Truly appreciate this convo. I’ve been a defender of Dr. Horne, even where I had a few questions of some fine points here and there. But he clarified so much for me to the point of me being fully on board with his approach, in particular his point of lack of true acknowledgment of the unpaid African laborer to the development of the American project, the start point for historians in looking at the history of the American project in order to evaluate it, and his rejection of this need for Black people to find optimism in the American project. Many of Horne’s critics misrepresent his approach and this conversation very much sets the record straight. Excellent.
Yes absolutely. Dipshits (who call themselves Marxists) have been on about Horne for YEARS. Rather than read what he said and actually engage his works they engage in petty and stupid arguments that have nothing to do with it. It's absolutely worthwhile that you've had him on and in the podcast. Also, Daniel, as usual, you have the usual care and concern as you always do. Great work.
What should black people find optimism in, what does a liberated black future look like and how do you get there? Is it black capitalism, black communism, a new political paradigm altogether? nonracial?
Just wanted to add that Karl Marx himself - unlike the orthodox Marxists whom Horne criticizes - derisively mocked the notion that capitalism’s prehistory of ruthless barbarism somehow ‘had to happen’ to bring about a higher stage of economic development. For example, writing about “the Herod-like slaughter of innocents” in ‘Capital’ (Fowkes’ translation), Marx mocks Sir Frederic Eden for adopting “a blasé attitude toward the horrors” (Reitter’s translation) entailed by violent land grabs and for seeming “pleased in extending his congratulations on this ‘necessary’ process, which had to take place before capitalist agriculture… could be established” (page 686). Notice Marx put “necessary” in scare quotes. As Comrade Žižek has pointed out, relieving ourselves of moral responsibility by claiming any depravity will be exonerated from “the perspective of Last Judgment” is a Stalinist ploy. Sweeping historical crimes under the rug was not Marx’s modus operandi, nor was any secular dogma of predestination.
Where's the example of a society reaching a higher stage of development (industrialism, finance, etc) without bloody landgrabs (enclosures) and decimating peasantries? Anyway all that happened in the development of Europe and the rest of the world and now here we are. Whats the way out? Slandering white workers as inherently and consistently "class collaborationist" and lobbying for capitalist reparations as compensation for only the unpaid labor of descendents of slaves while ignoring the very marxist fact that all workers - yes even whites - are unpaid? Dr Horne is lost in the sauce with no revolutionary strategy but plenty of demogogic fervor.
Dr. Jerald Horne is the most prominent Marxist historian of our time! His analysis of history is at a level of accuracy and thoroughnesses that cannot be challenged.MUCH RESPECT TO YOU OUR AFRIKAN SCHOLAR!
No, I heard they ask this question to Dr. Horn on several occasions. But I would like to ask his life of the rationalization of working class issues or to try to like boil working class issues down to where this class did not race, what do you think about people who passor and I think you said a little about it, but I would like to know more about people who pass, but they end up adopting fascism for safety reasons
14:18 horne defines white (so called settlers) workers as class collaborationist and uses a corrput union boss loving in a mansion as an example. But black workers today have the highest rate of union membership and are heavily employed in and by the State as well as union bureaucracies. So are we so supposed to distort his own criteria for "settler" and continue to act like blacks have still not joined the ranks of the class collaborators?
10:12 salute? Aside from some tiny percentage of human societies that exiated at the time european colonialism (such as some native amaerican groups) I dont think theres ANY society worth saluting. They all sucked. Anyway it doesnt require any ideologues of left or right to convince significant swaths of capitalist society to salute it - forces inherent to bourgeois society make "free" and willing particpants, many of whome are both enthusiastic and nonwhite. In popular culture some of the most enthusiastic figures saluting capitalism are american descendants of slaves. The leftists that horne criticizes merely acknowledge the obvious fact that the bourgeois societies birthed by revolutions like that of 1776 had a dialectical impact, half of which sets the stage for the next and most liberatory revolution yet - the communist one. Im not far into this interview but have watched many like it and have yet to learn Horne's recommendation for a valid revolutionary praxis. He's a brilliant man and engaging communicator so I will always click on his videos but am waiting for his explanation of how we overcome the world that capitalism built.
Truly appreciate this convo. I’ve been a defender of Dr. Horne, even where I had a few questions of some fine points here and there. But he clarified so much for me to the point of me being fully on board with his approach, in particular his point of lack of true acknowledgment of the unpaid African laborer to the development of the American project, the start point for historians in looking at the history of the American project in order to evaluate it, and his rejection of this need for Black people to find optimism in the American project. Many of Horne’s critics misrepresent his approach and this conversation very much sets the record straight. Excellent.
Yes absolutely. Dipshits (who call themselves Marxists) have been on about Horne for YEARS. Rather than read what he said and actually engage his works they engage in petty and stupid arguments that have nothing to do with it. It's absolutely worthwhile that you've had him on and in the podcast. Also, Daniel, as usual, you have the usual care and concern as you always do. Great work.
What should black people find optimism in, what does a liberated black future look like and how do you get there? Is it black capitalism, black communism, a new political paradigm altogether? nonracial?
@@wokeisweak Unity across the board.
We need to move away from this Tarzan ethos, "Me Class, you Race." Dr. Horne is the most important historian of our time. Spread his work widely!
Tarzan: white class collaborationist. Black revolutionary.
Holy this collab🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾Bless y’all
Really enjoyed this conversation
Hope to see him again. Great conversation.
Great interview. You drew Dr. Horne out about things he's usually more quiet about. Thanks 🙏🏻
Looking forward to reading Dr. Horne’s work
Thank you and Ashe Dr. Horne.
Interesting discussion
"I know what you say is true in practice, but is it true in theory?" 😂😂😂
Once again Dr.Horne is 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🙏🏾 blessings and protection Ashe'
Thank you. Great conversation. I appreciate the wide range of discussions to think about and engage in
"To become more "American" means to become more racist" ~ Dr Gerald Horne
Good show thanks
Dr Horne was on fire here.
Very well said.
Horne is going off we’re only 20 mins in! Thank you Daniel for facilitating this
What a time to be alive 🎉
Dr Horne is GOAT
Black Power! All praise be God For The honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan dr Gerald Horne. the Black American are the future of the planet
Would like to hear more on his book on Hollywood film.
30:55 Claudia Jones!📢
Just wanted to add that Karl Marx himself - unlike the orthodox Marxists whom Horne criticizes - derisively mocked the notion that capitalism’s prehistory of ruthless barbarism somehow ‘had to happen’ to bring about a higher stage of economic development. For example, writing about “the Herod-like slaughter of innocents” in ‘Capital’ (Fowkes’ translation), Marx mocks Sir Frederic Eden for adopting “a blasé attitude toward the horrors” (Reitter’s translation) entailed by violent land grabs and for seeming “pleased in extending his congratulations on this ‘necessary’ process, which had to take place before capitalist agriculture… could be established” (page 686). Notice Marx put “necessary” in scare quotes. As Comrade Žižek has pointed out, relieving ourselves of moral responsibility by claiming any depravity will be exonerated from “the perspective of Last Judgment” is a Stalinist ploy. Sweeping historical crimes under the rug was not Marx’s modus operandi, nor was any secular dogma of predestination.
Is there a link to your newsletter and podcast?
Where's the example of a society reaching a higher stage of development (industrialism, finance, etc) without bloody landgrabs (enclosures) and decimating peasantries? Anyway all that happened in the development of Europe and the rest of the world and now here we are. Whats the way out? Slandering white workers as inherently and consistently "class collaborationist" and lobbying for capitalist reparations as compensation for only the unpaid labor of descendents of slaves while ignoring the very marxist fact that all workers - yes even whites - are unpaid? Dr Horne is lost in the sauce with no revolutionary strategy but plenty of demogogic fervor.
Dr. Horne one substack!!!
A 1,700% profit means you can make $1,700 from $100, not $1.
Dr. Jerald Horne is the most prominent Marxist historian of our time! His analysis of history is at a level of accuracy and thoroughnesses that cannot be challenged.MUCH RESPECT TO YOU OUR AFRIKAN SCHOLAR!
No, I heard they ask this question to Dr. Horn on several occasions. But I would like to ask his life of the rationalization of working class issues or to try to like boil working class issues down to where this class did not race, what do you think about people who passor and I think you said a little about it, but I would like to know more about people who pass, but they end up adopting fascism for safety reasons
What they have to learn nothing the parties are the same they are one this race game that is being played on the people
14:18 horne defines white (so called settlers) workers as class collaborationist and uses a corrput union boss loving in a mansion as an example. But black workers today have the highest rate of union membership and are heavily employed in and by the State as well as union bureaucracies. So are we so supposed to distort his own criteria for "settler" and continue to act like blacks have still not joined the ranks of the class collaborators?
It seems like you reject the concept of settlers
As deployed by Sakai et al, hell yeah i reject it. Whites can't be proletarian? GTFOH
10:12 salute? Aside from some tiny percentage of human societies that exiated at the time european colonialism (such as some native amaerican groups) I dont think theres ANY society worth saluting. They all sucked. Anyway it doesnt require any ideologues of left or right to convince significant swaths of capitalist society to salute it - forces inherent to bourgeois society make "free" and willing particpants, many of whome are both enthusiastic and nonwhite. In popular culture some of the most enthusiastic figures saluting capitalism are american descendants of slaves.
The leftists that horne criticizes merely acknowledge the obvious fact that the bourgeois societies birthed by revolutions like that of 1776 had a dialectical impact, half of which sets the stage for the next and most liberatory revolution yet - the communist one.
Im not far into this interview but have watched many like it and have yet to learn Horne's recommendation for a valid revolutionary praxis. He's a brilliant man and engaging communicator so I will always click on his videos but am waiting for his explanation of how we overcome the world that capitalism built.
What does Dr. Horne mean, Edward Landsdale was the best President the Philippines ever had? 🤣🤣🤣