Why audio plugins sound 'flat' & How to fix FLAT ITB mixes || Is it really the tools or is it YOU?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ส.ค. 2024
- Why audio plugins sound 'flat' & How to fix FLAT ITB mixes || Is it really the tools or is it YOU?
My name is Paul Third and this week on mixing wednesday we are talking all about two things
1. Why plugins CAN sound flat, muddy, unclear, nasty and lack depth
2. Why your in the box mixes dont sound as '3D', open, clear and vibey compared to mixing through your analog hardware chain.
We are discussing gain staging plugins, aliasing, oversampling, subtractive eq, preamps, clean harmonics, mix bus processing, adding feel and taking the dullness from your tracks using high/ mid band enhancers before you have even touched a compressor plugin, equalizer, reverb, delay, saturation on the tracks.
This can be a good mixing tutorial for beginner sound engineers and hopefully act as an audio engineer 101 on understanding plugins better.
At the end of the video I also show you how I have shaped the rough mix using the methods and tools discussed to remove that 'digital flatness'
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📖 CHAPTERS
0:00 intro
1:01 why plugins can sound flat
1:53 gain staging plugins to reduce aliasing
3:09 why aliasing plugins on your mixbus is a BAD thing
4:21 why oversampling plugins isn't always the solution
5:34 thinking about the context of your plugin choice
7:59 the big difference between analog vs digital
9:28 why digital mixes sound flat & how you can fix it
16:13 rough mix vs plugins
🖱️CONTACT ME
Email: Paul.Third@dundeeandangus.ac.uk
Instagram: / paulthird_uk - เพลง
Click here to listen to the rough vs my premix (end of the video)
th-cam.com/video/OS1LjfxUHkg/w-d-xo.html
I had a comparison at the end of the video originally but it sounded really odd on phone speakers and the stereo instances of enna from the enna and telge review needed removed.. As you can hear from the linked video 🤓
Also remember to let me know what you use to make your ITB mixes less 'flat' 🤓
Nebula lol 😂😆
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Paul, I heard it too. To me it sounded a bit brash. But it was a subtle brash. And as you are teaching us, a bit of brashness in the right proportion, on the right element, can transform a composition, a mix, a room, a painting into a masterpiece. I appreciate your scrupulous honesty with this comment. It builds even more trust that you are doing this out of love for audio truth - ego aside. Keep up the good work. I am learning a lot from you, not the least of which is coming from your impressions in the blind listening tests.
Appreciate it.. Honestly 🤝🤘
paul did you checked out the Warmy EP1A by kiive audio
One of your best videos! This one needs to be seen by everyone doing mixes no matter if it's in the box or not.
Thanks man 🙌🤓
Paul, I love you and your channel. Thanks for all you do. Your authenticity is absolutely needed on TH-cam. To quote one of my favorite movies, "You are the man. The dude in the chair" - Spud, Trainspotting. You rock, Paul.
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Amazing been waiting for this all my life a man with clarity. Many thanx.
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Extremely valuable information! Suddelny my whole mix makes sense. Thanks for your work!
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Absolutely! My mixes started to sound much more 3D and the separation of instruments was more defined when I learned how to gain stage. Honestly, I did not attribute the better mixes with gain staging; I just thought I got better and my room was better. Everything being equal, the greatest change comes from gain staging. Excellent video because Now I know why this happened and can take it further.
Glad I could help 🤓
You explain theese difficult topics very well. Happy I found youre channel.
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The master of sound signal processing information!🙏🖤
Wow, thanks!
Excellent video... especially the "learn your tools!!" - digital convenience has made us lazy. I'm an old school analogue dude working 95% digital now, yet I still think "signal path" at all times. Every TH-cam "mix breakdown" I watch I see people putting between 4 and 10 plugins on every source... and then again on sub mixes and mixbus!! I approach a mix thinking "every plugin I add will suck 0.1% of life out of my sound" because the phase errors, filtering and other digital artefacts do add up. Expanding on your thoughts "digital recording is a mirror image" I'll add that "too much digital processing fogs up that mirror".
I agree man. At the start I was plugin daft. Massive plugin chains on tracks. Over time I started to look harder for plugins that could do what 2 or 3 would do. That's what I personally like about acustica. With every song I make and release, my plugin chains are becoming smaller and smaller. I'm using way less than I used to and finding better results by puting more work into less tools 🤓
@@PaulThird Which plugins are you using the most for this workflow?
Acustica Amber (avalon suite) on Acoustic guitars, pianos and strings.
Magenta (manley suite) on electric guitars
Camel on bass
Cola on all my drums
Youll find that acustica stuff does most of my heavy lifting. One channel strip. Job done. Honestly Amber is a very underrated plug for acoustic stuff.
Back in the waves days however.. Plugin chains as long as my arm 😅😅
I've kind of started to come full circle. I'll use 6-8 inserts quite often, and even use 4 inserts on busses. It's just that maybe only one of those inserts are doing anything above 3dB gain reduction or EQing. It's not just that I have the CPU now, it's that I'll use compression to change the stereo image, another to sidechain to the snare etc..
If you watch guys like Huart they'll use lots of plugins but only doing small amounts like yourself so one plugin isn't doing lots of heavy lifting. There's no rules at the end of the day. As long as the end result is what the client wants.. Doesn't matter how you get there 🤓
Great video Paul. When I was an assistant I was more of an electronics repairman than a mixing apprentice. I'm sure a lot of folks will try and say that plugins shouldn't need all these evaluations and should "just work", but even in the hardware world (especially with coveted vintage pieces) you'd be flying blind if you didn't run your equipment through some measure of testing.
Totally agree. My dad's an electrician lecturer and I'm now an electrical technician. I was speaking to him about it and he was telling me how testing is the most important and vital thing about any signal path. The way he sees it is.. How do you know its working correctly unless you test it. You should test everything before you use it. The difference for sparks is that if they don't test they can kill somebody or cut off an entire supply but its still a valid point for an audio signal 🤓
my dude! love what u did with your pre mix. not as natural as the way I mix (similar to what you do but more high end roll off) but in terms of what u were talking about I can hear what you are going for to really emphasise. interested to hear how the mix develops when u start comping the tracks n all that jazzzz,, thinking compression and the colour from the eqs u use further down the line and stuff will really bring everything together more,, was going to comment on the highs as it sounded a bit wierd at points but makes sense after reading ur comment and watching the nebula video,, that enhancer stuff is STRONG,, either way love your vids as always ROCK ON MY DUDE!
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Brilliant video Paul! Nice to see a fellow Scot here on YT too (although I’m a wee bit a hybrid model myself, haha).
Very good explanation, examples, humour, and enthusiasm, if I may say so. Subscribed.
Thanks Andri. Yeah there aren't many Scots on youtube. Surprised as I thought there were quite a few but not so much in the audio youtube world 🤓
SO FUNNY that you are mentioning this right now!
I am JUST getting ready to get Komplete because since I entered "audio" 10 months ago, I hated the sounds. I am only recently reaching a point in which I feel that I can "treat" these sounds and instruments.
How you getting on now?
Wow!! Perfectly explained!!
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I love you dude, you are amazing. Keep going. Big support from France ;) .
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Great video and explanation! 😎🍻🤙
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Some good points. Most important is gain staging for sure.
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apparently gain staging doesn't matter any more cuz of FP engines lol laff everytime i read it, aye nae bother, clip all yer channels to hell and pull yer master fader down
@@DaGabbaGangstayes, gives you a great rice crispy sound we are all after.
This is great man!
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Really nice, thanks for showing how important is the gain staging to make plugins work correctly, your mix sounds way better to the raw mix. I use Bitiwig Studio and I use it's stock plugins, molotock compressor and free plugins, recently I bought subscription for SLATE plugins they sound great but sometimes I think Bitwig plugins or free plugins suit better for the mix, free plugins sound great these days.
Thanks man 🤓 I think I've created a really nice foundation to now start working from now and start doing the real creative moves. Feels wierd compressing and eqing tracks so late but glad I've done it this way as it can only enhance it more and I genuinely think I'll need less moves.
Loads of free plugins can actually be better than paid plugins. That's why you test them. Some have to be really good to entice you into their paid stuff. If it sounds, then it's good 🤓
Oh man, Paul! This is why your channel is steadily becoming more popular. You are getting down to the nitty-gritty and backing it up with data - not subjectivity. Thank you! You are providing a real service by demythologizing plugins vs. analog. “It’s you!” LOL. Folks criticizing digital without even understanding their own gain staging basics and the inherent coloration of analog gear! I don’t know anyone else on TH-cam who is attacking this issue with your degree of knowledge, backed up with blind testing and analytical measurement.
I always really appreciate comments like this as I get worried when I put out stuff like this. Appreciate the support 🤓🙌
@@PaulThird I remember an IBM engineer being quoted as saying, “Don’t worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good at all you’ll have to ram the down people’s throats”.How does this pertain? Well, if you challenge people’s paradigms, are they generally *thankful* for it? No. Quite the opposite.You’ll likely be burned at the stake for your efforts. But, the way you are going about laying this out is superb. What one likes or dislikes is subjective as you so often point out, but instrument readouts are not. Either there is signal there or there is not. There is no arguing that. If I might make a suggestion - really a request - could you please do a video explaining Nyquist and sampling rates? It seems that some of your viewers don’t fully understand the aliasing spikes in your spectral analyses.
@@j.stribling2565 your comment reminds me of conversations I have with people about the virus.
The big name satellite media is finally coming around and saying things that I said months ago. But because people don't watch the news every single day and tend to remember the old news it will take awhile for the paradigm shift to happen.
I might make a very quick one up next week just for plugin doctor 🤓
@@PaulThird 👍🏻
Great video, as always mate 👍
Thanks man 🤓🤓
This is great! Now I need to learn how to do gain staging. I'm an amateur who's been learning a lot lately, and it's great!
th-cam.com/video/0-2zTMjPAqk/w-d-xo.html uploaded a gain staging video on Wednesday 🤓
@@PaulThird I commented on that one and you referred me to this video. 😄 I need to rewatch, because I have installed the plugin. Thanks for all the great content!
AGREED !!! ..... great info !!
If you agree my man.. Then I feel a lot better 🙌🤓
That was great Paul thank you. Now I understand at least in part why plugins on the mixbus have always felt like they collapsed the stereo image and smeared something ever so slightly. In every shootout I've heard and in every instance I have tried them. It has driven me nuts and got me to use analogue gear for the mix bus and plugins only for the mix mostly. I am usually careful about gainstaging and understand aliasing but the way you described it all here has made me want to experiment some more. These analogue boxes are expensive, though so far in my experience well worth it for a few choice pieces. My favorite so far is the RND Master Bus Processor. Every time I try and use plugins it sounds so much less alive open and clear than when I just use the MBP.
Should try the Acustica snow. They actually sampled the RND master bus
Excellent and extremely important info. Watch all the Gain Staging is BS videos you want. But THIS INFO is true even if you don't want to believe it!
Learning proper gain staging is seminal to developing your talent and your quality as a mixing and/or mastering engineer.
Keep up the great content. Great job from one Paul to another!
Gain staging should be one of the first things your told when starting out 👊🙌
Surprising how many folks try to suggest that analog emulations "like" being hit like their analog counterparts. They DON'T!
By the way...to answer your question regarding what I do to keep my mixes from being "flat"...
I use reverb, delay and panning to set the sound stage and room size and then I use automation to create movement and any delay throws or other effects automation, etc...
Verb and delay is really when I start to create depth 👌 Balancing how far something sits back or forward is key to how you want a track to feel. I'm gonna try more automation in the future as Greg Scott from kush said the same as yourself. He sees automation as creating drama and I've never played much about with it unless it lifting a chorus or something
@@PaulThird LOVE UBK! He is definitely my go-to Zen Guru!
Extremely informative!
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Master! Thank you!
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Finally, a perfect example on the "why yours" 👍🏽
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Hey Paul Third i rly fall in love with your channel cause very video im learning so much and i sometimes im gettin some flat mixes so i wanted to ask you if you can do a video about correct gainstaging for example at which db iput the loudest part to avoid aliasing
It's honestly really simple. Get MvMeter2. It's free. Find the loudest peak in your track. Loop it. Open up MvMeter2, set it to - 18 and press the trigger tool when the peak hits and it automatically attenuates the gain and shows you how much to decrease or increase your gain to if you don't want to keep it in the chain. You can leave it on and just maintain that same level when working through your chain, or just copy whatever gain its adjusted to the input of your plugin. Then it's just about maintaining that same level. You can continue to use an MvMeter2 before every plugin or just use the vu meters in the plugin (set to output) so you can insure your output is still at 0dbvu
@@PaulThird ty for your fast ressponse gonna try some mixes this weekend with this techniqe and in the end on my mastering chain i use one plugin with a small amount of alliasing to get everything loud
wow! i never really thought about hitting my busses too hard. This is going to be a gamechenger for me.
I really like the glue that the NLS plugin from waves gives. I like the concept of this plugin. I was wondering if there's such a plugin from other manufacturers (UAD, Plugin Alliance,...) I usually find that waves plugins sound a bit 'flat' compared to their more expensive counterparts.
Another plugin that really helps me is the MJUC from Klanghelm. It's a beast on busses. It gives a very nice pumping or 'popping out of the speakers' effect. You do have to be careful with the attack and release though. It's really sensitive.
Keep up the great videos!
cheers from Belgium
The sonimus console stuff is the best I've tried so far. Did you see last week's video on it?
Some waves stuff are really nice. Too bad I can't use them at the moment 😅
Great video, golden info
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Great video. That is one of the reasons why I like Presonus Studio One so much: The MixFX that work on a per track basis emulating a console make a huge difference in giving back that depth and 3rd dimension.
Also U-HE Satin is very good at this. I often combine them and the difference is huge. But like you correctly pointed out: proper gain staging is a must.
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I agree with other comments regarding how useful this video is. I'm going to re-sensitize myself to gain staging. Overall, I really like what small subtractive EQ and tape-plugins can do for a mix. My only problem with using tape on a mixbus or when mastering is that tape can introduce (or perhaps simply make more apparent) high frequency harshness in the cymbals. That is easy enough to address with filter options in the tape plug-in, but you lose a little bit of the desired sound in the process.
yeah ive found i dont like tape on the master or 2bus. I dont like what it does to an overall mix. much prefer it built up on individual sources
Notice how the Waves SSL Bus Comp forces you to lower the gain going in for that typical kiss the needle reduction. That was actually smart of them.
Great video, but I feel as if I've jumped in mid-stream. If this video is part of an ongoing series, where is the first video, so I can start from the beginning? I know you reference a couple videos at the outset, and I will go find those. I also need to learn more about gain staging. Thank you!
this is gold! Although I still feel hardware compressors are the way, the EQ is now even closer if not almost bang on with these changes. Pure gold Paul! You get yet another thumbs up button. the question is... would you take a job with Waves? :P
I rejected their partner program offer so I suppose that tells you my answer 🤣
@@PaulThird Right on! From the people and staying with the people! don't let the man get ya!
Totally loved this, really informative. Do you think you should gain stage say, a drum bus channel before it hits the mix bus?
I'd say so as if your having to gainstage the drum bus plugins anyway then it makes sense to ensure that your final bus plugin output matches the input. It also keeps your fader resolution up as well.
IF you treat it all as analog then in the console domain if you didn't gain stage the drum bus then the vu would show that it's in the red. Being digital we obviously have way more headroom but if your going into more analog then the chains not finished so gain staging still applies. I think of it all as one signal. Just cause the drum bus is on a seperate channel from the mixbus doesn't mean that it's a seperate chain if that makes any sense. Still all linked
Plus as I'm so focused on not being swayed by increased level its important for me that every part of the chain is level matched so I know if I've actually made a difference or Im just wasting cpu
@@PaulThird that's what I intuited but thanks so much for confirming my doubts. Most of us have not had any time or experience on analog consoles so this info is key to getting a pro mix in the digital world. My mixes are going through the roof thanks to guys like you posting this info. 🙏🏼❤️👊🏼
Great video, Paul!
BTW, talking about aliasing, I was very surprised how Elysia Phil's Cascade plugin manage the aliasing. Did You try it?
Not yet but mix analog does have a ton of elysia gear so the plugs will be getting a big comparison so I'll be able to check under the hood. It's just finding the time as it'll be a lengthy video to set up 🤓
thx god you talk waving hands like italians, so I am able to understand every words))) the trick against flatness is gain staging, yes. It makes plugz soundin better but also helps the overall dynamic. Thx for these interesting ideas, make me thinking...let's see the other video...
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Console8 on all channels... that was the breakthrough for me... and often also a AnalogObsession KONSOL if I need 3D and presence.
Paul you've got great content! Very useful. So hold on, is the idea that no analogue emulation should go into the red in the VU? what would you suggest if the plug in has no VU?
I'd say think about using the analog emulations more like hardware and you'll get better results. Going into the red doesn't automatically mean audible aliasing. Depends on the makeup of the Plugin and you'll find that hitting the needle in and out of +3 vu can give you more saturation and a bit more of a pushed sound which some would do in the hardware but it's having a VU mindset. It's when you start pinning the red where you can't even judge how hard your going into the plugin. That's when you can be in aliasing country. Transient preservation is another thing so it's all about understanding the sound you want whether you want a more saturated sound with rounded off transients or a cleaner punchier sound
Important topic 👌
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Gold mine here... Excellent content. Even if we adjust our inputs correctly, there will be still aliasing that builded up cumulatively to our stereo out. Even aliasing is less than our audible threshold in single tracks, there can be aliasing effects on stereo bus, right? If so, how we can emulate a console with minimum aliasing? Saturn with transformator (HQ) option on every track maybe?
I use sonimus Britson
So I use one of my tape machines into state VCC on every track. Vcc into tape on the busses and then VCC first and tape right before my limiter on my master! Tons of saturation along the way as well.
thats the one thing I'll always give them.. they know to market plugins! haha
I also think a valid point is the use or over use of compression. It can attribute to flat mixes in my opinion and experience.
I agree I use a lot of different compressors throughout a mix but not much compression. Im very selective when it comes to compressors as I see them more like tone and colour boxes. They have to really add more to the source or there's not much point compressing to me. I level match all my compression decisions so I know I'm actually enhancing the source in the mix. A lot of times its parallel or just a dB of GR. Only thing I'll give a good bit of compression is bass, vocals and drum rooms. 1-2db max on the mix bus for some glue
@@PaulThird Hi Paul, yes I think the subject of the adverse effect of too much compression would make an excellent video for you 😉. I do a lot of pop, rnb and by nature that genre has always been mixed with tons of compression.. especially vocals. It's the processed sound that's seems to be accepted and expected in that genre, -10db GR on lead vocals is standard practice for me, then multiband and even sometimes limiting. Trouble is when the whole mix then get further limiting to get.it to commercial level the vocals can sound very 1D as opposed to that's 3D sound we all want. In your face and basically FLAT .. I'm definitely.going to try different approaches
Nice tips as always. It seems that your accent is getting stronger. I like it btw. Have a nice day.
I think I'm getting a bit too comfortable on youtube these days haha 😅
@@PaulThird as an American (with Scottish ancestry by the grace of God) I will sometimes briefly struggle with word or two until I can put it in context. Latest example: “suck-it-tree” - until I figured out you meant circuitry. 😀. It’s part of the charm... don’t change a thing!
great video. can you make a video about how to do a gain staging correctly, please?
th-cam.com/video/0-2zTMjPAqk/w-d-xo.html
Part 1
th-cam.com/video/w0DTz1XGDJo/w-d-xo.html
Part 2
Great vid on this. Ever use air
windiws ?
I've been thinking about it for a long time but it's just such a massive rabbit hole haha 😅
Very interesting to see how poor gain staging causes more Aliasing. My biggest tip for getting livelier mixes is to use Multi-Mono plugins instead of Stereo. Let the speakers dance!
Never thought about using multi mono but yeah it makes sense!
hi Curtis! how you do that? interested in your take.
@@jesusquintero7010 In Pro Tools you can select Multi-Mono when choosing an insert, or some plugins can be changed internally to “Dual Mono” or “Unlinked” which is the same as multi mono.
I’m not sure about how to do it in other Daws.
@@curtisburns Thanks Curtis!!
I have calibrated a mixing template in the Brauerizing fashion (busses: ABCD for music tracks and 12345 for vocal tracks). And before I mix the elements I pre-mix them. Meaning I process them most times with Aquas and N4s and bring them to a stage where they are supposedly tracked through a pre of choice, a console of choice, compressor / EQ of choise, tape machine of choice. When I import these pre mixed tracks to my mixing template (which more or less is emulating an SSL9000) they kind of get mixed themselves and I get a really good result in less than an hour, some times in just half of an hour leaving me much time for automation and fine tuning. PA SSL9000 on each channel, AlexB 9KC on the busses and masterbuss.
i wrote the comment before your video was over and then I just heard that you mention pre mixing. i mean i wrote the above comment as if pre mixing wasnt mentioned. good work!
I totally agree. I think I'll require much less moves having pre mixed this way. I'll stick it up against a reference today and see what tweaks I can make before starting compression on the tracks. Also take enna off the high freq stuff as I don't like the phasey stuff it does on other systems. I abused it a bit too much in the plugin review haha 😅
@24k I do a similar thing, using the 9KC to print the SSL line/mic pre’s. Do you place the buss instances first or last?
@@adijames its a long long story. the line/mic pres are printed. done. printed multitracks imported to a new project. default c hannel strip is the bx_SSL9000J, which mixes into an Airwindows Console7Channel. Then many similar tracks go to their assigned busses and in each bus an Airwindows Console7Buss awaits them to blend them with its coding/decoding (saturation/desaturation) technique. Then I have an IR player of a dual mono bus with a certain time donain distortion of choise. (some IRs taken from Waves NLS Nevo dual mono channels and some from AA CreamPRE and other Aquas, used as dual mono), then I have the assigned bus compressor different for each bus (we can discuss on that) then an assigned EQ for that buss to calibrate it to a certain point (we can discuss on that), maybe a subtle saturator like the PA Blackbox MS or the Vertigo but this BEFORE the EQ so the EQ calibrates it again to unity gain or to a certain curve. then i place the AlexB 9KC Group Bus then I place the Airwindows PurestConsole2Channel. Then my many busses meet at the master bus where Airwindows PurestConsole2Buss awaits them with the code/decode (saturate/desaturate) technique (similar to Console7 but a bit different). Then another IR with a 2 track time domain distortion of choise (similar with the IRs on the busses) then the glue buss compressor, either AA SandComp or the TimP L-Bus. I would also consider Slate Digital FG-Grey for this. Then I go to the AlexB 9KC mixbus. After that I might give some air using Kush Clariphonics or the Maag EQs for that. After that my new addition is the Chandler Germanium Limited compressor (more like a coloring box). For this a good choise is the Softube version which sounds great but I dont own, so I use AlexB CLG for that (Hope it goes GE and hope we get an inspiring skin for it). Then finaly I send it to the Slate VTM and then print my mix. Hope any of the above makes sense. I should not be posting my signature chain here (some things left out though). PS: The ALexB CLG replaced Kush Novotron, again as a bus coloring box. I have some thoughts about replacing the coloring section of *Clariphonics/Maag + CLG/Nototron* with the new Kush BLYSS plugin, but its just a thought at this moment.
Great Video! , For me I'm definitely creating the analog world inside my Daw, I'll start with a pre then maybe a compressor followed by a Tape plugin to replicate the sound being recorded. I would consider that premixing and then Line input to console eqs, console compressors and all that good Nebula Stuff lol.
I be interested in see you doing a video about recreating a analog signal flow in the box and which plugins and libraries to use.
Do you mean like building an analog signal flow, printing it, and then trying to recreate it?
@@PaulThird I mean treating the Daw as if was an real analog studio, like pre>eq>compression>console input >tape>console input>console eq and compression>outboard gear> etc...I hope that kinda clears it up
Ah so you mean like the whole shebang. Imitating recording through gear into tape and then puting it through the console and mixing through the console and also gear?
@@PaulThird YESSS! I think that would be a really cool video
This is really interesting- got a mastering engineer friend who always said you should gain stage to -18 with analog plugins but he never elaborated why. Are there any good articles or books on this subject that you know of? Great video - only recently discovered you channel - shall be watching more.
It kind of started for me when I first started looking into analog and it made sense. in the analog domain 0dvu is digitals -18dbfs. digital has way more headroom than analog (an extra 18db before clipping) but obviously if a plugin developer is modelling hardware gear then its optimal settings will most likely be hitting it around the 0dvu mark. some analog gear sounds better being hit a little bit harder so you can experiment but if you think more analog then obviously smacking the bajeebus out of it on the way in is going to create more harmonics and drive the unit into saturation/ distortion which can be cool but the problem is in digital its also creating aliasing due to more higher order harmonics being created.
I cant remember if its the mixing engineers handbook. There is a gain staging part in it but tbh I experiment and test stuff out myself so I can hear it for myself. It can be quite fun :)
-18 dB what - peak, VU? Big difference. VU meters showing 0 dB only equal peak meters @ -18 dBFS with sine waves. Complex audio can have varying crest factors, so that “0 dBVU” may equal a peak level with 10-20 dB higher level. Thus even a sound that hits -18 dB VU may actually be clipping the output when looking at its peak level.
Good video. I love it.
have you planned a video with examples?
In the description of the video ive got all the videos I've done so far documenting what I've spoken about here 🤓
@@PaulThird thank you :)
I really appreciate your content paul, i've just discovered your channel last week and since then i've been watching at least 1 video of yours every day. I would like to make you a question, what you mean by saying that acustica audio plugins don't like to be oversampled? After seeing this video i was corious about that "frequency shifting" thing you've mentioned so i made some tests with my gold4 in plugin doctor. What i discovered is that if you let's say boost at 200hz of 2db while the sample rate is 44100 you'll get a 2db boost at 200hz and when you switch to 88200 you'll get (as you have mentioned) a 2db boost at 400hz BUT if you switch the eq module off and then back on gold4 acts like normal. Since the problem you've mentioned seems to be easy to fix Is there anything else i should know about oversampling on acustica audio? (REALLY RELLY sorry for my english, hope is understandable, i'm italian)
The oversampling issue is something which seems to sorted in some newer plugins and not in others.
In nebula libraries for example if you oversample anything the frequency will multiply due to the sample packs so a 100hz boost will be 200, 1k will be 2k etc etc
The issue is I've found in some cases you oversample and then switch oversampling off the EQ actually half's instead of multiplying in some cases
The issue is due to the sample frequency packs. This means they are almost fixed to the sample rate
But they seem to have managed to find a way round it in some plugins in the most recent updates now so id need to investigate further
When you show the analysis on your tests being 0db v -18db, the 0db is what is showing more aliasing. Is the best practice to lower all your tracks' volume going into the plugins (i.e. is higher input into the plugins what tends to make more aliasing)?
Hey, Paul! Great video! I have a small point about master mus, and I'm curious of your opinion. On master bus, if I use plugins, I still need my master bus to be -18lufs. That's ok. But what about the tracks? I I'm using AA or Nebulas on tracks, I also want them to be somewhere around -22. Not -32, because then the Nebula cannot really use all it's dynamic IR layers. So then I end up with more or less -16. But then I need to put the input down and compensate in the end. A question! What happens to all the lowest information of the track when you go down? It disappears. The plugin doesn't process the information that just has disappeared, and compensation won't help it. Also because of that digital masters can sound flat, i think. Then if you compare that with master, that uses analog equipment it is different the. First of all the lowest information won't "disappear" when you put the volume down. It's not bits. It's electricity. And those devices have a lot of dynamic range, especially the expensive ones. What do you think?
All my analog vs digital shootouts are at -18dbfs and some are near identical and subjectively better so I wouldn't worry all about gainstaging them to like -18 or even -22dbfs. In terms of masterbus I normally find if the whole session is nicely gain staged then the Masterbus plugs won't need that much input taken down.
Even if the track level levels were pretty hot instead of bringing all the tracks down in level so the first masterbus plug is being fed -18 or -22 just stick MvMETER2 before the first masterbus plug and adjust the gain so its recieving the right input and then raise the level back up at the end of the chain to your desired level. Would that not fix the problem so you never have to run any of your plugs at like -32?
Hi Paul, I've been testing the Reaper oversampling feature on some of my mixes and the difference is clearly audible, with oversampling everything sounds more clear and musical...My question is If I have a 44.1 session and I decide to export at 88.2, wouldn't that be like oversampling the plugins? Because you would force them to work at twice the frecuenciy rate in theory reducing aliasing...Is this correct?
Nah. Exporting at a higher sample rate only oversamples the master channel. Not the tracks. So your master plugins would be oversampled but not everything going into it
Why, when you introduce yourself by name, you come out as Paul Turd? :D
Just kidding - love your nerdy approach to this topic. Quite a refreshingly different approach than quite a few other TH-camrs who are always so eager about new plugins and technologies just because they are new.
🤓🤓
Never find a mixbreakdown on your channel. Maybe an idea for a next video, so we can see and hear your workflow and what you’re talking so much about. Thanks
It's a hard one for me as I've got a complex of trying not to come off like a 'listen to me cause I'm awesome' kind of youtuber (you probably know the ones I'm referencing)
This one I felt like I could share as I have good experience of testing plugins and it tied into the session im doing just now as I've documented every part of the process so far on the channel.
I want to share more of my own music and sessions and I've got people asking me for mixing templates and session breakdowns but I'm just very wary of the Internet and as soon as a non-working engineer starts to gather attention from others you start to gain a lot of hate from other engineers. It's happened already and that's just me doing plugin shootouts 😅
Would be great for you to start building some sort of plug-in chart with aliasing at different sample rates as you test everything as it’s hard to remember all the tests across all your videos. Like a cheat sheet
Dunno if I'd have the time but 100% a great idea. Similar to what julien Kraus does
Great video, but I preferred your rough mix. The polished mix had a weird high frequency 'boxiness'. It weirded me out so much I listened to it on 3 different systems. Was it mixed in an exaggerated way to exemplify the point?
It's definitely enna. I purposely kind of abused it to show its effect in yesterday's video and I've kept it on. I'm gonna take it off most of the stereo instances which increased the highs I.e. Backing vocals, horns and maybe overheads. There's a massive phase shift that occurs in it which is really effecting other systems. As soon as I heard it on the laptop and especially phone speakers I knew straight away. Thank god its in the PRE mixing stage haha 🤓 good experience though
Great video! Im just trying to establish the -18db as the set PEAK singal or RMS signal?
I do it peak but you can do it RMS if you like
@@PaulThird No im going peak too, your spot on with what Im hearing my end! Thank you Paul!
Hello Paul. I admire your work and talent and I have a question for you.
Sometimes I'm mixing vocals over pre-mixed instrumental mp3 or wav. How can i gain staging just vocal track before insert plugins and in the end is it important to have -18 dBFS or how is it the technique? Thanks.
use mvmeter2 (its free) put that on before any other plugin. find the loudest part of your track. set the trigger of mvmeter2 to -18 and press the trigger when the loudest peak hits. thats you gain staged. Just about ensuring that same level throughout your chain
@@PaulThird Thank you
So true...About the "flat" mix.. try usin the "Veriety of sound" "Rescue me" plugin, for individual trax not for buses. I don't know if they are still free, smeone told me that he couldn't get them, but don't take my word on it. I have the most of mkIII updates of the standard pack and I am very, very, very happy with at least 4 of their plugins..
Yeah I really do need to start adding in at least one free option in all my shootouts to test how they stack up. Tons of amazing free plugs out there 🤓
@@PaulThird o and there is another one exciter like that you can use on the whole track if you like. The name starts with "Sh" I can't remember, it's also VOS it's red and it was not in the standard package. I found it on their website. I used to use it for some quick audio service on the clean already in the box mixed tracks to give them life and so called "analogue"🙄 sound. I generally don't use those.
I have a great Soundcraft mixer emulator. The audiocard Im using is a MOTU 24 I/O. ( I have 4 of them for 96 ins and outs ) One of the 24 I/O boxes feeds an old Soundcraft 32x8 Spirit Studio auto ( not the plastic one ) and is routed back into the DAW. 8 channels of the mixer I use as inputs for recording audio into the DAW and the other 24 are for adding mixer saturation and just that Brit console flavor to the mix down. They can be had for next to nothing nowadays, and they ( can you believe it ) sound just like a real mixer! I have it leaning against the wall out of the way and I use it in Cubase just like a plugin.
How much are we talking?
@@PaulThird Heres one the same as mine. Youll need a few extra inputs and outputs on your audio card to get the most out of it. You dont have to go the Souncraft route, as theres plenty of other brands going for a great price. I bought this a long time ago brand new when they werent cheap and decided to keep it when I put my Fostex E-16 in the closet and went digital. rcmusicproject.com/index.php?action=browse_messageboard&new_subject=1404799¤t_board=4
@@PaulThird Heres a higher end SC Ghost. reverb.com/item/4543458-soundcraft-ghost-32-channel-mixing-console-top-of-the-line-opportunity
Hey, sorry for asking. I tried to search for it online but I simply couldn't understand correctly. What did you put on top of everything? I have a few of the plugins that you are talking about and I was thinking to try it myself as well. I loved the result. I'll try Satin as "the tape" and I'll buy the console plugin. Thank you and again I am sorry for asking I just couldn't understand the name of that.
Enna and telge from London acoustics is what I added on top of everything this week. I made a seperate video on it today 🤓
th-cam.com/video/yk5Uj3nNH_w/w-d-xo.html
@@PaulThird going to check it out right now.
Just came back with audio from a studio recorded on Neve and a great mic locker.. no comparison to what I do with plug ins but I suppose it can be done..
For whatever reason the neve sound is pretty hard to nail itb, especially the 1073
Love your channel I'm newly subscribed and dude I've been a pro musician for a while and I'm new to Audio engineering and home studio work and I'm a noob lol my mixes suck and everytime I render a project its always different sounding then it was before I mixed my project.. its either muddy and drums get buried in the mix or everything gets cranked up and is too loud just like noise.. I've been using L1 ultramaximizer on the master track lately and it's helped a little..
Is that a good plugin for master tracks?
I would be using the ultramaximizer for reference purposes only to see how the mix would sound limited for mastering purposes. When mixing i would have no limiting at all on the master. Leave the limiting for mastering. Mixing through a limiter will affect your entire mixing decisions.
My advice is get your mix sounding as dynamic as you can without limiting. Mixing and mastering is 2 different things. hope that helps
@@PaulThird thank you so much for taking the time to reply and that totally makes sense man.. I guess my problem is I want everything loud (my inner guitar player mentality is to blame for that lol) I should start try to bring everything down and get a good mix using the least amount of limiting type plug-ins as possible and mix all tracks at much lower volumes instead of trying to crank the volume of each part over one another while throwing a million compressors and limiters all over the place... it's hard for me to grasp turning things down instead of up lol but I'm starting to understand. Thank you for your help man I greatly respect your profession and look forward to learning more about audio engineering as I follow your channel... one last question though Do you like heavy music like metal?
Unfortunately I was brought up as an indie kid haha metals not really my thing
I remember being a novice student and buying the Waves Gold Bundle just to find, that they sound very bad and it was a pain to get good results out of it. After reading the MANUAL I stumbled upon gain staging and what the suggested input level should be. My mixes improved A LOT. Abandoned Waves either way, bc of their update and sales strategy.
As did many of us haha 🤓
As did I.
Lol done countless tracks with Waves, not all are great but plenty are, so funny how much BS goes on about plugins.
Hi Paul, i'm a bit embarrassed to ask but what's the plug in you used last ? It sounded like you were saying "N Entelger" ....never heard of it!? Interested! Oh & I can't seem to find the link to the 2 versions to compare. Many thanks.
Enna and telge from London acoustics. On reflection you have to be very careful with these 2. I stopped using them but you can get a very specific sound from them
Wel you can lo-pass that channel with aliasing plugin, gently-ish with let 's say 18dB per octave at 22k, with a proper EQ placed next in line. Jus make sure you don't compromise the top end on that channel. But you won't have the CPU to do that after every aliasing plugin. Even if you do have CPU, If you over saturate your project with plugins, you will introduce more latency and many potential weak links to your mix with so many EQs. Choose wisely.
Spot on 👌it's funny as Im trying out more plugins than ever before but my track chains are actually becoming smaller by the month. I try and find plugins that can do the whole thing now instead of before when I'd chain multiple plugins on top of eachother. Acustica was massive for me in terms of tools I trust to do heavy lifting. At a push after pre mixing I could easily mix the rest of the record with Acustica magenta. Comps, eq's.. Job done.. But I'm a picky little shit 😂
The obvious answer is “you.” There are grammy-winning, chart topping, platinum songs that have been mixed and/or mastered in the box. The tools are good enough. Period.
(now, there is a conversation to be had about workflow but I am just talking sonically in terms of what comes out of the speakers)
That's what annoys me about the whole 'mixing with plugins' sounds flat thing .. Serban Ghenea has proven that you can mix a source ITB and it not sound flat. Regardless of how it was recorded he still mixes ITB and makes Grammy winning records. If it sounds good at source then it ends up sounding flat ITB after mixing then it's not the tools it's how you've used them
@@PaulThird His stuff is good on consumer level gear, but on high-end capable speaker systems, it sounds flat.
@@PaulThird then again he is using material that was typically recorded with expensive equipment correct? High end tube microphones, preampa with nice transformers. And let's not forget producers with deep pockets still use compression and equalization on the way in...
Dunno, a lot of the times I'd imagine but not always. Depends on the producer really. A lot of modern music is produced using vst instruments and such these days.
Just look at Billie Eilish. Produced itb inexpensively and even mixed itb by the engineer. He mixed it on an apollo haha
The truth is even if it wasn't recorded expensively, Serban and his team would still mix it in the box and it'd still be a hit
@@PaulThird very true. We can't deny his talents as a mixer and we can't deny the marketing machine that is the mainstream music industry.
Curious as to whether you’d use the ddf meta plugin on all your plugins?
No point. Internal oversampling is purely to reduce aliasing. If a plugin doesn't need it then you are just costing yourself cpu. I hardly use metaplugin for oversampling as I pick plugins that are either internally oversampled, offer OS in the plugin or have very good anti aliasing filters.
If I didnt have such an array of plugins and went back 5 years when I was using mostly waves then 100% would have metaplugin on every instance as I work at 48khz.
In modern day plugins it shouldn't be needed.
The only other time you'll see me using metaplugin is to create plugin Chains so I dont have so many instances and can easily bypass the chain to see if its actually benefiting the source
I still don’t quite get it - so, if you plan on having plugins on your mixbus (say, EQs, saturation, compression, and the final limiter), all of those plugins should ideally see an input level of -18db?
I can see how that concept applies to individual tracks, but on the mixbus? Doesn’t that mean we’re going to have our final limiter do a crap ton of heavy lifting to get the signal from -18 to 0, and probably even more to reach the appropriate LUFS value?
Would really appreciate your insight on this Paul.
If your using an analog emulation on your mixbus then gain staging is even more important as you are affecting your entire mix. You really don't want to add aliasing over an entire mix.
So in a situation where your going into your final limiter then the output of the Plugin going into your limiter can be whatever you like.
Being honest though. For a mix I aim for about -6bdfs. If I gain stage in my session and its possibly a bit light level wise on the master then I just raise the output of my last plugin.
That way when I go to master a track or send it to a mastering engineer it has enough headroom.
Remember that gain staging is only really applicable for plugins that saturate and make harmonics (nearly all analog emulations).
Its mainly to insure aliasing is kept to a minimum and that your mix has ample headroom. Input is to insure that your your not overloading the plugin and your output is to control the level your outputting. Stick with that you can't go wrong 🤓
teach us how to gain stagging and carefull with aliasing...hearing good n bad
I love console shaper in Studio one!
Been hearing a lot about that!
@@PaulThird it adds fade based saturation to the actual mixing board and crosstalk between all of your DAW faders that you can sweeten to how you like and console noise all to taste. It’s amazing.
oh my god i cannae take it, first you came for the spl iron, now VSM3, two plugins I love strappin across my mixbuss! hahaha Stop tormentin me!
sounds good, is good!
Dirks right man. If it sounds good then it's good. I'm just pedantic as I shoot everything out. If you shoot a few plugs out and in comparison something else sounds better then you can choose to go for that but if you still prefer the sound of what you had before then stick with it. I would personally still say gain stage it just as aliasing isn't my cup of tea but it's just how I see things. Just cause I can hear the differences in aliasing doesn't mean to say that it's something that bothers you or is enough to replace the plugin.
When I think about buying stuff now I test in plugin doctor but just to see what's going in it. I won't discredit something until I've played about with it in the mix and compared it level matched.
Out of interest.. Did you prefer the iron in the vari mu test?
I love how u broke down the stages. However, did u miss a point? Automation. Recently I’ve noticed how top mastering and mix engineers will
Ride the faders on a mix and I believe this is what give a mix that extra %. I never knew Mastering engineers do it (just learning) but I agree with all the other stuff you mentioned. Cross talk/saturation/etc. really enjoyed your videos.
I never even thought of that as I seen that as more a fader thing as opposed to plugins but true you can automate the plugins themselves so yes! Automation is a great point 🤓
Need to back this up -- using fader AND plugin automation is the key difference in that final 5% of what "makes a mix." Sure there are moments where a simple fader automation makes a clear, audible difference (you fade out a delay throw's volume, for example), but why not slowly automate the gain of a preamp/saturator so that certain words/sections of a vocal are more gritty than others? But of course with that those sections will be louder, so you'll need to either ride an output fader or track volume to compensate -- maybe even an EQ for harshness, etc. -- to get it even. Sounds like a ton of work but if you take each idea as its own individual step, you can bang out a full song in less than 24hrs with professional results.
Paul's video is excellent here to make the right choices and ensure that you're getting the most out of your gear. Automating that gear to enhance creative and listening experience is the last 5% of a mix to me. Automation is always last. Always.
If you print all your stems and sum them your still going to hear more width and depth ... Steve Wilson of Porcupine Tree fame has though created some digital mixes that are great. The mastering might have been in analog so .. who knows
You'll nornally find some form of analog in big records whether it's the converters or mastering chain as you said. There's always one unit that seems to creep in the mix haha
Great video! However, your overall explanation suggests that analogue requires less work. Would you agree that more time and attention-to-detail are required to get the same results ITB?
Depends. I couldn't say either way. Analog has recall issues, so if you need to go back it's going to be a lot of time working through recall notes.
The amount of work and amount of plugins you use is dependent on the quality of your plugins. That's why I spend a lot of time creating comparisons so I know which give me a certain sound.
In my opinion if your ITB tools aren't up to scratch to give you the desired 3D affect of analog then you will spend way more time ITB to try and recreate it.
By its nature, a lot of analog gear just has those qualities and if your trying to get ITB to sound more OTB then it will require more work ensuring that every decision you make in the box is not having a negative affect over what you've already worked up to.
For example. You'll find somebody making their drums punchy and clear, stick an aliasing saturation plug over it all and then spend more time going back to individual tracks to get that transient response and clarity back as well as the colour of the saturation.
They then stick an aliasing compressor, truncating eq and a. Phasey enhancer on the mixbus and then spend even more time trying to fix seperate element's of the mix to get it all to work with the mixbus plugs.
There are countless scenarios. So I'd say analog will give you less work in that regard as aliasing, truncation, cramping, 'digital' phase, coding bugs etc etc doesn't exist in analog gear and will give you less headaches and less work to maintain that same analog depth, width, clarity and punch.
Once you've got your analog gear set up in your patch bay and routed in your DAW it's a pretty quick workflow.
Plugins give you more options which in itself can cause you more work. Analog is more limiting so it forces you to be more decisive.
Honestly it just depends on your own setup and your workflow in terms of which requires less work.
Depends on the quality of the source, quality of the plugins, quality of the gear, quality of the session setup and quality of the engineer.
So many variables 🤓
@@PaulThird - Thanks for your measured, comprehensive response!
When I asked Acustica directly on GS they said that their plugins support sample rates above 96k.
They've changed something recently in an update as when I oversample the aquas that were updated they don't multiply. The ones I hadn't updated multiply past 96k. Nebula still doesn't support over 96k though which isn't a surprise
How do you know what to push a particular plugin input to without aliasing? Don't many plugins sound better or have a sweet spot when you drive the input?
0vu is normally the plugins sweet spot (unless it's a fast transient like a snare). If you are completely pinning the plugin vu in the red like constantly +3 you know you are overloading at that point. You've got to remember that most analog emulations have their digital vu meters calibrated to a set dbfs level which is normally 0vu/-18dbfs (sometimes -12 on occasion).
If there's no vu then -18dbfs just to be safe and use your ears from there. Possibly do a sweep if you are anal about audible aliasing
My tip would be to use as less processing as possible. Why? If you ad a plugin and you focus the intention of your listening away from the instrument you are processing and to the other instruments, you will often hear that the other instruments in the mix lose definition by you adding another plugin in the chain. I learned this from Wessel Oltheten who wrote my favorite book 'Mixing with impact'. For me this works better then. using a lot of emulated plugins. I work hybrid by the way. So I don't really need emulated plugins at all.
Another tip is think before you add a plugin. I used to throw plugins an a sound just because I can. That's not a great strategy 😉
Now I use way less analog emulations compared to what I used to. My mixbus is very very clean. It's mostly linear eq's I use now mostly for everything and I add in saturation if I feel that a certain element really needs it.
My mixing template is very sparse
@@PaulThird same here. We keep on learning:-)
Still waiting on you to make a template I will pay top dollar for it ,nobody put in as much work finding the right plugins to get you as close to hardware ,thanks for what you do
Problem is.. My mix template Changes every month haha 😅
Lol it get better and better version 1, version 2 ,version 3 hey maybe you can do a shootout on your template and have the people decided what sound the best lol
Man as a mixing engineer coming from analog desk and rack ti tape machine I was having that same fake flat sound that makes plugins sounds like 2d until I found acoustica audio freeware pink cm and trust me it seems like s blanket lift off my mix and a dept width and a 3d feel just comes on and my bass just gets bigger especially with the preamp and tape then I just get a summing amp and my life of mix change forever
Acustica was a massive jump for me as well 🤘
I use to mix ITB now I'm hybrid I did gain stage and also leave lots of head room but always find my mix still sound lifeless until I upgrade my converters and added some outboard gear major difference almost instantly radio ready ..I dont buy any more plugins just want to use analog with plugins I got
Odd to hear that track in full after just hearing that one part so many times! Harrison mixbus can add depth to stems from other daws. Also airwindows console plugs do some really fun stuff but gain staging on those is extremely critical
Gain staging was one of the biggest things I learned early doors. Very important lesson 🤓
lol wanna see my template it looks crazy but I'm using the "transformer plugins" tube generators but learning about the fast Fourier and such mannnnnnnn! its all about that signal flow and gain staging.!! all this incite has me going mad and avid gonna sponser ya boy lol. if only you could talk to someone and get all that is needed
Haha in reality many developers are steering clear of me as I'm asking too many questions
So with -18db on gain st i will not get the same alliasing after pumping whole record with limiter on mastering?
Gain staging is irrelevant with limiters as the whole point of a limiter in mastering is to push your input signal into it.
If you want less aliasing from a limiter you oversample it.
However if it was say an analog emulation on the master that made a lot of saturation then yes you would preferably be looking to gain stage it to whatever 0vu is calibrated to in the plugin
I am new to the whole technical side of vst's, so i still have no idea how to fix this...
How do you control gain stage on plugins? Let's take Valhallaroom for example, it has no gain knob?
Gain stage on the way going in by using a vu meter plugin. I use MvMeter2. If there are plugins going into valhalla then you ensure the output of the Plugin going into it is gain staged.
I'm terms of reverb and delay sends I dunno if it matters as much as many don't have harmonics and as a send you want as much of the signal being sent to it as possible. Plus it's going to be low in the mix anyway so I can't see it making any real audible change. Depends on if the verb or delay introduces a crap ton of aliasing going hard into it.
IF it's on your actual tracks then yeah ensuring the same level is important but all my verbs and delays are aux sends anyway so I never have them on tracks unless I really wanna wash something out and have it sit way more in the background
Hello Paul!
👋👋👋
I managed to get ProTools 882/16s to sound OK summing on a mix system, with a quadra 950. So...
0:50 Stacy Lattisaw, chopped 🤘
Iv never known what the song actually is haha the guy that made the intro used it so it must be a royalty free track
@@PaulThird "Let Me Be Your Angel"
© 1980 Cotillion (Wxxxxr Music Group) 😕
routing your mixes to buses helps along with a nice summing box 16/2
It's something im gonna try at the very end of the mix. Comparing running the finished mix through mix analogs burl vs access analogs prism 🤓 I do like the sound the burls but can't justify over 2 grand just now haha 😅
@@PaulThird also check out DIYRecording. bought a 50 dollar passive summing box 2 db25 connections totaling 16 in to 2 xlr outs. Gives my busses a nice depth before sending to master bus. As well as everything you pointed out in this video. Gain stating allows for less processing all around the board.
I didn't know you could pick them up So cheap 🤯
@@PaulThird yes, passive is the way to go. Just gotta preamp it back in is all. This way you add your own harmonics from the gear you choose.
do you have any videos that show what analog gear looks like in PD???? any overdrives??? i am looking at tim distortion plug that i have and i have it 10k and raise distortion level the harmonic analysis section shows the harmonics evenly but there is 2k harmonic that is not a multiple of the 10k i have as my test tone... ???? why does this happen
Funnily enough coming next week haha the most important thing is the actual level of the harmonics. What is the dB level of the harmonics were talking about
@@PaulThird Hey partner :-) I always use -18dbfs when testing harmonics. for instance.. if you check gainstation 2 it has alot of aliasing harmonics from what i see.
But what's the actual dB level of the harmonics and the aliasing?
@@PaulThird both the even and aliasing harmonics are around 95db. The harmonics in gainstation 2 can go up to around -115db before the aliasing harmonics start to appear.. this is big jump in harmonic levels, it doesnt rise up gradually... its -115 then -95 with nothing in bewtween
Nothing to worry about then. Most people argue with me about -80db which I view as a realistic start of the audible threshold so anything under that is in my opinion inaudible and nothing to worry about
No point on focusing on stuff we can't hear
I'm use a lot of acustica but I only oversample the master bus? or should I do away with it lol
Do you mean you oversample acustica plugins that are on the master bus?
There’s none on the master bus and I don’t you “master aux or fader” I use a signal flow of auxs using send in returns and the standard clip is before my L2007 or L2 peak limiting and I over sample there. Each plugin mostly it’s on its own aux. I use rectifi on 3% thru positive before the limiter and sci-fi after on maybe %1 becuse of the slew.
Aren't Analog modeling plugins designed to work with a sufficient amount of gain fed through. How does that fit into all of this? You almost do need to turn the volume down on the track overall that way?
Well no because they are modelling analog gear. Distortion and saturation is the limitation to digital due to the way digital works.
In the analog domain the converter lobs off all the high end past niquist before its fed into the digital domain where in digital the harmonics are still reproduced past niquist even with a steep high pass filter at niquist.
You can feed analog hotter signals than 0vu but it will start to distort and clip which then becomes a sound that wasn't intended by the manufacturer.
So as the digital plugin is modelling the analog behaviour it should reproduce the same distortion and clipping behaviour.
So you can hit the plugin past whatever 0vu is calibrated to but you'll still end up with a result that isn't the intended character of that piece of gear.. As well as aliasing which the gear doesn't produce.
So you end up with a sound that isn't really the intended sound of the hardware as well as unmusical digital artefacts.
If you were to use the analog gear you'd gain stage it to 0vu so why not the plugin that is modelling the same behaviour?
the most painful live sound i've experienced was a show where the mixer was an old analogue guy who didn't understand digital gain staging. "make sure I'm getting good loud level" he wanted everything at least 10dB from clipping during the line check LOL. do you think the orange LEDs represent something significant??? as the set began I noticed he was clipping nearly every channel, so I reached over and pressed the clip hold on the M7CL, and of the 32 channels he had he clipped all but 9 iirc. I had my fingers in my ears the whole time they were playing.
Can someone explain me why VUMeter2 and Kramer HLS shows different values in VA metric in my DAW? Well this topic is more complex than seems to be
Cause it depends on the calibration of each vu. In the digital domain it's simply coding/calibration differences. Kramers 0vu might be -12, -14dbfs.
It all depends on what 0vu is calibrated to in the plugin
Please explain your thinking regarding the lowering of the gain of metaplugin by 18dB, that of course lowers the aliasing signals by 18dB, but also the processed signal, or are you adjusting another parameter? In other words what is the difference between lowering the gain in metaplugin or lowering the gain on the fader, or via a gain plugin. Obviously if you have an input gain to the plugin which “overloads” then you need to lower what’s going in, but surely the amount of aliasing added to a signal is proportionate to the signal level going in, so unless you can control the relative balance of aliasing to original processed signal, you are not lowering the aliasing. Am I missing something from your explanation.
I don't know why metaplugin is being mentioned (do you mean plugin doctor?) but in regards to the input gain vs fader.
Input gain is pre fader, fader is post fader.
Input gain controls the level of saturation created which in turn means it controls the amount of aliasing created. output or post gain doesn't. It merely increases the overall level.
You aren't reducing the gain by 18db when actually using the plugin, you are ensuring that its input hits around 0vu (which in most emulations is around -18dbfs)
In plugin doctor it defaults at 0dbfs which is the limit of digital audio before clipping. Analog doesn't work in 0dfs, it works in vu or dbu which is much lower in signal level.
so to ensure that an analog emulation is performing like the analog it modelled you have to gain stage it to what 0vu is calibrated to in the plugin.
-18dbfs is a good average level for gain staging analog emulations and doctor allows you to decrease the input level doing into the plugin which would technically be pre-fader.
@@PaulThird apologies I meant to say plugin doctor. So decreasing plugin Dr gain by 18dB how does this lower the input gain to the saturation plugin (I understand the methodology you are using re gain staging, just not clear on your implementation).