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Yeah I’d say those are all valid points. When the latest version of the Propel was released my first thoughts were “what does this mean for the TCR” and worried that Giant would look to phase out the TCR, but then they tweaked it, and yes it certainly could be seen as a climbers bike, but I think geometry aside, the carbon layup used for the TCR is a little more forgiving for all day in the saddle as well. That said, none of their bikes are uncomfortable to ride all day, especially if you are still young enough / fit / flexible enough to handle an aggressive position, and if comfort is the aim then it’s Defy every time anyway. I’m not sure the Propel would necessarily suit you better in hilly terrain, but if heavier then the benefits of the TCR are certainly mitigated, and you would then benefit from the definite plus points of the Propel as well. Fact is, they are both great bikes so neither would disappoint.

@wecycle384 yeah, that all sounds logical, thanks. Other advantage is that TCR 2025 has bigger tire clearance than Propel. Giant apparently decided that Propel is an aero bike, not an allround apparently, and made space for 622x30 only (probably around of up to 32mm measured carcass width I reckon), but I could live with that. But I would assume Propel will still be stiffer under torque, and as I weigh around 90kg and sometimes like to do some sprinting up some smaller hill etc. exceeding 1000W I guess that extra stiffness should feel fun. In hilly terrain you actually spend quite a lot of time pedalling down small gradients with 40kph+, so aero actually starts to matter more even for average amateurs IMO. Giant race bikes seems to have quite relaxed geometries, at least in my size - I'd pick ML. Orbea Orca is the one race bike I know that is a bit more relaxed still, but it is a typical climbing bike (and quite heavy in the budget layup I believe) while Orca Aero is quite heavy and typical go-flat aero bike (that supposedly actually isn't that great with aero). With most other bikes I'd need even more spacers. Most endurance bikes will be more comfortable, but will also feel more sluggish due to longer chainstays and/or slacker head tube angles and larger fork offsets. I ride Orbea Terra currently, have a 51mm road wheelset as well and it is fast, but proper roadbike will surely feel different enough and more practical to have separate bikes than swapping wheels (mainly because gravel bike gets dirty when riding off road).

Endurance ride on a gravel bike feels fine, but if you were to ride it side by side with a Propel or TCR the Gravel would definitely feel sluggish. If you then took it to a twisty race track you would notice a massive difference between a gravel / endurance bike and the race bikes. Absolute night and day, in terms of cornering, direction change and acceleration. So it sounds like the way you ride a Propel could be a great option for you. Enjoy!

@wecycle384 I think for amateur riding important difference might be when climbing standing - with shorter rear and front and smaller trail the bike should "dance" under the rider more naturally. My M size Terra is 15mm longer in rear and around 23mm on front than Propel ML, so the difference should be quite easy to feel I reckon, and that's probably why Terra feels a bit sluggish when climbing standing, even with 28mm road tyres (but of course it descends great thanks to that, especially on gravel etc.). Even my "city" bike, Triban 100 size L (could have been M) feels more snappy on the front when climbing.

Don't forget to ride your bike, and don't just sit on it playing games!

Its really interesting, I didn't think this argument would come across so strongly, but it seems the general feeling is put the paperwork in place to treat these bikes in the same way petrol bikes and mopeds are being treated. Licence them, and allow them. I'm all for that, but does there also need to be a minimum requirement in terms of build quality? I don't know about the motorbike industry, but I assume there are minimum standards that need to be adhered to? Would someone be able to strap a petrol motor to a bike and get it licensed as a moped?

My 'death trap' comment was based on the obvious poor quality and unsuitable choice of parts and components for such a heavy, and powerful bike. I agree, not moving, without someone sat on it, then it can't cause much harm, but once someone is on it, and it is moving at high speed, then it is just an accident waiting to happen. I'd have no problem with the bikes being on the road if there was, as you suggested some sort of regulation to take into account the added speed, and requirements for them to meet a minimum standard of quality and upkeep. Although I don't share your confidence that it would be easy to set up and cost peanuts, and I definitely wouldn't tax them as I think people are taxed far too much as it is. I'm not Nanny state minded at all, certainly didn't mean to come across like that. What I do mind is the small group at the margin who take advantage of a crack in the system and behave without due care at the detriment to the majority. If everyone was riding these bikes sensibly, following the Highway Code and being nice to each other then, poor quality of bike not withstanding, this wouldn't be an issue at all, Panorama wouldn't have done a hatchet job on it and I wouldn't have responded. But not everyone plays nicely. and they currently get away with it because these vehicles are unlicensed and very hard for the Police to catch at the time and they don't have registrations so they can't be noted down and followed up with later. These bikes effectively operate like mopeds or motorbikes, but often with worse brakes and frame construction, and without any sort of registration.

Can't really argue with any of that!

I agree in part. I’ve got no problem with the machines existing, but keeping them off the streets - or accountable if they are on them - would need a lot of paperwork and I just can’t see the government doing anything to implement it any time soon. Also, side note: you can get more torque but remain within the 250w limit. 85 or 90nm is usually enough for people in North Wales, but Haibike used to produce a 120nm motor which was really strong, it just drained the battery too quickly to really be a success.

I think the country I live in needs an overhaul of attitudes to bikes in general. Kids these days seem to be packed into the car to go somewhere 'safe' for them to ride, and made to wear helmets and this leads, I think, to kids thinking cycling is dangerous. Education and encouragement for cycling should start at school, minimize the car school run for example... because less cars would be there the danger would be less. I feel children are scared of cycling, parents who drive, generally, don't like bikes on the roads, because they 'jump red lights', 'ride two abreast, 'get in the way' and 'cause traffic hold ups'. I've personally ridden bikes in over 20 countries and I can honestly say, the attitude of British drivers is the worst. It's all down to education. In our system car use and ownership is seen as an essential life skill. I find it very sad.

@@velokernow3696 Couldn't agree more. Not only as a nation are we obsessed with car ownership, once in the car people seem to turn into unreasonable, rude, aggressive individuals. Unfortunately we have gone so far down the line, by moving shops out of town and closing village schools, etc that to pull back car ownership is a huge task. Wandsworth Bridge Road have done great things, and are a great example to how areas can reclaim the streets from cars.

Spot on

​@@wecycle384well these bike shops which are all in tears over this panorama show are determined to sell you utter crap for thousands of pounds. The batteries as youve just pointed out drain quickly even running at 250 watt with a little bit more torque and the motors themselves are nothing special. Compare the engineering and capacity of a top end bafang motor to one of these bosch plastic shiat pieces i own one myself a raleigh motus active line plus plus whatever its my second ebike from the industry the first one i had to buy a replacement motor as soon as it fell out of warranty and this what i have ive had the motor replaced twice under warranty despite being told by multiple industry experts (bike shop people) that bosch is the very high end gold standard of ebike technology and very reliable. Creak creak creak thats all im going to say. Pile of overpriced crap. Compare a bafang build where you can have a 2000w motor a DECENT battery and a decent bike hmm say it costs you 2 grand what do you get for 2 grand from your lovely mate in the bike shop? Some utter con like a lapiere or haibike held together by plastic and running on candle power with a mediocre battery. A relative asked me advice on ebikes having a bosch ebike myself i told him dont waste his time and money and make a proper investment. He just runs his on the lower settings we live in deeply undulating pennine terrain 250 watt does not cut it. We need 500watt like the canadians have as standard for ebikes i think 500 is perfectly acceptable anything above should be made easier and more straightforward to register. You say its too much for the gov to do paperwork wise but theres already a way to register them its just particularly cumbersome so its not a case of "it will be too much paperwork" there currently is too much paperwork and its all a bit of a mess we need to change the system so its more straightforward and clear.

Sorry can’t help you there - anything other than pedalling faster would void the warranty so not something we would recommend.

Cannondale UK took the decision to not bring any XL frames into the UK at all - I guess with the difficult trading in the industry at the moment they just felt the demand wasn’t there for the XL size and didn’t take the risk. We had to jump through a lot of hoops to get this one and only one into the country and I know we could have sold more so it is a shame, but understandable with the way 2024 went.

@@wecycle384 Ah ok and yet you can get XL in the SL1?

Yep. I guess at £4000 less, they knew they were more likely to be able to sell the minimum order quantity to make it worth bringing XL SL1 into the country.

Glad you think so!

And that is mostly carbon vs alu bars, likely better tires and sightly lighter wheels maybe (too lazy to check; maybe only Pro 0 has SLR1 wheels). Frameset weight difference is only in lighter fork, around 60g I reckon?

@OYeahan correct, the fork is marginally heavier. Wheels are heavier, carbon bars as well, but stems / bars honestly 4 out of 5 times you swap them out anyway

@@pipoann Good to know, thanks. I already own Aeolus Pro 51 wheelset I got to use with my gravel bike, so actually I'm considering Advanced 2. I don't race so not really need electronic shifting, and should I feel like getting one can always upgrade sometime...

@@OYeahan if you don’t race, just one piece of advice: this bike is really stiff and just not comfortable at speeds under 30-33 km/h but really comes alive at higher speeds (I am not the only one saying this). If you are looking to put out 200 watts for your 4 hour endurance ride this is not the bike for it - so perhaps test ride it first. I use the bike for fast training rides, group rides, and racing only.

Yes you can

Not going ride rim brakes at steep descents. Prices coming up, nothing we can do. Both new and old ORCA are nice. Don´t think you can make them much lighter, wheels can save 300-400g, tires and TPU tubes another 150-200, but not sure you can do much more without playing with components- those are really expensive:lighter cassette and chainrings

@@TheOkinawaBoy Agreed. The amount of money needed to go lighter would not be worth it. 18lbs complete with pedals, cages and mount for my size as with disc brakes is respectable weight. I've been riding since the 1980s, so I know better and don't get obsessed with counting grams other than wheelers.

@@lazyrider6918 Phew, I was racing in my childhood back in 80s on Start-Schossee, soviet steel bike, which was 13kg, but that was only option that time. Now I have choice and can afford any bike I want, but I'm also conscious too, so something at 7kg with electronic shift and disk brake will fit my needs. Second aspect seems to be very important in our days- visual attraction. Last year I did not like classic look of new Orca and like it so much. For weight saving I always have great sub 1kg wheels from LightBicycle. Other 45mm set is just 1420gr.

That’s my question as well.

Sorry, missed this question. No, I don't think you can get power shown on the screen. Annoying, especially for Roadies moving to an EMTB!