Honestly, I think Entrapta and Hordak was my favorite pairing in that show. When it was clear she wasn't afraid of him (simply because it didn't occur to her to be) we finally got some serious depth in Hordak's own complex and it was strangely moving watching him try to be nice without really knowing how.
@@josephperez2004 *entrapta running around making a robot, enters hordaks lab searching for something* hordak: who dares enter my sanctum? hordak: SHOW YOURSELF! *entrapta looks around the corner* hi hordak! you got a screw driver?
Another interesting contrast between Glimmer and Catra is that Glimmer was a very sheltered child because of the war, whilst Catra was an actively abused child, which plays into the same dynamic
@@newhelmfun72 Shadow Weaver frequently reminded Catra of how trash she was at keeping up with the others, and also how she only kept her around because Adora liked her. So yeah she was kinda alienated as the underdog because of that EDIT: or... undercat?
“She-Ra” analysis is so great because it always boils down to “The effects of abandonment anxieties and depression in the character arcs of Princess Snuggly-Wuggly-Kins and Lord Scaryevilbadman”.
@@Nai-qk4vp Sort of, but himbos are stronger and more masculine. Also they don't have as many variants as bimbos, so for know it also implies a good guy that thinks about others.
@@Nai-qk4vp Not quite. A Himbo has a lot of traditional masculine qualities. Physical strength, the ineffable quality of amiable bro-ness, coupled with not a lot of brains. And nu-Scorpia has all of that.
why do i feel like someone in the writer's room mentioned that to explain why glimmer did something and then they liked it so much they decided to put it in the show
Catra was told she was bad so many times that she believed it unconditionally. Glimmer was told that she was good so many times that she believed it unconditionally. There was no, "You're good if..." or, "You're bad if..." there's just, "You're X, so no matter what happens or what you do, it comes back to you being X. The natural order of things is you being X." And so anything at variance from that became impossible to confront. "Things are going well? That can't be right -- I'm evil!" "Things aren't going my way? But I'm *right!* That's no fair!"
That discussion of Glimmer reminded me of a quote: “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” ― C. S. Lewis
It's an interesting debate. If there ever was a person / persons who could always be free from bias and always make the best decisions for as many people as possible, would living in a dictatorship under them be considered undesirable? In the real world, this can't happen for a number of reasons, not the least of witch the mortality of this perfectly pure person. But if such a platonic ideal could be reached, would it be worth it?
I mean, then we handed the entire economy over to robber barons and it doesn't actually seem like they can genuinely be satisfied since they keep lobbying for increasingly lax tax codes and environmental regulations, so that they can destroy the planet for short-term profits even faster. So C S Lewis might have just been full of shit.
@@InRealTime769 Actually, it would still be tyranny, no matter how good the dictator was. Strong leadership is important as a facilitator for the process of government, but majority rule is _always_ better than dictatorship or one-party rule. The reasons why are fairly simple: A) individuals can only ever see the world they already know. It is physically impossible for any individual to be unbiased, because they are ultimately a person, defined by their own personality and background, and they can only have the one they have. Without other perspectives telling them they're wrong, then their society succeeds or fails on their unchallenged and arbitrary assumptions. B) Government is and always has been a _collaborative_ process. Rulership is a game of regimes and factions, an alliance of independent interests. Even from the earliest days of complex societies it was impossible for individual leaders to handle the whole business of government, and even if they could, no king can enforce their own laws alone. A nation's government is a complex organisation, and that organisation is not of dedicated machines, it's your family, your friends, your neighbours, your bosses, enemies, landlords, tenants, schoolmates, clansmen, tribesmen, and so on. Unless it isn't. If a government's bureaucracy, police, and military are primarily drawn from a particular caste or castes, such as a narrow selection of ethnic groups, religious sects, or socioeconomic ranks, it will naturally reflect the worldview of those people and not others. That platonic ideal dictator, no matter who they are, must make decisions in accordance with the interests of those who serve them - or, more accurately, who serve themselves by serving the dictator. If that dictator decides to try and take away their land and redistribute it without their consent, for example, they'll dump that dictator like a flaming bag of dog poo and replace them with a more suitable ruler, the kind who makes more reasonable decisions, as far as that ruling caste is concerned. That exact eventuality has happened countless times throughout history to forward-thinking reformist leaders. If the government does not draw its servants from all sections of society, and thus directly involve the people in policymaking anyway, its laws and policies will inevitably be distorted towards the narrow interests of the people who constitute it. The underlying function of government, the reason why people ever allow others to have power over them, is to better meet their own needs. It is preferable in an agricultural society to have a government than not, because organisation and cooperation lead to better results than chaos. But, if the people cannot advocate for their own needs directly, and demand absolutely and participate in a government of public confidence, those needs simply will not be met, not even in theory. Without involvement in government, there is only repression and neglect.
@@andrewcapra7153 C.S. Lewis was usually full of it. Dude loved himself some autocrats (and no money for guessing who he thinks should get all that power).
What fascinates me about Catra is how she's basically stuck in a vicious circle at that point of the story. Her self-loathing makes her unable to interact with people without her usual artifices, because she can't consider that people could possibly enjoy her company and value her for who she is, independently of what she accomplished. So she hides her need for social interactions behind authority (like demanding a field report instead of asking "how was your day ?"). But that inability of her to sustain a genuine relationship participates (among other things) in driving people away from her, fulfilling this self-realizing prophecy that no one can like/love her for who she is, which in turn feeds her self-loathing. Yeah, Shadow Weaver really fucked up that kitten.
Which results in me, as Shadow Weaver was sacrificing herself, going "good riddance biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitch" because she did not earn redemption.
@@DarkestElemental616 Shadow Weaver's sacrifice is fucking _masterful_ writing because it manages to take one of the most selfless acts possible, giving one's own life for others, and turning into a selfish, manipulative thing. God I hate her, and I love that the writers were able to inspire that feeling in me.
One aspect that I consider something of a mirror that you didn't touch on: as Catra is driving the one good influence in her life away from her, Glimmer is actively getting closer to what is quite possibly the worst influence in her life: Shadow Weaver.
I was honestly really into learning about Shadowweaver. She's not exactly evil for the sake of evil. In a way she's more like Entrapta: there is a goal she has and she will pursue it through the most effective means available to her. She used to be one of the mages of Mystacor but chafed at what she viewed as cowardice in the face of an enemy, hiding behind magical barriers and doing nothing. She believed they could accomplish more and part of her rational for that was the fact she could recognize talent, like with Mycah (oof, that is a relationship I'd have loved to get more screentime in the last season if it were possible). I think the main thing with Shadowweaver was she had this 'greater good' complex, that the people capable of creating change had an obligation to do so, regardless of what others think. Like you said, she instilled that into Glimmer when she began to council her, though that ultimately backfired when Glimmer decided she didn't need Shadowweaver anymore and no longer listened to her council.
@@josephperez2004 I don't think Shadowweaver had a greater good complex. She joined the Horde the moment she could and pushed to potentially sacrifice Adora for the fail-safe instead of herself despite knowing about it beforehand. She's just a selfish abusive parent figure who likes controlling others (as seen with mykah, adora, catra and glimmer), but who has some maternal instinct, which in the end made her sacrifice herself.
@@zukodark I'm not sure if I am just looking at this wrong, but from my perspective Shadow Weaver from season 3-5 was just a pragmatist. She used to be someone who sought more power and knowledge, because she was like Entrapta and had a need to learn more (and I think that was her true motivation in making Mycah help her obtain the spell of power). The failed spell that possessed her clearly drove her to more negative extremes. But after she hit rock bottom when Hordak cast her aside and Catra betrayed her, she basically changed. She escaped to Adora, her beloved protege and was healed. From here on she actually never legitimately does anything truly bad intentionally. She gives advice that she considers sound, even if it is usually cold and detached. She lets herself get convinced to do several things that put her in danger too. She _does_ understand what has to be done to achieve a goal and she _does_ give helpful advice. Her overarching goal by the end seems to be mostly just to free the magic in Etheria, because that's what fundamentally drove her life decisions - magic. She has some affection for Adora and even Catra, she merely doesn't know how to express it. She can teach, but she can't connect. So overall to me Shadow Weaver is just a spurned scholar who lost control of her own schemes and eventually accepted being a tool herself, which made her use others as tools as well.
@@zukodark i believe that noelle revealed shadow weaver did not sacrifice herself out of maternal instinct, but selfishness in a "now you have no choice but to forgive me for abusing you all your life", look at angella's final words and shadow weavers, "take care of each other" vs "you're welcome"
"...the Evil Horde, known in the 2018 reboot _only_ as the Horde but referred to unilaterally as the Evil Horde in the original...One day, [Adora] discovers that the Horde is actually evil!" Rebranding can only take you so far.
What's so _fascinating_ is that Catra's deep down _knows_ how messed up her situation is and how much she screwed up, but she's also so _deeply_ in denial. Like basically the entire show up to Corridors, but especially in s4, Catra's just been clinging to the fact that she's 'fine'. She's in control of the situation and everything is okay. Adora left. Fine, okay. Shadow Weaver left her for Adora. Okay, sure, rolling along. Adora hates her now. Fine, whatever. Scorpia left, and it's _okay. what do you mean, she's *fine*_. I love the genius decision to place her on Horde Prime's ship, because that's the perfect catalyst for her arc in s5. At the finale, DT finally rips away her blinders and forces her to acknowledge, face on, everything she did. How truly she's messed up and hurt everyone. And then immediately after, she's put on Prime's ship right away, where she has nothing to do _but_ to mull over everything DT says. The only thing that could possibly distract herself from her thoughts is talking to Glimmer. The one person the best posed to jab right into her regret and nostalgia and love for Adora, and to pull all her remaining illusions down. Also, Horde Prime's whole shtick is that he's stronger than you. More powerful than you. He makes people feel powerless, and the only way to stay safe is to serve him. His entire ship is designed to make people feel powerless. But Catra? Catra's entire coping mechanism and denial is based on her illusion of Control. The only thing Prime's manipulation tactics are going to do is to make her examine herself and realise: oh. I don't want this. I never really wanted this. I want to leave and I have for a long time. The last conversation with Glimmer in Corridors is the culmination of all these things, and it burns down all of Catra's remaining shreds of denial and forces her to realise. I am going to die. No matter what, I am going to die. But I still care for Adora, and I want Adora to live through this. So if I'm going to die anyway, I'm going to make my death _worth_ something, the way my life never did. Like dude that's such a perfect situation and a perfect culmination of factors this show's so well written.
@@geraintthomas4343 I mean _ehhh?_ It's not that I disagree with you. The show did sort of deconstruct the "redemption = death" trope, through Catra and Shadow Weaver, but "redemption = death" is also not something Catra consciously chose? I don't know, does that make sense?
I also really like how you can interpret Catra as a classic case of borderline personality disorder. I wish I had the sources offhand but from what I've gathered that was entirely on purpose. It explains her behaviors (doesn't excuse it) but also raises awareness and allows for people to find someone to relate to plus she has a good ending which is a light for borderlines. Wish Red had mentioned that but it's seriously a wonder how you can fit such a complex character into a show about magic princesses based on a show from decades ago made solely for merchandise.
I always loved how Catra is aware of things. Even in the very beginning when Adora is like "Woah the horde is evil!!" and Catra's just like "um... yeah? You didn't know?"
im very suprised that bow's "BECAUSE YOUR WRONG!" wasent paralled with scorpia's "you're a bad friend..." i feel like red was going to just before blue said that there wasent a paralel moment for glimer.
Oh also the way Shadow Weaver manipulates Catra and Glimmer is so fascinating. But one of them KNOWS what a good parental figure is. The other doesn't. Catra ONLY ever had "Ozais" in her life, never an "Iroh".
I don't think the way shadow weaver manipulates them is actually all that similar. she doesn't put glimmer in the scapegaot position. she put her in a position similar to adora for being the kid of her first golden child micah. so that in particular is more of an adora -glimmer parallel in how they react to shadow weaver. what does give you a " never had to deal with ozai" parallel is the time on horde prime's ship where catra is familiar with navigating the manipulation and abuse while glimmer isn't and it shows.
Scorpia is Catra's Iroh. All of the similarities are there: A professional soldier in a high-ranking position that's clearly too kind-hearted for her surroundings, finds joy in the simple pleasures of life, supports her Zuko without hesitation even when she clearly has doubts as to her motivation, is treated dismissively by her Zuko, encourages her Zuko to consider what she really wants when they find themselves in a situation in which they could potentially escape the militaristic complex only for her Zuko to dismiss her, shows ambiguity towards the sides of the conflict, all the way down to details like her bulky physique and appreciation for tea. Literally all Scorpia needs is a few decades of gathering wisdom to fully become Iroh.
@@annak2597 Scorpia is a teenager in love who isn't a sage on morality and life, she happily fights for the Horde to impress her crush, and only defects in order to save Entrapta, not for Catra's own good. Iroh gives life advice, guides Zuko to the right path, and never left Zuko even in his darkest hour.
@@keitoimon I meant the way Shadow Weaver manipulated Catra when she was a prisoner: soothing voice, trying to uplift her, touching her face... She used the same tactics with Glimmer.
Red: I don’t actually remember talking about Shera, once I started talking, I would black out as the spirit of the princess of angst possessed my mortal body once again.
My fav scene from this show is when She-Ra stops the portal that is destroying the world. The moment She-Ra and Catra lock eyes and Catra realizes that Adora as full stopped trying to save her. The look of realization on Catra's face that she lost any chances to get her best friend back and starts her deep decline in the next season.
The interesting twist to this is that Catra hasn't actually lost all her chances to get best friend back, but only thinks she has, as she has realized that the method she had pursued to far to get Adora back is a dead end that will never work, but she hasn't yet realized that there are other ways she can try, which she ultimately does in season 5.
After season 3 I said out loud to people, "Catra is beyond redemption and I will be disappointed if they try." And then they did it and _actually pulled it off_ and I'm not sure I've ever been more impressed by a narrative turn.
bro, me too. I said the same thing with Bakugo from MHA/BNHA and also out loud told everyone Horikoshi is a shitty writer for thinking _Bakugo_ could _genuinely be redeemed,_ but hot damn if he hasn't done it. I now verbally revoke my assessment of his skillz™. similarly, I didn't like Catra, like, I did, but I didn't and I didn't think I ever would, but holy shit I love it when writers prove me wrong with how good they are at their jobs. I guess I'm just so used to all the horrible writing nowadays.
Now I've only watched the first couple of seasons, so maybe the execution sells it, but my problem with Catra's "redemption" is that Catra doesn't really have a state to be "redeemed" to. At the start when we see her and Adora together she's kind of a dick and her biggest driving motivator is that Shadow Weaver favoured Adora over her. There's no state of grace for her to reclaim. She was an asshole.
@@AshenVictor yeah redemption is the wrong word, but it is a healing and growth process - she goes from projecting her trauma onto everyone with disastrous consequences, to maturely handling her emotions, over a very long arc.
@@RandoSando. it's more about forgiveness than redemption, she still did terrible things. But she's aware of that and feels guilt, apologises, and is forgiven - the audience isn't forced to forgive her, but even Glimmer does, and it seems the mature position / natural resolution. It doesn't make the harm go away, nothing can, but the characters are able to move past it.
The other great bit about Catra's breakdown is that it happens when the Horde is unequivocally WINNING because of Catra's efforts as co-leader. This is everything she's said she's wanted for the ENTIRE show, but she pissed off her old training mates by putting their lives at risk unnecessarily a episode or two ago, and now she's driven away Scorpia, so all she can do in the face of being shown that what she thought she wanted isn't actually what she wanted or needed, is to destroy and cry over what she's cost herself, and it's so damn well done it almost makes me angry because who the hell said a reboot of an 80s toy cartoon SPINOFF could be this deep, insightful, and wonderfully written?
The writing was kinda crap. There was hints of the good it was trying to be which leads us all to dig up the coal hoping to make diamonds out of it. Otherwise we wouldn't need all this in-between the lines explaining away tractor size character fails and plot holes in order to make it good. Good writing doesn't need post-explanations to explain things that should've been shown in the first place.
@@cyberwolf_1013 Yeah, that's what's called subtext. It's kind of extremely important in storytelling. If you spellout the point of everything you write you're doing a crappy job of writing.
@@cyberwolf_1013 the writing in SPoP for sure had its low points, looking at you season 5, but overall seasons 3 and 4 were pretty well done minus a few nitpicks here and there that don't fully diminish the finished product.
@@quinnsinclair7028 You ever hear of "show, don't tell"? If you have to go back and explain what went where and how this went down. You either did a terrible job of showing off your characters and plot or you're just an attention diva who panders to get clicks and views. Noelle is so kick ass? Then point this out. Does she explain what the Honor of Grayskull is? Why are those the words to activate the sword? How does Adora regain She-Ra in season 5 and why is she different? Who took care of Adora as a baby? Pfft, I don't see Shadow Weaver waking up for those 3am feedings. Why does Adora abandon her team and the only friends/life she's ever known, not even trying to go back to save them? It doesn't come up once. Some captain. Why is Adora so torn up about Angella? They talk maybe once or twice and one of those times the queen is threatening Adora. What's the timeline of the show? There is NO weather in Brightmoon. One time it thunders as effect for Mermista... and then? What's the time it takes to travel to Plumaria? Dryl? Crimson Waste? Why does the Princess of Brightmoon travel without even a blanket to cover up with? Does Noelle bother answering even the simplest of these? No. She doesn't.
I love the aspect of their characters where most of Catra's problems are caused by her logical drive and over-abundance of self-awareness in a dark, oppressive place and most of Glimmer's problems are caused by her emotionally driven nature and complete lack of self-awareness in a loving, well-meaning setting, it's fascinating how well it works in that setting
This is the most succinct description of their characters I've seen. Catra was abused so hard that she was broken, while Glimmer was loved so much that she was smothered, and now they are both emotionally stunted and pushing away the people they love. And it's so fascinating to watch it unfold, and really touching to watch them overcome their issues together. Really great writing.
After seeing so many people write this show off as “abuse fanfiction,” “a complete failure/disaster,” and “an insult to the original,” it’s refreshing to see two people discuss this show and analyze its writing in an intelligent manner. It’s also a testament to the show’s strengths that Blue was able to get a good read on the show and its writing despite not having seen as much of it as Red.
Now a days someone somewhere has a beef with every show and will try and tear the show down and anyone who enjoys said show whether or not either deserve it. It’s why I don’t really bother watching negative reviews/analysis of shows, movies or games, even if it’s for something I don’t enjoy. All the criticisms just seem to blend together now a days and just feels too negative or contrived for me, like some people just constantly want to focus on the bad of a media product whilst completely annoying or downplaying any good it may have. So honestly just ignore those people, if you enjoy a show, movie, or game that others say is bad, ignore them and you do you. You don’t have have to justify your own happiness to others. At least in my opinion. Either way, I too am happy to see Red do such a thoughtful analysis of the show.
@@Cadonkadonk Because of Anti-SJW. They hate everything because of their politic. If Avatar had come out now, I am sure all the Anti-SJW while have shit on it.
@@rhymenoceros3303 I think the best take I saw recently regarding the new She-Ra was that it was "generally enjoyed by people who don't have axes to grind."
Glimmer and Catra have always had really strong parallels from the very beginning. Compare Catra's reaction to Adora leaving the Horde in the first few early episodes to Glimmer's behavior during Princess Prom. These are both characters who are fundamentally terrified of being alone, and react people 'leaving' them by driving them away further.
Not to mentiom they both activated doomsday machines in the name of not letting the other side win, knowing full well that they could end up destroying the planet.
I feel compelled to point out that Glimmer can and has admitted fault in the past plenty of times. She was wrong about Adora and apologized for that. She was wrong to be mad at Bow for having the gall to have other friends, and she apologized. Glimmer is absolutely capable of course correcting, she just needs to be shown that she was wrong. But thats kinda hard when she's the queen and no one can stop her. Not to mention that when she does do the thing she wants to do- i.e. teleport out and kick ass- she *wrecks* the Horde on both occasions. Its easy to see why she things 'this works and everyone else is just holding me back'. Freaking love this show.
Glimmer's behavior about this really connects with me as someone who has BPD. I have such a horrible fear of abandonment that I will apologize and relinquish everything in order to keep someone in my life and happy with me. It's definitely not intentionally manipulative, it's just the way BPD works. And there are similar symptoms in other relationship related disorders, but I would guess that because of Glimmer's upbringing, I wouldn't be surprised if apologizing to Bow isn't because she knows what she did was wrong or truly understands why, she's just willing to not be mad at him for it anymore in an effort to keep him in her life. To convince him to stay.
The meltdown of Adora and Glimmer's friendship in season 4 is my personal prime example on how to do tragic writing and general friendship failures : no contrived coincidences, stupid misunderstandings and OOC behavior. Instead, just the wrong preestablished character traits amplified by the wrong coherent circumstences. It goes badly because it couldn't go well, and it hurts SO MUCH MORE than random diabolus ex machina bullshit.
The breakdown is also well done because it's slow, gradual, and it comes from the insecurities of the characters themselves. Yes, double trouble makes things worse, but it's an open question to me if they only hastened the inevitable
I think Catra does have a pretty good idea what she wants throughout the show, the problem is that she wants two things and thinks it's impossible to have both at the some time. With no clear way of resolving that, she goes down destructive paths to get one or the other. She (1) wants to be with Adora and (2) wants to be acknowledged as Adora's equal. We see in "Promise" that she spent their childhood being hurt and pushed down so Adora could be the better of the two of them. They both trespass into Shadow Weaver's room, but only Catra is punished for it. When they spar, Catra using a pretty basic faint is declared "playing dirty" but Adora getting help from a third party isn't. Adora didn't even ask for Lonnie's help. Adora just... gets help and gets rewarded while Catra's skills are degraded. Catra puts up with it for Adora's sake, but she is clearly burning up with resentment. When Adora leaves the Horde, Catra *almost* follows. The only reason she doesn't is because Shadow Weaver hauls her in front of Hordak. Then Hordak... says Catra is just as capable of filling the Force Captain position as Adora was. Catra, for the first time in her life, is given the chance to be Adora's equal, but only as her rival. For the next three seasons, Catra's motivation is to prove she is better than Adora. She even opens the portal because doing anything else would mean Adora "won" again. And like that sparring match where Lonnie intervened, Adora would have won, not because of Adora's skills, but because other people declared Adora had to win. Season 4 has that self-aware rock bottom moment for Catra because she knew what she wanted. And at this point, she knew she had burned her bridge with Adora over the portal thing, and she also knew that her drive to be Adora's better was a losing battle where winning didn't feel as good as she expected. She just couldn't see a way to turn back. In a weird way though, leading armies that conquer kingdoms does prove that you are an equal, if opposite, of the planet's Chosen One protector, so when faced with the Bigger Scope villain, Catra being willing to make the sacrifice play that she does is enough to gain her entry to Adora's side in a role where people acknowledge that Catra has value separate from her relationship with Adora.
Yeah, I really wish that the show had more time to explore Catra as a separate entity from Adora after she joined the rebellion. She has a nice couple of episodes in the desert away from Adora, Shadoweaver and Horde (aka the abusive household) and that helps immensely with her character growth and her relationship with Scorpia, albeit she believably snaps back to the destructive spiral. Due to the romantic subplot she never really gets the chance to find her value and build new relationships and properly mend her friendship with Entrapta and Scorpia.
@@silverish9081 I've heard that the writers planned 6 seasons to wrap all things up, probably with more episodes of Catra apologising and living with the rest of the crew, but by the beginning of season 5, Netflix said them it will be the last, so they have to rush.
One of the few times I see a She-Ra analysis that acknowledges that Glimmer did less-than-good things and how she was very much so not ready to be queen, without hating on her as a character and saying she's a Bad Person because of how she reacted to her struggles. ❤
I think it took knowing her story on (4th) rewatch with my partner who (now in early season 4 of 1st watch) instantly felt drawn to her that made me sit back and think more about her inner world? My partner couldn’t possibly have a more different personality, if anything he’s more similar to Catra (and he does like and identify with Catra too, but not on the same level as Glimmer) I still don’t know how I feel or think of her, she frustrates me through most of the show. I think her personality being more abrasive and cringe at times is one of the things my partner connects with though (it’s been a few months since we’ve sat down to watch any She-Ra)
Catra, Glimmer are what happens when a character pushes everyone away, but then changes when they realise this. Azula from avatar is what you get if a character doubles down on these bad behaviours
actually Catra kinda doubled down for a while but not really internally... I think if Azula had continued for like 2 seasons she could very well get a spoiler powered redemption arc
@@gabrielandradeferraz386 There were plans to give Azula a redemption arc, with the help of Zuko! Unfortunately, the Avatar movie stymied any hopes of getting another season.
@@SpurgeonGeneral46 I actually shipped Catra and Glimmer for some time BECAUSE I saw this parallel character development and just thought it would be kinda cool for them to be together. But whenever I tried to convince anybody else about this they wouldn't get it because they didn't see the connection btwn them. Since then I still think it would be cool for them to be together but now I am firmly on the side of Catradora.
i love the understatement that catra took adora's defection really personally. like, yeah, i'll say. the whole show is catra taking it personally, lol.
something about catra that i realized was that catra was undeniably emotionally abused as a child. we all know that. but she kind of unknowingly continues that cycle of abuse and when she does realize it she's essentially like "oh shit I fucked up but i don't really know how to make it better so maybe if i just ignore the problem it'll go away" but it clearly doesn't but she still doesn't kow how to deal with that ans by this point both she and glimmer are on prime's ship and she...she basically goes "okay maybe i should actually contribute and help adora and also i might have actually chosen the wrong side but its pretty much too late for me so i might as well do this one good thing before horde prime hands me my ass"
she is 100% caught up in the cycles of abuse that shadow weaver unintentionally taught her. Like in promise she says to adora "what do you want? An apology? Youre not getting one!" and two episodes prior, shadow weaver admitted to abusing catra and then said, "and i wont apologise". Its uncanny how much catra learnt from shadow weaver.
@@bellac6311 I forget the episode name, but Adore does point out that Shadowweaver was more than just their CO. She was basically their mom. Adore and Catra were raised in the Horde since they were knee high and Shadoweaver was the one who took care of them, for lack of a better term. The fact that Adora was Shadowweavers favorite and received special treatment only made it that much worse for Catra, because Shadowweaver ingrained how special Adore was and how Catra didn't deserve the faith and friendship Catra received from Adora. At one level ahe internalized that, but at another she rejected the fact Adora was special or better than her. It's was she was so competitive and never let herself be vulnerable around her.
@@musewolfman No, the show is done, I dont have faith they could take it anywhere satisfying after this. ... but as long as we are doing wishful thinking. What I would want is a reboot with the same story but withouth the writers not so constricted by the suits to make sure children could watch along, a slightly runger run time just like a few episodes per season to flesh some characters out, and a much bigger animation budget to do it over again. Because those things really are the only gripes I have with the show.
It's really interesting because from season 1 both Catra and Glimmer have the same outlook on love and this follows through the entire show. Catra and Glimmer both believe that everyone has a limited amount of love to give this is seen with catra through most things she does, and the first time we see glimmer show this is in season one at princess prom when she reacts to Bow going with someone other than her.
I'm glad to hear Red was also fooled by the season 3 finale into thinking that was Catra's point of no return. Makes me feel a bit better about how I was like "well, now I don't even WANT Catradora to happen" only to cry my eyes out for basically the entirety of Season 5.
Oh yeah. We really needed S4 to deconstruct Catra, break her down to nothing and shove the truth in her face in the form of Double Trouble. It was the only way to make her feelings of guilt believable in S5, and allow the audience to accept her reformation (redemption?). It probably shouldn’t have worked, but it was a master stroke of pacing and writing.
If you ever do She-Ra again, I think Shadow Weaver would be a fantastic subject. Especially drawing the comparison of how when Catra yells at Scorpia, she's mirroring what Shadow Weaver has been doing to her for years word for word.
The difference is that Shadow Weaver does her best to make it seem like fact, make the character believe it and internalise it without realising it, while Catra is just shouting.
I love how some executives were like “let’s hire some writers to make a show based off a He-Man spinoff to make a few bucks” and the writers were like “okay, bet” and made masterpiece of story
It's funny, I started watching this show when Red talked about it during the nemesis trope talk, and then right as I finish the show they make this, a perfect little bookend to my experience with the show.
I think it's interesting to see how the character that was abused and self destructive is the one that could see that what she was doing was wrong and finally come to terms with it rather quickly. She just lacked the support to get out of that hole. Meanwhile, the character that lived a good life with a loving mother is the one that can't admit that what she's doing is wrong and bad and it takes her hitting rock bottom and talking to someone who already hit rock bottom before to realize just how wrong and bad her behavior has been. Catra got the support she needed from Glimmer who held out her hand to Catra as a friend on the ship and Glimmer got the reality check she needed from Catra who opened up about just how much she screwed up and the fact that she accepted that and that she don't know how to handle it.
I feel like it's important to note that, while what Double Trouble did was good in some ways, they blamed Catra for Shadow Weaver's (and in some ways, Hordak's) abuse that they inflicted from a young age. While reminding people of their own issues and the consequences they need to face for their own actions, NEVER blame someone for being abused.
@@mme.veronica735 I have a friend who watched the show and was of a similar mentality. His essential stance was that Double Trouble was just a smaller scale version of Horde Prime (they only care about themselves, if they actually like you they make you a part of them, etc). I have no intention of changing your mind or proving you wrong because evil is a question of morality and that's a tricky slope, to say nothing of the centuries of discussion that is still unresolved. I'm mostly just interested in discussion. I think on the basic level, Double Trouble comes off as charming and thus gets some leeway. They are snarky, smartalecky, and seem to genuinely enjoy people's company even if they have ulterior motives. Horde Prime is much more sterile. Every word out of his mouth is a veiled threat, from showing his hospitality with food and treasures from worlds that he exterminated, to offering to help stop the violence he is 'forced' to inflict on your friends and family if you just help them see reason. Double Trouble, is a had to put a belief system to it, is an anarchist: personal freedom is what they want and they don't care if it inconveniences others. It selfish, but not harmful to others per se. Horde Prime is a nihilist- to him existence outside of the perfect order he imagines is unfit to live and so much be wiped clean. So I can definitely see the concerns. Certainly if Double Trouble had more power, you might see acts of evil similar to Horde Prime, it's hard to say if they had the power to read minds to better understand people that they wouldn't use it. I think the fact that Double Trouble views their art of copying others as a goal in of itself and seems to use it for gain simply because it is their most useful skill might also play a part, where as everything Horde Prime does is simply a means to their final end goal.
@@mme.veronica735 That's really an overstatement and not thematically cogent? They're morally apathetic, but they never permanently damage someone, emotionally, mentally, or physically.
@@lukasnovella9001 a musical queue that introduces a character or idea in any piece of media with music is known as a Lietmotif. It's pronounced light motif because not all of us are good at german.
there are SO many layers between Glimmer and Catra, amazing Narrative Foils. Glimmer has a bubbly exterior with a darker core. Catra has a dark exterior with a soft core. Catra in season 1 manipulates Entrapta into joining the Horde. In season 4 Glimmer manipulates Scorpia into activating the Heart of Etheria! Both use the"we are your real friends" tactic. They both almost destroy the world because of their spiral stemming from the scars the war left them with. And then they both end up learning from each other. Because they're mirrors. Catra is "what if Glimmer grew up abused", basically. Glimmer is "what if Catra grew up in a healthy family" and therefore knows when to stop a suicidal spiral and try to fix her errors.
@@lillianclarke5316 Yeah, and I think Catra also truly believed the princesses had abandoned Entrapta, because she feels that a princess also abandoned her, so it's only natural they did it again.
@@JLacay I mean it's just situational right. Glimmer had that whole heart to heart thing and with Catra and also Catra saved her. Adora always cared about Catra, but realised that unless Catra is willing to seek help, Adora can't help her, so when Catra actually apologises, says that she sacrificed herself for *Adora*, it of course makes sense that Adora would head back for Catra. Bow's always been a kindhearted person and both his best friends want to head back for this person, and he'd of course trust their judgement. With the other princesses, they've already had Entrapta and Scorpia to humanise the Horde to them, and besides, if your three biggest commanders come back with a Horde soldier, one of whom you know has a complicated relationship with said Horde soldier, and they say "yeah long story but I'm absolutely sure that they're with us" and you see the two being really happy together, having fun, deeply caring for each other, and you're currently in a war where said Horde soldier can really help you, it's pretty likely you'll decide to just trust them first and ask questions later. Also it's not as if Perfuma didn't have a problem with Catra at first, and the person who'd have the biggest problem with Catra, Mermista's already chipped, so, for me, it makes sense? Personal opinion of course.
Bro you made me watch the entirety of she-ra in two days… I am emotionally destroyed, probably will never recover, and couldn’t be happier. Thank you for introducing a great show and the complexities within!!
Finished the show a few days ago - also in two days - and I'm not emotionally destroyed, don't need to recover but I also couldn't be happier. She-Ra is almost as good as ATLA and I love it sm
Now all I want is to have a two hour conversation with red to just gush about this show. Red’s level of enthusiasm, that “OHMYGODLETMETELLYOUABOUTIT!!!!!” Honestly, same. Lol!
I absolutely love how the show never made Catra look like a villain. She was the antagonist for most of the show, but the entire time, you're sitting there thinking, "You're better than this! You can break the cycle! They don't have to be right about you!!" And the entire time, you are just watching her self-loathing and self-destructive spiral get worse and worse until it climaxes in season 4. I was watching this show over the course of a couple months, and watched season four over the course of a weak or two, but then, being the dumbass I am, binged all of season 5 in one. day. And HOLY SHIT did that leave me emotionally raw. I never thought a show with naming conventions like "Castaspella the Spellcaster" or "Nettossa the girl with net throwing powers" would leave me sobbing by the finale, but that's a thing that happened. It didn't help that Catra was the character I personally identified with the most because of my own childhood lore, but also the fact that this is the only show I have ever watched, where I shipped basically everyone with everyone. I just wanted everyone to create one giant polycule together. Bow and Glimmer, Glimmer and Adora, Adora and Catra, Catra and Scorpia, Scorpia and Entrapta, Entrapta and Hordack, Everyone. For the ENTIRE show, I wanted all of them to stop fighting and just move into bright moon together and be a sickeningly sweet polycule already!! So season five releasing ALL that tension that it had been building up for 4 seasons, and me deciding to binge said season in one day, yeah. Good shit.
This is a brilliant deconstruction of these arcs, but now knowing that She-Ra is on the table all I can think of is shapeshifter trope talk featuring Double Trouble it will not leave me alone.
I know there's a very slim chance that it will be brought up in that video, but in this slightly-obscure fantasy book series there was a character who could shapeshift, and it actually played a very interesting role in her character beyond just being a magical tool. She was constantly having identity crises because she didn't know what her "true form" was and sometimes completely changed species unconsciously while in the middle of a conversation. In the story, she was raised by this evil hag who cursed her as a baby and killed her parents and all that tropey fairy-tale villain things, and when that hag told her to infiltrate the good guy's military force and impersonate a valuable member of the group because "mummy said so", she ended up slipping into that character's mindset and occasionally forgetting who she was. Eventually, when the heroes found out she was an imposter, she was killed without hesitation. Anyway, the whole thing was very fascinating to me as a kid, and I do think that more shows and pieces of media should turn the concept of shape-shifting into a part of the character's... character.
Ok, um, I was a little scared to say the name, because it's... An animal fantasy book. As in Warrior Cats or Wings of Fire. Not sure how many people respect that genre. Anyway, the series is called The Owls of Ga'Hoole. There was a movie adaptation a while back that some people may have seen, creepy, beautiful, and inacurate. The book she actually features in is I think #11, which is a part of a sort-of prequel trilogy arc thing. It's got a weird writing style that I'm not sure if it's bad to just unique, so I don't know if I'd recommend the series. It's got a pretty cool plot and world though, and interesting social stuff, so maybe?
I can only think of one instance in one show where I actually felt like everything was *hopeless,* even through meta, even through plot armor, and that was the end of She-Ra’s S4. It had to turn out okay eventually, but it felt like such a long shot. It’s a miracle that the ending didn’t feel rushed, actually. As Red would say, it’s fascinating.
The ending there was pretty awesome. The led up to it was amazing too, turning the whole Chosen Hero thing on it's head. In Entrapta's word 'You don't get to chose.' That, along with everything leading up to it: we learned the truth about Mara and the arc with Glimmer's family was a gut punch. And I personally just am a sucker for the trope of AI growing a conscience.
That statement just makes my mind spin. On one hand, it shouldn't make sense, since the term himbo was literally created to describe a male equivalent of a bimbo, which was a sexist term used to describe a "dumb woman." The two terms, lady himbo, shouldn't make sense. It's like calling someone a "misogynistic feminist." They shouldn't work together, they are basically opposites. Yet it makes so much sense. Himbo has become a new term used to describe a "strong, friendly, good natured, wholesome dummy," and the gender has been all but removed from it. Lady himbo shouldn't work, but it works SO WELL. How, how does red reach into the zeitgeist so well? She comes up with a term, lady himbo, that literally makes my brain both hurt, but realize how fundamentally the usage of that term has changed.
this feels like red infodumping while blue pointing out things from an outside perspective in his own little infodumps and....that sounds a lot more obvious than it did in my head but im thinking of it from an adhd perspective and it really just vibes like adhd to adhd communication in a lot of ways and i really like that, its nice to listen to
@@biancapereira5334 which side they're on isn't as important as how they act. Catra is the screw up trying to rise up and gain the approval of her boss/father/parental figure who is simply manipulating them and doesn't actually care about them. Like Zuko. Adora was constantly praised as the perfect soldier/follower/child. Like Azula. Yes the arcs are very different for all 4 characters. But the set up for their mentality and narrative matches up rather well.
Though one key difference is that Adora really cares about Catra (which, if course, Shadow Weaver uses in manipulating them). And Catra does care about Adora, too (though her feelings get much more complicated after Adora defects). Unlike Zuko and Azula, where there's absolutely no love lost on either side of that relationship.
My feeling is that the show is a perfect example of "don't judge a book by it's cover". I actually watched the show because your references to it in Trope Talks convinced me it was worth the time, but boy I didn't expect it to be so intense. I came in thinking "well, it's probably decent but it's still a pastel kids show about princesses", only to find it's way better than so many shows and movies that are aimed at adults. So far the shows you have convinced me to watch are Avatar The Last Airbender and She-Ra. All I can say is thank you.
IT IS SO GOOD! I love how both Adora and Catra’s arc was essentially learning that they deserve to be happy, in different but complementary ways (Catra just straight out doesn’t think she deserves to be happy, Adora thinks happiness is conditional to sacrificing herself and making other people happy- both brought on by Oza- *Shadow Weaver*.) - And then there’s Glimmer, who thinks she is always right and can do no wrong thus she should lash out at her friends, until that bad mindset culminates in doing a really bad thing and she realizes that pushing everyone away was also not making her happy (along with the entire planet/universe) and everyone else deserved an apology. It’s just-so amazing I adore She-Ra and the badass power princesses of power AAAH
What makes me think is if the dolls are speaking or if the OSP duo transformed into a pair of invisible formless spirites and are talking but we can't see them (And I haven't ruled out the possibility that Cleo ate them and are talking from her stomach) Or perhaps they turned into dolls so they can both fit on the chair! We'll never know
I mean, my take for this is simple: they left just the dolls because if Red had to animate the entire conversations with the normal models, even if stock images were used to save time, this would easily take 4-5 times longer to produce per episode, which isn't ideal for a long-form discussion type video.
I’m only seven minutes in but this is such a good analysis of Catra and Glimmer, both being characters I love, in a show I love by a TH-cam channel I love.. I feel like it is my birthday
While yes, the entire premose of He Man was to sell toys, that was why it was greenlit and that governed many of the decisions, they did more with it than that. According to the voice of She-Ra, whose father ran Filmation, the company that produced the show, pretty much everyone there was queer. She was gay and her dad was bi, for example. That also governed a lot of the design and writing. The characters were intended to be gay icons. Also, if you watch the original She-Ra, the feminism hits you like a brick to the head. When I showed it to my kids, I had to explain to them how sexist the 1980s were that this was necessary because ot struck them, at age 6, as a bit heavy handed.
I could listen to red talk about she-ra for hours I do wanna say though Glimmer DOES get a point blank explanation of what she's doing wrong from Bow (you even bring it up) when she looks to him to agree with her and he won't because she's wrong. Then, unlike Catra who can admit to herself she's in the wrong, Glimmer doubles down and confines them both to the castle.
I have repeatedly told people I game with that She-ra is a master class on complex characters and realistically motivated baddies. I gave it a shot in season 1 after hearing a lot of good things on the show's head writer and I am a child of the 80s so I knew He-Man and loved the Horde action figures from back then. Very quickly, I became a fan of the bad girls (Catra, Scorpia, and Entrapta) and kept watching for their dynamic. But holy crap, did the more layers of psychological breakdowns make this such an amazing show to watch. Also, I'd love to hear Red geek out on it more. Maybe if I get enough, I can finally convince a friend of mine to watch as she can't get past the art style changes.
Yeah I’m honestly really upset that the amazing writing of the show got overlooked for dumb politicized discussions about the changes in character designs and the tone problems inherent to any children’s show about war. Like, you going to ignore all the amazing writing because you think the creators are hacks because Entrapta doesn’t look old enough? Bruh 🙃
@@allyli1718 going mildly off topic here but i hate that all succesful modern non anime cartoons are children show. i don't mean succesful as in popularity wise, i mean storywriting wise. All good animated shows that have good writing, She-ra, gravity falls, avatar (well, avatar isn't really but it's still y-7). All of the adult animation focus way too much on the "mature" topic, that the story itself is left kind of flimsy. those kids show only have story to leverage so their story is good. i kind of wish non children cartoon also works the same but they really doesn't or idk, maybe i just haven't looked far enough to find good series
@@Steven9567 Objectively, no the writing of the show even at its worse is competent and it does some pretty clever things with themes and character dynamics that one cannot objectively call it “bad writing”. Does that mean the shows for everyone? No. No series, even if one had perfect writing, will be for everyone. Everyone has their own preferences and what may be a masterpiece to one person may not be that special to another person. Unfortunately, in my opinion at least, it seems today’s society feels the need to either pressure others into having a consensus on a series or having to fight tooth and claw to justify why they may not enjoy something that others do. Too many people try to place their personality and self worth around media and when something they like gets criticized or something they don’t like gets praise, then it leads to resentment that then leads to vitriol and “us against them mentality”. People will throw themselves into these arguments, desperate to prove their point, to prove they are right even if it means attacking and belittling others over the internet and social media. People will literally come to hate and despise one another. And ultimately these arguments, never accomplish anything. They’re pointless rhetoric because neither group will ever let go of their beliefs because both are ingrained in their very being. Internet discourse and arguments are pointless and only breed pain and hatred. That’s why I think people should just allow others to like what they do or do not like. There’s no pointing in attacking or belittling piece of media just to justify your own dislike of it. Just don’t enjoy it and move on. And don’t attack or belittle others for not liking something you love. Everyone has their own tastes, likes and dislikes. If people understood that then I feel like the internet would just be a nicer place. Ultimately though this is just my opinion. So you do you, just don’t be a jerk about it.
Bro you're KIDDING me I JUST finished rewatching this like two days ago I love She-Ra so much. It delivers on promises that a lot of other "kids" shows just don't. Looking at you, Steven Universe.
“We don’t have time to unpack all that.” I think that’s the best description of everyone’s character arcs that I’ve ever heard. Also, if these sort of analysis type things are going to be more common, would you consider doing an analysis of Adrien/Cat Noir and how he handles his familial issues? It’s very interesting
Was that meant to knock on it? I get that sometimes the series' pacing is too fast but I think they focused on them enough to understanding the heavy processing and how it motivates the cast.
Topic suggestion: Redemption vs. Reformation. Because many kids shows “reform” a villain, but don’t go through the steps of “redeeming” them. She Ra is especially fond of this, where someone has done a lot of horrible things, but they switched sides so it’s cool now. I was impressed that even bothered to show everyone giving Catra crap in S5, and not immediately treating her like part of the team.
This show was fairly good at that. When Shadowweaver joined the Alliance, frankly no one trusts her and that carries over to some extent even to the very end. The only reason they don't lock her up completely is because her council is actually useful on occasion (though she often bring a 'the ends justify the means' attitude to the table) and they arent in a position to be picky about allies against the Horde.
I'd argue She-ra was pretty good at showing just because someone switched sides it was not all cool with regards to past actions. Of the characters who switched: + Adora had the advantage of being the legendary She-ra. And does get threatened by Queen Angella in the first few episodes IIRC after she switched. + Entrapta started on the good guys side before she switched to the bad guys side, then got exiled to Beast Island. And even then, there was a lot of mistrust with the other princesses after she came back. + Shadow Weaver is treated with suspicion from the start after her defection. In fact, she only stops being a prisoner when she starts getting her manipulative bitch hooks into Glimmer during Season 5. And no one trusts her right up until she performs her heroic sacrifice in what is pretty much confirmed by the showrunners IIRC as partly her basically trying a Redemption through Death move. Even when dying the bitch can't help being manipulative. + Scorpia is the biggest offender when it comes to defectors being easily forgiven, though with the advantage she hasn't done much than be the muscle and Catra's loyal lieutenant. She still gets put in the jail for a bit before winning over the princesses. But still; it is the lovable cinnamon roll Scorpia. Can you blame them for being so forgiving? + Double Trouble is a mercenary, and while they do cooperate with the heroes a few times, they also fuck off afterwards. They get neither redeemed nor reformed. + Catra is the most interesting. Adora has spent four seasons hoping Catra would come over to the good guys side, been her childhood best friend, and has a major crush on her. Glimmer, who has the most reason to hate her after Catra's actions led to the loss of her mom, has the whole being saved by her and the shared bond of having to live with their actions almost destroying the world. Bow is Bow, so that helps with him. She still gets attacked on sight by Netosa and Frosta. + Wrong Hordak is essentially a child cut off from the abusive cult who raised him and effectively adopted by Entrapta. Bow also seems to feel guilt with the whole frying his mind thing. + Hordak; we never actually see him get anywhere because he only switches in the last episode. Mermista does literally ask if they are okay with regards to him, which implies he still has some way to go to redeem himself in some of the princesses eyes.
I don't people realize that redemption is not an event, it's something you have to commit to every day. When you've spent your whole life hurting people, it takes active effort every day for decades or even your lifetime. Redemption and reformation are the same concepts that have to take place simultaneously because you can't be "redeemed" if you don't change. Especially when the reason why you hurt people is based on PTSD. Trauma completely rewires your brain, and trauma never truly heals. Because of this, the mechanisms that you gain during and after trauma are embedded in you, and not every one of them is able to be dug out. You have to work on it and change your thought patterns and coping mechanisms every day for the rest of your life. And it gets easier over time, but you'll always have a relapse every couple of years. And the same will be true for Catra.
Another Parallel: Shadow Weaver’s manipulation. For Catra it’s outright abuse. For Glimmer, it’s gaslighting -and I’m NOT still salty that SW got away with it with Only Scorpia remembering Oh YEAH SW Abused Catra And Adora (and now Glimmer) shaddup. Totally not salty it’s never truly resolved in the final season At ALL-
I don't see how anybody forgot what SW did. Adora, the one who was actually favored and "loved" by SW, is constantly antagonistic to her at every point in the show, even when she saves her life. And Catra is 10 times more resentful towards her, but in her horribly lonely existence, also clings to SW as a mother figure at points. In season 5 though she constantly distrusts SW, because she sees what she is doing to Adora. Literally nobody except Glimmer trusts SW at all beyond her factual knowledge of magic. Though I don't see how SW abused Glimmer? She gave her advice that she considered sound and Glimmer gladly followed it, because she was too stubborn to listen to anybody else. SW didnt lie or trick her. She gave her options that could lead to success, just not in a way that the heroes would prefer.
This show is amazing, and honestly has a LOT of opportunities to do deep dives and analysis on it. I really hope this bit convinced Blue to give the show a proper watch.
I noticed something like this when we met Bow's parents. A lie he thought would make them hate him is revealed but they love him anyway. Meanwhile, a lie Catra made to Hordak (the closest thing to a father she has) is revealed and he throws her in prison even though she's done so much for him.
Theres a quote in macbeth that goes i cant say word of for word from memory, but it basically means "i know im in the wrong, but ive gone so far now that i dont know how to turn back." And this always feels like it encapsulates Catras story. Like, once shadow weaver was gone, once she was force captain, second in command, pushed all her friends away- all the things she thought she needed to survive, and thought she wanted to thrive- she realises, "shit. why am i here. what am i doing anymore." She realises that she was the only person (besides hordak and shadow weaver) in the wrong, and wrotes her life off as a waste of space, that only caused harm. She gets suicidal in seasons 3 and 4, which we see when she throws herself into fights in the crimson waste (having very little regard for her own life), sets of the portal and doesnt do anything to get out of the portal, and then when she doesnt fight back when glimmer comes to fight her. "What are you waiting for?" The only way out of this mess, at that point, was seemingly death. And catra didnt care. Everything she thought the needed and wanted, was a lie that her former self said just so she would still have some sort of purpose. Also to protect her from shadow weaver, since with adora gone, nothing was stopping shadow weaver offing catra. Theres something amazing i find in how it was once catra and glimmer came together in the face of greater evil, and became acquaintances, they both realised that it was never too late to try and change. Whether the change would be accepted or not, its doable. People say that Adora and Scorpia shouldnt have forgiven catra that quickly, but the thing they arent taking into account, is that scorpia and especially adora know Catra is traumatised, hurting, abused and misdirected. They tried and tried to help her change, but ultimately they both knew that if catra was going to change, she needed to begin that journey herself. They couldnt force her to become a better person, they had to wait until she herself realised she needed to become a better person. Adora and Scorpia were ready with open arms as soon as catra showed interest in changing. They wanted her to change, but they had to wait until catra initiated it herself. omg this comment got longer than i expected. sorry
There’s also the whole Glimmer becoming friends with her abusive ex mother due from manipulation from said abusive ex mother. Edit: Glimmer was manipulated too as pointed out by comments.
Catra's arc is so perfect in the way it builds on everything we know about her, and particularly her relationship with Adora. They were raised to compete with one another, to undercut and betray one another. They were pitted against one another by Shadow Weaver, but they also always looked out for one another. There are two lines that I think really illustrate Catra's relationships. One is from She-ra, the other is from Babylon 5. First, when Glimmer asks Adora "What do you do when you have a cold?" Adora's response is "Remain out of sight! What? Displays of physical weakness are strongly discouraged in the Horde." Second, from Babylon 5 (which, if you haven't watched, _you must watch_ ), one of the main characters is struggling with an addiction, and has walked away from his life, including telling his friends not to come after him. Another character muses "Sometimes people walk away because they want to be alone, and sometimes they walk away because they want to see if you care enough to follow them into hell. I think I went the wrong way." So Catra, who was strongly discouraged from showing weakness, couldn't just admit that she was scared or hurt or just needed her boo to cuddle her and tell her it's okay. Instead, all she could do was insult Adora and run away, and see if Adora would follow her. She tried the same trick with Scorpia and Entrapta; the trouble is that a relationship like that, especially one as intense as Catradora, doesn't really work when you have authority over the person you're trying to have come after you. It kinda worked with Scorpia, until Catra gained the power that she _thought_ was what she wanted. Catra's turn around came when she was trapped, in trouble the she couldn't get herself out of...and Adora walked into hell for her.
I started watching She-Ra because of this video and W.O.W. the show is SO good. I was expecting good things and had my expectations exceeded by just how well it’s written as a whole
I started watching it too after seeing a video of it (though it was frin The Sin Squad) and I am so glad. I can't believe how close I was to never watching it after having a friend talk shit about it, when now it's my favourite show!
"Adora, who everyone adores."
Hey, wait a sec-
Adora the explora
@@dogomage9003 oh goodness
And Glimmer who can glimmer
Bow has bow
@@dogomage9003 *Pulls up conspiracy sheet*
POINTS AT ADORA AND DORA: “They’re connected! The same person! I just know it!”
Red explaining everything and Blue is just trying to figure the plot
& keep Red's enthusiasm on the rails.
The lack of footage makes this feel like I'm being lectured by a pair of dolls rather than being lectured by a pair of dolls _with_ the projector on
TH-cam strikes again m'dude.
I think the lack of footage makes it easier to not realize they are wrong
to me they looked like smurfs
I respectfully request my very own Blue and Red plushies for my couch.
@@Crystalfeathers4 they will have 5 stars for squishiness
“She-Ra and the Princesses of Angst.” Blue, you hit that on the nose too hard, apologize.
we need a video
@@belav4898 were watching that video
Blue: *sad little half-smile*
Red uses the word "fascinating" as many times as Entrapta would
Honestly, I think Entrapta and Hordak was my favorite pairing in that show. When it was clear she wasn't afraid of him (simply because it didn't occur to her to be) we finally got some serious depth in Hordak's own complex and it was strangely moving watching him try to be nice without really knowing how.
@@josephperez2004 same
Oh my god how... FACINATING
@@josephperez2004
*entrapta running around making a robot, enters hordaks lab searching for something*
hordak: who dares enter my sanctum?
hordak: SHOW YOURSELF!
*entrapta looks around the corner* hi hordak! you got a screw driver?
hehe ye
Red saying "Fascinating" in regards to tragic flaws in Glimmer's character gives me Entrapta vibes
Same
Imperfections are beautiful
Me with my problematic faves
Red kinda gives me entrapta vibes in general ngl
Entrapta but with a personalit-
**-gets shot-**
Blue just figuring things out is hilarious
Ayy
Wait your here tooooo
Another interesting contrast between Glimmer and Catra is that Glimmer was a very sheltered child because of the war, whilst Catra was an actively abused child, which plays into the same dynamic
Two characters with very drasticly differnt backgrounds somehow lead to very simmilar character arches. Thats what I call good writting!
Although, similarly the both were kept separated from others by the "mother figure" and had that one friend, Adora and Bow
@@newhelmfun72 Shadow Weaver frequently reminded Catra of how trash she was at keeping up with the others, and also how she only kept her around because Adora liked her. So yeah she was kinda alienated as the underdog because of that
EDIT: or... undercat?
Over-sheltering is a form of abuse, after all.
@@Mysteri0usChannel That is a sentence that I really needed to see spelled out clearly. Thanks! :D
“She-Ra” analysis is so great because it always boils down to “The effects of abandonment anxieties and depression in the character arcs of Princess Snuggly-Wuggly-Kins and Lord Scaryevilbadman”.
"she's a himbo who happens to be a lady"
YES
So a bimbo?
@@Nai-qk4vp Sort of, but himbos are stronger and more masculine. Also they don't have as many variants as bimbos, so for know it also implies a good guy that thinks about others.
A herbo, if you will
Blessed shimbo
@@Nai-qk4vp Not quite. A Himbo has a lot of traditional masculine qualities. Physical strength, the ineffable quality of amiable bro-ness, coupled with not a lot of brains. And nu-Scorpia has all of that.
Breaking: Red Announces King Micah and Scorpia Are Her Favorite Characters, Everyone Goes, "Yeah that checks out"
E
Interesting how they're himbo and she-himbos respectively.
I mean, come on: Scorpia's both the Loveable Bad Guy AND the Team Powerhouse. It was always meant to be.
@@apophis7712 I believe the term is "Herbo"
I personally like entrapta more, but I definetily see why you think they're so cool
"Adora, which could be a whole episode in itself..."
Yes please.
Same
Easily. I already want to rewatch season four because of this video.
Can we blow up this comment?
I would watch an entire series of them just talking about She Ra, without question.
@osp please. do adora. i'm begging
Strange that they didn’t bring up Netossa’s comment about how glimmer’s biggest weakness is crushing self doubt mixed with overwhelming hubris
And Catra's is a spray bottle
why do i feel like someone in the writer's room mentioned that to explain why glimmer did something and then they liked it so much they decided to put it in the show
They only talked up to season 4 finale. When the actually parellels were front and center before redemption arcs time. That was season 5.
She is great
Woah! That's a lot more personal than FIRE!
Catra was told she was bad so many times that she believed it unconditionally.
Glimmer was told that she was good so many times that she believed it unconditionally.
There was no, "You're good if..." or, "You're bad if..." there's just, "You're X, so no matter what happens or what you do, it comes back to you being X. The natural order of things is you being X." And so anything at variance from that became impossible to confront.
"Things are going well? That can't be right -- I'm evil!"
"Things aren't going my way? But I'm *right!* That's no fair!"
different equations, same answer?
That discussion of Glimmer reminded me of a quote:
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
― C. S. Lewis
It's an interesting debate. If there ever was a person / persons who could always be free from bias and always make the best decisions for as many people as possible, would living in a dictatorship under them be considered undesirable? In the real world, this can't happen for a number of reasons, not the least of witch the mortality of this perfectly pure person. But if such a platonic ideal could be reached, would it be worth it?
I mean, then we handed the entire economy over to robber barons and it doesn't actually seem like they can genuinely be satisfied since they keep lobbying for increasingly lax tax codes and environmental regulations, so that they can destroy the planet for short-term profits even faster.
So C S Lewis might have just been full of shit.
@@andrewcapra7153
To be fair, there wasn’t much environmental awareness in CS Lewis’s time.
@@InRealTime769 Actually, it would still be tyranny, no matter how good the dictator was. Strong leadership is important as a facilitator for the process of government, but majority rule is _always_ better than dictatorship or one-party rule. The reasons why are fairly simple:
A) individuals can only ever see the world they already know. It is physically impossible for any individual to be unbiased, because they are ultimately a person, defined by their own personality and background, and they can only have the one they have. Without other perspectives telling them they're wrong, then their society succeeds or fails on their unchallenged and arbitrary assumptions.
B) Government is and always has been a _collaborative_ process. Rulership is a game of regimes and factions, an alliance of independent interests. Even from the earliest days of complex societies it was impossible for individual leaders to handle the whole business of government, and even if they could, no king can enforce their own laws alone. A nation's government is a complex organisation, and that organisation is not of dedicated machines, it's your family, your friends, your neighbours, your bosses, enemies, landlords, tenants, schoolmates, clansmen, tribesmen, and so on.
Unless it isn't. If a government's bureaucracy, police, and military are primarily drawn from a particular caste or castes, such as a narrow selection of ethnic groups, religious sects, or socioeconomic ranks, it will naturally reflect the worldview of those people and not others. That platonic ideal dictator, no matter who they are, must make decisions in accordance with the interests of those who serve them - or, more accurately, who serve themselves by serving the dictator. If that dictator decides to try and take away their land and redistribute it without their consent, for example, they'll dump that dictator like a flaming bag of dog poo and replace them with a more suitable ruler, the kind who makes more reasonable decisions, as far as that ruling caste is concerned. That exact eventuality has happened countless times throughout history to forward-thinking reformist leaders. If the government does not draw its servants from all sections of society, and thus directly involve the people in policymaking anyway, its laws and policies will inevitably be distorted towards the narrow interests of the people who constitute it.
The underlying function of government, the reason why people ever allow others to have power over them, is to better meet their own needs. It is preferable in an agricultural society to have a government than not, because organisation and cooperation lead to better results than chaos. But, if the people cannot advocate for their own needs directly, and demand absolutely and participate in a government of public confidence, those needs simply will not be met, not even in theory. Without involvement in government, there is only repression and neglect.
@@andrewcapra7153 C.S. Lewis was usually full of it. Dude loved himself some autocrats (and no money for guessing who he thinks should get all that power).
What fascinates me about Catra is how she's basically stuck in a vicious circle at that point of the story. Her self-loathing makes her unable to interact with people without her usual artifices, because she can't consider that people could possibly enjoy her company and value her for who she is, independently of what she accomplished. So she hides her need for social interactions behind authority (like demanding a field report instead of asking "how was your day ?"). But that inability of her to sustain a genuine relationship participates (among other things) in driving people away from her, fulfilling this self-realizing prophecy that no one can like/love her for who she is, which in turn feeds her self-loathing.
Yeah, Shadow Weaver really fucked up that kitten.
Which results in me, as Shadow Weaver was sacrificing herself, going "good riddance biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitch" because she did not earn redemption.
@@DarkestElemental616 She died as she lived; emotionally gaslighting Catra and permanently forcing her kids to remember her
Catra is probably the closest I've seen to another show replicating Asuka Soryu from Evangelion.
@@DarkestElemental616 Shadow Weaver's sacrifice is fucking _masterful_ writing because it manages to take one of the most selfless acts possible, giving one's own life for others, and turning into a selfish, manipulative thing.
God I hate her, and I love that the writers were able to inspire that feeling in me.
Oof. That hit close to home.
Off-handedly mentioning that they consulted Red's Dad for info on the original She-Ra series. *sigh* I'm so old.
I'm 19 and it made me feel old- RIP
what if people just never watched or watched he man lol
@@femboyfantasia
It's the fact that an adult asked their parent about a kid's show instead one of their peers. The show is 2 1/2 generations old.
@@eshbena same as. It has nothing in common with the original and should have just been a new ip.
“Adora is a whole video on her own” So I now want to watch that video. Please make that as soon as possible
Five by five takes basicly did that. Their She-ra videos are pretty great.
One aspect that I consider something of a mirror that you didn't touch on: as Catra is driving the one good influence in her life away from her, Glimmer is actively getting closer to what is quite possibly the worst influence in her life: Shadow Weaver.
I was honestly really into learning about Shadowweaver. She's not exactly evil for the sake of evil. In a way she's more like Entrapta: there is a goal she has and she will pursue it through the most effective means available to her. She used to be one of the mages of Mystacor but chafed at what she viewed as cowardice in the face of an enemy, hiding behind magical barriers and doing nothing. She believed they could accomplish more and part of her rational for that was the fact she could recognize talent, like with Mycah (oof, that is a relationship I'd have loved to get more screentime in the last season if it were possible).
I think the main thing with Shadowweaver was she had this 'greater good' complex, that the people capable of creating change had an obligation to do so, regardless of what others think. Like you said, she instilled that into Glimmer when she began to council her, though that ultimately backfired when Glimmer decided she didn't need Shadowweaver anymore and no longer listened to her council.
@@josephperez2004 I don't think Shadowweaver had a greater good complex. She joined the Horde the moment she could and pushed to potentially sacrifice Adora for the fail-safe instead of herself despite knowing about it beforehand. She's just a selfish abusive parent figure who likes controlling others (as seen with mykah, adora, catra and glimmer), but who has some maternal instinct, which in the end made her sacrifice herself.
Ooooh I didn't notice that!
@@zukodark I'm not sure if I am just looking at this wrong, but from my perspective Shadow Weaver from season 3-5 was just a pragmatist. She used to be someone who sought more power and knowledge, because she was like Entrapta and had a need to learn more (and I think that was her true motivation in making Mycah help her obtain the spell of power). The failed spell that possessed her clearly drove her to more negative extremes. But after she hit rock bottom when Hordak cast her aside and Catra betrayed her, she basically changed. She escaped to Adora, her beloved protege and was healed. From here on she actually never legitimately does anything truly bad intentionally. She gives advice that she considers sound, even if it is usually cold and detached. She lets herself get convinced to do several things that put her in danger too.
She _does_ understand what has to be done to achieve a goal and she _does_ give helpful advice. Her overarching goal by the end seems to be mostly just to free the magic in Etheria, because that's what fundamentally drove her life decisions - magic. She has some affection for Adora and even Catra, she merely doesn't know how to express it. She can teach, but she can't connect. So overall to me Shadow Weaver is just a spurned scholar who lost control of her own schemes and eventually accepted being a tool herself, which made her use others as tools as well.
@@zukodark i believe that noelle revealed shadow weaver did not sacrifice herself out of maternal instinct, but selfishness in a "now you have no choice but to forgive me for abusing you all your life", look at angella's final words and shadow weavers, "take care of each other" vs "you're welcome"
Double Trouble’s monologue to Catra was legendary. Brutally murdered her with words at the end of that season.
Double trouble our great destroyer of... well catra
Yet saved her as well.
Catra destroyed with FACTS and LOGIC.
It was kinda corny imo
@@darkyoumemento5307 they consider themself an actor first, mercenary second and spy third, if they can go for the melodrama, they will
"...the Evil Horde, known in the 2018 reboot _only_ as the Horde but referred to unilaterally as the Evil Horde in the original...One day, [Adora] discovers that the Horde is actually evil!"
Rebranding can only take you so far.
I appreciated the exchange early in the show:
"Who calls it the evil Horde?"
"EVERYONE."
Hey now. Good name branding it's how you take over the universe.
In thirty years when people realize that "Friend Amazon" is actually just the same Amazon that trampled on people for decades
Next time they will be the Good Horde and no one will ever find out that they are evil
Someone get the tipex, we need to change that name.
I have arrived to hear Red and Blue geek out
*My body is ready*
I can't wait for them to talk about Avengers EMH.
We all know that's coming, Reboot too
this feels like a threat
Turns out it was only Red, and Blue scrambling to keep up.
Blue: don’t say it
Red:
Blue: don’t you dare say it
Red:
Blue: *don’t-*
Red: ✨fascinating✨
lmao everytime she says that i image her as entrapta dissecting she-ra like entrapta does a robot
Faaascinaaatiiiiiinnng ...
I keep hearing Mr. Spock with the raised eyebrow
What's the timestamp?
Entrapta is love
What's so _fascinating_ is that Catra's deep down _knows_ how messed up her situation is and how much she screwed up, but she's also so _deeply_ in denial. Like basically the entire show up to Corridors, but especially in s4, Catra's just been clinging to the fact that she's 'fine'. She's in control of the situation and everything is okay. Adora left. Fine, okay. Shadow Weaver left her for Adora. Okay, sure, rolling along. Adora hates her now. Fine, whatever. Scorpia left, and it's _okay. what do you mean, she's *fine*_.
I love the genius decision to place her on Horde Prime's ship, because that's the perfect catalyst for her arc in s5. At the finale, DT finally rips away her blinders and forces her to acknowledge, face on, everything she did. How truly she's messed up and hurt everyone. And then immediately after, she's put on Prime's ship right away, where she has nothing to do _but_ to mull over everything DT says. The only thing that could possibly distract herself from her thoughts is talking to Glimmer. The one person the best posed to jab right into her regret and nostalgia and love for Adora, and to pull all her remaining illusions down.
Also, Horde Prime's whole shtick is that he's stronger than you. More powerful than you. He makes people feel powerless, and the only way to stay safe is to serve him. His entire ship is designed to make people feel powerless.
But Catra? Catra's entire coping mechanism and denial is based on her illusion of Control. The only thing Prime's manipulation tactics are going to do is to make her examine herself and realise: oh. I don't want this. I never really wanted this. I want to leave and I have for a long time.
The last conversation with Glimmer in Corridors is the culmination of all these things, and it burns down all of Catra's remaining shreds of denial and forces her to realise. I am going to die. No matter what, I am going to die. But I still care for Adora, and I want Adora to live through this. So if I'm going to die anyway, I'm going to make my death _worth_ something, the way my life never did.
Like dude that's such a perfect situation and a perfect culmination of factors this show's so well written.
I kind of enjoyed how catra tried to "redemption=death" but adora's having none of it...
nice summary
@@geraintthomas4343 I mean _ehhh?_ It's not that I disagree with you. The show did sort of deconstruct the "redemption = death" trope, through Catra and Shadow Weaver, but "redemption = death" is also not something Catra consciously chose? I don't know, does that make sense?
I also really like how you can interpret Catra as a classic case of borderline personality disorder. I wish I had the sources offhand but from what I've gathered that was entirely on purpose. It explains her behaviors (doesn't excuse it) but also raises awareness and allows for people to find someone to relate to plus she has a good ending which is a light for borderlines. Wish Red had mentioned that but it's seriously a wonder how you can fit such a complex character into a show about magic princesses based on a show from decades ago made solely for merchandise.
I always loved how Catra is aware of things. Even in the very beginning when Adora is like "Woah the horde is evil!!" and Catra's just like "um... yeah? You didn't know?"
im very suprised that bow's "BECAUSE YOUR WRONG!" wasent paralled with scorpia's "you're a bad friend..." i feel like red was going to just before blue said that there wasent a paralel moment for glimer.
Oh also the way Shadow Weaver manipulates Catra and Glimmer is so fascinating. But one of them KNOWS what a good parental figure is. The other doesn't.
Catra ONLY ever had "Ozais" in her life, never an "Iroh".
I don't think the way shadow weaver manipulates them is actually all that similar. she doesn't put glimmer in the scapegaot position. she put her in a position similar to adora for being the kid of her first golden child micah. so that in particular is more of an adora -glimmer parallel in how they react to shadow weaver.
what does give you a " never had to deal with ozai" parallel is the time on horde prime's ship where catra is familiar with navigating the manipulation and abuse while glimmer isn't and it shows.
Scorpia is Catra's Iroh. All of the similarities are there: A professional soldier in a high-ranking position that's clearly too kind-hearted for her surroundings, finds joy in the simple pleasures of life, supports her Zuko without hesitation even when she clearly has doubts as to her motivation, is treated dismissively by her Zuko, encourages her Zuko to consider what she really wants when they find themselves in a situation in which they could potentially escape the militaristic complex only for her Zuko to dismiss her, shows ambiguity towards the sides of the conflict, all the way down to details like her bulky physique and appreciation for tea.
Literally all Scorpia needs is a few decades of gathering wisdom to fully become Iroh.
@@annak2597 Scorpia is a teenager in love who isn't a sage on morality and life, she happily fights for the Horde to impress her crush, and only defects in order to save Entrapta, not for Catra's own good. Iroh gives life advice, guides Zuko to the right path, and never left Zuko even in his darkest hour.
@@keitoimon I meant the way Shadow Weaver manipulated Catra when she was a prisoner: soothing voice, trying to uplift her, touching her face... She used the same tactics with Glimmer.
I like that we are at a point where AtlA's characters have become archetypes on which we use to support story analysis
Red: I don’t actually remember talking about Shera, once I started talking, I would black out as the spirit of the princess of angst possessed my mortal body once again.
was that a stellar firma reference?
@@katerinakap8730 ...idk?
I just copied Shaggy's meme
My fav scene from this show is when She-Ra stops the portal that is destroying the world. The moment She-Ra and Catra lock eyes and Catra realizes that Adora as full stopped trying to save her. The look of realization on Catra's face that she lost any chances to get her best friend back and starts her deep decline in the next season.
The interesting twist to this is that Catra hasn't actually lost all her chances to get best friend back, but only thinks she has, as she has realized that the method she had pursued to far to get Adora back is a dead end that will never work, but she hasn't yet realized that there are other ways she can try, which she ultimately does in season 5.
Mine was drunk adora 🥴
@@cristianvillanueva8782 drunk adora? Oh right the writers attempt at "comedy"
I love the scene of Double Trouble laying hard truth on Catra
I think the look was more of a “no more ****ing around anymore” from adora
alternative titles for the video:
"red gushing about SHE-RA for 39 minutes and 15 seconds"
"its a whole thing"
God I wish "she-ra: its a whole thing" was the title of this episode
After season 3 I said out loud to people, "Catra is beyond redemption and I will be disappointed if they try."
And then they did it and _actually pulled it off_ and I'm not sure I've ever been more impressed by a narrative turn.
bro, me too. I said the same thing with Bakugo from MHA/BNHA and also out loud told everyone Horikoshi is a shitty writer for thinking _Bakugo_ could _genuinely be redeemed,_ but hot damn if he hasn't done it. I now verbally revoke my assessment of his skillz™. similarly, I didn't like Catra, like, I did, but I didn't and I didn't think I ever would, but holy shit I love it when writers prove me wrong with how good they are at their jobs. I guess I'm just so used to all the horrible writing nowadays.
I still don't think she's redeemed in my opinion.
Now I've only watched the first couple of seasons, so maybe the execution sells it, but my problem with Catra's "redemption" is that Catra doesn't really have a state to be "redeemed" to. At the start when we see her and Adora together she's kind of a dick and her biggest driving motivator is that Shadow Weaver favoured Adora over her.
There's no state of grace for her to reclaim. She was an asshole.
@@AshenVictor yeah redemption is the wrong word, but it is a healing and growth process - she goes from projecting her trauma onto everyone with disastrous consequences, to maturely handling her emotions, over a very long arc.
@@RandoSando. it's more about forgiveness than redemption, she still did terrible things. But she's aware of that and feels guilt, apologises, and is forgiven - the audience isn't forced to forgive her, but even Glimmer does, and it seems the mature position / natural resolution. It doesn't make the harm go away, nothing can, but the characters are able to move past it.
The other great bit about Catra's breakdown is that it happens when the Horde is unequivocally WINNING because of Catra's efforts as co-leader.
This is everything she's said she's wanted for the ENTIRE show, but she pissed off her old training mates by putting their lives at risk unnecessarily a episode or two ago, and now she's driven away Scorpia, so all she can do in the face of being shown that what she thought she wanted isn't actually what she wanted or needed, is to destroy and cry over what she's cost herself, and it's so damn well done it almost makes me angry because who the hell said a reboot of an 80s toy cartoon SPINOFF could be this deep, insightful, and wonderfully written?
Noelle Stevenson said so, that’s who
The writing was kinda crap. There was hints of the good it was trying to be which leads us all to dig up the coal hoping to make diamonds out of it. Otherwise we wouldn't need all this in-between the lines explaining away tractor size character fails and plot holes in order to make it good.
Good writing doesn't need post-explanations to explain things that should've been shown in the first place.
@@cyberwolf_1013 Yeah, that's what's called subtext. It's kind of extremely important in storytelling. If you spellout the point of everything you write you're doing a crappy job of writing.
@@cyberwolf_1013 the writing in SPoP for sure had its low points, looking at you season 5, but overall seasons 3 and 4 were pretty well done minus a few nitpicks here and there that don't fully diminish the finished product.
@@quinnsinclair7028 You ever hear of "show, don't tell"? If you have to go back and explain what went where and how this went down. You either did a terrible job of showing off your characters and plot or you're just an attention diva who panders to get clicks and views.
Noelle is so kick ass? Then point this out.
Does she explain what the Honor of Grayskull is? Why are those the words to activate the sword? How does Adora regain She-Ra in season 5 and why is she different? Who took care of Adora as a baby? Pfft, I don't see Shadow Weaver waking up for those 3am feedings.
Why does Adora abandon her team and the only friends/life she's ever known, not even trying to go back to save them? It doesn't come up once. Some captain. Why is Adora so torn up about Angella? They talk maybe once or twice and one of those times the queen is threatening Adora.
What's the timeline of the show? There is NO weather in Brightmoon. One time it thunders as effect for Mermista... and then? What's the time it takes to travel to Plumaria? Dryl? Crimson Waste? Why does the Princess of Brightmoon travel without even a blanket to cover up with?
Does Noelle bother answering even the simplest of these? No. She doesn't.
POV: Your favourite teacher's slides isn't working for an online lecture but they're your favourite for a reason
Plot twist: cleo is actually catra in disguise spying on them getting info about the future plot.
Iirc...The series has ended tho... Right? Right?
Wai-
cleo and catra hmm sounds like a obvious joke
@@redninjakat5733 Cleocatra the Cleopatra
@@travispluid3603 cleopatra was a pharoah, and iirc pharaohs can be seen as manifestations of ra,,,,, so cleopatra was a she-ra
I love the aspect of their characters where most of Catra's problems are caused by her logical drive and over-abundance of self-awareness in a dark, oppressive place and most of Glimmer's problems are caused by her emotionally driven nature and complete lack of self-awareness in a loving, well-meaning setting, it's fascinating how well it works in that setting
This is the most succinct description of their characters I've seen. Catra was abused so hard that she was broken, while Glimmer was loved so much that she was smothered, and now they are both emotionally stunted and pushing away the people they love. And it's so fascinating to watch it unfold, and really touching to watch them overcome their issues together. Really great writing.
After seeing so many people write this show off as “abuse fanfiction,” “a complete failure/disaster,” and “an insult to the original,” it’s refreshing to see two people discuss this show and analyze its writing in an intelligent manner. It’s also a testament to the show’s strengths that Blue was able to get a good read on the show and its writing despite not having seen as much of it as Red.
How can it be seen as "an insult to the original" when the original was *literally made just to sell toys* lol
@@Cadonkadonk people will say anything to try and seem like they have a rational argument.
Now a days someone somewhere has a beef with every show and will try and tear the show down and anyone who enjoys said show whether or not either deserve it. It’s why I don’t really bother watching negative reviews/analysis of shows, movies or games, even if it’s for something I don’t enjoy. All the criticisms just seem to blend together now a days and just feels too negative or contrived for me, like some people just constantly want to focus on the bad of a media product whilst completely annoying or downplaying any good it may have. So honestly just ignore those people, if you enjoy a show, movie, or game that others say is bad, ignore them and you do you. You don’t have have to justify your own happiness to others. At least in my opinion. Either way, I too am happy to see Red do such a thoughtful analysis of the show.
@@Cadonkadonk Because of Anti-SJW. They hate everything because of their politic. If Avatar had come out now, I am sure all the Anti-SJW while have shit on it.
@@rhymenoceros3303 I think the best take I saw recently regarding the new She-Ra was that it was "generally enjoyed by people who don't have axes to grind."
Glimmer and Catra have always had really strong parallels from the very beginning. Compare Catra's reaction to Adora leaving the Horde in the first few early episodes to Glimmer's behavior during Princess Prom. These are both characters who are fundamentally terrified of being alone, and react people 'leaving' them by driving them away further.
Not to mentiom they both activated doomsday machines in the name of not letting the other side win, knowing full well that they could end up destroying the planet.
Maybe the real lesson here is that Adora needs to pick better friends :D
@@runelessruneless9024 Or at least be more willing to tie her friends up and stuff them in a closet until they chill the f out.
I feel compelled to point out that Glimmer can and has admitted fault in the past plenty of times. She was wrong about Adora and apologized for that. She was wrong to be mad at Bow for having the gall to have other friends, and she apologized. Glimmer is absolutely capable of course correcting, she just needs to be shown that she was wrong. But thats kinda hard when she's the queen and no one can stop her. Not to mention that when she does do the thing she wants to do- i.e. teleport out and kick ass- she *wrecks* the Horde on both occasions. Its easy to see why she things 'this works and everyone else is just holding me back'.
Freaking love this show.
The scene where Glimmer just decides to go solo the Horde and actually try as hard as she can is fucking amazing
Glimmer's behavior about this really connects with me as someone who has BPD. I have such a horrible fear of abandonment that I will apologize and relinquish everything in order to keep someone in my life and happy with me. It's definitely not intentionally manipulative, it's just the way BPD works. And there are similar symptoms in other relationship related disorders, but I would guess that because of Glimmer's upbringing, I wouldn't be surprised if apologizing to Bow isn't because she knows what she did was wrong or truly understands why, she's just willing to not be mad at him for it anymore in an effort to keep him in her life. To convince him to stay.
@@faithjolley6034 That was something that always really hit with me too. I said it from season 1 that it seemed like Catra and Glimmer both have BPD.
The meltdown of Adora and Glimmer's friendship in season 4 is my personal prime example on how to do tragic writing and general friendship failures : no contrived coincidences, stupid misunderstandings and OOC behavior. Instead, just the wrong preestablished character traits amplified by the wrong coherent circumstences. It goes badly because it couldn't go well, and it hurts SO MUCH MORE than random diabolus ex machina bullshit.
The breakdown is also well done because it's slow, gradual, and it comes from the insecurities of the characters themselves. Yes, double trouble makes things worse, but it's an open question to me if they only hastened the inevitable
I think Catra does have a pretty good idea what she wants throughout the show, the problem is that she wants two things and thinks it's impossible to have both at the some time. With no clear way of resolving that, she goes down destructive paths to get one or the other. She (1) wants to be with Adora and (2) wants to be acknowledged as Adora's equal.
We see in "Promise" that she spent their childhood being hurt and pushed down so Adora could be the better of the two of them. They both trespass into Shadow Weaver's room, but only Catra is punished for it. When they spar, Catra using a pretty basic faint is declared "playing dirty" but Adora getting help from a third party isn't. Adora didn't even ask for Lonnie's help. Adora just... gets help and gets rewarded while Catra's skills are degraded. Catra puts up with it for Adora's sake, but she is clearly burning up with resentment.
When Adora leaves the Horde, Catra *almost* follows. The only reason she doesn't is because Shadow Weaver hauls her in front of Hordak. Then Hordak... says Catra is just as capable of filling the Force Captain position as Adora was. Catra, for the first time in her life, is given the chance to be Adora's equal, but only as her rival. For the next three seasons, Catra's motivation is to prove she is better than Adora. She even opens the portal because doing anything else would mean Adora "won" again. And like that sparring match where Lonnie intervened, Adora would have won, not because of Adora's skills, but because other people declared Adora had to win.
Season 4 has that self-aware rock bottom moment for Catra because she knew what she wanted. And at this point, she knew she had burned her bridge with Adora over the portal thing, and she also knew that her drive to be Adora's better was a losing battle where winning didn't feel as good as she expected. She just couldn't see a way to turn back. In a weird way though, leading armies that conquer kingdoms does prove that you are an equal, if opposite, of the planet's Chosen One protector, so when faced with the Bigger Scope villain, Catra being willing to make the sacrifice play that she does is enough to gain her entry to Adora's side in a role where people acknowledge that Catra has value separate from her relationship with Adora.
Wow. I’ve watched a few video analyses on Catra’s arc, and you just summed all of them up so perfectly. 👏👏
You expressed this so well im impressed!
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Yeah, I really wish that the show had more time to explore Catra as a separate entity from Adora after she joined the rebellion. She has a nice couple of episodes in the desert away from Adora, Shadoweaver and Horde (aka the abusive household) and that helps immensely with her character growth and her relationship with Scorpia, albeit she believably snaps back to the destructive spiral. Due to the romantic subplot she never really gets the chance to find her value and build new relationships and properly mend her friendship with Entrapta and Scorpia.
@@silverish9081 I've heard that the writers planned 6 seasons to wrap all things up, probably with more episodes of Catra apologising and living with the rest of the crew, but by the beginning of season 5, Netflix said them it will be the last, so they have to rush.
One of the few times I see a She-Ra analysis that acknowledges that Glimmer did less-than-good things and how she was very much so not ready to be queen, without hating on her as a character and saying she's a Bad Person because of how she reacted to her struggles. ❤
I think it took knowing her story on (4th) rewatch with my partner who (now in early season 4 of 1st watch) instantly felt drawn to her that made me sit back and think more about her inner world? My partner couldn’t possibly have a more different personality, if anything he’s more similar to Catra (and he does like and identify with Catra too, but not on the same level as Glimmer)
I still don’t know how I feel or think of her, she frustrates me through most of the show. I think her personality being more abrasive and cringe at times is one of the things my partner connects with though (it’s been a few months since we’ve sat down to watch any She-Ra)
Everything about Catra and Glimmer screams insecurity.
Yeah, that's pretty much it.
Yep they're both extremely insecure due to their upbringings
Yeah they're very relatable
as another character on the show said, glimmer's worst weakness is crippling self doubt mixed with overwhelming hubris
Catra, Glimmer are what happens when a character pushes everyone away, but then changes when they realise this.
Azula from avatar is what you get if a character doubles down on these bad behaviours
actually Catra kinda doubled down for a while but not really internally... I think if Azula had continued for like 2 seasons she could very well get a spoiler powered redemption arc
@@gabrielandradeferraz386 There were plans to give Azula a redemption arc, with the help of Zuko! Unfortunately, the Avatar movie stymied any hopes of getting another season.
I thought azula was the female fire sage meeting korra in season 2. I think she mallowed out.
@@Fralexion After that they started making comic, dont know if those still continue?
@@marocat4749
There is nothing that even remotely hints at that.
How kind of you to drop a she-ra themed episode during pride month
I love how She-Ra and Katra were in love and got together by the end. It made so much sense. 💜💜
@@ladyandraia8724 Catradora supremacy
All the heroes are still the ones with diks, but some are hidden.
@@ladyandraia8724 Even more, if either of them had been straight, the whole universe would have ker-ploded.
@@SpurgeonGeneral46 I actually shipped Catra and Glimmer for some time BECAUSE I saw this parallel character development and just thought it would be kinda cool for them to be together. But whenever I tried to convince anybody else about this they wouldn't get it because they didn't see the connection btwn them.
Since then I still think it would be cool for them to be together but now I am firmly on the side of Catradora.
i love the understatement that catra took adora's defection really personally. like, yeah, i'll say. the whole show is catra taking it personally, lol.
something about catra that i realized was that catra was undeniably emotionally abused as a child. we all know that. but she kind of unknowingly continues that cycle of abuse and when she does realize it she's essentially like "oh shit I fucked up but i don't really know how to make it better so maybe if i just ignore the problem it'll go away" but it clearly doesn't but she still doesn't kow how to deal with that ans by this point both she and glimmer are on prime's ship and she...she basically goes "okay maybe i should actually contribute and help adora and also i might have actually chosen the wrong side but its pretty much too late for me so i might as well do this one good thing before horde prime hands me my ass"
she is 100% caught up in the cycles of abuse that shadow weaver unintentionally taught her. Like in promise she says to adora "what do you want? An apology? Youre not getting one!" and two episodes prior, shadow weaver admitted to abusing catra and then said, "and i wont apologise". Its uncanny how much catra learnt from shadow weaver.
@@bellac6311 I forget the episode name, but Adore does point out that Shadowweaver was more than just their CO. She was basically their mom. Adore and Catra were raised in the Horde since they were knee high and Shadoweaver was the one who took care of them, for lack of a better term. The fact that Adora was Shadowweavers favorite and received special treatment only made it that much worse for Catra, because Shadowweaver ingrained how special Adore was and how Catra didn't deserve the faith and friendship Catra received from Adora. At one level ahe internalized that, but at another she rejected the fact Adora was special or better than her. It's was she was so competitive and never let herself be vulnerable around her.
@@josephperez2004 Yeah, its so sad to watch
OSP talking about She-Ra?
My dream come through
For real. I want more of this now.
we shared the same dream :D
It was only a matter of time with Red lol
@@musewolfman No, the show is done, I dont have faith they could take it anywhere satisfying after this.
... but as long as we are doing wishful thinking. What I would want is a reboot with the same story but withouth the writers not so constricted by the suits to make sure children could watch along, a slightly runger run time just like a few episodes per season to flesh some characters out, and a much bigger animation budget to do it over again. Because those things really are the only gripes I have with the show.
Yes! This is the best thing ever. I've been wanting a video like this ever since I finished watching She-Ra for the first time
It's really interesting because from season 1 both Catra and Glimmer have the same outlook on love and this follows through the entire show. Catra and Glimmer both believe that everyone has a limited amount of love to give this is seen with catra through most things she does, and the first time we see glimmer show this is in season one at princess prom when she reacts to Bow going with someone other than her.
I'm glad to hear Red was also fooled by the season 3 finale into thinking that was Catra's point of no return. Makes me feel a bit better about how I was like "well, now I don't even WANT Catradora to happen" only to cry my eyes out for basically the entirety of Season 5.
S5E3. "I'm sorry...for everything"
That is all
Oh yeah. We really needed S4 to deconstruct Catra, break her down to nothing and shove the truth in her face in the form of Double Trouble. It was the only way to make her feelings of guilt believable in S5, and allow the audience to accept her reformation (redemption?). It probably shouldn’t have worked, but it was a master stroke of pacing and writing.
If you ever do She-Ra again, I think Shadow Weaver would be a fantastic subject. Especially drawing the comparison of how when Catra yells at Scorpia, she's mirroring what Shadow Weaver has been doing to her for years word for word.
The difference is that Shadow Weaver does her best to make it seem like fact, make the character believe it and internalise it without realising it, while Catra is just shouting.
I love how some executives were like “let’s hire some writers to make a show based off a He-Man spinoff to make a few bucks” and the writers were like “okay, bet” and made masterpiece of story
Adora: "Catra, Swift Wind wants me bring him some food! What do horses normally eat?"
Catra: "Hay, Adora."
LMFAO I-
😂🤣😅
that is simultaneously the best and worst joke ever
Thank you for existing
10/5 stars. Don't take to much pride it's an overflow error.
It's funny, I started watching this show when Red talked about it during the nemesis trope talk, and then right as I finish the show they make this, a perfect little bookend to my experience with the show.
Same
Hah, weird. Literally finished going through it with some friends this week as well.
Glad to see these two dorks still want to talk about it!
Finished it last night
Same with me!
I found this show through browsing Netflix
Take a shot every time red says “Fascinating”
Take a sip, and you will be annihilated in 5 min.
My liver curses you
The Entrapta challenge
No thank you. I would rather *NOT* die of alcohol poisoning.
Sorry, but I haven’t got self-destructive tendencies like Catra did
I think it's interesting to see how the character that was abused and self destructive is the one that could see that what she was doing was wrong and finally come to terms with it rather quickly. She just lacked the support to get out of that hole. Meanwhile, the character that lived a good life with a loving mother is the one that can't admit that what she's doing is wrong and bad and it takes her hitting rock bottom and talking to someone who already hit rock bottom before to realize just how wrong and bad her behavior has been.
Catra got the support she needed from Glimmer who held out her hand to Catra as a friend on the ship and Glimmer got the reality check she needed from Catra who opened up about just how much she screwed up and the fact that she accepted that and that she don't know how to handle it.
I feel like it's important to note that, while what Double Trouble did was good in some ways, they blamed Catra for Shadow Weaver's (and in some ways, Hordak's) abuse that they inflicted from a young age. While reminding people of their own issues and the consequences they need to face for their own actions, NEVER blame someone for being abused.
Double Trouble is genuinely the most evil person in the show besides Horde Prime. Prove me wrong
@@mme.veronica735 I have a friend who watched the show and was of a similar mentality. His essential stance was that Double Trouble was just a smaller scale version of Horde Prime (they only care about themselves, if they actually like you they make you a part of them, etc).
I have no intention of changing your mind or proving you wrong because evil is a question of morality and that's a tricky slope, to say nothing of the centuries of discussion that is still unresolved. I'm mostly just interested in discussion.
I think on the basic level, Double Trouble comes off as charming and thus gets some leeway. They are snarky, smartalecky, and seem to genuinely enjoy people's company even if they have ulterior motives. Horde Prime is much more sterile. Every word out of his mouth is a veiled threat, from showing his hospitality with food and treasures from worlds that he exterminated, to offering to help stop the violence he is 'forced' to inflict on your friends and family if you just help them see reason. Double Trouble, is a had to put a belief system to it, is an anarchist: personal freedom is what they want and they don't care if it inconveniences others. It selfish, but not harmful to others per se. Horde Prime is a nihilist- to him existence outside of the perfect order he imagines is unfit to live and so much be wiped clean.
So I can definitely see the concerns. Certainly if Double Trouble had more power, you might see acts of evil similar to Horde Prime, it's hard to say if they had the power to read minds to better understand people that they wouldn't use it.
I think the fact that Double Trouble views their art of copying others as a goal in of itself and seems to use it for gain simply because it is their most useful skill might also play a part, where as everything Horde Prime does is simply a means to their final end goal.
Double Trouble had to be that extreme. Catra would NEVER get listenned.
@@mme.veronica735 no
@@mme.veronica735 That's really an overstatement and not thematically cogent? They're morally apathetic, but they never permanently damage someone, emotionally, mentally, or physically.
Please do a whole episode on Adora. Feel free to do an entire series on She Ra. Go through the She Ra tropes to your hearts content.
YESSS! 🙏
I agree.
I would watch all of them. I'm still so hopelessly obsessed with this series.
@@fRkOdCmK It has been so long since season 5 came out but I am still obsessed as well.
I'm in 👍🏼👍🏼
"He's like Palpatine but with a lietmotif" is an excellent pun, considering how Prime is all about "The Light"
That is a fun homophony joke. The liet in lietmotief means "leading."
I think she said “Light Motif” I don’t think it’s a pun. Sorry :(
@@lukasnovella9001 a musical queue that introduces a character or idea in any piece of media with music is known as a Lietmotif. It's pronounced light motif because not all of us are good at german.
@@lukasnovella9001 The subtitles say "light motif," for what that's worth.
Apologies for raining on the parade, but I checked the captions, and she did say Light Motif, not lietmotif.
there are SO many layers between Glimmer and Catra, amazing Narrative Foils.
Glimmer has a bubbly exterior with a darker core. Catra has a dark exterior with a soft core.
Catra in season 1 manipulates Entrapta into joining the Horde. In season 4 Glimmer manipulates Scorpia into activating the Heart of Etheria! Both use the"we are your real friends" tactic.
They both almost destroy the world because of their spiral stemming from the scars the war left them with.
And then they both end up learning from each other. Because they're mirrors. Catra is "what if Glimmer grew up abused", basically. Glimmer is "what if Catra grew up in a healthy family" and therefore knows when to stop a suicidal spiral and try to fix her errors.
@@lillianclarke5316 Yeah, and I think Catra also truly believed the princesses had abandoned Entrapta, because she feels that a princess also abandoned her, so it's only natural they did it again.
Catra is like I HATE YOU AND I WILL DESTROY YOU AND THE ENTIRE WORLD BECAUSE ITS NOT LIKE IM IN LOVE WITH YOU OR ANYTHING.
Catra is truly The Ultimate Tsundere. I thought of Danganronpa when I typed "ultimate."
B-B-B-BAKA!!!
Oddly, the characters are comfortable being around Catra, despite every horrible action she has done in the show :/
@@JLacay yeah that struck me as a bit weird too
@@JLacay I mean it's just situational right. Glimmer had that whole heart to heart thing and with Catra and also Catra saved her. Adora always cared about Catra, but realised that unless Catra is willing to seek help, Adora can't help her, so when Catra actually apologises, says that she sacrificed herself for *Adora*, it of course makes sense that Adora would head back for Catra. Bow's always been a kindhearted person and both his best friends want to head back for this person, and he'd of course trust their judgement.
With the other princesses, they've already had Entrapta and Scorpia to humanise the Horde to them, and besides, if your three biggest commanders come back with a Horde soldier, one of whom you know has a complicated relationship with said Horde soldier, and they say "yeah long story but I'm absolutely sure that they're with us" and you see the two being really happy together, having fun, deeply caring for each other, and you're currently in a war where said Horde soldier can really help you, it's pretty likely you'll decide to just trust them first and ask questions later. Also it's not as if Perfuma didn't have a problem with Catra at first, and the person who'd have the biggest problem with Catra, Mermista's already chipped, so, for me, it makes sense? Personal opinion of course.
Bro you made me watch the entirety of she-ra in two days… I am emotionally destroyed, probably will never recover, and couldn’t be happier. Thank you for introducing a great show and the complexities within!!
I just finished the show. "Emotionally destroyed, probably will never recover, and couldn't be happier"... I feel you😅
Finished the show a few days ago - also in two days - and I'm not emotionally destroyed, don't need to recover but I also couldn't be happier. She-Ra is almost as good as ATLA and I love it sm
Blue only had a Glimmer of hope of not getting addicted to She-Ra after Red Catra-like forcefully demanded him to watch those two episodes.
Don't you mean that he only had a Glimmer of Light Hope?
Nice
Yay She-Ra content!!!
Omg crossover
Hi! Glad to see you here
@@PseudONym-kz3fr now all i need is a Video on Transformers (Prime, or anything else, except Bayverse)
We need a crossover
*Kermit flail*
Now all I want is to have a two hour conversation with red to just gush about this show. Red’s level of enthusiasm, that “OHMYGODLETMETELLYOUABOUTIT!!!!!” Honestly, same. Lol!
I absolutely love how the show never made Catra look like a villain. She was the antagonist for most of the show, but the entire time, you're sitting there thinking, "You're better than this! You can break the cycle! They don't have to be right about you!!" And the entire time, you are just watching her self-loathing and self-destructive spiral get worse and worse until it climaxes in season 4. I was watching this show over the course of a couple months, and watched season four over the course of a weak or two, but then, being the dumbass I am, binged all of season 5 in one. day. And HOLY SHIT did that leave me emotionally raw. I never thought a show with naming conventions like "Castaspella the Spellcaster" or "Nettossa the girl with net throwing powers" would leave me sobbing by the finale, but that's a thing that happened.
It didn't help that Catra was the character I personally identified with the most because of my own childhood lore, but also the fact that this is the only show I have ever watched, where I shipped basically everyone with everyone. I just wanted everyone to create one giant polycule together. Bow and Glimmer, Glimmer and Adora, Adora and Catra, Catra and Scorpia, Scorpia and Entrapta, Entrapta and Hordack, Everyone. For the ENTIRE show, I wanted all of them to stop fighting and just move into bright moon together and be a sickeningly sweet polycule already!!
So season five releasing ALL that tension that it had been building up for 4 seasons, and me deciding to binge said season in one day, yeah. Good shit.
This is a brilliant deconstruction of these arcs, but now knowing that She-Ra is on the table all I can think of is shapeshifter trope talk featuring Double Trouble it will not leave me alone.
I know there's a very slim chance that it will be brought up in that video, but in this slightly-obscure fantasy book series there was a character who could shapeshift, and it actually played a very interesting role in her character beyond just being a magical tool. She was constantly having identity crises because she didn't know what her "true form" was and sometimes completely changed species unconsciously while in the middle of a conversation. In the story, she was raised by this evil hag who cursed her as a baby and killed her parents and all that tropey fairy-tale villain things, and when that hag told her to infiltrate the good guy's military force and impersonate a valuable member of the group because "mummy said so", she ended up slipping into that character's mindset and occasionally forgetting who she was. Eventually, when the heroes found out she was an imposter, she was killed without hesitation.
Anyway, the whole thing was very fascinating to me as a kid, and I do think that more shows and pieces of media should turn the concept of shape-shifting into a part of the character's... character.
@Ivy Inkwell
What book was it?
@@ivyinkwell1754 I'm interested to find out what book this is
Ok, um, I was a little scared to say the name, because it's... An animal fantasy book. As in Warrior Cats or Wings of Fire. Not sure how many people respect that genre.
Anyway, the series is called The Owls of Ga'Hoole. There was a movie adaptation a while back that some people may have seen, creepy, beautiful, and inacurate. The book she actually features in is I think #11, which is a part of a sort-of prequel trilogy arc thing. It's got a weird writing style that I'm not sure if it's bad to just unique, so I don't know if I'd recommend the series. It's got a pretty cool plot and world though, and interesting social stuff, so maybe?
i love double trouble
I can only think of one instance in one show where I actually felt like everything was *hopeless,* even through meta, even through plot armor, and that was the end of She-Ra’s S4. It had to turn out okay eventually, but it felt like such a long shot. It’s a miracle that the ending didn’t feel rushed, actually. As Red would say, it’s fascinating.
The ending there was pretty awesome. The led up to it was amazing too, turning the whole Chosen Hero thing on it's head. In Entrapta's word 'You don't get to chose.' That, along with everything leading up to it: we learned the truth about Mara and the arc with Glimmer's family was a gut punch. And I personally just am a sucker for the trope of AI growing a conscience.
'i think Scorpia is a lady himbo' - is the same conclusion my brother and I came to when we watched the show!
That statement just makes my mind spin. On one hand, it shouldn't make sense, since the term himbo was literally created to describe a male equivalent of a bimbo, which was a sexist term used to describe a "dumb woman."
The two terms, lady himbo, shouldn't make sense. It's like calling someone a "misogynistic feminist." They shouldn't work together, they are basically opposites.
Yet it makes so much sense. Himbo has become a new term used to describe a "strong, friendly, good natured, wholesome dummy," and the gender has been all but removed from it. Lady himbo shouldn't work, but it works SO WELL.
How, how does red reach into the zeitgeist so well? She comes up with a term, lady himbo, that literally makes my brain both hurt, but realize how fundamentally the usage of that term has changed.
@@MatthewSmith-sz1yq linguistics is a bitch innit?
That’s just a bimbo
12:00
Catra - nearly destroyes the world -
also Catra "how could Adora do this?"
Blue: "She-Ra and the Princesses of Angst"
Accurate
I just want like 5 more hours of Red analyzing She-Ra and Blue, having only watched a handful of episodes, piecing together the plot
Red explaining why She-ra is amazing is everything I ever wanted.
this feels like red infodumping while blue pointing out things from an outside perspective in his own little infodumps and....that sounds a lot more obvious than it did in my head but im thinking of it from an adhd perspective and it really just vibes like adhd to adhd communication in a lot of ways and i really like that, its nice to listen to
theyre like that meme of "friend who talks a lot" and "friend who likes to listen"
@@avrilynravenee5143 YES EXACTLY YOU GET IT
Me: watching the entire video like “ok this is cool but I won’t watch it
“If shadow weaver is Ozai, Adora is Azula”
Sign me the fuck up.
She's basically Aang's character and arc, with Azula's backstory and trauma.
Good stuff.
More like Catra is Azula and Adora is Zuko
@@biancapereira5334 not so much really no
@@biancapereira5334 which side they're on isn't as important as how they act.
Catra is the screw up trying to rise up and gain the approval of her boss/father/parental figure who is simply manipulating them and doesn't actually care about them.
Like Zuko.
Adora was constantly praised as the perfect soldier/follower/child.
Like Azula.
Yes the arcs are very different for all 4 characters.
But the set up for their mentality and narrative matches up rather well.
Though one key difference is that Adora really cares about Catra (which, if course, Shadow Weaver uses in manipulating them). And Catra does care about Adora, too (though her feelings get much more complicated after Adora defects). Unlike Zuko and Azula, where there's absolutely no love lost on either side of that relationship.
So um red. In this episode you mentioned a bunch of things that “deserve their own episodes” when can we expect these episodes???
Yes, it's been 10 months, still waiting on the Adora hero complex video!
@@TempestFNG Same!!
Red: *talking about heartbreaking scene after heartbreaking scene*
Also Red: It's fascinating!
OH NO, A 40 MINUTE LONG VIDEO ABOUT MY FAVORITE SHOW BY MY FAVORITE CHANNEL THE DAY BEFORE ONE OF MY FINALS
Good luck.
Good luck
Same bestie. Didn't regret a thing tho. 😂
Good luck with your finals!
Ohhhh noooo!
Red talking about She-Ra passionately for nearly 40 minutes has been the best part of my day. 10/10 would listen to character rant again.
My feeling is that the show is a perfect example of "don't judge a book by it's cover". I actually watched the show because your references to it in Trope Talks convinced me it was worth the time, but boy I didn't expect it to be so intense. I came in thinking "well, it's probably decent but it's still a pastel kids show about princesses", only to find it's way better than so many shows and movies that are aimed at adults.
So far the shows you have convinced me to watch are Avatar The Last Airbender and She-Ra. All I can say is thank you.
"Scorpia is my favorite character"
You my dear, have great taste.
IT IS SO GOOD! I love how both Adora and Catra’s arc was essentially learning that they deserve to be happy, in different but complementary ways (Catra just straight out doesn’t think she deserves to be happy, Adora thinks happiness is conditional to sacrificing herself and making other people happy- both brought on by Oza- *Shadow Weaver*.) - And then there’s Glimmer, who thinks she is always right and can do no wrong thus she should lash out at her friends, until that bad mindset culminates in doing a really bad thing and she realizes that pushing everyone away was also not making her happy (along with the entire planet/universe) and everyone else deserved an apology. It’s just-so amazing I adore She-Ra and the badass power princesses of power AAAH
What makes me think is if the dolls are speaking or if the OSP duo transformed into a pair of invisible formless spirites and are talking but we can't see them
(And I haven't ruled out the possibility that Cleo ate them and are talking from her stomach)
Or perhaps they turned into dolls so they can both fit on the chair!
We'll never know
I mean, my take for this is simple: they left just the dolls because if Red had to animate the entire conversations with the normal models, even if stock images were used to save time, this would easily take 4-5 times longer to produce per episode, which isn't ideal for a long-form discussion type video.
they answered that question in one of the recent podcast episodes.
Danikoshi: Doylist explanation
Rayhatesu: Watsonian explanation
They're sitting behind the projector.
Your all forgetting about the pocket dimension behind the bookcase.
I’m only seven minutes in but this is such a good analysis of Catra and Glimmer, both being characters I love, in a show I love by a TH-cam channel I love.. I feel like it is my birthday
While yes, the entire premose of He Man was to sell toys, that was why it was greenlit and that governed many of the decisions, they did more with it than that. According to the voice of She-Ra, whose father ran Filmation, the company that produced the show, pretty much everyone there was queer. She was gay and her dad was bi, for example. That also governed a lot of the design and writing. The characters were intended to be gay icons. Also, if you watch the original She-Ra, the feminism hits you like a brick to the head. When I showed it to my kids, I had to explain to them how sexist the 1980s were that this was necessary because ot struck them, at age 6, as a bit heavy handed.
Everyone being gay explains so much about the original designs of all the He-man characters.
@@Nazgul100 it really, really does, doesn't it!
He-man! gay? And I said HAAAAAAYYYYYAAAYYYYYYAYYYYYAYYYAYYYY
I could listen to red talk about she-ra for hours
I do wanna say though Glimmer DOES get a point blank explanation of what she's doing wrong from Bow (you even bring it up) when she looks to him to agree with her and he won't because she's wrong. Then, unlike Catra who can admit to herself she's in the wrong, Glimmer doubles down and confines them both to the castle.
i wanted this video to go on for a lot longer than it did 😭
I have repeatedly told people I game with that She-ra is a master class on complex characters and realistically motivated baddies. I gave it a shot in season 1 after hearing a lot of good things on the show's head writer and I am a child of the 80s so I knew He-Man and loved the Horde action figures from back then. Very quickly, I became a fan of the bad girls (Catra, Scorpia, and Entrapta) and kept watching for their dynamic. But holy crap, did the more layers of psychological breakdowns make this such an amazing show to watch. Also, I'd love to hear Red geek out on it more. Maybe if I get enough, I can finally convince a friend of mine to watch as she can't get past the art style changes.
Yeah I’m honestly really upset that the amazing writing of the show got overlooked for dumb politicized discussions about the changes in character designs and the tone problems inherent to any children’s show about war. Like, you going to ignore all the amazing writing because you think the creators are hacks because Entrapta doesn’t look old enough? Bruh 🙃
@@allyli1718 going mildly off topic here but i hate that all succesful modern non anime cartoons are children show. i don't mean succesful as in popularity wise, i mean storywriting wise. All good animated shows that have good writing, She-ra, gravity falls, avatar (well, avatar isn't really but it's still y-7). All of the adult animation focus way too much on the "mature" topic, that the story itself is left kind of flimsy. those kids show only have story to leverage so their story is good. i kind of wish non children cartoon also works the same but they really doesn't
or idk, maybe i just haven't looked far enough to find good series
that cause it is bad writing red geeking out doesn't make it good
@@Steven9567 is it bad writing though
@@Steven9567 Objectively, no the writing of the show even at its worse is competent and it does some pretty clever things with themes and character dynamics that one cannot objectively call it “bad writing”. Does that mean the shows for everyone? No. No series, even if one had perfect writing, will be for everyone. Everyone has their own preferences and what may be a masterpiece to one person may not be that special to another person.
Unfortunately, in my opinion at least, it seems today’s society feels the need to either pressure others into having a consensus on a series or having to fight tooth and claw to justify why they may not enjoy something that others do. Too many people try to place their personality and self worth around media and when something they like gets criticized or something they don’t like gets praise, then it leads to resentment that then leads to vitriol and “us against them mentality”. People will throw themselves into these arguments, desperate to prove their point, to prove they are right even if it means attacking and belittling others over the internet and social media. People will literally come to hate and despise one another. And ultimately these arguments, never accomplish anything. They’re pointless rhetoric because neither group will ever let go of their beliefs because both are ingrained in their very being. Internet discourse and arguments are pointless and only breed pain and hatred. That’s why I think people should just allow others to like what they do or do not like. There’s no pointing in attacking or belittling piece of media just to justify your own dislike of it. Just don’t enjoy it and move on. And don’t attack or belittle others for not liking something you love. Everyone has their own tastes, likes and dislikes. If people understood that then I feel like the internet would just be a nicer place. Ultimately though this is just my opinion. So you do you, just don’t be a jerk about it.
Bro you're KIDDING me I JUST finished rewatching this like two days ago
I love She-Ra so much. It delivers on promises that a lot of other "kids" shows just don't. Looking at you, Steven Universe.
Like what?
“We don’t have time to unpack all that.” I think that’s the best description of everyone’s character arcs that I’ve ever heard. Also, if these sort of analysis type things are going to be more common, would you consider doing an analysis of Adrien/Cat Noir and how he handles his familial issues? It’s very interesting
Was that meant to knock on it? I get that sometimes the series' pacing is too fast but I think they focused on them enough to understanding the heavy processing and how it motivates the cast.
@@sunlitsonata6853 No, I absolutely love the show. I was just making a joke about how the characters tend to react to their own behaviour
@@sunlitsonata6853 to fast, the only thing faster then that shows pacing is literally everything. I watched the first few seasons and nothing happened
@@sunlitsonata6853 to fast, the only thing faster then that shows pacing is literally everything. I watched the first few seasons and nothing happened
Topic suggestion: Redemption vs. Reformation. Because many kids shows “reform” a villain, but don’t go through the steps of “redeeming” them. She Ra is especially fond of this, where someone has done a lot of horrible things, but they switched sides so it’s cool now. I was impressed that even bothered to show everyone giving Catra crap in S5, and not immediately treating her like part of the team.
Yesss
This show was fairly good at that. When Shadowweaver joined the Alliance, frankly no one trusts her and that carries over to some extent even to the very end. The only reason they don't lock her up completely is because her council is actually useful on occasion (though she often bring a 'the ends justify the means' attitude to the table) and they arent in a position to be picky about allies against the Horde.
I'd argue She-ra was pretty good at showing just because someone switched sides it was not all cool with regards to past actions. Of the characters who switched:
+ Adora had the advantage of being the legendary She-ra. And does get threatened by Queen Angella in the first few episodes IIRC after she switched.
+ Entrapta started on the good guys side before she switched to the bad guys side, then got exiled to Beast Island. And even then, there was a lot of mistrust with the other princesses after she came back.
+ Shadow Weaver is treated with suspicion from the start after her defection. In fact, she only stops being a prisoner when she starts getting her manipulative bitch hooks into Glimmer during Season 5. And no one trusts her right up until she performs her heroic sacrifice in what is pretty much confirmed by the showrunners IIRC as partly her basically trying a Redemption through Death move. Even when dying the bitch can't help being manipulative.
+ Scorpia is the biggest offender when it comes to defectors being easily forgiven, though with the advantage she hasn't done much than be the muscle and Catra's loyal lieutenant. She still gets put in the jail for a bit before winning over the princesses. But still; it is the lovable cinnamon roll Scorpia. Can you blame them for being so forgiving?
+ Double Trouble is a mercenary, and while they do cooperate with the heroes a few times, they also fuck off afterwards. They get neither redeemed nor reformed.
+ Catra is the most interesting. Adora has spent four seasons hoping Catra would come over to the good guys side, been her childhood best friend, and has a major crush on her. Glimmer, who has the most reason to hate her after Catra's actions led to the loss of her mom, has the whole being saved by her and the shared bond of having to live with their actions almost destroying the world. Bow is Bow, so that helps with him. She still gets attacked on sight by Netosa and Frosta.
+ Wrong Hordak is essentially a child cut off from the abusive cult who raised him and effectively adopted by Entrapta. Bow also seems to feel guilt with the whole frying his mind thing.
+ Hordak; we never actually see him get anywhere because he only switches in the last episode. Mermista does literally ask if they are okay with regards to him, which implies he still has some way to go to redeem himself in some of the princesses eyes.
I don't people realize that redemption is not an event, it's something you have to commit to every day. When you've spent your whole life hurting people, it takes active effort every day for decades or even your lifetime. Redemption and reformation are the same concepts that have to take place simultaneously because you can't be "redeemed" if you don't change.
Especially when the reason why you hurt people is based on PTSD. Trauma completely rewires your brain, and trauma never truly heals. Because of this, the mechanisms that you gain during and after trauma are embedded in you, and not every one of them is able to be dug out. You have to work on it and change your thought patterns and coping mechanisms every day for the rest of your life. And it gets easier over time, but you'll always have a relapse every couple of years. And the same will be true for Catra.
I feel like Steven Universe is a great example of this phenomena as well
Another Parallel: Shadow Weaver’s manipulation. For Catra it’s outright abuse. For Glimmer, it’s gaslighting
-and I’m NOT still salty that SW got away with it with Only Scorpia remembering Oh YEAH SW Abused Catra And Adora (and now Glimmer) shaddup. Totally not salty it’s never truly resolved in the final season At ALL-
If we ever get a movie, it better be addressed
I don't see how anybody forgot what SW did. Adora, the one who was actually favored and "loved" by SW, is constantly antagonistic to her at every point in the show, even when she saves her life. And Catra is 10 times more resentful towards her, but in her horribly lonely existence, also clings to SW as a mother figure at points. In season 5 though she constantly distrusts SW, because she sees what she is doing to Adora. Literally nobody except Glimmer trusts SW at all beyond her factual knowledge of magic.
Though I don't see how SW abused Glimmer? She gave her advice that she considered sound and Glimmer gladly followed it, because she was too stubborn to listen to anybody else. SW didnt lie or trick her. She gave her options that could lead to success, just not in a way that the heroes would prefer.
This show is amazing, and honestly has a LOT of opportunities to do deep dives and analysis on it. I really hope this bit convinced Blue to give the show a proper watch.
We need someone to make the tiny Red and Blue plushies
People would put red plush in a jar
@Anton Hodge it costs my sanity to not let them free
I'm imagining them using them as puppets.
"Hey know what's bad for your mental health? Doing that" that got me
I noticed something like this when we met Bow's parents. A lie he thought would make them hate him is revealed but they love him anyway. Meanwhile, a lie Catra made to Hordak (the closest thing to a father she has) is revealed and he throws her in prison even though she's done so much for him.
In fairness to Hordak, the two lies are on very different scales lol
Okay but I have very little interest in being fair to Hordak (at that point in the series at least)
Theres a quote in macbeth that goes i cant say word of for word from memory, but it basically means "i know im in the wrong, but ive gone so far now that i dont know how to turn back." And this always feels like it encapsulates Catras story. Like, once shadow weaver was gone, once she was force captain, second in command, pushed all her friends away- all the things she thought she needed to survive, and thought she wanted to thrive- she realises, "shit. why am i here. what am i doing anymore." She realises that she was the only person (besides hordak and shadow weaver) in the wrong, and wrotes her life off as a waste of space, that only caused harm. She gets suicidal in seasons 3 and 4, which we see when she throws herself into fights in the crimson waste (having very little regard for her own life), sets of the portal and doesnt do anything to get out of the portal, and then when she doesnt fight back when glimmer comes to fight her. "What are you waiting for?" The only way out of this mess, at that point, was seemingly death. And catra didnt care. Everything she thought the needed and wanted, was a lie that her former self said just so she would still have some sort of purpose. Also to protect her from shadow weaver, since with adora gone, nothing was stopping shadow weaver offing catra.
Theres something amazing i find in how it was once catra and glimmer came together in the face of greater evil, and became acquaintances, they both realised that it was never too late to try and change. Whether the change would be accepted or not, its doable.
People say that Adora and Scorpia shouldnt have forgiven catra that quickly, but the thing they arent taking into account, is that scorpia and especially adora know Catra is traumatised, hurting, abused and misdirected. They tried and tried to help her change, but ultimately they both knew that if catra was going to change, she needed to begin that journey herself. They couldnt force her to become a better person, they had to wait until she herself realised she needed to become a better person. Adora and Scorpia were ready with open arms as soon as catra showed interest in changing. They wanted her to change, but they had to wait until catra initiated it herself.
omg this comment got longer than i expected. sorry
There’s also the whole Glimmer becoming friends with her abusive ex mother due from manipulation from said abusive ex mother.
Edit: Glimmer was manipulated too as pointed out by comments.
yeah. i guess they didn’t want to mention the whole child abuse thing, but glimmer becoming friends with fucking shadow weaver of all people was rough
*being manipulated by Catra and Adora´s abusive mother
But yeah you´re right
Adora's Voice Actor is one of the players in Exandria Unlimited, Starting June 24 on the Critical Role Twitch Channel!
im so excited for her to join the show
THIS STOKES ME OUT WOOOOOOOO
Thanks for the heads up, I hadn’t heard of that!
WAIT REALLY? That’s epic!
Blue will now binge watch she-ra. Also not gonna talk about Catras emotional support cat that shows her emotions for her.
It was actually such a clever way to keep Catra from backsliding.
I have a stupid grin thinking back to all of my favorite jokes.
"You are...very technologically advanced..."
Catra's arc is so perfect in the way it builds on everything we know about her, and particularly her relationship with Adora. They were raised to compete with one another, to undercut and betray one another. They were pitted against one another by Shadow Weaver, but they also always looked out for one another.
There are two lines that I think really illustrate Catra's relationships. One is from She-ra, the other is from Babylon 5. First, when Glimmer asks Adora "What do you do when you have a cold?" Adora's response is "Remain out of sight! What? Displays of physical weakness are strongly discouraged in the Horde."
Second, from Babylon 5 (which, if you haven't watched, _you must watch_ ), one of the main characters is struggling with an addiction, and has walked away from his life, including telling his friends not to come after him. Another character muses "Sometimes people walk away because they want to be alone, and sometimes they walk away because they want to see if you care enough to follow them into hell. I think I went the wrong way."
So Catra, who was strongly discouraged from showing weakness, couldn't just admit that she was scared or hurt or just needed her boo to cuddle her and tell her it's okay. Instead, all she could do was insult Adora and run away, and see if Adora would follow her.
She tried the same trick with Scorpia and Entrapta; the trouble is that a relationship like that, especially one as intense as Catradora, doesn't really work when you have authority over the person you're trying to have come after you. It kinda worked with Scorpia, until Catra gained the power that she _thought_ was what she wanted.
Catra's turn around came when she was trapped, in trouble the she couldn't get herself out of...and Adora walked into hell for her.
I started watching She-Ra because of this video and W.O.W. the show is SO good. I was expecting good things and had my expectations exceeded by just how well it’s written as a whole
I started watching it too after seeing a video of it (though it was frin The Sin Squad) and I am so glad. I can't believe how close I was to never watching it after having a friend talk shit about it, when now it's my favourite show!