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hmm where's this week's episode?

gave up watching way to many interruptions!

I remember crying so Hard when B5 Blew Up (yes crappy CGI but not bad at the time) B5 is the most underrated TV show I think of all time!

Hey there, I'm listening from Russia. In our country during COVID it was exactly the same.

The episode where Delenn is “asking for forgiveness” is “Ship of Tears” not “In the Shadow of Z’ha’dum”.

Fun fact: Lyta was originally scripted to be the captured telepath in this episode, but the actress was unavailable.

I wonder if JMS refused to edit/refine the script and that made it feel a bit rough for Brent. I can see him being incredibly stubborn! I can't remember how I felt about this episode at the time, I've never felt like rewatching Crusade as far as I can remember as it is all set up for pay-offs I would never see! I have a felling that the changes in characters would have been more evident in subsequent episodes, though I guess that would be tough with how badly the order was monkeyed around with

Brent totally cheated and used 4 references in his recap. One of them was not buzzed.

As a proud Brit, your description of how you make tea is HORRIFIC! It sends about 6565 shivers down my spine! It sounds *almost* as bad as Crusade's what I'm laughingly going to call music. BTW IIRC The 'soul hunter guy' was played by W. Morgan Sheppard who has played MANY parts in many sci-fi shows, including a character called Blank Reg in the Max Headroom series. I think, in a slightly different timeline, Jeff could become Blank Jeff. (Max Headroom is another series I would love for you both to watch and comment on. Maybe as something of a palette cleanser? If you do, don't forget to look at the original UK pilot - made by Ch4 I think - that was then re-made by whichever US TV company took it on.) Anyway, W. Morgan Sheppard has a son (Mark?) who has also appeared in several Sci-fi shows, including one where he had a "very fine hat", was a lawyer with literally a cat in a bag, and both Sheppards played the same person during several episodes of Matt Smith's incarnation as The Doctor. And even though Matt Smith's Doctor had a liking of fish fingers and custard, I'm sure even he would be appalled by how Brent apparently makes Tea!

There’s more to be learned about the Apocalypse Box and the direction Crusade was going to take in unfilmed scripts, notes, and comments.

Lol. I have a pokeball deck holder like that!

I always thought him being the custodian of the box was what he was being forgiven for. It was forgiveness for something in the future. I'll never know 🙂

I always attributed Gideon's rise in rank to a) needing loyal captains quickly after the civil war, b) hush money? He was promoted to keep the Cerberus secret? c) he was only a deep space vessel captain until Sheridan wanted him personally. Remember Sinclair was a long way down the B5 command choice list.

RIP Tony Todd :(

I'm glad this is not the actual pilot. War Zone is much better.

Matheson joining Earthforce is akin to Kira Nerys joining Starfleet (*BUZZ*) She was a colonel in the Bajoran Militia so when they gave her a Starfleet commission she started with the rank of Captain. She was given credit for her experience in her other organisation. I would agree that Matheson likely got credit for his experience in PSI-Corps. I agree that Gideon raising from ensign to captain so quickly feels a bit off (but not as bad as cadet Kirk to captain in Star Trek (2009))

It would have been better if they had actually had Lyta be that telepath...which she was supposed to be.

This episode has it completely backward. Gailen does not need to seek forgiveness. He needs to forgive. He can only move forward by forgiving NOT being forgiven. The weird bubble boy alien does not have the power to forgive anyone regardless. Those that need to overcome their own guilt can not get it from some alien that has not been wronged and can't forgive on the behalf of others. Unless that bubble boy was God.

This was definitely a JMS episode. If you remember that both of JMS's degrees are in Psychology, then it is clear he is all in on the messages. One person can make a difference that can affect the whole universe. Do the right thing for the right reasons. Faith matters. Forgiveness is necessary...ect.

Could the entire Telapath War have been just a civil war among the Core and Blips?

Since the second time won't have predictions you should do a "do we remember what happens in the next episode" game instead.

A common theme with JMS: Forgiveness. I think what this alien offered them is the opportunity to forgive themselves, in a round-about way. Could it be that everyone has 65 reasons to want to forgive themselves for something?

65

59:01 if you wanna know more about Galen‘s backstory, and in fact, the backstory of the technomages, read the techno trilogy. It’s really good.

According to the B5 Encyclopedia: Matheson is a Human telepath rated P6 who longed to join Earthforce before his talent manifested itself. Matheson was raised Catholic before joining the Psi Corps, where he applied to intern with the Psi Cops, but did not pass the entrance examination. In the last days of the Telepath Crisis, Bruder assigned Matheson to administer sleepers to Alison, a captured leader of the Telepath Resistance. During their brief interaction, Alison convinced Matheson that the Corps was secretly executing members of the Resistance rather than incarcerating them. Matheson faked a sleeper injection, allowing Alison to signal the Resistance, precipitating an attack on the base. Matheson fled in advance of the battle. With the dissolution of Psi Corps, Matheson joined Earthforce, rising swiftly through the ranks. By 2267, Lieutenant Matheson served as Captain Matthew Gideon‘s executive officer aboard an Explorer-class vessel, where he helped put down a near mutiny led by Ensign James. Against political objections, Gideon had Matheson assigned to the Excalibur as executive officer. The telepath ably managed the day-to-day operations of the prototype ship, allowing Gideon to work on the edge, knowing his ship was safe. When the Excalibur took aboard a being that battened on forgiveness, it absolved Matheson of his guilt regarding his role in the climax of the Telepath Crisis. Matheson’s telepathy (or perhaps intuition) made him fear for the life of the Moradi fugitive Natchok Var and he later used projection to assist in the disarming of Durkani and Lyssa, later telling his captain that the two unidentified beings felt fear. These slips in absolute control were noted by Mr. Jones of the Bureau of Telepath Integration and he was prepared to order Matheson recalled for further questioning and training, but Gideon saw to it that the report did not reflect poorly on his officer. En route back to known space from the Well of Forever, Gideon arranged for Matheson to experience hyperspace for the first time. At Tarriff’s Colony, Matheson proved unable to open the telepathic vault discovered in the mines and his career was once again threatened when Alfred Bester-identified by Matheson, and in hiding on the colony-demanded passage aboard the Excalibur lest he implicate the younger telepath in his war crimes. Bester’s demands were met, leaving Matheson free to assist Gideon in his investigation of the Earthforce exploitation of Shadow technology that led to the commanding officer being shot on Mars. Extra-canonical Data (Info from script drafts, cut footage and production documents.) Matheson participated in the engagement with the Drakh on Savo 4, helping to repulse the attack. AT the battle's climax, he witnessed Dureena Nafeel's kidnapping by an unidentified ship he attempted to scan to no avail. To aid in locating Nafeel, Matheson communed with the Apocalypse Box, and was possessed by its contents, forming a techno-telepathic bond with the Excalibur to enhance the search.

Apparently, this episode would have seen the return of Lyra Alexander and Lanier also would’ve appeared, but not feature prominently. But the script was revised a couple of times, partially due to Patricia Tallman and willingness to reprise the role Lyra for one days work. Remember when Garibaldi asked Lyta what she was, and she basically told him she was a telepathic nuke? Well, in the scene where Matheson shuttle is leaving Syria Plainum, that’s Lyta in the background going **boom**.

Oh JMS knew exactly what the box was.

40:28 that’s exactly how Matheson’s story played out. He was in Earthforce, but his talents became active and he had to join Psi Corps, and after the Psi war, he joined Earthforce again.

“Path” was screened on TNT as the 4th installment of “Crusade” on Wednesday, 30 June 1999.

Even 65 blind men can see that JMS’s announcement has to be “Babylon 5 for the Second Time with Jeff, Brent, and Joe”.

There is a difference between healing through forgiveness and the type of transformative change that comes from what was experienced by G'Kar (Dust to Dust) and Londo (Very Long Night). The former brings comfort and acceptance with the past. The latter changes your life.

When done with crusade I highly recommend checking out the script readings of unfilled crusade scripts from the who are you B5 podcast as it fills in some info

During the discussion of the tears to enter and Mines of Moria I was surprised that Brett didn't bring up Dumbledore's entry into enter Voldemort's cave.

Regarding the rapid promotions. Those sometimes happen in times fo war. During the American Civil War George Custer was promoted to general at the age in 23 and less than two years later, in '65, was promoted to major general.

Haha, I have 3 of those snake-puzzle things at home.

I remember when I first saw any part of this series in its original run I saw Daniel Dae Kim & thought, "Oh cool! It's Daniel Dae Kim!" This whole time following this podcast I have tried to remember why it was that I got so excited back then, but I just can't. I guess I just don't put as much stock in forgiveness. It definitely has its place. I have forgiven my father for not being around growing up. I still don't talk to him, but that's just because neither of us are particularly good at keeping in touch w/ anyone. I went through a thing several years ago that seriously hit my confidence. It ratcheted up my already existing social anxiety issues to 11 (would you believe I've never seen SPinal Tap?). I hold two particular individuals at fault. I don't blame them. I think blame is a different thing. I also know there were things I could have & should have (my former therapist would say that is shame talking) done differently. I could never forgive these people. I had already lost vision in my left eye by then, but I was in a good place. I had good coverage. I was getting better. What they did cost me my job. I never really recovered from the medical derailment this caused. While in this too I have agency, I still hold them partly responsible for my now near total blindness. What they did was petty as all hell, & it helped cost me nearly everything. No forgiveness. At the samw time, I feel like I can say I don't live in that place. They do not matter to me at all. I no longer have fantasies of getting them back. If I were to run into them again it would be like I don't even know them. I would be able to just keep walking & go about my day. That might not be the best thing for everybody who finds themself in a place where they are holding on to that anger, but for me, I'm pretty happy w/ where I'm at in that regard.

Fair comment about being a contrived plot device, but that really doesn’t bother me. I expect JMS has a backstory for the alien in a bubble, but there’s no need for us to learn anything here. If you’re hungry for character backgrounds you love this episode and it doesn’t feel slow, if not, then feeling fidgety is understandable. If Crusade had continued I don’t expect this episode would have remained my favorite for too long, but as it is getting to learn a lot about what makes these characters tick is satisfying, especially when it includes important facts about the Telepath War. FYI, I learned only in recent years that in the original script, two B5 regular cast were going appear in Mathison’s story but were written out due to difficulty getting the actors sign on for it.

Gideon and Matheson end in a state in which their encounter with the alien left them in a note relaxed state. Both of them understand which strengthens their bond. They further return the globe because they understand that other will need it. Galen continues to go at 120 miles an hour. I think that is enough for one episode - more was supposed to come.

I'd thought this one would resonate with Brent given his past comments of forgiveness purging the poison you carry. For Gideon, Matheson and Galen, the people who could grant them closure are dead. The alien serves a useful function of listening to their pain and confirming that their actions are forgivable. The dead can't speak but the alien serves as an outlet to siphon the poison. Though in Galen's case he was not willing or ready to accept the release of his poison. I don't have a good track record in predicting episodes Brent will like. Oh well, maybe a future episode or movie will be more enjoyable for him.

Bureau 13 was not JMS' idea. The apocalypse box certainly was and he had specific plans for it (it was literally a mystery box but he knew what's inside).

If you guys need a new name for the show, I suggest "Sci-Fi Messages... Not a Star Trek Podcast!"

I love to hear you guys talk about family reunions!

My take on, "Does it matter where forgiveness cones from?", is absolutely. It matters why, and from whom, you are seeking some form of redemption. If you are a generslly good person then it frees you of things that hold you back, such as guilt. If you are a horrible person, then such absolution of a sense of guilt just grants permission to repeat those evil acts, possibly while no longer feeling any guilt for it at all, because their relief of guilt becomes, for them, a sense of, "I was not wrong to do this, snd have been given permission to continue to do so."

Brent's main criticism seems to be due to the running order change.

65

2 things: In the segments with Gidon, we learn a lot: how he met Galen, that there is dangerous shadow tech out there (who is behind it? This would have been a big part of the rest of season 1), what the mysterious box is, that it posses you and manipulates you with lies, that it probably helped Gideon in the past to get quicker to the position he is in now (it gives you an edge), that you cannot part from the box or otherwise die, that he didn‘t really „win“ the Apocalypse Box but rather the owner wanted to be free and get rid of it, maybe also why Gideon such a successful gambler having the box helping him? The Matheson segment was much longer and he wasn‘t supposed to flip so quickly, but it was cut for length of the episode. So he was the one who betrayed the Psi Corps and thus the telepath war ended. And of course he feels guilty for all the people that died because of his decision. It was surprising to me, that there was something so dark in his past.

You guys really don‘t like Eillerson, LOL. I always saw him like G‘Kar… he would have been the character to change over the course of the show to the better, from being totally annoying to make us like hom a lot. You just have to start with the annoying part to have the potential for change.

I do agree with Brent, it's a slow episode; having the creature completely silent and subtitled doesn't help IMO. As discussed, it did feel likes an episode that'd be really significant had Crusade run it's 5 year arc. It's also a pity they couldn't get Patricia Tallman to return as Lyta to be the telepath that gets Matheson to defect. Another possibility regarding Matheson's fast promotion; maybe his promotion is based partly on his time in the Corps and some post telepath war positive promotion with Matheson as one of the posterboys for the new Metasensory Authority. 65 I hope the Mass Effect series is good but it's being written by the person behind Fast & Furious 9 (the one with the car in space...) so alarm bells are already starting up.

🤣 told ya this episode is the TKO of crusade. Jeff drooling on this episode while a good majority thought this episode could have been done without 🤣

We know what the apocalypse box was going to do in the show, and JMS had plans, big plans with it; it is important but he didn't want to give too much at this stage