite does.
I just got to the part where you dipped the leather into the vinigaroon. That's what that stain is called. It was used to stain wood too. With maple the rust gives it a red hue and the vinegar gives a brown hue, but that is best with the harder parts of the wood turn red and the softer (the curl or figure) turns a darker brown. Basically its an acid stain like Aquefortis (nitric acid30%-water70& and iron filings). Try the vinigaroon on ash or oak or walnut.
I wonder what advantage ground glass has/might have over sand. Sure seems like it would be easier to send little Johnny down to the river bank than to smash and grind a manufactured material.
I've read that the Aztecs would soak their cloth armour in salty brine and then when it dries the salt crystals would somehow reenforce the armour. similar concept and probably fairly easy to reproduce and test.
Salts are used by the leathermaking industry to bulk and thicken the material. It does not seems to enhance the mechanical properties much (on some aspects,to the contrary) but you definitely can easily thicken leather with brine.
@@saloneju I believe that the aztecs used cotton in their armour so obviously that would be different to leather but it is interesting that leather can be thickened with salt as well. I'm just interested in seeing the aztec salt concept tested
@@saloneju I wonder if the bulking effect is because salt added to the leather is hygroscopic and would draw in moisture ? If this is so, I think it would make the leather a bit softer rather than harder
@bigoldgrizzly Good question. Ive thought the explanation to be that when the salt recrystallizes, it grows in volume and thickens the leather as a result. Theres definitely a component of that also present,but never thought about how this might affect the moisture content of the leather. Ive made some hardness measurements on different forms of hardened and non-hardened leather,and brine-soaked leather may indeed be somewhat softer than completely untreated one.
quite curious to see how it behaves. in principle it is nearly identical to modern ballistic armor, which uses a layer of hard ceramic and a backing of aramid fibers held together with a hard rubber coating. the purpose of the ceramic is to break, bleeding off the energy of the bullet impact allowing the aramid to catch and stop it. the glass and iron filings would serve a similar function to the ceramic, while the glued leather functions as the rubber binder, and the wood beneath the aramid. i also wonder if the specific mention of a brass mortar was more important than it might appear. brass being relatively soft might allow for the glass to only be ground so fine. and if the glass is functioning similar to ceramic in modern armor, then you wouldnt want powder, but instead small chunks that can take an impact and then crack and break thus bleeding off energy.
edit: adding something of a translation to the old Swedish? I think it is old Swedish. edit the second: spellcheck There is as far as i know only one actual reference to glued cloth armour. It is from Scandinavia in the 15th century and it involves fish glue and mastic Copied from Johan S Moens post from myarmoury thread "tarred linnen gambeson ":Tak fiska lim giorth aff maghommen, viij lod, mastic ii lod, oc blanda wäl samman Sidhan lima thär mädh sammam tre äller fira faalth läroffth, oc apthera pa nokre formo som fäller segh äffther likamsens skapnath, oc tha thet är törkath bither ey järn pa thet harniskith My attempt at a translation: Take 8 weights of fishglue from "maghommen"(idk), 2 weights of mastic and mix well. then use it to glue three or four pieces of lärft (I think planeweave linen is what it means today but i am uncertain what it meant back then) attach to a form (idk but I think that om "fäller segh äffther likamsens skapnath" part means "that is made i the shape of a body") and when it is dried iron cannot bite into this breastplate
@@tods_workshop So, taking another look at the text it is uncertain how much textile they think you should use,"faalth" i am guessing is either (fåll ,fald) fold or (fält) field can also mean an unbroken piece. "läroffth" (modern lärft) could mean sail and sail canvas or any plain weave but was at some points in itself also a unit of measurement from being sold in standard 1 aln by 15 lengths, though I am unsure when this starts it seems to be in use early 1600s an a measurement but I am unsure if it is the same size as later uses. So 3-4 "faalth" of "läroffth" can be either 3-4 layers up to over between 25 and 35 square meters made from anything from sail canvas to the thinnest you can make plain weave cloth, it is probably linen though. The transliterations I find with a title has it called: "Göra strfdz vaakn" something like "make a battle coat of arms". "vaakn" seems to mean arms as in a coat of arms acording to old dictionaries and such. But might mean military outfit or gear in general or even just wapon based on other thing written around the same time about soldier while marching have their "wäryor" (weapon, sometimes specifically sidearms) and "vaakn" to hand if they need them. and how to punish boatsmen using "vaakn" or "wäryor" against the skipper.
If youre into digging deep into sources on this theme, Id suggest you grab Eddie Cheshire's Phd thesis from 2010. He made quite extensive shooting trials with rawhide combined with varying hardfacing layers (hard particles in a hide glue matrix similar to what you have between the leather layers here). Im expecting you to obtain similar results.
I think i may dismiss the glued linen theory (and the ancient greek one has been proven mistranslated). What i think black gambeson may be, as it's also mentioned in the "king's mirror", is a layered garment, where the outermost layer(s) are of toughened fabric impregnated with something of that nature, be it pitch or glue. I think there's also a parallel to be made in the construction with gambesons that are mentioned (and indeed a surviving piece) covered in a layer of skin on the outside. The fragment of that armour is from Ireland, where gambeson was relied upon as solid and stand alone protection. [It also may be the clue to the emergence of the buff armour in the 16th c(?)]
Ive tanned leather all my life using various methods.Ive heard of poop tanning but me thinks after a soaking rain it reminds you and as anyone near what hole you got the mix from. Good luck.
Gambeson covers quite a bit of ground under different names almost meaning the same thing. Even though they went under different names at different times, Haketon, Wambais, Pourpoint and Gambeson, There were only two types one to be worn under plate armour (expensive) and one to be worn by infantrymen (archers) (cheap). The Gambeson of 31 layers of linen and one of canvas, usually deer skin, was for wearing under armour. The padded, sometimes to width of four fingers, of the archers were tubes of linen sewn together that had been stuffed with cotton waste, cedral, buckram and tow. Cedral and buckram remain a mystery but tow was the off cuts from hemp rope or okram sometimes tarred. The under armour gambeson that you are holding would not have been visible so being coded black red or blue does not seem likely. The black gamberson may have something to do with the stuffing ingredients which leeched out when wet and were a superior filling we will never know until we decipher cedral and buckam
In the text "Conservation of Leather and Related Materials": Kite & Thomson: Routldge (2006) pp94-96: postillon boots used heated colophony pine resin, bees wax, and p98 details pitch being used on the raw flesh side. Apparently the "pitching technique" used for carriage boots was accurately duplicated from: De Garsault (1767) "Art du Cordonnier" in Arts du Coir (1984) Geneva, Slatkine. Page 97 describes the molecular changes leather undergoes- some heat application methods post boiling allow for rigid formation, others allow semi-rigid. But the fact it must be vegetable-tanned especially oak-tanned is very important. As for tanning- the video by The Woodland Escape: How to Tan Hides: A Tutorial | PIONEER LIFE CIRCA 1700's states deer hide is first soaked in an alkaline solution (wood ash), then de-haired and de fleshed- the alkaline loosening the hair, then rinsed, then put in an acidic solution to tan (animal feces (Native Americans used deer poop) but apparently early settlers used vinegar and vinegar was produced in huge quantities by early settlers- thus it must have been a very important product- and one would imagine a time not so removed from the Renaissance- as important and widely produced during the Middle Ages- especially as people were very frugal and didn't let things go to waste like a bad wine, ale or beer.
I've only just started following your channel recently. You know at first I was confused as to who the second Tod was that you were introducing: Tod from Tod's Workshop AND Tod Cutler. I've since found both websites 😂
If you ever have the time, can you please test modern maille (the one used for botcher's gloves and aprons)? I've always wondered how it would fare against historic weapons.
i was thinking about the last video and with the ground glass from the last video, i wonder.... perhaps they refering to sand? like sanding the wood of the shield maybe? idk just a thought 🤔
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Doublet of Defense sounds like a D&D magic item
I'm wondering if the 'doublet' part of a shield covering isn't the same thing we do when we add a 'jacket' to a bullet, or 'coat' a wall with something.
No it's a Harry potter book.
@@benholroyd5221Harry Potter and the Doublet of Defense. 😂
I think Lonely wolf may have it. Imagine this was first written down and the word coat/cote was used as in 'coating', an applied layer. A later generation reads 'cote' and thinks jacket (modern English) and writes down the next copy using the more modern (to them doublet). IOr something like that
There's a spell in Ars Magica called "Doublet of Impenetrable Silk"
The mixture of oak tannins with hide glue should also make the glue water-resistant when it dries up because such glue won't rehydrate as easily as pure hide glue. The tannins react with the collagen in the glue and they cross-link it so it becomes insoluble.
Is that so? Curious
Just like iron gall ink is waterproof. This is an unexpected crossover.
@@greghenrikson952 Iron gall ink oxidizes after being laid down on the parchment or paper. But if it reacts to the hide immediately that would add early water resistance.
Ok, I'm going to have to play around with that and do some testing. I have lots of hide glue, acorn shells, oak bark, oak galls, and an oak based tanning solution I made that currently has my first attempt at home tanned leather soaking in it. If it can make the hide glue more water resistant that will be awesome for the flint knapped blades and projectile points I make.
Not directly related, but useful to know .... the addition of glycerine acts as a plasticiser for hide glue, which can be extremely brittle when fully dried. Also works with PVA glues. [I use it building concertina bellows]
brilliant, loving the experiments with tannins, glues etc. It all makes logical sense, and all fairly available in the technology of the time.
This is such an exciting series Tod! Thanks so much for taking us the whole way through the process. I have been inspired by you to always try and show my methodology whenever I am doing things like testing swords in my videos and I think that everyone is the better for the transparency in this type of experimental archeology.
Thanks and it is an interesting aspect. Of course things could be faked, but if you are honest and transparent people can see what is going on and and when I inevitably make mistakes people can pull me up on it publicly because they can show where the mistakes are and then we can all just keep on thinking, talking and learning. I try to show as much as I can with out being boring (or at least I try)
@@tods_workshop no no, it’s brilliant. I always say, I do things with all the scientific validity of a lad who spent the afternoon drinking rootbeer and watching mythbusters, but the process is as important as the results, especially for theses niche areas of study where I hope others will follow and use/improve on techniques featured. Keep it up dude.
I was always a Middle Ages-obsessed kid, and had I found your channel back then I would have learned to speak English 10 years earlier! Absolutely love your videos!
In Czech there are many archaic words for gambesons - mainly "prošívanice" (something padded), "krzno" (coat) and "smolenice" (something with resin/tar).
Thanks Eadwin, That is very interesting indeed. Really appreciate it
Man, I'd love to have a conversation with this man. Total history geek (huge compliment), who leaves no stone unturned.
It's always amazing to see what a craftsman good at his craft can do in crafting when he puts himself into improving his craft, always, all the time.
Crafty.
@@benholroyd5221 Beat me to it!
if the black gambeson idea expressed here worked, it would have potential for a mold based relatively mass production style. Layer up a bunch of linen scraps of various length, impregnate with the glue concoction, and press between a mold. Once the mold is made it would be much faster and require less expertise than custom tailoring (assuming it actually works well).
Interesting. I would assume they would have made that leap and yet I have not seen anything like that, which perhaps gives the inverse in that it is a good indicator they didn't do this. Hmmmmm
@@tods_workshop While a linen shirt is somewhat forgiving, and perhaps even a gambeson, once it is made hard by the glue I would think tailoring would become important to be practical. Try putting on a plastic injection moulded mass produced armour and see how much you feel like fighting in it (thinking just of the mass produced fit, not the protection / weight). Of course this is less of a concern with a shield, but then the wooden shield itself is the mould.
Getting the mold to not stick to the pressed piece is another challenge. Taking a clue from similar modern processes, a proper wax coating on a near polished surface. Or use facing layers impervious to the glue.
No good vacuum pump in the medieval period for vacuum bagging. But piling sand should produce a similar effect of distributed pressure.
What I've seen of modern ballistic armor, adhesion between fabric layers makes a difference.
I'm not an expert on it by any means, but I thought I heard that linothorax did have to be custom-made to the person. One might could wear one belonging to someone else of similar build, like a son wearing one that had once been his father's, but you're not going to be able to mass-produce them in advance.
@@antaguana to me the main question would be how hard it gets. I made a linothorax a few years ago, and as it warmed up to your body it kind of (in a limited way) molded itself to your shape as you wore it. The glue softened and weakened a bit in the areas regularly subjected to flexing, kind of like new leather getting worn in.
I'm not saying I think it was done, no evidence for it, just curious to think of it could have worked.
Another material used in composite armour for eons was horse hoof. Made soft. like plastic, by heating it can be cut, shaped, thached and such, becoming strong again when cooled.
Or horn! Cow horn utensils were a common thing, far as I understand!
Black Gambeson ! Yay !! Earlier than 15th century, the King's Mirror (Norway 13th century) recommends to wear "thoroughly blackened" gambeson underneath and on top of the mail armour!
I suspect there are a number of separate chemical processes going on here.
Iron and vinegar together form ferric and ferrous acetates, which further react with tannic acid to form iron-tannin complexes which change the colour of the wood, or in this instance leather. I do not know whether these tannin complexes include Ferric Tannate,
Iron oxides definitely react with tannic acid to form ferric tannate. This compound is a solid, stable, black substance which resists further oxidation on an iron substrate, and can be used to fix rust, particularly useful in converting and fixing rust in present in pitting and micro cracking. It does not exhibit the exfoliation tendencies of red rust and is not hygroscopic. The tannate is however, a relatively porous material and freely soaks up thin oils for maximum rust protection. I have used this for years in conserving old iron tools.
I think it quite possible that any tannates formed within the fibres of the leather, might well soak up [and perhaps bond with?] the hide glue in a similar way thus contributing to overall material strength.
If my guess about the ferric tannate involvement is correct, in the method you are using, by far the greatest proportion of the iron would be coming from the iron filings stipulated in the recipe, rather than the small amount added in the vinegar/iron mix you added. It may well be that powdered rust might be a better bet than Iron filings, indeed in historical times, such filings may well have contained a high proportion of rust. Given that the leather and glue is a wet gloopy mess, any clean filings might convert to rust [and hence tannates], during the long drying period
If memory serves, The optimal conditions for the formation of tannates from rust and tannic acid occur at a pH of between 2 and 3. The amount of vinegar added to your large vat is unlikely to have much effect on the overall pH of the glue. Again the low pH [acidity] required is likely to come from the tannic acid leaching out from within the leather, since hide glues are fairly neutral, perhaps with a tendency to slightly acidic.
Be interesting to try some small test pieces to examine the 'sandwich' union between the two pieces of leather, made with glass/filings and glass/rust. Maybe test pH ?
I imagine other folks here could give better insights on possible reactions as my studies in chemistry are over half a century out of date.
Keep up the good work Todd .... OG
Love that you wrote the chemistry and use out. I have used vinegar to clean off rust and such nonesense off of iron, and frankly prefer using it over ferric chloride and such things when etching patternwelded steel, but it never occurred to me to add the tannins! Cheers, and thank you! :)
I turned on my living room lights and ceiling fan. When Todd said everything I did everything. (too literal?) I hope that helps. LOL
Appreciate the detailed explanations Tod. This type of experimental archaeology is absolutely fascinating. Also, your thoroughness and methodology is very impressive.
Thanks - its all pointless if I am not thorough and you lot don't come along for the journey. What I really dislike about TV docs is they have two facts and immediately move on to a 'therefore'...... I do try to avoid that
This is not experimental archaeology. As far as I know no archaologists are involved and Tod is not even going by his own source let alone others. It's an experiment, it's interesting, but it has little relevance when it comes to sciences.
@@caranorn Your university accreditations aren't a prerequisite for doing science. You yourself called them experiments, which is what science does. He is using known sources and attempting to reproduce the outcomes they describe with materials known to be available to them in that time period. This IS experimental archaeology. He could write a paper on this and submit it to a scientific journal and it could get accepted to further our understanding of the past.
@@petervitale4431 The main problem is that he is not following those sources. He named one last time and just as he had named it he already said which parts he would not follow. The same for the suggested Spanish recipe which he has said in this video he would simply ignore. Lastly we have a dozen and more extant shields from the period that have been analysed and published which publications should be taken into consideration for any testing. And no, if Tod were to write up his process and findings on this shield, as it stands now, this would not be accepted in a scientific publication as it lacks scientific foundation.
@@petervitale4431 But he is not using the sources. He claims to be using one, then he does something different than given in that source. He has also been given at least one more recipe and I have pointed to the dozen or more surviving shields and their analysis (Nickel, Kohlmorggen etc.). And your öast sentence is the crux, Tod could write a paper on his experiment and a scientific journal 'could' accept and publish it. Only that without following the scientific process that is highly unlikely.
I really struggle to express how much I appreciate being able to watch things like this, its all just so interesting.
John Major (1512), who wrote that the common people among the highlanders rush into battle having for body armour a linen tunic manifoldly sewn and painted or daubed with pitch, and covered with deerskin. Bishop John Lesly, around 1578, is more precise, saying the Scots Highlanders wear a coat of mail "over a leather jerkin, stout and of handsome appearance, which we call an acton."
Some do suspect that the pitch and leather was more for waterproofing or keeping their mail dry instead of adding protection.
Interesting stuff once again Tod! Making hide glue in an iron pot is a bit dubious choice here, though. Manufacturers of hide glue are quite explicit in mentioning that they should not be in contact with metallic parts as they will oxidize the glue and reduce their strength.
I love that little stab about black leather.
Thanks Todd.
looking forward to the testing. black gambeson sounds like a mystery that needs to be solved :)
didn't realise there were viking societies, didn't think they'd not know how to blacken leather given it's the same process for ebonising wood... and was known about 2K years before the 'vikings'... and would've been easily accomplished given they used peat bogs for iron, and peat (the ph of the substrate) + iron = iron tannate. So the water from the area they collected peat would've stained their clothes, skin, and leathers...
also (while completely outside the geographical scope, but within the time period), you could make a square of period aztec armour, they used salt brine rather than glue to infuse, their version of a gambeson, fabric with salt crystals to the same effect.
My understanding is that the black leather ban is a holdover from the early days when the groups were changing from pageantry with minimal research to actually making an effort with the kit. It was put in place to stop 'bikings' in biking leathers.
The reenactment group I'm with does not ban it provided it's actually ebonised like Todd did, or an otherwise natural black - but it is generally kept to a minimum.
Obviously chrome tanned, or analine dyed black leather is hard banned
Good to know the blanket ban is slowly lifting. Also thanks for introducing me to the word 'bikings'
Seems to me that Viking societies should limit the amount of leather in general, since it wasn't often worn by the Norse...
@@MinSredMash Shoes, belts, knife sheaths, scabbard outers - it was used a fair amount based off the archaeology.
I don't know of much evidence of leather being used as clothing (like the '(b/v)ikings' you see in the media), but it was almost certainly not uncommon for specific uses.
@@Oddthetall Yes I meant in terms of clothing. I don't really see how black leather for belts/shoes/sheaths etc could pose much of a problem for authenticity.
i demand more experiments like this. well, not like this, but with actual testing. exciting stuff, but such a tease.
Can you try a layer of sinew? "Schilde des Spätmittelalters und der Frühen Neuzeit" Has a lot of information about shield construction. Including an original example of a hard layer like the one discussed in this video.
Also to note is that glycerin is a plasticizer for hide glue, so if the chap boiling up the hide glue happened to include some extra bits of cartiledge or sinew in his glue pot, the result would be noticeably less brittle than a pure hide glue.
I see no reason why cartilage or sinew would provide glycerine in appreciable quantities. You can't just cook it out of fat, but it's a byproduct of soap production
@@MarcRitzMD Indeed, they'd need to add soda ash or similar
Tod glad you made this because until now I had not seen the first video for this project, and they (both) are very interesting. Thanks!
Now i'm 1000% interested in this next film! for obvious research purposes (is lying through his teeth, as he is writing an RPG system where one of the materials of armour is hardened cloth)
Well thanks for teaching me what the tanning process required back in the days of old! I love knowing small tid bits like that!
I wonder if the "Black Gambeson" was actually something similar to oilskin canvas?
They had the technology, at least in the 1500s they did, since they were using oilskin canvas for sails by then, and oilskin coats made today are notoriously tough, so I imagine multiplying that by 30 would only be that much tougher, and relatively waterproof to boot.
The process doesn;t turn the fabric jet black, but it does discolor it and make it darker for sure.
Thanks for the updates and clarifications.
I like how you are in tune with your audience, getting feedback and such.
Just a thought on hide vs casein glues.
Both glues go back millennia and would have been in fairly common usage and made using easily available materials. Hide glue , however, softens with the application of heat particularly so, when a bit on the damp side. Casein glue does not seem to be much affected by either heat or water. Perhaps the composite material formed with leather, hide glue and glass/iron gave better 'arrow resistance 'in northern countries, which might have been somewhat negated in warmer Mediterranean climates, where the much more heat stable casein glues could have offered a distinct edge ?
Blacken it in the usual way is the first thing i thought of when i saw that
The British museum have a celtic shield made from bark that could be interesting to make and test.
th-cam.com/video/wMK0mAATSnU/w-d-xo.html iron age bark shield
I had a leather pouch got wet and had my mail gloves left on it for a, few hours. Left blue grey spots all over it. They went black yes but over the years developed into holes so watch that process. It's like very slow acid.
Yes, that is why dying leather that way, without a thorough rinsing, is a risky approach.
In a similar vein, I have often heard it said that oak was not favoured for tool handles as the tannin accelerates corrosion of the Iron - I've not really found this to be much of a problem, but oak handles will blacken fast near areas of contact, especially when damp.
Got to make you wonder how they came across the mix of dog turds and oak tannin being the magic solution of tanning leather.
undigested leather in dog shit found on saw dust perhaps.
There are a vast number of ways to turn raw hides into leather. For instance brain tanning being one I know has a long recorded history - every animal comes with its own tanning kit, supposedly always enough brain in a creature to tan its own hide!
But who knows which one(s) were discovered first, and why other methods become used - though these people are far from stupid, if they get lucky and see a useful result they will figure out how to replicate it, and then see similarity between other materials. And if a material is really easy to source, or does the job faster/better then it will be no surprise that something common and otherwise waste gets used.
Leather tanning is very old it was done before any pure chemical compounds and even the alchemy was a thing. If everything you have are animal and plant parts and juices you use them. In not so distant past manure was used in buildings, dried as fuel for cooking and urine for washing/cleaning. Soaking things in water and stuff to make things more pliable is still very common for woodworking and basketry.
I would say the chance is quite high that someone will soak something with tannin bound by hide straps in dirty water.... And then it will be just refinement which plants and which turds (and other stuff) work best.
@@ladislavseps4801 My guess is its a bit of both, but the rest is something of travel and meeting people with new ideas. Being you're a Tanner, your chances of meeting people outside your occupation who aren't chucking up their guts is pretty slim. However, if you hear that a city over the hills is using tannin and you're using turds or brains then you might decide to give it a go. Finding that it actually works you might also decide to try using two of those things together in the back of your very smelly shed and coming up with something 'new' that hasn't been done before.
By accident or some truly random trial and error, across thousands of years.
well, i tried the ebonizer solution added with the rabbit skin glue.
It sure colored the leather, well and fast !
But it don't seem harder than the process without the ebonizer recipe.
It still can be modeled and the blade resistance is the same : i can draw with my fingernail, so...
Still a fun experiment to do !
I think there is more than one bath : jelly, skin glue, ending with bee wax... Someone told me about salted solution, but i have doubts
ps : maybe collophane ?
I'm pretty sure we never found an entire recipe in the old books. Such a knowledge is precious, soooo precious...
pps : on turnshoes they use pine goudron and fine earth... instead of skin glue and fine iron... In medieval times glass is so rare... and so precious ! in can't imagine a carolingian recipe using this
If you think you had a tough day, remember you could be a piece of gambison inside Tod's workshop.
The 13th Century Norwegian book "King's Mirror" also mentions blackened gambeson. Some translators have translated it as tarred, some just as black, some as a blackened jacket. I am guessing there is disagreement there, too.
I really appreciate the deep consideration! Yo're really driving forward at least my understanding of historical arms & armor! 🙂
It seems like you're making a variation of iron gall ink, which mixes copperas/rusty water with tannic acid from oak galls. I'm the "scribe" in our living history group up here and I make this all the time for the public.
looking forward to the next step in this experiment as always
Very interesting experiment. I will be looking forward to seeing the results of your testing.
Might be late to the party but I've always been impressed by how neat your intro/logo bit is.
Nice to see the spark-damaged T-shirt. Shows evidence of plenty of grinding.
For anyone like myself who has been trying this method of black dye without success, the trick seems to be to wet the leather first. If I mix iron filings and vinegar and apply it to dry leather, I get a very nice grey, but it is decidedly not black. If wet the leather first, however, I get a very nice black. It isn't the same as modern chemical blacks, but a little oil or wax should make it close enough to not matter (though, I don't think it would be able to match USMC Black).
I'm really excited to see if putting a bunch of sand a iron filings between the layers, actually does anything. I could see it possibly creating more friction for the arrowhead.
Yesss, it's most interesting. Part III please 😁
5:40 I think something similar about black gambesons is also mentioned in a 13th century norwegian source on how should a the king personal retinue arm themselves
I love this investigation into middle ages composite armor
I love these work-in-progress vids. Really do a good job highlighting your thought process
"Mum! Dad's doing something weird to the BBQ again!"
They are so past the 'dads doing something weird' stage
This is awesome, and yeah I turned everything on, and if I don't open youtube in a while and come back with 10+ notification, your video is always the first I click!
It's interesting to watch a skilled craftsman go through the process of creation and iteration, especially when there's a consideration of "how would they have done it?".
And of course the vinegar is acidic and will degrade the leather unless you neutralize it. Iron and vinegar solutions were used a lot in the American Civil War to stain cloth and leather. I have done experiments myself with it. It is a good dye, but it bleeds a lot.
Yup, the linothorax (literally "linen chest") was, in fact, layers of linen impregnated with glue!
It all comes back to balance. No one defence is perfect against all attacks. There are pros and cons with pretty much everything.
Oh, the glue thin already has a modern counterpart with canvas and titebons three and shellack. A Scadian figures that so he could make dirt cheep rigid armor
Another fantastic video, thank you for your work.
French troops are recorded as wearing blackened linen gaiters as late as the 1780s. This would suggest that blackened linen is some type of water proofing.
Love your work Tod.
Thank you very much for this wonderful content
One day we'll be able to afford to buy Tod a new t-shirt.
Yeah, its getting a little scruffy. However, if he is like me, he'll put the new one in a drawer, and continue wearing the old one. After all, it's just a work shirt, so a few holes aren't important.
Old shirts are the best shirts. I love his ethic of squeezing every ounce of use out of every material and tool he has.
I love this channel, thank you for your work.
I still think you should be investigating the Zulu process for leather shields.
Cannot wait for the next episode ❤
This reminded me that FandabiDozi recently did a video looking at targes and testing their bullet resistance. Not the most scientific but definitely interesting and well worth a look.
I usually HATE it when people say "I'll come back to that later..."
Firstly, because as Tod found out, sometimes they just forget to come back to it. And it's not like we're going to remind them, because by that point, we've forgotten about it, too!
Secondly, because if they DO remember to come back to it, the information that they then present is shorn of context and thus urgency. In other words, by the time they 'come back to it,' we no longer care about that information. We're no longer invested in finding out what more they had to say about this thing that is no longer prominent in our thoughts.
Imagine if the first Lord of the Rings movie ended as soon as Aragorn came upon Boromir, finding him with arrows stuck in his chest...
And that's it. There's no death scene, no farewells, no funeral, nothing. We don't know if he died or not! When the second movie starts, all we see is that Boromir isn't with them. We forget about it and we hear nothing more about it until, in the third movie, Pipin describes to Denethor what happened to Boromir (giving us the 'before' scene) and Frodo has Faramir explain about the funeral boat (giving us the 'after' scene) allowing us to piece together the final fate of Boromir. Only it does so such a long time after the event itself, that Boromir's death is shorn of any emotions that it would otherwise have elicited. We no longer care how he died, or why. Admittedly, there are- sometimes- good reasons for talking or for telling stories in this way (in the "I'll come back to that later," kind of way) but it's frequently over-used.
Ah, another informative video. *is ready to take notes*
I can remember reading a book, many years ago, where they had recipes to make leather more resilient / harder. Cooking the leather and treating it with honey, boiling the leather and hammering it was also mentioned. Could there be processes which have been lost to history that could affect the leather even more than the treatments we know of ? It is a fascinating subject as could the natural leather back then be different from what we recognise as normal leather now, due to breeding etc.
Actually boiling leather? Not something I can see would have much success....the French "cuir boille(?)" (Not 100% sure of the spelling there) has a lot to answer for....maybe?
always fascinating stuff tod
Very interesting! I had never heard of these at all. I did wonder about the history of the mayoral chains though.
My arming dublet is coated in bees wax to make it more resistance too stapping/piercing , but I have only done some small tests it seems to work, but I need to do some more.
For reasons unbeknownst to me I find that hide glue stiffened natural cordage is very brittle in the end. As in it breaks quite easy, where the cord would have been impossible to break by hand before. I suspect the hide glue is not the way to go for natural cordage and you need to use something more plastic, like waxy pitch or birch bark tar.
But I cannot wait to see what the sandpaper composite does.
I just got to the part where you dipped the leather into the vinigaroon. That's what that stain is called. It was used to stain wood too. With maple the rust gives it a red hue and the vinegar gives a brown hue, but that is best with the harder parts of the wood turn red and the softer (the curl or figure) turns a darker brown. Basically its an acid stain like Aquefortis (nitric acid30%-water70& and iron filings). Try the vinigaroon on ash or oak or walnut.
Yes! Been waiting for this one!
I wonder what advantage ground glass has/might have over sand. Sure seems like it would be easier to send little Johnny down to the river bank than to smash and grind a manufactured material.
I'm curious about that, as well.
No shooting today?
Tod be like „I have altered the test, pray I don’t alter it any further“
tod really is what happens when you max out the science tree in syd meyers civilization
Great video, can’t wait for the next one.
I've read that the Aztecs would soak their cloth armour in salty brine and then when it dries the salt crystals would somehow reenforce the armour. similar concept and probably fairly easy to reproduce and test.
Salts are used by the leathermaking industry to bulk and thicken the material. It does not seems to enhance the mechanical properties much (on some aspects,to the contrary) but you definitely can easily thicken leather with brine.
@@saloneju I believe that the aztecs used cotton in their armour so obviously that would be different to leather but it is interesting that leather can be thickened with salt as well. I'm just interested in seeing the aztec salt concept tested
@@saloneju I wonder if the bulking effect is because salt added to the leather is hygroscopic and would draw in moisture ? If this is so, I think it would make the leather a bit softer rather than harder
@bigoldgrizzly Good question. Ive thought the explanation to be that when the salt recrystallizes, it grows in volume and thickens the leather as a result. Theres definitely a component of that also present,but never thought about how this might affect the moisture content of the leather. Ive made some hardness measurements on different forms of hardened and non-hardened leather,and brine-soaked leather may indeed be somewhat softer than completely untreated one.
Forgot to show a similar closeup of the leather sample going black :)
quite curious to see how it behaves. in principle it is nearly identical to modern ballistic armor, which uses a layer of hard ceramic and a backing of aramid fibers held together with a hard rubber coating. the purpose of the ceramic is to break, bleeding off the energy of the bullet impact allowing the aramid to catch and stop it.
the glass and iron filings would serve a similar function to the ceramic, while the glued leather functions as the rubber binder, and the wood beneath the aramid.
i also wonder if the specific mention of a brass mortar was more important than it might appear. brass being relatively soft might allow for the glass to only be ground so fine. and if the glass is functioning similar to ceramic in modern armor, then you wouldnt want powder, but instead small chunks that can take an impact and then crack and break thus bleeding off energy.
Your merch cuts are getting better :)
Great video as always Todd, love your work!
Best channel on TH-cam.
Thanks
edit: adding something of a translation to the old Swedish? I think it is old Swedish.
edit the second: spellcheck
There is as far as i know only one actual reference to glued cloth armour. It is from Scandinavia in the 15th century and it involves fish glue and mastic
Copied from Johan S Moens post from myarmoury thread "tarred linnen gambeson ":Tak fiska lim giorth aff maghommen, viij lod, mastic ii lod, oc blanda wäl samman Sidhan lima thär mädh sammam tre äller fira faalth läroffth, oc apthera pa nokre formo som fäller segh äffther likamsens skapnath, oc tha thet är törkath bither ey järn pa thet harniskith
My attempt at a translation: Take 8 weights of fishglue from "maghommen"(idk), 2 weights of mastic and mix well. then use it to glue three or four pieces of lärft (I think planeweave linen is what it means today but i am uncertain what it meant back then) attach to a form (idk but I think that om "fäller segh äffther likamsens skapnath" part means "that is made i the shape of a body") and when it is dried iron cannot bite into this breastplate
Thanks and I will go and search that thread out.
@@tods_workshop So, taking another look at the text it is uncertain how much textile they think you should use,"faalth" i am guessing is either (fåll ,fald) fold or (fält) field can also mean an unbroken piece. "läroffth" (modern lärft) could mean sail and sail canvas or any plain weave but was at some points in itself also a unit of measurement from being sold in standard 1 aln by 15 lengths, though I am unsure when this starts it seems to be in use early 1600s an a measurement but I am unsure if it is the same size as later uses.
So 3-4 "faalth" of "läroffth" can be either 3-4 layers up to over between 25 and 35 square meters made from anything from sail canvas to the thinnest you can make plain weave cloth, it is probably linen though.
The transliterations I find with a title has it called: "Göra strfdz vaakn" something like "make a battle coat of arms". "vaakn" seems to mean arms as in a coat of arms acording to old dictionaries and such. But might mean military outfit or gear in general or even just wapon based on other thing written around the same time about soldier while marching have their "wäryor" (weapon, sometimes specifically sidearms) and "vaakn" to hand if they need them. and how to punish boatsmen using "vaakn" or "wäryor" against the skipper.
If youre into digging deep into sources on this theme, Id suggest you grab Eddie Cheshire's Phd thesis from 2010. He made quite extensive shooting trials with rawhide combined with varying hardfacing layers (hard particles in a hide glue matrix similar to what you have between the leather layers here). Im expecting you to obtain similar results.
I think i may dismiss the glued linen theory (and the ancient greek one has been proven mistranslated). What i think black gambeson may be, as it's also mentioned in the "king's mirror", is a layered garment, where the outermost layer(s) are of toughened fabric impregnated with something of that nature, be it pitch or glue. I think there's also a parallel to be made in the construction with gambesons that are mentioned (and indeed a surviving piece) covered in a layer of skin on the outside. The fragment of that armour is from Ireland, where gambeson was relied upon as solid and stand alone protection.
[It also may be the clue to the emergence of the buff armour in the 16th c(?)]
Ive tanned leather all my life using various methods.Ive heard of poop tanning but me thinks after a soaking rain it reminds you and as anyone near what hole you got the mix from. Good luck.
Gambeson covers quite a bit of ground under different names almost meaning the same thing. Even though they went under different names at different times, Haketon, Wambais, Pourpoint and Gambeson, There were only two types one to be worn under plate armour (expensive) and one to be worn by infantrymen (archers) (cheap).
The Gambeson of 31 layers of linen and one of canvas, usually deer skin, was for wearing under armour. The padded, sometimes to width of four fingers, of the archers were tubes of linen sewn together that had been stuffed with cotton waste, cedral, buckram and tow. Cedral and buckram remain a mystery but tow was the off cuts from hemp rope or okram sometimes tarred. The under armour gambeson that you are holding would not have been visible so being coded black red or blue does not seem likely.
The black gamberson may have something to do with the stuffing ingredients which leeched out when wet and were a superior filling we will never know until we decipher cedral and buckam
The level of history being explored is college phd level
In the text "Conservation of Leather and Related Materials": Kite & Thomson: Routldge (2006) pp94-96: postillon boots used heated colophony pine resin, bees wax, and p98 details pitch being used on the raw flesh side. Apparently the "pitching technique" used for carriage boots was accurately duplicated from: De Garsault (1767) "Art du Cordonnier" in Arts du Coir (1984) Geneva, Slatkine.
Page 97 describes the molecular changes leather undergoes- some heat application methods post boiling allow for rigid formation, others allow semi-rigid. But the fact it must be vegetable-tanned especially oak-tanned is very important.
As for tanning- the video by The Woodland Escape: How to Tan Hides: A Tutorial | PIONEER LIFE CIRCA 1700's states deer hide is first soaked in an alkaline solution (wood ash), then de-haired and de fleshed- the alkaline loosening the hair, then rinsed, then put in an acidic solution to tan (animal feces (Native Americans used deer poop) but apparently early settlers used vinegar and vinegar was produced in huge quantities by early settlers- thus it must have been a very important product- and one would imagine a time not so removed from the Renaissance- as important and widely produced during the Middle Ages- especially as people were very frugal and didn't let things go to waste like a bad wine, ale or beer.
Never heard of the dog excrement way before. Stale urine and oak bark was the way I heard they tanned leather.
6:00 -- It is really sounds like linothorax-like armour in Medieval times.
Great content. Keep it up. Do you think maybe they covered the shield and then put the whole thing into the glue perhaps?
great video as always
I've only just started following your channel recently. You know at first I was confused as to who the second Tod was that you were introducing: Tod from Tod's Workshop AND Tod Cutler. I've since found both websites 😂
Can't wait!
Do we need to test gambeson soaked in pitch against fire arrows? 😬
If you ever have the time, can you please test modern maille (the one used for botcher's gloves and aprons)? I've always wondered how it would fare against historic weapons.
i was thinking about the last video and with the ground glass from the last video, i wonder.... perhaps they refering to sand? like sanding the wood of the shield maybe? idk just a thought 🤔