Cocktails with a Curator: Vermeer's "Officer and Laughing Girl"

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 พ.ย. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 126

  • @solr07666
    @solr07666 4 ปีที่แล้ว +22

    Ms Ng, sitting by your NYC apt window, engaging your audience with your radiant smile, and glass in hand, echoes the very picture you so enthusiastically explain. A Vermeer domestic scene is a perfect subject to be discussed during Covid, with many of us sequestered at home wondering about the wider world outside our very own windows. Thank you. You’re a wonderful lecturer, indeed !
    Leslie Rosenberg, Teaneck, NJ

  • @nmattern
    @nmattern 4 ปีที่แล้ว +24

    The best. Don't know how I was so lucky to find these lectures, each one a treasure. Please keep them coming! We all love them, and the knowledgeable curators we get to meet with each week. Nancy Mattern, ABQ NM

  • @kathrynstephens1864
    @kathrynstephens1864 4 ปีที่แล้ว +11

    These lectures have become such a highlight in my week. I miss seeing the paintings in person but am enjoying the lectures which include so much history.

  • @christinemiles9077
    @christinemiles9077 4 ปีที่แล้ว +27

    Love this series. The Frick has done the best job ever sharing the context of paintings, collections, history. If and when COVID is gone, I hope you keep the series up. Christine Miles in Albany, NY

  • @gustavderkits8433
    @gustavderkits8433 4 ปีที่แล้ว +14

    Thank you for this presentation. The Vermeer are among the greatest treasures of the Frick. One aspect of Vermeer’s life you did not mention was the fact that the executor of his estate was Antoni van Leeuwenhoek, the great microscopist, who was a correspondent of the Royal Society and one of the great scientists of his age (and a Draper). That fact connects Vermeer to the larger world of scientific discovery which flourished in his time.

  • @brooksjewell7948
    @brooksjewell7948 4 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    This was such a wonderful talk on Vermeer. He is one of my favorite artists and this was not only informational, but so thoughtful and inspiring to see Ms. Ng's obvious knowledge but also love of his work.

  • @expate1
    @expate1 4 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    Much gratitude to The Frick and Ms. Ng for easing our journey through the pandemic and providing insight into the beauty and all-encompassing impressions that art provides us in these divisive times.

  • @AmandaBeeRekendwith
    @AmandaBeeRekendwith 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Curator Aimee Ng, you are a joy to listen to. Your passion is evident and you convey your knowledge in a compelling story that makes me want to listen to more. Well done, and thanks.

  • @maryannbracken8579
    @maryannbracken8579 4 ปีที่แล้ว +13

    I enjoy the history of the weekly cocktail, which adds another dimension to these wonderful lectures. Thank you for each week.
    Maryann Bracken, Guilford CT

  • @Mrrossj01
    @Mrrossj01 4 ปีที่แล้ว +36

    I adore these lectures. I cannot express my gratitude and appreciation for your efforts. PS - And I don’t imbibe. Sincerely, James Ross

  • @Amc933
    @Amc933 4 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Thank you for this! Aimee, you rock and Vermeer is the best...

  • @lucanardecchia2859
    @lucanardecchia2859 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Thank you Aimee!!! Vermeer is one of our favourite painters. We have been to the Frick to see his paintings, but then we have so much appreciated the visit to this extraordinary museum...Thank you again for your lesson.

  • @Leebearify
    @Leebearify 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I agree, these are the very best lectures. Thank you so very much to Aimee and the Frick, you are so good at telling the stories I honestly can't wait until Fridays to see the new ones.

  • @dangvy7022
    @dangvy7022 4 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    These lectures are AWESOME. There are no words that can describe my gratitude for your efforts into researching and presenting the content in such a friendly, comprehensive, relatable way. Many many thanks. Sincerely wishing you the stamina to keep doing this for a long time.

  • @sandralevine4375
    @sandralevine4375 4 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    What a pleasure to spend time with a glorious painting and a most excellent curator who talks not only about the art, but the period during which it was created. Thank you for this new and important contribution to my enjoyment of this work.

  • @antonellab.8813
    @antonellab.8813 4 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    I love these lectures. I follow you from Italy. It's a real pleasure to watch your videos. Dr. Salomon and Dr. Ng are so passionate and engaging. Thank you!

  • @janlivingston9839
    @janlivingston9839 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    With all my heart, I thank the Frick for the gift of these radiant, enlightening, and entertaining talks.🌻🌷🌼🌷

  • @donnamariedesantis2102
    @donnamariedesantis2102 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Thank you so much for these episodes. The Frick Museum is one of my favorite places to visit when I am in New York. Seeing "Officer and Laughing Girl" felt like seeing an old friend today. Thank you for this wonderful presentation.

  • @victoriamilonas1942
    @victoriamilonas1942 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Ms Eng's gift is in gathering the threads of relevance - the beaver, the maps, the Egyptian lapis, those 15 children! Then looped it all back to the tiny but tough cocktail. Brilliant.

  • @michaelhealy1590
    @michaelhealy1590 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Wonderful lecture. All of the curators are first class! Thank you. I love learning about the various artworks and offer a toast to those making these lectures possible

  • @gillianpeebles9519
    @gillianpeebles9519 4 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Thank you Aimée, You pulled off the challenge of talking about such an iconic artist brilliantly. Both you and Xavier have the gift of giving your audience the benefit of a wealth of fascinating knowledge and passing on your enthusiasm in a highly effective and entertaining way. Numbers having watched this “Cocktails..” currently stand at 8,899 but I felt as though you were taking only to me.

  • @gabrielagurgui9026
    @gabrielagurgui9026 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I enjoy every Friday presentation. Each line of presentation is so well prepared and full of inside, knowledge and humor. I am so grateful for this magnificent evenings.I love it.
    Thank you, Gabriela from NY.

  • @johnirelan1914
    @johnirelan1914 4 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Cocktails with the curator provides us with a wonderful escape from our CV19 confinement
    with or without a cocktail in hand. Keep it up...The Frick has an abundance of paintings that tell many more stories! Thank you!
    JPI

  • @davidmasello2035
    @davidmasello2035 4 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Ms. Ng is completely engaging, as both a scholar and as a citizen of our city. She really knows how to engage an audience, and I thank her for that....

  • @melitathorpe8982
    @melitathorpe8982 4 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    It wouldn't be Friday if we didn't have Cocktails with the amazing Curators at the Frick. Thank you for enlightening our limited knowledge of art.

  • @magicjoeblack5761
    @magicjoeblack5761 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Fabulous, educational and entertaining in full and equal measure. Cheers!

  • @ldh343
    @ldh343 4 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Thank you so much, Aimee and the Frick, for this very interesting and informative presentation.

  • @annmariethomas9968
    @annmariethomas9968 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    These lectures are fantastic. The drinks are a clever and fun addition. Thanks to The Wall Street Journal for making me aware of this series.

  • @herbwhite7011
    @herbwhite7011 4 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    My wife & I really enjoy these lectures. Herb & Dawn White - Tappahannock, VA

  • @joanwalters4741
    @joanwalters4741 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    What an absolutely delightful lecture!! Merci, again and again👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

  • @lorettabertoli3736
    @lorettabertoli3736 4 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Beautiful video, I love vermeer 😍! I saw the same exhibition of masterpieces from the mauritshuis here in Italy, Bologna to be precise, it was amazing 😍. Good weekend everyone 🤗

  • @dawnjackson1802
    @dawnjackson1802 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    You give a world class presentation. Thank you! 🇨🇦

  • @guey-meihsu1188
    @guey-meihsu1188 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    I love Vermeer and this episode is well produced with elaborate depiction of the lighting, the history, and the background knowledge in the painting. Thank you very much again!

  • @irenelofstrom1270
    @irenelofstrom1270 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Thank you so much for this series. I so look forward to it every week.

  • @jimmy155
    @jimmy155 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    High Pleasure is this. Nicely done Dr Ng.
    Thank you

  • @susanmuntzing513
    @susanmuntzing513 4 ปีที่แล้ว +11

    A highlight of my week!

  • @barbarajohnson1442
    @barbarajohnson1442 4 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    What an incredibly insightful tribute to Vermeer, and the fragility to economic turns and whims of cultural trends an artist faces. I love your perspective on his wife ( women hold up.half the sky!)..and in this she seems eager to support the venture of his painted portrayals of the roots of daily life. Thank you so much for this gift of analysis adding so much more to the beauty of his vision.

  • @irenevayser4974
    @irenevayser4974 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you! Wonderful lecture, hoping one day to see Vermeer paintings in person

  • @kfrick0606
    @kfrick0606 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I love these lectures also! Thank you Frick Collection for bringing this to my pandemic seclusion.

  • @NEntv58
    @NEntv58 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    He probably didn't think about it at all. But you knew that. Loved the lecture. Thank you.

  • @DeleynGunter
    @DeleynGunter 4 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Incredible, I am a dutch speaking Belgian (Belgium is a neighbouring country located south of the Netherlands) and I didn't know that story about gin and jenever, nor that a 'Kopstootje' was a beer with jenever. Cheers.

  • @capecoddreamer42
    @capecoddreamer42 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you for these wonderful weekly gems! I hope they will continue even post-COVID. So interesting and I learn something new each time, I particularly like Aimee’s insight and perspective about the female portrayed in this piece. I can’t wait to return to the Frick in person. - Elaine Willey, NJ

  • @josephkeyes447
    @josephkeyes447 4 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    Looking forward to this series. The Frick House was one of my destination galleries while an art student in the 1970's

  • @timwalsh6476
    @timwalsh6476 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Expressing thanks for this excellent series. All so very well done. Best, L. Jorgensen -Walsh

  • @yunheekwon3565
    @yunheekwon3565 4 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Thank you Aimee. I really love to hear your explanation on Frick collection. It gives me power and joy to follow my dream and try more. -two daughter mom, once studied art history and plans to write a book on art, in Korea. Cheers!

  • @denisedenis2907
    @denisedenis2907 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    A late catch up but so glad I did! What an insightful presentation. Thank you.

  • @dweeb99
    @dweeb99 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Thank you, Ms Ng. You helped explain the poignant discomfort - not quite sadness - I always feel when I look at this painting. Plus, I had always wondered why the blue sections of the map didn't correspond to the watery areas of Holland. For the time being, Dutch Courage to us all!

    • @barbarajohnson1442
      @barbarajohnson1442 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Yes! The fugitive yellow! I must think on your discomfort...not quite sadness with the painting. I wonder if it is because the soldier is the repoussoir, device framing the space. Very interesting.

  • @carolm9819
    @carolm9819 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great series and particularly enjoying Aimee’s episodes!

  • @actan318
    @actan318 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Thank you! This is a wonderful lecture. Learned so much. Seattle, WA.

  • @Weesperbuurt
    @Weesperbuurt 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I found all the connections interesting and thought provoking. Thank you.

  • @suek3898
    @suek3898 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Wonderful talk on another NYC treasure. Thank you.

  • @Fyshhooks
    @Fyshhooks 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Group members at the Facebook group Music & Art Odyssey are very much enjoying and appreciating these and all videos from The Frick. Thank you. Sincerely, Barbara Fysh.

  • @hughcurtis4741
    @hughcurtis4741 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    I just love "Cocktails with a Curator." The art history lecture is always so interesting and the cocktail is such a nice touch! Thank you Aimee! x

  • @michaeljohnangel6359
    @michaeljohnangel6359 4 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    This is excellent!!! I enjoyed it very much. Thank you!! The curator is molto simpatica and presented the Vermeer very well; it's too bad that the sound is so bad-I missed a few things that she said. I've been enjoying this series, but this episode is the one that caused me to subscribe.

  • @valeriemulholland4282
    @valeriemulholland4282 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Excellent, and a moving description of the woman’s face and the possible explanation for her expression.

  • @nhamty599
    @nhamty599 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    What a thoroughly enjoyable lecture. Thank you.

  • @AngelaMuellers
    @AngelaMuellers ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you Aimee for your wonderful lecture! Regarding the camera obscura - using this device in no way diminishes Vermeer. Many professional artists trace portraits to speed up the long process ahead of them. Even though a painting may start this way - the artist must redraw with paint the image numerous times with each layer applied. If the artist does not have an advanced ability to draw it will show up in the finished painting.

  • @catherinetriplett5584
    @catherinetriplett5584 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Lovely, as usual! Thank you so much 😊

  • @joejordan9002
    @joejordan9002 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Thank you so much for that interesting and informative “Happy Hour”

  • @bobnewmanknott3433
    @bobnewmanknott3433 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Wonderful informative video from someone who loves their job. many many thanks

  • @chellemuir6194
    @chellemuir6194 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Absolutely Fabulous!

  • @eikofukuda8800
    @eikofukuda8800 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Bravo, Aimee Ng! You are the best!

  • @tanyaleef5138
    @tanyaleef5138 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Thank you hoped to hear more about painting technique

  • @chellemuir6194
    @chellemuir6194 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Loving this from Floral Park, NY

  • @goodboybuddy1
    @goodboybuddy1 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    So good. Thank you for sharing your beautiful knowledge with us! I myself had a bourbon and branch water.

  • @BCBNYC
    @BCBNYC 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Splendid! Brava! And thank you for the ethical reflections on the terrible price of the fur trade.

  • @juliedowden2800
    @juliedowden2800 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you so much!! This was so informative and well presented!!

  • @MJSTAMAND
    @MJSTAMAND 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    So looking forward to seeing this Vemeer at the Frick personally.

  • @091053JG
    @091053JG 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Great lecture, could have done without the political slant but it is what it is. When I first saw this painting in the Autumn of 1974 when I was a senior at Hunter College which is nearby the Frick (the Frick Collection was free admission in those days) I just loved it and still do. Henry Clay Frick for all his faults had a great taste in art.

  • @M-T-123
    @M-T-123 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thanks so much from Jacksonville, Florida

  • @fkd1963
    @fkd1963 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Wonderful and witty.

  • @bettygordon4683
    @bettygordon4683 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Brilliant!🌺🌹

  • @carlaroberts4969
    @carlaroberts4969 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Excellent, thanks.

  • @stevenedwards4470
    @stevenedwards4470 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Officer and laughing girl strikes me as having had a bit of a rough life. I might be mistaken as i don't have intense close ups of his other work on hand but does it need a touch of restoration? I don't recall noticing quite as much craquelure on his other work. There's 3 or 4 in the Met that i saw recently. Am i imagining that or is there some validity to that notion?

  • @valerieryan308
    @valerieryan308 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Excellent. Never connect Vermeer to Canada's fur trade. Where I teach art, I look out to the Hudson Bay Company Department Store, est. 400 years ago.:same time as the Dutch East Indian co. is established. Interesting to connect a mundane department store to an old master Dutch painter during a global pandemic!

  • @ratanashifu
    @ratanashifu 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    I think that Vermeer above all wished to show the beautiful hat of beaver. Here sits the man of the world who full well knows that the fur was precured from the swamps of New Amsterdam (New York). Either he sailed across the ocean himself, or he was wealthy enough to be able to buy such an expensive piece in his wardrobe.

  • @sunandmoon24
    @sunandmoon24 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Wonderful lecture!

  • @patrickfitzgerald2861
    @patrickfitzgerald2861 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Why do I get the feeling that Aimee never finished that jenever and beer? If not, smart girl!

  • @thespy5845
    @thespy5845 ปีที่แล้ว

    If the map is from 1621 and the painting from mid 17th C then it is antirely likely the beaver pelt came from our own, beloved, Nieuw Amsterdam

  • @LuizFilipeLucchiari
    @LuizFilipeLucchiari 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thank you very much

  • @susanward398
    @susanward398 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I feel that the officer was somewhat neglected in this otherwise excellent presentation, even though he takes up a large and very conspicuous part of the painting. What kind of officer is he: naval, ship's captain...? Was the much-discussed hat part of an official uniform? What might Vermeer have been telling us by hiding his face under that hat, yet making his figure so large and his clothing so bright? Is it to emphasize even more the significance of the small woman, who is bathed in all that light? Why is she so important? Or does he seem larger than life to her? It's hard to imagine that this painting is only about a "business transaction." I believe there is much more going on than that. At a time when Dutch ships nearly covered the globe, and voyages were measured in months and years, it may also be noteworthy that the huge wall map is a map of "home." There's always more to a genre painting than meets the eye! Thank you, Ms. Ng, for your thought-provoking discussion of this exquisite painting.

    • @susanward398
      @susanward398 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      @mark bushnell If you read my comment carefully, you'll see that it is not a criticism at all. Part of the genius of Vermeer is the ambiguity in his paintings. But maybe we can learn something more about this mysterious man by studying his clothing, the map on the wall, and the woman's gesture. What is your take on this painting?

  • @BrianJ.
    @BrianJ. 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

    In Dutch this work is called "De Soldaat en het lachende meisje". Soldier, not officer.

  • @judithdimitriu8696
    @judithdimitriu8696 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Thanks for the canadian Reference

  • @brynmawr27
    @brynmawr27 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Bravo!

  • @andrefreitas622
    @andrefreitas622 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Belíssimo 👏👏

  • @pieterwolt1245
    @pieterwolt1245 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Amy, though you might have received negative comments I am very happy you are mentioning colonialism etc. and other issues in an attempt to give a more objective and nuanced context of why/how/when some of these works of came into being.great work.great work

  • @evelynlee9308
    @evelynlee9308 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Vermeer. That's all you have to say!

  • @toddnakano
    @toddnakano 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Would you do a lecture (or series!) on how you would pair some of the paintings in the collection with a Contemporary, Modern, Women Artist, BLM, etc. work. Cheers!

  • @lindareid7279
    @lindareid7279 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hand over the money, Hunny.....😉😂

  • @tompommerel2136
    @tompommerel2136 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Yes, I very much like/value Ms Ng and the issues she brings into the focus of a single picture. However, what I find somewhat problematic is her posing of present-day questions that clearly do not belong to the past: Was Vermeer aware of the (human/environmental) cost of obtaining for example the beaver hat? While it is vital to balance splendour and exploitation, to me it smacks of the ideologically-driven obsession of making anachronistic value-judgments as seen today in the demolition of past reputations and commemorative images.

  • @jimjr4432
    @jimjr4432 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I'm glad Ms. Ng seems woke. Should not the Frick consider selling this painting and giving the proceeds as reparations to descendants of those peoples abused by the patrons of Vermeer? Seems like an appropriate SJ kind of approach.

  • @michaelkopala3738
    @michaelkopala3738 4 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Their narrator goes on and on about the expectation of Native Americans in obtaining the beaver for the hat does explain how that occurred. We are talking about the 1600s. And how does this affect or bring in the subject of African slaves? If you’re going to Bring up issues of this type you should explain in more detail and give some sense of contexts. Otherwise it comes across as just pandering to some of the current issues going in the world today.

  • @cucusca
    @cucusca 4 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Thank you so much for the informative talk. The politically correct remarks about the hat and the map were a little puzzling.

    • @jeffhreid
      @jeffhreid 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Agreed. Out of place and forced . This is better suited to light hearted chat about art and a cocktail. No need for yet another scolding for the evils of western civilization

    • @cucusca
      @cucusca 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      mark bushnell the “truth”?

    • @jimp4170
      @jimp4170 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      You see? It's very dangerous for you to leave your safe space!

  • @blairribeca5858
    @blairribeca5858 4 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    She sees a hat and gives us her au courant views on the African slave trade.Is there no limit to the virtue signalling of the WOKE?

    • @jimp4170
      @jimp4170 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Is there no end to the bitter tears of the fragile snowflakes who feel attacked whenever slavery is mentioned?

  • @brianrichards7006
    @brianrichards7006 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    You can skip to 20:23 if you are uninterested in Dutch liquor.

  • @laurencedankel4751
    @laurencedankel4751 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    “Johannes Vermeer, genocidal slave trader”. Interesting perspective.

  • @paulrosa6173
    @paulrosa6173 ปีที่แล้ว

    Why load Vermeer with the consciousness of colonial exploitation. He may have had opinions, if anybody was asking, similar to anyone else at the time. Europeans themselves couldn't have easily said no to it even if they had strong religious opinions. No one on earth back then may have had a very universal acceptance of any other country, any other society or culture or any other ethnicity but their own. Not the slavers or the slaves.

  • @kenboydart
    @kenboydart 4 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    These lectures are a wonder .
    And thanks to Aimee whenever I see
    a Vermeer I’m reminded of slavery …….
    And woke ness and virtue signaling …….
    Come to think of it …. I much prefer Xavier ……

    • @kenboydart
      @kenboydart 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      O I forgot, she also lets us know
      its Dutch-man not Dutchman ........ so important for being woke .

  • @jeffhreid
    @jeffhreid 4 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    Very disappointed by this episode. Is the not enough grief and stress in the modern world? There is no need to turn these light hearted diversions into yet another morality play. Give it a rest and enjoy the wonderful art.

    • @jimp4170
      @jimp4170 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Do you need a hug?

  • @jsb7975
    @jsb7975 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    In The golden age of The Netherlands , being the first republic as a country in Europe,
    slavery was forbidden.
    You had black vicars with much authority and mixed mariages were quite common in the dutch
    republic.
    Secondly , slavery was a common
    thing through-out the world ,
    in Africa , Arabia a. s. o .
    Cruelty among indians especially
    the Maya's, crualty by African tribes against each-other á la Hootsies and Tootsies .....
    Stop the Political-correct bias against specific parts of the world please.
    please.

    • @danpatrick24
      @danpatrick24 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      Pieter Sweelinck Hutu and Tutsi, my illiterate friend!

    • @jsb7975
      @jsb7975 4 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@danpatrick24 yes you are right
      But the use á la *machetes* is so to speak a striking exemple for the point I want to make any way