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Yep, it's me again. I'm back. Great stream man. I had such a busy Tuesday that I was SHOCKED the moment I saw that the stream was midway done at the time. Also loved the fact that one 3rd of this stream is just you trying to test chocolate milk and having batshit OP runs at the same time. Now looking at this stream again, man we have come so far so strong. Anyway, here're my opinions (again, take it as a grain of salt) Tier placements (Bum friend, Tough love, 3 Dollar bill): Bum friend's change is fair. It's an item that feels mostly detrimental in the early game, sure. But the moment you enter the late game, this little fella starts spamming ITEMS every 5-6 rooms for me. Also, coins do fall off in late game as shops and arcades become absent after womb anyway (unless with crowns). So having to utilize these coins is a plus. 3 Dollar bill's change is unimportant to me. Only a few spots down and still above piercing shots is fine enough. Tough love is the one that really shakes some placements though. If you're putting tough love to the bottom of A-, The mulligan should also go down there behind Tough love. Mulligan spawns a fly which deals your damage once. So it technically does 2x your damage total (that's still good tho). And tough love has 10% chance to deal around 3x your damage and scales with luck while Mulligan ALWAYS has 16% chance to deal 2x your damage while not scaling with luck. So Tough love becomes the better item after 4 luck and onwards. And no, beelzebub is NOT making this higher than Tough love. Another problem I had with Tough love's replacement is that the A- tier actually doesn't have ANY comparable damage items in its lower half as well. It's and Mulligan's placements solely depend on if they're better than the B+ damage ups (Which was confirmed) and lump of coal. So you're basically left with 2 very strong DPS ups vs a LOT of non-combat utility items. Comparing it to some damage ups with luck is also something you may consider. Okay...breaths in and out* Time for agreements and disagreements: Mom's key: Agree. This is DEFINITELY better than Pyro really. But I don't know about items like 9 volt, habit, flight or later on Sharp plug. I guess rankings like these will later mostly boil on items in similiar role groups. Mom's eyeshadow: Agree. Iron bar: Agree. Midas' touch: Agree. Great utility and on hit effect. Humble bundle: Shold be next to Mom's key honestly. In fact, you should also look at items like Pyro and Skeleton key too for its placement. We are looking at its potential to create double pickups like mom's key here. And it's pickups, not chests and chests usually lose a lot o strength in the end game. (Oh yeah also book of Sin is 4 room charge not 3 lol but not that it being in C+ will hurt it that much anyway.). Fanny pack: For me, this one's placement is affected by Humble bundle's placement. You put Fanny Pack there because Humbling Bundle at the same spot too. Nonetheless though I feel like its placement is fine at C+ above Quarter. I agree but again Bundle should be higher. Sharp plug: I think this one should be higher than Habit. We are basically just comparing two EXTREMELY similiar items here. But the difference which makes sharp plug arguably better for me is that it's ALWAYS half a heart for 1 charge. For habit it's half first but 1 heart later. Sure, habit has better synergy with on hit beggars and machines, but sharp plug has that immediate on-hit effects and synergy with on-hit items and contact items with I frames. The other problem is that both items take EQUAL AMOUNTS of your Hp anyway. In fact, they are actually the same in the early game. Both take equal amounts of hp to charge an item though Sharp's always capped at 0.5 hearts, making it better than habit in the late game unless you accidentally pressed space loads of times or have Wafer or Cancer. The example you gave with book of shadows is irrelevant too. When you use book of shadows with the habit, you'll have to take damage 3 times and that's the only way to recharge your item with it. This'll take 3 hits so it'll be 3 full hearts on Womb and onward, whereas Sharp plug will give the same number of charges for half the price so 1,5 hearts while also giving on hit items' effects on demand. So your point of "damaging yourself to not get damaged" doesn't make sense because the habit needs twice that same damage than sharp plug for the same reward after Womb. Guillotine: Agree. Call it a permanent worm trinket more than an item honestly...but what do you expect from an item that's supposed to take your head away ? Ball of bandages: Agree. Champion belt: Agree. Butt bombs: This item's placement really makes me wonder if bomb items should be D+. I'd agree with its placement. But should bomb items be at D+ while Bomb bag and Bogo are sitting comfortably at C- ? Other bomb items can also catch up with their effects. Maybe not bomb bag because bombs are viable every floor, but Bogo can especially be caught by most of these items. Especially by Mr. Mega and Butt bombs. You should either drop Bogo down or put those two right next to it. Gnawed leaf: OH-MY-GOD PROBABLY ONE OF THE MOST FRUSTRATING AND SUBJECTIVE ITEMS IN THE GAME. Okay, this is C- for me, below cube of meat. This item could've been higher if it was ANYTHING else besides immunity during combat (Well, it's also THE damocles counter anyway). But missing Boss Rush and Hush for it ? And the item may not even be useful for the whole game without the right set of items. At best as you said, you can use it to survive a difficult attack from an enemy or boss. But it's still so hard to rank because it's an item like Magic 8 Ball but the ends of the stick are even more exteme. I don't think B tiers are the place for putting it though. It's something easy to say, but hard to execute. Spider baby: Agree. Guppy's collar: OH GOD. Honestly, this is one hell of a placement. It's basically Undertale in Isaac: Live or die. I wish this item's position for revival were changed to 2nd after Soul of Laz. Because having to rely on a 50/50 just for a revive with half a heart isn't still exactly a good outcome if you don't have hearts to refill your Hp. It could be better if this item would prevent revives from other items from occuring maybe when you're playing a sac room or blood donation machine. Again, this STILL saved 2 of my strongest Lost runs so not complaining here. But yeah. It's also a quality 1 item too :P Lost contact: Probably below Tech. Tech fells far more safer decause of its indirect buffs to your stats and that the effect is much safer to use on endgame bosses. I agree that its defense is busted. But Tech puts so much more on the table in both offense and defense that lost contact's effect still feels less compared to the attributes of Tech's lasers and their synergies. But it's still so good on bosses and general defense with enough stats which every item in A- commonly needs so it's where it should be. Anemic: Agree. Goat head: Agree. Ceremonial robes: This and pact are honestly interchangeable and depend on the run. I would honestly almost ALWAYS take the Pact if my tears aren't maxed out. So the placements just come to the matter of tears more than damage really. If you haven't got your tears capped, take Pact. If you have, take Robes. Mom's wig: Agree. Placenta: DISAGREE. Probably above Lil Chad could be good. Old bandage: Agree. Sad bombs: Interchangeable with Mr. Mega depending on the run honestly. Mr. Mega is MUCH more useful on runs where you go for standard tears and tear effects. With brimstone, it IS better than Mr. Mega AND Bobby. But again you put Bobby really high for me too and you're far more likely to get a run without any fancy tear effects than having those BROKEN tear effects like brimstone. Plus, Mega is better in utility and general bombing. Rubber cement: Agree. Good thing you saw the Parasite when you were ranking it. The reason why I think they're powerful is probably because they just CARRY the endgame. Both also need good stats to work out too. But I think the highest 4 B+ items should be moved up a tier. I think the fact that they have strength to carry the endgame while also having a LOT of synergies to shine from the items you've collected makes them worthy of A- at the very least. Also, you'll have more offensive items to compare at the lower end of the A- tier for future items. Anti gravity(my favourite item design-wise): Agree. Definitely an item looked down upon. It shines especially in runs with normal tears. Pyromaniac: I don't agree with the placement honestly. This is one the q4 items in the game that should be domoted to q3. Sorry, but Host hat's passive 25% blocking projectiles is far more straightforward than TRYING to break the game for me. Sure, you MAY get a lot of bombs, but you're also putting yourself in a vulnerable position until the bomb explodes for...half a heart. This item doesn't even help when you get it on a normal run. Usually I get it and say "Oh, just 5 bombs then" and just awkwardly take it and leave. The synergies with bomb items are usually unimportant to me too. It's just like the Placenta Theorem you guys mentioned (And holy heck there have been 3 items ranked this way by now). It's below pyro and above flight for me. Call me a maniac if you want to. But this is just explosion immunity for me really. Okay...this is it. It's 2 in the morning right now in here. So I don't really know when you'll see this. Again, the stream was really great and chill. I still feel like there are Way more suggestions and changeable items that I would spend an extra 1 hour just explaing half of them. But I guess we'll come there soon enough. Anyways, good stream again. Hope the next ones become much more entertaining by the week.

Unironically I would take chocolate milk over everything below tech, it's so good. It's WAY better in rooms than against bosses. Any time you spend running between enemies or aligning yourself to shoot them, you spend charging. It is way way way better than just a 1.5x damage multiplier in normal rooms.

Dollar HAS to be better than steam sale. I feel like the "50 cent" thing is a troll. Steam sale is still not nearly as good even after you pick up 50 coins, because you would get those coins on the Dollar run too. You would have to pick up _100 coins_ before steam sale is actually better than Dollar on the same run.

Guillotine also gives a fire rate up. Not a tears up. 0.5 to be specific

I thought act of contrition just converted most of your devil chance. Okay just googled it doesn't even increase your devil chance it just reduces the penalty for taking red heart damage idgi why is this being compared to duality

Guillotine in detrimental? Skill issue.

Can’t believe Waluigi made a TH-cam video

Yo, an intro?

The unhinged high energy intro was a big jumpscare for someone who only watches the streams. But lets go! Guillotine really deserves the spectral tears buff and nobody would curse its name again.

Second (im almost lying)

First (Im lying)

First

thanks for the ragebait thumbnail

I'll just keep editing this comment with my opinions as I watch the video If bum friend is bad on the 4 floors, debatable on 2, and good on 4, why is he 'mostly detrimental'? Humbleing bundle and mom's key are both 15 cent shop items that give you more pickups, so by logic they should both be either similar or noy too far apart. "Lets stop here" Turt says, as the video has 3 hours remaining.

I one time found 4 Dolars on one floor, if I would have restock I would have be so happy, xd

Where is that video turt mentioned about a song of the ceremonial robes?

I love how the short starts with him reading my chat message

Today i got polyphemus first item and 3 dollar bill next floor. That combo carried me through blue baby, mega satan and delirium

I just get the piss tears to often

My first run i ever won was with 3 dollar bill

The good thing about Poly is the slow tear rate. In case of crickets head you need to hit each tear to get the dps in case of Poly, you need to just hit one or two tears ands that's it

But from what I see, it’s a q3, passive, and unlocked by character. It’s either partially white or yellow. But I don’t remember any other yellow quality 3 item. So I am going to assume it’s at least partially white q3. So my first thought is that it is perhaps star of Bethlehem, because it’s a q3, white, and unlocked by Bethany. But then, star came out in repentance, but the item is not from repentance Maybe dad’s ring? Unlocked by forgor, q3, not from treasure pool or shop, or angel

It was OBVIOUSLY dads ring manner smh

It may be dad's ring

I think its dad's ring

bruh i just made my channel and you do this???? (i know that people have already done this before i think but uhhh)

Tainted Samson b, how could you

The D4 slander is crazy. You can literally reroll your entire build over and over again until you have a broken one. You can manipulate item pools until you have a won run. Easy INSANE tier without hesitation. It gives you all the positives of tainted Eden with none of the downsides because you can stop rerolling as soon as you get a build you’re happy with. No way you think D4 is trash without the bug.

Finished the tainted lost unlocks while listening to this video. I hope y'all put Dad's key high cause it let me get mega satan and delirium

Okay, thoughts about the placements and some changes in the list you can take it as a grain of salt: Chocolate Milk going higher: Honestly, yeah. It should've been higher in the first place. But I didn't think Turt would put it THAT high up the list. Having the ability to control the strength and rate of your tears is both good for general damage and tear effects for me. And during the endgame you should have enough damage that spam shots can outperform charge shots with other items. Plus, it basically acts as "ammunition" (Basically because it gives the effect of all other shots, giving your bullets a permanent buff at all times) for items which decrease your tears stat (I know there are also a lot of items it cant synergize well with like moms knife or tech X) allowing those items to shoot whether or not you have fully charged them. I feel like it should be above piercing shots at the least but kept around the same range as poly. Polyphemus: I again agree with Turt here. I HAVE lost runs with Poly even though there were some skill issues in them. The problem with poly for me is that it has a definite downside coming with it along with the HUGE damage up you are getting as well, which for me makes it a little worse than some q4 items in general. Items like tech or dr fetus generally provide more shape to the run than it for me. It also does bad with most tier effects, not because most generally dont scale with damage anyway, but that they won't proc if you shoot one (and missable, if there arent any tear effects like tech) tear at a time even in late game. But when you put an item that scales with your damage, poly CRUSHES choco milk. It just boils down to which items you may have on the run. Choco is better in runs where you have low tear rate and tear effects. Poly is better when you have any kind of item that may bypass its weakness "choco, tech .5, mom's knife, tech X...) or when you have an item which scales with your damage. Both are really similiar and are great "ammunition" items for me. Daddy longlegs: Agree Spider butt: Mostly agree. Though it still does some damage and rewards you at the start of the run. It can be a good room clearer on some groups of enemies too. But yea that's about it. Other actives above it usually have more versatility or more consistent room clearing . Sac dagger: Worse than telepathy for dummies for me. Being WAAAYYYY too risky in the late and endgame while also only being an orbital tucks it between cube of meat and halo of flies. Holy water isn't risky at all and has a good effect that'll be reliable for the whole run, I'd take an extra trinket room for more tear effects or stats over an orbital especially in late game, and homing for 50% of the run is too good for an active that is q1. I could even force it to below sad onion actually. Tears are just better if you haven't maxed them out. Mitre: Agree. Rainbow baby: Agree. It can do some good dmg occasionally but yea. Dad's key: Lowkey really underrated.Utility items are the best. Agree. Good that shears are also a tier lower. It's basically similiar to the book of belial if you think about it. One gives you flight, the other gives hou higher deal chances. Both give you extra dps and shears gives you that opportunity to dodge. Stem Cells: Yep, agree. Slot: Agree, though it feels less niche and risky than kamikaze. Mostly Detrimental's Introduction: It's okay honestly. Not many of the items in isaac are outright bad. The closest ones you'll get are quality 0's and some are just items that are either active items or ones that do straight up nothing. As for bum friend's placement there, Turt had made a good point on his drops actually. I was playing a normal keeper run (No wooden nickel) the other day, and this fella randomly dropped lucky foot and 2 hp ups in the run randomly. He usually shines in the late game if you ask me. Holy water: Agree. You can look at sac dagger for its reason. Fate: Okay, the placement ranges from just above lord of the pit to above transcendence which is really tight. But it's placement just solely depends on if you've protected that eternal heart for the floor. If so, it's better because in this tier list and in my eyes -> +1Hp > +0.3 speed. We are not considering context here, so it should be better than lord of the pit. Yo said that speed is usually better in the endgame and is run saving, so in that case, the speed ups should also be above the Hp ups. Simple as that if you think that way or it'll cause contradictions. But I can see flight being above the b+ items actually as Turt said. Black bean: Agree. White pony: So...I watched you testing this item's insane damage and debating it pretty intensively and actively more than any other item in the list (Other than choco and poly, sacred heart or 3 dollar bill). It also took a good bit of time to rank. First of all, it should be at b+ so that's right. It could also be above lord of the pit for me as well. Having a godly ability on top of a better speed up that'll probably carry you for the run basically makes it better than lord of the pit. Most actives (not non-utility or one room effect) usually lose a lot of their strength in the end game but this is an exception. It has received a buff which makes it basically relevant in any stage of the game (thanks to dmg scaling and utility. Honestly, they should buff most set dmg items and familiars to scale with your dmg. It makes such items just more dependable after womb. This is actually my wish for some item buffs). But yeah, if we're taking context into account, it being lower than lord of the pit makes a little sense. So overall, I agree of its placement. Sacred heart: Oh boy, here we go again. I did watch your stream of testing sacred heart and godhead. And I can say that it's a contender for top 5. It has synergies with almost EVERY item in the game !!! It's the same "ammunition" item thing just like with poly and choco but with homing and a LOT more damage (highest dmg multiplier in the game). It can make every tear replacement effect, every tear effect, damage up, all stats up, or firing effect worthwhile to take because it just absorbs their effects as well. It's so versatile and full of synergies that it makes any type of run guaranteed to become better. That's why I COMPLETELY agree with it being at top 5. Heck, you could make that "Top 10" just to keep those "holy homing arrows" staying there. The only ever offensive q4 beating it is c section. But we'll get there later. Toothpicks: Agree. Holy grail: Agree. Just fate but you get the health up early which may matter. Dead dove: Agree. Blood rights: Definitely agree. Guppy's hairball: Just putting it above stuff like tears ups, cards, flight, all stats ups, free curse rooms, and familiars which persist between floors because it's 1/3 guppy is a CRIME. Worse part is that you are always getting this for the cost of 1 heart. I would put it somewhere between c- and c+. The same goes for guppy's head. Putting those two items in b- just for the transformation isn't great because you'll probably ignore them after getting the transformation anyway. For the syringe items, especially the virus, I can understand its placement because they were ranked next to the items they would normally perform well against ignoring the transformations. Abel: Agree. At least make it shoot other tier effects as an update man. SMB super fan: Agree. You know what's funny? The halo is q2 while this is q3 DESPITE both giving the same stats. The heal is nice, but irrelevant usually. Pyro: Agree. 3 Dollar bill: DEFINITELY agree. It's really good not only a dps up, but also because it's just 41 items combined to make 1 common item. I don't think lucky foot being there is an oversight. It's just so goddamn versatile that once knowiğng it was q3 once makes a lot of sense. It singlehandedly carries the whole tear effects part of the run by itself only. The effects are easy to notice and take action to. I guess it is between and dr fetus here. Tho you can put dr fetus 1 tier above as well... Telepathy for dummies: Agree. Spoon bender every 2 rooms. This and monster manual are the 2 book items which are treated the WORST. q1 for the two of them is straight up EVIL. Meat: Agree. 8 Ball: Sorta agree. It's an item that is so random that it's impossible to deduce where EXACTLY it is. I'd say below roid rage tho. It's just too random and the planetarium may not even have a good item in it anyway. Coin purse: Agree. It's so annoying to get tho. Squeezy: Agree. Jesus juice: Agree. It also adds +0.5 damage +1.5 range > 0.7 tears into the tier list too. Box: Could be put below compass. Mapping is just so good to plan out your run and know where to go for boss rush runs. I feel like treasure map should also be at the same tier and spot with the compass. You CAN guess and go to the furthest room in the map to find the boss and knowing the layout is great to try to find secret rooms early to spend less time on them later. Oh god, didn't think it would be that long to write this. It's been 4 hours already and my fingers are real tired. Anyways, I LOVE these types of weekly streams. You all were really chill and even I was surprised to know that some items could be used better and more considerably overall. Looking forward to the next stream with the rebirth items !

Scattered thoughts at this point: You really dont think money equals power deserves a- ? Late game you’re bound to max it out. I think you were right to put 3 dollar bill above technology, cause I think tech is honestly overrated. I feel about it sorta like turt feels about flight plus spectral (which I don’t agree with btw): it’s really just the piercing doing the lifting while the infinite range is just kinda nice but actually not that big a deal. Has synergies yeah but also antisynergies. I’d cry if I found godhead after picking this up. 3 dollar caries a lot harder, that’s just a fact. Shovel could move down a tier imo. Yeah crawlspaces can technically contain c section, but they don’t, you invariably get bum friend. Seriously though, treasure pool is uneven to say the least, and often you don’t even get items. Plus it’s an active. B- fits better to m, and maybe move the items below to b- too. Shop da woop could go up somewhat. Not sure how much. Actually really solid for both room clearing and early and mid game bosses. Is notched axe good enough to be above any syringe item, or is the prospect of spun enough in itself to make them better? I think so imo. Again, also about being an active item. Isnt squeezy and rosary pretty comparable? One more soul heart hardly means different tier, and honestly the bible part is really annoying.

Doesn't give Bob's rotten head 0/10

Ok I haven't been showing up often as much cuz life but I'ma try to engage again, 3 dollar bill is one of those items I hated picking up cuz it sorta ruins the consistency of my tears but at the end it felt worth it

I know you guys didnt talk about this in this video but i finally understand why turt is fighting so much for glitched crown. I got it in a Tainted Lost run and got the boss rush, hush and delirium marks only losing like two holy cards (i also got rkey at the last floor and was going for mother, but I entered depths instead of mausoleum by mistake lol). And i have a massive skill issue problem so glitched crown really carried the run

This is true because pride day, a challenge with 3 DB and without any treasure rooms, is easy. You don't need any more items from the treasure pool to pass, which shows how strong it is.

The cut version of the stream feels a bit unnatural to listen to. I prefer full debates as podcast. Great that youtube just save the full streams.

1:39:41 It's worth noting that the Trinket cycle is completely fixed. As you can see whenever you have Guppy's Eye, the next Trinket that spawns from anything other than a fixed drop (Match Book, Ultra Pride, etc.) is fixed, regardless of where you get it from. If you get an ass Trinket from the Box, that just means you're seeing it sooner than you otherwise would have, meaning Box is actually a delayed benefit until you see your first good Trinket.

❤

oh hey i remmebred this channel after a while, forgot yalls dynamic is really good lol. unmovable force vs unstoppable object on like half the placements and super in depth discusion is fun

Bruh Ipecac should be in S tier

extra is in title

Respectfully, polyphemus being near crystal ball and lucky foot is disgusting but cook ig

dogsh*t clickbait thumbnail

Poly is insane tho