I find it funny, you're in the middle of a delicate conversation and you just whip out a "meeting people" magazine like "oh yeah I'm listening" *licks thumb to turn page* "ah yes, go to sleep dog... peaceful sleep"
The skill boost conversation had me rolling. What's funny to me is that it's three different skill checks, but failing any one of them has the same bad result, so they could have made it a single 85 check.
The different options have different results. The 85 speech check is to fuse their personalities together. The 75 check is to allow one to kill the other (whichever you have favored in dialogue up to this point) Or just doing the 50 speech check at the beginning to make him remove his collar, resulting in his death.
Game gave you hint to use it though. Having an option to use it mid-conversation would be convenient but immersion breaking. They shouldn't exist in first place
@@netiturtle I always thought of the magazines as mechanically similar to how some people "cram" for a test in the real world. Both are basically learning the information temporarily. Sure you might remember it long enough to pass the test, but you didn't actually learn the material, so you won't retain it. Temporary stat boost. Lol
I absolutely love how much chat loses there collective mind at his build. It’s the funniest shit to me. And I know it’s hilarious to Josh too. Huge fallout fan here. Guys. Just let em enjoy his first playthrough. Don’t know if I could do it Josh. You are a hell of a lad for it 😂😂
Remember the iPhone model that dropped reception when you put your finger on the corner, and Apple fans would tell you “just don’t put your finger there”. This reminded me of that.
I get their point in that it's an RPG where you simply aren't/can't make every check (especially with this build) and that you "should" live with your consequences. HOWEVER if you're going to put consumable stat boosts in your game and not give the options to either use them when needed or a forewarning on an upcoming check, you've basically created a situation where most players will either never use the magazines at all or will just save scum/use a guide to find out what the check is.
@1:53:57 i think the fundamental thing is whether you're building a game or a role playing experience. Maybe the people making FNV intended for a player to have the RP experience so they made the speech checks visible with fail state options, and the player could choose to say the WRONG thing and fail the check, or to succeed if they had spec'd into the right stats. The use of the skill books remains an option - so i think Josh is right it should be something that could be used mid-conversation. Perhaps though, the real "mistake" that Obsidian made was in not training the player to use the temp boosts before anything that seems like an important conversation. In the scenario in the video, Josh runs up to a mutant who is about to blow up a gas-filled room in an attempt to talk him down, and he does so without first thinking "hmmm... i am about to rely heavily on my ability to talk this mutant out of something, so i should fortify my speech ability". Thats the game design failure, i think. The player has gone through the game being frustrated that they can't open safes and hack computers, so they have been actively trained that they should be putting skill points into those things early and often, lest they end the game with a list of places to re-visit just to open a single safe or hack a single computer. They have been going through the game being trained that their decisions have effects, but in speech its just treated as the desired state that the speech skill will effect dialogue negatively or positively, and not enough training was given to recognising when pivotable conversations were going to happen, and temp items should be used if they want to get the best outcome. But overall, they probably developed the game as a role play experience aimed at wanting the player to accept their failures and the consequences of them, hence the option to say a dislogue piece that would fail. They didn't aim for save-scum behaviour they aimed for players starting over once they had completed the game, but with different stats and builds to see how the game ended differently. This was also actually a comment in the chat - it was the fashion in 2010 game design to aim for replayability.
The conversation mentions the pathfinder game for this kind of save-scum system, which from what I experienced, they only allow the specific option when you already passed the check for them, instead of this leading to replayabiliy, it just leads to me just finish the game and never knowing about it, especially if I don't really have a desire to replay it in the first place The way that you can use the temporary boost item for check in bg3 is perfect for this
Overall well thought out. I think its always important to remember that FNV is a single player RPG though, and one's enjoyment and interaction with the systems is subjective. You can argue theory about what "most" people would enjoy, or how you "should" play the game, but at the end of the day the most important thing is the player having an enjoyable experience. If he wanted, he could god-mode and noclip through the entire game. Most would say this would ruin the game (I would agree, I obviously think that would be robbing oneself of the experience), however an individual's enjoyment is only ever determined by themselves - it can never be arbitrated by other people, as much as we think we may know what's best for other's experiences. Immersion is fake. It is a lie. It is a state we tell ourselves to be in so that we can enjoy the game. One person's criteria for it being broken may differ from another's. If I wanted to be pedantic, I could argue that the most immersive thing to do after character death is to ALT-F4 and uninstall New Vegas (I understand that some people enjoy permadeath runs, and that is valid, but my point is most people would not enjoy playing in this way). If you die after an important skill failure and reload before said failure because you forgot to save and have the ability to pass the check the second time around - do you now pretend that you wouldn't have known? I suppose that answer would be yes, and I can see that perspective. I think this concept often gets conflated with more general concepts of "good game design" or "developer intentions", and causes miscommunication that often results in the vitriolic debates that we can see on the internet. People are often arguing several different things simultaneously without realizing it.
Game systems discussion at 01:37:30. I'd add that the Kings Quest games by Sierra were/are loved by many, but they had some quirky systems (most likely because they were among the first adventure games and not a lot was figured out). They kept a lot of the bad systems for a long time though, from Kings Quest 1 to Kings Quest 5 you kind of had to have multiple saves because you could lock yourself out of being able to complete the game due to bad choices you won't realise until many hours later. This frustrated the Lucas Arts devs, so Maniac Mansion and Monkey Island addressed those systems (Monkey Island even pokes a little fun at Sierra at one spot about this). But they still respected each other as game devs.
insane how many people with no idea trying to give him advice for the vault part, you can easily sneak away with every gold if you take the long way out
someone in chat nailed it, they were saying that stopping to use your item to pass a check breaks all of the tension from the scenario. some scenarios give you multiple options to get your desired outcome, including backing out and taking an aid item. usually though that leads you to the same outcome without the xp gain, or you're simply choosing the path to reward A or reward B. the choices you make in dlc are very important. you can replay it after gaining knowledge to achieve which outcome you want, or exactly as you did, quick load and try again. I don't think its bad design, more-so it was designed by someone who had different opinions on skill books possibly (who want the story to be impactful and memorable). you could have very well not had a meeting people book at all, then the same opportunity to replay the dlc would be about having high speech or you would spend it searching every bathroom for a speech book. you aren't just being punished for not knowing your speech had to be high, you had multiple paths to achieve the requirement as well. his position on the matter is just as valid as mine and its okay to share it. I quite liked the rant!
i think the fundamental thing is whether you're building a game or a role playing experience. Maybe the people making FNV intended for a player to have the RP experience so they made the speech checks visible with fail state options, and the player could choose to say the WRONG thing and fail the check, or to succeed if they had spec'd into the right stats. The use of the skill books remains an option - so i think Josh is right it should be something that could be used mid-conversation. Perhaps though, the real "mistake" that Obsidian made was in not training the player to use the temp boosts before anything that seems like an important conversation. In the scenario in the video, Josh runs up to a mutant who is about to blow up a gas-filled room in an attempt to talk him down, and he does so without first thinking "hmmm... i am about to rely heavily on my ability to talk this mutant out of something, so i should fortify my speech ability". Thats the game design failure, i think. The player has gone through the game being frustrated that they can't open safes and hack computers, so they have been actively trained that they should be putting skill points into those things early and often, lest they end the game with a list of places to re-visit just to open a single safe or hack a single computer. They have been going through the game being trained that their decisions have effects, but in speech its just treated as the desired state that the speech skill will effect dialogue negatively or positively, and not enough training was given to recognising when pivotable conversations were going to happen, and temp items should be used if they want to get the best outcome. But overall, they probably developed the game as a role play experience aimed at wanting the player to accept their failures and the consequences of them, hence the option to say a dislogue piece that would fail. They didn't aim for save-scum behaviour they aimed for players starting over once they had completed the game, but with different stats and builds to see how the game ended differently. This was also actually a comment in the chat - it was the fashion in 2010 game design to aim for replayability.
The boosts are not exclusively useful for conversations, though. They're also needed to repair stuff, hack, lockpick and many other non-dialogue actions. I think it's fine for the game to have "high stakes" moments in which you don't get to quit the convo, chug a million drugs, read 10 novels and wear the goofy outfit and then go back to the dialogue check. That's not "bad design" just because the game taught you how the dialogue works most of the times and every now and then throws you a curveball and makes you deal with an urgent situation the best way your current build/stats let you. But you can always savescum I guess.
I just saw the convo with Christine and in that case yeah there should probably be a way to go out of the dialogue. But I think there's a meaningful distinction between the more urgent situation with Dog/God and the more relaxed one with Christine.
He's literally decided that flawlessly passing max level speech checks is critical for his character but refused to invest points in speech to do exactly that, and complained that the backup system the game has in place is suboptimal. I don't know what bee he had up his butt when this episode was recorded but it's an absolutely atrocious take. This is literally just the consequences of his actions.
if you see christine dialogue on geck it looks so unpolished. let alone exit dialogue and re-engage, the go back choice is tad confusing. This is one of the aspect many fans of NV disapointed about other than gameplay requires trackback multiple times. Other than that it is indeed a great storytelling and DlC of Fallout.
@@Kolyarut He's saying A LOT of players WILL savescum/metagame to get a result they want, for RP reasons or other motivation. This will happen, so there's no point simply making it slightly more time-consuming to do so. The temporary speech boost items would be quite useless if it's your first time playing, and you had no option to back out. The option to pop it right then and there would simply be a feel good mechanic and a bit of streamlining for these players who would feel they just made it. Personally, I just sell magazines as soon as I can, but that's the point of an RPG, RPing how you want. The skill books/magazines etc. didn't just appear out of thin air, they were placed in the world and considered for consequences and balance.
The other mags could also be used in "high stakes" moments, though. There are locked doors, terminals and containers with high skill checks that reward players with special, unique loot for speccing a certain way, that you otherwise miss. There are quests where you have to have a high repair/med skill to complete them in alternate ways. The proposed change for the speech mags would simply put them in line with how every other mag can be used, you see the check, and pop it if you want to.
So just as a note, in Fallout 4 when a skill check in a convo comes up or you realize you are wearing non 'riz outfit when selling, you can physically turn away from the person you are talking to, use boosters and change clothes and turn right back, still in convo. Don't know if it is explained or tutorialized in the game itself Not sure if that works in FO3/NV.
especially the 9 int check that requires exactly that lvl 9 or the math wrath perk, which itself requires you to know what skills to put points into for getting the perk
it was the first time EVER that I skipped ahead in one of his LP's. His logic became circular and I feel like he should have looked for another angle instead of just holding the audience hostage and repeating himself
RE: Speech boosting The only conversations you can't back out of to use the item are conversations where you only get one chance. Dog and God arguing where Dog is willing to blow himself up if he thinks God will take control again. You don't get to tell him "hold on for a minute, I just need to read this magazine and change clothes so I can convince you to listen to God more"; that's not going to have Dog wait for you, he's just gonna blow up the room instead. Most conversations aren't like that you're talking to rational enough person that they'll delay action until you come back, but dealing with Dog is almost always a one try thing because of Dog's personality. It's very thematic to the conversation, and personally I'd rather story wise you stuck with the outcome you got for it. Dog dying so God could live. it's not the best end for the characters, but you did prefer God to Dog and the story makes sense.
3:12:36 watching Josh fail to learn the thematic lesson of the story in real time is kinda surreal ngl. The story is about learning to let go josh...its about letting go josh...its ok, let it go josh...LET IT GO JOSH
You are talking to a Nightkin (known for their poor mental health) and he is already arguing with himself, and you are upset that you can't back out of the conversation and read a book... Just messing around. I do agree, albeit only to a degree. I would argue that it's properly used in this situation. Base game, most people aren't actively arguing with themselves about ending it all. There are base game times where you can't go back and read a book (Legate Lanius is an easy one of the top of my head) They make sense. If someone is literally about to bash your skull in, they aren't going to let you stop and read a book to change their mind. You just weren't prepared. If you were thinking through this very carefully, you would probably think "Hm. This seems to be a very tricky situation. I might need to be able to talk him out of this state he's in. Let's see if I have anything that boosts my speech." However, in other less serious instances, like training the Outcasts at Camp Golf, you can read a book and return to train them.
I trapped Elijah on my first time through Dead Money without even knowing it was a thing. I usually do sneaky builds on my first plays of games like this, so I was just running on instinct. Didn't trust him after all he'd done, either. It was the single most satisfying thing to come out of that expansion for me.
Watching Josh struggle with the ending of dead money was almost as frustrating as playing it myself... As amazing as the writing, characters and atmosphere of this dlc is, the gameplay is such a clusterfuck at times
That is the inherent problem with the speech magazine, You dont know you need them until its too late. The other magazines have checks that have use outside of dialouge.
What if whenever you use a skill magazine, gives you "eurika" token that can offer highlighted options in the conversation for that skill. the boost indicating that the player's previous review of the skill lead to this organic boost in the conversation? does that make sense? Basically, you just read the magazine ahead of the time for a temp, one time bonus and books are permanent
"You can rush past them" *stands still on top of the beams* I THOUGHT YOU COULD RUSH PAST THEM. Am I the only one that doesnt like being trapped in here for like 12 hours when the whole game is about exploring an open world?
They pulled the reverse bikini armor on you: Pick up a sexy dress that turns into a boring suit when you actually wear it. That's some gamer gate metoo stuff right there.
i don't know if this will be ever seen, but in the dog and god skill point, lets say debate, I think I'm gonna lean with the dev on this one. The game told you had to deal with dog in anyway possible. I think if you go talk to him right away you the player must think your option before engaging, using chems or magazine, if you don't well its the player fault. With good stealth you can close all the valve then talk to him where the conversation change. If you can kill him quickly with melee you can pass this completely.
I get what he’s saying but he’s still just wrong somehow. I can’t take his side mainly because of the absolute bullshit “build” he created. I’m not mad about it but can’t co-sign it
Hey so, I brought back my house and she said "who is that" and I drunkenly said " that is Russ T Milk" and she went "oh fallout fair"so you are my guy.
This is one of my all-time favorite games, BUT the Sierra Madre DLC is so hard for me to love. I was missing The Adventures of The Milkman and The Dud™️ every time I heard a beep 😅
Archaic design aside. God forbid we accept consequences of not having our checks succeed. While I get your point joshy. Vegas wasn't entirely built around being able to 100 everything all the time. You could have just failed and lived with the consequences. Grew as a character and all that❤
Imo, failing because I simply do not have the skill level for a check, no matter what I wear or use, is fine. If my build simply wont allow it, I can live with it. Where I have a problem is when I do have the means to pass a check but I can't use them until after the check has occurred. In that instance, its a reload 100% of the time for me
I couldn't care less about Fallout, but I greatly value and esteem your battle against lewd interpretations and salacious misinterpretations of your words. Fight the good fight, brother!!!
F:NV is my favorite fallout game (I've played them all except brotherhood and tactics), you're 50% right Josh the skill magazine system specifically how it interacts with speech is potentially one of the failings of the game. It can break tension and immersion, if you abuse it. Loading and redoing the entire conversation over after reading a magazine. I don't understand why some of the chatters use this as an excuse to shit on the game though, or on the other end of the spectrum, shove their heads in the sand and pretend there is nothing wrong. It's ok to like a game and dislike something about the game. Anyway, love this playthrough Josh you're a perfectly whelming person to watch
If you ignore the fact that the game has been telling you higher stakes require higher skills, if you paint yourself into a corner you invented because the only thing you'd lose is exp if you fail a check, if you are ignorant of the fact you've specialised in nothing, if you fail to learn preparation or aren't invested in the stakes or getting the message of leaving things behind then you'd be half right. This is a clear example of square peg round holes, you can't force something to be better or what you desire from sheer opinion, you want something you now know is a choice BECAUSE this exists and BG3 implemented something similar to this brain fart of a layman reaction. It's bad because it doesn't do SPECIFICALLY what I want when I want it. If you do this to yourself and the only actual consequence is you don't get what you want that's not bad that's consequence. The consequence is playing this game more to make different choices different consequences within the structure of art that actually fucking exists rather than a fantasy.
@@jasonpowley4913 Why are you so hostile buddy? From what I can tell you like the system because it forces you to live with your decision making. I agree that is a positive thing in theory, but in practice you don't have to live with your decision making because you can just reload and suck down mentats and skill magazines. I don't even agree with Josh's fix of letting people use skill magazines in dialogue is the solution. Just because I don't have the solution however, doesn't mean there is no problem. I feel the system in place encourages people to min/max, lookup guides, and restart dialogues after downing mentats and skill magazines. This interrupts the flow of playing and highlights the game's artificiality. I'm not "mad" because I didn't get what I wanted, you're just assuming things about me. This is opinion, Josh was also sharing his opinion you can disagree without insulting me or condescending.
@@snocades Reading guides is the opposite of what was intended, there weren't any. It doesn't FORCE or even want you to reload, the option is there as is tradition. You played, learned, and if you enjoy the world you go back, try something different and hopefully get as much out of it as possible. It's personal conditioning that requires a winning state at all times in all things, if only the world was moulded to the desire of individuals it'd be as chaotic as the jack of all trades master of none build. I'm not hostile just disappointed. This is a user problem not a design flaw, though absent having a mechanic you don't actually need and the creators DIDNT include, There is no point trying to justify a outlandish statement with mental gymnastics that don't stand up to any real scrutiny.
@@snocades You gotta atleast meet a game where it lives, you must atleast meet it halfway. It's kinda the thing he says he does for a job, or atleast should understand atleast.
@@jasonpowley4913 You know what, you're right. The problem is player side, if the mechanics feed into the problem then it's the player's fault for abusing that. Even though the creators are certainly responsible for taking as much player agency into account as they can, they cannot reasonably prepare for every playstyle/abuse(especially considering the tiny amount of time they had to polish). If it were me I'd have removed all skill magazines, or reworked them into something like the True Police Stories, purely mechanical and not role playing centric. Thank you for not calling me a brain-farting layman again, I appreciate you
It's always funny watching people argue and defend something they have too much of an emotional investment in. I swear, you'd think Josh was accusing a couple chatters specifically of having bad design with how vigorously they defended an excellent but still jank video game
2:25:37 Josh is getting real sweaty XD OMG I hated this whole DLC. I can def see how people think its good but I just hated it XD It is good, from a perspective of someone's not playing the game, don't get me wrong
Josh you absolutely must play Old World Blues before you put down New Vegas.. The writing is write up your alley- very raunchy and silly- you'd love it :)
Now let's imagine you're watching a content creator that gets on an extended tangent about temporary boosts and the ability to use them in the middle of combat and you get stuck in a dialogue loop about temporary boosts, but you can't exit the dialogue loop because you can't use a temporary boost item to boost the timestamp past the tangent and to the rest of the gameplay. Couldn't be me, I just watch the replays. I have all the temporary timestamp boosts I could ever want.
2:05:48 I know it's been answered by the time I type this, even as I've paused the video to respond. The thing you are referring to is a mobius strip. -and no sooner do I un-pause than the answer is revealed.
Many people, (both in YT comments I've read and Twitch chat) is focusing way too much on the "but ur build sucks xd" thing, we ought to ignore that for now. It's basically irrelevant to his argument even if he doesn't explicitly say it. We can change the variables while retaining all of his arguments about temporary stat boosts. Suppose I am playing a 100% optimized character at level 8, set aside that there really is no "100% optimized" general build, we can suppose it exists for the sake of the hypothetical. No matter how optimized this character is in their skills, it is impossible for a level 8 character to be able to be good at everything, we must be selective in our specializations no matter how optimized. I have 15 Barter since I opted to prioritize Speech (since it is generally better), but before me is a Barter 25 check that I did not foresee, but I have a magazine to boost it by 10. The argument is that one shouldn't need to know about this Barter check beforehand to be able to use the magazine. They ought to be able to see the check, then decide to use their temporary stat boosts to overcome the check, or save it for another time. As it stands now, you either simply have to reload (immersion breaking), or take the L but feel frustrated the game didn't let you overcome a check you had the means to do so (unsatisfying). This kind of circumstance is likely to arise even if we suppose an optimized build. JSH running a shit build or not is irrelevant to his argument. I make no judgement as to the credibility of this argument, but it is admittedly frustrating seeing it get misrepresented because "dude ur just salty bro cuz ur build sucks bro". If the argument really is so stupid, then tackle it head-on. Personally, I kind of like having to use my awareness of the situation to decide if I need to use a temporary boost, and making them usable mid-dialogue would remove that satisfaction. On the other hand, sometimes it is frustrating that I know I have the means to solve a problem the game is simply not letting me, especially in dialogues where I was not the person to initiate it.
As mentioned in dozens of other comments, the game makes a blatant distinction between talking Chet into giving you Leather Armor and talking a desperate Super Mutant out of killing you and himself. There are many dialogues in which the player is allowed to take a step back and boost their speech up without reloading the save but there are also several point-of-no-return scenarios where you either pay attention to the context clues the game leaves you. Mr Streamer spent half of this VOD complaining about how "the player should be informed about when to use a boost item" and... he literally was. He was aware of Dog/God's mental state, he was informed of the dire and highly dangerous situation they're both in and DESPITE making his mind up to trying to talk to Dog/God, Mr Streamer decided to not use any speech boosting items preemptively. It's a classic case of a video game requiring attention and a streamer being upset about not getting results despite not paying of the attention beforehand.
@@va5780 I don't really disagree with any of this, I just felt like the argument made by the streamer was being critcized for the wrong reasons. The last paragraph of my comment was about how it feels really good when you read the room and know to use a temporary skill boost, and how I think it would suck that being able to use boosts mid dialogue removes that. Your criticism is good, but "your build sucks bro" is not. I was specifically addressing the latter, not the former.
@@va5780 THANK YOU for bringing up context clues here - he spends half the time reading chat (understandable, he's a streamer, he needs to keep things moving for the sake of his audience) and not paying attention to whats going on around him. If there was *ever* a situation that screamed "please read a skill book if you want to make sure you get a good outcome for this conversation" its the one where a mentally ill super mutant is having a mental health crisis and openly talking about sui////cide
Imagine me, I was not turning off any of the beeps or any of the Holograms. I was not finding anything else than the bear claw-fist and the throwing spears eighter. Now I questioning if I had the power of some unholy being doing this.. I left without touching any of the gold just GTFO ASAP
josh: wow i wish i could use my boost book right now instead of having to fail the conversation and reload a save and wait for the loading screen and then redo the conversation. chat: I HATE YOU FOR THAT. it's a matter of convenience idk why that's so hard for people to understand.
Is Josh incapable of failing a skill check and continuing with the outcome? or even just choosing a different option knowing that he will fail? maybe Fallout: New Vegas should have had only one save file per character (akin to dragon's dogma 1 & 2) to stop meta gaming.
I love how people can think that they know what the devolpers were thinking while making a game At the same time the magazine stuff feels like it was included but since they only had 18 months to work on it, I'm more inclined to believe they didn't have time to even think about using the magazines when needed, I have no clue what they were thinking but I'm on Josh's side Why include a system if players are going to ignore it or not use it due to save scumming so i think it's an oversight due to lack of polish time
Is amazing that some people cannot accept criticism to their favorite game...and for morons that are saying " you should level correctly" you mean correctly for all situations? cause he if maxed out another stat then the speech issue would be the same... that is why the game has a item that give 20 speech......
People forget these games are role playing games and not everyone enjoys smashing a min max build every time, everything josh said was correct I don't understand the push back he was getting.
Josh, please keep in mind when you find bad design in this particular Fallout game, as I understand it, Bethesda only gave Obsidian 18 months make and complete this game. Despite Bethesda’s poor treatment of Obsidian, and the unfortunate bugs it had to be released with, it is still regarded by most as the best Fallout game. I’m not sure if the DLCs are included in that 18 mos. Absolutely play how you want, i think that’s the point of games, last I checked. I’m still trying to figure out some of the choices you’ve made, but you’re playing how you wish to, and that’s all that matters. You are missing quite a bit of content though. 😅
Spoiler alert! 1:30:22 to 2:02:30 Josh complains about RPG life sim elements in an RPG with life sim elements after not building a meaningful and intentional character the whole playthrough. Live demonstration at 2:00:00. Oof what a baby.
Dead money has lots of replayability, if you make a mistake with skill checks, you messed up, it doesn't make sense for a deranged MPD lunatic like Dog/God or a schizo like Elijah, to wait for you to stop your conversation, and read a book for your little skill check, take the consequence or reload the save, reloading the autosave took like 5 seconds yet the complaints lasted for like 20 minutes. Imagine having the encounter with dog, on the brink of burning himself and everyone around him, and just having the ability to say "Goodbye" And he says "Ok" it would break any sort of immersion with the scenario, if you just take 5 seconds to reload the autosave, which you did anyway to continue complaining, the whole scenario would be reset, and also allow you to increase your skills, it may be a good idea to allow for the character to read a whole magazine mid-conversation, because you didn't want to level up your stats properly, you may not like the consequences of your build, but being able to have a cop-out at any time seems kind of cheap in my opinion
Ye magazines really aren't meant for critical convo checks. I don't think the base game lets you do it with every check either. I think that doesn't invalidate his point enterily. It's still a bit jank but not sure it's a solved problem. Reloading a save tends to be the solution in games where this pops up.
@@Todesnuss The DLCs for NV allow you to still achieve the favorable outcome even if you can't pass the skill checks, all you miss out on is the extra experience points.
Let's ease up on the pontificating. Make your point and move on. You will either convince them or not, but you certainly will irritate by-standers with the extended badgering.
Josh...... lvl cap is 50. Your chat is %100 right. You don't need to give us a 20min explanation to explain with overdone descriptions that basically sums up "this is how I want to play" just say that, bc both new and old fallout players know that you shouldn't lvl 1 point in every skill. Actually that's just basic rpg knowledge. You committed to the meme build many levels ago. You cant be defensive of your playstyle or its difficulties when you were warned long long loooooooong beforehand.
@@the_brudders Yeah, the rant still was pretty over extended over a non-issue that he faced because of his meme build as if it was a surprise, which sucked major balls. Some steam is justified as long as civility is present.
When he does it regarding bugs and physics, it's entirely valid, since it's basically built on fallout 3. One could even argue it's valid all the time, since Bethesda gave Obsidian a notoriously short dev time
@@hakanbrakankrakan he claimed that Bethesda owned the Johnny Mercer song (Bing Crosby singing it) "Something's Gotta Give" because he thought it was written just for the game.
yeah I think Josh is just straight up wrong - he should just accept that sometimes you get a bad outcome and you know what? that's better writing than just letting the player have whatever they want. Sometimes Its better to tell the player "no" - of course you don't always know going into a conversation if its eminently important, just like real life. The Ambiguity adds an interesting form of texture, tension, and friction, because if the player is just guaranteed to just get the best outcome every time, why even include other outcomes or make the boost items limited? In the specific case of Dog/God, however, you are given an entire area that you have to rifle through while he's having a mental health crisis and openly talking about committing sui////cide - you'd think that'd be a substantial clue that *you should use a skill book if you want a good outcome to this conversation* lol. As for savescumming - too bad. this is an issue in every rpg that doesn't decide to keep a single save file. its definitely a tradeoff between narrative permanence and player convenience, but you chose to savescum, if you feel bad about it, don't savescum!
Given the length they had to develop NV I believe the magazines was meant to add more depth but didn't have enough time to properly developed. It's poorly done no doubt
Today will go down as the 78/85 incident
Ah yes the globe Incident..
Overhyped, would not recommend.
I find it funny, you're in the middle of a delicate conversation and you just whip out a "meeting people" magazine like "oh yeah I'm listening" *licks thumb to turn page* "ah yes, go to sleep dog... peaceful sleep"
Emergent humor in games is great though, like turning the tide of battle by slamming 15 cheese wheels and 3 different hard drugs
The skill boost conversation had me rolling. What's funny to me is that it's three different skill checks, but failing any one of them has the same bad result, so they could have made it a single 85 check.
The different options have different results.
The 85 speech check is to fuse their personalities together.
The 75 check is to allow one to kill the other (whichever you have favored in dialogue up to this point)
Or just doing the 50 speech check at the beginning to make him remove his collar, resulting in his death.
@@MDRHokage oh. Fair's fair then.
Game gave you hint to use it though.
Having an option to use it mid-conversation would be convenient but immersion breaking. They shouldn't exist in first place
@@netiturtle I always thought of the magazines as mechanically similar to how some people "cram" for a test in the real world.
Both are basically learning the information temporarily. Sure you might remember it long enough to pass the test, but you didn't actually learn the material, so you won't retain it.
Temporary stat boost. Lol
I absolutely love how much chat loses there collective mind at his build. It’s the funniest shit to me. And I know it’s hilarious to Josh too. Huge fallout fan here. Guys. Just let em enjoy his first playthrough. Don’t know if I could do it Josh. You are a hell of a lad for it 😂😂
The 78/85 incident was totally on chat lmao. Chat was fully at fault here.
Remember the iPhone model that dropped reception when you put your finger on the corner, and Apple fans would tell you “just don’t put your finger there”. This reminded me of that.
>Entire DLC is about learning to Let Go
>Josh doggedly argues a minor point for over an hour
I still get chills with the ending slides of this DLC. The Voice Actors are just so good.
1:37:06 I'm pretty sure they exists to be hoarded until after the final boss because you might need them later
Josh is 100% right when talking about game design in reloading and using temp items. The people disagreeing are on some other level.
I get their point in that it's an RPG where you simply aren't/can't make every check (especially with this build) and that you "should" live with your consequences.
HOWEVER if you're going to put consumable stat boosts in your game and not give the options to either use them when needed or a forewarning on an upcoming check, you've basically created a situation where most players will either never use the magazines at all or will just save scum/use a guide to find out what the check is.
Man do I love being able to temporarily boost past the conversations about temporary boosts
I recruit military recruiters for pick up games
Josh saying “he can’t see me” while his status actively says {DETECTED} every time is killing me
Also Josh not seeing the compass or the HP
@1:53:57 i think the fundamental thing is whether you're building a game or a role playing experience. Maybe the people making FNV intended for a player to have the RP experience so they made the speech checks visible with fail state options, and the player could choose to say the WRONG thing and fail the check, or to succeed if they had spec'd into the right stats. The use of the skill books remains an option - so i think Josh is right it should be something that could be used mid-conversation. Perhaps though, the real "mistake" that Obsidian made was in not training the player to use the temp boosts before anything that seems like an important conversation. In the scenario in the video, Josh runs up to a mutant who is about to blow up a gas-filled room in an attempt to talk him down, and he does so without first thinking "hmmm... i am about to rely heavily on my ability to talk this mutant out of something, so i should fortify my speech ability".
Thats the game design failure, i think. The player has gone through the game being frustrated that they can't open safes and hack computers, so they have been actively trained that they should be putting skill points into those things early and often, lest they end the game with a list of places to re-visit just to open a single safe or hack a single computer. They have been going through the game being trained that their decisions have effects, but in speech its just treated as the desired state that the speech skill will effect dialogue negatively or positively, and not enough training was given to recognising when pivotable conversations were going to happen, and temp items should be used if they want to get the best outcome.
But overall, they probably developed the game as a role play experience aimed at wanting the player to accept their failures and the consequences of them, hence the option to say a dislogue piece that would fail. They didn't aim for save-scum behaviour they aimed for players starting over once they had completed the game, but with different stats and builds to see how the game ended differently. This was also actually a comment in the chat - it was the fashion in 2010 game design to aim for replayability.
of all the perspectives on this issue I've read in youtube comments and twitch chat, this is the one I like most.
@@Mojo1800thank you
The conversation mentions the pathfinder game for this kind of save-scum system, which from what I experienced, they only allow the specific option when you already passed the check for them, instead of this leading to replayabiliy, it just leads to me just finish the game and never knowing about it, especially if I don't really have a desire to replay it in the first place
The way that you can use the temporary boost item for check in bg3 is perfect for this
Overall well thought out. I think its always important to remember that FNV is a single player RPG though, and one's enjoyment and interaction with the systems is subjective. You can argue theory about what "most" people would enjoy, or how you "should" play the game, but at the end of the day the most important thing is the player having an enjoyable experience. If he wanted, he could god-mode and noclip through the entire game. Most would say this would ruin the game (I would agree, I obviously think that would be robbing oneself of the experience), however an individual's enjoyment is only ever determined by themselves - it can never be arbitrated by other people, as much as we think we may know what's best for other's experiences. Immersion is fake. It is a lie. It is a state we tell ourselves to be in so that we can enjoy the game. One person's criteria for it being broken may differ from another's.
If I wanted to be pedantic, I could argue that the most immersive thing to do after character death is to ALT-F4 and uninstall New Vegas (I understand that some people enjoy permadeath runs, and that is valid, but my point is most people would not enjoy playing in this way). If you die after an important skill failure and reload before said failure because you forgot to save and have the ability to pass the check the second time around - do you now pretend that you wouldn't have known? I suppose that answer would be yes, and I can see that perspective.
I think this concept often gets conflated with more general concepts of "good game design" or "developer intentions", and causes miscommunication that often results in the vitriolic debates that we can see on the internet. People are often arguing several different things simultaneously without realizing it.
Well I for one thought this was another banger of an episode. Cant wait for part 7
Game systems discussion at 01:37:30. I'd add that the Kings Quest games by Sierra were/are loved by many, but they had some quirky systems (most likely because they were among the first adventure games and not a lot was figured out). They kept a lot of the bad systems for a long time though, from Kings Quest 1 to Kings Quest 5 you kind of had to have multiple saves because you could lock yourself out of being able to complete the game due to bad choices you won't realise until many hours later.
This frustrated the Lucas Arts devs, so Maniac Mansion and Monkey Island addressed those systems (Monkey Island even pokes a little fun at Sierra at one spot about this). But they still respected each other as game devs.
insane how many people with no idea trying to give him advice for the vault part, you can easily sneak away with every gold if you take the long way out
Josh the whole dlc is about letting go off things, that is why you cant get out of most conversations that affect the story of it
someone in chat nailed it, they were saying that stopping to use your item to pass a check breaks all of the tension from the scenario. some scenarios give you multiple options to get your desired outcome, including backing out and taking an aid item. usually though that leads you to the same outcome without the xp gain, or you're simply choosing the path to reward A or reward B. the choices you make in dlc are very important. you can replay it after gaining knowledge to achieve which outcome you want, or exactly as you did, quick load and try again. I don't think its bad design, more-so it was designed by someone who had different opinions on skill books possibly (who want the story to be impactful and memorable). you could have very well not had a meeting people book at all, then the same opportunity to replay the dlc would be about having high speech or you would spend it searching every bathroom for a speech book. you aren't just being punished for not knowing your speech had to be high, you had multiple paths to achieve the requirement as well. his position on the matter is just as valid as mine and its okay to share it. I quite liked the rant!
another chat take I agree with: the dlc is about letting go
i think the fundamental thing is whether you're building a game or a role playing experience. Maybe the people making FNV intended for a player to have the RP experience so they made the speech checks visible with fail state options, and the player could choose to say the WRONG thing and fail the check, or to succeed if they had spec'd into the right stats. The use of the skill books remains an option - so i think Josh is right it should be something that could be used mid-conversation. Perhaps though, the real "mistake" that Obsidian made was in not training the player to use the temp boosts before anything that seems like an important conversation. In the scenario in the video, Josh runs up to a mutant who is about to blow up a gas-filled room in an attempt to talk him down, and he does so without first thinking "hmmm... i am about to rely heavily on my ability to talk this mutant out of something, so i should fortify my speech ability".
Thats the game design failure, i think. The player has gone through the game being frustrated that they can't open safes and hack computers, so they have been actively trained that they should be putting skill points into those things early and often, lest they end the game with a list of places to re-visit just to open a single safe or hack a single computer. They have been going through the game being trained that their decisions have effects, but in speech its just treated as the desired state that the speech skill will effect dialogue negatively or positively, and not enough training was given to recognising when pivotable conversations were going to happen, and temp items should be used if they want to get the best outcome.
But overall, they probably developed the game as a role play experience aimed at wanting the player to accept their failures and the consequences of them, hence the option to say a dislogue piece that would fail. They didn't aim for save-scum behaviour they aimed for players starting over once they had completed the game, but with different stats and builds to see how the game ended differently. This was also actually a comment in the chat - it was the fashion in 2010 game design to aim for replayability.
also im pretty sure boosts mid conversation might be hardcoded to not work lol
This stream temporarily boosted my day today, thanks Josh 😁
Ah, the microphone buzz was so fitting with Sierra that I thought it was part of the ambience xD
Some people in chat losing their minds with Josh's build doesn't get old. So funny to watch every single time.
Damn there's some mean comments here, hope you are doing well josh, thanks for the videos and keep up the great work
This is the greatest VOD because of the dialogue stat boost debate, truly the most whelming 2nd monitor content.
The boosts are not exclusively useful for conversations, though. They're also needed to repair stuff, hack, lockpick and many other non-dialogue actions. I think it's fine for the game to have "high stakes" moments in which you don't get to quit the convo, chug a million drugs, read 10 novels and wear the goofy outfit and then go back to the dialogue check. That's not "bad design" just because the game taught you how the dialogue works most of the times and every now and then throws you a curveball and makes you deal with an urgent situation the best way your current build/stats let you.
But you can always savescum I guess.
I just saw the convo with Christine and in that case yeah there should probably be a way to go out of the dialogue. But I think there's a meaningful distinction between the more urgent situation with Dog/God and the more relaxed one with Christine.
He's literally decided that flawlessly passing max level speech checks is critical for his character but refused to invest points in speech to do exactly that, and complained that the backup system the game has in place is suboptimal. I don't know what bee he had up his butt when this episode was recorded but it's an absolutely atrocious take. This is literally just the consequences of his actions.
if you see christine dialogue on geck it looks so unpolished. let alone exit dialogue and re-engage, the go back choice is tad confusing. This is one of the aspect many fans of NV disapointed about other than gameplay requires trackback multiple times. Other than that it is indeed a great storytelling and DlC of Fallout.
@@Kolyarut He's saying A LOT of players WILL savescum/metagame to get a result they want, for RP reasons or other motivation. This will happen, so there's no point simply making it slightly more time-consuming to do so. The temporary speech boost items would be quite useless if it's your first time playing, and you had no option to back out. The option to pop it right then and there would simply be a feel good mechanic and a bit of streamlining for these players who would feel they just made it. Personally, I just sell magazines as soon as I can, but that's the point of an RPG, RPing how you want. The skill books/magazines etc. didn't just appear out of thin air, they were placed in the world and considered for consequences and balance.
The other mags could also be used in "high stakes" moments, though. There are locked doors, terminals and containers with high skill checks that reward players with special, unique loot for speccing a certain way, that you otherwise miss. There are quests where you have to have a high repair/med skill to complete them in alternate ways. The proposed change for the speech mags would simply put them in line with how every other mag can be used, you see the check, and pop it if you want to.
So just as a note, in Fallout 4 when a skill check in a convo comes up or you realize you are wearing non 'riz outfit when selling, you can physically turn away from the person you are talking to, use boosters and change clothes and turn right back, still in convo. Don't know if it is explained or tutorialized in the game itself
Not sure if that works in FO3/NV.
cannot wait for the same (cannot use items during dialogue) rant when he starts Old World Blues. lol
especially the 9 int check that requires exactly that lvl 9 or the math wrath perk, which itself requires you to know what skills to put points into for getting the perk
Old World Blues is my personal favorite. Such a blast. And so funny.
it was the first time EVER that I skipped ahead in one of his LP's. His logic became circular and I feel like he should have looked for another angle instead of just holding the audience hostage and repeating himself
old world blues always makes me quit, it doesnt feel engaging at all, probably worst dlc
I would finish watching this video, but I don't have enough skill points. If only I could pause the video, and use my temporary boosts.
RE: Speech boosting
The only conversations you can't back out of to use the item are conversations where you only get one chance.
Dog and God arguing where Dog is willing to blow himself up if he thinks God will take control again. You don't get to tell him "hold on for a minute, I just need to read this magazine and change clothes so I can convince you to listen to God more"; that's not going to have Dog wait for you, he's just gonna blow up the room instead.
Most conversations aren't like that you're talking to rational enough person that they'll delay action until you come back, but dealing with Dog is almost always a one try thing because of Dog's personality.
It's very thematic to the conversation, and personally I'd rather story wise you stuck with the outcome you got for it. Dog dying so God could live. it's not the best end for the characters, but you did prefer God to Dog and the story makes sense.
3:12:36 watching Josh fail to learn the thematic lesson of the story in real time is kinda surreal ngl. The story is about learning to let go josh...its about letting go josh...its ok, let it go josh...LET IT GO JOSH
You are talking to a Nightkin (known for their poor mental health) and he is already arguing with himself, and you are upset that you can't back out of the conversation and read a book...
Just messing around. I do agree, albeit only to a degree.
I would argue that it's properly used in this situation.
Base game, most people aren't actively arguing with themselves about ending it all.
There are base game times where you can't go back and read a book (Legate Lanius is an easy one of the top of my head)
They make sense.
If someone is literally about to bash your skull in, they aren't going to let you stop and read a book to change their mind.
You just weren't prepared. If you were thinking through this very carefully, you would probably think "Hm. This seems to be a very tricky situation. I might need to be able to talk him out of this state he's in. Let's see if I have anything that boosts my speech."
However, in other less serious instances, like training the Outcasts at Camp Golf, you can read a book and return to train them.
2:46:22 oh look, the consequences of your own actions after the game has repeatedly shown this pattern since you started the game.
I trapped Elijah on my first time through Dead Money without even knowing it was a thing. I usually do sneaky builds on my first plays of games like this, so I was just running on instinct. Didn't trust him after all he'd done, either. It was the single most satisfying thing to come out of that expansion for me.
Watching Josh struggle with the ending of dead money was almost as frustrating as playing it myself... As amazing as the writing, characters and atmosphere of this dlc is, the gameplay is such a clusterfuck at times
That is the inherent problem with the speech magazine, You dont know you need them until its too late. The other magazines have checks that have use outside of dialouge.
This stream has temporary boosted my mood :D
What if whenever you use a skill magazine, gives you "eurika" token that can offer highlighted options in the conversation for that skill. the boost indicating that the player's previous review of the skill lead to this organic boost in the conversation? does that make sense? Basically, you just read the magazine ahead of the time for a temp, one time bonus and books are permanent
i have barely finished the intro to mass effect. would love to play along side
I feel the same way. It's a 3 game commitment lol
If you think about it V.A.T.S. is just a temporary boost for aim
God: speaking nonsense that goes right over Josh's head
Josh: *_s l o w c o n f i d e n t n o d s_*
Josh uses the phrase "temporary boost" like a doctor about to give you bad brain surgery.
Hi Josh, I didn't quite understand your issue with the skill checks. Could you explain one more time?
"You can rush past them" *stands still on top of the beams* I THOUGHT YOU COULD RUSH PAST THEM. Am I the only one that doesnt like being trapped in here for like 12 hours when the whole game is about exploring an open world?
They pulled the reverse bikini armor on you: Pick up a sexy dress that turns into a boring suit when you actually wear it. That's some gamer gate metoo stuff right there.
i don't know if this will be ever seen, but in the dog and god skill point, lets say debate, I think I'm gonna lean with the dev on this one. The game told you had to deal with dog in anyway possible. I think if you go talk to him right away you the player must think your option before engaging, using chems or magazine, if you don't well its the player fault. With good stealth you can close all the valve then talk to him where the conversation change. If you can kill him quickly with melee you can pass this completely.
I get what he’s saying but he’s still just wrong somehow. I can’t take his side mainly because of the absolute bullshit “build” he created. I’m not mad about it but can’t co-sign it
Hey so, I brought back my house and she said "who is that" and I drunkenly said " that is Russ T Milk" and she went "oh fallout fair"so you are my guy.
I can't finish watching.... the horse is so dead it is a bloody pool on the floor without anything remaining to tell you it was a horse.
15:48 I found TB and Jesse Cox when they did a played Terraria together. RIP TB
1:30:20 started - 1:42:05 looped - 1:48:37 looped again - 1:50:18 finally ended = 21mintues😂 This is why it takes so many videos to finish one game🤦♂
Yup temporary boosts should be allowed to be used mid-convo, don't like it? it breaks your immersion? dont use the damn thing, simple.
Josh... Josh... Josh... You gotta activate the temporary boost
1:44:20 sounds like some of these guys need a speech magazine the way they're failing speech checks against Josh lol
My favorite episode of jsh plays Fallout new vegas was when he talked about skillchecks for a looooooooong time
I can't believe Christine was Kainé all along.
This is one of my all-time favorite games, BUT the Sierra Madre DLC is so hard for me to love. I was missing The Adventures of The Milkman and The Dud™️ every time I heard a beep 😅
Archaic design aside. God forbid we accept consequences of not having our checks succeed. While I get your point joshy. Vegas wasn't entirely built around being able to 100 everything all the time. You could have just failed and lived with the consequences. Grew as a character and all that❤
his point is that the consequences are contrived
Imo, failing because I simply do not have the skill level for a check, no matter what I wear or use, is fine. If my build simply wont allow it, I can live with it. Where I have a problem is when I do have the means to pass a check but I can't use them until after the check has occurred. In that instance, its a reload 100% of the time for me
My up thumb is but a temporary boost to the algorithm.
I rate this video 78 out of 85.
Saturdays at 7
Sundays at 4
That's the Twitch rhyme
Works on UK time
OMG the temp skill discussion was annoying
I couldn't care less about Fallout, but I greatly value and esteem your battle against lewd interpretations and salacious misinterpretations of your words. Fight the good fight, brother!!!
Load-bearing sock 🤣🤣🤣🤣
awww yeah another new vegas episode
Fuck yes, it's the snow globe episode!
Wooow that was fast.. this milk didnt sour.
Wait till he finds out you can pass ALL spellchecks with CHARISMA 1 : SPEECH 100. Makes no sense!
F:NV is my favorite fallout game (I've played them all except brotherhood and tactics), you're 50% right Josh the skill magazine system specifically how it interacts with speech is potentially one of the failings of the game. It can break tension and immersion, if you abuse it. Loading and redoing the entire conversation over after reading a magazine. I don't understand why some of the chatters use this as an excuse to shit on the game though, or on the other end of the spectrum, shove their heads in the sand and pretend there is nothing wrong. It's ok to like a game and dislike something about the game. Anyway, love this playthrough Josh you're a perfectly whelming person to watch
If you ignore the fact that the game has been telling you higher stakes require higher skills, if you paint yourself into a corner you invented because the only thing you'd lose is exp if you fail a check, if you are ignorant of the fact you've specialised in nothing, if you fail to learn preparation or aren't invested in the stakes or getting the message of leaving things behind then you'd be half right. This is a clear example of square peg round holes, you can't force something to be better or what you desire from sheer opinion, you want something you now know is a choice BECAUSE this exists and BG3 implemented something similar to this brain fart of a layman reaction. It's bad because it doesn't do SPECIFICALLY what I want when I want it. If you do this to yourself and the only actual consequence is you don't get what you want that's not bad that's consequence. The consequence is playing this game more to make different choices different consequences within the structure of art that actually fucking exists rather than a fantasy.
@@jasonpowley4913 Why are you so hostile buddy? From what I can tell you like the system because it forces you to live with your decision making. I agree that is a positive thing in theory, but in practice you don't have to live with your decision making because you can just reload and suck down mentats and skill magazines. I don't even agree with Josh's fix of letting people use skill magazines in dialogue is the solution. Just because I don't have the solution however, doesn't mean there is no problem. I feel the system in place encourages people to min/max, lookup guides, and restart dialogues after downing mentats and skill magazines. This interrupts the flow of playing and highlights the game's artificiality. I'm not "mad" because I didn't get what I wanted, you're just assuming things about me. This is opinion, Josh was also sharing his opinion you can disagree without insulting me or condescending.
@@snocades Reading guides is the opposite of what was intended, there weren't any. It doesn't FORCE or even want you to reload, the option is there as is tradition. You played, learned, and if you enjoy the world you go back, try something different and hopefully get as much out of it as possible. It's personal conditioning that requires a winning state at all times in all things, if only the world was moulded to the desire of individuals it'd be as chaotic as the jack of all trades master of none build. I'm not hostile just disappointed. This is a user problem not a design flaw, though absent having a mechanic you don't actually need and the creators DIDNT include, There is no point trying to justify a outlandish statement with mental gymnastics that don't stand up to any real scrutiny.
@@snocades You gotta atleast meet a game where it lives, you must atleast meet it halfway. It's kinda the thing he says he does for a job, or atleast should understand atleast.
@@jasonpowley4913 You know what, you're right. The problem is player side, if the mechanics feed into the problem then it's the player's fault for abusing that. Even though the creators are certainly responsible for taking as much player agency into account as they can, they cannot reasonably prepare for every playstyle/abuse(especially considering the tiny amount of time they had to polish). If it were me I'd have removed all skill magazines, or reworked them into something like the True Police Stories, purely mechanical and not role playing centric. Thank you for not calling me a brain-farting layman again, I appreciate you
It's always funny watching people argue and defend something they have too much of an emotional investment in. I swear, you'd think Josh was accusing a couple chatters specifically of having bad design with how vigorously they defended an excellent but still jank video game
Awesome, i just finished part 5.
Good timing!
What are you doing watching videos on TH-cam when you’re supposed to be heading to the Ukraine front lines???? Since you support em so damn much 🤷♂️
@@mistermysteryman107 Maybe you should head there, considering you are the only one *talking* about it.
2:25:37 Josh is getting real sweaty XD OMG I hated this whole DLC. I can def see how people think its good but I just hated it XD It is good, from a perspective of someone's not playing the game, don't get me wrong
Josh you absolutely must play Old World Blues before you put down New Vegas.. The writing is write up your alley- very raunchy and silly- you'd love it :)
Now let's imagine you're watching a content creator that gets on an extended tangent about temporary boosts and the ability to use them in the middle of combat and you get stuck in a dialogue loop about temporary boosts, but you can't exit the dialogue loop because you can't use a temporary boost item to boost the timestamp past the tangent and to the rest of the gameplay. Couldn't be me, I just watch the replays. I have all the temporary timestamp boosts I could ever want.
2:05:48 I know it's been answered by the time I type this, even as I've paused the video to respond. The thing you are referring to is a mobius strip.
-and no sooner do I un-pause than the answer is revealed.
Many people, (both in YT comments I've read and Twitch chat) is focusing way too much on the "but ur build sucks xd" thing, we ought to ignore that for now. It's basically irrelevant to his argument even if he doesn't explicitly say it. We can change the variables while retaining all of his arguments about temporary stat boosts.
Suppose I am playing a 100% optimized character at level 8, set aside that there really is no "100% optimized" general build, we can suppose it exists for the sake of the hypothetical. No matter how optimized this character is in their skills, it is impossible for a level 8 character to be able to be good at everything, we must be selective in our specializations no matter how optimized. I have 15 Barter since I opted to prioritize Speech (since it is generally better), but before me is a Barter 25 check that I did not foresee, but I have a magazine to boost it by 10. The argument is that one shouldn't need to know about this Barter check beforehand to be able to use the magazine. They ought to be able to see the check, then decide to use their temporary stat boosts to overcome the check, or save it for another time. As it stands now, you either simply have to reload (immersion breaking), or take the L but feel frustrated the game didn't let you overcome a check you had the means to do so (unsatisfying). This kind of circumstance is likely to arise even if we suppose an optimized build. JSH running a shit build or not is irrelevant to his argument.
I make no judgement as to the credibility of this argument, but it is admittedly frustrating seeing it get misrepresented because "dude ur just salty bro cuz ur build sucks bro". If the argument really is so stupid, then tackle it head-on. Personally, I kind of like having to use my awareness of the situation to decide if I need to use a temporary boost, and making them usable mid-dialogue would remove that satisfaction. On the other hand, sometimes it is frustrating that I know I have the means to solve a problem the game is simply not letting me, especially in dialogues where I was not the person to initiate it.
As mentioned in dozens of other comments, the game makes a blatant distinction between talking Chet into giving you Leather Armor and talking a desperate Super Mutant out of killing you and himself. There are many dialogues in which the player is allowed to take a step back and boost their speech up without reloading the save but there are also several point-of-no-return scenarios where you either pay attention to the context clues the game leaves you.
Mr Streamer spent half of this VOD complaining about how "the player should be informed about when to use a boost item" and... he literally was. He was aware of Dog/God's mental state, he was informed of the dire and highly dangerous situation they're both in and DESPITE making his mind up to trying to talk to Dog/God, Mr Streamer decided to not use any speech boosting items preemptively.
It's a classic case of a video game requiring attention and a streamer being upset about not getting results despite not paying of the attention beforehand.
@@va5780 I don't really disagree with any of this, I just felt like the argument made by the streamer was being critcized for the wrong reasons. The last paragraph of my comment was about how it feels really good when you read the room and know to use a temporary skill boost, and how I think it would suck that being able to use boosts mid dialogue removes that.
Your criticism is good, but "your build sucks bro" is not. I was specifically addressing the latter, not the former.
@@va5780 THANK YOU for bringing up context clues here - he spends half the time reading chat (understandable, he's a streamer, he needs to keep things moving for the sake of his audience) and not paying attention to whats going on around him. If there was *ever* a situation that screamed "please read a skill book if you want to make sure you get a good outcome for this conversation" its the one where a mentally ill super mutant is having a mental health crisis and openly talking about sui////cide
Imagine me, I was not turning off any of the beeps or any of the Holograms. I was not finding anything else than the bear claw-fist and the throwing spears eighter. Now I questioning if I had the power of some unholy being doing this.. I left without touching any of the gold just GTFO ASAP
josh: wow i wish i could use my boost book right now instead of having to fail the conversation and reload a save and wait for the loading screen and then redo the conversation.
chat: I HATE YOU FOR THAT.
it's a matter of convenience idk why that's so hard for people to understand.
Sometimes convenience is not needed.
@@pissbone you must hate using a remote control instead of getting up to change the tv channel then
@@neocores nope its better writing to accept that sometimes you cant get the best outcome and tell the player "lol no"
@@xdeser2949 its 'better writing' to not have a charger cable for your ps5 controller and just accept when it runs out and never play it then
Is Josh incapable of failing a skill check and continuing with the outcome? or even just choosing a different option knowing that he will fail?
maybe Fallout: New Vegas should have had only one save file per character (akin to dragon's dogma 1 & 2) to stop meta gaming.
Petty josh is quite frankly my favorite kind of josh
I love how people can think that they know what the devolpers were thinking while making a game
At the same time the magazine stuff feels like it was included but since they only had 18 months to work on it, I'm more inclined to believe they didn't have time to even think about using the magazines when needed, I have no clue what they were thinking but I'm on Josh's side
Why include a system if players are going to ignore it or not use it due to save scumming so i think it's an oversight due to lack of polish time
Is amazing that some people cannot accept criticism to their favorite game...and for morons that are saying " you should level correctly" you mean correctly for all situations? cause he if maxed out another stat then the speech issue would be the same... that is why the game has a item that give 20 speech......
Did a binary skill choice touch you in your secret place when you were a kid?
People forget these games are role playing games and not everyone enjoys smashing a min max build every time, everything josh said was correct I don't understand the push back he was getting.
People with too much emotional investment in the things they like, they view legitimate criticism as a) wrong and/or b) a personal attack
I have personally created many a load bearing sock in my time
You don’t need to dump gold to trap him! You do have to stay out of sight
Josh, please keep in mind when you find bad design in this particular Fallout game, as I understand it, Bethesda only gave Obsidian 18 months make and complete this game. Despite Bethesda’s poor treatment of Obsidian, and the unfortunate bugs it had to be released with, it is still regarded by most as the best Fallout game. I’m not sure if the DLCs are included in that 18 mos. Absolutely play how you want, i think that’s the point of games, last I checked. I’m still trying to figure out some of the choices you’ve made, but you’re playing how you wish to, and that’s all that matters. You are missing quite a bit of content though. 😅
Spoiler alert! 1:30:22 to 2:02:30 Josh complains about RPG life sim elements in an RPG with life sim elements after not building a meaningful and intentional character the whole playthrough. Live demonstration at 2:00:00. Oof what a baby.
Vizzzzza Nvm I love you but I thought you had dropped this weekends vods😢
Dead money has lots of replayability, if you make a mistake with skill checks, you messed up, it doesn't make sense for a deranged MPD lunatic like Dog/God or a schizo like Elijah, to wait for you to stop your conversation, and read a book for your little skill check, take the consequence or reload the save, reloading the autosave took like 5 seconds yet the complaints lasted for like 20 minutes. Imagine having the encounter with dog, on the brink of burning himself and everyone around him, and just having the ability to say "Goodbye" And he says "Ok" it would break any sort of immersion with the scenario, if you just take 5 seconds to reload the autosave, which you did anyway to continue complaining, the whole scenario would be reset, and also allow you to increase your skills, it may be a good idea to allow for the character to read a whole magazine mid-conversation, because you didn't want to level up your stats properly, you may not like the consequences of your build, but being able to have a cop-out at any time seems kind of cheap in my opinion
Ye magazines really aren't meant for critical convo checks. I don't think the base game lets you do it with every check either. I think that doesn't invalidate his point enterily. It's still a bit jank but not sure it's a solved problem. Reloading a save tends to be the solution in games where this pops up.
@@Todesnuss The DLCs for NV allow you to still achieve the favorable outcome even if you can't pass the skill checks, all you miss out on is the extra experience points.
Of course!! The solution is time travel
Let's ease up on the pontificating. Make your point and move on. You will either convince them or not, but you certainly will irritate by-standers with the extended badgering.
That’s the point lol
It's ridiculous seeing an adult act like this.
Josh's game design lecture was prime content. Especially the harder people double downed against him. Josh said "Hold my tea."
He already messed up his game beyond repair several times and it can't get worse can it? 0 time stamp
Funny that Josh had to browbeat some dent heads.
It was all fine and plain sailing until Josh had to criticise the game. The game which it’s most loyal fans are the embodiment of a twitter argument.
Josh...... lvl cap is 50. Your chat is %100 right. You don't need to give us a 20min explanation to explain with overdone descriptions that basically sums up "this is how I want to play" just say that, bc both new and old fallout players know that you shouldn't lvl 1 point in every skill. Actually that's just basic rpg knowledge. You committed to the meme build many levels ago. You cant be defensive of your playstyle or its difficulties when you were warned long long loooooooong beforehand.
Dude. Calm down. He's not being serious at all with it. This game is not so hard that you need to min-max it.
@@the_brudders yeah..... yeah you right
@@the_brudders Yeah, the rant still was pretty over extended over a non-issue that he faced because of his meme build as if it was a surprise, which sucked major balls. Some steam is justified as long as civility is present.
Yo wtf there was a pink hat in the thumbnail. This is false advertisement!!!
Not
I still hate that he calls this Bethesda when it is Obisidian
When he does it regarding bugs and physics, it's entirely valid, since it's basically built on fallout 3. One could even argue it's valid all the time, since Bethesda gave Obsidian a notoriously short dev time
@@hakanbrakankrakan he claimed that Bethesda owned the Johnny Mercer song (Bing Crosby singing it) "Something's Gotta Give" because he thought it was written just for the game.
yeah I think Josh is just straight up wrong - he should just accept that sometimes you get a bad outcome and you know what? that's better writing than just letting the player have whatever they want. Sometimes Its better to tell the player "no" - of course you don't always know going into a conversation if its eminently important, just like real life. The Ambiguity adds an interesting form of texture, tension, and friction, because if the player is just guaranteed to just get the best outcome every time, why even include other outcomes or make the boost items limited? In the specific case of Dog/God, however, you are given an entire area that you have to rifle through while he's having a mental health crisis and openly talking about committing sui////cide - you'd think that'd be a substantial clue that *you should use a skill book if you want a good outcome to this conversation* lol.
As for savescumming - too bad. this is an issue in every rpg that doesn't decide to keep a single save file. its definitely a tradeoff between narrative permanence and player convenience, but you chose to savescum, if you feel bad about it, don't savescum!
Yesssssssssssssssss
Wow. The skill check convo went on far too long and actually got boring. First time I've been tired of listening to Josh speak 😂
Rehashing an argument a dozen times is bad stream design
Given the length they had to develop NV I believe the magazines was meant to add more depth but didn't have enough time to properly developed. It's poorly done no doubt