HOW TO MEASURE PISTON TO VALVE CLEARANCE. HOW BIG OF A CAM CAN I RUN IN MY 5.0L FORD? HOW MUCH LIFT?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ก.ค. 2024
- HOW MUCH LIFT CAN I RUN IN MY 5.0L FORD? HOW MUCH CAM WILL FIT IN MY 302 FORD? HOW DO I MEASURE PISTON-TO-VALVE CLEARANCE? CAN I RUN A CAM BIGGER THAN THE 274 XTREME ENERGY COMP CAM? DO I NEED SPECIAL TOOLS TO MEASURE P-V CLEARANCE? CHECK OUT THIS VIDEO WHERE I DEMONSTRATED HOW TO MEASURE THE PISTON TO VALCE CLEARANCE ON AN ORIGINAL 1990 5.0L FORD 302. I MEASURED THE P-V ON THE STOCK CAM THEN AGAIN WITH A XE274HR CAM. HOW MUCH DID IT CHANGE AND CAN I GO EVEN BIGGER?
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I love the Comp Cams XR274HR cam. it is grate replacement for just about any factory motor. I ran one in my 71 SS 396 Camaro for years. I prefer the Extreme Marine version XM274HR with 112 degree lobe separation for street use. the added 2 degrees of lobe separation make it idle better and i makes marginally better vacuum. I heard the Comp Cams High Energy and Extreme Energy series cams were designed by Harold Brookshire. who owned UltraDyne before it went bankrupt 2003, and later Designed the Voodoo line for Lunati. Also heard He used to make the cams for Darrell Waltrups cup motors. I used to run a UltraDyne in the 427 powering my Hondo Drag Boat. back in the 90's. He passed back in 2015. its too bad all these old timers are being called home.
Please post part 2! Also with the 1.9" valve Enforcer heads which may be able to run a cam with clearance that the 2.02 can't. Both size valve heads are available in the Enforcers.
I stuffed a tfs stage 2 cam. 1.7 rockers. Tfs 11r 190 heads at 56cc in a bone stock bottom end 351 with miles. Miles of clearance
Be great to see you run a TFS TW head after an in-line valve head like the AFR to see how much additional clearance is achieved
Always good to see sbf content here Richard 👍🏻
It’s so nice to see you working on an engine. Modern “car guys” have the dexterity and aim of a simpleton. You are on much more of an “I do this every day” type of approach which I can greatly appreciate. You’re the bomb Richard 🥳😁😁
ALL I DO IS WORK ON ENGINES IT SEEMS
@@richardholdener1727 at least you’re having fun man, I’d love to spend a day doing what you do 😅 but priorities require most of my time so I can only play with my car once in a while
Modern soyboy youtubers who know almost something about cars?
@@richardholdener1727 … No worries, my friend. There are worse ways to make a living 👌.
@@exploranator I’m friends with one unfortunately. We met on Instagram cause he had a new edge like mine. He bought front and rear control arms cause he wanted “everything new”, tore the car apart, lost confidence, and was like “next time I’ll call a shop 😭”. The dude makes me want to pull my hair out cause he won’t sell the car to me either. He’s worried about little nicks in the bushing rubber and refuses to put the stock parts back in. He basically bought the car to take up garage space and yet he’s always at car meets
lol I just asked you this question on an older video lol This is great am going to get my answer I hope no issues with the 274 and AFR's can't wait for part 2 Thank you for all your work I apricate it Richard!
Thanks for your reviews. I like the bolt on steel plate for the dial indicator. I'll have to use that next time instead of balancing it on the block webbing!
Man you must be reading my mind just got a set of gt40p heads and a 351 xe274h flat tappet cam for my 302. Will be doing this in a few months. Thanks for the tip i like this method vs using playdough. 👍👍
Part 2 will the most valuable since many people will also want to upgrade to aftermarket heads without pulling the bottom end apart. It would be extra cool if he did 20 deg in line heads and then Trick Flow twist wedge 170cc
Your videos are super helpful. I work on all the normal v8 stuff on a day to day basis. And I’m super knowledgeable and capable when it comes to rebuilding pretty much anything. But super new at the horsepower stuff. Anybody can change parts. Putting together the ignition timing, cam timing,valve clearance ,fueling and tuning in general. those things can only be learned in schools or trial and error. both can be extremely expensive and time consuming. Trial and error is always a big factor but your videos help out enormously.thank you very much.
Hey Richard just the tech I've been looking for my budget build 5.0l stock bottom HR274XE cam enforcer 185cc edelbrock Hi-Ram eBay twin turbos and holley hp management... awesome can't wait for part 2 and see if you tubo it thanks
Thanks. Some of us are still daily driving somewhat stock versions like this with our foxes.
depends on how much advance you want to grind or dial into the intake lobe as well.
Absolutely need to watch the part 2 of this... but i haven't found that video yet.. That's exactly my situation - 2.02/1.60 Heads with E-cam and stock HO forged 302 pistons.. (Liberty Aluminum Heads) I really do need to know before I buy some $500 pistons and then discover I didn't need new pistons just to get bigger valve reliefs...that's my luck on stuff like this... I'm clay checking this weekend.... 🤔
Nice info can't wait for part 2
Thanks Richard, Can you do more 351 Windsor stuff? Like ptv, etc.
I’m just glad to know that Richard Holdner has a garage that looks very similar to mine. Only difference is I have a couple three wheelers scattered in the mix.
that is not my garage-i'm not that cool
Holy crap this is the first time that I have seen the fox looks kinda sad covered in dust like that
Interested in the same test with GT40 and GT40P heads. I've got a set of GT40P's with the larger ex valves from the GT40.
Love the old school 5oh tech 👍🏼
Your cam depends on what year stock pistons are...back in my day I'd use 1986 shortblock with the factory flat tops 10.1 comp ,ford F cam and 1.7 rockers was the max.
I'm hoping you will test the old F cam vs the new Summit F cam.
The 282 cam is a pretty big cam for a stock motor. I'd be curious to see how much power it could make with the stock e7 heads or heck even gt40s
I have stock explorer short block, tfs 11r 190cc heads, fti custom cam and running .607 lift at 224/232 duration. Have .95 clearance on intake and exhaust barely touched the clay.
That's nice!
I was wondering about Anderson's N-41 and N-51 cams? Heard they run very good stock heads or not also a test of promaxx 185 heads would be cool
I have run the 282hr on a stock bottom end with gt40 heads. Car has made 100 or so 1/8 mile passes trapping at 6400 rpms with no issues yet.
Using standard lifters?
Great info!
All of the forums are wrong. They say a 274hr won't work on a stock engine. I guess with all of that clearance gt40p heads could also run the 274hr??? Thanks for the video.
I ran the 274hr cam with stock pistons and stock heads with the gt40x head valvetrain in them. Valves (1.94/1.54), upgraded Ford racing springs and Ford racing retainers with 1.6 motorsport rockers. Ran good.
Any hp numbers on your setup
@elias Tillberg no. Just threw it together in the garage. Heads are on a 306 now with cast replacement pistons and a old crane power max cam. It's waiting to get stuffed in a 66 mustang coupe.
Richard, I'd like to note that a 5.0 out of a crown vic or lincoln might give you trouble. They have flat top pistons with NO valve reliefs and had the E6 heads that had valves sunk way up in the heads. Both budget 302s I built, one with an E-cam (got a billet one for $50, I couldn't say no) and the other with a Comp 260XE both would have crashed the valves into the pistons. The E-cam engine had milled 1969 302 heads (stock valves) and the Comp 260 engine had milled GT40 heads (stock valves). I might have gotten away with both if I had a Mustang 5.0 short block with factory valve reliefs but, the much more plentiful luxury car roller 5.0s are going to be used in budget builds these days. FYI, I used a die grinder and play dough to relief my pistons, budget cuts required extra elbow grease. Great video.
@Aaron Loos the vegan hunter Aaron, my experience is you will have PTV clearance issues. I had a Ford piston as an example on where the valve reliefs would be located. I then made a 4 inch circle template using a thin piece of plastic, transfered the valve relief locations onto the pistons on the assembled short block. Use lots of masking tape and pack the edge of the piston with play dough so shavings can't fall into the piston to ring gap. Do one at a time and take your time cleaning and taping as you go. You don't need much about 0.060 deep at the most. Do one piston and then recheck to make sure you've cut out enough. It's time consuming but, bending 16 valves is time consuming and costly.
Do it, Richard. Run a 2" lift cam!
I'm a diehard gen1 chevy guy. Don't hate me chevy guys but I want to buy a late 80's 5.0 hardtop and build a carbureted 347 stroker with AFR heads on a small shot of N.X.👀 on my next engine build. It would be my first mustang. Thanks again Richard.
Well done as always.
But when doing this procedure on a salvage yard 5.0 that’s as filthy on the inside as the outside, it’s probably best to make allowances for the gritty gunk buildup between the lifter and cam lobe.
One can never be too precise when precision matters 😉.
BETWEEN THE LIFTER AND CAM? THERE IS NO BUILD UP IN THOSE MATING SURFACES
@@richardholdener1727 … Richard, gee whiz 😳. Thanks for the explanation.
I didn’t think you would take my gritty comment seriously or post a reply. I know you would never attempt do any type of adjustments or checking the P-V clearance if the internal components were contaminated. I was making an attempt at humor that obviously failed BADLY. Oh well… I’m going to keep my regular day job and leave the comedy to professionals like you.
My coworker was telling me... How great Fords are and there's still something like 80% of them on the road today.
i have those heads but have no installed them on my engine yet
I just love that you can independently set the intake and exhaust centerline, and lobe seperation angle on stock 4v modular engines and basically tailor your stock cams for your appliation. From the factory, mine were set at 119/106-int/exh centerline. Setting oem 99 camshafts to 106icl/118ecl, felt huge in the car and idled more aggressively too.
A lot of people think what they need is a ton of duration on the intake lobe to make power but ive got stock 99 cobra 200° at .050 intake cams in my 04 c headed 4.6 and it revs happily to 7k rpm.
Interested to see the numbers on a dyno. May be the placebo effect because if everything else stays the same besides overlap I find it hard to believe it’s any real difference.
@@DWBmotorsports The 99 cobra intake cams have around 16° more duration than stock 03/04 cams on their own. When degreeing the cams, you have to choose where you want it to make power. Talking to Todd from na svt cams is where i got my specs for degreeing my combo. Hes adamant that the stock cam timing is set purely for emissions and while their wide icl is decent for power past the peak, it's far from optemized for average power with the combo. Having the intake cam set 106-110° icl is worth significant power and torque through the midrange compared to the stock 119° icl but will fall off on power earlier after peak. Richard has a video up on the effects of lsa on power but modulars are a different animal than the ls, especially the 4v modulars. Unlike a coyote where you get variable valve timing for tight icl at low rpm for torque and a wide icl for peak power, the modular has to have the cams set and locked to a specific spec. Luckily, you dont need a whole new cam to change it. Just a degree kit. Ill see if i can pull up his recommendations for how to degree a 4v.
@@DWBmotorsports Heres the exact message:
Degreeing the cam ensures they are where you want them. Additionally, advancing/retarding the cams puts the powerband where it needs to be to best suit your needs. Moving the cams from the stock position can do many things: add mid range hp/tq, raise or lower the rpm where peak power occurs, prevent the drop off power after peak, etc.
The stock lobe centers are 119/110, this is good for emissions and upper rpm power with low mid range hp and tq.
1. 108/114 is good for mid range hp, tq and will put peak power at 6000rpm, power will drop off rapidly after peak
2. 108/120, good for mid range hp and tq, peak at 6000, power will not drop off as fast as #1
3. 110/118 a little less mid range hp and tq and peak will occur just over 6000, power will not drop off as fast #1
4. 112/118 less mid range and tq than #3 but peak will occur higher, around 6200, less power drop after peak than #3, good for FI
5. 114/116, good for carrying power out past peak, works well with short runners, needs more gear than the other options, good for FI
Intake lobe centers higher than 114 are good for fuel mileage emissions, terrible for for n/a power.
@@madmod I’m not sold without seeing numbers on a dyno. The differences in advancing or retarding a pushrod cam are very minute on the the dyno from what I’ve seen. I understand the theory 100% but I think it’s a very very minor change, likely not something you’re gonna really feel in the seat of your pants.
@@DWBmotorsports So advancing or retarding a pushrod cam is a completely different process than degreeing a 4v modular or any dohc engine. The lobe seperation angle of a pushrod or even sohc engine is cut into the cam and is non adjustable. All you can do with it is advance or retard where the fixed lobe seperation and valve events occur. With dohc engines, you can independently adjust each cam to whatever spec you want, something not possible on a pushrod engine without a complete cam swap.
The modular v8 is far from optemized with stock cam timing. Its pretty well established that optemizing the icl of even stock 4v cams is worth good power. Its how variable valve timing across a plethora of dohc engines, 4cl v6 and v8 alike, all manage better average power than a fixed can. A coyote is a prime example being the evolution of the 4v mod motor. Locking out the cams when degreed for top end power will make similar peak hp to a fully variable cammed car but will be down on average power throughout the whole rev range.
The older mod motor is somewhat limited not having variable valve timing but its able to be optemized for better mid-low speed torque production without giving up hardle any power past peak. Not to mention, im able to adjust it in the future to suit whatever the application will be.
Do some quick searching on dynos for degreed 99 cobra cams in a 03/04 engine. I cant comment a link or I would.
Looking forward to seeing the bext video in the series , is the gt40 heads on the list ?
I hope so...👈💯
When will you be testing the David Vizard ported 2.2 head?
When is the next test with aftermarket cylinder heads
Where is part 2 clearance with the new heads and larger valves??
Where's Part 2?! lol hurry up 😁
Hmm. I bought an xe264 cam for my LOPO 88 Tbird 5.0, I’m wondering if I can get a little more now. I think I’m held back by the damn non valve relief pistons
What is that on the left side of the fox? You holding out on us Holdner? 😆 🤣
THAT IS AT MARK SANCHEZ PLACE
When is part 2 coming out?
Thanks for the great videos. One quick question: what is the max lift the original style roller lifter with the dog bones can handle?
Let me check
Love your content as always!
What would you say is the go to minimum piston to valve clearance? I've heard 2mm (0.079in)
Any other numbers you would give as a rule of thumb?
.050-THOUGH WE HAVE RUN IT TIGHTER
@@richardholdener1727 Depends on how hard you turn the engine and how good the valve train is. 050 is generally very safe. 040 is flirting with danger but I have ran a Chev there. Though upon disassemly a couple of valves had been touching occasionally. Not enough to even bend the valves, just enough to brush the pistons. Probably at 7500 rpm with the usual redline 7200.
Nice tech
So, it sounds like you would run out of the heads ability to utilize the bigger cam before you have any issue with p-v
Can you do this on the 5.7 hemi.
The size of the intake valve is the major hurdle. An inline head with 1.90 or smaller will clear the majority of cams most sbe 302 guys will want to run on the street. 1.94" starts to limit your choices. This doesn't include TFS offerings. I've always used .080" for the minimum on a street motor. BTW, you can flycut the relief if you have forged pistons.
Back in the day if you wanted afr 185 you had to fly cut the stock forged pistons, you are 100% right because of the intake valve but a set of Windsor sr or roush 200 cc direct bolt on. Comes down to intake valve and if head design is forgiving
@@thacutoff6226 Those were very lazy iron heads. They weren't popular for a reason. I had a buddy with a set on his Windsor. I never fitted them to a 5.0L.
@@chriswise1232 they aren’t afrs but they flow out box 245 cfm @.500 lift and with porting and 2.08 intake valves they can really cook
People didn’t like iron cause were heavy but hold heat better then aluminum. They were a nice alternative back in the day, or hedge against warping aluminum heads
To your point gt40 heads like 30hp, world sr like 50hp, afr 185 like 80+ hp …… these are potential hp increases
@@thacutoff6226 I've seen a car swapped from GT40 to box stock world senior and gain nothing at the track.
What happen to part 2
Personally I blame squirrels
Frickin squrls
Nothing personal, but I'm adamant that only a semi spherically cut Kiwi fruit (------->🥝
@@deanstevenson6527 lol nice 👍
Can you do that with turning the Pistons around.. not going in to detail with this old trick. For those who know.. Richard will that work still?!
PISTON FLIP IS A MYTH
Good to know. What springs are you using on these stock heads with the 274 cam though? I don't believe the TFS springs can handle that lift. Limited to .540" I believe.
the engine did not require springs to do a simple p-v test
@@richardholdener1727 I get that but I'm curios what springs I would been on gt40p head swap with that cam. Can't seem to find any. I've used Alex parts in the past with good luck but he is out of stock. Thankyou though
I can tell you that a 274 cam will NOT work with AFR 185 Renegade heads (2.02/1.6v) and speed pro standard forged replacement pistons with the 4 valve reliefs.
Would this cam work with a stock 98 Ford explorer motor I know the Piston Valve relief is a little different?
yes
I need that black car in the background.
Richard have you ran this cam with stock rocker arms? I have the xe274hr and ported gt40p heads. But want to use stock rocker arms till I get a deal on roller rockers.
it works
Is that a falcon in the garage?
Is that your Mustang in the background? What is the black car? Looks like it has a fiberglass hood? Hard to tell
NOT MY SHOP
I have a open question about cams in general. Has anyone ran into a issue with soft cams. My uncle told me he knows 3 friend who have wiped out their new cams on first start up. Since 2018 I guess most cams, are being made with softer metals, supposedly you have to break in a new cam with stock springs to harden it. Then switch to the aftermarket springs. It's the only thing that helped, idk just wondering if anyone has heard or seen it happen
this is more prevalent on flat tappet cams
@@richardholdener1727 got ya thanks. Just didn't want to wipe out my truck norris cam
so the 274 555 lift cam clears because of it LSA? I remember Ford saying you couldnt use the F303 cam with 512 lift because of the P.V. clearance in a stock engine.
ITS NOT LIFT
It's the 226 or 288 of duration. I ran edlbrock aluminum 1.9 heads with a F cam for years. 2.02 heads won't work with f cam
What would running a 1.7 roller rocker change compared to the factory 1.6 stamped rocker arm.
IT WOULD MAKE A 500 LIFT CAM A 531 LIFT CAM
@@richardholdener1727 one question I've had trouble answering for myself related to going with 1.7 rockers, does that change affect more than just lift? What happens with the specs on things like duration, LSA, and the timing events. Are they unaffected, or do they also change?
Where is part 2? I can’t seem to find it !!!!!!
not up yet
Could you run xe274hr cam with gt40 heads and stock bottom end?
I THINK SO
What's the biggest camthat would fit in the 1986 flat top 5.0 HO?
you need to check
Stupid question here!!! If you did run into P/V issues, could you shorten the pushrod to correct that other than obviously changing the cam??? 🤔🤔🤔
UNFORTUNATELY THAT WON'T CHANGE P-V
Ways you can fix it:
thicker head gasket and lower compression
different piston, whether lower overall compression height or a more aggressively deep valve pocket
shorter rod and less compression
cam with less lift.
Carefully altering the timing to make it so your valves are not open to that extent when the piston is in that position. This would require a degree wheel and a way to alter cam timing in an incremental basis plus you would want to verify that it was the same in each cylinder and also maintain whatever minimum clearance is advised, like .001" or whatever, when running.
No, you can change the rocker arm ratio tho
What is that intake? I have one on my 91 but was tod its not the factory manifold
GT40
How can I find the part two of this video? I have afr 165 heads with the xe274 cam going in a stock 93 bottom end.
NOT UP YET
When is the next one coming out. I am about to change out the x303 cam with the xe274hr one. It has been running with the afr165 heads and x303 for a year. Stock bottom end and stock pistons.
Just tried it and it will not work with the measurements I got. I tried the intake first and it was too close. I retarded the cam 4 degrees and the intake was good but now the exhaust is too close. 0.050 on exhaust and 0.095 on intake.
Any ideas now?
👍💪
How much cam can you run?
“All of it!”
😉
Is that your Falcon in the background ? (Looks like a Falcon)
NOT MINE
This method doesn't do anything for determining radial clearances though? You could be.001" from the side of a valve pocket and never even know it.
What happens if you don't have enough valve clearance do you have to go to a smaller duration
yes-less duration
@@richardholdener1727 you could fly cut the pistons also to give a little more clearance
YES
I have a stock 93 or 94 5.0 in my car, will 2.02 intake valves work with stock pistons?
WITH WHAT CAM?
@@richardholdener1727 I was planning on using the B303 cam
Richard i have a 89 non ho 5.0 with the e6se heads what cam can i run will a e303 fit
I HAVE NOT TESTED THAT COMBO
@@richardholdener1727 have u ever ran the e6se heads
How can we know a cam's ramp rate?
cam doctor
What would the minimum clearance for the valves?
Minimum safe clearances are 0.05 on the intake and 0.10 on the exhaust.
WE'VE RUN .035
The standard is 80 thou and 100 thou
Sweet you can put a good cam in a 302 w e7’s :p and gain like 25 hp
ITS MORE
@@richardholdener1727 28 :p
12 seconds lol new record
QUICK DRAW
512 lift. I know this i just built mine and summit racing told me that's what I could get away with.
the lift has almost nothing to do with p-v (duration is the key)
@richardholdener1727 they both do because summit racing told Mr that the x303 I would have needed piston to valve clearance it was 542 lift so I went with the f303 512 lift. He said that was Max lift that I could have went with without valve clearance. Great cam the ford racing cams.
@@richardholdener1727 the lift is how far the valve opens. And the 512 was max lift for stock pistons.
512 is what you can run
look at duration
More Ford stuff please