When NOT to use Dirty Electricity filters!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 มิ.ย. 2024
- Dirty Electricity is when all our wondrous gizmos generate noise that couples to the human body from the electrical wiring in our homes, schools, places of work, and so on. Fortunately, there are simple filters you can get that reduce the dangers from this type of noise. UNfortunately, you need to be careful using these filters if you have a backup generator! Join me for a look at one of the pitfalls of D.E. filters.
Links from the vid:
- Dirty Electricity: What it is and how to fix it
• Dirty Electricity: Wha...
- Make your own Dirty Electricity Filters!
• Make your own Dirty El...
- EEK #4: What the heck is Power Factor?
• EEK! #4 - What the hec...
More techie tips: scottiestech.info - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
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Good morning Cletus and Scottie!!! Grabbing my coffee and ready for the new video!! 🖖🏻
I pretty much have no idea what you're talking about but at least I understand dirty electricity lol. Thx Scottie!
You explained that very well. Thanks.
Thank you, and very nice job.
Another problem is your electricity company might charge you for the phase shifted power. They didn't in the past. Now they might. 25uF is massive.
Thanks Scottie! I have a generator transfer panel that isolates a portion of the house electrical wiring from the rest of the system when a switch is manually engaged. I'm wondering if a whole house filter located at the primary electrical panel and which would then be isolated from the generator use, would be ideal? And have you done any research on a diy whole system filter? Thanks again!
In AC a capacitor is simply a frequency dependent resistor. The filter works by simply shorting certain high frequencies against neutral. These filters could therefore interfere with non pure sine waves coming out of a cheap inverter due to its multitude of high frequency waveform artefacts. You might want to check if your generator has something like this and also use your oscilloscope to check its generated waveform for distortions. Beyond a certain frequencies the filter capacitors work like a short cut.
Those em filters screw up your voltage, but not with a true RMS meter. I have a crappy voltmeter that reads high in inductive loaded circuits and low in capacitave loads. The crude voltage regulation of the generator which sets up the field current goes out of whack.
In 1972 a moke exam asked to write a report to your boss in a factory. How.many years to pay back for power factor correction? The tutor pointed it was too complicated for domestic applications. Instead an average charge is made. Now if is easy to do. The power company will likely charge you twice.
I only use electricity that has bathed beforehand 🤷♂️😂
I’m curious about the Monster Power surge protectors I use that have dirty power filtering, they only clean it up for things plugged into it, but that might still be the same kind of capacitance load on the generator. We have an 8kw backup generator with the automated transfer switch, so part of our house automatically gets powered from the generator when the power goes out.
I used to sell them (so I have a lot) as a home theater installer and we had a demonstration kit where we could plug a device into the outlet and listen to the noise on the power line, often you’d even hear A.M. radio stations along with lots of noise from things like wall warts, and then plugging it into the surge protector to show how it cleans up the noise, which it did... hopefully they aren’t going to cause generator problems, but next time it’s running I’ll unplug them all and see what difference it makes to RPM stability and voltage.
Let me know what you discover!
Thank You . . .
I have been struggling to find a solution to getting clean 240V from my 12V off grid solar set up (small 100A Lipo4 with 900w panel array) Every inverter I have tried creates a huge field that makes me nauseous. Even placed far away, the dirty pulses travel through the extension cables. I am a bit at a loss here and am hoping you some ideas around this. Enjoying your channel heaps. Very informative.
If you're particularly sensitive, that's a tricky one... Have you tried a "pure sine wave" inverter? They're not really 'pure', but it might help... Getting an oversized inverter might also help. Ultimately it may be a question of simple trial and error unfortunately, which can get pretty expensive pretty quick!
@@ScottiesTech Yeah, I have tried several pure sine wave inverters. Including a branded and overpowered one. And the last one I tried was a low frequency pure sine wave inverter, based on powerful transformers instead of the high frequency switches. Still a very messy field in which I can't last much more than 20 minutes at a few meter distance. Hmmm.. it is a tricky one and I m running out of options. Thank you very much for your reply!
@@vaskucomperhaps you’ll in the end have to find appliances that run on DC and just skip the inverter
Blue was wrong choice of color for your example, because we tend to thing that oceans are blue already. 🙂
slava ukrajini
Yes water is slightly blue, only noticeable when there's a lot.
I have a lot of experience in the electrical field but I never thought about this. To be fair I also am just looking into this. I wonder if these would negatively effect inverters as well.
Yes, definitely.
Keep on the good 👍
Hi Scottie, I'm in the UK and the upcomming winter power supply issues are looming. I recently tested my standby generator for the house and farm and noticed that the lights were pulsing. I'm guessing that the introduction of modern LED lamps is partly to blame in addition to what is now an aging generator. (3phase 15Kva split into single phases for 3 disribution boards). Following your series of videos and experience about dirty electricity do you think there might be a way of economically cleaning the generated supply at source?
Hmm... First, if the generator is surging, that's the problem. If the RPM is smooth and constant, then it could be an aging regulator in the genny. Does an incandescent bulb pulse on genny power? It could also just be the particular combo/size of loads on each of the 3 phases. The problem with adding capacitors is that sure, they'd smooth out the power - but then you have added capacitance which can cause the problem I mentioned in the vid. In any case, I must confess I'm no expert when it comes to generators.
I have the same problem,
Would adding an RV surge protector between the generator and the house help? If not, how do I shop for a replacement generator regulator that does not have the identical problem.
@@MetroSA-227 As far as I know, there isn't a way to do it, yet... I guess I might have to invent one! ;)
Why didn't you use 1 good net filter (TDK or Enerdoor or what have you) right where the power comes in? Do you really reckon these plugs are better?
How do you feel about type 2 home surge protectors that are install outside the main electrical panel in home? Can you still use the filters? I have a 13KW GE Generator outside my home and if I get the home surge protector will there be an issue with the filters? Thanks again for all your videos.
I actually feel pretty good about whole-house surge protectors. Got one installed! It really, REALLY helped with surges due to living in the boonies and having long aerial power lines. Anyway, they should be perfectly fine to use with D.E. filters.
Electricity to our houses comes from substations aka transformers. Not directly from the power source aka generator. These act more as a buffer (not quite but you get the point). I'm not getting into more details, but that's the main difference. It has nothing to do with "the ocean" 👍
I've worked in this industry from one end to the other where do you think the sub stations get their power? They get it from the generators. It's stepped up and then it steps down it stepped up and it steps way up and then it stepped down according to need and how far it goes
i need a current resistor for ground, for emf mat and emf sheet. do they sell these? i dont want any current "flowing" back into grounding sheet/mat
Hey Scottie, for generator hookups, how about adding an (inductive/capacitive) EMI filter of suitable amperage in parallel with the dirty power filter? Would that correct some of the power factor?
Theoretically, that would do the trick - but it would also change the filtering of the DE units, so may be a bit tricky.
As an electric noobie, does the same concern apply to an off grid solar pannel installation with batteries and an inverter? As is, it's more like a glass of water than an ocean of water.
And, additional question, I won't be charged for my electricity, but I am using KVAs by plugging the DE filters in, is that correct? As I have limited supply, this is something to be mindful off.
Yeah, the same thing applies to solar/battery installations. How bad it would be depends on the inverter, but in most cases it won't be happy with lots of big capacitors attached. The kVA thing is a little more complicated... You're still only 'using' kW, but any capacitive/inductive load skews the power (so to speak), but it depends on the load. I suppose in short, it IS something to be mindful of because your 'glass of water' has WAAAY less wiggle room than the grid. So if you have a solar/battery installation and the inverter is rated 5kVA, the real power you could use will be less - significantly less if you have lots of capacitors or lots of inductors (like motors) as loads to drive. It's like a UPS (battery backup) for a puter: They're rated 500VA, or ~350W.
Sorry about this question, because it does not have anything to do with this video. Do you know anything about CPAP machines and EMF readings. I saw a threat on Facebook that said CPAP machines emit EMF. If that is the case what is your go around to fixing this, because I have been on CPAP for years and have major concerns? Also, my ResMed has a SD card in it for capturing data. The machine has the capability to be put in airplane mode. I am wondering if I put it in airplane mode, will it still store data on the SD card and when I turn take the machine off airplane mode will it upload my sleeping data to myair, where my provider can get the information. I know the machines do a rolling data and can obtain 12 months of data before it starts erasing the oldest data from the previous year. Help, help, help
If your generator is producing a higher level of Total Harmonic distortion(like >5% THD), is there any way to clean that up, or is the only solution to get a younger generator like an inverter?
Hi, So is there something that should be recommended for a generator to clean up or stabilize the power? Thanks in advance. Russ
Theoretically, a gizmo that does active power factor correction would work, but I don't know of any that exist for small installations. Only other option is a bigger generator.
I know this is also a problem with solar inverters. Is that also because the solar inverters carry an inductive load? Would it be possible to have a solar inverter that is capacitive, to make it work with DE filters? I'm really curious to know because people have said the DE filters make DE worse with a solar inverter, and I've never found an explanation, but your video makes me think it's the same situation as a generator? :)
Solar inverters have to "invert" DC into AC. They usually do that in a way that inherently generates lots of noise - unlike a big 3-phase AC generator at the power company, which spits out nice 'pure' sine waves. You can think of inverters as digitally generating a blocky sine wave that then has to be smoothed out. The smoothing is often done with capacitors. In any case, I don't have a solar inverter, so if you get DE filters and try them, lemme know what happens!
@@ScottiesTechmy neighbors solar creates dirty electricity in my home during the day (confirmed with them shutting off solar). Will filters reduce this dirty electricity from neighbors home? Also why exactly are neighbors solar affecting my system and symptoms even when we shut our power off? Thanks!
Would a UPS (uninterupitable power supply) be effected in anyway by dirty electricity filters?
It shouldn't be affected - unless you're using DE filters on a generator and the line voltage is higher than usual - in which case the UPS may switch over to battery power more often to protect the puter against overvoltage. But that also depends on the UPS and how sensitive it is.
What are your thoughts on the whole house dirty electricity filters installed at the box?
This is what I’d like to know. Have you had an answer to this?
Did you manage to find this out?
When I bought my home from the previous owners in 2019 the house came with a outdoor, 13KW GE Generator with a 100am transfer switch. I have 12 Greenwave filters throughout the house. The generator performs a weekly test once a week, which is on Fridays for 20 - 30 minutes. What you are saying is I should unplug all filters prior to this test because I will get a back flow of current that could possible destroy or blow up the generator??? I am going to look at your video a few more times to get a better understanding, so I can share this information with my wife. Would you also suggest that I unplug these filters when I go out the house for a few hours or even when I go out of town on vacation, in case there is a power outage?
Well, it depends on the generator. It shouldn't actually BREAK the genny, because it SHOULD protect itself before any real damage happens. That's just a worst case scenario. It also depends on what else is running, what is plugged in and not running, and how many filters you have plugged in. What I would do is test the voltage when on genny power at any power outlet. If it's normal, you probably don't have to worry. If the voltage is substantially higher than normal, then unplug the DE filters when on genny power. If you're away from home for an extended period, I'd unplug the filters in any case - but if you're just away at work and the voltage on genny power is ok, then no worries.
@@pfunk360 For testing D.E., the greenwave meter is fine. Maybe they gave you some other kind of tester - I dunno! For voltage check, one of these is handy: amzn.to/3eZTMAK It tests for proper wiring + shows voltage.
Couldn't dirty electricity be sorted out in a more centralized / right at the source way, instead of silly plugged-in stuff everywhere around the house?
The dirtyness is being introduced everywhere in the house by everything else being plugged in, especially things like switch mode power supplies which most Wall warts are these days. If you just filtered the power at the meter it would provide the house with clean power but then all the gadgets in the house would dirty it up unless they were plugged into pricey filtering surge protectors that keep the noise isolated.
Can i plug into the plug ground with a ground rod to move dirty eletricity from house to outside yard?
Unfortunately, no.
👍👍👍
What about inverter generators?
It depends, but many have the same problem.
I was so optomistic that I had found a solution to the high THD (5 to 20%) electricity produced by typical open frame generators with your other videos. Then you drop this bomb on my idea.
So what options are there to cleaning up the THD of these cheaper genies to get below 5% so as to not damage our more sensitive home electronics?
I understand inverter genies are best for this, but most are low wattage ( 4000W peak and under) and don't have 240V plugs that us with a well need to power our pumps.
I'm really trying to avoid using a battery bank setup to clean the power being supplied to the house. The cost and constant up keep is just not ideal for someone who is only using it for emergency situations. And so far I've found no out of the box solution for this. I can't possibly be the only one out here looking for this?
I have no idea. My genny is a rather large 3-phase 20kVA unit - outputs nice clean sine waves - And it STILL has this problem. It seems to be an inherent limitation, and I don't know of any way around it. There's got to be one, but... What? That is the question. It's been taxing my brain lately...
I bought a new Ryobi 6500W, gas powered portable generator a week ago thinking I could use it to provide power to my living room in case of a power outage. In my instruction manual, it states to not plug in a TV, computer or other sensitive electronics because it puts out dirty power and would damage these items. At that point I got a sinking feeling in my stomach because I can't get a refund on the generator and everything in my living room is sensitive electronic equipment. (computer, cable TV, TV, sound system, modem, phone charger and an electronic thermostat controlled 1500 watt space heater) I found the Green Wave DE filter and thought it would work for me. If I keep my power usage down to a minimum, say 2000W, could I use the Green Wave DE filter? I'm thinking of your blue die analogy into a gallon instead of a glass of water since I'm producing three times what I'm using. Should I sell this generator and just buy a true sine wave generator? (so expensive) Is there something on the market I could buy to fix my problem?
Adding DE filters might make the problem worse. You might get away with it if you keep power usage low. Another thing some people do is to connect a UPS (battery backup) to their generator. That takes the 'dirty' AC and normally passes it through. If the gen power gets too nasty, the UPS cuts in and inverts the DC power from its battery into AC, thus protecting the electronic gizmos. However, that really depends on the UPS, so you'd have to get one preferably that somebody out there has tested with your kind of generator. Don't feel bad though... My generator is a 3-phase AC 'pure sine wave' version - 18kW. Despite that, it STILL doesn't like D.E. filters, and too much capacitance or inductance makes it very unhappy. So, genny power is always going to be crappier than when you're on the grid. In the event of an emergency though, just keeping the basics powered is a huge help.
Most electronic devices today use switched power supplies and can deal with a wide range of voltage and frequencies... Adding hokey devices just adds complication and can screw up the power factor which messes with the generator regulation
You kinda blew past the health benefits, or lack there of, pretty quickly. You haven’t noticed anything? If not, why bother with filters? What are the benefits other than health?
@gordonslightandsoundllc5878 You are asking the real question. If there is no harm to anyone's health from so-called "dirty electricity", then there is no problem to be solved. In 1976, the New Yorker magazine ran a long article over a 2-month period (because it was so long) making a case for the harm to human health caused by electric and magnetic fields from power lines. The author was a man in the UK, whose name I don't recall. Years later researchers and scholars realized that no one could find adequate evidence to verify the man's claims. Sometime in the last 15 years or so, I saw where the New Yorker apologized for publishing the article because of lack of evidence showing harm to people, pets, or farm animals caused by electric or magnetic fields created by the electrical power industry. All that is meant by "dirty electricity" is that the electricity into our homes and businesses is not only at the fundamental frequency of 50 Hz or 60 Hz, but some of the power delivered to devices in our homes is at higher frequencies. The bulk of the power delivered to each device is at the fundamental frequency, but smaller amounts of power are delivered at higher frequencies. And even though the frequency of the highest harmonic may be around 8 megahertz, its amplitude will be a tiny fraction of the fundamental and there is no reason to think that 8 megahertz has any detrimental impact on a biological system. AM radio transmitters intentionally radiate thousands of watts of electromagnetic (EM) waves at around 1 megahertz. FM radio transmitters do the same at frequencies around 100 megahertz. Even frequencies of EM waves of 600,000 gigahertz do not harm the body, unless the waves carry a lot of power, which is rare in ordinary circumstances. Oh, by the way, EM waves with a frequency of 600,000 gigahertz are green EM waves, i.e., green light that you can see with your eyes. Where relatively low-power EM waves begin to be harmful for biological organisms is at frequencies higher than that of visible light, such as UV light, x-rays, and gamma rays. These are known as ionizing rays, which do indeed cause us harm.
can i use it together with a noblek?