I don't understand the recommendation to use singular "they" when you don't know a person's preferred pronouns. I'm not a big fan of singular "they" in general, but I'm aware that there's a long history of using singular "they" when you don't know if the person being referred to is male or female, and I use it that way myself. But I'm not aware of any history, other than limited cases in the past few years, of using singular "they" when you *do* know the person's sex, but you don't know the person's preferred pronouns. To me, this recommendation seems to be ideologically driven, rather than a guideline based on standard accepted usage. I'm aware of at least one person who uses "they" this way, namely maths TH-camr Matt Parker. In his videos, he refers to everyone as "they," even historical figures whose sex is clearly known. But that usage sounds jarring to me, because I don't hear anyone else doing that. (In fact, I'm not sure if he does this because he's all-in on gender ideology, or because he's subtly poking fun at it.) On a different topic, Karen is a beautiful name. I hate the way that it has become a derogatory term in our culture. I intentionally never use "Karen" in the modern derogatory sense, out of respect for women named Karen.
I can see how this is confusing or new. I mean, I was confused and not sure, which is why I asked! I think it's implied in the question that there's some reason the writer is unsure about the person's pronouns. If they weren't unsure, they wouldn't be asking what to do, and I think that underlies the guidance. Also, we usually think we know someone's sex based on looks, and that's why I said something like "If the picture is a stereotypical 'little old lady,' should I presume the person is female and uses 'she'?" But maybe it's presumptuous to look at someone and decide that you know based just on appearance. In many cases, I probably would presume and use that pronoun, but if someone realizes they aren't sure, I think that's where the "use 'they' if you don't know" advice comes in.
Here is some info about how old the non-binary usage is. "Seventeenth-century medical texts used the singular ‘they’ to refer to hermaphrodites, contradicting Jordan Peterson’s claim that historically the singular ‘they’ has only been used in sentences with indefinites, and not to refer to people who exist beyond the sex binary. " The article goes on to give other examples. So the non-binary use looks new to us but it's not. And of course, as you noted, the other use of singular they goes back centuries. www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v42/n13/amia-srinivasan/he-she-one-they-ho-hus-hum-ita
Wow! You and Karen were wonderful.
I enjoyed the podcast.
Thanks!
Wow, I am so impressed that you two were able to have a conversation about this subject without using the words "woke" or "politically correct." 😄
"Grammar Girl" title is friendly and catchy sounding.
Thanks!
I don't understand the recommendation to use singular "they" when you don't know a person's preferred pronouns. I'm not a big fan of singular "they" in general, but I'm aware that there's a long history of using singular "they" when you don't know if the person being referred to is male or female, and I use it that way myself. But I'm not aware of any history, other than limited cases in the past few years, of using singular "they" when you *do* know the person's sex, but you don't know the person's preferred pronouns. To me, this recommendation seems to be ideologically driven, rather than a guideline based on standard accepted usage.
I'm aware of at least one person who uses "they" this way, namely maths TH-camr Matt Parker. In his videos, he refers to everyone as "they," even historical figures whose sex is clearly known. But that usage sounds jarring to me, because I don't hear anyone else doing that. (In fact, I'm not sure if he does this because he's all-in on gender ideology, or because he's subtly poking fun at it.)
On a different topic, Karen is a beautiful name. I hate the way that it has become a derogatory term in our culture. I intentionally never use "Karen" in the modern derogatory sense, out of respect for women named Karen.
I can see how this is confusing or new. I mean, I was confused and not sure, which is why I asked!
I think it's implied in the question that there's some reason the writer is unsure about the person's pronouns. If they weren't unsure, they wouldn't be asking what to do, and I think that underlies the guidance.
Also, we usually think we know someone's sex based on looks, and that's why I said something like "If the picture is a stereotypical 'little old lady,' should I presume the person is female and uses 'she'?" But maybe it's presumptuous to look at someone and decide that you know based just on appearance. In many cases, I probably would presume and use that pronoun, but if someone realizes they aren't sure, I think that's where the "use 'they' if you don't know" advice comes in.
Here is some info about how old the non-binary usage is.
"Seventeenth-century medical texts used the singular ‘they’ to refer to hermaphrodites, contradicting Jordan Peterson’s claim that historically the singular ‘they’ has only been used in sentences with indefinites, and not to refer to people who exist beyond the sex binary. "
The article goes on to give other examples. So the non-binary use looks new to us but it's not. And of course, as you noted, the other use of singular they goes back centuries.
www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v42/n13/amia-srinivasan/he-she-one-they-ho-hus-hum-ita