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Congrats to Phil and his great team at Balance in South Africa. Truly a world class company.

That's a good point. With the Edrive as efficient as it is, it could be argued you can use less solar. I think most want enough solar to operate the boat during daylight hours without resorting to additional charging. But it is true, the new E-drive generates a very fast and powerful charge off the engines.

David, it would be hard to retrofit an E-drive on a Balance because the engine bay bed has to be expanded a bit to make it fit properly. You would be best to add on the existing Integrel alternators.

Sorry, this isn't true. In fact a recent email I got from someone who watched the video shared with me another sunken shaft driven boat that ran aground. I've sold 1,000 cats in my days as a broker, and I have no seen any cost savings for my customers with shafts over drives and of all the cats that I've seen really seriously scuttled it was shaft cats. They engines must be far forward in the hulls on any cat under 55 feet and under the berths. But lets not fight over this. You have your view. I co-designed the boats with Anton and we believe in drives for all the reasons I stated. I just think for those who want shafts on a cat under 55 feet you are left with just one or two options, so whatever benefits you think they offer you are accepting the pros and cons of every other aspect of those designs. All designs and builds represent trade-offs of some sort or another. A buyer who gets hung up on one feature as being somehow paramount is prepared to close their eyes on all sorts of other features of a yacht that may be less "perfect."

The E-drive is a bolt on system as well, but removes the need for belts and pulleys. It does require alteration to our current engine bays, however.

@@balancecatamarans good to hear it's a bolt-on system and (hopefully) won't require removal / movement of engine or sail-drive to remove / replace the unit, or impede engine operation (as in currently we just shut down controller and remove belt to remove from engine operation).

In our view, until you get into a cat over 60 feet you give up too much salon and cockpit space to make a forward cockpit appealing. We also do not like reefing and sail handling in the front as it is cold and windy and wet. But it's nice for a morning coffee at anchor or sailing off the wind. We do offer a forward cockpit on our 75, but carry two bulkhead helms aft of the salon, one of which is a versa-helm for cold piloting and steering down below when required.

Thank you!

Load is load, whether it's turning a generator or turning a prop. The E-Drive controller needs to manage the engine speed and torque, etc. Its software can be tuned to different combustion engines and adjusts to different operating conditions. According to Integrel's web site, E-Drive is currently compatible with Yanmar, Volvo, Nanni, Beta, Vetus combustion engines.

Yes, the E-Drive system is designed with safety as top priority. The system monitors the voltage, current, and temperature of all components, including the batteries (independent of the battery management system). If operational limits are exceeded, the system ramps back power. If safety limits are exceeded, generation or drive is temporarily suspended and a warning shows on the Integrel Touchscreen.

Diesel would usually only be used for long passages with no wind. With good weather planning, most of those can be avoided, so you could mostly sail and motor less. Electric drive can be used for most motoring: leaving an anchorage, motoring to a mooring or harbor, etc. Therefore Diesel would be used much less often, saving fuel costs. A boat needs a battery bank. With some electric drive, the bank should be larger. The battery bank should be sized appropriately. The size depends on the expected loads, amount of solar, and many other variables.

@@LoanwordEggcorn thanks for your reply. I am interedted to find out how long or engine running hours you could buy for the additional cost for a combo system.

@@user-df5zq9up3t If you mean the electric motor, its running time is limited by battery capacity, solar generation, generator. However if you needed to run the generator to move the boat, you would just use the Diesel engine and move it directly with the Diesel. That's an advantage of a parallel hybrid system. If you mean the running time of the Diesel, that's limited by fuel capacity, including extra cans/bags. Or do you mean something else?

@@LoanwordEggcorn i enquiring abouy the additional costs of the electrical component of the motor. Ie the electrical motor additional cost of instalation extra batteties solat panels etc. Is it econimical if you only use it to get in and out of the marina.

@@user-df5zq9up3t A Windelo 54 recently did two atlantic crossings with a serial hybrid electric drive and never used their Diesel generator. The potential exists to not burn much Diesel, so fuel costs could be very low.

The hybrid drive motor is positioned between the engine and the gearbox. It can generate power _OR_ drive the boat, but not both at the same time.

​@@jasoncrawford6447 Since the clutch is between the Diesel and the electric motor, the Diesel can be declutched while the electric motor moves the boat, i.e. electric propulsion only mode. The electric motor can also generate electricity when the Diesel is moving the boat. When both Diesel and motor are clutched together and the gearbox is engaged in gear, the Diesel can move the boat while the motor acts as a generator by creating a load on the Diesel. If the electric motor tries to turn faster than the Diesel, then its torque helps move the boat faster, i.e., both motors working together in parallel to move the boat faster than the Diesel alone. It can generate power without moving the boat if the gearbox can be disengaged while the electric motor is clutched to the Diesel. That's possible, but depends on the gearbox design. I.e., Is neutral really neutral with the gears disengaged?

We have had more than a few bad experiences with soft panels at Balance, installed for customers at their request. Read carefully the Solbian cautions on overheating and burning! And the paltry warranty life! But the biggest issue is that they perform much more poorly than glass panels and their performance degrades quickly. Without air under them solar panels all perform worse too. Anyways, we can install soft panels if customers are fully aware of the negatives and we are not liable for a burnt hard top. But you need a lot more soft panels to do what a glass one does, let me tell you. As it is, 2,400 watts of glass panels are enough to take a Balance from Cape Town to Florida without any additional charging if there is an engine or alternator failure. One of our customers proved this some years ago when he had two Balmar alternator defect failures.

@@balancecatamarans Yes, but have you actually tried the Solbians? Their live performance can be seen in some of the Windelo videos. I think it's a Victron energy display. There may be other decent walkable panels; I point out Solbian as one example. A downside of glass panels is that it limits where one can step.

Electric motors in a hybrid system usually can be used as a generator. Integrel's E-Drive can. Most sailboats also recharge the battery bank from solar, shore power, hydrogeneration, etc. If you're referring to a serial hybrid, the solution is to use the same type of electric motor as a generator attached to the Diesel. The electric drive motors are highly efficient. When the same type of motor is used as a (separate) generator (powered from the Diesel), it's also highly efficient.

Should be similar. The axial motor Integel is using has a smaller physical footprint in an engine compartment.

Beta Marine is an engine manufacturer. I believe some of their customers install Bell Marine electric motors to them. I am not well familiar with this product, but we ruled it out for Balance because we wanted the global service and support of Yanmar, the support from Integrel, and only wanted to use a sail-drive system as I sought to explain in my video.

@@balancecatamarans Beta has a hybrid with a toothed belt electric motor clutched to the output shaft. It's their own product as used by HH and has their own controller integrated seamlessly with the throttles. It's on Beta's UK web site under "hybrid propulsion", and is now on the water. It does look like it may be the Bell motor. Integrel's E-Drive is definitely a better fit for what you're doing. But the point is that more hybrids are appearing.

You're forgetting that you can also charge the battery bank using solar and hydrogeneration. Purely electric sailboats use the electric motor to leave the dock/mooring/anchorage, raise the sails, leave the electric motor engaged to hydrogenerate, and recharge all the energy used to motor, simply by sailing. After the battery is recharged, they disengage the hydrogeneration while continuing to sail. It's motoring by wind power. Back on shore they can recharge from shore power. At anchor, they recharge (and power house loads) from solar or windmill, etc. (A lot more people are going purely solar now, since it's silent and so cheap.)

@@LoanwordEggcorn you can get caught in a 7-10 day no wind area in the ocean. if that happens you can motor only dependent on how much solar you have. if you have 4500 watts of solar and can charge for 12 hours that would fill a 50kw battery bank but what loads does it take to run fridges, navigation instruments, water maker etc... Lets say you have 35 kw left to use a day to motor if each engine uses 7kw to go 5 knots that is 2.5 hours of motoring and you would go 12.5 Nautical miles in a day. I would want duel diesels right now even if I had 250kw of battery bank and 8kw of solar. Most likely you in a 10 day windless area you would run your engine 1 hour to achieve 2-3 hours of electric sailing. Right now 125kw of battery bank is perfect. you get smaller diesel engines 2 30hp or whatever it takes to achieve 8 knots of speed. Then only have enough diesel to make it 500nm of motoring which gives you 1500nm of total motoring. Then to make up for the difference in battery weight you have smaller water tanks. That is the minimal. I do not know enough about kite sails and if they work when you only have 2-3 knots of wind at water level, which means 4-10 knots 85 feet up. That would be the only thing that might make a pure electric boat possible.

@@dc1544 Agree Diesels are needed for long becalmed passages. However, outside of the doldrums, and with good weather routing, those can be minimized. (And yes, we know weather routing is not perfect. But it helps most of the time.) Was not suggesting a purely electric boat for world cruising, but in most places people sail, and with weather planning, motoring can be minimized. It also helps to have a boat that sails efficiently in light wind like a Balance or other performance boats. Regarding battery sizing, it's about optimizing things. If you have more solar, you need less battery. If you have smaller water tanks, but larger solar, you can run the watermaker more often. Etc. You don't mention the size of the boat, but for say a 40 to 50 foot cat, I would never put hundreds of kWh of battery in it if it had enough solar, hydrogeneration and a Diesel with enough electric power output. 50 kWh should be plenty for typical house loads and typical electric motoring to and from anchorages, harbors, moorings, etc. I'm a huge proponent of electrification, but Diesel fuel is still more energy dense than battery, even with the inefficiencies of internal combustion. So I'd suggest that more Diesel fuel and a relatively smaller (but still large) battery bank is appropriate. It really depends on the boat and solar and weather. A Windelo 54 recently did two Atlantic crossings with solar and hydrogeneration to (charge the battery to) power house loads and never started the serial hybrid Diesel generator once. The Windelos have about 1 to 4.5 kW of solar. Given how cheap solar is, I would definitely use more of it than Phil does. And walkable panels. Yes, they're less efficient, but they're far more practical for areas where you would like to walk to tend to sails.

@@dc1544 Integrel/Balance haven't published range yet, but early estimates indicate more than double the range you have quoted above for at least one of the Balance cats.

@@jasoncrawford6447 I posted 1500 nm is that what you are referring to? I think a bout really only needs 1000 nm from engine power. Some are even saying 500nm range with engine power( gas and electric combined). Now also if you can sail 4 knots while regening then you can use 1 engine to get you up to 6 knots. especially if sun is out and you can replace the 4-5kw you are using to add 2 knots of speed. I think using as much electric power as possible without burning any diesel. replacing 1 diesel you can add 30kw of batteries now replacing that fuel tank weight when full also means you can add more solar above dingy and add another 30kw of battery also. So with 1 hybrid engine with 100 gallons of diesel, 120kw of battery bank and 4kw of solar you should be able to cruise the world. We will see soon enough as others are setting up there boats like that now.

One very important thing most fail to realize [In regard to all electric boat] BATTERIES can NOT be charged and discharged an unlimited number of times. They can be charged/discharged only a certain number of times before their efficiency diminishes tremendously. Which means the COST of replacing those batteries for new batteries for the sake of always running solely on electric propulsion would be astronomical. BATTERY TECHNOLOGY simply is not there yet. Solar technology is not there yet either. I like what Integral has accomplished with their technology to at least provide a cost effective option to use while we wait for battery and solar technology to improve dramatically.

@@WyckoffMode Current Lithium Iron Phospate batteries can be charged thousands of cycles. In typical boat use, that would be many decades of use. Your information is very out of date. SunPower solar cells are 24% efficient. That's not too far from the Shockley-Queisser limit.

​@@WyckoffMode current generation LFP cells can do 6000+ full cycles and still have 80% of their initial range.. fir the amount of use most yachts get, that's probably longer life than the yacht

@@timtravelnomad Correct. It would be multiple decades of boat life. When the boat is scrapped, the batteries would be recycled, but probably still have useful life even then. In short, the batteries would last much longer than the boat, and most boats last decades.

It is better than two diesel generators and two electric motors in my view. With two diesels you at least get excellent propulsion redundancy. Prior to our adoption of the Integrel alterators we had to install a diesel generator and two motors. But a cat without two diesels would be very hard to dock too!

In principle you could easily double the power by stacking two electric motors and controllers in parallel. In practice you'd probably never need it. How often do you use a full 80 horsepower on a (sailing) catamaran? (Or charge at 60 kW?)

The E-Drive 15 system will be able to output higher power for up to 120 seconds only. Larger systems are planned, however they are unlikely to be air cooled.

Not at this time. 15KW is a hell of a lot of charge coming from one diesel engine.

Higher than 15Kw on a 45 HP diesel? Wow, 15KW is really superb. With two engines it is like going about with a 30KW generator.

The more performance the cat, the smaller the motors you need. An 80HP is not enough for many of the behemoth charter cats over 50 feet. But a 45 HP works just fine on a Balance 48 or 52.

That's why it's not done: added complexity and maintenance for relatively low benefit. The Integrel E-Drive electric pancake motor between the ICE clutch and gearbox is a very good solution in terms of packaging, installation, integration and function.

I am afraid not. But we keep our eyes out for all great innovations!

Regarding the T-Shape: I am not an engineer and this would be out of my skill set to know! We decided to work with Integrel based on both 5 years of experience but also the intensive RD they have invested in over the past few years.

@@balancecatamarans By t shape he means feeding a gearbox from both motors, via clutches, and having a clutch on the output of the gearbox to be able to turn the gearbox (and prop) from either motor or disengage the prop from the geabox to turn the electric motor as a generator. The clutched electric motors of Integrel E-Drive or Beta Marine hybrid are much simpler solutions. Simpler is almost always better. The props he mentioned are horizontally turning props best suited for tugboats and would probably foul a lot on a sailboat, in addition to being vastly more complex. Again, simpler is usually better.

It depends on the battery chemistry, battery construction, etc. Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries, which are becoming universal in boats and some cars, can be charged at 1C with no problem, so a reasonably large battery bank would have no problem with this charging rate. They're also among the least sensitive to temperature.

No, the ~20x more dense number is including conversion efficiencies. Unconverted to useful shaft HP, diesel is about 38.6MJ/L, lithium is about 0.75MJ/L. With that said, efficiency goes a long way in being green. A light, sleek boat uses a lot less diesel.

@@KeithStrang Mass usually matters more than volume. Diesel fuel is about 12.7k Wh/kg. Lithium ion batteries are on the about 200 Wh/kg. Diesel engines are heavy and have less than 40% efficiency (and lots of maintenance). Electric motors (of the same power) are light and have 95+% efficiency.

The flat shape of the motors suggests they are axial flux. Many modern AC motors are highly efficient: axial flux, reluctance, induction, permanent magnet, etc. Motor and controller efficiencies combining above 90% are common now.

The Integrel motor is a custom radial flux motor designed specifically for the marine market.

@@jasoncrawford6447That's what I was looking for.

That's the team expanding. That's our way of keeping on, keeping on.

Thanks a lot Tony! I am focusing most of my time these days on design and innovation projects and less to videos and that sort of thing. We have so many talented team members now - close to a 1,000 last check - that I wish to see us diversify our videos with talented new faces.

We carry many videos on our Balance owners group portal on all aspects of maintaining, handling, sailing, troubles-hooting our cats. We did not think to do a vide on single-handing any other catamaran than ours, however.

@@balancecatamarans you should do a video on singlehanding. You ever notice that there are many solo crossing TH-cam series with 30-40 monohulls but no cats? It's all couples on cats. But there are many solo dreamers who want fast boats that don't rock in the Caribbean

@@balancecatamarans can your catamarans be singlehanded safely? It seems many monohulls are targeting the singlehanded crew like hanse.

Thank you. I continue to think that the best thing about the E-drive is the crazy fast charging. The technology Integral acquired from Parker Hannifin Engineering is the secret sauce. Plus all of their RD and testing these past few years.

@@balancecatamarans It's a good concept, and I trust the Integrel folks to implement it well.

Hi Paul, I do not wish to call out a specific manufacturer here. I simply wished to point out that installing a lot of solar on a catamaran or an electric motor system does not make a yacht green. It can make it greener of course. I stress that sailing more than motoring is critical. It takes a lot more fuel to push a heavy charter cat, for example, than a Balance or an Outremer. I have no idea what other builders may claim, but I did see marketing at a recent boat show for “emissions free sailing.” That’s a fantasy on the operational side unless the boat owner is prepared to drift through the doldrums or turn off all electric gear on cloudy days. If you followed the Jimmy Cornell Alcana challenge in the effort to sail around the world without fossil fuels, they had to give up the effort soon after they began. If a given cat arrived after an Atlantic crossing where they “gave fuel away” on arrival does not prove they did not use fuel. But of course if they had beam winds all the way and great solar days they may not have needed much fuel. If they were carrying extra diesel it means they had a generator to propel electric motors, or had a parallel hybrid diesel electric system. That they arrived with more fuel than they thought they would need is hardly proof it was a fossil free passage. All passages are different. I once crossed the Atlantic from Gibraltar to Bermuda in August and we had almost zero wind the entire time. To conserve fuel we motored at 3 knots or less or not at all. There are efforts underway to build boats with greener materials. We have explored them, but are not convinced they are proven enough yet for us to jump on board. Best, Phil

@@balancecatamarans Totally awesome that you took the time to reply in detail. Surely new cats that are coming out with 5+ Kw of solar and elect motors and have a generator still have a reduced fuel consumption?

Paul, sorry for slow reply. Of course you are correct. More solar is always a benefit so long as you have a battery bank that can take advantage of it.