Who Proves Out Programs | CAM vs. Hand Coding | Machine Shop Talk Ep. 33
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.ย. 2024
- Today's shop talk discussion includes: who proves out programs in your shop, and is learning g-code necessary these days? Ian offers both sides of these conversations.
Do you program in G-code? How often do you use it? How does your shop organize your programs and who proves them out? Join the conversation in the comments or on the forum! Access the threads with these links:
Proving programs: www.practicalm...
CAM vs Hand Coding: www.practicalm...
Stay tuned for more videos!
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We do all our own on our own machines, we have mazatrol and gcode. I write some crazy long gcode programs too! We dont have programmers, set up guys, or operators, hell I've already loaded and unloaded trucks, cut my own stock etc,,,we all do everything here. All 9 of us,,we do large precision machining, smallest mill is a 20 by 40 inch table, largest is 200inches. I can stand in my magnum 800 horizontal! 32 by 32 pallet with 60hp! We survived on our talent
That’s the way to do it in my opinion as well! Everyone being up to speed is the goal for my shop, and if we’re not there yet - that’s what we’re working towards!
Hi guys just my five cents into this topic, I strongly believe that ain’t right or wrong is all about the need for each shop in our case we have three machinists per one programmer also always trying to stay ahead in planning each job that comes through so we stay ahead of the game, we understand that we make money if the spindles are turning and planing and consistency goes hand to hand, having a process well down when proofing and save programs is a must for us, our guys are very knowledgeable and our rule always stays if take you more than 15 minutes to fix it get help and usually that is the case, not that we doubt on their ability but is all about efficiency.
Just a humble opinion that I want to share and how we do it!
On the other topic I do believe it’s good to know basic G code but the way the machining industry is going in North America is the hard complex parts are the parts we are seeing at least in my shop, the easy 4 holes in a square block is way to competitive to get so if u want to be getting work that everyone and there brother is not nickeling and dimming on you have to go after the hard complex shapes hard to matching materials. You are never going to be able to write that program by hand so why bother wasting your time learning it. Put the effort in to honing in on the cam and getting really good at making solid programs. Do I think every engineer should have to learn how to run a cnc and what can actually be done on one yes 100% . What I see all the time is a small corner rad in a pocket that’s 3 inches deep you are never going to get a good finish unless you have a 5axis and you can tip the part away from the holder. Again I see it all the time put a 3/32 rad down a 2.5-3 inch wall we recently got a 5 axis so we have that capacity if it’s 100% needed but most of the times we call up the costumer and they say nope that’s not needed at all u can put a 1/2 endmill down that wall. Engineers get carried away with the rad feature in solid works I believe. Anyways again another great topic.
wow this sounds like a shop I use to be at! lol point blank he's right you make the program you go test it.
Previous shop I was in had engineers make the program and machinist setup and run the parts. Low production run stuff, extremely tight tolerance work. It was a pain to prove out 5 axis programs and very rarely did the engineers even come down to walk you through what features would be cut (most parts were roughed out and ran through the ovens for stress relief).They sent a pdf of what was needed to set the job up and a few pictures and that was about it. I would just dry run the entire program and make paper notes of each tool and what it did (most were about 30-40 tools used). I would spend the entire 10 hour shift proving it in and maybe run 1 part. Submit to inspection and wait….
I use fusion 360 for milling programs. It records revisions and the programmer both program and probe programs. We dont use cam for out lathes so we always save the nc programs with cimco nc base.it also saves and records revision changes in the programs. But its still a question about disciplin.
Thanks for the video again Ian 👍
Also cam VS gcode. I use both. I make parts that would be very hard to cam but I also make parts that would be impossible without cam.
I use everything, gcode, macro, cam and conversational.
I dont want to limit myself its All tools og the trade.
/Nikolai Høj
Thanks brother! I really like Fusion as well - we had a seat of it but I let it lapse, but I’m going to get it back in as another programming station for my guys. Keep up the good work!! 🍻🍻
@@ISandusky i have used it for 2 years for All My milling and I love it. I use it alot for 3+1 and 3 axis. I plan on getting the mfg extension when i get My New 5 axis aswell.
@@ISandusky i have my fusion setup with ALOT of templates and standart tools so programming is so fast. Like we talked about on LinkedIn in your automation post. Keeping spindle time up is a must and programming and setups need to be at the minimum. I also is looking into lang base plates for my machines to reduce the switch over.
Spot on! It’s about who owns the process or subprocess. 👍🏻
Exactly, accountability is the name of the game - cheers! 🍻🍻
One issue where we have had is when is when a particular tool isn’t available so the program is altered on the machine to suit what is available at the time then the altered program is backed up.
Next time job is run the the program doesn’t match the tools on the set up sheet
Feeds and speeds should be the only thing a set up operator is changing. Or of course a retract that is not right. Other then that everything should be changed in the cam and reposted. The other thing I would say is if it was that a drill was way to high on the rpm and blow the hole over size that would also be changed in cam so It does not happen again. Also if it is feeds and speeds and its going to be a recurring job and cycle times are critical, with in a shop like that I’m sure they are 100% critical then that should also be changed in cam. I work in a job shop where we have 4 machinist and 4 apprentices and we all have our own station with mastercam. The only time someone else would run a program is if it is a quantity of a complex part myself as the working supervisor will program it and the apprentice will run it, that being said I will hang out with him well prove out is going on to make sure there is nothing that could be optimized. Anyways great video great topic!!!
I make my own program , do set up , first op , even run the machine if needed. Just moved to a new shop after working in big shop , saw the old guy( 57 year ), programmer giving the set up guy nc file to do the first op. Tool crashed and he blame it on the set up guy. Problem is that they don't want to teach or have that responsibility. System continues and they create dumb set up guys who has there nc files saved for future run and set up.
I believe one who make the program should do everything until the first piece or few parts in case of production run to check the feasibility of set up .
Also if programmer left for vacation or day off in big shop with 15 plus machines, there must be someone who covers that guy. And to know how to change parameters in CAM not only in NC file always.
System will not change unless and until someone is given a chance or ready to learn.
I believed most machinists and programmers need to know both the Cad/Cam and Manual program, in case of something happens to the computer.
Is that a new VF4 SS Behind u?? Looks like a nice pcs of equipment
Thank you sir! Yep, just got it a few months ago, I usually don’t film in front of it because of that weird blow-off thing it does on occasion!
When a Haas says "bad command" and wont cycle start try telling it that there is no need to understand gcode in this day and age, its going to be a very long wait. Understanding the G & M functions and the basic blocks so you can spot them withing the code. being able to spot that the job card tells you to set the top of the part as zero but the zero in NC is at the base of the part - ooops. CAM will let you do it, the machine not so much. when i spot I & Js i just go its an arc init, manually calculate it to check the code - your having a laugh. Just stupid things like no coolant, its a tick box in fusion 360 with the tool selection and so easy to forget. From the early DIY homebuild days forgetting to enter a feed rate was a gottcha. Code runs fine ish but computer says No (a few scary Z moves). Myself and a few friends like viewing TH-cam machine crashes and guessing how far the vice/morkpiece will go, the ultimate has to be if the machine throws the vice which exits the rear of the machine penetrates the outside wall and ends up in the back of a pickup in the parking lot. Just calmly switch off the machin , put your jacket on and say night all and walk out the door. When you get home put the vice in the garage with the others. lol.
You buy a new haas? Sweet machine! Fill us in! Price, options, etc
Yes sir, good eye! VF4SS with all the trimmings except probing, since none of us use them anyway! 12k spindle and super fast rapids!
Personally use hand programming daily but also use CAM at least a couple times a week.
Most of my programs as we are a job shop are boilerplate programs I've written either by hand or conversational. I would definitely say you at minimum need to understand what you're seeing even if you aren't able to pull programs out of your a**.
Madera Community College has a complete manufacturing program including apprenticeship an a new Industry 4.0 Metrology lab.
they might be trying to save cash by only having one seat of CAD/CAM, having one programmer in a jobshop will most likely cause a bottleneck.
Definitely - I was shocked by that number of programmers vs machines / operators - but CAM ain’t cheap! I’ve been balking at putting in another Mastercam seat right now because $26k isn’t pocket change to my operation!
@@ISandusky Is it not possible to use student licences for a couple of shop floor PCs just to simulate programs/jobs. it shouldnt require a full seat licence just to view. Even open source programs like Camotics can offer basic 2.5D 3 axis simulations.
I know my G code but I dont think its necessary.
If you are going to be changing the code as the setup gut you are usually gonna change just the tool diameter to get the tolerances in or the feeds and speed and you dont need to know G code to do that. It is nice to know some basic M and G commands and as a programmer you need to know the updates. For example on a Haas the P value that changes the number of points in the contour that can speed up the roughing pass
I program for about 5 guys they’re in charge of making sure the program is good if speeds and feeds are changed they have to save it back this does create problems but that’s why every time your first part gets a first article to make sure it’s correct you run the tools about you check as you go I mean why would you repost a program that has allready been dialed in
Now one of the places I worked at had Pre Mazak machines and I saw a guy get reamed out for programming the job in by hand instead of using the tape back up of the job. We only had one tape reader that went from machine to machine and it was in use was the reason the operator did it by hand, yet still got reamed out for doing so. Then next place I worked at we had one programmer that did not know Mazatrol at all. Must be nice to be hired to program the CNC machines yet not know the language of the Mazak Mill an Turning Center 😂
If the cam doesn't make working code that has to be modified by hand on the controller then you should boomerang it straight to the reseller or whoever makes the post. I unfortunately have to do everything by hand. It's really easy to make mistakes and to rewrite all the programs would be too much work. Even though I have the advantage that I could make a master file and then just change some lines on it because I make shafts that are mostly same but different lengths and diameters. I say it's wrong to assume you can't understand g code if you use cam or vice versa. Older guys might be excellent at hand code but can't do anything on a computer. Kids these days would not be able to do hand code because they have to do it by hand. I know siemens code quite well at this point because I have hand coded it for 5 years. I know Fusion 360 quite well, I watch youtube videos and make stuff. I have some understanding of Mastercam and Gibbscam too. Basic understanding g code is important even though the code came from cam and has a million lines of high speed code that is basically not possible to read or modify by hand.
If I’m programming a part and I have to go and dial it in on the machine that’s bull crap I might as well go set up and run myself if the operator can’t do that then he should go elsewhere
Thats great but and the most efficient if you are 100% confident in your program, because the operators only job is to put the part in correctly and make sure the offsets are correct and after that if the machine crashes its absolutely 100% your fault, not the operators not the CAM and not the postprocesor, also your feeds and speeds need to be perfect so the endmills dont break.
And thats where setup guys come to play to prove the program and reccomend improvements on speeds and feeds
What does it cost to invest in your own staff, the learning material is free from Titans of cnc etc, the student can get student versions of the software. The actual cost to the employer is ummm thats right bugger all. it taks half an hour a week to have a catch up with an employee to see how they are progressing and offer advice/assistance where required. Any operator could/can learn CAM if not CAD as well. If we dont invest that into our company then we are basically taking the urine. The more knowledgeable people we have the better for the company. If your sat bitching about the skills shortage then perhaps you should start with management skills they must be in short supply if you cant put staff through free training. perhaps having a PC on the shop floor so that operators can simulate the file would be benificial. Granted a 10k line 3D NC file containing adaptive tool paths is not going to be somthing even a highly skilled coder is going to read anytime soon. If your sending an NC file without a job card to basically an operator to run for the first time, there be dragons.
Maybe I am out of touch but you mention someone running 500 parts on the wrong program. I have to ask..... How?? who was checking the parts where was the QC that could have spotted that early??
My apologies - I definitely exaggerated in that moment - but it’s been 50 parts, for sure. We’re a small shop. You pull a wrong rev level drawing and a wrong rev level program to check it against - it’s easy to miss. It’s not like you’re out .02” against the drawing - the problem is your documentation sucked and you’re on rev level B when level C is current.
@@ISandusky thanks for your reply! I love seeing how others do things. Where I work anything that isn’t current isn’t allowed to leave the office. We also check our own parts so QC is up to the individual toolmaker (I work in tool and die) however the owner still checks things before they go out the door.
@@WilliamPayneNZ 100% agree with you - that scenario was a long time ago, and there’s a good reason why I harp so hard on accountability and documentation these days! 🍻🍻
@@ISandusky the CNC guys where I work also out of preference will program, setup, and run their own stuff. They really like to do it all themselves.
The programmer and machinist should be the same person. The machinist though should learn about software version control tool like GIT or other kind of version control. To avoid loading wrong NC file that was obsolete.