How Deep Space Nine Actually Saved the Ferengi
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- ▶Join this channel to get access to perks:
www.youtube.co...
▶Watch more Trek, Actually videos at: • Trek, Actually
▶Watch our Star Trek: Deep Space Nine/Firefly watch-along series, Trek Reluctantly, at: • Trek, Reluctantly
▶Listen to our Trek-themed comedy podcast, The Ensign's Log:
▶RSS: / sounds.rss
▶Soundcloud: / the-ensigns-log-podcast
▶Website: www.lemmelisten...
▶Patreon: / steveshives
▶PayPal: www.paypal.me/...
▶Twitter: / steve_shives
▶Facebook: / thatguysteveshives
▶Instagram: / steve.shives
Listen to the Late Seating podcast:
▶RSS: / sounds.rss
▶Soundcloud: / late-seating
▶Website: www.lemmelisten...
"Rule 34: War is good for business."
"Rule 35: Peace is good for business."
"It's easy to get them confused."
i find that moment highlighted an important thing about capitalism. its not evil, but its application can be insidious.. capitalism can profit in war (bad) or peace (good) capitalism.. like frengi... are neutral
I don't think that's what Rule 34 says...
@@roguebantha7324 Gene Roddenberry had some ideas about Ferengi Rule 34.
No, its Rule 35 that war is good, rule 36 that peace is good. Rule 34 is that porn is good for bussiness
"I tried. I tried my best to run my establishment under this occupation. But you know what? It's no fun. I don't like Cardassians - they're mean and arrogant. And I can't stand the Jem'Hadar. They're creepy. They just stand there like statues, staring at you. That's it. I don't want to spend the rest of my life doing business with these people. I want the Federation back. I want to sell root beer again!" a weak moment from Quark (he was drunk) but shows that he would rather enjoy his job than make profit
Well, he's a people person, after all!
I love this callback to the scene in another episode where Garak equates rootbeer with the Federation!
I also like how in early season six he says to Kira and Odo "I'm not just concerned with profit major. Look around do you see any ghetto fences dividing up the promenade I don't, or exhausted Bajoran labourers sprawled on the ground after a long day in the ore processing center. Do you hear the cries of starving children. I don't. Don't get me wrong I miss the Federation too but as occupations go things could be alot worse."
It shows Quark as a very complex character. He is a loveable rogue but he is also somewhat haunted by the cruelty of the Cardassians he saw during the occupation. Even in season one he reacted with horror when Odo mentioned the gallotep labor camp.
@@shibolinemress8913From what I understand that entire scene was an adlib...
Arguably Quark's best line: "I am Quark, son of Keldar, and I have come to answer the challenge of D'Ghor, son of .... whatever."
He was so dismissively badass in that moment.
The fact that in Klingon culture, this actually constitutes a *massive* insult makes it even better! 😂🤣😅 Quark was sooo great!
Quark as played by Orange Cassidy. ;)
I gasped when I heard him say that
and the reason that line is so badass, is thanks to all the development of the Klingons as a whole since at least TNG... long buildups are the best. When the author knows you followed the series long enough to get the references to earlier episodes.
"But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people... will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces. Look in their eyes." One of the most memorable episodes with Quark in it. It wouldn't be ds9 without Quark, but that in particular always stuck with me.
Except this is wrong. I always thought Quark was a bit too quick to damn humanity. People often forget that empathy and altruism is two of humanity's greatest strengths. In fact, it can be argued it was THE guiding evolutionary force for us.
We are conditioned to believe this because that is the expected behavior of a hyper individualistic culture or species. American culture is focused on the myth of individualism.
@@JoelRiter But isn't the fact that hyper-individualism exists at all in America proof that it is, at the very least, part of humanity? It isn't one or the other, humans are kind, but they are also violent. Yin and yang.
I like Nog's response to this, "then I feel sorry for the Jem Haddar."
Here. Try this. It's an Earth Drink called "Root Beer."
I hate it. It's so... Bubbly. So... Optimistic.
@@mana_beast_beats1114 Like the Federation?
To paraphrase Jadzia Dax, once you get past how terrible the ferengi are, they’re a whole lot of fun.
I think quark would have been a much better partner for Jadzia than uptight Whorf
@@petraroos3413 You're right... but Quark ain't got that horse d*ck like Worf got though... 😉
@@dzabageo Not if J. Wright had anything to say about it!
Quark is my favorite character despite how much I love other characters (Sisko, Worf, Dax, and Kira in particular). I agree with Jadzia.
Jadzia was an awesome character. My favorite.
When Quark absolutely schools a Vulcan about logic using the rules of acquisition and why now was the perfect and cheapest time to strike a peace deal. "Do you propose to teach me about logic?" " If I must..."
Who knows more about basic logic than businessmen?
People forget that Economics *isn’t the study of money.*
It’s the study of decision-making in the context of finite resources, which when you consider that one’s time is a finite resource… is pretty much all decision making.
@@icycoatl3185 One should remind those people that we had thriving economies before the first currencies existed.
money just became the ultimate vehicle for transactions, essentially an IOU.
One of my favorite moments in the entire series is when Nog pleads with Cisco to give him an opportunity. When he explains that he and his father do not fit into the Ferengi mold, and that he wants to be something more than his father, a poor businessman struggling to fit the mold. The desperation in his voice runs through me and I am brought to the edge of Tears.
It's a great scene. And it's a great example of a good retcon, because before that Rom was mostly Quark's dipshit brother/lackey, and then suddenly he was the brilliant engineer who didn't fit in. But it worked, it made both Rom and Nog better characters, and kicked off two of the most satisfying character arcs in the whole series.
@@SteveShives Star Trek's procedural segments are competence porn, and allowing its protagonists to BE competent within their field of expertise. Dipshit comedy characters are usually incompetent, and this undermines them being likeable and engaging.
Showing how cultural stereotypes - internally AND externally - is a great way to develop a character and gnaw at the edges of the Planet of the Hats tropes that at one flummox and delight in Star Trek canon.
Another really great point with that scene? What it again and notice when Sisko actually starts listening to and taking Nog seriously. It's right after he says, "I don't want to end up like my father!"
That, more than anything Nog said, is something Sisko can understand. Sisko didn't want to end up running the family business, he wanted something different. Something more. It wasn't until he realized that Nog wanted something more too that he could even conceive of the idea that Nog was serious.
Great writing backed up by great acting.
Aaron Eisenberg was such a great actor. He had some of the best emotional moments of the show.
Yes indeed- this scene always gets me too
I honestly think Max Grodénchik and Aron Eisenberg deserve a whole lot of credit for saving the Ferengi too. Arguably maybe not as much as Armin Shimerman who got to play Quark as a new kind of Ferengi right from the get-go on DS9, but lesser actors could easily have fumbled those roles. Eisenberg in particular was really good at giving Nog those exaggerated Ferengi mannerisms but making them feel natural.
What about when Nog confronts the Klingons on the promenade and when they see he's not backing down, they respect his honour and move on? Such a badass Nog moment
"Ferengi, you're either very brave or very stupid!"
"Possibly a bit of both."
A good Klingon can recognize and respect bravery, no matter how unexpected the package.
Also living with ptsd and going through war. Nogs a badass and it’s a shame the actor passed
@@kevinkorenke3569 This is well illustrated when Worf and General Martok comment on Garrick's bravery when he returns to work in the wall despite being claustrophobic in the episode where he goes to rescue Enabran Tain.
@@kevinkorenke3569 Gowron also did the same with Quark and I wouldn't call Gowron a good Klingon jeje
I'm near the end of my umpteenth rewatch of DS-9. Quark is a fucking great character. I love his scenes with Sisko and Odo.
Quark and Odo will always be the best definition of Frenemies
Damn straight. I love how odo let's quark get away with some of his crimes just to let him feel like he's won.
*Quark is being supportive and patient with Odo, then mentions how Odo off his game is bad for profits*
Odo: "For a moment there, I thought you were speaking to me as a friend"
Quark: "NAH"
@@hughmilner7013 He was the only one to see how heartbroken Odo was over Kira, and actually helped in kind of a twisted selfish way. But it worked
I don't know, B5's G'Kar and Lando do some amazing work in that area. Two characters that really elevated that show into something more.
@@jasonknott6787 Ferengemies? Either way, I had a brain-fart while trying to pronounce that first word. 😜💨
I know this video was how Deep Space Nine saved the Ferengi, but my personal favorite was Dr. Reyga, the Ferengi who invented metaphasic shielding in the TNG episode Suspicions. They went out of their way to make a Ferengi character who basically acted like the people you see in the Federation, a scientist exploring the universe. They did the same thing with Kurak, the Klingon who was a scientist rather than a warrior out to engage in honorable combat, demonstrating that there is more to their peoples than the one note stereotypes, and it highlighted the discrimination they faced. Dr. Reyga couldn't make any headway with demonstrating his research because the last conference he went to everyone laughed the Ferengi off stage, and even Sisko showed an initial restrained hostility to Nog in the first season when he realizes his son is hanging out with the thief he initially used to blackmail Quark in to not leaving the station. He quickly comes around when he realizes Jake will be friends with whoever he sees fit, and when Jake teaches Nog to read, I think it highlights the lesson that despite our differences, there is so much we can learn from each other.
The Ferengi perspective in Deep Space Nine was invaluable because for all the talk of the Federation about peaceful contact, they're really kind of up their own ass about the no money, non-interference stuff. Being the near cultural opposites, the Ferengi see the less than virtuous motivations of other species and see them for what they are, and they don't shame them for looking out for themselves, in fact they respect it and expect nothing less, and that insight is part of what makes them such a valuable part of the station.
Coincidence that “Suspicions” is on TNG AFTER DS9 started? Don't think so!
Rega not wanting the money from his work was a huge shock to me.
Honorable mention for me with the similar Klingon bit was in Season 2, "Judgement". Where they talk about what "Honor" used to mean. That "Honor" was effectively an idea of service to the state and Klingon society as a whole, acts of personal sacrifice and such. How it got corrupted by the Warrior Caste and used as a tool for their own power. And how various non-warriors still try to embrace their own idea of Honor. Or as we see in DS9 with another Klingon Lawyer where he tries to appropriate Klingon Warrior Honor trappings to apply his practice as a "Battle" of its own way.
Armin is fantastic as Quark, the late Aron Eisenberg as Nog takes us on quite the journey, Max Grodenchik as Rom really comes around, and, last, but definitely not least, Jeffrey Combs is so wonderful as "Brunt, F.C.A."
The Nagus and Moogie are also fantastic characters.
It's funny. I can easily see Combs as his other characters but not as Brunt.
Maybe it's the makeup or something.
@@briancooke1134 I wish Moogie had been smuggled to DS9..The implications of that would have been quite the story arc.
Combs is brilliant in whatever character he plays.
One of my favorite Quark moments was when he stood up to that one Klingon and told him "Go ahead. Do it. Kill a defenseless man! I might die, but you'll be denied your glorious moment of warrior's triumph. And where's the honor in that?" And in doing so, earned the respect of Gowron. That was just awesome!
That was a great episode.
It will never not be funny to me that in the timeline of Star Trek Online, Worf is married to Quark's ex, Grilka.
Clark should have stayed married to Grilka.
Grilka should have stayed married to Quark.
And rom is the grand nagus
@@jatmo6991 - I think that he has stayed in tech, in a way.
In the episode where Rom gets appointed, we learn that Ferenginar is having troubles with nuclear power stations exploding and the like.
My interpretation of Ishka's decision to choose Rom instead if Quark has to do with that.
When the bottom line and shareholders' profit are the ONLY performance metrics of a tech enterprise, it is only a matter of time before the engineering takes a hit - quite often with catastrophic results.
And when potential customers comes to the conclusion that the products are crap, selling stuff may become a problem.
In other words, given what we know by the end of DS9, would you buy any technical gizmo produced by the Ferengi? No.
Or one traded - and tested for defects - by a Ferengi merchant? Maybe, if it is so cheap that it doesn't matter if you have to discard it on arrival.
I think that one of the most herculean tasks for Gran Nagus Rom will be to promote an engineering ethos strong enough to keep power stations from randomly exploding and fill Ferenginar with radiation, and to convince the rest of the galaxy that it is safe to "buy Ferengi" .
She was pretty glorious.
God, I’ll never forget the first time Rom just let off and stood up to Quark; it was the last thing I was expecting out of him. He loved his son, he loved his moogie, and brother or not he’s not going to let Quark’s selfishness or pride sabotage their lives. Rom is a straight champ, and not nearly the loveable but simple doof any of his family thinks he is.
“My son’s happiness is more important to me than anything, even profit!
Think about THAT, brother!!”
@@Smeginator And Rom also sought his OWN happiness as an engineer.....and ended up as the the Grand Nagus and with a hot Bajoran wife!
My favorite Nog episode was when he stayed on the holodeck while suffering from both PTSD and an Injury, and decided to stay there as long as possible. I was watching DS9 in a very dark time in my life, during the start of quarantine. I could relate to that need to escape out of fear of suffering.
"It's only a paper moon" - That's one of my faves as well! Great writing, outstanding acting, hit me in the feels!
Same for me watched that episode last year during one of my dark points and it just made so much sence
I also like that "great river" episode where nog executes a series of trades - it showed growth in that he went from disliking ferenghi culture to treating it with bemusement and admiration
The actor actually got thanks from actual veterans for his performance.
I've generally hated holodeck episodes, but I have a huge amount of time for the Vic Fontaine character, and yeah, i think that PTSD journey is great. I've seen war vets on other Trek Forums talk about that episode and how Nogs journey really spoke to their own struggles with PTSD, and how they wished they had a Vic Fontaine to lean on when they got out of the service. Its great stuff.
This quote sums up the politics of a large portion of the population:
"Ferengi workers don't want to STOP the exploitation, we want to be the ones exploiting people!"
Treat people in your debt like family! Exploit them.
“Star Trek isn’t family friendly anymore!”
Meanwhile, in TOS: women have costumes that barely don’t fall off their bodies, with exposed midriffs, thighs, often cleavage, etc…
Sure, Trek was fairly saturated with sexual energy.
Personally, I would much rather watch an overtly sexualized program than a program which fetishizes pain, despair, and suffering.
The human form is a wonderful, beautiful thing that *should* be celebrated.
On the other hand, Hate, violence, greed and despair should never be elevated or celebrated. New Trek revels in sadness and violence and it breaks my heart to think that a new generation of viewers are experiencing Star Trek in this way for the first time.
Don't forget that they often showed off their panties as well.
Command wore gold
Security wore red
And women wore less
~The trouble with tribbles
but no bellybuttons!
I always thought of the Ferengi, not as straight-up enemies of the Federation, but more along the lines of "pains in the ass" of the Federation.
Also, never let us forget that one commercial for DS9 toys where Quark hawks his own action figure.
The whole ‘ No Money’ thing was explained brilliantly by the Orville. Once matter replication (3d printing) became advanced enough material objects lose all value. What worth is a pile of diamonds or a sports car if you can press a button and whip out a dozen?
Instead reputation become currency, being the best at what you do is value. People still have ambition but it’s to garner respect and esteem. Cultural expectation and family pressure become the motivators to get a job. It’s a move from a greed/guilt culture to social standing/shame culture.
Which as you can imagine may be a real existential horror to live under if you’re not one of the more elite people.
Also something that might be impossible to achieve.
Currency is access to the software which drives the replicators, too. Even in the Federation, opportunity costs exist, albeit at levels of energy and matter use that rival yellow and white star energy levels. The cost for individuals? Dedication to an art or craft, playing the role of infinite variety in infinite combination, filling the unforgiving minute with 60 seconds of distance run.
I remember in this one ST:TOS episode, the Squire of Gothos tries to bribe Captain Kirk with gold and jewels but Kirk is not impressed. He says we can make as much of this as we want at any time so it has no value.
I always viewed it as an Earth Specific thing. Because there's a loooot of mentions of commerce, trade, money, etc, in the Federation right from the get go. From the profit seeking Dilithium Miners in a TOS Henry Mudd episode, to trading with the Quatloo Currency being mentioned, Tellerites being mentioned as fierce traders and the economic power of the Federation, or even the opening scene to Star Trek: The Next Generation which has Dr. Crusher in a market place in Federation Space buying goods with money.
But on Earth? We never see that. We see bars exist. But no mentions of tabs or checks to clear or anything. We see Restaurants exist but no pay or anything, just people coming because they wanted it and a man running a damned fine restaurant just because he liked slinging out the good old food. Picard's family making wine because... it's what they chose to do. Etc. Jake Sisko wrote books and had a home because... well he probably filled out some paperwork and asked. And when he was done writing and wanted to become a theoretical physicist in temporal anomalies they just said "Sure" and gave him the means to do that.
At least how it always made sense to me. On Earth, it's meant to be a Utopia. It's compared to Paradise quite a bit at various points. If you want something, you were given it. You were free to achieve the goals you wanted or pursue your happiness without worries about making the mortgage or having to sleep in some junk filled trailer in the desert...
Rom is one of my all time favorite characters. The over looked brother that helps save the day in the end. Rom along with Obrien are the two hardest working characters in all of Star Trek. Just amazing writing for them both.
I love the scene where Rom comes up with the idea for the replicating mines. Where he waffles back and forth between being a diabolical genius creating a mine field that's neigh impossible to destroy and.... freaking out about how he and Lila are going to live together in his tiny quarters.
He’s Patrick, but if he stayed smart.
O'Brien Must Suffer.
Later seasons of DS9 tried to hammer in that the ONLY reason Odo stays with Starfleet was because of Kira. I never bought that because... come on, you really expect us to believe he has nothing with Quark? NOTHING?
The Quark and Odo farewell at the end of DS9 was so well done- Odo STILL acting Like he dislikes/cares nothing for Quark, and Quark seeing right thru it and getting emotional
The chase... Odo tries to catch Quark, Quark outsmarting (trying too) Odo. They kept each other on their toes and it was a fantastic part of ds9
I love Keevans last hateful glare after he gets shot. "I hate Ferengi...."
Brunt, yet another great Jeffrey Coombs character
Excuse me. His full name is "Brunt, F.C.A."
Brunt is a close second to Shran as my favorite Trek character portrayal by Combs.
Brunt is fantastic, mostly because he is pretty much the IRS agent from hell.
Quark was basically the head of a small organized crime family when we meet him and by the time we leave him.... i dont even know what he is besides awesome.
Also, I feel super lucky having to have gotten to meet him and Avery Brooks.
Quark and Odos relationship always reminded me of the weird love/hate relationship that existed between my parents dog and the neighbors cat. For a decade they fought, hissed, barked, chased each other around, but always seemed to be interacting. And then as they got older I'd occasionally go outside and see the dog curled up out the back , and the cat asleep next to it. Then one might wake up and take a swipe at the other, and then being old , mild playfighting before back to naps. its like a pair of old generals who where once at war but grew to respect each other and even like each other. I think thats kinda how Odo and Quark evolve. At the start, Odo *really* dislikes quark, and thats mutual. But by the end , oh Odo still likes to harass Quark, but at the end of the day, the two make each others lives interesting and they kinda respect each other.
"I meant every word of it."
"So did I."
"Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha."
@@daviniarobbins9298 And then they kissed
Odo learned that cork isn't So bad and quark learned that The primary job of the police is to protect capital.
@@FrancisR420I mean, a smuggler and a grifter wouldn’t seem so bad after you have to deal with a powerful, ethnocentric, nigh sociopathic empire…who are also basically your parents.
the ferengi in ds9 have always been a joy of mine. I felt that having a neutral alien really helped feed a sense realism into ds9. You won’t alway get groups that side with one or the other, you will get people who will play for what ever side that comes out on top. Then to see the regulars like Quark, Rom, Nog break out into the spot light, going against what is expected in them in their own society (quark less so but still). Just another reason why ds9 is and will continue to be my favourite trek.
My opinion on them has evolved a lot over the years. When the show was originally airing I didn't really dig the Ferengi-centered episodes, but now, when I go back and watch them again, they're often some of my favorites. And yeah, the major Ferengi characters -- Quark, Rom, and Nog primarily -- are all fantastic.
I finally was able to watch DS9 the winter/spring of 2019/2020. I remember telling my son that I like Ferengi now because of Quark and he has to watch the show. It was before Rom quit the bar to work for Starfleet. It is my favorite Trek series.
Same for me...The humor,the complex characters...I felt DS9 had the most realist protrail of what living in a tube in space would have been like.
Quark needed to be the "expected/traditional" Ferengi for there to be family drama. The fact that he, as the "successful one", was outwardly embarrassed by Rom (even if privately he was proud of him) and was mortified by his mother's actions while still loving her deeply is a very common family dynamic in real life, and it was explored expertly by the DS9 writers. In many ways, Quark is very similar to Hyacinth Bucket. Trying very hard to occupy the upper tiers of Ferengi society but with a family that is quite happy to be the opposite. (Although Quark is much more subtle about it than Hyacinth.)
"When in doubt, sue for peace. It confuses the heck out of your enemies."
The episode where Nog gives moral support and negotiating tips to an overwhelmed teenage girl, and she then uses his advice to successfully strike a peace treaty.
Oh yeah I forgot about that
Great video! I think it's worth noticing and definitely not a coincidence that behind a lot of these characters there are Jewish actors and writers (like Armin, Ira, Michael or Max) who knew how to subvert these antisemitic tropes and create nuanced complex characters out of breaking these constraints for them & for the viewers.
This is a super important point, thank you for making it!
That really is a good point. Through the whole show, Quark never had any of those old stereotypical mannerism like hunching over or rubbing his hands together menacingly. He always had his shoulders thrown back and spoke with elegance and charm. Heck, looking back he constantly reminds me of Al Swearengen from Deadwood.
Edit: Wow, I just got the part of the vid where they specifically talk about those things. LOL oops.
I suspect that a lot of the Ferengi were played by Jews because they needed short actors. Like the opposite of how they needed tall actors to play Klingons.
I think Rom was a very important part of saving the Ferengi. In his first appearances, his interactions with Keiko in the episodes about her setting up the school for example, he was very generic. Then he started to become the comic relief bumbling buffoon character. Then, because this is DS9, he became a complex character where he was smart and capable but just not in a typical Ferengi way. I love him in the episode where Keiko gets possessed and has O'Brien doing a bunch of modifications to the station because Rom figures out what she's planning before O'Brien does and is just like "Hey Boss, why are we trying to destroy the wormhole aliens?" and O'Brien's like "Wait, what?".
To be fair to O'Brian, his wife and child were basically being held at gun point during that whole thing so it's understandable he was a bit distracted.
@@SapphWolf or he was trying not to think of the consequences, and just do the task they asked. Voluntary obliviousness
@@jawstrock2215I mean that's fair but it's a pretty justified reason to be. If I had to choose between my woman and my baby girl or literally anyone else. Then I'm going to choose them no matter what the consequences are
Quark : I think I figured out why Humans don't like Ferengi.
Sisko : Not now, Quark.
Quark : The way I see it, Humans used to be a lot like Ferengi: greedy, acquisitive, interested only in profit. We're a constant reminder of a part of your past you'd like to forget.
Sisko : Quark, we don't have time for this.
Quark : You're overlooking something. Humans used to be a lot worse than the Ferengi: [slavery], concentration camps, interstellar wars. We have nothing in our past that approaches that kind of barbarism. You see? We're nothing like you... we're better.
Always thought that was extremely dishonest or extremely stupid rant from Quark. Ferengi society is built on slave labor, women are property and have no rights.
The Magnificent Ferengi aka Weekend at Keevan's 😂
Rom will forever be my favorite ancillary character in all of Trek. The way he incrementally stands up to both Quark and his own culture's perceptions will always be the best example of what Star Trek stands for.
One of my favorite Ferengi episodes isn't really that Ferengi-centric, but it does provide a glimpse into what is probably the idealistic core of Ferengi philosophy stripped of the greed that often corrupts such ideals. Treachery, Faith and the Great River presents the idea that if someone puts in the effort of getting things to the people who need those things in exchange of things they have too much of (but someone else needs) then everyone will have everything they need.
Nog not only joined Starfleet, he is also part of the rather exclusive club of people to have beaten the Kobayashi Maru test, which he did by trying to haggle with the klingons, which the simulation had no subroutine for.
When was this shown?? I must have missed it!
Quark has been a fantastic character, who is a little less of a typical Ferengi than he wants people to see. How about when he tipped Kira's resistance cell off to the Dominion bringing down the minefield, and later when he rescues Kira, Rom and company from the holding cell, killing the Jem'Hadar guards. These are definitely not the actions of a typical Ferengi.
Excellent video. Great discussion of some behind the scenes stuff and how the Ferengi became a big, valuable part of the Star Trek franchise.
The look of disbelief and shock on his face.
Quark and Grilka were endgame - I will die upon this hill
Seriously, if they had stuck with it they would have been the most terrifying power couple in the quadrant.
My circle of friends called season one of TNG "nerds on a set". The Ferengi were a disaster, but the entire first season was full of unintentionally comic moments.
It got better.
Lonely Among Us is the most unintentionally funny episode of that season.
@@ZuluRomeo
Season 1 has such memorably goofy moments that rewatching becomes a pleasure.
“Comorbidity” is such a truly outstanding word choice at 15:52 I just had to mention it. Strong writing, strong delivery, 10/10.
Very thoughtful and well presented essay on the Ferringhi. One thing that you probably didn’t have time for was the humanization (or humanoid-ization) of Quark’s family around his Moogie, as played lovingly by Andrea Martin. There’s nothing like viewing sons through the love and frustrations of their mothers to really define who they are.
Sorry, Ferengi.
Andrea Martin is always gold- pairing her with Wallace Shawn as Zek and it got even better- anytime I hear Rom go "Moogieeee!!!" is wonderful
Jeffrey Comb's scream when they shoot Keevan will never not be hilarious, I love that episode :3
"Keenan's dying words: I hate Ferengi's.
Iggy's character's last line: I hate Ferengies.
I recall an episode of TNG that had a Ferengi scientist who acknowledged that he is a contradiction of his people because he chose a path dedicated to the advancement of science rather than capital gain. Do you recall that episode?
Quark js a cool character. He grew up in a house full of a-typical Ferangi but became your typical Ferangi making him the odd one out in his family.
You’re right of course that he has that dynamic now with the rest of his family - but the writing is so good that they also made it make perfect psychological sense with their shared history, rather than something Weird and Wacky about him or anything like that.
Since his father was traditional, he was just not skilled. So really, Quark took more after his father and Rom took more after his mother. There’s also the factor of it being rather common to deliberately rebel against your family, especially since their father died and Rom was the only one to stay and keep their Moogie company. So _of course_ Quark becomes the odd one out!
Good video. Though, I must respectfully object to your assertion that Leck was a bad shot. Considering the man is a professional assassin, it stands to reason that he didn't go far in that business without having at least a decent aim. He did make one of his shots in the actual mission, albeit it was with a knife but still. Considering his lust for blood, I think it's more like he killed holo Ishka because he liked killing people and used the 'mission failed' and 'putting her out of her misery' bit as an excuse rather than missing and covering his ass. But that's just my opinion.
One of my favorite moments in DS9 is the challenge in the Great Hall on Qo'nos in "House of Quark." Seeing the Ferengi interact with the Klingon culture that is diametrically opposed to everything they stand for is amazing. And Gowron is a hilarious striaght man character through the whole thing.
"I am Quark, son of Keldar, and I have come to answer the challenge of D'Ghor, son of… whatever."
One of the funniest scenes in that episode is the sight of Quark lecturing the Klingon High Council on finances and having everyone, including Chancellor Gowron, furiously tapping away at the calculator apps in their PADDs in amazement.
The Magnificent Ferengi is also a great quest line in STO where Quark gets the gang back together to steal the Sword of Khaless and you get to play as various members of the team at different stages of the mission.
I loved playing that one
Quark better hope that Worf doesn't murder him.
In Season 7, a community of Pah'Wraith-worshippers led by Gul Dukat makes Empok Nor their home. What did they think when they first ventured aboard the station and found a brain-dead Vorta there in the corridor near the airlock, endlessly bouncing off that wall? And what did they do with him?
Use the airlock to get rid of him.
Every time I watch DS9 I am amazed at how the Ferengi actors were able to show emotions and personalities under heavy prosthetics.
i never really saw a racist stereotype in the Ferengi, but now that you have pointed it out, it seems obvious.
i always thought it was a caricature of modern-day CEOs and Businessmen only focused on money and scheming for more.
I dunno, I don't see it, but then I haven't seen the original TNG ferengi episodes in decades.
Funny thing I just realized watching season 7 of DS9.
In most of their history, the Ferengi have almosy NEVER been in an all-out war. Every other faction has experienced war in some way, but not the Ferengi. They've always been neutral traders and to me at least, that's pretty impressive.
War is good for business… if you are selling the weapons… not when you are using up the merchandise!
OMG, I forget they Weekend At Bernie's-ed that Vorta! XD
The existence of the FCA and Ferengi business licenses shows that they aren't as capitalist as they might like to think. (Much like many "capitalists" in our own world.)
Turns out taking any ideology to its extreme is never sustainable
The FCA is the ultimate in Plutocratic governance and regulation via bribery.
I never even thought about the anti-semetic implications but yeah that’s very unfortunate. Glad they got so fleshed out. I know not everyone loves their centric episodes in ds9 but I think they’re all bangers.
You know it'll be a fun episode when the last words before the opening titles are "Brunt. F. C. A."
I never saw any Anti-Semitic sentiment, but then I’m not Jewish So May be blind. I thought the Ferengi was a sneering satire of Capitalism. A very badly executed one.
I like their episodes too, even when thinking that I bet people maybe didn't enjoy them back in the day (I watched it as a kid then but don't remember much from that time).
Loved this. My favorite Ferengi episode is "The Bar Association," where Rom forms a union. THAT one really shows the potential of the Ferengi to grow beyond their own limitations as characters to me.
Oh that episode is fantastic.
Shout out to Lt. NOG!! The first ferengi in star fleet
It's Captain Nog now
Lek is forever my favourite Ferengi character he’s a quirky blood thirsty weirdo and he knows it and owns it
So well put, lol
TNG: "These Stereotypians are stereotypically Stereotypian"
DS9: "These are hello wait these are people? Lifeforms, little lifeforms where are you?"
I think when it comes to the anti-Semitic potentiality of the Ferengi it might be important that not all cultures view it necessarily that way. Armin Shimerman himself is attributed with saying:
"In America, people ask 'Do the Ferengi represent Jews?' In England, they ask 'Do the Ferengi represent the Irish?' In Australia, they ask if the Ferengi represent the Chinese[…] The Ferengi represent the outcast… it's the person who lives among us that we don't fully understand."
I think seeing the Ferengi as a grotesque portrayal of the worst stereotypes of Jewish people is primarily based on where you and I grew up and the prejudices we saw around us. Other folks see them as grotesque portrayals of other stereotypes. Regardless it does remain that they probably do represent stereotypes. Which is why Deep Space Nine probably spent so much time trying to flesh their culture out: because what was Deep Space Nine trying to tell us if not to look past stereotypes and see the strength and humanity in the other, the outsider, the outcast?
It might not be exactly coincidental. I've heard in some unofficial sources the Ferengi were based on two real people... both of whom happened to be Jewish. Michael Eisner and Jeffery Katzenberg.. who tried to screw Gene Roddenberry out of his Star Trek royalties in the 70s.
Armin Shimmerman was absolutely terrific!!!! as Quark! And I adored his relationship withDaz, through which we learned so much about both Jadzia and Quark.
P.S.: And may I remind everybody here that he also played the wonderfully snarky Principal Snyder on BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER.
OH MY GOD I never would have realized they were one in the same.
The relationship between Quark and Odo is my favourite part of DS-9, both of them knowing the others weakness and exploiting it whenever possible but also an admiration for each other and what they do. They realise they serve a purpose on the station, they may not like what the other does but recognise that without them, the proverbial would inevitably would hot the fan. Their character interactions are not only perfectly written but also superbly acted. I didn't notice the anti-semetic undertones and it looks like the writers in DS-9 tried to flesh out the Ferengi species after a throwaway line from Kira to Dax along the lines of "Hoe can you associate with them, they're misogynistic trolls? Later in anther series the Ferengi homeworld is shown as a rainy planet where the dwellings are often round and domed with a very low entrance - they are literal trolls that eat bugs and live in caves. Genius.
Quark and Odo actually do care about one another. I see them more as rivals than true enemies.
My favorite episode of DS9 with the Ferengi is when Nog basically gets one over on Quark with that whole No-Jake Consortium thing. I loved that whole business thing how it went full circle on the station.
My second favorite is the one where Quark becomes head of a Klingon House. Watching him baffle the Grand Council with accounting and economics was hilarious! XD
One thing about Leck - he 100% shot holo-Ishka on purpose, not by accident.
When he saw the training mission going to hell, he basically went “fuck this” and blew her away anyway
Leck was just such an amoral badass. What a great character.
I met Armin Shimerman at a convention. Really nice guy! When I told he how my mother was Quark's biggest fan, he said: "Well! You tell your mother Quark sends his regards." She was thrilled.
I have been subscribed to this channel for a few years now and can I just say that your content is excellent. You put so much thought and work into videos like these and as a Trek fan I really appreciate it.
Thank you so much. :)
I do like the part where Quark lements that he should have got into weapons, but it was too impersonal. He became a bar owner because he is a "people person." I just always liked that idea that even he took a hit because he likes talking to people :P
"My house is my house!" 🙅♂️"As are its contents!" 🙏 I've found that quoting the Ferengi Rules of Aquisition at Evangelicals who quote the Bible at me can produce amusing results 😉 Also: Is the fact that Ferengi view pregnancy as a rental *more* misogynistic than certain human views on it or possibly *less* so?
Very much so, doubly so knowing that Ferengi women cannot earn profit so charging them for gestating a male Ferengi’s child is a systemic lock of indentured servitude.
Tl;dr their system and laws are misogynistic.
this is a brilliant idea!
@@DoctorProph3t That they are indeed! But there are people here on Earth right now who would see it not as a rental, but a form of ownership. Who, for instance, feel entitled to mess with and intrude on the lives of women who have fallen pregnant or who have carried a pregnancy to term. Or who will deny a woman an abortion, a surgical sterilisation or a hysterectomy, no matter how desperately she wants one - that, too, is a form of claiming ownership of her womb! Like Steve said, the Ferengi represent us...
Indeed, a woman who does not want to be pregnant is in a difficult situation, however she got there - be that a rape, a mistake, a prophylactic failure, etc.
But your solution to that problem - to kill the child that she now carries - is sick, evil, and inhuman.
@@yehudahecht1520 that’s just like, your opinion, man. What if it’s an alien that just flew into the enterprise and up a Troi to experience human existence? No one should be obligated to be it’s incubator, rent payments or not.
One of my favourite scenes about Ferengi and Klingon masculinity is when he has to fight D'Ghor on behalf of Grilka and instead drops the bat'leth and kneels before him, shaming him and the rest of the Klingon Council.
The Ferengi went from one-note joke on TNG to one of the most fascinating (and in some ways sympathetic) species in the Trek universe on DS9. That took skill and talent and only Ira Steven Behr and Ronald Moore could have pulled off such a Herculean task.
Yeah, note - Gene "wanted to" include something freaky - **and** an adult with restraint stepped in and *_*prevented it.*_* Clearly there are no adults working on the Bad Reboot crap.
Yeah, note that y'all complain how NuTrek supposedly "goes against Roddenberry's vision", now vintage Trek is sooo much better because it had people *squashing* Roddenberry's vision. Contradiction, what contradiction? I see no contradiction, Sir! /sarcasm
One of other proof of the growth for both Klingons and ferengi is the house of quark. I love seeing the two best fleshed out species in Star Trek. They seem to be even better flushed out than the federation in some aspects.
Great episode. Thanks again.
Can plarb please come back to visit our favorite ensigns? I love his misadventures.
The Ferengi are arguably one of the three most developed cultures in the franchise, alongside the Vulcans and Klingons. I really like them now. The three cultures are also the ones with the most non-human characters I enjoy, which is probably because of how much I like each of those three cultures.
The Cardassians and Bajorans are more developed I'd say, also thanks to DS9.
DS9 is just so good, peak television
The Ferengi were also built up at Encounter at Farpoint as people who ate those who displeased them.
Of course Riker might've been bluffing when he said that.
Not only is Iggy Pop in an episode of DS9. Also Iggy Pop was in an episode of DS9 and want found exposing himself near the crew donut table.
I know I'm gonna regret asking, but what story am I missing here?
Deep space 9 is the best thing star trek ever did!
You touched on it a bit but I liked in Little Green Men when after they ruled out being in the divine treasury they fearfully asked if they were in the other place. The Vault of Eternal Destitution. And Quark rules it out immediately with a declaration of "The Bar was showing a PROFIT!"
The one other thing DS9 did, that was a more subtle change, was using the word opportunity interchangeably with profit. Finding new business was an important aspect that kept the Ferengi pushing outwards and at the frontiers. Or the great material continuum still provided for Nog even if he wasn't in business for himself but presented him with the opportunity to acquire needed provisions for the station.
Ferenghi is the Arab form of "Frank", which Arabs and Byzantines used as a general term for Western Europeans. They were meant to be a parody of Western culture, but it's impossible to parody capitalism in this way without hitting tropes very close to those used in antisemitism.
Having Ferengi as adversaries in the early days of TNG, had it worked would have been a masterstroke. We the audience would then be rooting for the communist Federation against the capitalist Ferengi Alliance at the end of the Cold War. It takes a really powerful work of fiction to accomplish that. It reminds me of Battlestar Gallactica’s storyline on New Caprica where the characters we usually support become terrorists and insurgents, and fans somewhat support them, even as the US was dealing with the same problems by Iraqis. Though BSG also accomplished this sort of inversion to a lesser degree even earlier by making the heroes pagans and the villains monotheists.
I never saw the Ferengi as jewish. If your first thought when you see a greedy alien race in a sci fi series is this must be a references to jewish people perhaps you are the one with the bias
100% this. Not once in all the times have i ever watched trek in the past and saw the Ferengi as a caricature of jews or their culture. Wtf. This is such a wild take its almost absurd.
One of my favorite scenes with Quark is when he complains to Odo that he makes too much noise when he shapeshifts into a field mouse 🐀
Aron Eisenberg as Nog explaining why he wants to enter Starfleet gets me every time: great actors & refined scripts, Deep Space 9 is amazing
After the hints and references in the last few episodes, I sense an episode about Lawxanna Troi in the making.
Yesplz
I hope he includes her playing the computer as well.
Especially the, I think 2, episodes Majel talks to herself.
i still like her as no. one in Star trek TOS
My in-universe headcanon on the difference between the original TNG Ferengi and the Ferengi later in the franchise is that the Ferengi don’t place any value on entering their military. Any Ferengi with any potential ability to do business AT ALL is expected to go into business. Only the absolute least intelligence and least competent Ferengi, who have no chance of making profit except by taking it by force (the Ferengi military being effectively privateers) would ever sign up for their military. So that’s who the Enterprise is going to meet when they’re engaged in hostile actions with a Ferengi ship, as opposed to the Ferengi you will meet owning a bar and running a black market on DS9.
I think you're the first person I've heard of besides me who liked Iggy Pop playing the Vorta in that episode. Everyone likes to dunk on his performance and I don't get why.
I enjoyed it, and Steve's description of it is absolutely spot on.
They're just mad he had to put on a shirt for the role.
I never saw anti semitism, but the Firangi in TNG were really one dimensional and DS9 did them a great service in fleshing them out
As someone who's Jewish, I can't understand how people miss the reference. It is really there, with all of Quark's "family" as well as himself actually being Jewish, as well as Ira Steven Behr. It's an examination, in my opinion. Turn it around a few times, look deeply and think.
A few things: 1. There wasn’t a single Ferengi centric DS9 episode that I didn’t laugh through 2. No slavery? Didn’t a ferengi enslave the Enterprise crew in the episode where some of the main cast turns into children? 3. There was one non-funny Next Gen episode that showed another Ferengi break from the mold, it had a Ferengi scientist who developed some tech or something and didn’t mention anything about profit the whole episode.
There's so much to love about DS9 but I think the Ferengi are possibly my favourites of all the cast. It's great to see them getting some well deserved love...& I'm not talking Oo-Mox ;)
I don't like the idea that everytime we have a Goblin character, we are made to assume its an insult to jewish people.
Yes, it is the ancient mean meme that Jewish people were associated as Goblins, but Goblins are not Jewish people.
Please, everyone, move beyond that.
"Lust for life".
I would've had to do it too.
At that point in his existence, Keevan was a mere Passenger who never wanted to be the Ferengi's dog.
Too much? 😜
I think the interesting thing about ds9 is the idea that federation ideals are so powerful all other societies are becoming entranced by them - Klingons, ferengi, cardassian and bajorans all seem to be trending towards the ideals of the Federation. You could even label it as a particularly whitwahed depiction of cultural imperialism.
The writers knew that where the root beer dialog came from.
Highlighted by Eddington’s speech to Sisko.
It really is one of the things that rub me the wrong way, how badly they messed up a perfect foil!
Could you imagine just how the series would have played out if there was another Federation sized Empire spreading it's boarders, and the two have only just found out about each other?
The whole series was meant to have a first contact feel to them, meeting new people was the primary mission after all. Contacting a large empire for the first time, instead of small worlds the Enterprise could crush alone, would have been a massive highlighting of that concept. We could have had lead up time to develop the 'mysteriousness' of first contact, rumors and artifacts being traded across a few frontier colonies which suggests there is 'someone' out there. In particular - gold pressed Latinum could have shown itself about this time.
Instead of being told what the Ferangi where meant to be, we could have been shown it through the crew's own discoveries....
Cause I can't drop the subject:
Imagine if, after three or four episodes of build up, the Enterprise finally has moved deep enough into 'unknown space' that they are on the border of this Ferengi empire. They come across a fairly small and run down ship, who promises to take them to the high priest or some other title that the audience will determine quickly is made up. It is a trap and they are lured into a region of space which is hazardous, interferes with all ship processes, and then ambushed by more ships just to make it so one sided it cliff hangs midway for an advertisement break.
While the Ferengi begin to 'open negotiations' on the price of tugging them out, the crew work to counter whatever is causing the ship to be pretty much dead in the water. Weasly, because it is early T.N.G. and they hammed him hard, figures it out by reverse engineering the Ferengi tech or something impossible. They can turn off the Ferengi's protection just long enough to escape back into Federation space for some more 'forget the primary mission, let us start escorting diplomats back to earth' episodes to follow.
As different as both are, each will consider the destruction of the other to be 'non-profitable.'
Basically what they did with the dominion: lots of little hints followed by an unexpected reveal with the main characters in jeopardy
The thing I like most about the Ferengi is how they gave up that misogyny when they realized letting women take part in the economy would actually double their fortunes.
It’s kind of ridiculous, but it also demonstrates that ideally capitalism isn’t evil; it’s pragmatic. And requires a free market rather than one group holding all the money and holding it for themselves.
That's actually an interesting take
Ya know, I never realized what a lovable scamp Keevan was.
But I gotta say, Quark is my second favorite character in DS9, and I love the Ferengi-centric episodes, because I think he and they both have more growth than any other character or species on the show. They might be there for comedic effect, but they're also so well written in DS9.
My favorite? Morn, obviously. Even if he's a bit of a chatterbox, but that's fine, since he has a lovely singing voice.
Who mourns for Morn is one of the BEST episodes!
'Afternoon, everybody...'
DS9 did such a good job redeeming the ferengi that I, a proudly Jewish woman, named my beloved rescue kitten Nog, because she, like her namesake, is missing her left leg!
We can’t really say Ferengi represents only the dark sides of capitalism. In multiple occasions the principles of Ferengi philosophy helped saving the day, teaching us and the characters how sometimes selfishness, greed and a cold calculating behavior can be much more useful than self-referential idealism and counterproductive altruism.
A very interesting comment.
I'm all for idealism and altruism, and consider myself proudly "woke" and "SJW" (really, what kind of a person can consider that fighting for social justice is something BAD???).
On the other hand, well-meaning, generous people can cause serious damage sometimes.
Every time I watch the Ferengi episodes of early TNG, I have to remind myself of how Roddenberry originally wanted them to be: walking manifestations of the Chad meme.
Oh mother of eff, now I can't unsee that!
The Chad Meme? What is it about?
@@MihcaelTube google is your friend.
@@alexandriamaguire8224 And that is how @MichealTube took the red pill lol
One of my favorite viewing experiences was watching The Last Outpost with my husband. He had only seen late TNG and DS9 at that point, so that episode was a shock to say the least. Every time they did a particularly idiotic gesture, he would rewind, make me rewatch the clip, and yell, "Why?! What are they doing?! WHY ARE THEY LIKE THIS?!"
On the flip side, I finally got my friend that liked TNG to try DS9. She didn't want to because she heard the Ferengi were main characters. It took some convincing to try and explain to her how much improved they were. Her initial attitude was probably similar to people watching DS9 as it premiered.
One of my favorite DS9 episodes is the one where Quark and Odo are stranded on a planet and need to get a machine to a freezing mountaintop. 10/10 banter in that episode haha