Well described video. Because of the very slim margin for error, I personally I don't like to travel on a glacier with one other person, but I know people do it all the time. If you do, tying stopper knots makes a lot of sense. If I were to travel with just one other person, I would want them to be very skilled with self arrest and with crevasse rescue so they could help me if I fell in. In this case, each person should have extra rope. A 50m rope can be divided into thirds and the middle section would be the part that connects the two climbers. Once the stopper knots are tied in, this section would be shorter (around 40 feet) than the two ends (that each climber carries) and would thus be long enough to reach a fallen climber with enough extra rope to connect to an anchor (so the fallen climber can ascend out) or to be set up as a haul system if the climber is unable to ascend.
Hi Tony! Thanks so much for adding these excellent thoughts. When both people are carrying coils I usually like to have a 60m rope so I have enough rope for knots and can maintain more than 10 meters between climbers (usually 13m, except on large glaciers in Alaska or the Arctic where I might have 15m between climbers on a two-person team) and still have enough rope left-over to perform a rescue using a drop-loop system (either a 2:1, 2:1 assist, or 6:1 system depending on the scenario. A 50m WILL work just fine for a 3:1, but this doesn't always work if there is a lot of friction at the lip). With a 50m rope you might be limited to around 10m between climbers, and may not have enough rope for knots between climbers. Each climber would need to carry 20m to reach the 10m to the fallen climber in the crevasse (who is tied-in 10m away), and the 10m back up out of the hole and back to the anchor (20m rescue coils on climber one + 20m rescue coils on climber 2 + 10m between climbers is 50m, but that's without knots tied. With knots the distance between climbers is less than 10m). You can use an extended mater point to accommodate this, so it will certainly work, but you can't get much more than 10m between climbers- especially if you're tying knots which eat-up rope. With a 60m rope I can measure-out 15m, tie knots which eat-up rope, which gives me just about 13m between climbers. Each climber then carries 22.5m of rescue rope, which gives you the 13m to reach your climber, and just under 10m to come back out of the hole to a master point that is extended from the anchor. This makes me feel a bit better by making sure I have more distance between me and the crevasse, and sufficient knots to provide some braking action. If there aren't any technical pitches on my route I will sometimes have each end climber carry a light-wight glacier tech cord, such as a Petzl RAD line, instead of rescue coils which can help keep weight and bulk down. Hope this is helpful info!
It seems to me that the distance between the two party members is pretty short, isn't it? Following the advice of 10 minus the number of people in the rope party, shouldn't the amount of armspans be at least 8? You only have 6,5. What are your thoughts on that? Great video, thank you so much!
Ah, this is a great question! Thanks for asking. I actually start with 8.5 of my arm lengths between climbers. In this system I am using knots, which take-up rope. One butterfly knot takes-up about 22 inches of rope, and I have 6 of them (132 inches or 11 ft of rope used in knots). 11 ft is about 2 arm lengths for me. So here's the arm-length math: 1.5 arm lengths between myself and the first knot, 0.5 to second knot, 0.5 to 3rd knot, 1.5 to the 4th knot, 0.5 to the 5th, 0.5 to the 6th, 1.5 to my partner, and 2 to account for rope that is needed to tie knots (1.5 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 1.5 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 1.5 + 2 = 8.5 arm lengths). Once the knots are tied then 8.5 arm lengths of rope becomes 6.5 arm lengths of distance between the two climbers. And if you'd like more context for arm lengths: Some people have shorter arm spans, and some people have longer arm spans. My 8.5 are going to be more like 9 for people whose arms are shorter, and more like 8 for people whose arms are longer. Arm spans do not measure the same amount of rope for every person, but they are useful as a way to keep track of whether I need to add or subtract relative distance between climbers. If I am traveling on a glacier with larger crevasses (like in Alaska), with heavier loads (like sleds), and in soft snow (like early season in the PNW), then generally I will want to add length (and therefore arm spans) between team members. I may want to have 10 or even 12 arm spans between climbers, and then add knots, or perhaps NOT add knots if I will be using running protection along a traverse for example. This would likely require a 60m rope rather than a 40m depending upon my preferred rescue system. Similarly, if I have a light pack, steep terrain, a hard snow surface, or open crevasses that are close in proximity to one another, then I might choose to shorten my rope even though I am traveling as a party of 2. This is because I might be more worried about a slip and fall that ends in an open crevasse below me than I am about a punch through a soft snow bridge in low angle terrain. In other words, each time the condition of the snow on the surface changes (hard to soft or soft to hard) each time the angle changes (steep vs. low angle) and each time my load changes I will consider changing the length of my rope. On glacier climbs without belayed climbing I might change the length 3 or 4 times over the course of an 8hr climb. Hopefully this explains the rope distances and provides a bit of context for the way a rope is used in glacial terrain. Thanks so much for the excellent question!
That's a great question @truchitoloco! If crevasse fall is the primary danger (as opposed to slip-and-fall) it is usually best to have the most experienced person (the leader) go first. This is for two reasons: 1. Crevasse falls frequently result in injury to the falling climber or to those arresting the fall on the surface. Because of this avoidance is paramount. By positioning the most experienced person at the front of the team where terrain can be seen more clearly, you dramatically reduce the likelihood of a crevasse fall for everyone in the group- including the leader. 2. Leaders in glaciated terrain should be experts in self-rescue from a crevasse, and should be able to ascend out of a crevasse on their own without assistance unless they are severely injured. Additionally, partner rescue from a crevasse is a complex skill that requires a high level of knowledge and ability. When partner rescue systems are set-up incorrectly, catastrophic failure of the rescue system is possible, which could result in more members of the climbing team falling into the crevasse and becoming injured. For these reasons organizations and companies that operate in glaciated terrain tend to favor the most experienced team members being at the front, and multiple rope teams traveling together so experienced help remains on the surface in the event of a crevasse fall. Let me know if that answers your question!
@@skillsforclimbing what if you are ascending...and you have 1 partner significantly heavier 60 lbs... safer to have him in the back vs. leading ? hard to drg 65 extra pounds uphill even if i am more experienced in glacial travel...???
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Excellent! Very informative as usual! I've learned a ton from all of your videos. Thank you
Many thanks @fitdoc565!
Well described video. Because of the very slim margin for error, I personally I don't like to travel on a glacier with one other person, but I know people do it all the time. If you do, tying stopper knots makes a lot of sense. If I were to travel with just one other person, I would want them to be very skilled with self arrest and with crevasse rescue so they could help me if I fell in. In this case, each person should have extra rope. A 50m rope can be divided into thirds and the middle section would be the part that connects the two climbers. Once the stopper knots are tied in, this section would be shorter (around 40 feet) than the two ends (that each climber carries) and would thus be long enough to reach a fallen climber with enough extra rope to connect to an anchor (so the fallen climber can ascend out) or to be set up as a haul system if the climber is unable to ascend.
Hi Tony! Thanks so much for adding these excellent thoughts. When both people are carrying coils I usually like to have a 60m rope so I have enough rope for knots and can maintain more than 10 meters between climbers (usually 13m, except on large glaciers in Alaska or the Arctic where I might have 15m between climbers on a two-person team) and still have enough rope left-over to perform a rescue using a drop-loop system (either a 2:1, 2:1 assist, or 6:1 system depending on the scenario. A 50m WILL work just fine for a 3:1, but this doesn't always work if there is a lot of friction at the lip). With a 50m rope you might be limited to around 10m between climbers, and may not have enough rope for knots between climbers. Each climber would need to carry 20m to reach the 10m to the fallen climber in the crevasse (who is tied-in 10m away), and the 10m back up out of the hole and back to the anchor (20m rescue coils on climber one + 20m rescue coils on climber 2 + 10m between climbers is 50m, but that's without knots tied. With knots the distance between climbers is less than 10m). You can use an extended mater point to accommodate this, so it will certainly work, but you can't get much more than 10m between climbers- especially if you're tying knots which eat-up rope. With a 60m rope I can measure-out 15m, tie knots which eat-up rope, which gives me just about 13m between climbers. Each climber then carries 22.5m of rescue rope, which gives you the 13m to reach your climber, and just under 10m to come back out of the hole to a master point that is extended from the anchor. This makes me feel a bit better by making sure I have more distance between me and the crevasse, and sufficient knots to provide some braking action. If there aren't any technical pitches on my route I will sometimes have each end climber carry a light-wight glacier tech cord, such as a Petzl RAD line, instead of rescue coils which can help keep weight and bulk down. Hope this is helpful info!
It seems to me that the distance between the two party members is pretty short, isn't it? Following the advice of 10 minus the number of people in the rope party, shouldn't the amount of armspans be at least 8? You only have 6,5. What are your thoughts on that?
Great video, thank you so much!
Ah, this is a great question! Thanks for asking. I actually start with 8.5 of my arm lengths between climbers. In this system I am using knots, which take-up rope. One butterfly knot takes-up about 22 inches of rope, and I have 6 of them (132 inches or 11 ft of rope used in knots). 11 ft is about 2 arm lengths for me. So here's the arm-length math: 1.5 arm lengths between myself and the first knot, 0.5 to second knot, 0.5 to 3rd knot, 1.5 to the 4th knot, 0.5 to the 5th, 0.5 to the 6th, 1.5 to my partner, and 2 to account for rope that is needed to tie knots (1.5 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 1.5 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 1.5 + 2 = 8.5 arm lengths). Once the knots are tied then 8.5 arm lengths of rope becomes 6.5 arm lengths of distance between the two climbers.
And if you'd like more context for arm lengths:
Some people have shorter arm spans, and some people have longer arm spans. My 8.5 are going to be more like 9 for people whose arms are shorter, and more like 8 for people whose arms are longer. Arm spans do not measure the same amount of rope for every person, but they are useful as a way to keep track of whether I need to add or subtract relative distance between climbers.
If I am traveling on a glacier with larger crevasses (like in Alaska), with heavier loads (like sleds), and in soft snow (like early season in the PNW), then generally I will want to add length (and therefore arm spans) between team members. I may want to have 10 or even 12 arm spans between climbers, and then add knots, or perhaps NOT add knots if I will be using running protection along a traverse for example. This would likely require a 60m rope rather than a 40m depending upon my preferred rescue system.
Similarly, if I have a light pack, steep terrain, a hard snow surface, or open crevasses that are close in proximity to one another, then I might choose to shorten my rope even though I am traveling as a party of 2. This is because I might be more worried about a slip and fall that ends in an open crevasse below me than I am about a punch through a soft snow bridge in low angle terrain. In other words, each time the condition of the snow on the surface changes (hard to soft or soft to hard) each time the angle changes (steep vs. low angle) and each time my load changes I will consider changing the length of my rope. On glacier climbs without belayed climbing I might change the length 3 or 4 times over the course of an 8hr climb.
Hopefully this explains the rope distances and provides a bit of context for the way a rope is used in glacial terrain. Thanks so much for the excellent question!
should tge leader in this setup be behind ? Because if he goes 1st abd falls into a crevasse, how can the other guy save him without excess rope ?
That's a great question @truchitoloco! If crevasse fall is the primary danger (as opposed to slip-and-fall) it is usually best to have the most experienced person (the leader) go first. This is for two reasons:
1. Crevasse falls frequently result in injury to the falling climber or to those arresting the fall on the surface. Because of this avoidance is paramount. By positioning the most experienced person at the front of the team where terrain can be seen more clearly, you dramatically reduce the likelihood of a crevasse fall for everyone in the group- including the leader.
2. Leaders in glaciated terrain should be experts in self-rescue from a crevasse, and should be able to ascend out of a crevasse on their own without assistance unless they are severely injured. Additionally, partner rescue from a crevasse is a complex skill that requires a high level of knowledge and ability. When partner rescue systems are set-up incorrectly, catastrophic failure of the rescue system is possible, which could result in more members of the climbing team falling into the crevasse and becoming injured. For these reasons organizations and companies that operate in glaciated terrain tend to favor the most experienced team members being at the front, and multiple rope teams traveling together so experienced help remains on the surface in the event of a crevasse fall.
Let me know if that answers your question!
@@skillsforclimbing what if you are ascending...and you have 1 partner significantly heavier 60 lbs... safer to have him in the back vs. leading ? hard to drg 65 extra pounds uphill even if i am more experienced in glacial travel...???
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