Yeah I agree, my channel also has gone through some format changes. From truly off the cuff short format, to over produced (which I knew was not sustainable, like my PACMAN, Dragster and D.A.R.Y.L) videos. You find a balance for what works for you and you shouldn't be ashamed of crap.
I've repaired dozens of 108x monitors. I've heard that same whining sound that changes when powering off and it can sometimes be caused by a shorted cap. IIRC it was a 4.7uF cap, easy to find if you check the schematics. I'm co-author on the Gona monitor site and we have gone to great lengths to find and scan almost all of the monitor manuals and schematics.
The R screws or Robertson or rectangular or square are very common sight on self tapping screws for metals here in Greece used very much on aluminium windows etc.. Robertson screwdrivers are easy to use one-handed, because the tapered socket tends to retain the screw, even if it is shaken They have 3 most common sizes R1 R2 R3 and are one of the best screw heads ever made IMHO much better than PH Hex Torx and of course flat head ones. I have used them and still using them a lot. Very nice video as always, bring more Commodore stuff. Cheers Jim
Was about to say Robertson Screws are not security, they are just Canadian. While you don't find them in the US much, you find them all the time in the Great White North
@@NullReference119 Yup - It's impossible to do any construction in Canada without using Robertson screws. If you use screws for framing or decks, it's Robertson screws - it's the only thing sold in the lumber yard or Home Depot. I would be surprised if it's not also the case in the USA.
@@leonkiriliuk Sadly no, the vast majority of screws used down in the states are Posidrive/Phillips IIRC. You do see some Robertson sneaking in more and more though.
Depends on the application. If you're using machined sockets with machined pins, they're fine. Same with new ICs. For old clapped out ICs or things reclaimed from logic boards, dual wipe is better.
@@GGigabiteM Try shipping a product with machine sockets. ALL the chips will pop out during rough handling. Even if they are new chips. There's a reason why mass produced products do not use them.
Square drive screws are not security screws, they are also called Robertson screws and are fairly common in some countries, they are frequently used because they do not cam out under high torque and have a bunch of other nice advantages to other screw types. Wouldn't normally expect to see them used with plastic but they must have had some advantage during manufacturing
If you go to the hardware store the square drive (they come in multiple sizes) is a common bit for specialty construction screws. A Milwaukee set of bits will have at least 3 sizes of square head bits. : )
You can solder a 3 pin header to fly-lead hooks so you can test parts outside the ZIF socket, ie, the 3 pin header goes in the ZIF instead of the part.
Solding the middle of the pin to the socket is a really great tip. Much easier to level the chip that way. I don't think I've ever seen anyone else do that thanks for that one 😊
Thanks for this! I actually bought a Mac LC a while ago with a 12" Apple RGB CRT. When I turned on the CRT, it SQUEALED very loudly. I also replaced the horizontal transistor hoping it was that, but of course it wasn't. I'm almost positive it's a bad flyback. I ordered an old coil / flyback tester on eBay and I figured I'd learn how to use it, since I don't have another flyback I can just swap in.
I have a Philips CM8833 monitor in which the flybacktransformer is damaged. Monitor same as old 1084S, and older version main PCB, with different flybacktransformer. I adapted a new flyback transforemr from a newer version of the monitor. A replacement for the older version has long been unavailable and unavailable for sale. The older flyback transforemr had differently arranged pins on the PCB, but the voltages were all the same.
Regarding the Tac2, it is a fantastic joystick (the best imo), but there are two common issues. 1. The firebuttons need to make contact with two metal tabs and they can fail to fire when getting even the tiniest corrosion, I used to modify them so they only need to make contact with one of the tabs (solder one of the wires to the firebutton and connect the tabs together). 2. I also have had an issue where the rubber gromit that centers the joystick gets deformed so it does not center anymore (retro drifting) , it is unrepairable as far as I know 🙂
you need wico sticks, the boss and i forget what the red one was, those joysticks are the bad-ass-ery of joysticks for the c64. ll the rest are toys :) the boss is by far the best choice.
Hilarious coincidence: I was fixing my gate today and had trouble due to big wood screws holding it all together, which used that same square bit! Square #2.
huh for some reason I thought the TAC2 had a metal dome held in place with scotch tape and moving the joystick compresses the dome and completes the circuit. I remember fixing a few of those as a kid.
Continue doing the videos as yourself. You will get better organically. Do not be too hard on your earlier videos. Any criticism from me is 100% about the prices computers used to cost and TH-camrs covering machines that people of reasonable means could never have afforded contemporaneously. I have much more of a connection to Commodore 64s than Amigas for that very reason, but I'll end my comment here.
In my experience Philips monitors that make that sound pratically allways have a bad Flyback sadly. It shorts out internally between the coil with B+ on it and another one connected to ground, thereby shorting out the power supply which will then make this noise.
Don't tell anyone, I was supposed to make an S-video cable to use with a modern display in this video but I messed up and ordered the wrong plug lol. Apparently, there are two types of DIN-8 plugs
@@Epictronics1 I would have loved to watch it go pop!! Also, keep your old videos online, it's fun to watch the evolution.... Also, could you do a tutorial on how to discharge a CRT properly?
20:00 LOL @ thinking the Robinson head from Canada is a security screw. Nah it's just the old Canadian solution to Philips and flat heads being kind of awful for high torque applications. Becuase Peter Robinson wanted to patent and control the square bit, Torx became the more popular option.
@@Epictronics1 those are (or at least were) very popular in Canada in particular and almost nowhere else. You can consider them security screws in the US I guess. They seem to be less likely to slip but if it does slip the screw is bungled and possibly so is the screwdriver.
@@Epictronics1 they’re also commonly used for construction in New Zealand. Weird seeing them in electronics though, I’ve only seen them in drywall and framing before!
@@jwhite5008 It's still pretty much the normal screw in Canada. We're rather sentimental about them since they were originally Canadian. We get annoyed when Americans refer to them simply as square head. It's Robertson, dammit! 😉
@@jozsefizsak Sorry about that I'm not even from US, though in my country no one has any idea it's called "Robertson" screw either, unlike "Phillips" one. Actually I'd like to get a hand on a bunch of those but there are none in any hardware stores I've come across.
My 1702 has a half dead flyback and doesn't keep focus but I cannot find a replacement flyback for it which makes me sad! I don't know why nobody makes a replacement for the 1702.
Something tickled me hearing you call a Robertson a "security bit" (EDIT: though I just looked it up and it turns out Triangle screws were listed in the same New York patent, which latterly did become a security bit)
I hate those machine sockets, not because they are unreliable but I hate putting in old ICs because all the legs have to be perfect and can easily be bent. What a stupid socket that is! But there is one advantage: If there was an expansion or a bad contact, you can stick the machine sockets in the normal socket as it has bigger pins and thus can make contact on a bad socket without changing it out.
Why are machined sockets so popular with the retro community? I don't understand how anyone could believe that a flat pin in a round hole is a good idea.
I don't encourage anyone to use one type of socket over another - do what seems better for you. But the circle ones make just as much contact and at least seem to have a better record in terms of wearout of contacts with semi-frequent insertions and removals as the chip pins don't tend to gets stuck to the socket as much and mechanism gets less damaged during removal. They also seem to have less trouble with oxidization over the years and the tiny contact inside can be gold-plated without adding that much cost. But that type of sockets typically does require longer leads than double-wipe ones that are most common. Which means it's fine for new chips, but may have trouble with desoldered ones. The mechanism itself is designed for leaf-shaped pins which are used on most chips. the fact that the holes are circular plays little role unless you want to use them for transistors, resistors etc - then the shape is advantageous. Anyway use the ones *you* think are more appropriate for the situation or the ones you prefer.
@@jwhite5008 I actually did a test. After removing and reinstalling a chip about ten times the machined socket was so worn that the chip almost fell out by itself.
I regularly use the machined sockets on my projects, but I use uncut chips on new PCBs. I think they "feel" better when installing them compared to the cheaper dual wipe sockets. ...Maybe... you get a few more inserts and removals with the machined sockets. Truth be told, there are a bunch of disadvantages to the machined sockets. While I haven't had a problem, they wear out just like the flat ones after many inserts and removals. Also the legs can't bend, so one or two in a pack of 5 have broken legs and cannot be used. Pin alignment is also more difficult, and they increase the chance of bent pins on the chip during insertion. You are more likely to run into issues with cut legs on chips being too short as demonstrated on this video. If you're starting out on PCB design or repair, start with the dual wipes. They may feel cheaper, but you're probably better off. While machined sockets have their place, they're not automatically better in many (even most) situations.
Adrian's Digital Basement tried to say it's because the pins hace contact on all sides, but the problem with that argument is that flat pins don't actually sit in machine sockets firmly. They easily can move out of the socket over time. Plus it puts fatigue on the pins of whatever you stick in there. Double wipe is just better for most old ICs that aren't using machine pins. Two points of contact is plenty and it can accommodate all sorts of pin sizes.
Machine sockets are garbage for old desoldered ICs. They're not made for that. Dual wipe is what you want since it can accommodate shorter pins and is durable with chips being removed frequently for testing. Machine sockets only make sense for machine pins or brand new ICs with long pins.
ok that doesn't make any sense. Why would a bad CIA socket cause a black screen? I could see it fucking up functionality, but not a black screen. It's also odd because I thought machine sockets were pretty reliable. Better than dual wipe. My own C64 has them in the all 8 ram chips and the color ram and the PLA.
Yeah, I didn't think the CIA could cause this either. I have at least half a dozen C64 boards with machined sockets, they work too. This issue only occurs with some chips occasionally
The sockets tend to be less prone to damage with large chips but do not accommodate short pins well. I'm not familiar with C64 Kernal code but bungled connection could in theory mess up the bus enough for start-up process to bug out somewhere. Though I wonder what the deal is with the random characters appearing when pushed. This board may have a different fault and flexing it by resoldering the connector made it look ok. I suggest try to push on it slightly to see if there is a bad solder joint or a break somewhere.
Whether horrible or not all the videos oughta stay just as a sign of how far you've come!
Thanks :)
Yeah I agree, my channel also has gone through some format changes. From truly off the cuff short format, to over produced (which I knew was not sustainable, like my PACMAN, Dragster and D.A.R.Y.L) videos. You find a balance for what works for you and you shouldn't be ashamed of crap.
I've repaired dozens of 108x monitors. I've heard that same whining sound that changes when powering off and it can sometimes be caused by a shorted cap. IIRC it was a 4.7uF cap, easy to find if you check the schematics. I'm co-author on the Gona monitor site and we have gone to great lengths to find and scan almost all of the monitor manuals and schematics.
The R screws or Robertson or rectangular or square are very common sight on self tapping screws for metals here in Greece used very much on aluminium windows etc.. Robertson screwdrivers are easy to use one-handed, because the tapered socket tends to retain the screw, even if it is shaken
They have 3 most common sizes R1 R2 R3 and are one of the best screw heads ever made IMHO much better than PH Hex Torx and of course flat head ones. I have used them and still using them a lot.
Very nice video as always, bring more Commodore stuff. Cheers Jim
Was about to say Robertson Screws are not security, they are just Canadian. While you don't find them in the US much, you find them all the time in the Great White North
@@NullReference119 Yup - It's impossible to do any construction in Canada without using Robertson screws. If you use screws for framing or decks, it's Robertson screws - it's the only thing sold in the lumber yard or Home Depot. I would be surprised if it's not also the case in the USA.
Thanks!
@@leonkiriliuk Sadly no, the vast majority of screws used down in the states are Posidrive/Phillips IIRC. You do see some Robertson sneaking in more and more though.
Great video!! Fully agree with using dual wipe sockets instead of machine sockets! Thanks for sharing
Thanks Rudy!
Glad you demonstrated the problem with machine sockets. So many youtubers swear by them and I find that baffling. Give me a dual wipe any day.
Depends on the application. If you're using machined sockets with machined pins, they're fine. Same with new ICs. For old clapped out ICs or things reclaimed from logic boards, dual wipe is better.
I told Adrian's Digital Basement he was crazy for using machine sockets for anything but round pinned components.
@@GGigabiteM exactly
@@GGigabiteM Try shipping a product with machine sockets. ALL the chips will pop out during rough handling. Even if they are new chips. There's a reason why mass produced products do not use them.
@@humidbeing I've shipped dozens of computers with machined sockets and haven't had a problem yet.
Square drive screws are not security screws, they are also called Robertson screws and are fairly common in some countries, they are frequently used because they do not cam out under high torque and have a bunch of other nice advantages to other screw types. Wouldn't normally expect to see them used with plastic but they must have had some advantage during manufacturing
I have a TAC-2 here that I always use with my C64. It's the less common creme version :)
Cant wait for next Saturday! Love your content!
Thank you :)
We wanna see those old videos! Mine are still there!
They are too cringy! lol
@@Epictronics1 More than this??
th-cam.com/video/YDY_JWyQUtM/w-d-xo.html
If you go to the hardware store the square drive (they come in multiple sizes) is a common bit for specialty construction screws. A Milwaukee set of bits will have at least 3 sizes of square head bits. : )
My security bit kit had four different sizes. Never seen these before, so I just assumed they were security screws :)
You can solder a 3 pin header to fly-lead hooks so you can test parts outside the ZIF socket, ie, the 3 pin header goes in the ZIF instead of the part.
Great to see some commodore videos coming. I thought you were IBM & Apple only. I never saw your old videos. No shame. You should put them back up.
I visit the video right now. I missed you and the chat. Sorry. Great repair. Greetings from Steven from the Netherlands
Thanks :)
If you're already inspecting solder joints that could be cracked, you might as well just reflow them. That would make sure they're not cracked.
Exactly. Doesn't hurt.
Solding the middle of the pin to the socket is a really great tip. Much easier to level the chip that way. I don't think I've ever seen anyone else do that thanks for that one 😊
Thanks for this! I actually bought a Mac LC a while ago with a 12" Apple RGB CRT. When I turned on the CRT, it SQUEALED very loudly. I also replaced the horizontal transistor hoping it was that, but of course it wasn't. I'm almost positive it's a bad flyback. I ordered an old coil / flyback tester on eBay and I figured I'd learn how to use it, since I don't have another flyback I can just swap in.
Good luck with the project!
I have a Philips CM8833 monitor in which the flybacktransformer is damaged. Monitor same as old 1084S, and older version main PCB, with different flybacktransformer. I adapted a new flyback transforemr from a newer version of the monitor. A replacement for the older version has long been unavailable and unavailable for sale. The older flyback transforemr had differently arranged pins on the PCB, but the voltages were all the same.
Excellent fix. We are going to have to hack and bodge these displays as parts become more and more unavailable
Regarding the Tac2, it is a fantastic joystick (the best imo), but there are two common issues. 1. The firebuttons need to make contact with two metal tabs and they can fail to fire when getting even the tiniest corrosion, I used to modify them so they only need to make contact with one of the tabs (solder one of the wires to the firebutton and connect the tabs together). 2. I also have had an issue where the rubber gromit that centers the joystick gets deformed so it does not center anymore (retro drifting) , it is unrepairable as far as I know 🙂
Maybe it is repairable. I think Suncom used a regular tire valve to make that rubber grommet.
you need wico sticks, the boss and i forget what the red one was, those joysticks are the bad-ass-ery of joysticks for the c64. ll the rest are toys :) the boss is by far the best choice.
I have one of those! I don't think I have ever tried it. I'll check!
Hilarious coincidence: I was fixing my gate today and had trouble due to big wood screws holding it all together, which used that same square bit! Square #2.
lol
Another great video. These videos are the highlights of my Saturdays. Will you be following up on your ST video from last week?
Thank you. I will for sure. But it will take a while. I need to order some PCBs and probably some chips from China
huh for some reason I thought the TAC2 had a metal dome held in place with scotch tape and moving the joystick compresses the dome and completes the circuit. I remember fixing a few of those as a kid.
Well, there may actually be other variants than the ones I've got
@@Epictronics1 It's just probably my memories of being 10 or younger. lol
Continue doing the videos as yourself. You will get better organically. Do not be too hard on your earlier videos. Any criticism from me is 100% about the prices computers used to cost and TH-camrs covering machines that people of reasonable means could never have afforded contemporaneously. I have much more of a connection to Commodore 64s than Amigas for that very reason, but I'll end my comment here.
In my experience Philips monitors that make that sound pratically allways have a bad Flyback sadly. It shorts out internally between the coil with B+ on it and another one connected to ground, thereby shorting out the power supply which will then make this noise.
I have stopped using mashine sockets to. Love your channel have a nice day
Thank you
I love C64s. So more is better. But that C64 deserves a nice 4k display! LMAO (I run mine on 4K)
Don't tell anyone, I was supposed to make an S-video cable to use with a modern display in this video but I messed up and ordered the wrong plug lol. Apparently, there are two types of DIN-8 plugs
@@Epictronics1 lol s-video is less retro, but to be fair the retro tink 2x pro is using s-video from the C64.
@@awilliams1701 I have an old 4:3 DELL display that takes S-video. The image from the Commodore is superb!
My Fairchild Channel F even has 8k pixels resolution. That is eight thousand pixels. In total.
Those are Robertson screws. Widely used in the USA. We dont really see them here.
Hi. Why didn't you discharge the CRT?
Great video btw.
Thanks. I discharge the tube off-camera. This one actually popped, so it was definitely needed
@@Epictronics1 I would have loved to watch it go pop!!
Also, keep your old videos online, it's fun to watch the evolution....
Also, could you do a tutorial on how to discharge a CRT properly?
@@peddersoldchap I'm reluctant about giving safety advice. If misunderstood, It could end very badly
20:00 LOL @ thinking the Robinson head from Canada is a security screw. Nah it's just the old Canadian solution to Philips and flat heads being kind of awful for high torque applications. Becuase Peter Robinson wanted to patent and control the square bit, Torx became the more popular option.
What the heck is a Canadian super screw doing in the TAC-2? I have seen quite a few of these and they all have them. Never seen them anywhere else
Weird to see a Robertson screw on an american product, it's more of a Canadian screw thing, nothing security related :)
Oh, strange. I didn't even know it was called a Robertson screw. The bit came with my security screw kit
@@Epictronics1 those are (or at least were) very popular in Canada in particular and almost nowhere else. You can consider them security screws in the US I guess. They seem to be less likely to slip but if it does slip the screw is bungled and possibly so is the screwdriver.
@@Epictronics1 they’re also commonly used for construction in New Zealand. Weird seeing them in electronics though, I’ve only seen them in drywall and framing before!
@@jwhite5008 It's still pretty much the normal screw in Canada. We're rather sentimental about them since they were originally Canadian. We get annoyed when Americans refer to them simply as square head. It's Robertson, dammit! 😉
@@jozsefizsak Sorry about that
I'm not even from US, though in my country no one has any idea it's called "Robertson" screw either, unlike "Phillips" one.
Actually I'd like to get a hand on a bunch of those but there are none in any hardware stores I've come across.
Am I the only one that noticed "baord" in the title?
My 1702 has a half dead flyback and doesn't keep focus but I cannot find a replacement flyback for it which makes me sad! I don't know why nobody makes a replacement for the 1702.
If I ever find one, I'll let you know
@@Epictronics1 I would really appreciate that!!!
Something tickled me hearing you call a Robertson a "security bit"
(EDIT: though I just looked it up and it turns out Triangle screws were listed in the same New York patent, which latterly did become a security bit)
I hate those machine sockets, not because they are unreliable but I hate putting in old ICs because all the legs have to be perfect and can easily be bent. What a stupid socket that is! But there is one advantage: If there was an expansion or a bad contact, you can stick the machine sockets in the normal socket as it has bigger pins and thus can make contact on a bad socket without changing it out.
Why are machined sockets so popular with the retro community? I don't understand how anyone could believe that a flat pin in a round hole is a good idea.
It isn't. Spread the word
I don't encourage anyone to use one type of socket over another - do what seems better for you.
But the circle ones make just as much contact and at least seem to have a better record in terms of wearout of contacts with semi-frequent insertions and removals as the chip pins don't tend to gets stuck to the socket as much and mechanism gets less damaged during removal.
They also seem to have less trouble with oxidization over the years and the tiny contact inside can be gold-plated without adding that much cost.
But that type of sockets typically does require longer leads than double-wipe ones that are most common. Which means it's fine for new chips, but may have trouble with desoldered ones.
The mechanism itself is designed for leaf-shaped pins which are used on most chips. the fact that the holes are circular plays little role unless you want to use them for transistors, resistors etc - then the shape is advantageous.
Anyway use the ones *you* think are more appropriate for the situation or the ones you prefer.
@@jwhite5008 I actually did a test. After removing and reinstalling a chip about ten times the machined socket was so worn that the chip almost fell out by itself.
I regularly use the machined sockets on my projects, but I use uncut chips on new PCBs. I think they "feel" better when installing them compared to the cheaper dual wipe sockets. ...Maybe... you get a few more inserts and removals with the machined sockets. Truth be told, there are a bunch of disadvantages to the machined sockets. While I haven't had a problem, they wear out just like the flat ones after many inserts and removals. Also the legs can't bend, so one or two in a pack of 5 have broken legs and cannot be used. Pin alignment is also more difficult, and they increase the chance of bent pins on the chip during insertion. You are more likely to run into issues with cut legs on chips being too short as demonstrated on this video.
If you're starting out on PCB design or repair, start with the dual wipes. They may feel cheaper, but you're probably better off. While machined sockets have their place, they're not automatically better in many (even most) situations.
Adrian's Digital Basement tried to say it's because the pins hace contact on all sides, but the problem with that argument is that flat pins don't actually sit in machine sockets firmly. They easily can move out of the socket over time. Plus it puts fatigue on the pins of whatever you stick in there. Double wipe is just better for most old ICs that aren't using machine pins. Two points of contact is plenty and it can accommodate all sorts of pin sizes.
Next week Amiga? :)
Unfortunately, there are a ton of other machines on top of the Amiga pile, but we'll get there eventually :)
Always sad when a flyback goes 😢
Yeah, someday we are going to run out of flybacks. I read somewhere that the "new" flybacks are not quite as good as the original
20:20 - That's no security screw! That looks like a Robbie! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives#Robertson
Fix more Commodores :)
But it's hard to keep up with the Commodore pile!
@@Epictronics1 Those machines need to be fixed. Always something new wrong with them:)
@@tommyovesen Yeah, most of the Commodores I have fixed are broken again haha
Machine sockets are garbage for old desoldered ICs. They're not made for that. Dual wipe is what you want since it can accommodate shorter pins and is durable with chips being removed frequently for testing. Machine sockets only make sense for machine pins or brand new ICs with long pins.
Machine sockets are so overrated, they have so little surface area of contact. Adrian's Digital Basement love them, I don't know why.
ok that doesn't make any sense. Why would a bad CIA socket cause a black screen? I could see it fucking up functionality, but not a black screen. It's also odd because I thought machine sockets were pretty reliable. Better than dual wipe. My own C64 has them in the all 8 ram chips and the color ram and the PLA.
to be fair the RAM is new old stock, the color ram is new old stock and the PLA is a GAL PLA.
Yeah, I didn't think the CIA could cause this either. I have at least half a dozen C64 boards with machined sockets, they work too. This issue only occurs with some chips occasionally
@@awilliams1701 yeah, new chips don't seem to have much issue with machined sockets. I would leave them in
The sockets tend to be less prone to damage with large chips but do not accommodate short pins well.
I'm not familiar with C64 Kernal code but bungled connection could in theory mess up the bus enough for start-up process to bug out somewhere. Though I wonder what the deal is with the random characters appearing when pushed. This board may have a different fault and flexing it by resoldering the connector made it look ok. I suggest try to push on it slightly to see if there is a bad solder joint or a break somewhere.
@@jwhite5008 I think you're right. This board probably also has a RAM issue. I'll test it some more in an upcoming vid