Best Of: The Men - and Boys - Are Not Alright
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 พ.ย. 2024
- We recently did an episode on the strange new gender politics that have emerged in the 2024 election. But we only briefly touched on the social and economic changes that underlie this new politics - the very real ways boys and men have been falling behind.
In March 2023, though, we dedicated a whole episode to that subject. Our guest was Richard Reeves, the author of the 2022 book “Of Boys and Men: Why the Modern Male Is Struggling, Why It Matters, and What to Do About It (www.brookings....) ,” who recently founded the American Institute for Boys and Men (aibm.org/why-w...) to develop solutions for the gender gap he describes in his research. He argues that you can’t understand inequality in America today without understanding the specific challenges facing men and boys. And I would add that there’s no way to fully understand the politics of this election without understanding that, either. So we’re rerunning this episode, because Reeves’s insights on this feel more relevant than ever.
We discuss how the current education system places boys at a disadvantage, why boys raised in poverty are less likely than girls to escape it, why so many young men look to figures like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate for inspiration, what a better social script for masculinity might look like and more.
Mentioned:
"Gender Achievement Gaps in U.S. School Districts (files.eric.ed....) " by Sean F. Reardon, Erin M. Fahle, Demetra Kalogrides, Anne Podolsky and Rosalia C. Zarate
"Redshirt the Boys (www.theatlanti...) " by Richard Reeves
Book recommendations:
"The Tenuous Attachments of Working-Class Men (pubs.aeaweb.or...) " by Kathryn Edin, Timothy Nelson, Andrew Cherlin and Robert Francis
Career and Family (press.princeto...) by Claudia Goldin
The Life of Dad (www.simonandsc...) by Anna Machin
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast (www.nytimes.co...) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at www.nytimes.co... (www.nytimes.co...) .
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld, Rogé Karma and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Mixing by Sonia Herrero. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Carol Sabouraud and Kristina Samulewski.
Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts (nytimes.com/pod...) or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
I'm disappointed that this conversation about masculinity that lasted nearly 2 hours did not talk about mentorship. In my view, having access to mentorship as a boy, young man and middle-aged man is the most important concern today in regards to maturation in men. Maybe the closest they came to talking about that topic was the notion ontological security, but they did not go into it at all - how a sense of self is engrained in the psyche over time.
You are correct, 100%.
"mentorship" is a faddy buzzword ... middle aged men looking for mentors need to reassess their lives. Bloated egos who think they should be mentors to others coz they're so damn great also need to reassess their lives. Boys don't need mentors, just good parent(s)
To be fair, he talks about a study done around community college mentoring programs at 38:33. Same results. Women fared better when controlled for other variables.
I also thought that the difference between boys and girls in lower income families might have to do with the father (mentor/role model) being absent.
Let me add that I’m not just talking about class. I am middle class, went through a divorce with a man that was largely absent after and my daughter adapted far faster than my son
Men are wonderful and i fully support research into how to support boys and men. The feminism movement was never about getting back at men but bring women alongside. Feminism still has many ongoing issues to fix but we don't want men falling behind in other areas either.
We both know that is a lie
@@petervizzini4006 Gosh, darn it.. I only had to scroll down 3 comments to find the misogynist rebuttal. 🙄 Perhaps @zoeolsson5683 should have been just a tiny little bit more clear... It was about getting your fking boots off of our necks, Mr. J. D. Vance. Only weak men are threatened by women. Only weak men have to oppress women. Only a weak man thinks anything a woman does to better herself is a threat to him.
Feminists tell us to follow them to equality while they plant landmines behind them
Maybe not for all of you. But you embraced the ones who are mostly interested in revenge. So like it or not, that's what you're about until you stop embracing and defending them
That may have been the goal of feminism a long time ago, but that feminism is dead and gone. Third wave feminism is about power, misandry, and foolishness.
This has been a fascinating discussion, thank you. As a father of 3 daughters and a pro-feminist man, I was surprised that there was no discussion of western societies valorization of men's capacity for violence. Not that those who identify as women are not capable of violence but society have many industries inviting men into violent ways of being. Young men are submerged in the practice of ranking themselves in the 'skills' of violent activity, think video games, 'contact' sports and representations of military action.
Aren't the orchids explained by placing young human 'males' in the socially ambiguous position of eliciting a capacity for violence and simultaneously demanding that they not act upon this valorized capacity, until the sporting club or ruling elite require them.
Ask yourself, haven't you thought of yourself as a threat, simply by being a man? Walking in the opposite direction to a woman on the same footpath? We are encouraged to cross over and understandably so, men are the agents of violence against women.
The subject position we ask young men to take up, especially in contemporary western societies is structurally unstable, violence is good, violence is bad. The recruitment into violence is pervasive and under erasure. Only those young men with sufficient cultural resources are able to navigate this toxic subjectivity.
Women are increasingly asked to take up violent ways of being. We are starting to see young women perform historically masculine pathologies; self harm, increasing risk taking, increasing rates of crimes against another.
With all other primates, males are innately more physically aggressive, and it seems the case with almost all human societies too. I'm not sure how much of male violence is due to western culture vs. simply a lack of good male role models, especially teachers & fathers. Being raised without a dad is known to increase the risk of behavioral problems and triples the risk of delinquency. The US has the world's highest rate of that
@@beemo9 I appreciate your conjecture about primates, except for the Bonobo, I think you are correct. But I don't think biology determines behaviour, it certainly predisposes behavour, biology provides the preconditions for complex behaviour but never determines in the modern social world.
I’m a male who taught elementary school for 11 years and loved it. But it’s not a career than you can raise a family on. I chose to start my own business and worked much better for me and my family.
there's an old African proverb the goes something like "if a village doesn't not embrace it's young men then they will burn down the village to feel it's warmth"
"It takes a child, to raze a village"
You did stupendously, sir. Thank you!
The bit at around 1:32:00 ish about institutions being really important for men is incredibly interesting and probably needs to be explored more. I can see that weekly or monthly meeting of people as being a key way to meet and form relationships for men that wouldn’t happen otherwise.
All teachers in the US should make $100k per year. Quality of employees, quality of education would go up and good employees would stay in the teaching profession.
We raise boys and girls differently. At home, in culture, and in institutions. We teach boys to focus on the moment and girls to focus on the future. Plus our culture is set up to not give out any second chances. It’s very hard to succeed (financially and therefore in life) without being perfect from childhood. And a lot of those factors that go into being perfect are out of our control. It’s a rigged game for everyone one but those little differences in how we raise genders really get amplified.
I disagree. i’ve observed boys being raised to think of future success… and women, up until a couple decades ago, were still being raised to be home makers now.
@@claireconover That's true. But even during those days, boys were raised to become "providers". Today, we don't do that and it must've been one of those reasons. Hope things can be rectified soon.
We weren't really raised to focus on anything except a long list of what NOT to be. Worked out great
It's absolutely bizarre to me that concern for male education, welfare and outcomes could be labelled a "right-wing talking point". Ezra seems almost sheepish and embarrassed to discuss the topic, as though he could be accused of a betrayal of left-wing values.
This is a dangerous trend for all American families and the left generally. The Democratic Party's most solid base was working men until at least the late 1970s.
Agreed. It’s not even in conflict with his left wing values. So frustrating as far as what this reveals about culture on the left
It's pathetic that the CDC's site didn't mention mens' disparities, but instead discussed LGBT, minorities, etc. This gives fuel to the right wing argument that our institutions have been captured by "woke" ideology, causing the left to further distance themselves from mens' issues. To make progress, the left needs to not be afraid to say no to its progressives
Maybe the left was about the working man decades ago, but not anymore. They've done nothing but demonize men for years now, and because the consequences of that are rearing their head they're now trying to reverse course. But it's too late, the damage has been done.
Very interesting interview. I felt the guest did not have an agenda but told us what he found and when he changed his mind on certain ideas.
l was struck by the last third of the show that explored Petersen and Tate and shaping men, there wasn't a single mention of the role of the father!!!!
Scott Galloway would be great guest for this topic.
Awe. The son thinking only women could be doctors makes me so sad. 😢. It reminds of when I was in kindergarten and told a girl she couldn’t be a doctor because men were doctors and women are nurses. (I thought they were gendered terms for the same thing at the time). Anyway she started crying and I learned something that day. lol. It’s true tho. Kids reflect the world they see. 😕
It's worse than you suggest: because the barriers against women entering medicine are so high, the result is that women doctors are comprehensively more competent, intelligent, and caring than male ones.
@@TheDavidlloydjones Do you have any source to prove this ? Also I don't think those "barriers" you talking about are as high as you might think during these days.
We all compare ourselves to others. When I was young, I remember that boys were valued more than girls. Young boys knew this and I even heard them say that they were glad they weren’t a girl. Young women were urged to get married, they didn’t get equal pay and often had to resign their jobs upon marriage. ‘Their role’ was basically to be mothers and to serve their husbands. This was normal life. Young boys grew up with an innate sense of superiority and the engrained feeling that they were the better sex. This gave them a sense of self esteem that was not really earned. As adults their control of the money, combined with their greater physical strength, gave them power vis a vis women.
With the rise of feminism , equal opportunities for women and anti discrimination legislation, (combined with the greater discipline of women) they have lost this sense of superiority, power and status that they previously had.
That’s why many of them seem confused and ‘lost’.
And, incidentally, that’s why there’s a backlash against feminism and a rise in misogyny.
What you fundamentally fail to understand is that there's a new generation of men who weren't alive during these circumstances you mercilessly blame them for. You reap what you sow
My 2 cents of life experience: having a now 28 year old son I saw much of this first hand. He's doing fine but he didn't hit his stride until about 26. I understand the frontal lobe for boys is completely developed far later than girls (25 for boys which is why they can't rent a car before then) and all along the parenting journey the girls were FAR ahead of the boys beginning in kindergarten. The girls, as a rule, had it together "out of the gate" but as a rule the boys did not. The kindergarten was filled with boys wanting to run around and had difficulty sitting down and the girls were writing the alphabet, reading, etc. All through the school experience it held true that the girls matured much earlier and were ready for adulthoodmuch earlier. Even post high school into college, my son struggled but made it through. I would say that only now, in his 28th year do I detect mature conversation ability where I can have more of a peer to peer conversation, whereas I could have a similar conversation with a middle school girl with could be on the same level. It has astounded me througout my parenting experience that the boys were, again as a rule, far behind the girls by every measure but most notably in the area of maturity. Girls are usually ready to be adults but it takes much longer for the boys to be interested in being an adult and the responsibilities that entails. They seem happy to remain in childhood much longer.
Girls are often forced to be adults and boys are allowed to remain immature... no?
Are you serious about that part of your son only having the conversation ability of a middle school girl at 28?
In my view Title 9 primarily impacted sports financially. But the big message to girls, who had previously internalized their perceived inferiority, opened their minds to equality.
I think developmental issues social and physical are definitely important at the key ages of 5 and 15yoa. I was 9-12 months younger than my peers throughout pre- college schooling due to my birthdate in early fall. Intellectually this was less than an issue than my social development which was problematic due to being an oldest child and by school years being an introvert. Introversion tends to single out children to some power shifting behaviors that stem from or are in fact expressed as bullying. It never occurred to me until 2020's that my birthdate in the fall impacted how I got along in school particularly with my peer relations. Interesting study analysis here.
Only about 20 minutes in, but truly how much of the performance difference in certain skills between boys and girls about socialization vs. biology? In both my personal experience and the experiences of my women friends, girls are socialized more growing up into gender roles that beget organization and other skills. From childhood, girls are socialized into roles of care takers whereas boys are socialized as needing to be care taken. It feels like that would play a bigger role than biology given that there doesn’t seem to be much evidence or evolutionary aspects to support girls maturing faster than boys. And given that girls are expected to mature faster (add in dimensions of race when talking about Black and Latina girls in particular) how does that translate into behavioral expectations for girls compared to boys? It seems like it’s less socially acceptable for girls to slack off compared to boys which I think would also play a role in school performance.
I mean, we are talking about how, literally and measurably by neuroscience, girls' brains develop faster. Their hormones ramp up faster, they hit measurable developmental milestones from secondary sexual development to growth spurts 1-2 years faster than boys. In fact, there are a number of measurable characteristics which are semi-gendered - that is a number of characteristics in which men or women tend towards respectively, but not exclusively. And we know this. We know that men get colourblindness at a drastically higher rate, and that the ability to see into the near ultraviolet is almost exclusive to women. We know that sexual dimorphism is a thing. Acting like there are no cognitive or developmental differences is an inherently harmful attitude. Socialization matters, certainly - after all, I can't remember the last time a stem boot camp which accepted boys was put on in my community, or the last time opportunities were afforded for boys to talk to men in leadership happened in my school district. But it is naive to think that there aren't a range of physiological difference impacting these children and young adults.
These differences aren't as big as they seem. They overlap a lot just the median is different.
I think the school system doesn't really model optimal childhood development any child .... In a better designed school system we would have biological and socioeconomic variances mitigation so a child could meet their full potential
Are there any statistics on whether gay boys fare better, worse, or differently, in school than straight boys?
I think boys challenges in school are centered around cognitive development and around classroom management biases.
Delaying boys entrance to school by a year or three can help the first. The second will require a change in culture which I don’t think would be addressed.
I’m not sure gay boys cognitively develop at rates different from their straight cohorts but I am sure they would need to in order to make the distinction relevant.
The construct of masculinity has dwindled in authenticity. That has a lot to do with men themselves and how women raised boys to become men in the absence of men. The issue is made worse when we try to define authenticity in relation to what a man is. Doing manhood is more than just being able to name all the tools in a toolbox, more than just pleasing a woman sexually, more than standing like a statue of steel - fists clenched - in front of an F4 tornado, more than just guzzling down a case of beers to impress friends. That's the problem, doing authentic manhood is linked too closely by too many men to the negative, the mundane and the downright dumb... and they high five each other mentally for this. The concept of balance is missing but I think the damage is too severe to reverse.
You applaud your statement.
I would only add the modern reality of gender dynamics is a perfect example of perverse and unintended consequences, resulting from the sexual revolutions of the 1960's
I would never want society to go back to the reality before 1st wave feminism, but I don't know if society is better as a whole since 1st wave feminism.
Our species has non replacement birth rates in a majority of countries and a large percentage of disaffected young men all over the world.
Historically, this factor has consistently brought very turbulent political and inter nation conflict.
I will theorize that world societies will get very chaotic for the rest of the century.
Get will get the popcorn.
My favorite and most useful class in junior high school was metal shop.
I'm surprised Ezra didn't ask about how being raised without a dad increases the risk of educational problems and behavioral problems for boys. The US has the world's highest rate of fatherless kids.
Is the difference in performance not mainly about the fact that being intelligent and bookish or school positive is simply not cool among boys? In school, I was known as a "brain" back in that day. It was not a compliment.
Why didn’t they talk about the change in what boys are being prepared for in manhood? The expectation used to be that men were the head of the household, but society is moving to egalitarian households. If men and women (or lgbt families) hope everyone provides equal finances, childcare, household maintenance etc…then aren’t we changing the goal of what boys are raised toward?
(Add to this…changes in the job markets and schools are always behind)
Maybe boys should be prepared for ‘Adulthood’ rather than ‘Manhood’. The latter like ‘Womanhood’ is fast becoming outdated. Apart from basic biological differences, why divide 8 billion of us into 2 - with different expectations. We are all individuals and there are huge overlaps in values, views, preferences etc between the 2 genders. There should be no expectations re preconceived ‘roles’ or conditioning into certain roles. Again - we should be treated as individuals regardless of biological sex.
@@mkkrupp2462 This. Not every woman wants to be a wife and mother, in fact many now simply do not considering the heavy pressure of societal roles put on them. At the same time foisting the expectation of "Manhood" onto boys has become detrimental to men's wellbeing. Why can't we just be people, human beings? With adult roles and responsibilities that are not forced onto us by reason of gender??
@@lamoinette23 because finding your masculinity is an important step in learning to attract women. And the ability to attract women is basically what decides whether you're a real human or a leper in society
here it is
Not understanding the orchid vs dandelion metaphor? Boys are orchids? Orchids are parasitic/symbiotic, while girls are weeds? Suggest a better metaphor.
Is anyone addressing the impact of the loss of male privilege on boys and men?
Fragility vs Sturdiness metaphor really. Harder to successfully grow an orchid than a dandelion.
They're both flowers, settle down I'm sure you can find something else to get offended about.
Forget ‘manhood’. Forget ‘womanhood’. It should be ‘Adulthood’. Let people be individuals and don’t raise children to conform to preconceived roles and expectations for a certain gender. That’s a good part of the problem.
Plus - it’s also partly a class problem - with a great disparity in average male wages compared to those of males on higher income levels - and the resulting differential in public status.
We’ve spent 60 years saying men and women are basically the same. They are not. We need to reengage with our natures at a societal if we are to see improvements at a societal level.
The left gives a systemic critique for women and rugged individualism for men. THIS is the issue.
@DavidProductionsDead on. There’s positive masculinity centered on teaching, instructing, sharing, and giving guidance. That’s protects and defends. Unafraid and not threatened by change. Walz is awesome in particular.
@@IamBrixTM simply existing isn't enough. They have to talk about these issue and normalize them. But they aren't
was a huge mistake to let girls be in the boy scouts ... at the ages of say 10-14 boys need a space where they can be together without the influence of girls in the mix .. who at that age are farther along in development .. the skills and experiences one has in scouts is best acquired by mentoring of older boys & men and then interacting with your peers as a 'patrol' .. if girls wanted /needed that then the girl scouts should have used the boy scout playbook to provide that for them .. reminder - of the 12 men who landed on the moon 11 had been boy scouts ...
Boy scouts made that decision because they lost the Mormons, not because they care about girls. Girl scouts is a better program and their gold award is much more difficult to get than the pathetic eagle scout nonsense.
This problem existed, long before girls entered Boy Scouts…
@@speedwagon7562 yes .. but still a bad idea ...
❤❤❤ Hey, hey, go ahead and buy of a copy of A. N. Whitehead’s book, On Education, published. In 1912, I think.
What is the main theme of that book?
A rare moment, I am with Ezra. Bush is a terrible comparison. 😮 Bush is bad. Let's find another persin to compare to the t-word.
The number of young men going to college has decreased. Some sources frame this as being mostly about the fact that the number of young people reaching college age has decreased, and some frame it as meaning that boys and men are flat-out not ok. Without numbers from the second camp, I'm more inclined to believe the first.
I think the statistics are probably corrected for 'merely' not existing at college age.
I mean... they literally are talking about the numbers. Which kind of goes to show you're part of the problem.
❤
Boys need to mandatorily attend army or NGO for a year or two, before college
You first brain dead
@DavidProductionsperhaps. But they would certainly learn discipline and accountability.
Most boys and young men have lost the idea of "purpose" or being "useful". They shouldn't desperately chase after other women. But being motivated enough to treat your parents well after you've become an adult is a very good example.
Who says most boys have sense of purpose or usefulness based how they treat their parents??
@@harperwelch5147 I forgot to mention the reference. There's a channel called ManTalks where he discusses about issues men and boys face. He talked something along the lines of what I said above.
Maybe separating them is the answer.
Naah. My ex went to an all boys school most of his peers are divorced. .... Being a teenager is tough. But in a coed school boys see girls at their worst and girls see boys at their worst ... So in the future whatever crazy someone's spouse is doing they can compare it to teen behavior and have a better perspective on whether it's just different.
⚓️ Studying equality… all that other crap …. anyone done an impact of the real estate industry???
How does it feel working for paper now that is as bad as the New York Post
Wow this makes donalds life easier too bad thing we need fixed
Too late for that. You are in the middle of the backlash
Strongly disagree. Making sense of the things people care about can only be a good thing
Donald? Trump? Duck?
@@LeoMoonyThose names are interchangeable 😉
@@bernardzsikla5640 yes they are
When you keep preaching about how toxic being a dude is, how females should always be believed,how dudes should be soft,how men should just put their head down and get screwed by the laws and society then it should come to no surprise that most of us have checked out, we see this society for what it is and choose to keep to ourselves, you keep living in your bubble but you wont see us engaging you,not socially or monetarily, plenty of good looking chicks overseas, c ya.
soypoint identity politics soupoint idpol soipoiant