What I love about this topic, on this channel, is seeing just how genuine David is about his feelings. You can tell that this is a tough one for him. But at the end of it, he shares a BEAUTIFUL testimony of faith and and hope that is just as genuine. Love ya, brother!
You can use faith all you want, but the truth is Joseph Smith lied about his polygamy. The truth is he used coercive tactics to lure, at least one, young woman into polygamy (read the Happiness Letter). The truth is Joseph wrote that his wife, Emma, would be destroyed if she didn’t obey him and accept polygamy. The truth…
@Harry Henderson did he write that about Emma... or did the Lord say it? And either way, it didn't happen, did it. Take your exmo talking points somewhere else and cry there, bro, I truly don't care.
@@DannyAGray I’m sure you believe the Lord said it… D&C 132 still exists for all to read and judge for themselves. Doesn’t look good for ol Joe Smith. 🤣
@Harry Henderson I think it looks just fine for him. But you exmos are always so butt hurt and wanting to take offense for other people, especially dead people. Don't you have anything better to do? It's Thanksgiving, man! Go be thankful that the Lord forgives and is still offering you time to unpinch your butt and pull your head out before it's too late.
No matter, how hard we try reasoning polygamy practice, some things simply don't line up. I just accept that they were people who didn't know better. Yes, it was messy and a big trial for many. I don't want to live in a bubble where prophet and apostles were perfect because the church was restored. They were not, but the beauty of Atonement doctrine is that it redeems them from their mistakes. And if they are with God after all the struggle, there is a hope for me and all of us too.
I think you make an excellent point! I feel like people forget that prophets and apostles are still people like us. They are still capable of making mistakes. Also, we have much more knowledge on polygamy and temple sealings then we did one-hundred eighty years ago.
If prophets and apostles can make mistakes, they’re susceptible to lying, or deceiving. Telling Emma Smith she’d be destroyed if she didn’t agree and go along with polygamy seems like a really big one.
@@bobble7636 , if you are a human being living on this planet there is always a chance you might lie. Even Peter lied when he rejected Christ three times while the Lord was crucified. Yet Jesus appointed him a prophet. The early Christian church also had many problems even before the apostasy. The only one who is perfect is God. What matters the most is the principle of eternal marriage is true. The Gospel principles are true. Polygamy is another story. Too many people believe in eternal polygamy because that was understanding in the early restored church. But what about free agency? That is another eternal principle and no man or woman will be forced into eternal marriage after this life against their free will. And if you ask people in church, most of them will tell you they would refuse to have plural wives in eternity, and they still will be fine, no one will deny them the celestial kingdom based on their refusal to have many wives or being one of many wives. We focus too much on the messy history of the church forgetting how messy was history of the prophets in the Bible. Maybe what we should learn is to forgive, let go and trust eternal principles that we have been taught.
@@bobble7636 how can we have more knowledge now than when it first came out? History doesn’t write itself in the future. And if you are meaning knowledge by revelation, why would Joseph smith, the project of God, the one who shall be alongside God and Jesus Christ himself to judge each of us in our judgement; not have all of the information on polygamy and temple Sealings? I don’t believe God to be someone to let us mortals try to figure out such sacred things by trial and error, but that’s just my thinking.
Wow thanks for addressing this topic. I think it's so interesting how people are so out to get joseph smith but they don't even bat an eye about what happened in biblical times that was very comparable... Such a strong spirit of opposition to the truth. I suppose that's what happens to all good things - Jesus himself was called a blasphemer and a host of other names. In the end - I have a hard time reconciling a lot of things relating to this subject (both biblical and church history wise because the two seem pretty consistent from my point of view) with my personal knowledge about God - but what I do know is my experience gaining a testimony of Jesus Christ and then gaining a testimony of Joseph Smith. It was an ancredible and undeniable moment for me - i'm grateful for that. Faith truly can work miracles and help you find the answers you seek. When it comes down to it - the answers i have gotten from God are so much more powerful then the questions I have gotten from man. In the end - i've made my decision on who I will trust in. And that is my Lrod and Savior Jesus Christ. He points a clear path and paints a clear way back to God - and I love him with all I have. He is the person I would like to turn to with all of these things - and when I have he always speaks peace. “Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid” (John 14:26-27).
My issue with polygamy is the Book of Mormon is against polygamy only if the lord allows the people to practice it to raise up seed. The book of commandments section 101 was clear about polygamy and then later was removed for the publication of doctrine and covenants. Fanny Alger was caught with Joseph in the barn when Emma saw them during intercourse. Joseph was practicing polygamy before section 132 and hiding it behind Emma’s back many were living in his house as maids. Joseph was sealed to more than 20 women before he was sealed to Emma. I don’t believe in polygamy. I respect Joseph but sin got the best of him. Ultimately polygamy led him to his death
Great video. A few thoughts: 1) In a world of "safe spaces" and "trigger warnings," THANK YOU for not coddling your viewers' minds! Sheltering from hard topics doesn't help anyone and I'm glad that both the institutional and lay sides of the Church are taking steps to fix that. 2) As a Christian and member of the Church, I believe we need to be honest that ALL religious history has some nasty corners and baffling blind spots. Why? Because God loves sinners and trusts them with His work as they strive to become better. Honestly, the "worst" parts of LDS history pale in comparison with the Old Testament. If God worked though those people, He certainly could work through the flawed people who helped restore His latter day Kingdom. If you and I had received the commandment to implement plural marriage, would we have done any better than did the Biblical patriarchs or the early Latter Day Saints? 3) Let's do a gut check on ourselves before we judge the dead who cannot speak for themselves anymore. One day, future generations may look back at our world, with all its "alternative lifestyles," and wonder the very same thing we now wonder about previous generations: "Were they insane? Why would they DO things like that?" We're not as righteous as we might like to think.
@@mikkifrompreston You mean the facsimiles, which take up less than two pages, don’t explain the Book of Abraham? You don’t say lol. Thoughtful LDS believers concluded this long before you started parroting anti-Mormon rumors. The historical record shows the Book of Abraham came from a very long scroll,which likely burned in a Chicago fire. The facsimiles were purchased with the scroll. There is a tradition of Hebrew writings correcting stories that pagans borrowed from and embellished, of prophets and other Israeli national heroes. The Book of Abraham was used to correct parts of the story recognized in the pagan facsimiles.
@@towardcivicliteracy …actually the long scroll theory has been proved wrong many times and has no evidence to stand on. Dr. Ritner from the University of Chicago has shown this in amazing detail. They know how long these funeral texts were because so many of them have been discovered. This is how the Egyptologists knew that these writings were from the book of Hor. These were quite common apparently. So, we have many examples of the identical book of Hor scrolls accompanying a body that we can reference. But a more simplified answer would be, Joseph Smith commented on the facsimile in the text. He numbered the different sections and referred to them in the text. So it is without question that he did not in any way translate the these Egyptian scrolls. Yet in the introduction of the Book of Abraham he states that exactly, that he has translated this.
@@BGCflyer Joesph smith was seer. He was inspired the symbols which were copy’s of old Egyptian scrolls. Joesph did not translate the Book of Mormon word for word. He translated the word. The singular word. The will and mind of Christ. He is a prophet. Read the Book of Mormon all the way through. Pray to God. With honest intent towards God to prove or not it’s truthfulness. You will get a sure witness.
@@spitingMYverse …If Joseph Smith was inspired by the symbols, then that is revelation, not translation. Yet Joseph Smith said he translated. How was it possible for him to translate when he didn’t know the language? Well, that’s why he said he translated with the gift and power of God. The problem is, it still was incorrect information. The Book of Abraham is 100% proof he didn’t translate in any way. He also tried to translated the Kinderhook plates. The LDS church believed they were authentic until the 1980’s when carbon dating and other scientific methods, showed the Kinderhook plates were a forgery. In fact, Egyptologist unanimously agree that the writings on the Kinderhook plates are completely gibberish. So, he’s O for 2 here. Why would I believe that he actually translated the Golden plates? Coincidently, we don’t have them here to examine. BUT, we do have a small copy of the Book of Mormon writings that were presented to Dr. Anton. These also are shown to be complete fabrications and a mix of Hebrew, Egyptian, and scribbling. So, we can see the translations Joseph Smith did were not accurate at all. I know this may be a little harsh, I don’t mean to be brash, but these are the facts that are before us. I do pray. I pray for God’s wisdom to make right choices. I don’t pray to know if artifacts or books are true. James 1:5 If anyone lacks wisdom, let him ask of God. Throughout the Bible, wisdom is mention, especially in proverbs and the psalms. We are encouraged to pray for God’s wisdom, not early wisdom. If you keep reading the book of James, he goes through the different wisdoms and makes it clear that we should seek heavenly or Godly wisdom. So this whole thing to pray to know if it is true is completely taken out of context. I do feel your enthusiasm and I know you mean well. I wish you the best on your spiritual journey.
@@BGCflyer Your claims beg the question, and don't make sense. Dr. Ritner knows that the (all?) long scroll(s) described in LDS history was the Book of Hor because the Book of Hor is long? LOL Besides that obvious non sequiter, try backing up to a remotely reasonable hypothesis. For example, I'm just trying to understand how it is that you think Joseph Smith's revelations went down: JS: Oh, Lord God Almighty. We desire to know more about thy great prophet and patriarch Abraham. god: Nah, man. Imma teach you a dead language. Just 'cuz. You're on a much better track trying to understand why JS included the Book of Hor hypocephali (facsimiles), and how reasonably his interpretation of the symbols relates to the ancient culture and traditions about Abraham. To take the simplest example, it actually makes a lot of sense that Egyptians saw Abraham as a manifestation of Osiris. And, the Bible even seems to make use of this same connection between Abraham and the realm of the spirits of the dead (sheol or hades) when it describes sheol as the "bosom of Abraham." More insight: pearlofgreatpricecentral.org/abraham-and-osiris-facsimile-3-figure-1/
Yes they did. Why would God command this? The soft answer from the Church is, we don’t know. If you take the time to read all of the accounts of the women were were married to Joseph Smith, it is almost impossible to come away from this not feeling a bit strange and maybe even angry. After all, when I read the story of Abraham in Genesis, Sarah, not God, gives her maidservant to Abraham. God never gave a man another wife. Men took other wives if they had the power or ability, but God never does, at least not in the Bible. Plus, non of the prophets practice polyandry that I’m aware of in the Bible or the Book of Mormon. Maybe Jospeh Smith and the many prophets who followed him in polygamy and were sinning. If so, they should confess and repent. Don’t make an entire doctrine about it to justify your behavior only to have people later say, well, we just don’t know.
Love how you mentioned Brian Hales. I will echo that. If you are a Latter Day Saint I understand why you would be reluctant. Brother Hales and his wife are good standing LDS members and provide great information….
Laura Hales has unfortunately passed. Brian is a dedicated scholar and a faithful member. Through his scholarship on this topic, he is most expert and a trusted source. He's also completely real with nothing sugar-coated in his approach. I recommend his interviews on this channel.
God commanded plural marriage and I am not going to be ashamed of it. We don't do it now and that is fine. Do people today criticize polygyny in Islam? Are Muslims ashamed of it? No. Neither should we be.
Yes we literally criticize Muhammad for it, especially him marrying a 6 year old. So you're seriously justifying sin because others did it? Jesus explained just looking at another woman with lust is adultry. You can't give one scripture in the bible ever of God giving instructions to take a 2nd wife. I'll wait
Makes me really want to take a time machine to look for myself what really happened since there are so many pieces missing in the story. I have nothing bad to say about polygamy itself since modern world's practices are typically far more immoral and without commitment, but the question I would have is if normal sealings back then were interpreted as proxy sealings would be today? Like when Joseph was commanded to have plural marriage, did he and others mostly view it as a ordinance to help others receive celestial Glory or as a temporal marriage or both? If it was done in the awful manner many are accusing and have accused Joseph of doing, why did so many members stay faithful and remain in persecution? Surely they knew first hand the pressures and demands of the Church more than anyone today, especially those who leave the Church because of it. Again I'm very grateful for God to have introduced plural marriage if only for us to think more about how important marriage is today.
I am in full agreement with one of the other commenters. Plural marriage was a commandment. Reading anything more into it, trying to "justify" or "contextualize" a commandment is exactly the sort of behavior that Christ called out among the Pharisees. A commandment of God will be contextualized by God as we show obedience. Too many people get hung up on polygamy. It happened (I'm only four generations removed from pre-Manifesto polygamy) and imperfect people tried to apply it in their lives with varying success. If your Testimony is truly in Christ, then any "messiness" among imperfect people has already been remedied by the Atonement and any angst from a modern observer over what we think they might, or must, have been suffering is, honestly, empty virtue signalling. The commandment of polygamy was not, is not, will not be, the fundamental doctrine of the Gospel of Jesus Christ restored in these latter days by Joseph Smith Jr. Letting malicious people use it as a focus, or good people try and "understand" it takes attention away from "And now, after the many testimonies that have been given of Him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of Him. That He lives!"
I had a spiritual experience the other day, during that experience I got an answer about this topic (polyandry) and my answer referred me to a great and popular 😮example of polyandry in the Bible. This answer that I got it is so sacred. please, just think about that case of polyandry in the Bible.
Is there a video that addresses why Joseph might marry some extremely young women aka Nancy Winchester and Helen Mar Kimball? Or do you know of resources that address this?
I have studied both sides of joseph smith heavily and have come to the conclusion that it would make more sense for joseph smith to be a prophet than to be the luckiest and most intelligent man to ever exist. That is the conclusion you are bound to come to if you study hard enough. Good luck!
Wait, are there really only TWO possible choices? 1) That Joseph was a prophet or 2) that he was the luckiest and most intelligent man to ever exist? What about 3) both, or 4) neither?
Maybe ToolFan68 would say that Saints Unscripted probably doesn't give as much allowance to any other self-proclaimed prophet that institutes a program of having sex with his followers. (There are many.) "Jesus will fix it," makes us feel good (and may technically be true), but it's not exactly the way we deal with criminals, child molesters, murderers, rapists, etc., and it's certainly not a way to find truth. I don't think people who criticize Joseph for polygamy believe Jesus can't "fix it." All Christians believe Jesus can "fix it." I think their contention is that a man who claims to have spoken with God and who claims to be getting direct, specific revelations from God, also happens to be using that position of power for something so controversial that even he (Joseph) tried his darndest to cover up. This behavior, to most Christians, puts Joseph's position as prophet into question. It doesn't put Jesus' ability to "fix it" into question.
When you look at all the facts about Joseph smith and his wives, and just so much revolving around Joseph Smith, it becomes so completely convoluted, contradictory and does not add up. I had always had a testimony of the church and all parts of it, but for some reason I always something was off about Joseph Smith. I never thought to myself he isn’t a prophet or he is bad, but I always just had a strange feeling whenever I would hear or learn about him. To be honest I am surprised a lot of people on this channel and that research the history of the church honestly with themselves; are still active. Because so many things old and recently in the church don’t make sense with what they teach. I am figuring things out now but I still feel there are many truths in the church and that overall it is a very good thing, but I am at the point to where I’m not so sure anymore as far as it being the one and only true church anyway. I like the saying that you can only put so much on the shelf until it brakes. That’s where I’m at right now. So many people say, oh well this topic or fact doesn’t make sense but I know that it will all be made right in the end… With that type of reasoning one could make any religion or thing true and ordained of God. There has to be some form of rational reasoning happening to some degree, otherwise you could spend your whole life believing in Ron Hubbards Scientology or that Star Wars actually happened. I believe God to be a god of order, love and mercy. Why would God make celestial marriage so convoluted in Jospehs time with him marrying women who were already married and sealed, saying that you can only be sealed to one woman and then contradicting that himself. The list goes on and on. Especially with aspects that are crucial and so important, why would things change so much and be violated or contradicted?
Its obvious that is false., If Jesus didn't teach it, its false.... the biggest sign that its a cult, what the founder is doing with the woman. Just like islams prophet Muhammad, he started sleeping with a lot of woman. Jesus said if you look at another woman its adultry, he would never command polygamy for ANY REASON
@@gordianknot9595 his only wife with whom he had sexual relations, I believe. The rest could have been sealed in some sense, but not as wives. Those who said they were wives lied under duress.
@@gordianknot9595 my belief is that there may have been a concept of sealing people (men, women, children) together into the family of Christ (House of Israel, Church of the Firstborn, etc.) taught by JS, but this was never plural marriage. My belief, in line with the original section 101 in the D&C before Brigham Young removed it following Joseph’s death, is that the only order of marriage in the church was monogamy. All teachings on “celestial plural marriage” or polygamy were peddled by a secret combination in the church that sought to overthrow Joseph and Hyrum and usurp power. I don’t believe the true working of God were ever done “in secret” or “in the dark”. Polygamy is a sham. D&C 132 is a forgery.
I don't believe that Joseph had more than one wife. Go check it out on Hemlocknots channel. Think about it. There are no decendants of his other than by Emma, he swore he did not practice it, the Book of Mormon said it was evil. Keeping these things in mind if he really did then he is nothing but a liar so the church would be a lie and not a true church.
I’m not trying to be a hater or anything but can you make a video going deeper into why men can be sealed to multiple women but women can only be sealed to one man? In my head, I’ve really been struggling to make that make sense.
Women can be sealed to multiple men. When doing proxy work both men and women are to be sealed to every lawful spouse they had in life. Obviously, somethings will be sorted out in the next life.
Joseph Smith never had children by any woman but Emma. Brigham Young had children by many women. Brigham Young is heralded as a prophet---I have never understood why Joseph Smith wouldn't be a prophet if he were a polygamist. And, not to be gross, but plenty of teenagers are sexually active in our world but people don't mind because those kids aren't getting 'married'. People who have an issue with 14 year olds getting married let me remind you...different times different rules. My own grandma tried to get married at 15 but her parents made her wait a year until she was 16. That was in the 20th century too. Even Laura Ingalls Wilder's Little House books mention girls getting married at 13 and 14.
Regarding Mary Heron Snider: You may want to consider elaborating on that relationship/comment. Specifically, the comment from Joesph E. Johnson (i.e. that Mary and J.S. were intimate) was made while he was at a church disciplinary meeting (oddly enough for adultery). In the meeting notes the record shows that Johnson makes no excuses for his behavior and fully admits fault/error. Further, there’s no recorded reaction or response from those in attendance regarding Johnson’s comment about J.S. and Mary. Accordingly, the context doesn’t make sense: how does someone at an adultery disciplinary hearing NOT defend his actions by stating that the church leader did the very same thing? Moreover, why would no one else at the meeting comment on his comment? To me, this shows a potential transcription error (or less likely a relationship did exist; if so, and because of the context, it was somehow not adulterous). See the following link from Brian Hales’ website for more information: josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/mary-heron/
What I love about this topic, on this channel, is seeing just how genuine David is about his feelings. You can tell that this is a tough one for him. But at the end of it, he shares a BEAUTIFUL testimony of faith and and hope that is just as genuine. Love ya, brother!
You can use faith all you want, but the truth is Joseph Smith lied about his polygamy. The truth is he used coercive tactics to lure, at least one, young woman into polygamy (read the Happiness Letter). The truth is Joseph wrote that his wife, Emma, would be destroyed if she didn’t obey him and accept polygamy.
The truth…
@Harry Henderson did he write that about Emma... or did the Lord say it? And either way, it didn't happen, did it.
Take your exmo talking points somewhere else and cry there, bro, I truly don't care.
@@DannyAGray I’m sure you believe the Lord said it…
D&C 132 still exists for all to read and judge for themselves. Doesn’t look good for ol Joe Smith. 🤣
@Harry Henderson I think it looks just fine for him. But you exmos are always so butt hurt and wanting to take offense for other people, especially dead people. Don't you have anything better to do? It's Thanksgiving, man! Go be thankful that the Lord forgives and is still offering you time to unpinch your butt and pull your head out before it's too late.
David, I love that you don’t shay away from our messy history. You explain it so well!
No matter, how hard we try reasoning polygamy practice, some things simply don't line up. I just accept that they were people who didn't know better. Yes, it was messy and a big trial for many. I don't want to live in a bubble where prophet and apostles were perfect because the church was restored. They were not, but the beauty of Atonement doctrine is that it redeems them from their mistakes. And if they are with God after all the struggle, there is a hope for me and all of us too.
I think you make an excellent point! I feel like people forget that prophets and apostles are still people like us. They are still capable of making mistakes. Also, we have much more knowledge on polygamy and temple sealings then we did one-hundred eighty years ago.
If prophets and apostles can make mistakes, they’re susceptible to lying, or deceiving. Telling Emma Smith she’d be destroyed if she didn’t agree and go along with polygamy seems like a really big one.
@@bobble7636 , if you are a human being living on this planet there is always a chance you might lie. Even Peter lied when he rejected Christ three times while the Lord was crucified. Yet Jesus appointed him a prophet. The early Christian church also had many problems even before the apostasy. The only one who is perfect is God. What matters the most is the principle of eternal marriage is true. The Gospel principles are true. Polygamy is another story. Too many people believe in eternal polygamy because that was understanding in the early restored church. But what about free agency? That is another eternal principle and no man or woman will be forced into eternal marriage after this life against their free will. And if you ask people in church, most of them will tell you they would refuse to have plural wives in eternity, and they still will be fine, no one will deny them the celestial kingdom based on their refusal to have many wives or being one of many wives. We focus too much on the messy history of the church forgetting how messy was history of the prophets in the Bible. Maybe what we should learn is to forgive, let go and trust eternal principles that we have been taught.
@@bobble7636 how can we have more knowledge now than when it first came out? History doesn’t write itself in the future. And if you are meaning knowledge by revelation, why would Joseph smith, the project of God, the one who shall be alongside God and Jesus Christ himself to judge each of us in our judgement; not have all of the information on polygamy and temple Sealings? I don’t believe God to be someone to let us mortals try to figure out such sacred things by trial and error, but that’s just my thinking.
Q
You never take credit for anything good you say but you clarify and make a lot of sense. Thank you.
Wow thanks for addressing this topic. I think it's so interesting how people are so out to get joseph smith but they don't even bat an eye about what happened in biblical times that was very comparable... Such a strong spirit of opposition to the truth. I suppose that's what happens to all good things - Jesus himself was called a blasphemer and a host of other names. In the end - I have a hard time reconciling a lot of things relating to this subject (both biblical and church history wise because the two seem pretty consistent from my point of view) with my personal knowledge about God - but what I do know is my experience gaining a testimony of Jesus Christ and then gaining a testimony of Joseph Smith. It was an ancredible and undeniable moment for me - i'm grateful for that. Faith truly can work miracles and help you find the answers you seek. When it comes down to it - the answers i have gotten from God are so much more powerful then the questions I have gotten from man. In the end - i've made my decision on who I will trust in. And that is my Lrod and Savior Jesus Christ. He points a clear path and paints a clear way back to God - and I love him with all I have. He is the person I would like to turn to with all of these things - and when I have he always speaks peace. “Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid” (John 14:26-27).
That final comment in the video is the key to the whole thing
David: Your articles are excellent. Keep up the good work. Jesus will fix it all…
God Bless …
My issue with polygamy is the Book of Mormon is against polygamy only if the lord allows the people to practice it to raise up seed. The book of commandments section 101 was clear about polygamy and then later was removed for the publication of doctrine and covenants. Fanny Alger was caught with Joseph in the barn when Emma saw them during intercourse. Joseph was practicing polygamy before section 132 and hiding it behind Emma’s back many were living in his house as maids. Joseph was sealed to more than 20 women before he was sealed to Emma. I don’t believe in polygamy. I respect Joseph but sin got the best of him. Ultimately polygamy led him to his death
He was a true prophet and an alpha male. A cuckold at that time even wanted his wife to marry Joseph.
Great video. A few thoughts:
1) In a world of "safe spaces" and "trigger warnings," THANK YOU for not coddling your viewers' minds! Sheltering from hard topics doesn't help anyone and I'm glad that both the institutional and lay sides of the Church are taking steps to fix that.
2) As a Christian and member of the Church, I believe we need to be honest that ALL religious history has some nasty corners and baffling blind spots. Why? Because God loves sinners and trusts them with His work as they strive to become better. Honestly, the "worst" parts of LDS history pale in comparison with the Old Testament. If God worked though those people, He certainly could work through the flawed people who helped restore His latter day Kingdom. If you and I had received the commandment to implement plural marriage, would we have done any better than did the Biblical patriarchs or the early Latter Day Saints?
3) Let's do a gut check on ourselves before we judge the dead who cannot speak for themselves anymore. One day, future generations may look back at our world, with all its "alternative lifestyles," and wonder the very same thing we now wonder about previous generations: "Were they insane? Why would they DO things like that?" We're not as righteous as we might like to think.
@@mikkifrompreston You mean the facsimiles, which take up less than two pages, don’t explain the Book of Abraham? You don’t say lol.
Thoughtful LDS believers concluded this long before you started parroting anti-Mormon rumors. The historical record shows the Book of Abraham came from a very long scroll,which likely burned in a Chicago fire. The facsimiles were purchased with the scroll.
There is a tradition of Hebrew writings correcting stories that pagans borrowed from and embellished, of prophets and other Israeli national heroes. The Book of Abraham was used to correct parts of the story recognized in the pagan facsimiles.
@@towardcivicliteracy …actually the long scroll theory has been proved wrong many times and has no evidence to stand on. Dr. Ritner from the University of Chicago has shown this in amazing detail. They know how long these funeral texts were because so many of them have been discovered. This is how the Egyptologists knew that these writings were from the book of Hor. These were quite common apparently. So, we have many examples of the identical book of Hor scrolls accompanying a body that we can reference. But a more simplified answer would be, Joseph Smith commented on the facsimile in the text. He numbered the different sections and referred to them in the text. So it is without question that he did not in any way translate the these Egyptian scrolls. Yet in the introduction of the Book of Abraham he states that exactly, that he has translated this.
@@BGCflyer Joesph smith was seer. He was inspired the symbols which were copy’s of old Egyptian scrolls. Joesph did not translate the Book of Mormon word for word. He translated the word. The singular word. The will and mind of Christ. He is a prophet. Read the Book of Mormon all the way through. Pray to God. With honest intent towards God to prove or not it’s truthfulness. You will get a sure witness.
@@spitingMYverse …If Joseph Smith was inspired by the symbols, then that is revelation, not translation. Yet Joseph Smith said he translated. How was it possible for him to translate when he didn’t know the language? Well, that’s why he said he translated with the gift and power of God. The problem is, it still was incorrect information. The Book of Abraham is 100% proof he didn’t translate in any way. He also tried to translated the Kinderhook plates. The LDS church believed they were authentic until the 1980’s when carbon dating and other scientific methods, showed the Kinderhook plates were a forgery. In fact, Egyptologist unanimously agree that the writings on the Kinderhook plates are completely gibberish. So, he’s O for 2 here. Why would I believe that he actually translated the Golden plates? Coincidently, we don’t have them here to examine. BUT, we do have a small copy of the Book of Mormon writings that were presented to Dr. Anton. These also are shown to be complete fabrications and a mix of Hebrew, Egyptian, and scribbling. So, we can see the translations Joseph Smith did were not accurate at all. I know this may be a little harsh, I don’t mean to be brash, but these are the facts that are before us. I do pray. I pray for God’s wisdom to make right choices. I don’t pray to know if artifacts or books are true. James 1:5 If anyone lacks wisdom, let him ask of God. Throughout the Bible, wisdom is mention, especially in proverbs and the psalms. We are encouraged to pray for God’s wisdom, not early wisdom. If you keep reading the book of James, he goes through the different wisdoms and makes it clear that we should seek heavenly or Godly wisdom. So this whole thing to pray to know if it is true is completely taken out of context. I do feel your enthusiasm and I know you mean well. I wish you the best on your spiritual journey.
@@BGCflyer Your claims beg the question, and don't make sense. Dr. Ritner knows that the (all?) long scroll(s) described in LDS history was the Book of Hor because the Book of Hor is long? LOL
Besides that obvious non sequiter, try backing up to a remotely reasonable hypothesis. For example, I'm just trying to understand how it is that you think Joseph Smith's revelations went down:
JS: Oh, Lord God Almighty. We desire to know more about thy great prophet and patriarch Abraham.
god: Nah, man. Imma teach you a dead language. Just 'cuz.
You're on a much better track trying to understand why JS included the Book of Hor hypocephali (facsimiles), and how reasonably his interpretation of the symbols relates to the ancient culture and traditions about Abraham. To take the simplest example, it actually makes a lot of sense that Egyptians saw Abraham as a manifestation of Osiris. And, the Bible even seems to make use of this same connection between Abraham and the realm of the spirits of the dead (sheol or hades) when it describes sheol as the "bosom of Abraham."
More insight: pearlofgreatpricecentral.org/abraham-and-osiris-facsimile-3-figure-1/
Yes they did. Why would God command this? The soft answer from the Church is, we don’t know. If you take the time to read all of the accounts of the women were were married to Joseph Smith, it is almost impossible to come away from this not feeling a bit strange and maybe even angry. After all, when I read the story of Abraham in Genesis, Sarah, not God, gives her maidservant to Abraham. God never gave a man another wife. Men took other wives if they had the power or ability, but God never does, at least not in the Bible. Plus, non of the prophets practice polyandry that I’m aware of in the Bible or the Book of Mormon. Maybe Jospeh Smith and the many prophets who followed him in polygamy and were sinning. If so, they should confess and repent. Don’t make an entire doctrine about it to justify your behavior only to have people later say, well, we just don’t know.
I agree
Love how you mentioned Brian Hales. I will echo that. If you are a Latter Day Saint I understand why you would be reluctant. Brother Hales and his wife are good standing LDS members and provide great information….
Laura Hales has unfortunately passed. Brian is a dedicated scholar and a faithful member. Through his scholarship on this topic, he is most expert and a trusted source. He's also completely real with nothing sugar-coated in his approach. I recommend his interviews on this channel.
Thanks David, an awesome presentation -
Thank for the clarification and the resources to look at 👍🏼
Another fantastic video; thank you!
God commanded plural marriage and I am not going to be ashamed of it. We don't do it now and that is fine. Do people today criticize polygyny in Islam? Are Muslims ashamed of it? No. Neither should we be.
Yes we literally criticize Muhammad for it, especially him marrying a 6 year old.
So you're seriously justifying sin because others did it?
Jesus explained just looking at another woman with lust is adultry. You can't give one scripture in the bible ever of God giving instructions to take a 2nd wife.
I'll wait
Makes me really want to take a time machine to look for myself what really happened since there are so many pieces missing in the story. I have nothing bad to say about polygamy itself since modern world's practices are typically far more immoral and without commitment, but the question I would have is if normal sealings back then were interpreted as proxy sealings would be today? Like when Joseph was commanded to have plural marriage, did he and others mostly view it as a ordinance to help others receive celestial Glory or as a temporal marriage or both? If it was done in the awful manner many are accusing and have accused Joseph of doing, why did so many members stay faithful and remain in persecution? Surely they knew first hand the pressures and demands of the Church more than anyone today, especially those who leave the Church because of it. Again I'm very grateful for God to have introduced plural marriage if only for us to think more about how important marriage is today.
Thanks! Your work is appreciated!!
Amazing job!
If Joseph took someone else's wife, even if only for eternity; isn't that breaking the commandment not to Covet your neighbor's wife?
I am in full agreement with one of the other commenters. Plural marriage was a commandment. Reading anything more into it, trying to "justify" or "contextualize" a commandment is exactly the sort of behavior that Christ called out among the Pharisees. A commandment of God will be contextualized by God as we show obedience. Too many people get hung up on polygamy. It happened (I'm only four generations removed from pre-Manifesto polygamy) and imperfect people tried to apply it in their lives with varying success. If your Testimony is truly in Christ, then any "messiness" among imperfect people has already been remedied by the Atonement and any angst from a modern observer over what we think they might, or must, have been suffering is, honestly, empty virtue signalling. The commandment of polygamy was not, is not, will not be, the fundamental doctrine of the Gospel of Jesus Christ restored in these latter days by Joseph Smith Jr. Letting malicious people use it as a focus, or good people try and "understand" it takes attention away from "And now, after the many testimonies that have been given of Him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of Him. That He lives!"
I had a spiritual experience the other day, during that experience I got an answer about this topic (polyandry) and my answer referred me to a great and popular 😮example of polyandry in the Bible. This answer that I got it is so sacred. please, just think about that case of polyandry in the Bible.
Is there a video that addresses why Joseph might marry some extremely young women aka Nancy Winchester and Helen Mar Kimball? Or do you know of resources that address this?
David made videos on those topics.
Polygamy was great for many people. If you ask those taking part, they were not regretful. Shouldn’t we respect their wishes in the proper context?
I have studied both sides of joseph smith heavily and have come to the conclusion that it would make more sense for joseph smith to be a prophet than to be the luckiest and most intelligent man to ever exist. That is the conclusion you are bound to come to if you study hard enough. Good luck!
May I ask, what are those studies? What are your sources?
Wait, are there really only TWO possible choices? 1) That Joseph was a prophet or 2) that he was the luckiest and most intelligent man to ever exist? What about 3) both, or 4) neither?
Well that was an apologist fluff piece if I’ve ever seen one. 😂
Where's the fluff?
Maybe ToolFan68 would say that Saints Unscripted probably doesn't give as much allowance to any other self-proclaimed prophet that institutes a program of having sex with his followers. (There are many.) "Jesus will fix it," makes us feel good (and may technically be true), but it's not exactly the way we deal with criminals, child molesters, murderers, rapists, etc., and it's certainly not a way to find truth. I don't think people who criticize Joseph for polygamy believe Jesus can't "fix it." All Christians believe Jesus can "fix it." I think their contention is that a man who claims to have spoken with God and who claims to be getting direct, specific revelations from God, also happens to be using that position of power for something so controversial that even he (Joseph) tried his darndest to cover up. This behavior, to most Christians, puts Joseph's position as prophet into question. It doesn't put Jesus' ability to "fix it" into question.
“Less than publicly forthright” is a funny way to say “unequivocally lied”
Did he speak out against plural marriage many times..
I love how neutral you are in these discussions. Room for all conclusions. That's fair.
I like the end. That Jesus can make everything right.
I think critics accuses the early Mormons of wife swapping, no?
When you look at all the facts about Joseph smith and his wives, and just so much revolving around Joseph Smith, it becomes so completely convoluted, contradictory and does not add up. I had always had a testimony of the church and all parts of it, but for some reason I always something was off about Joseph Smith. I never thought to myself he isn’t a prophet or he is bad, but I always just had a strange feeling whenever I would hear or learn about him.
To be honest I am surprised a lot of people on this channel and that research the history of the church honestly with themselves; are still active. Because so many things old and recently in the church don’t make sense with what they teach.
I am figuring things out now but I still feel there are many truths in the church and that overall it is a very good thing, but I am at the point to where I’m not so sure anymore as far as it being the one and only true church anyway.
I like the saying that you can only put so much on the shelf until it brakes. That’s where I’m at right now. So many people say, oh well this topic or fact doesn’t make sense but I know that it will all be made right in the end… With that type of reasoning one could make any religion or thing true and ordained of God. There has to be some form of rational reasoning happening to some degree, otherwise you could spend your whole life believing in Ron Hubbards Scientology or that Star Wars actually happened.
I believe God to be a god of order, love and mercy. Why would God make celestial marriage so convoluted in Jospehs time with him marrying women who were already married and sealed, saying that you can only be sealed to one woman and then contradicting that himself. The list goes on and on. Especially with aspects that are crucial and so important, why would things change so much and be violated or contradicted?
Its obvious that is false.,
If Jesus didn't teach it, its false.... the biggest sign that its a cult, what the founder is doing with the woman.
Just like islams prophet Muhammad, he started sleeping with a lot of woman.
Jesus said if you look at another woman its adultry, he would never command polygamy for ANY REASON
Yeah I came to my own conclusions. Polygamy is Brigham Young’s perverse doctrine that he pinned on Joseph dishonestly. Joseph’s only wife was Emma.
@@gordianknot9595 his only wife with whom he had sexual relations, I believe. The rest could have been sealed in some sense, but not as wives. Those who said they were wives lied under duress.
@@gordianknot9595 my belief is that there may have been a concept of sealing people (men, women, children) together into the family of Christ (House of Israel, Church of the Firstborn, etc.) taught by JS, but this was never plural marriage.
My belief, in line with the original section 101 in the D&C before Brigham Young removed it following Joseph’s death, is that the only order of marriage in the church was monogamy. All teachings on “celestial plural marriage” or polygamy were peddled by a secret combination in the church that sought to overthrow Joseph and Hyrum and usurp power.
I don’t believe the true working of God were ever done “in secret” or “in the dark”. Polygamy is a sham. D&C 132 is a forgery.
❤️
2:02 What would you consider to be unambiguous evidence indicating that Joseph treated these women as wives or sexual partners?
I don't believe that Joseph had more than one wife. Go check it out on Hemlocknots channel. Think about it. There are no decendants of his other than by Emma, he swore he did not practice it, the Book of Mormon said it was evil. Keeping these things in mind if he really did then he is nothing but a liar so the church would be a lie and not a true church.
He didn’t treat or saw them as “wives” but he still got sealed to them. Why? Because he was trying to have children born into the covenant.
I’m not trying to be a hater or anything but can you make a video going deeper into why men can be sealed to multiple women but women can only be sealed to one man? In my head, I’ve really been struggling to make that make sense.
Women can be sealed to multiple men. When doing proxy work both men and women are to be sealed to every lawful spouse they had in life. Obviously, somethings will be sorted out in the next life.
Joseph Smith never had children by any woman but Emma. Brigham Young had children by many women. Brigham Young is heralded as a prophet---I have never understood why Joseph Smith wouldn't be a prophet if he were a polygamist. And, not to be gross, but plenty of teenagers are sexually active in our world but people don't mind because those kids aren't getting 'married'. People who have an issue with 14 year olds getting married let me remind you...different times different rules. My own grandma tried to get married at 15 but her parents made her wait a year until she was 16. That was in the 20th century too. Even Laura Ingalls Wilder's Little House books mention girls getting married at 13 and 14.
LOL. This made unsubscribe
Im sealed to my parents and siblings. Does this mean Im sealed and married to them? The answer is no. Was Sealed and married to these other women?
Neither 👏🏼 Joseph 👏🏼 nor 👏🏼 Hyrum 👏🏼 nor 👏🏼 Emma 👏🏼 ever 👏🏼 taught, 👏🏼 condoned,👏🏼 or 👏🏼 practiced 👏🏼 polygamy 👏🏼
Eternity only marriages? The Holy Bible says there will be no marriage in heaven
Wow, the way you guys justify Joseph Smith’s sin and narcissism is simply astounding 🤦♀️
Polygamy is and never was ordained by the true God of the Holy Bible. This is JS own doing. Not biblical.
Pretty sure the Bible doesn't either strongly condemned or condoned it
You should not struggle with what the world is now deeming progressive and enlightened.
Regarding Mary Heron Snider:
You may want to consider elaborating on that relationship/comment. Specifically, the comment from Joesph E. Johnson (i.e. that Mary and J.S. were intimate) was made while he was at a church disciplinary meeting (oddly enough for adultery). In the meeting notes the record shows that Johnson makes no excuses for his behavior and fully admits fault/error. Further, there’s no recorded reaction or response from those in attendance regarding Johnson’s comment about J.S. and Mary. Accordingly, the context doesn’t make sense: how does someone at an adultery disciplinary hearing NOT defend his actions by stating that the church leader did the very same thing? Moreover, why would no one else at the meeting comment on his comment? To me, this shows a potential transcription error (or less likely a relationship did exist; if so, and because of the context, it was somehow not adulterous).
See the following link from Brian Hales’ website for more information:
josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/mary-heron/