When i read the book, i always thought clothilde is obsessive and overprotective mother to Varity, and that she doesnt want to live alone without her, but in the end she just feel lonely ...never thought about she fell in love with Varity. Really? Idk.
@@maryannm2876 i thought over-protective and lonely mother/woman as well. maybe the references to clotilhle being "strong" is some sort of lesbian reference. I certainly didn't see it like she does.
Your point about Poirot vs Marple is EXACTLY how I feel about them too: he has higher highs (and lower lows), she is more consistent. This has been one of my favourite videos during Mission Marple, love the discussion on the various issues raised by this novel 😊. I agree with everything. This definitely works best as the last Marple novel too, that final scene is lovely and wraps things up nicely.
It really, really does-- I wish I had left this to the very last of the reread, because I feel like Sleeping Murder will end up feeling somewhat anti-climatic
In common with the other late Marples, I remember this less for the plot than the difficulties of old age Christie evokes - though on the plus side, the very end of ‘Nemesis’ is adorable. Miss Marple is really going to have fun indulging in all sorts of little treats she couldn’t reasonably afford previously!
I'm 100% on board with the fact that this book has massive problems, not the least of which being the way sexual assault is dealt with. I think, however, that I'm either a bit more on the book's side or a bit more optimistic in what I think Christie was trying to do with Clothilde. I'm afraid I'm about to get long-winded for a youtube comment (sorry, not sorry) 1. Absolutely. Yes. The way the book speaks about sexual assault (or even consentual sexual activity) is pretty reprehensible. Especially in the light of the *still effing occurring* desire to "save" a young rapist's reputation. 2. I think that Christie is seriously complicating the nature vs. nurture element here though. We get all this talk about Michael being born crooked, which sounds like biology = destiny, but there is little attempt to tie Michael's faults to his difficult but charismatic father in the way that we get in a novel like Crooked House. Essentially I think the underlying idea is that some people *despite* both good genes and good upbringing cannot overcome some genetic quirk within them. Even though it's couched in "modern" language, at it's base, I think the idea that Chrisite is tapping into is the good old "fatal flaw" theory of tragic Shakespearean protagonists. I don't know how much difference that would really make to our understanding of Michael, but then again, I don't think the reader's perspective on Michael is actually very important to this novel. But the reason I make the (small) distinction is that I think that Christie may be portraying Clothilde as a product of her own environment. 3 SPOILER SECTION I think Clothilde's turn to murder is as much (if not more) a product of her environment than of her genetics. Christie is careful to establish all of the sisters as very different in personality and there is very little reference to them in terms of heredity. There is a problematic moment where Clothilde is described as though she would have liked to go to University, but she had to stay home to look after her parents and Anthea. This is problematic because someone else claims that Clothilde did, in fact, have some post-secondary education, but whatevs. I do definitely read her as a lesbian in (physical, sexual) love with Verity, but if her history was really one in which she has had to repress not only her sexuality, but a great deal of her personality to be a caregiver, I think the murderous impulse stems less from the fact that she is a lesbian than the fact that her last great hope for love has gone wrong in a way that is particularly painful. In that sense, I could see this murder as plausible psychologically regardless of gender. I am not sure that even if you accept this nuance, it would necessarily change the way you read Clothilde, but I'm all for opening possibilities. 4. Hey, if you actually read this, you deserve a cookie. LOL
Where's my cookie???? :D But yes, I think all very valid points... re: your spoiler section, I think all of that can be true and still my feeling stands-- it's an old trope to have lesbians turn murderous on their lovers or objects of their affections, so even if Christie is aiming for more nuanced motivation, the outcome is the same. Definitely not unique to her, but still something that irks this reader's sensibilities
@@bookslikewhoa Totally fair and valid reply. I haven't really come across many books with this murderous trope, so that affects my reading as well. For me, Nemesis wasn't the "oh here we go again" sort of pattern. Kind of like your reaction to The Big Four, I realize that objectively Nemesis has more holes than Swiss cheese and a LOT of problems. That said, it was one of my first Christie novels and I have very fond feelings connected to my memories of it. I've been through multiple re-reads, but there's still a glow around it for me. Thanks for your reply. Re: the cookie--what's your PO Box? :D
I got a bit behind.... I kind of quite liked this one although I agree with the problematic attitude towards sexual assault. I did read the relationship between Clothilde and Verity as more a mother/daughter thing - overprotective of the child she'd never had. Honestly I hadn't even thought of the idea of it being a romantic relationship until you said it but I can now see how it could be read that way. The repeated references to her never marrying or being the type that would kill her husband if she'd had one certainly point to that reading, but then also the reference to her giving up her own plans to look after her parents and sister would support the idea that she may have wanted to marry and have her own family but didn't get the opportunity.
Yeah, I think there's enough ambiguity that the reader can't say for sure one way or the other, but to my sensibilities, I was reading as a one-sided romance thwarted
totally dissagree with you about Clothilde being gay and loving the girl sexually. it doesn't read like that at all. i read it as a very insecure woman controlling a girl and scared of losing her, scared of being lonely.
But again it films well. A couple of really good BBC versions, Joan Hickson included but also a modern one is really good. So the lesser books can be done very well on film. Go figure!
I have never read the book, I had only seen the Joan Hickson adaptation from the 80's which I always really liked. Though I believe that adaptation deviates quite significantly from the novel. But from that viewing, I always saw Clotilde as an obsessive/possessive who saw Michael as never being worthy of her "adopted" daughter Verity. And so to stop Michael from corrupting and destroying Verity, she killed her, so that she would stay pure in her mind. The book on the other hand, sounds a bit darker and not well put together. Plus it does sound like some of Christie's other books, certain aspects haven't aged well.
I’ve been so inspired to pick up some Christie/general mystery books because of you! I went through a HUGE christie phase when I was in 8th grade but I’ve drifted pretty far from the mystery genre and I want to get back. I’ve forgotten how much I loved them ☺️
When i read the book, i always thought clothilde is obsessive and overprotective mother to Varity, and that she doesnt want to live alone without her, but in the end she just feel lonely ...never thought about she fell in love with Varity. Really? Idk.
yep, I didn't read the "gay rage" stuff.
totally agree. the gay idea never even crossed my mind once.
@@maryannm2876 i thought over-protective and lonely mother/woman as well. maybe the references to clotilhle being "strong" is some sort of lesbian reference. I certainly didn't see it like she does.
Your point about Poirot vs Marple is EXACTLY how I feel about them too: he has higher highs (and lower lows), she is more consistent.
This has been one of my favourite videos during Mission Marple, love the discussion on the various issues raised by this novel 😊. I agree with everything. This definitely works best as the last Marple novel too, that final scene is lovely and wraps things up nicely.
It really, really does-- I wish I had left this to the very last of the reread, because I feel like Sleeping Murder will end up feeling somewhat anti-climatic
In common with the other late Marples, I remember this less for the plot than the difficulties of old age Christie evokes - though on the plus side, the very end of ‘Nemesis’ is adorable. Miss Marple is really going to have fun indulging in all sorts of little treats she couldn’t reasonably afford previously!
So true-- it's a very happy place to leave good old Miss Marple. She has certainly earned her treats!
I'm 100% on board with the fact that this book has massive problems, not the least of which being the way sexual assault is dealt with. I think, however, that I'm either a bit more on the book's side or a bit more optimistic in what I think Christie was trying to do with Clothilde.
I'm afraid I'm about to get long-winded for a youtube comment (sorry, not sorry)
1. Absolutely. Yes. The way the book speaks about sexual assault (or even consentual sexual activity) is pretty reprehensible. Especially in the light of the *still effing occurring* desire to "save" a young rapist's reputation.
2. I think that Christie is seriously complicating the nature vs. nurture element here though. We get all this talk about Michael being born crooked, which sounds like biology = destiny, but there is little attempt to tie Michael's faults to his difficult but charismatic father in the way that we get in a novel like Crooked House. Essentially I think the underlying idea is that some people *despite* both good genes and good upbringing cannot overcome some genetic quirk within them. Even though it's couched in "modern" language, at it's base, I think the idea that Chrisite is tapping into is the good old "fatal flaw" theory of tragic Shakespearean protagonists. I don't know how much difference that would really make to our understanding of Michael, but then again, I don't think the reader's perspective on Michael is actually very important to this novel. But the reason I make the (small) distinction is that I think that Christie may be portraying Clothilde as a product of her own environment.
3 SPOILER SECTION
I think Clothilde's turn to murder is as much (if not more) a product of her environment than of her genetics. Christie is careful to establish all of the sisters as very different in personality and there is very little reference to them in terms of heredity. There is a problematic moment where Clothilde is described as though she would have liked to go to University, but she had to stay home to look after her parents and Anthea. This is problematic because someone else claims that Clothilde did, in fact, have some post-secondary education, but whatevs. I do definitely read her as a lesbian in (physical, sexual) love with Verity, but if her history was really one in which she has had to repress not only her sexuality, but a great deal of her personality to be a caregiver, I think the murderous impulse stems less from the fact that she is a lesbian than the fact that her last great hope for love has gone wrong in a way that is particularly painful. In that sense, I could see this murder as plausible psychologically regardless of gender. I am not sure that even if you accept this nuance, it would necessarily change the way you read Clothilde, but I'm all for opening possibilities.
4. Hey, if you actually read this, you deserve a cookie. LOL
Where's my cookie???? :D But yes, I think all very valid points... re: your spoiler section, I think all of that can be true and still my feeling stands-- it's an old trope to have lesbians turn murderous on their lovers or objects of their affections, so even if Christie is aiming for more nuanced motivation, the outcome is the same. Definitely not unique to her, but still something that irks this reader's sensibilities
@@bookslikewhoa Totally fair and valid reply. I haven't really come across many books with this murderous trope, so that affects my reading as well. For me, Nemesis wasn't the "oh here we go again" sort of pattern. Kind of like your reaction to The Big Four, I realize that objectively Nemesis has more holes than Swiss cheese and a LOT of problems. That said, it was one of my first Christie novels and I have very fond feelings connected to my memories of it. I've been through multiple re-reads, but there's still a glow around it for me. Thanks for your reply. Re: the cookie--what's your PO Box? :D
I got a bit behind.... I kind of quite liked this one although I agree with the problematic attitude towards sexual assault. I did read the relationship between Clothilde and Verity as more a mother/daughter thing - overprotective of the child she'd never had. Honestly I hadn't even thought of the idea of it being a romantic relationship until you said it but I can now see how it could be read that way. The repeated references to her never marrying or being the type that would kill her husband if she'd had one certainly point to that reading, but then also the reference to her giving up her own plans to look after her parents and sister would support the idea that she may have wanted to marry and have her own family but didn't get the opportunity.
Yeah, I think there's enough ambiguity that the reader can't say for sure one way or the other, but to my sensibilities, I was reading as a one-sided romance thwarted
totally dissagree with you about Clothilde being gay and loving the girl sexually. it doesn't read like that at all. i read it as a very insecure woman controlling a girl and scared of losing her, scared of being lonely.
I wish to go back and hear you talk spoilers about Poirot. Love that you include it in Mission Marple ☺
But again it films well. A couple of really good BBC versions, Joan Hickson included but also a modern one is really good. So the lesser books can be done very well on film. Go figure!
*raises hand* I actually kind of liked this one
Haha I'm sure you're not alone! I mean, I love The Big Four, so that's proof enough that every Christie novel has it's admirers :D
@@bookslikewhoa I was looking at my wishlist the other day and I haven't got to The Big Four yet! Soon :D
I have never read the book, I had only seen the Joan Hickson adaptation from the 80's which I always really liked. Though I believe that adaptation deviates quite significantly from the novel. But from that viewing, I always saw Clotilde as an obsessive/possessive who saw Michael as never being worthy of her "adopted" daughter Verity. And so to stop Michael from corrupting and destroying Verity, she killed her, so that she would stay pure in her mind. The book on the other hand, sounds a bit darker and not well put together. Plus it does sound like some of Christie's other books, certain aspects haven't aged well.
Haiii....i'm a fan of agatha christie's too...i found your video just now, and very happy someone talks about christie's books.
I’ve been so inspired to pick up some Christie/general mystery books because of you! I went through a HUGE christie phase when I was in 8th grade but I’ve drifted pretty far from the mystery genre and I want to get back. I’ve forgotten how much I loved them ☺️
Oh that's so lovely!! I hope you enjoy diving back into the joy that is Agatha
I agree: a really interesting premise and a shame she didn't write it a few decades earlier, because it could have been amazing.
Definitely impressive how many cool ideas she was still generating late in her life-- if only she could execute! :/
It's hard for me to enjoy the Marple books now, the sexism in them is just overwhelming.
Suban la película, en español, y dejen la habladera......Saludos.