My 15 Year Mistake: Exercise. [Study 196, 197]
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ส.ค. 2023
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References:
[1] Momma H, Kawakami R, Honda T, Sawada SS. Muscle-strengthening activities are associated with lower risk and mortality in major non-communicable diseases: a systematic review and meta-analysis of cohort studies. Br J Sports Med. 2022;56(13):755-763. doi:10.1136/bjsports-2021-105061
[2] Shailendra P, Baldock KL, Li LSK, Bennie JA, Boyle T. Resistance Training and Mortality Risk: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis. Am J Prev Med. 2022;63(2):277-285. doi:10.1016/j.amepre.2022.03.020
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#exercisescience #exercisetips #musclegrowth
Just got done working out and I literally just injured my knee, coincidence? I think not. Exercise is trying to silence me.
SEE NOTE(S) BELOW
Note 1: A few people have already mentioned steroids as a possible reason why, and I think this critique of the analysis is great, except there's one issue with it that I would have you consider. Yes, steroids is a possibility and makes tremendous sense to be in people who lift a lot of weights. However, for the data to consistently shoot up like that, it would mean that steroid user would have to make up the majority of the data set, so the question you have to ask yourself is "do I believe a majority (or close to a majority) of people who lift a lot are steroid users?".
My naive guess is 'no', but what might make sense is that more men use exogenous testosterone (TRT), so could this skew the data somehow? Maybe, but we'd need to look at specific longevity data on TRT users (maybe something I can look into for you?).
Note 2: "Is there a chance that the factor for the increase in overall mortality, cancer and cardiovascular disease and the increase in resistance training per week is a matter of diet? Since people that lift for longer times during the week usually take it more seriously and therefore watch their protein intake. Since eating high amounts of meat, eggs and possibly dairy (for a more efficient intake of protein g/100g) is associated with all of these increases in risk of mortality, cancer etc? Since that would definitely factor into the development of these diseases (knowing that processed meat is a known carcinogen as well as high amounts of meat in a diet, not to mention the cholesterol amounts associated with these amounts of food). I could be totally off but that's my best guess." - a point by @leonardodicapriojojo to consider (thank you for sharing!)
Great points, guys!
Do you think young people should take taurine?
😊
I don't see an issue with it, but if you're basing it on the data I showed in my videos, I doubt it will have any impact, because you are young (let's define it as
Anything to get out of leg day🙄.......🤣
🤫@@_Trimaze_
Sixty years of heavy training has kept me in shape to serve as a pall bearer for my friends and relatives.
😉
Hahah.. keep that… greetings from brazil
Respect.
Believe in Jesus n be saved
Oh brutal 👍
I'm 54 and train 6-7 days a week, sauna 3 days a week. 36 years ago to the day I was on my way to Marine Corps boot camp on my initial strength test i did 12 pull ups today I can do 21. I still fit the pants I wore when I shipped out. I'll train until I'm no longer breathing.
You are the military guy. It's no surprise to me.
What is the point otherwise? Keep moving brother. I’m 59 and pretty much the same weight and body composition I was in HS many many moons ago. I’m not a military guy but always trained like one and I hope to go out doing what I love long after burying all my sedentary peers! Lift hard and lift heavy not matter your age!
I’m wondering if under recovering is the problem because we know that over training is not healthy
At a certain point it's definitely worth just keeping your momentum. Everyone dies. But you'll die fit, and face the gods as one of them, not beneath them.
@@brandonkarkanis4208If recovery is sufficient i believe we can train significantly longer.
Weight training cured my depression. I won't stop. Never. Neeevvuuuurr.
Neveeeer!!
@@Physionic My guy 💪😆
@@lightbringer589Killing oneself USING sport
Now that’s 250Iq
@@skseway7313do you even lift brah
Seriously. I'd rather die early.
I think the obvious question is how the "minutes" of exercise were calculated. If I go to the gym for 90 minutes, I am actually only lifting for about 15-20 minutes (say 30 sets in total, with each set being about 30-40 secs). That's the critical factor. Of course there are people who spend 4 hrs in the gym and only lift for 10 mins. 😂
My thoughts exactly!
An excellent question - they did not define it, so I'm not sure, but I would GUESS that it's estimated time exercising, not rest time. I'm sure there's some inaccuracy there.
Ha, I should've read the comments before I made one :)
@@Physionic 90 minutes of normal lifting with rest periods isn't that hard on the heart. But 90 minutes of HIIT will damn near kill you. This study is bogus.
Good question. If we do not count rest periods and only the actual lifting time, 40 minutes seems more then enough. Considering that one good hard set on average should be 40 seconds. 40 minutes of lifting is ~53 sets which is perfect for 5 muscle groups.
You're telling me working out might not only make me ripped but also end my suffering sooner? That's just a win win
One possible confounding variable: Steroid abuse. Lower lifting durations may be the norm for demographics primarily looking to improve their baseline health while those with extensive training sessions may be more likely to do it to boost self-confidence and appearance, and have to deal with the temptations to enhance their physique that many of us have been exposed to along our weight lifting journeys. - I think follow up studies are needed where bloodwork to detect unusually high androgen levels (and signs of other performance-enhancing drugs) are also in effect before we draw any significant conclusions regarding possible adverse effects to longevity from extensive exercise!
Agreed. I address some of your concerns in the pinned comment, check it out. But, yes, I agree.
And a very high-protein, meat based diet, which seems to be far from ideal!
You took the words right out of my mouth. Diet is another potential factor that could influence the stats. Most meatheads I know have an atrocious diet consisting of large quantities of processed meats and ultra-processed foods (whey protein, lab-made energy bars etc).
@@AelwynMrA diet high in protein is essential for older people. Just a fact. Animal protein, in particular meat and eggs, from organic grass fed animals is a complete and healthy source. Learn more about the health benefits of a carnivore diet.
@@AntiTheismForevernah, that has been disproven over and over, for years (that’s why you don’t see a bunch of carnivore centenarians walking around - good for short-term gains, bad for longevity, just a fact supported by solid data).
The increased protein requirement for older age is not that drastic either, to the order of 15-20% over minimum requirements, which pretty much brings it up to the level of a standard western diet.
Finally, there is very little conclusive evidence to show tangible benefits from grass-fed meats sadly (other than the obvious ethical reasons).
All-in-all, studies keep pointing towards the same boring conclusion: just eat a balanced diet, use moderation, and don’t fall for the latest extreme fads.
I am 61 years old. I have been active in martial arts and resistance training most of my life. Started martial arts at 10 years old and still do it 4 times a week, resistance training started in my 20's.
I move like a much younger man compared to my contemporaries and frequently better than those 25 years younger than me (remember to work those type 2 muscle fibers). If exercise didn't add 1 day to my life being fit and mobile alone would still make it worth it.
Exercise creates a lot of oxidative stress in the body. When combined with a poor diet I can see where some would not benefit as much from exercise. Take your anti-oxidants.
also, 60 minutes in the gym is not 60 minutes exercising. If I am focused on the task, reduce distractions I can be in and out in 45 minutes with 20-30 minutes of actual reps.
This is the only data I go by: what I see and hear with my own eyes and ears. Everyone I know over fifty who works out is mentally and physically better off than even people in their thirties who don’t use weights. So, “data” can stuff itself. Experience knows better.
@@Lyra1.618I’m wondering if under recovering was a factor maybe resistance training is only healthy if you can recover from it
Amla powder might help your antioxidant efforts. It’s probably one of the best.
Full body workout once a week , walk 4 times a week and i feel great , injury free. I think recovery and not abusing the amount of weight is key for me as i get older .
Yep, same here. I wouldn't do full body more than once a week with a freakin gun to my head. Once is enough to get good benefits.
Sounds good.
It is sad but true. Older I get easier it is to get injured, at some point health benefits must be prioritized over performance, which means cutting down training volume
But that wouldn't build muscle only maintain it right?..
@@sankalpverma618 depends on if you increase the weight. one workout a week is enough to build muscle.
Very fascinating and def something to think about. I've been weight training for the last 30 years 3-4x a week. But I don't do it to live longer, I do it to live better.
The results by age cohort are going to be instructive. As Peter Attia often mentions, the loss of muscle mass in aging is directly linked to increased mortality, for a whole host of reasons including everything from increased insulin resistance to frailty and broken bones. The key is to find the sweet spot that confers the greatest benefits for the least risks.
Based on best evidence to date. He’s changed his mind on subjects before as science retests and changes. Good science always does. Nothing is ever static or set in stone.
Its not muscle mass that needs to be manitained in aging, it's strenght
Trying to compare my resistance training time to studies is tricky because, unlike cardio, there's so much downtime when lifting. It makes me think that "minutes per week" is a pretty poor metric to measure against because it doesn't capture the amount of work being done. It's so easy to take twice as long in between sets and to have that not captured in the data.
I had the same thought
That was my first thought as well. My split is strength train then next time it is endurance/growth. So my strength train day is about 3 minutes rest between sets and my endurance/growth is 90 seconds rest with lower weight and higher reps. Strength day is much longer than endurance/growth day but I am doing much less reps although it is higher weight. Very hard to put this to practice.
Agreed. I would love to see something like working sets per week (with greater emphasis given to multi-joint exercises over single-joint exercises) used as the independent variable.
All true. Plus it's self-reported as opposed to say a blood test so everyone will measure it differently.
I’m glad to see your channel doing well, you deserve it. I remember commenting over a year ago about how quality your content is and that you’d definitely get more traction, sure enough here you are! Very nice to see hard work pay off :)
I appreciate you, Sly.
Awesome video, definitely keep us updated about your thoughts on this topic. Gratz on 100k!
This is the quality content we are looking for and why I subscribed! Thank you!
I think many underestimate recovery. Even some bodybuilders say they only train a specific muscle group maximum once every two weeks. Also, in the Huberman Lab Podcast with AthleanX, Jeff points out the individually different times for recovery. Some might need two days, others two weeks. Lastly, Bryan Johnson from Blueprint comes to my mind. Though there are many things one can critique about him and his techniques, he states he would love to train more but does not for recovery reasons (healthspan and lifespan goals) and I think he is very correct about that. The body simply needs time to recover and can not „repair“ properly, if there is too much „damage". But yes, we need much more studies on this.
Super interesting video!
Flex Wheeler took it easy and went just to sleep to the gym. Muscles growed from steroids and smell of sweat at te gym when sleping.
I am 98 years old, worked out everyday of my life, sometimes up to 2 hours in gym.. Barely missed a day, I prob worked out 8 hours a week, every week, not to mention running 20-30 miles a week... and im still working out!
@@knockstarstv5711 sure 🤣
Ah ha - you had me worried there for a minute Nicolas. I’m female, 63 years old and exercise regularly (kinda always have over the years) including strength training, cardio and yoga style stuff. Hopefully I sit somewhere on the bottom of that U curve in terms of time spent on resistance training. For those of us who do regularly, exercise becomes a bit of an addiction and at my age I definitely feel the benefits. Side story here to demo - recently went up Ben Vrakie in Scotland - not quite a Munro but not far off it. It was a bugger of a hill and I know it was my level of fitness that got me up it. View was worth it though. Anyway back to the point seems on balance that excercise is still good for you. I so enjoy your videos - I watch them regularly and find them so interesting and informative and I love your wit and humour- congratulations on the success of your content. Not surprised they are so popular- many thanks.
I just like to lift weights! Improves my mental well being and gives me a sense of accomplishment! I’m 73 and will lift as long as I am able to lift!
Outstanding
Many things I appreciate about this post, the lesson in research literacy for one, but I most appreciate that you recognized, and wrestled with, your bias. Thank you for being open about that. There are very popular “scientists” who have publicly declared they don’t operate from bias but then make all kinds of claims they can’t (or won’t) substantiate. It’s so helpful to have science publicly represented by people who recognize they have biases and need to confront them rather than feed them. That is scientific rigour at work. 👏👏🙌🙌
This doesn't surprise me at all. Over-training has always been a thing. I've seen it impact people I know in very negative ways. In my opinion, balance is the key to good health and longevity. I am 54 and I do resistance exercise for just 1 hour 3x per week (including periods of rest) and this seems to be a sweet spot for me. Obviously, more of a good thing is not always better and this applies to exercise, as well as most good things in life. I look and feel great and I'm not wasting time working out that don't provide any benefit, and may actually cause harm.
I 'm 59 and starting out at gym - 3 times a week - with some small stuff at home , or some quick pullups in park ,. I 'm just seeing what's possible . I think some of those doing huge progressive overload multiple types per week - are decreasing some benefits , extra muscle , extra weight , extra resources in body to maintain it all - add in possible poor diet . My aim is to get to a muscle up and a pistol squat - both really need leaner body , Plus get body fat done to say 14/15 % - I want a bit of body fat for it's protective benefits and I know when I set off travelling the world again , I will lose weight , so don't want to be at 10% to 12% . I think this needs more nuance - not enough rest time , stress elsewhere in life , carrying too much muscle , not eating right , personality OCD training etc , drug/supplements etc . Listen to your body - probably in 6 months will go into maintenance phase
I have an 18 year mistake who's going to med school this autumn.
Awful. ;-)
I was diagnosed with MS in 2013. I had 2 pretty severe, separate relapses (new lesions/new symptoms) right after bouts of training really hard with a trainer in the gym...like a month afterwards BOTH times. Needless to say I don't train hard anymore. Light to moderate exercise is where it's at.
Well done for sharing. This is a standard response that has been shown time and again. All it really means is don’t over do exercise. Also have you explore the need for variety in movements and activities. Weights just reflect a challenge the body needs to get it to strengthen infrastructure of the body so depending on the disease you see different protective effects
This is absolutely INCREDIBLE content. Subbed. Not even a question.
This data does not surprise me at all. I am 60. Been lifting for 40 years. Used to do 2-3 hours a day 5-6 days a week. That pace, for years, left me with constant injuries, depression, frequent colds and little in the way of gains in size/strength. I learned the hard way that too much (or little) of anything is detrimental to health. All must be in balance. Intense exercise is a stress on the body and initiates a lengthy cycle of recovery and over compensation that is "healthy". But too much exercise, too frequently interferes with this cycle and leads to a decrease in "health". Short, brief, intense and infrequent lifting has demonstrated the best gains in muscle size/strength and overall "health" over the last 20+ years. Arthur Jones/Mike Mentzer..... were on the right track. More is not better.
Extremely impressive considering it's been 40 years. Not to mention you're a stapler. Impressive.
exact same boat here. I switched to super slow twice a week ~7 years ago. I wish I would have done that out of the gate.
@@Physionic Well, I am not an "adonis" like you but not a half bad stapler body for a crusty old man..............
@@joerockhead7246 Wish I switched over much earlier as well - live and learn............
I’m a 69 year old male. Been lifting weights regularly since I was 24. 180cm and 90 kilograms. I work full time and my occupation requires that I have a category 1 medical every year. No health issues except CKD. Some doctors say high creatinine levels from higher muscle bulk give a false reading for CKD. Anyhow, I feel fine. I work out about 5 hours per week but as one poster has noted, I’m not lifting for 5 hours.
Where is ur physique video, what job do u do
@@eggbenedict-gt7mw I don’t do videos and all I can say is that my occupation requires me to be fit and healthy.
@@richardmalone3172 what is ur occupation, u follow Dr berg a chiropractor turned utube doctor,
Lovely
Yes, ckd is increased with people who have a body type/dna that tears down muscle more easily than others. It is also an indication that your cells are getting trashed more frequently. In my case it was exposures to Gulf War toxins of oil well fire smoke, insecticides, volatile organic compounds from freshly opened tents or new vehicle prep, and many too close together immunizations. I'm still alive at 67 with years of higher than normal ckd, so you are probably fine. It always goes back to trust your body and gut more than tests and doctors. 😊
this actually correlates well with 20 minutes being the maximum for muscle gain per day and needing three rest days per week... 4 days of heavy lifting would add up to 80 minutes of weekly exercise, which is about where the charts seem to start exponentially climbing back up in terms of negative outcome.
20 minutes continuous, or does that 20 minutes include breaks (heavy compound movements often benefit from 3-5 minute rests)?
@@defeqel6537 yea, no, i aim fort at least 12 reps per muscle per set for max hypertrophy then I stop the timer on my fitness band and rest a couple minutes... takes me a whole hour to do 20 minutes of exercise like this, but I REALLY think that's what scientific studies look at, time spent actively performing exercise, not pacing around in the gym.
Mike Mentzer and the results of the study you're commenting about would disagree sir.
@@defeqel6537 For me since I do powerlifting I rest 2-5 mins each set. I do the 3 big lifts (squat, bench, deadlift). My breathing had improved a lot, and my doctor was suprised how good i was breathing compared to others. Since everyone is different take as much as you need to rest. The bigger the life the more rest. I was a runner as a kid. Sometimes i wont run for months and I will run a sub 6 min mile first try.
This was my favorite video of yours I have watched. Really interesting stuff going on here, I would love a follow up video! I was surprised by these studies
I used to train for up to 2 hours years ago. Now I have a lot of injuries. I currently do limited training but will switch to 3-4 20-30 minute high intensity and heavy sessions but also being very careful. I am attaining most of my goals through fasting, keto and walking
Watch jay vincent n drew baye lift 1-2x a week one set to failure. Believe in Jesus be saved from hell n read the word
I'm very curious how the "minutes" of exercise were calculated. I go to the gym everyday but with all the resting between sets, I probably only train 20 min a day, staying under 140 min. Any way to find out how they define the training minutes?
Really good point!
I'm the same, I usually rest 1 to 3 mins depending on exercise.
Don’t train that much lift 1-2 x a week one set to failure
Increased heart rate would be one way to figure out.
But if you aren’t going to failure, heart rate doesn’t reach 75-80% chances are you are in the moderate workout and are fine.
Picture spin class and an aerobic resistance class every day…then you need to start paying attention.
But I meet lots of yoga people in the cancer world too, but they are usually grain vegetarians.
@@rockyp32 That's just to maintain an already-good physiques.
If you're not where you want to be, to get to that level you're gonna need a hell of a lot more than just one set per muscle group!
@@nin1269 myth watch drew baye n jay vincent. Workout is simply stimulus
If you get cancer, heart disease or so on your looking at it differently than I do. I’m 70 years old and train 5 hours per week and that’s so I can still go up steps, carry groceries, lift up my grandchildren and so on. People in my age group because they don’t train just can’t. I also was attacked by 2 - 40 something’s and was still able to beat them both…. I’ll keep on working out …..
Great way to start a Monday and week with a new Nic video.
This is consistent with the advice I generally follow from Mark Lauren in his book You Are Your Own Gym. Moderation is a good thing.
Been at it since I was 14 yo. Now 68 yo. I never stopped. Yet. Evolved naturally to keep on shortening and intensifying. Today doing scarcely 3-4 min per day but in best shape ever. Reason? As we age the body perceives exercise as STRESS. Cascade of disease inducing effects. Walk the fine line of adapting your dose to your age. That goes for frequency, intensity and volume. Not too much neither too little. Exercise should just produce the right amount of stress for health.
Interesting and stimulating info. Thanks.
Frik.
As far as I saw with a quick search, for aerobic training the dose response seems to show benefits from the beginning. It would be very interesting to see what happens if you look at combined cardio + resistance training
Time it took for this to become my favorite channel after recent discovery: damn near zero.
Thank you for everything you do! I love every highly detailed minute of your content. Much respect!
Really amazing summaries of research - well done!
Thank you for your analysis of scientific data. The graph data does not take into account the influence of food quality and the influence of genes. I am 72 years old, and for the last 30 years I am a gym goer, but at 62 I did not avoid heart surgery, and now doctors are treating cancer. Sure, physical education did not bring harm to anyone. Maybe without the gym, I wouldn't have made it to 62.
I hope your cancer treatment goes well!
Thank you, I feel much better@@kkkkkk6570
Well... It's a boomer. As someone who does resistance training 3-4 times a week, I find this very disappointing. Guess people who hate exercise have reason to celebrate. Anyway, thanks for sharing this data. I really appreciate you recognizing and trying to suppress your personal prejudices on this topic. I know it's not an easy task, so huge respect.
First, great channel! I'm fairly new to it, digging your content, style, presentation, etc :)
As with any other non-diet related study on health/longevity/mortality, diet is not a consideration. Whereas it should be the very first variable identified, since you "can't outrun a bad diet". That aside, on a cellular level (and up) there are only 2 problems that can occur: Insufficiency and toxicity. One can have too much or too little of literally anything (oxygen, water, sugar, hugs, crack... ok maybe there's no lower limit for crack). And this doesn't just apply to substances, but application as well (stress). As you well pointed out, stress will make or not make "stuff" that affects us along a spectrum, therefore too much exercise, hot &/or cold exposure, political discussions, sun exposure, relationships... you get where I'm going. These results don't surprise me at all. As for age, a younger body can mitigate imbalance better than an old body. Pretty straightforward, although a 60yr old eating a proper diet could have a "leg up" on a 30yr old with a poor diet.
A half-assed analogy I like to use: If you pee regularly in your car's tank, how much do you need to run it at 90 mph to mitigate any damage?
Yes, I'm well aware of open vs closed systems, but the point holds ;-)
I guess my main reason for posting at all is that it always gets to me when diet (the root cause of nearly all challenges to optimal health/longevity) is not factored into a study, or its presentation. And discussing/performing exercise without ensuring a proper diet is in place, is not going to make much of a difference.
Thank you for talking about this!
Great stuff (as usual). I think this validates both the importance of resistance training AND the importance of cross training (cardio, yoga, sport, walking, etc). As we see so often in life, variety and diversity are usually the ideal goal. I REALLY appreciate that you spoke not only about your bias, but also that you are going to do what is best for you (especially for mental well being). So often we see that people want a single path, but there is no "one right way to live". Genetic makeup, climate, diet, access, age, lifestyle, etc. all play a part and are always changing.
Taking a step back, we know that a good goal is 150 min of moderate activity per week. For *some* people, that may look like 30-50% resistance training coupled with the rest coming from sports, yoga, walking, cardio, etc... which really seems like a great overall approach. I try to look at it as five 30 min "sessions" per week, with the possibility of multiple sessions in any given day.
So, this really seems like further validation of the current popular advice, with the caveat that we should be mindful to look for multiple forms of activity... which is also pretty popular advice. Thanks again @physionic for making this data more broadly accessible.
It might be linked to lifestyle choice of people who weightlift a lot. Often taking steroids, eating junk food, or nutritional deficient food despite their increase need for micronutrients. How many bodybuilders drink pre workouts and junk food ? Many and these are the people who workout 6+ times a week
Or high animal protein diets, which are associated with higher disease risk than plant protein diets. Plus steroid use.
@@r0bt93lol tthats just wrong
@@craftingodst3400 higher heart disease rates, colorectal cancer with red meat, diabetes with red meat etc
Thank you. Great piece of content.
I'm not sure why you'd be confused. It does make sense to me.
It's called overtraining. When I was young, I would work out six days a week, and I did really heavy weight. I was sick all the time though, which was bizarre because I had a 30 inch waist and 50+ in chest. As it turns out, your ability to do work goes up faster than your ability to recover from it, and you have to reduce your workout. Or make no progress, and apparently have health problems.
I read something from Mike Mentzer, called Heavy Duty, and reduced working out to three days a week. I built muscle so fast, people thought I was juicing, but I wasn't. I finally let my body recover, and I felt much better and was much healthier. More isn't always better.
I still work out three days a week. I do one "real" set per exercise, because you only need one set to stimulate muscle growth. That one set is extremely intense, so much so people always ask me why I do it, or if I'm OK. If you do it right, one set is enough. But, you have to really do it.
I'm 60 now, and still do pretty much the same weight. I'm convinced it works, and I'm convinced overtraining is worse than undertraining, having wasted years on that path.
The two people I knew who were very active all day long both died in their 60s, cancer. I thought probably due to oxidative stress. They looked fabulous however. Something about “moderation in all things” comes to mind.
Two people I know who were very active died in their 90s. Screw moderation!
A counter example to this - My grandparents were active for most of the day - walking everywhere they went and gardening. Lived to their 90s. Their friends that sat in front of the TV all day lived to their late 60s,70s.
you see these sort of comments on almost every topic, ''my nans uncles cousin lived to 50 and she was perfectly healthy'' or my dogs cousins uncles brother lived to 118 and she smoked everyday, it doesent really prove anything past an anecdote.
@@bradturner7678 Not a fan of anecdote roulette? Because I've got one about a 103-year-old meth-head who sourced all his 'protein' from glue.
I get the anecdotal argument. Those people were not just walking and gardening, they were riding road bikes for hours at 18 mph, sculling around the marina for 2 hours a day, hiking in the mountains, and lifting weights at the health club, all of this daily (we are in California, possible to be outside easily 355 days of the year). We, their friends, told them they were running themselves into the ground. And they did. Literally. So ya, some people do it and are very healthy, but look up oxidative stress. You’re supposed to rest in between.
Yes it definitely needs to be broken down by age category as part of a sub analysis to get more clarity.
Interesting study- Peter Attia did a podcast episode in which he and someone discussed a distance runner that was so addicted to the runner's high that he actually shortened his lifespan by over stressing his cardiovascular system. I'm similar to you, Physionic, in that I really push myself in the gym. Until recently, didn't think that this was harmful for my body in any way. However, my thinking was the opposite of your hypothesis when it comes to exercise effects and age. I was listening to Dr. Paul Saladino talk to Georgi Dinkov (a Ray Pete disciple) in another podcast. In that podcast, Ray Pete suggested that the human body dealt better with the stress of exercise in youth and that the endocrine benefits that enhanced health were also experienced in young people. His suggestion was to remain physically active as one aged but that one should not push oneself in the gym as much by lifting heavy weights. That made me interested in building as much muscle now before it become more difficult and before my body couldn't handle the stress as easily. Doctors like Peter Attia do like to toss around metrics around the relationship between strength and aging (grip strength has a positive correlation with mortality?). I'm not sure what research is supporting these metrics but they imply that naturally derived muscle is almost always beneficial for longevity. A central factor that may unite many correlates with longevity maybe the capacity to recover from stress/capacity for anti fragility and adaptation. Again I will cite Attia again but this time with the discussion with the researcher Eileen White peterattiamd.com/eileenwhite/. Eileen mentions how in their research she found that only mice that were caloric restricted in their youth experienced longevity benefits while restricting calories in elderly mice saw no benefit in aging. I don't know if this has any relationship to the benefits in fasting for humans but it seems to me like the capacity of dealing with a stressor in mice is reduced. Such much to explore on this topic- happy to come across your channel.
Keep on keeping on! 💪
There is also a confounder in the curves you presented. The inflection point may indicate those people who train excessively. These individuals often, not always, take ‘supplements’ (and not the safe variety either). This will skew the curves in the way you showed. It is similar to the ‘weight’ graphs. People with low weight have higher increased risk of all cause mortality because they often have low weight for a reason (chronic disease, malnutrition etc.). People with high weight also have increased risk of ACM because disease like diabetes, heart disease etc.. take them out.
Fr I'm willing to bet exercise has nothing to do with it. It's the unhealthy diets associated with the heavy hitters. Carb loading is the worst thing you could do for your heart
Exactly what i was thinking. Were these people tested for PEDs?
It would have been interesting if they were also tracking Inflammatory markers. It's established Bro-Science that Muscle building involves minor damage/Repair to the muscle. More then Four hard bodybuilding workouts per week that involve muscle/damage/recovery without appropriate rest days will also increase the days the body is subjected to the increased inflammation.
Mike Mentzer
@@petesanda4213The Godfather of HIIT.
@@petesanda4213I came here to say that. 😅
I'm 68 and some 2 years ➕ in my the paleo journey. I'm pushing free weights the past few months, using machines prior. It's challenging and dangerous but I love it. Progression, to failure the gains, the hormones, the recovery. 2x week, about an hour on floor, about 12 total sets. Working for me. 💪🙏🏋
This is true everywhere, more is not always better. There is a "sweet spot" in everything in life.
My humble take on resistance training when overdone is not allowing the body to repair the damage in cells caused by a training session so damage accumulates which leads to an unhealthy response from the body, some would even use drugs to speed up recovery and boost energy levels artificially. This is when good turns into bad. Exercising should always remain a mean to stimulate the biological functions of the body with measured and reasonable stress AND allowing the system to repair and recover.
Staying away from PEDs is also crucial to never lose the natural feedback that the body always tries to send to the brain, those are clear signals on how to manage progress while staying in the healthy ballpark.
Interesting data and I wonder if this is due to some self-selection effect where as people start to spend more time resistance training, they neglect cardio/start taking external hormones/take on other riskier activities?
All-cause mortality can also be a weird proxy right, as it can include things like car-accidents? And isn't this 'too much exercise increases mortality' also true for cardio as well? Or maybe people who 'overdue' resistance training are in some group trying to 'gain' health after an adverse event and have worse outcomes in general?
I'd love to see the meta-analyses drive more specific research to suss out the cause, and I appreciated you taking the time to talk about the sub-groups because I think you're onto something there.
Your point about reaping benefits from a mental standpoint outweighs just about everything else for me. The feel-good chemicals released when working out and feeling good about your physical condition have to have great benefits on your overall health. I have never once left the gym thinking I wish I hadn't done that. But missing the gym for a few days in a row definitely has the opposite effect. I have done resistance training since 14 yrs old. I keep it to about an hour, alternating days between my lower and upper body. I am now well into my sixties and still doing everything I love to do that I could do in my twenties and thirties, unlike most of my friends my age who don't exercise and look and act so much older. I believe if you start young and make it a habit you will live a fuller life in most cases.
How is your back pain at 60 years old as a person who has lifted all his life? Would you say it's not that much different from your 20s? How is your energy overall?
@@perfectlyroundcircle no back pain or joint pain whatsoever. I hike, scuba dive, jet ski like a nut lol. Learned how to shoot pool in the last few years and get right down with chin on the cue. My energy level has decreased over time from those far away days but not bad. What i recommend for those strength training is to learn how to do the exercises correctly.
@@Deep_Divers Very cool then, cause I always doubted people complaining about feeling old at 40 & 50 (very bad pains and low energy). I do, obviously, expect some degeneration, but nowhere near as bad as people say just purely from age, but more like, from an unhealthy lifestyle.
@@perfectlyroundcircle Not all of it stems from an unhealthy lifestyle, some are from injuries sustained along the way or from degenerative diseases that affect bones and muscles. The thing is when you have an unhealthy lifestyle and want to drink excessively, smoke, eat poorly, take drugs, and not exercise, your chances of recovering from injury decrease significantly. Remember certain things are in your control and certain things aren't. Never worry about the things you can't control but take action on the things that are.
@@Deep_Divers Yes, indeed, that is a balanced take on it.
An impressive address of the data from a fitness advocate. It adds significant weight to this information that it was presented by someone with a significant prior, pro-exercise bias. But I think that is where all fit people are. Thank you sir for presenting this information so honestly.
Please consider me if you ever want to hire a videographer, even full-time your work is so thorough and great I would love to contribute in any way I can for and ongoing project of yours or something quick. Or if nothing else I have one thing that I'm hoping I can get you to help me with. I'll pay you man if I have to whatever I can whatever you need just let me know. I just love how your work has a good combination of simplified, clean, thorough overview of the science with what I feel like is really genuine honesty and the perfect dose of humor! :)
150 minutes of actual working out in the gym (as in time actually lifting in your sets) is really alot even if its for a whole week. These days if you are spending 2 hours in the gym, you are literally scrolling Instagram on the bench for at least half the time resting between sets.
Indeed. For me it wasn't clear, maybe I missed it, whether the time here includes resting or it's just pure exercise time. If it's pure, then even 60 min of strength training per week is quite a bit. If a set takes let's say 1min to perform (often less), then that would be already 60 sets.
And one important detail to keep in mind for most people going to the gym: It's the strength which is stronger associated with health benefits than hypertrophy.
i would LOVE to see numbers where they also train cardiovascular stuff and whether that counters or enhances the negative effect
Great talk much appreciated
Would really like to see the same study done for just cardio. A quick search and found a study where a mix of cardio/weight lifting was better than just those things alone. Also, if you guys didn't see it: Staying fit while young linked with 40% lower risk of cancer. That's being in good *cardio* shape when young.
Good shape simply means just being lean
@@rockyp32 Did you dig up the study? They used Swedish registry data used by their military service. They specifically broke everyone down into groups, based on cardio fitness alone. It was not just being lean.
@@jaybanks7718 no I didn’t but I assumed if ur lean with some muscle u probs have good cardio
Also believe in Jesus to be saved and avoid hell
HIT training winning again. 60 intense minutes a week, great results, plus a focus on recovery. And of course I walk a lot.
stay small
@@samsam060402dude, do research on H.I.T tranning then you can say what ever you want.
Great topic. Thank You!
ATG split squats, walking backwards and tibialis raises are by far the best knee and ankle rehab therapy 💎💎💎
Is there a chance that the factor for the increase in overall mortality, cancer and cardiovascular disease and the increase in resistance training per week is a matter of diet? Since people that lift for longer times during the week usually take it more seriously and therefore watch their protein intake. Since eating high amounts of meat, eggs and possibly dairy (for a more efficient intake of protein g/100g) is associated with all of these increases in risk of mortality, cancer etc? Since that would definitely factor into the development of these diseases (knowing that processed meat is a known carcinogen as well as high amounts of meat in a diet, not to mention the cholesterol amounts associated with these amounts of food). I could be totally off but that's my best guess.
An excellent suggestion., leonardo. I think that's incredibly plausible. In that situation, doing a subgroup analysis to separate out protein intake and then another one separating out meat intake would have been stellar to find out. Or, adjustments for a number of covariates (like the ones you mentioned) to see if the association remains or shifts... Going to pin your point.
processed food might be a good point but cholesterol is highly unlikely. We do barely if at all control cholesterol through diet. This was a science fad that is basically disproven (unless we did a u-turn in results in the last year or smth)
@@Physionic I am happy you finaly acknowledge this hypothesis... lol
thank you leonardodicapriojojo
@@Physionicor maybe it’s increased calories, which has been shown ad naseum to cause these issues
*There is no evidence or RCT study or meta analysis of RCT that shows that eating meat, eggs or dairy increase mortality or cancer. Those studies were epidemiological research (food questionnaires) where the "researchers" considered foods such as 'pizza' and 'burgers' to be "red meat". 70% of a pizza is bread, and 70% of a burger is not meat*
*Secondly, the standard western diet IS already a plant based diet. The "meat eaters" in these biased bogus studies are people on standard western diets. Which already is mostly plant-based. No study has EVER been conducted on carnivores who eat ONLY meat*
i love this we must see everything we are animals at the end of the day our ability is to write down and compare and understand what the difference is. it is such a thing that a individual cant keep consistent stress to body even if with the goal of growth and strength. i think its just the overload of it like a chronic stress that makes it bad for the body eventually allowing a disease to win.
holy shit, you are amazing ? I go through millions of research paper and this is an amazing detail I missed. Holy shit man. I love you lol
In this journey back to health I married my greatest weaknesses (laziness, gluttony, slow wit, & vanity) to become my superpowers.
From elite athlete to dying from obesity BACK to real health. Below is my life's work distilled. 🎉
Recovery:
Inclined Sleep Therapy is free & an ancient practice
CPAP
Exercise:
*Rebounder* proven in the 1970s as the most efficient exercise still. Unique health benefits.
Food:
Lean poultry, onions, & sweet potatoes replace unhealthy calories
Dentist gum cleaning
Supplements:
Threonate magnesium, vit.D, creatine, taurine, NAC, methylene blue, & fibers
Nac cause cancer
in my experience, magnesium-threonate gives me diarrhoea everytime. Any tips to reduce/deal with that side effect?
Micronutrient deficient diet.
Watch jay vincent and drew baye lift full body or do split 1-2 x a week one set to failure. Believe in Jesus Christ you’ll receive eternal life or reject and go to hell forever.
Take 5,000 iu d3 daily with 100-200 mcg k2- Mk4 daily. And 500 mg magnesium glycinate at night.
I always though too much muscle mass was hard on the heart. On the other hand, some muscle mass is metabolically healthy. My compromise is to not do cut and bulk cycles, but just recomp at a healthy body fat percentage. I did one bulk cycle and i felt terrible say 220 lbs and couldn't run without hurting my joints. Also had high blood pressure.
I think this study just adds more ammunition to the arguments from the Mike Mentzer crowd. 14 day rotation with a 7 day split. Half the lifts to failure on day one, half the lifts done to failure on day 8. He recommended only a handful of exercises rather than the typical 3 variations of bicep curls approach you see guys using. He said the hardest part was not training more often because it felt wrong. If you'd like to see the results of this approach to giving a muscle 14 days of rest, the most notable would be the quadfather Tom Platz's legs when they were at their biggest. He would only work them twice a month but with extreme intensity. Mentzer also trained Dorian Yates. A lot of websites and fitness gurus ignore his teachings and throw their own spin on the training regimen leading to stunted growth and over training. Listen to the recordings he made if you want to truly grasp the approach.
@@ThiccPickins I was actually talking down on Mentzer's approach not long ago. My argument was that it's easier to grow when you're on steroids. Then again, he trained that way while natural too. Other body builders trained with very high volume with similar results. It seems like there's more than 1 way to skin the cat per se. That being said, Mentzer didn't lift for longevity, he lifted to be huge, and huge he was, but he also died young. (probably due to steroids).
If we take what these studies show, then too much strength training is not good for longevity. Nothing about these studies showed Mentzer's approach to body building was ideal to maximize muscle growth though. I still expect super low volume is not optimal, as there are lots of studies that support the 8-20 sets per muscle group per week.
It's possible that Mentzer, Platz, and Yates had great genetics, great programming, great diet, or just a great steroid regimen. It's also possible that the amount of muscle mass you can build in a lifetime while strength training for 200+ minutes a week is just not great for longevity. That's the conclusion I lean towards. More muscle mass = more stress on your heart, and decreased lifespan. Bulk and cut cycles perhaps accentuate the muscle growth and stress on your heart.
I will be cutting down another 10 pounds or so of fat to get to my lifetime body fat percentage. I already rewrote my programming after seeing this video to focus on strength. I'm happy with the amount of muscle mass I have, and I'm bigger than a lot of guys who are much stronger than me. Maybe I'll try a Mentzer hypertrophy approach once I get my strength up.
@limitisillusion7 It's true that steroid use does allow you to pack on more mass and has been linked to an increased rate of cardiovascular issues. The cause of this increased rate of heart failure is thought to be the resulting myocardial hypertrophy, not the increase in lean body mass. That being said, I'm inclined to agree with you that increased body mass does increase cardiovascular stress. There's also something to be said for other health issues that arise. Obstructive Sleep Apnea, for example, is commonly glossed over as a contribution to poor heart health and is a condition which is so common among body builders that I've seen an increase in CPAP use recommendations on body building forums to people with no diagnosis by other people who also were never diagnosed.
Steroid use actually shortens the training cycle because it speeds up recovery by promoting faster healing. It also requires either heavier lifts or higher volume to achieve failure. Mentzer's method wasn't quite so cut and dry as it always being a 14 rotation, he took an individual approach. If the person he was training could handle 3-6 day splits (which was often the case for endocrinologically enhanced trainees), he'd go that route but still closely monitored their results. I think it's worth mentioning that the magical 14-day time frame is respected by strongmen and powerlifters. They typically cut the weight being used down to around a third of their max for any days they train before a competition. This is just enough to keep practicing the lifts and movements while not stressing their bodies and no weight at all a few days from the meet.
I'm really just trying to point out that you can use the 7 day split and achieve results, whether it's mass or strength gains while still staying within the weekly time limits talked about in this video.
I'm a big fan of your work. Keep it up! Question: what is resistance training? It could be a lot of things. For example, is hanging from a bar considered resistance training? I'd appreciate your reply.
It may have to do with recurrent injury?
140 mins a week is pretty general. If you want granularity how long per session ? I'm 70 and do 3 weight sessions a week but the actual high intensity moments are measured in minutes. The other 3 sessions are fairly strenuous Pilates ~ but that's not weight training .......... well like you I'm not stopping ! Especially now I'm older the feel-good experience after a session makes life worth living
I think it makes sense. You just have to listen to your body with how you feel the next day. I remember when I jogged 60 minutes per day, I was miserable but considered healthy. Yet, it was the only time of my life where I experienced palpitations, headaches, and brain fog frequently.
Really doesn't have to be that way... I'm doing slow Zone 2 jogging mostly and an hour or more every day feels very sustainable. Maybe just do it slower, with less overall load, emphasis on aerobic metabolism? Because that just sounds like you were severely overtrained
@@user-mw2vn7pv8n Makes sense. When I was jogging, I tend to reach 180-190 bpm for most of my jogging session.
My grandpa exercised his entire life every day but in about the last year of his life he stopped. I kinda think he did it on purpose so that his health would decline further. He'd already had a stroke but he was still ambulatory and he could talk. His biggest things were that he couldn't control his right hand and he would say a lot "I can't talk" like he couldn't say what he wanted to but on the outside when you listened to him he sounded fine. I think he stopped exercising though because his wife, my grandma had already passed away and many of his peers and friends had passed away
Great video!
Enjoyed the video, but skeptical of the conclusions. I am 70 years old and lift heavily every week. The results are amazing and the health benefits too. Good luck rehabbing the knee.
Same here, at 69 most think I am in my early 50s, attributable to resistance training. I feel great and the results are amazing indeed.
@@AntiTheismForeverPeople constantly tell me I look great for 80. Sadly I'm only 69. 😅😅😅 Gotta get back to a routine since retiring.
People who lift weights the most are also in groups that may abuse steroids and other drugs. Power lifters, bodybuilders, and professional athletes.
Agreed. I think there might be some correlation here, rather than causation. Even in cases for older individuals, as he said.
Our body is evolved for movement. Walk, Run, Sprint, jump, climb, carry stuff, carry heavy stuff, hunt till the prey is too exhausted to move. I would find it very weird, that following a good exercise routine, without substances that are harmful, we should see an increased risk.
You are doing great !
Very nice video about some intriguing data.
Does similar rate response data exist for endurance training/cardio?
Anything in this about intensity?? Also how do they define resistance training? The spectrum of what people do in the gym around the weights is tremendous. Seems like you shouldn't put those who do high rep low weight with those who low rep higher weight. Also, are you counting the minutes spent lifting in the workout or the total time you spend in the gym? Some people spend hours in the gym but only exercise for minutes.
what a breakdown! legend!
Thank you for this interesting, albeit, somewhat confusing data. Like you, I'm going to continue to strength train. By the way, I am 66 years old, and I have a disability, cerebral palsy.
You rock, Ken.
I have a hard time concluding anything from this other than it's likely due to confounding influences such as steroids, bad diet, poor sleep, overworking the body into a state of constant inflammation. Grind culture etc is rife in the heavy lifter community and you don't need all of them to be doing it to skew results. However, it's interesting research all the same.
Makes me think of contact sport athletes who are at peak physical fitness whilst they compete but come out of it with major injuries, brain damage etc. And yet, they were healthy af for a few years. They just overdid it
Doesn't surprise me. Too much exercise leaves me feeling terrible. I've cut back significantly to just walking every day and I'm slowly increasing it again to see what is a small amount I can do consistently.
It sounds like overtrained to me. You need rest. Especially if you do high intensity training. 4 days of rest is not uncommon.
@@Esico6 I have sleep apnea so what is overtraining for me isn't as much as others.
But I've done a lot of research on this and a recent conclusion I had come to is that more people than you'd think are overtraining so I've been taking it easy, and I feel better.
I just want to find a way of losing some body fat without overtraining or starving.
@@travv88the more u excercise , the more u get sleep apnea,
Is that a question or a statement?@@eggbenedict-gt7mw
I had to switch from 3 days lifting to 2 because, at age 67, I just need the extra recovery time. Still go hard to failure though every time, and bike outside or use elliptical machine on alternate days.
higher end of resistance training is also likely to be correlated with men who are bulking up by increasing their caloric intake and by eating processed foods such as whey protein, creatine, etc., and perhaps even more red meat. These could be factors contributing to the steady increase in risk
This makes me think of the Paul Saladino video that you did, an extraordinary video I should add. If I recall correctly you said in that video you made an analogy using water saying something along the lines of if you drink too little you will die. This doesn't mean drink 32 liters in a day because that will also kill you. So perhaps you found here that there's a happy medium, like there appears to be with LDL. Which is great because it sounds like you've been going above and beyond meaning you can cut back on exercise and put more into making more of these awesome videos!!!
Interesting results and video. I'd guess people who spend hours at the gym each week are much more frequently the type of people who are never satisfied with themselves. Body dysmorphia, workaholism and a general unwillingness to stop and rest would certainly increase stress levels - on top of the acute stress from resistance training.
Also I think the longer someone spends in the gym lifting weights, the less time they’ll have to do cardio, which directly improves cardiovascular health.
@@vtheory7531 Plus, of course, the longer they're in the gym, and at hard-core durations especially, the more likely they are to take steroids, insulin, growth hormone, etc., as well as suffer serious injury.
Also more likely to use heavier weights which by itself could be a risk factor
you are blaming the victim, many people who are unstatisfied with themselves were bullied at school and told in adulthood that they are too fat or skinny, they have to undergo rejection as well, it's not just a self-image issue
Super interesting. I assume they controlled for confounding variables such as anabolic steroid use, high-protein diets or other variables potentially affecting lifespan among heavy lifters?
They did not, unfortunately.
Something not mentioned is diet - if someone is training quite a bit, maybe their protein intake is considerably higher than others (or potentially they don’t get enough to heal the muscle tears in resistance training), maybe the ingredients in their pre workout affects them a certain way over time, etc.
Your hair looks amazing!
My thoughts: it seems to me that other factors could be at play here. Perhaps people who are willing to work out for extended periods of time are more likely to take steroids, which are illegal and dangerous. Since the diseases were talking about only express themselves in a small portion of the overall population, perhaps the weightlifters who take steroids threw off the whole study.
I did 90 minutes of weight training today, and I tend to do about that four times per week. But that's a fairly normal amount. Some people do a lot more. However, most of the time is resting time, of course, and some people take much longer rest periods than others, so how is that factored in? Still, this is concerning, and I'd like to find out more. Can't really see how I can shorten my workouts much, unless I only do a few compound exercises, and forget the rest. But that's not something I want to do.
Same here. I actually rest based on my heart rate. And I only push to absolute failure for one set per exercise one week out of every four.
Nice catch! Wouldnt surprise me if most people missed the age subgroup consequence
It would be interesting to see a similar study for cardio.
There's a tendency to overthink this stuff and I'm not sure why. Zone 2 cardio 80% and intense cardio hating workouts the rest. Pepper resistance training wherever you like. This is a good formula for health and longevity limited only by your genes. The key here is to have a long health span and not be a burden on society as you age. But I think that it's important to consider the centenarians that never exercised. Centenarians all seem to share one thing in common, they're optimists and they're always looking for the next new thing and don't seem stuck in the past. I just watched a video of a centenarian gentleman that smokes a few cigars a week followed by a shots of whisky all on his front porch and seems to have positive things to say about society. Then there's my 93 year old aunt who that spends time on Facebook, still dates and has several shots of tequila a week. I've never heard her lament the past.
Let's don't jump into conclusions and consider confounders (such as, for example, steroid use which is most likely the case with people who exercise more).
A great point, and certainly a possibility. My question, then, is how many people do you think take steroids of the people who lift more weights? If it's a smaller number like 5% or 10%, I doubt that would be sufficient to sway the entire data set upward. What do you think?
@@Physionicthere’s just a lot of factors at this point that in combination may skew the trend upward. I haven’t read the studies myself, but listening to the summary there were a lot of questions that came to my mind:
-what is the resistance training program and overall exercise program these people are doing? Some people who spend a long time lifting weights in the gym often don’t have time or energy to do enough cardio for improving their heart health, which may contribute to the increased cardiovascular risk
-what are the diets and recovery routines of the people in the study? Are they all the same, or different?
-Along with the above, what optional supplements/steroids/etc do they use, if any? People who spend lots of time in the gym may be pro bodybuilders who are more likely to take risky drugs
-What is their stress management like? I saw a comment that some people who spend a long time in the gym may have body dysmorphia/eating disorders or other similar mental issues which may affect their risk levels
-what about the gender, race and ages of the people in the study? Is this trend universal?
-how long was the study conducted for? A few weeks, months, years?
There definitely needs to be more study done breaking down each potential factor before people should panic about these results.
@@Physionic it is, most likely, a smaller number of people that fall in the category of taking steroids. But that's just one of the confounders that might play a role.
Another, as you, unfortunately, found out, could be injuries. Another could be nutrition or behavioral differences between groups (e.g. one group may have the tendency to take more risks - temperamentally) and so on.
The point is that correlation is not causation as you perfectly know. If they haven't controlled for confounders, statistical significance is rather trivial.
I totally love your ability to critique rationally and look at the data and info in several ways to tease out relationships. I have the same ability. I call it a need to learn the fundamental truths based on the info I see, and the correlations I draw. Thank you for all the info and analysis, and please keep on! If youtube shuts you down please find a different platform to produce on, I will definitely follow you!
Great videos my friend, glad to have found your channel. So this is only resistance training after 90 minutes could potentially have detrimental effects? Does that include running/ cardio?