Being a farmer, I would rather have the transformer machine because of the longevity of it. I am not too worried about efficiency; I am worried about dependability.
I've had equipment break out in a field, where I was able to run 500' of 12g wire to get it welded up with an inverter, to bring it back and do a real nice deep good fix with 3/16 rods back at the garage with the dialarc (assuming it was heavy, lots of fixes are easily good enough that needed thinner.) You sure aren't mobile with that heavy bitch. (like 400lb with wheels.) Even if you wanted to play a generator and welder game, you aren't getting the amps you need out there for the dialarc. There is no 30 amp>90 amp surge on any generator. I'd submit you should have both.
I used to think the same about the old transformer machines ( that is why I have 3 of them collecting dust and taking up space in my shop), but in the last few years I have not even plugged one of them in, the new inverter machines have been around long enough that they have them pretty darn well figured out and they are pretty solid performers even in the dependabilty department,,, plus even some of the China brands are getting to be pretty solid also and they are cheap enough to buy 2 or 3 of,,,, if one craps out just grab another and keep on working.
The better power factor would make using the new lithium battery packs instead of a generator a better choice as well. As much as gas powered generators run all day, there is a reason most handheld power tools are battery operated. The portability outweighs the lower running time.
I'm an electrician, I'm very impressed with you're grasp and ease of conveying the material. You would have no problem faking it at any A/C theory class, I think you missed your calling
@@privateassman8839 how alternating current systems work. The relationship of voltage and current with frequency. Much of what Greg covered with his power factor lesson
Agreed. In my youth (many years ago) I had electrical trades and electronic repair training, from HS to Trade Schools to the Military, and he explains things as clearly or better than many of the instructors I had.
Wowwwwww there’s not a video or classroom that I’ve seen yet that has giving us this type of detailed knowledge thank u we appreciate u God Bless always 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
You’re welcome and I am glad you enjoyed it. Without a doubt welders can be immensely complicated, but the info in the video will help explain how many work. There will always be outliers that function under different principals. There were a lot of oddball designs I left out because the video would have been 3 hours long lol. The cool thing is once you know how things work a little bit better you can understand more about all electrical stuff not just welders 😀. Also, shortly I will have a video out using an oscilloscope on the dial arc to show how it produces DC and how it smooths it out. I talked about how it did but to see the actual wave form on a screen will really help understand what’s going on 😀
There are a number of ways to get several fixed voltages and amps out of a transformer. Multiple input or output windings are common. Center tapped output windings are used too. The really old GE welders that were vertical metal cases that looked like small water heaters, had a crank on the top that changed the output, one place where the expression “crank it up” came from. Very good explanation, Greg. I’m not concerned about my welders not lasting 40 years. Industry doesn’t care either. Back when I started welding in 1973, all we had was transformer machines, so we never thought about it. But the industry didn’t advance much over the decades, so you could keep an old machine for a long time as nothing better was out there except in minor ways. But modern machines change every few years, so people don’t want to keep their welders for 40 years. It’s like Tv, for much of my life, Tv was 640 x 380 resolution, and you would really only get about half that on your cathode ray rube screen. Nothing changed for decades except for bigger tubes with pretty much petered out at 36 inches, except for a few very expensive 40 inch models. So we kept out TVs for a long time. When hi def came out, everything changed. Every few years higher rez came as well as larger screens and newer tech. Who wants to keep a Tv for 20-25 years anymore? No one. Pricing is another thing. Both welders and TVs cost much less (inflation adjusted) than they did in the early 1980s. The Miller you have would be a $3,000 machine today, if not more. Who would want to pay that for what they would be getting?
I definitely glossed over on the multiple taps on the transformer, thanks for mentioning that, the tombstones use those. The downside to that is fixed amperage outputs and far less adjustability. Those old tombstones are an even simpler version of that dial arc, which is why they never break lol. The downside being what you were talking about, technology moves on and sticking with the old is rarely a benefit. I am with you on your opinions, I don’t care if my new welders lasts 40 years, and I know they won’t. The capability they give and the efficiency they have, pay for themselves. With the amount of welding I do it would take 2-3 years to pay off a esab rogue 200 over a used transformer machine, just in the electric usage. It’s under warranty to that point, so I would come out ahead after that lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg eh, you do a really good job of explaining these sort of things. Actually, how you do all of this is different from anyone else I’ve seen. We all miss points now and then.
Excellent instructional video, Greg, thanks. I'm a retired engineer and wanted to add that when running on a battery/inverter you will draw down the battery at the full VA power, all that reactive power does show up in battery draw down. Some of your viewers might be considering a portable power type unit for a smaller welder. For that application you'd better buy a PF corrected welder! I have tested this myself with my own inverter design after being told this by a major inverter brand design engineer. I confirmed that he was right! Thanks again for the outstanding and interesting work!
Great thoughts on the battery pack, I never even thought of that. The inverter packs are getting bigger/more capacity/power output all the time, and it won’t be long before it’s feasible to run welders on common ones. The lack of PFC would be hugely detrimental on something like that.
There is one commercial portable welder that is lithium battery powered already on the market that I've only seen on youtube.. Direct from battery tor DC weldiing is the most power efficient way to go since DC to DC conversion has no power factor and can be the highest efficiency type buck converter/regulator. I do stick welding from 36V /110ah in marine batteries with a strip/penal resistor to adjust current and a big gapped toroidal transformer core choke for arc stabilization. Same on 24V in batteries (separate output connection) for scratch start TIG which I'm just learning. Its fine for the small projects I have. I can recharge a bit while doing prep or other busy work. I carry it in my tractor bucket for field work/repairs. Simple but effective.
DeWalt sells a battery unit for the ESAB Rogue. Not sure offhand which one. Works well, I’ve been told. It’s funny because both companies have the same yellow and black color scheme, so they look like they belong together, welder on top of the battery unit.
That's interesting about the DeWalt battery for the ESAB Rogue, Mel, thanks. I sure do appreciate the high quality technical educational content that Greg creates. This one was a complex topic and he did it SO well!
Reactive power does not draw down the battery on an inverter. The reactive energy gets stored in the inductance and capacitance of the circuit and is not lost. The battery gets drawn down according to the power use, ie Watts, not VA.
What I've found in my experience is if you have a 100% duty inverter welder with a hot start you can barely if at all tell the difference from it and an old school transformer welder. On an inverter welder without a hot start you will find it a pain in the butt to strike your weld, and anything under 100% duty will have you pulling your hair out before the day is over... This is because the big old welders have plenty of power to deliver so they start instantly, and some of the cheaper inverter welders seem to build up power over time until it overheats because of lack of duty and stops you.
The small, cheap welders give full power upon startup. But volts times amps is power, which is watts. So you can have two welders with the same output amps can have different power output, as the cheap little welder puts out lower voltage. 24 volts times 200 amps is 4,800 watts. 28 volts times 200 amps is 5,400 watts. So the better welder has more output power. Most really big welders have a 60% duty cycle at highest output. Some do go higher. But really, a welder isn’t usually used at full output.
@@melgross I agree, and yes it's incredibly rare to see a welder with full duty at max output, but it's also more common for the bigger old welders to take a beating at nearly full load and never miss a lick whereas something like a Chinese inverter welder will be like 10sec run 30 minutes cool down when you try the same. (You will figure it out the hard way if you ever try to weld on something like heavy equipment with 3/16" 7018 pushing over 200amps)
@@Megellin I certainly agree when it comes to cheap equipment. But it’s also not fair to compare equipment that’s not like to like. So we really need to compare modern inverter welders that are made for constant high output with these old dinosaurs. A 300 amp ESAB Warrior model will keep up very happily and so will the equivalent from other major manufacturers. And if we want to go crazy, we can compare 400, 500 and even higher rated models. I would never compare a $200 welder with a $3,000 one of any vintage at higher power levels, particularly. I’m sure you wouldn’t either.
@@melgross depends, the reason I'm tempted to compare a cheap inverter welder to those "dinosaurs" is because I can go to an estate sale and pick up a "dinosaur" that still works well for like $500, and it can outperform most $1000+ inverter welders which I never rarely see in estate or yard sales at good prices, and when I do they are usually broken.
@@Megellinmy Chinese everlast sti200 inverter welder can do 200amps(max output) at 35% duty cycle. It also has hot start and some other feature to boost amps when your getting short arcs. It’s a damn good machine for the $350 I paid for it. I got my foot in the door for welding with an affordable price. Also states It has 70v open voltage. I’ll have to double check that with my multi meter.
Recently i was troubleshooting and old golf cart charger. Came across something called a swamping capacitor. Was a way to use the magnetic permiabilty and the saturation of the core to regulate the charge current. Basically a way to waste away energy to protect the equipment from too much current. Not something many engineers would choose to use today, but i fixed it, you know, like always
This was a excellent walkthrough the functional design of the different zypes of machine. Absolutely great! And always on the point, never took it to deep, never "over-simplified". You are a teach er like one should be!
Thanks for the kind words. It can be difficult to explain complex things in a simple manner (especially because there is so much I don’t understand about what goes on behind the scenes of electricity). Then of course it’s a struggle to know what to include and what to omit. The great thing is there are some exceptionally smart people that comment on the videos and their information really fills the gaps of what I left out or got wrong. The great thing is a bit more understanding of how stuff works opens up a much better understanding of how the world works 😀
Excellent video. Being old school learned a lot about the different welders. Now I understand why they call the inverter welders, high frequency welders.
Long long time ago studied welding technology. Mostly theoretical but a little hands on experience. For stick welding an old rotating motor generator was used. 3 phase in, DC out. The easiest welder to use for a newbie. The brute force of the rotating inertia kept an arc whatever you did. With soft YD start it was ease on the mains fuses. Weighting more than half a ton and three times larger than a comparable transformer.
Pretty much. They both work, but there are a lot of benefits to more modern tech. The main one being size lol. I can’t imagine trying to carry a 225a Lincoln tombstone around vs a modern inverter lol.
Awesome video!!! It was spot on from beginning to end, and well balanced too. The Miller’s PF was better than I thought it would be. I was expecting something closer to 30-40 percent. The ESAB was about what I expected for a higher quality design and build. What surprised me was the Titanium 225’s efficiency, which I thought would have been better, but then again what do you expect for a $300 welder! I was very impressed with the whole thing, and I really liked the sequence, and how you built on each principle in a very logical well presented way, including your graphics, and pop ups. Well done Greg, you are an awesome teacher, and I love your sense of humor and humble approach in all your videos. Thank You for everything you have taught me, and the welding community.
Thanks for the kind words. Once I get home tomorrow I will be getting on my laptop and getting back to you. Needless to say some serious setbacks have happened for me, but things will be ok.
Way back in the early 1980's I ordered a Dialarc 250 HF with High frequency for stick and tig welding. I also ordered it with power factor correction for a few centavos more. Well worth the expense as it reduced the amperage draw by 20 to 25%. I still have the machine and it has and will serve me well.
Awesome that it has worked for you for that long, but not surprising because of how they are built. I definitely will be keeping mine for a long time. Once I can find a shop to buy I will be hooking it up and leaving it at a bench to be used for random jobs/teaching people 😀.
Well appreciated - orders-of-magnitude increase in understanding given - massive thanks. I knew from being told "efficiency - about 50% transformer, nearly 100% inverter". The power factor thing I had no idea of I must admit. That portability goes up with both efficiency *and* power-factor I was oblivious to. I do know that good brand inverters are the ones which give the nice welding and run well - thanks for revealing why.
You’re entirely welcome. The power factor issue is something that makes an amazing difference in capability with machines when run on 120v or on a generator. Having good power factor can do things like give the ability to weld at 120amps with stick on a 120volt 20amp breaker, something that is completely impossible to do with a transformer machine. For a machine that sits in a garage plugged to a 50amp outlet, power factor and efficiency is of little concern. For a portable unit that you want to carry around, it is a huge concern. Those little high quality portable stick/tig welders from esab, miller, Lincoln, fronius, etc are amazing in actual capability. I have multi pass welded 1 inch thick plates together with x ray quality welds with the esab rogue I have on a 20 amp breaker. That is crazy to think of out of something the size of a shoe box on a normal outlet. Technology can be an awesome thing 😀.
I used to weld with a Dialarc 250. I burnt a rod of rod with it. I now have several Everlast welders. The only thing I miss is AC, which the inverter machines won't do. As far as hard start is concerned, most inverter welders have an "inductance" setting, which helps. The inverter welder has more repeatable settings. When you turn up the knob on the Dialarc to do an adjustment you never know exactly how much it is going to go up. WIth an inverter you do and you can go back to the old setting.
Yep, the modern setup of a dial and an amp read out is nice. I used to have an ideal arc 250 Lincoln and that sucker was all over the board for output lol. The dial arc seems far more accurate but it’s still plus or minus 5amps or more. Not to mention I am sure the hotter it gets the more it’s off lol.
Got both types except inverter MiG. This is as far as l know the most detailed and indepth comparison of the two types of technology. And to be fair, a brilliant and informative video to make one ponder on the options. Saying that, new transformer machines were banned last year here in the UK. So unless you find old new stock or go secondhand you cannot buy a transformer based welder as a new unit anymore in the UK. I diff my welding mask in your direction young man in respect!
Interesting that they were banned. From a realistic standpoint they are unbelievably inefficient, so I guess times change lol. Much like the old incandescent bulbs.
I have a video coming out this week dealing with generators and power factor. In part of the video I test two mig welders (one with power factor and one without) at the same settings. Obviously different outcomes with power loading 😀. Anyway I am glad you liked the videos. You have the right mindset, watch a bunch of videos and practice 😀. I will tell you what I tell everyone that’s learning to weld: the key is to be smooth & consistent in movement, and to practice. And most importantly expect to be frustrated a lot but don’t give up 👍
Glad you liked it. The fun part was testing everything. To me it’s pretty amazing what a modern inverter can do. I like that dial arc a lot (it welds really well) but no way would I trade that rogue 200 for one, it’s simply too convenient, and useful.
Glad to hear you enjoyed it 😀👍. Technology has changed a ton but the older stuff still works pretty good. Just expect to pay a ton in electrical costs 😅.
That’s correct, they are fairly uncommon, I have seen probably 40 ones without it for everyone with it. I have heard that it lowers the max amp draw to more reasonable levels but increases the lower output amperage loading. I tried to find test results of that setup but I think everyone is confused as to what they see on the input side. Right now my machine loads the input line at 33amps at 90a output, and pulls 5a at no load. People were saying it would pull 20a at idle with the capacitor. Which I think they are incorrectly looking at their meters. It’s probably producing a lot of reactive power with the capacitor with no load, but under a load it improves the power factor of the machine significantly. In a house the main benefit would be smaller wires and breaker, in a shop the benefit would be not being docked by the power company for poor power factor lol.
Mag-Amp design was used on some machines for a while...Magnetic amplifier.....Look into that.....I repaired welders a long time including inverters......I never had formal electrical school training but did go to both Miller and Lincoln tech school and was certified by both. I never stopped trying to learn and comprehend what I was working on.....The old transformer based machines lasted forever....the inverters are not going to have the same life span......
My Miller 330AB/P has the magnetic amplifying transformer to control fine current adjustment. It’s a solid system. It’s a 1978 model. The only problem I’ve experienced is the bridge rectifier on the 36v control circuit has failed twice ($20 part) and the transmission capacitors for the hi freq went bad. I’ve had this machine for 20 years of good service. I personally will not buy any electronic machines for any real money. I can’t fix electrical but I’m lost with electronics. Plus modern Lincoln pc boards are encapsulated and are not serviceable. A friend had a 200A Lincoln mig that was months outta warranty when the $1200 main board failed. He scrapped it
@@mshort7087 I know all about the modern machines vs the old stuff. I have 3 machines at home. All inverters because I just wanted new. I hardly use them but they do work well.
Amazing video. PF of the titanium was no surprise but the efficiency was was. Measurements sure show what's going on. You did great with this. I hate trying to explain electricity to people that don't have a background in the field.
Thanks. I definitely had to do a lot of reading and talking with people far smarter than me to get a really good handle on what’s going on. It’s pretty crazy how complex things can get in a hurry lol.
Glad you liked it 😀. I wish I could have seen a video like it years ago because it would have saved me a ton of time reading & testing things to figure out everything lol.
I have a (supposedly) early 50s vintage Westinghouse 480 Amp transformer welder. It weighs about 400lbs. I'm no professional welder, but I'm fairly certain I can weld a battleship hull back together with it.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg instead of lead pockets like most Westinghouse machines have, it's got and infinite dial. I've only been able to find one picture online of one like it.
Not a variac, it an inductive slug that changes the efficency of the transformer by adjusting the permiability of the core material used by the windings. A variac is basically an auto former with multiple taps accessed by a wiper and can actually increase the voltage although most only do so by a few volts. They are indispencible as a bench tool for anyone working with electronics and many service manuals expect one and call for procrdures that require them. Important to point out they do not provide isolation and a 1 to 1 transformer makes a nice paring to an autoformer for any techs bench
Thank you for taking the time to explain the differences between the inverter vera the old transformer machine. I understand old electronics but didn’t keep up with the technology and I couldn’t tell you anything about the components of the new inverter machine. Been wanting to teach myself how to tig weld and I will have to buy a new inverter machine and my bobcat has the capability of tig welding but I don’t have the torch or any of the stuff needed. And the price of gasoline I’ll be getting a inverter type of machine. Thanks again you put lots of information in this video and it’s all good info.
No problem 😀. There are a ton of differences but the truth is old and new both can get the job done. The new modern machines are really efficient and for tig welding sake I prefer them. Speaking of tig I will be starting a how to tig weld video series soon. If you have decent experience with stick or mig tig isn’t that hard. Think of tig like learning to write. It took a while to get good at it and you sucked at the start. Once you got it the actual task isn’t that hard. You had to teach your hands how to move properly, which took time to develop. Tig is the same way, it just comes down to smooth movement, consistent movement, consistent arc gap, and consistent filler metal addition. Once you build the muscle memory it’s pretty easy. I am sure you will get it, and it’s definitely worth learning 😀
No problem, I am glad you liked it 😃. It’s pretty crazy to think of how much power that particular dial arc machine consumes. 600 watt idle is more than every welder I own idling combined lol. Not to mention a modern inverter would probably output 160-170a at the same under load power consumption. The old transformer machines still weld excellent though 😀
@@makingmistakeswithgreg I've just gone off grid, and am running from 20kw batties, a 8000 (yes thousand) inverter and solar and generator to input the power back to the batties That's why I found your video so welcoming You, running from a generator was obviously the inspiration for your video, and what a grate video it was. Yes transformer are old school but still very needed My 8000 whatt inverter has a transformer inside, the idle consumption is absolutely tiny believe it or not It's a Schneider conext xw pluss. Anyway, thanks again for your grate video
A lot to learn in this lesson young man. Very interesting to see the comparison charts for usage. It would appear, IGBT welders are the way forward, but, the better the brand quality the better the effiency. In amongst my welding resources I have two transformer based Mig welders, three IGBT stick/Tig welders, one welder generator and one oil filled 180amp plus battery charger Oxford Bantam. The latter doesn't really have a "duty cycle". My oldest IGBT is an Oerlikon Presto 140G which is about 20yrs old. I bought it second hand four years ago and it has been a brilliant bit of kit. I may have to rethink my welders stock?
One of the things I have noticed over the years is that the way to make the best welds is to get a welder and do enough welding with it so that you know what it will do. I have welded on a countless number of machines and every one of them is slightly different. When you are very familiar with a machine you get the best performance with it. Without a doubt new machines offer a ton more adjustability, but a learning curve as well. Familiarity can go a long way to improve welds. 😀
It’s far more practical that’s for sure. The small inverter welders are my favorite welders to use. I have done hundreds of jobs with them and the practicality of the setup makes them the best for me. I can’t imagine hauling around a big transformer machine to help friends out and such.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg I been trying out the new Miller 142 MiG. Only 120 volts but it is light and far for several jobs. I like the digital display so I can fine tune my welds. I am considering an Esab Rogue 200 like you have.
Wow, Electrical Engineering 101. Thank you for the PF lecture. I learnt a lot. I would like to see a video where you discuss why many inverter welders do not burn 6010 and 6011 rods well. The arc goes out quickly and it is difficult to burn the rod continuously.
You’re in luck, I did a video on just that, link below. The general reason is as follows: The primary reason many inverter welders won’t run 6010 is because they can’t maintain a closed circuit voltage of over 28v. The power supplies for tig and MiG welders function great at sub 26v. 6013/7018/7014 all run great at sub 26v. 6011 can hit 28v and 6010 is generally over 30 for a 1/8th rod. To make the welder capable of outputting 33v at 90 amps to run a 6010 requires one of a number of things to work, all of which cost money. It’s possible the welder could output 33v but it would be at 160amps or more, which is useless for running a 1/8th rod. The primary reason being the transformer winding ratio is not ideal and also the overall design had more basic rods in mind. To make matters worse many welders that are “all in ones” run 6010 poorly despite claiming they can run it. For best 6010 performance it takes a dedicated stick welder designed for higher output voltage at lower outputs. th-cam.com/video/qVr15sXRolo/w-d-xo.htmlsi=wbFFXNCZCQT3CKLl
@@makingmistakeswithgregthanks man, I needed to hear that 😅. I bought 6013 which worked fine with my welder then I got 6010 and he said they are pathetic. My 7018 rods also didn't work for the reasons I don't know. I am from Pakistan and my welder is good man but he needs a lot to learn. I will tell him this and I will buy him a heavy duty welding machine 😀. Probably transformer type
You can't see electron flow, but you can see the effects of electron movement with an ammeter. Transformers operating at 350 kc/s are usually have powered iron cores, not laminated sheets. Ron W4BIN
The old machines are an excellent backup, or have always hooked up in the shop. The new welders have a lot of excellent features like hot start and adjustable arc force control that are really useful. Not to mention on a single 20a 120 outlet you can literally get 90-110 amps of output out of them (provided they have power factor correction). I like the old school welders but the newer stuff in many ways is a lot better.
Afraid to jinx it...pleasantly surprised there hasn't (yet) been a blue Miller fanboy coming to the defense of his beloved brand! Don't get me wrong, Miller is top notch equipment, and does have modern inverter welders-but thinking about it this way-this old transformer unit is a carbureted 1st-gen small-block going up against a modern fuel-injected, computer controlled V8. Better efficiencies and power output being the common denominator here. Technology marches along, generally for the better.
Does not make sense to say abouts brands when we are talking about efficency and the technologies differences in welder machines. I have only inverters but as said the host, each machine its unique and take time to adapt or get accostumed to get the best perfomance in welding, I agree with the host too about using old machines as backups because are very reliable. Thanks a lot. (and i am a Miller Fanboy without Miller welders :P)
As you said your explanation of power factor wasn't totally technically accurate but still very helpful. I don't think the issue with power factor is that current reflects back from the welder to the input. That extra current is in fact coming from the input to the welder but can't be used because it's out of phase with the voltage (caused by inductances in the welder). Voltage and current need to be in phase to provide useable power. Utility companies measure and bill only for useable power.
If you look at the input current waveform of the Titanium, it won't look very sinusoidal, whereas the Esab will. That means that the RMS value will be very high - even if the phase angle is good - and you pay for that even if the heat losses aren't actually as high as that might suggest. One practical benefit of a PFC is that you can run a higher output from a receptacle with a limited current.
I definitely will look at the input on a scope to see what’s going on, and I bet that will show up. Thanks for the thoughts on that. You are absolutely right on the PFC helping on less power. I tested that esab a bunch (on camera and off) and it will literally weld a 1/8th 7018 at 120 actual output amps on a 120v 20a circuit. The usefulness of that can’t be overstated, anyone with a 20amp 120 outlet could use that welder to weld thick plate. Basically you actually have useful capability on minimal power. Anyone who is stuck with an inefficient welder (or one with poor power factor) will be severely limited in what they can do on a 20a outlet.
Many Dialarcs (and Lincoln Idealarcs) remain in commercial/industrial use. Most reasons for going inverter involve mobility not cost. BTW Dialarc, Idealarc and even monsters like my 340 AB/P will run off a 50A source but not maxed out. The old machines cost less used than a replacement inverter board. Used machines are cheap enough to have both. Also worth noting if you already have a stout RPC (rotary phase converter) they will run transformer machines. (Shop Floor Talk fora have some useful threads). I have an RPC to run three phase machine tools and air compressors. In your manual (Miller and Lincoln have them for free download so get one for everything) info on breaker size etc for various three phase connections shows why that's worth considering. When I built my shop I had a new service placed on a pole with a breaker panel so powering large machinery is NBD (and getting power before shop makes building the shop much easier and more convenient). If you want to run big rods or weld aluminum at high amps appropriate transformer machines are worth having. My old Miller will output 500 amps and the arc is delightful. It was 250 bucks because the seller saw a "three phase" sticker on a box mounted to it. I knew I could run it single phase because I download manuals BEFORE buying. It's the size of a fridge and weighs about 1300 lbs but those downsides only matter when moving it. Tip: A Tommy Gate can be "assisted" by a couple of ag jacks when (not grossly) overloaded for the popoff valve. It's easy to accumulate used industrial welders with some looking. I have lighter machines too because covering all bases pays off.
All great thoughts, thanks for sharing 😃. I definitely like the way most of the older machines run. Right now I am doing some repair work for a shop on some heavy plate (1/2 to 3/4). I am using their miller goldstar 400 to both arc gouge and stick weld. It’s amazing how smooth the machine is, and how I can go from running a 1/4inch carbon rod to a 3/32 7018 with the machine making it seem effortless. Great tip on the reading the manual/knowing the machine for 3 vs single phase. Years ago I scored an ideal arc Lincoln for a 100$ because the owner thought it was 3 phase only (it was wired for 3phase). I knew it could be easily rewired for single, which is exactly what I did lol.
in uk 240/415 volt mains 50volt ac oil cooled transformer welding sets brandcalled oxford etc one most common type welding sets from late 30/s/40/s untill80s/90/s
Another advantage of smaller modern welder is that instead of letting it in the shop and having 100' of expensive welding cable, long extension cord are smaller gage. And you can have the welder with you so it can be easier to adjust amperage if you need to.
Definitely. That’s why I push the smaller form factor welders so much, especially the ones with power factor correction. The power output they have (even on 120) and the portability is unmatched.
I just welded a truck frame and the gap is less than perfect, I was very happy to have the amperage dial on hand rather than creeping out of this hard to get position! And after welding at 110-120 amps for 1 hour the machine was barely warm.. By the way awesome video you did!
Flux core wire produces really good penetration. The only downside to it is that on material thicker than 1/4inch self shielded flux core wire (smaller than .045) will have a tendency to produce porosity in the welds. This has to do with how gas gets trapped in the solidifying weld. The only way to fix this is to run bigger wire with much higher heat input. For most things 1/4in and down flux core works really well.
Since welding and the workshop is what I do for fun, it’s nice to be able to share that with other people and hopefully inspire people to pickup tools themselves. I am pretty fortunate to be able to have a lot of nice tools and the ability to test things. I am hoping in the next year or so that I can find a new building to buy and start a full time shop. Time will tell.
I bought the cheapest Amazon fcaw welder I could find with the intentions of using it only for a single project. I have to tell you that 2 years later I've ran about 10 lb of 035 through it and cannot believe how impressive a Chinesium knock off welder could be for $70. Even if I had to replace this every 6 or 12 months, it's worth it! It's tiny and convenient and I can run it off my solar power to inverter.
A question on the two for wire sizes, the old buz boxes had the american size and china uses metric which is roughly a tad larger. Could these make a difference on how the new one's work. Im following you on this post. Sorry for my goofy questions
So buzz boxes are almost as simple as it’s possible to make a a/c welder. You have a simple transformer with fixed wiring. The dial on the front just controls the secondary transformer “tap”. Or in simple words how much of the windings of wires are utilized. Because this is completely fixed with no electronics or moving parts there is very little that will change how a buzz box welds. Cable size can play a role. If the output cable is smaller than it should be (or made of cheaper material), the voltage could drop. The drop in voltage along with current restriction of the wire will produce a different running rod. Another thing to consider with buzz boxes is construction. Older ones were straight copper, the newer ones are often aluminum wire. Because you’re running a fixed transformer tap, an old machine at 90a might actually be 90a and a newer one might be 85. That’s enough to notice without a doubt. Another sort of weird product of their design is they don’t really regulate amperage or compensate for input power. If the input voltage is 225v or say 245v (which is within the normal range of 240v from the power company) you will have differing outputs. So something as simple as the input powers average voltage will affect the output current. If you have noticed differences in how one buzz box runs compared to another the above things are likely why.
I have a very old lincoln 225 arc welder, when i turn it on theres times when i have to give it a smack on the side to get it going full. Im wondering since the farmer i hot it from it was kept in the corn bin. When I got it there wasn't anything wrong. Im thinking it might have been from less usage. I'm keeping it for memories. I picked up a harbor freight 140 on 120v. I really enjoy your posts.
If it doesn’t quite hit higher output it likely dirty contractor on the switch (if it has a switch to adjust amperage). Most older machine are so simple there isn’t much that can go wrong. It’s amazing how long they will last and still work.
I like old welders so I would have to take old blue, I have a Lincoln 225 thoomstone I would like to have dc but stuck with ac been running for 31 years it has done me well for a home welder .
You can just convert it to dc. This simplify the explanation you just would add a full bridge rectifier, but there are tons of TH-cam videos that show how easy it is to make the conversion, with the affordability and this small time requirement there's really no reason to not do it
Thanks, glad you liked it 😀. It was fun to make and the results were quite interesting to me. It’s pretty crazy to think how power hungry the old dial arc is, 600w at idle and almost double the actual consumption under load. Definitely unexpected lol.
Thanks, a very interesting comparison. When houses or commercial premises were mainly fitted with fluorescent lights, those lights had power factor correction capacitors on board to compensate for the reactance of the choke. Electricity utilities charge for the total power, which includes reactive power. Therefore where much of the load is reactive, as it would be in fluorescent lighting installations without capacitors, the capacitors, as a result of improving the PF, lower the electricity bills.
Most of my transformer machines just had taps into the output side of the transformer so you can select how many coils are active, seems far more simple and adjustable than those methods. I will say that as well as the inductor/choke on the the output it's very common to have a capacitor bank on the output too.
So the tap method works but it gives far less fine tuning adjustability. The tombstone welders traditionally had multiple amperage taps but most were centered around 90-130amps. Many dial arc and ideal arc machines were used for tig or required different volt/amp curves for different rods, so they really benefited by having far more adjustability. No doubt it’s far more complex, and in many cases isn’t necessarily a huge benefit. A capacitor bank would also work just like you said, i believe they started going to that over the big copper mass inductor in more than a few of the transformer machines. I wonder if the capacitors would be more effective. I bet they would be more efficient.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg I believe some did just because the copper inductors were getting expensive (same machines you see with aluminium transformers) - but my old Cimes unit here has both inductors and capacitors on the output. I believe it's to give some semblance of hot start as well as smoothing the output.
On my dialarc hf ive replaced the on off switch twice. Lost ac on it until i blew it out very well. The last switch was 177 dollars. It used to set in a very damp and dusty area. Has been a very tough machine.
No doubt they will survive a long time. I like the design far better than the Lincoln ideal arcs. Far easier to adjust amperage, and somehow slightly lighter. Not saying much since the dial arc weighs around 300lbs 😅
Excellent video,, I learn so much from your content. Do have to ask though, what is it about stick welding that we all love and can't seem to stop watching? Nostalgia? I dunno, just love it. Thanks for all the teaching, you are a great educator.
I think nostalgia might be it. Although I like tig welding the most, it’s not as satisfying as stick welding. To me stick welding reminds me of my father making it look easy welding steel with a buzz box and 6013. When later that night I went into the garage to try what he did, and I spent 3 hours sticking rods to scrap steel with zero progress lol.
While AC has 60 cycles per second, the Full Bridge Rectifier provides 120 cycles per second. The negative pulse portion is just flipped to the upper + side.
The reason why that choke coil on the new welder is so tiny is because high frequency signals are really easy to filter out. Also I'm going to say 90% those capacitors are for flattening out the bridge rectifier on the incoming 240v so the IGBT gets nice clean DC. What's really clever about the IGBT concept is by controlling the pulse width of the generated AC signal you can make a dirt simple transformer do so many tricks that are just impossible when you're dealing with 60hz and you have nothing but copper coils to work with.
Thanks for your thoughts on that. Being that I have minimal electrical background I appreciate all the tips and thoughts people leave. It definitely is very cool what can be accomplished with a simple transformer when you can manipulate the Ac going into it. Especially from a simple efficiency and physical size standpoint.
Hey thanks, I'm not that much of an expert, in fact your explanation of power factor is what finally made it click for me. Your video got me thinking, you could probably build an efficient "low tech" welder using a DC generator, The Zach Life channel recently went over a 1940s (I believe) Lincoln which had a physical generator on it, neat design.
12:00 electromotive force is the same as voltage. It’s the reason Ohms’s law is generally written as E=I*R. I’m guessing the shunt is a tap on the secondary.
There’s an Airco-branded equivalent of the Dialarc, called a “bumblebee…” I’ve used one a few times. They run 6011s really good, and the same for 7018-AC (the 7018s you can find at, say, Löwes.)
I have seen those for sale occasionally. I am not exactly sure on what the partnership with miller was, but it’s very common to see orange painted machines that are similar to all the millers of the same vintage. Many times they had a few extra features over the millers equivalent.
Be aware most envert welders require a clean pure sine wave power supply. Plugging them in to a cheap non invert modified sine wave generator can easily burn up the electronics inside a IGBT invert welder. I have a really nice Everlast 221stI and it says never run it on a dirty power source from a gen set. It voids the warranty. So People looking to power a welder off a generator need to be aware the generator they need for a invert welder can be upto 3 times more expensive. That said I have welded over 30 plus years and I am never going to give up my everlast. It is such a great machine and it welds so very smooth.
You are correct, and bring up a excellent point. When I finally finish my generator/welder video that’s something I definitely touch on. I run my machines on a generator, but it is a pure sine wave inverter. That is the only way to get long longevity out of most modern welders. The dirty power of most generators (especially cheap ones) will cause welder failures in a hurry no doubt.
Hi, I am from The Netherlands and i have the transformer version its 4.5 kVA 220/380V did buy it ,new, in 1975 to weld a central heating system in a 2000 m3 (500 acres) glasshouse. It's a great, both ways, machine to use especially if you want/need to weld for many hours at a time (300 A continuos allowed). If i needed , more ocasionally, welding outside the garage than i whould buy a small one for sure. BTW i'm a not a profession welder, my day to day work is electronics and ,industrial, computer programming. Now i use it seldome as i have nearly never have to weld a thing. 🙄
Welcome, and it’s awesome to be able to hear from people all over the world 😀. If you need a lot of output and reliability it is hard to beat the old transformer machines 😀
So the tombstone is a much simpler design because it’s 240v only and has one amperage range. So it omits the input transformer the dial arc has, and from what I remember it also has only one transformer. Since most are A/C only there is no loss in a bridge rectifier or in the output reactor. My guess is it would be in the area of 60% or so. They still suffer from poor power factor as well, they generally require 50a breakers to get above 180amps output.
For a shop welder they work great. They definitely weld smooth and start a rod really nice. I definitely will keep the one I have for a long time and use it from time to time.
Some new cheap dc inverter machines only let u trim volts and select plate thickness (synergic control). If ur stick welding it displays amps drawn while ur welding only
I have done a bunch of scratch start. It welds just like lift arc with a harder start. What I used to do with that setup is use my filler rod and quickly strike it between the tungsten and the work piece. It would often start the arc and not contaminate the tungsten like is common by scratching it like a rod.
Sweet. It'll try that. Thanks mate. I made a kill-switch from a 200A relay, so I can kill the arc but keep nuzzle in place not to lose the gas flow. Works decent. Still trying to learn. Tricky but fun ^^
The large breaker these transformers require is due to the inrush current inherent to inductive loads like transformers and motors. Once the initial spike passes, no more than 1/60 of a second, it settles down to a current more in line with what you'd expect from the turns ratio. It's not pulling 90 amps continuously at full output, but only for the first AC cycle after turning on. With that being said, laminated iron transformer cores are much less efficient than an inverter. Part of this difference in efficiency comes from the typical use of a toroidal transformer core in the inverter machines. Iron powder toroid cores are significantly more efficient than laminated E/I iron cores at transferring power from one winding to the other.
Based on omitting power factor, 90a output requires 17amps consumption. If it has the same efficiency at higher outputs that puts its consumption at 34a at 180 and 51a at 270a output. Due to the large amount of reactive power it spits back into the input line, the input wire could easily see 70-80a load on it while welding maxed out. There is inrush however a normal breaker can handle a 2x breaker rating for 3-10 seconds without tripping. The power factor corrected version helps improve the power factor of the machine Inorder to limit the input line loading, this version can run on significantly less breaker rating and wire size. Basically it’s not that the machine actually consumes 33a as measured on the input side at 90a out, it’s that the reactive power it’s pushing back on the line requires a much bigger breaker and power wires to handle the current. The current is real, it exists, it just does no useful work. In the previous video where I ran the dial arc for a couple welds, it was successful in welding about 1 inch with a 1/8th 7018 at 120 amps before it tripped a 30a breaker. The initial inrush during power up, striking of the arc, and welding didn’t trip the magnetic trip of the breaker. However the thermal trip caused the breaker to trip over time because the breaker saw a 37a load on the wire. Based on what I saw it would be impossible to weld half a rod with the dial arc on a 50a breaker at anything above 230a. To hit 265 maxed out you would need a 70a breaker at a minimum or it will thermal trip. A 80-90a breaker would allow a person to weld nonstop for minutes at a time without a thermal trip.
If I missed it I apologize, but, did you mention duty cycle of the machines? Units like the ideal arc can weld all day non stop depending on out put requirements. I don't see those little units welding on a pipe line or other large projects. Good for home shop, very lite duty use.
I briefly mentioned it but you’re right. The dial arc can output 200+ amps practically all day, the titanium wouldn’t that’s for sure. A modern equivalent of the dial arc, such as a maxstar 350 or 300-350 amp inverter would likely be 30% more efficient and if it had power factor correction it would be possible to hit 350a of output on a 50a 240 breaker. That’s pretty ludicrous amount of output in comparison lol.
That little shoebox won't but a larger equivalent inverter machine(still smaller than the dinosaur) will keep up. He specifically mentioned several times the machines in the video are not equivalent in spec they're just what he had on hand to show the difference in tech. He even mentioned one close to the same spec as the dinosaur would be about 2x the size of the shoebox. I mean you say you may have missed it but it's almost like you missed half the video.
I if you do get a hold of those older machines, some are taken from big companies which have power factor correction systems , will draw near full amps at idle
So I need to do some investigation into that issue. I have read exactly what you said on forms, with typical input loadings of 20-30a at “idle”, and it’s probably correct. However not in the way it’s looked at on face value. Here is the thing, the welder itself can’t draw more power than it consumes at idle. Right now it consumes 600 watts at idle without a PFC capacitor. Putting a large capacitor on the input can’t cause the welder itself to draw more power than it consumes. The capacitor isn’t going to draw and consume 15-25 amps on it own, that’s not how they work. What is likely happening is the PFC capacitor is causing the input line to be loaded with reactive current at idle. As the welder is put under load the reactive current lowers and the input loading lessens. Basically the loading on the input wire at say 120a output may measure the same as 160a. It’s not that the input power measured is wrong, it might be higher than a non PFC unit due to reactive power. However it would likely load the input line to less amperage at all levels above the lowest output levels. A simple capacitor setup will only make the power factor significantly better at specific outputs, likely under higher amperage. For a shop that gets fined for poor power factor by the power company, the capacitor would be worth it. For a home gamer that doesn’t pay for reactive power at lower outputs there would be little to gain, it won’t use less electricity that you pay for. It would give the ability to run the machine on significantly less wire size and breaker rating though.
had customer bring in for different problem (fixed problem) but told him i couldnt put plug back because had gotten hot and was melted (dryer plug) measured and was drawing 60 amps at idle . was a miller syncrowave and had power factor correcting installed. ask him how long he had had he said about ten years . and said he has replaced aboutmay have @@makingmistakeswithgreg
Have you ever worked with the old vertical lincoln torpedos? There was a small discussion on the Garage Journal forum about them, and I guess they were very smooth to run.
So those torpedos are quite a unique welder because they function completely different than any transformer machine. Essentially what many of them are is a 3phase electric motor hooked to a DC generator, and they function much like an engine drive generator welder of years past. Many of the engine drive generators were well known for how good the arc was, and that had to do with the fact they used a “reactor” on a pure DC output, which in simple terms the clearness of the DC was unmatched. With transformer welders they used A/c and rectified it to DC, which was never as smooth DC (even with a reactor to clean it up) as a straight dc generator. You could also do interesting things like control the voltage/amp curves of the machines to match the rod size/type you’re running. The dial arc does this by having essentially two different transformers with different volt/amp curves. Many of those torpedos had 4 to 7 curves to pick from so you could really tailor the arc to what you were welding. The main downsides to torpedos is most had 3phase motors, they typically were loud when running (since it’s a literal electric motor spinning anytime it’s on), and they would take more skill to tune due to having multiple volt/amp curves vs just a dial. I bet the efficiency of them would be slightly better than a dial arc.
Hi Greg, very well done video, as usual. I have two 3/ph motor-generator welders, my Lincoln SAE 300 and my GE 400. Both work great and are fairly easy to set-up. The SAE 300 has the sweetest pure DC arc I have encountered, and I have used many welders in my 60 years of welding. My favorite welder is my Airco 300 MTS Inverter which I bought new 32 years ago. The meter claims I have 3300 + hours of arc time and well over 90,000 hours of on-time. In 32 years I have repaired this machine one time, a switch failed about 20 years ago, the repair was less than 100$. I paid about $3500 for the Airco in 1992 so it was never a bargain basement machine, but it indicates inverter based welders can last for some time.@@makingmistakeswithgreg
Yeah transformer based are rock solid, though top of the class invertors can be very reliable-they can last decades, IGBT devices have improved-which is usually the first thing to go short circuit. The need for small PSU's in consumer products has driven the advances in SMPS's and the components, resulting in better welder invertor designs, without the high volume consumer switch mode designs, its doubtful we would have the welders we have today. We also have pulsed stick welding features now, which was never possible with these old types. Wonder why the old welders didnt use the more efficient Toroidal design, maybe cost? (using large Ferrites).
That’s a great question on the toroidal power supplies. In the case of the big dial arc I think it’s more conventional design worked better because it allowed them to use multiple winding ratios on the same core by switching which side of the core is used. That would be tough to do with a toroidal design (maybe it would be possible?). For simpler welders I am not sure why they weren’t used, especially in more modern machines.
Hello Greg, great vid yet again. I live off grid and would like to request a vid content. Can you do a short video on dirty power vs clean power and what we can get away with and what not to do with regards to new generator/ old welder / new welder/ old generator and how they should be used to play well with one another? Just things to look for and look out for when selecting a combo. Or… just forget the request and I strictly use my new gen with the new welder and the old gen with the old welder.. ? Don’t be afraid to use the chalkboard we don’t expect you to buy stuff to make your excellent points understood👍🙏👋 freezer’
So I have shot a welder-generator video, and edited it twice. Then I found out more information and wasn’t happy with the video lol. So this week I am shooting it and it will be out shortly. It’s only been 6months since I said I would do it but it will happen this time. 😀
The worst thing about an inverter welder is that one day you will go to use it and it won’t work, worked great last time you used it but it’s broken now and you have no idea why. There’s about a thousand components in it, they all look fine but now you have a $1500 box of junk.
I see the cost as a moot point, if you weld a fair amount the electricity savings in over 3-4 years would probably pay for the inverter welder. Take for example the dial arc vs esab. The dial arc costs 300-400$ used. You can buy a new inverter welder capable of 200amps stick for 300 to 1k (esab is 1k) The dial arc for my use would cost me between 200-300$ more electricity in a year. Just idling the dial arc eats 600 watts, which is not out of line with min at transformer welders. Within 3-4 years the electrical savings alone paid for the price difference. Most new welders that are decent have a 3-5 year warranty, so I will still have a functioning welder at that point. It’s always best to have multiple welders vs one, so even if a new one went down I have a backup while it’s getting fixed. The transformer welders are reliable but most don’t have things like arc force, hot start, and the controls inverters have. They are also extremely big/heavy and require a ton of power. For a shop welder it pays to have one transformer machine, but they are losing out to inverters every day that passes.
@@makingmistakeswithgregDon’t get me wrong, I’m not saying you are wrong but you better have an old transformer machine to use while you’re waiting for a new inverter machine you just ordered to come in because your current one just died. Because it will die. Hopefully later rather than sooner. I have a Everlast 210ext for tig welding and use it maybe 5 times a year. Had it 5 years and it will cut out immediately after striking an arc now. Some kind of sensor issue I imagine but with all the circuitry in there it’s not for the faint of heart to try a repair, so do you spend $500 on an old transformer machine, $500 on a new Harbor Freight one, $1500 on a new Everlast, AHP, etc. or $2000 on a new Miller inverter (entry with zero settings) or anywhere in between that and $3000 for a nicer new Miller with settings? Once you do, will you get 5 years out of it. I don’t know. I agree with you but the $500 transformer Miller Syncrowave 300 with HF start and pulse settings in my area is looking very nice right now. 😊
I think you might have it backwards on Miller vs. Lincoln and shunts... Miller (Hobart) use a shunted transformer, where Lincoln uses a tapped transformer... at least on the 'buzzbox' welders. Also, with the new "Smart" power meters, the power company now charges you for everything... Apparent power and Real Power. Yup, you're paying for it.
The buzz box welders indeed use multiple taps on the transformer to achieve multiple outputs. Lincoln’s ideal arc (up until atleast the 80s) used a shunt that would be inserted in to main transformer to change the magnetic field. This is why they have a big heavy to turn knob in the front and a gear reduction on it that goes to a shunt. The ideal arc (main competition to the dial arc) never used millers setup that I am aware of. The dial arc is much more pleasent to use lol. As far as the meter goes the local power company can indeed monitor power factor, however I was told by the power company that they don’t charge residential customers for reactive power. I know this is not the same everywhere, I am unsure as to how common this is. I haven’t paid an electric bill in over a year so I can’t even inspect a bill to see if any details are given on it regarding this.
Hi Greg. Thanks for this video. It clarified a lot of my electrical doubts about welders. Could you please share the model of the "super nice thing" you used to measure the electrical consumption? Maybe I will buy one for me to play with. Until the next video, stay happy! Sart0
That device is a power factor and wattage meter available here www.amazon.com/Current-Amperage-Voltmeter-Multimeter-Transformer/dp/B07JB9B2QL/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?crid=EL7EUIAV37T3&keywords=current+meter+power+factor&qid=1707730547&sprefix=current+meter+power+factor%2Caps%2C99&sr=8-2 Because it calculates actual wattage consumed and amp loading on the input, it’s very accurate. I have also checked it with a ton of instruments and it’s pretty accurate overall, definitely for non laboratory testing 😀
Miller , Lincoln etc make you pay dearly for their names. I am shocked to discover just the 2 alphabet AC which I need to weld aluminum basically doubled the price. I likely be forced to buy a Chinese welder later , like Everlast.
Everlast is pretty solid. The main limitation they have is fit/finish, and their software. Their simpler welders are really good. Their lightining series software is a bit rough. The thing I appreciate about everlast is they don’t lie about capabilities or specs. They have proven to be reliable. They also weld very good generally speaking.
You do pay for reactive power. Whether it is true power or reactive power you will have it showing through your meter on house as consumed power. At least I think that’s the way I see it. Will cost you much more to run buzz box.
It’s completely based on the meter you have and the local power company. A residence doesn’t typically have the reactive power an industrial shop has, so in many cases they simply aren’t charged for it. Outside of a big welder there is very little in a normal house that would be anywhere near something like a dial arc 250. Most electrical meters function much like the device I used to measure the welder, they calculate consumed wattage and a bunch of other things. A houses power factor is generally far better than say a factory, and those can be penalized due to poor power factor because they could literally have thousands of amps of reactive power going back to the grid. In my case I am not charged for a poor power factor when tied to the grid via a house meter.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Thankyou for the info. I was told you pay for all power. It is good to know about it all. Really enjoyed your explaining of welders. I learned a lot Thanks
You have current transformer its like choke for high amperage current on another winding you bring oposite phase voltage from reostat, if no regulation voltage you have maximum current when you bring maksimum current choke have high resistance so welding current is small Basicly you have main transformer,( give you welding current, and 30V controll voltage separate windings) current transformer look like multiple windings nd switch hi lo ampers(variable choke) reostat. It can be easy upgrade adding Thyristor regulation and additional electronic for fine current controll. More advance than magnetic shunt. You use low electric current to controll welding current. Really advance idea. Thanks to Miller companny for idea. I will be buy old school magnetic shunt machine it is only 30€ in EU nobody like them, and upgrade like Miller dialer.
Very good run down on power factor and power consumption. I was awhere of efficent welders but did not know about power factors. When I bought my welders as looked for the ones that had low full amp draws at max welding amps due to my 40 amp breaker. All mine draw less then 30 amps. My 2 Fronius welders on 240v draw 28 amps at max amps welding. They never blow a breaker. In fact at most welding amps 90 to 130 amps, the fan never comes on. Now that is efficient. So now I know they must have a better power factor not that you made this video.
Fronius has power factor correction on most of their welders (especially their small ones) so they have amazing power output without issues of tripping breakers. It’s pretty amazing how much output you can get when you have a super efficient welder and power factor correction. You can get useable power on 120v and huge power on 240v.
Being a farmer, I would rather have the transformer machine because of the longevity of it. I am not too worried about efficiency; I am worried about dependability.
Agreed , the old Dial-Arc will still be going strong long after a person burns out 3 inverter welders . 😃
I've had equipment break out in a field, where I was able to run 500' of 12g wire to get it welded up with an inverter, to bring it back and do a real nice deep good fix with 3/16 rods back at the garage with the dialarc (assuming it was heavy, lots of fixes are easily good enough that needed thinner.) You sure aren't mobile with that heavy bitch. (like 400lb with wheels.) Even if you wanted to play a generator and welder game, you aren't getting the amps you need out there for the dialarc. There is no 30 amp>90 amp surge on any generator. I'd submit you should have both.
I used to think the same about the old transformer machines ( that is why I have 3 of them collecting dust and taking up space in my shop), but in the last few years I have not even plugged one of them in, the new inverter machines have been around long enough that they have them pretty darn well figured out and they are pretty solid performers even in the dependabilty department,,, plus even some of the China brands are getting to be pretty solid also and they are cheap enough to buy 2 or 3 of,,,, if one craps out just grab another and keep on working.
The better power factor would make using the new lithium battery packs instead of a generator a better choice as well. As much as gas powered generators run all day, there is a reason most handheld power tools are battery operated. The portability outweighs the lower running time.
Whats more important reliability of your welder, or your back after hefting one of those monsters around)
I'm an electrician, I'm very impressed with you're grasp and ease of conveying the material. You would have no problem faking it at any A/C theory class, I think you missed your calling
What's A/C theory?
@@privateassman8839 how alternating current systems work. The relationship of voltage and current with frequency. Much of what Greg covered with his power factor lesson
@@privateassman8839I think he did a typo. AC theory is the electrical theories surrounding alternating current electricity.
Agreed. In my youth (many years ago) I had electrical trades and electronic repair training, from HS to Trade Schools to the Military, and he explains things as clearly or better than many of the instructors I had.
@@ianbelletti6241 Oh thanks
Wowwwwww there’s not a video or classroom that I’ve seen yet that has giving us this type of detailed knowledge thank u we appreciate u God Bless always 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
You’re welcome and I am glad you enjoyed it. Without a doubt welders can be immensely complicated, but the info in the video will help explain how many work. There will always be outliers that function under different principals. There were a lot of oddball designs I left out because the video would have been 3 hours long lol. The cool thing is once you know how things work a little bit better you can understand more about all electrical stuff not just welders 😀. Also, shortly I will have a video out using an oscilloscope on the dial arc to show how it produces DC and how it smooths it out. I talked about how it did but to see the actual wave form on a screen will really help understand what’s going on 😀
There are a number of ways to get several fixed voltages and amps out of a transformer. Multiple input or output windings are common. Center tapped output windings are used too. The really old GE welders that were vertical metal cases that looked like small water heaters, had a crank on the top that changed the output, one place where the expression “crank it up” came from. Very good explanation, Greg. I’m not concerned about my welders not lasting 40 years. Industry doesn’t care either. Back when I started welding in 1973, all we had was transformer machines, so we never thought about it. But the industry didn’t advance much over the decades, so you could keep an old machine for a long time as nothing better was out there except in minor ways. But modern machines change every few years, so people don’t want to keep their welders for 40 years. It’s like Tv, for much of my life, Tv was 640 x 380 resolution, and you would really only get about half that on your cathode ray rube screen. Nothing changed for decades except for bigger tubes with pretty much petered out at 36 inches, except for a few very expensive 40 inch models. So we kept out TVs for a long time. When hi def came out, everything changed. Every few years higher rez came as well as larger screens and newer tech. Who wants to keep a Tv for 20-25 years anymore? No one. Pricing is another thing. Both welders and TVs cost much less (inflation adjusted) than they did in the early 1980s. The Miller you have would be a $3,000 machine today, if not more. Who would want to pay that for what they would be getting?
I definitely glossed over on the multiple taps on the transformer, thanks for mentioning that, the tombstones use those. The downside to that is fixed amperage outputs and far less adjustability. Those old tombstones are an even simpler version of that dial arc, which is why they never break lol. The downside being what you were talking about, technology moves on and sticking with the old is rarely a benefit. I am with you on your opinions, I don’t care if my new welders lasts 40 years, and I know they won’t. The capability they give and the efficiency they have, pay for themselves. With the amount of welding I do it would take 2-3 years to pay off a esab rogue 200 over a used transformer machine, just in the electric usage. It’s under warranty to that point, so I would come out ahead after that lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg eh, you do a really good job of explaining these sort of things. Actually, how you do all of this is different from anyone else I’ve seen. We all miss points now and then.
Excellent instructional video, Greg, thanks. I'm a retired engineer and wanted to add that when running on a battery/inverter you will draw down the battery at the full VA power, all that reactive power does show up in battery draw down. Some of your viewers might be considering a portable power type unit for a smaller welder. For that application you'd better buy a PF corrected welder! I have tested this myself with my own inverter design after being told this by a major inverter brand design engineer. I confirmed that he was right!
Thanks again for the outstanding and interesting work!
Great thoughts on the battery pack, I never even thought of that. The inverter packs are getting bigger/more capacity/power output all the time, and it won’t be long before it’s feasible to run welders on common ones. The lack of PFC would be hugely detrimental on something like that.
There is one commercial portable welder that is lithium battery powered already on the market that I've only seen on youtube.. Direct from battery tor DC weldiing is the most power efficient way to go since DC to DC conversion has no power factor and can be the highest efficiency type buck converter/regulator. I do stick welding from 36V /110ah in marine batteries with a strip/penal resistor to adjust current and a big gapped toroidal transformer core choke for arc stabilization. Same on 24V in batteries (separate output connection) for scratch start TIG which I'm just learning. Its fine for the small projects I have. I can recharge a bit while doing prep or other busy work. I carry it in my tractor bucket for field work/repairs. Simple but effective.
DeWalt sells a battery unit for the ESAB Rogue. Not sure offhand which one. Works well, I’ve been told. It’s funny because both companies have the same yellow and black color scheme, so they look like they belong together, welder on top of the battery unit.
That's interesting about the DeWalt battery for the ESAB Rogue, Mel, thanks. I sure do appreciate the high quality technical educational content that Greg creates. This one was a complex topic and he did it SO well!
Reactive power does not draw down the battery on an inverter. The reactive energy gets stored in the inductance and capacitance of the circuit and is not lost. The battery gets drawn down according to the power use, ie Watts, not VA.
What I've found in my experience is if you have a 100% duty inverter welder with a hot start you can barely if at all tell the difference from it and an old school transformer welder. On an inverter welder without a hot start you will find it a pain in the butt to strike your weld, and anything under 100% duty will have you pulling your hair out before the day is over... This is because the big old welders have plenty of power to deliver so they start instantly, and some of the cheaper inverter welders seem to build up power over time until it overheats because of lack of duty and stops you.
The small, cheap welders give full power upon startup. But volts times amps is power, which is watts. So you can have two welders with the same output amps can have different power output, as the cheap little welder puts out lower voltage. 24 volts times 200 amps is 4,800 watts. 28 volts times 200 amps is 5,400 watts. So the better welder has more output power. Most really big welders have a 60% duty cycle at highest output. Some do go higher. But really, a welder isn’t usually used at full output.
@@melgross I agree, and yes it's incredibly rare to see a welder with full duty at max output, but it's also more common for the bigger old welders to take a beating at nearly full load and never miss a lick whereas something like a Chinese inverter welder will be like 10sec run 30 minutes cool down when you try the same. (You will figure it out the hard way if you ever try to weld on something like heavy equipment with 3/16" 7018 pushing over 200amps)
@@Megellin I certainly agree when it comes to cheap equipment. But it’s also not fair to compare equipment that’s not like to like. So we really need to compare modern inverter welders that are made for constant high output with these old dinosaurs. A 300 amp ESAB Warrior model will keep up very happily and so will the equivalent from other major manufacturers. And if we want to go crazy, we can compare 400, 500 and even higher rated models. I would never compare a $200 welder with a $3,000 one of any vintage at higher power levels, particularly. I’m sure you wouldn’t either.
@@melgross depends, the reason I'm tempted to compare a cheap inverter welder to those "dinosaurs" is because I can go to an estate sale and pick up a "dinosaur" that still works well for like $500, and it can outperform most $1000+ inverter welders which I never rarely see in estate or yard sales at good prices, and when I do they are usually broken.
@@Megellinmy Chinese everlast sti200 inverter welder can do 200amps(max output) at 35% duty cycle. It also has hot start and some other feature to boost amps when your getting short arcs. It’s a damn good machine for the $350 I paid for it. I got my foot in the door for welding with an affordable price. Also states It has 70v open voltage. I’ll have to double check that with my multi meter.
Recently i was troubleshooting and old golf cart charger. Came across something called a swamping capacitor. Was a way to use the magnetic permiabilty and the saturation of the core to regulate the charge current. Basically a way to waste away energy to protect the equipment from too much current. Not something many engineers would choose to use today, but i fixed it, you know, like always
The Lincoln ideal arc 300/300 tig from the 70's uses a saturated core transformer to help finely adjust the amp setting .
This was a excellent walkthrough the functional design of the different zypes of machine. Absolutely great! And always on the point, never took it to deep, never "over-simplified". You are a teach er like one should be!
Your channel is top notch. Such a good depth of knowledge conveyed simple enough for the average diy’r to understand
Thanks for the kind words. It can be difficult to explain complex things in a simple manner (especially because there is so much I don’t understand about what goes on behind the scenes of electricity). Then of course it’s a struggle to know what to include and what to omit. The great thing is there are some exceptionally smart people that comment on the videos and their information really fills the gaps of what I left out or got wrong. The great thing is a bit more understanding of how stuff works opens up a much better understanding of how the world works 😀
Excellent video. Being old school learned a lot about the different welders. Now I understand why they call the inverter welders, high frequency welders.
Lincoln Coffee Pot on 3ph is the answer ! Seriously , this was a very good instructional video . Thanks
No problem 😀.
Long long time ago studied welding technology. Mostly theoretical but a little hands on experience. For stick welding an old rotating motor generator was used. 3 phase in, DC out.
The easiest welder to use for a newbie. The brute force of the rotating inertia kept an arc whatever you did. With soft YD start it was ease on the mains fuses.
Weighting more than half a ton and three times larger than a comparable transformer.
Transformer machines are analog, and inverter machines are digital... more or less. As always, thanks Greg. You rock
Pretty much. They both work, but there are a lot of benefits to more modern tech. The main one being size lol. I can’t imagine trying to carry a 225a Lincoln tombstone around vs a modern inverter lol.
Good education video.
Old geezer learning still.
Thanks, never stop learning 😀
Awesome video!!! It was spot on from beginning to end, and well balanced too.
The Miller’s PF was better than I thought it would be. I was expecting something closer to 30-40 percent. The ESAB was about what I expected for a higher quality design and build. What surprised me was the Titanium 225’s efficiency, which I thought would have been better, but then again what do you expect for a $300 welder!
I was very impressed with the whole thing, and I really liked the sequence, and how you built on each principle in a very logical well presented way, including your graphics, and pop ups. Well done Greg, you are an awesome teacher, and I love your sense of humor and humble approach in all your videos. Thank You for everything you have taught me, and the welding community.
Thanks for the kind words. Once I get home tomorrow I will be getting on my laptop and getting back to you. Needless to say some serious setbacks have happened for me, but things will be ok.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg I’m sorry to hear you’re having a rough go of it. Like you said, hopefully you will be OK.
Great video. I wish I knew this when I bought my welder.
Way back in the early 1980's I ordered a Dialarc 250 HF with High frequency for stick and tig welding. I also ordered it with power factor correction for a few centavos more. Well worth the expense as it reduced the amperage draw by 20 to 25%. I still have the machine and it has and will serve me well.
Awesome that it has worked for you for that long, but not surprising because of how they are built. I definitely will be keeping mine for a long time. Once I can find a shop to buy I will be hooking it up and leaving it at a bench to be used for random jobs/teaching people 😀.
Thx, appreciate you being here doing that.
No problem 😀
Well appreciated - orders-of-magnitude increase in understanding given - massive thanks. I knew from being told "efficiency - about 50% transformer, nearly 100% inverter". The power factor thing I had no idea of I must admit. That portability goes up with both efficiency *and* power-factor I was oblivious to. I do know that good brand inverters are the ones which give the nice welding and run well - thanks for revealing why.
You’re entirely welcome. The power factor issue is something that makes an amazing difference in capability with machines when run on 120v or on a generator. Having good power factor can do things like give the ability to weld at 120amps with stick on a 120volt 20amp breaker, something that is completely impossible to do with a transformer machine. For a machine that sits in a garage plugged to a 50amp outlet, power factor and efficiency is of little concern. For a portable unit that you want to carry around, it is a huge concern. Those little high quality portable stick/tig welders from esab, miller, Lincoln, fronius, etc are amazing in actual capability. I have multi pass welded 1 inch thick plates together with x ray quality welds with the esab rogue I have on a 20 amp breaker. That is crazy to think of out of something the size of a shoe box on a normal outlet. Technology can be an awesome thing 😀.
Explained in a very simple way! 👍
I used to weld with a Dialarc 250. I burnt a rod of rod with it. I now have several Everlast welders. The only thing I miss is AC, which the inverter machines won't do.
As far as hard start is concerned, most inverter welders have an "inductance" setting, which helps. The inverter welder has more repeatable settings. When you turn up the knob on the Dialarc to do an adjustment you never know exactly how much it is going to go up. WIth an inverter you do and you can go back to the old setting.
Yep, the modern setup of a dial and an amp read out is nice. I used to have an ideal arc 250 Lincoln and that sucker was all over the board for output lol. The dial arc seems far more accurate but it’s still plus or minus 5amps or more. Not to mention I am sure the hotter it gets the more it’s off lol.
Got both types except inverter MiG. This is as far as l know the most detailed and indepth comparison of the two types of technology.
And to be fair, a brilliant and informative video to make one ponder on the options. Saying that, new transformer machines were banned last year here in the UK. So unless you find old new stock or go secondhand you cannot buy a transformer based welder as a new unit anymore in the UK.
I diff my welding mask in your direction young man in respect!
Interesting that they were banned. From a realistic standpoint they are unbelievably inefficient, so I guess times change lol. Much like the old incandescent bulbs.
Dude, awesome video. Great explanation of power factor. Im a diyer learning how to weld and i appreciate the work you put into thes vids.
I have a video coming out this week dealing with generators and power factor. In part of the video I test two mig welders (one with power factor and one without) at the same settings. Obviously different outcomes with power loading 😀. Anyway I am glad you liked the videos. You have the right mindset, watch a bunch of videos and practice 😀. I will tell you what I tell everyone that’s learning to weld: the key is to be smooth & consistent in movement, and to practice. And most importantly expect to be frustrated a lot but don’t give up 👍
You did an excellent job explaining the Welder difference, in my opinion, mate.😊 GOOD VIDEO
Glad you liked it. The fun part was testing everything. To me it’s pretty amazing what a modern inverter can do. I like that dial arc a lot (it welds really well) but no way would I trade that rogue 200 for one, it’s simply too convenient, and useful.
That was a very interesting, informative video!
Glad to hear you enjoyed it 😀👍. Technology has changed a ton but the older stuff still works pretty good. Just expect to pay a ton in electrical costs 😅.
The Miller Dialarc welders were available with PF correction. Mine had it. It's just a big capacitor added to the input circuitry.
That’s correct, they are fairly uncommon, I have seen probably 40 ones without it for everyone with it. I have heard that it lowers the max amp draw to more reasonable levels but increases the lower output amperage loading. I tried to find test results of that setup but I think everyone is confused as to what they see on the input side. Right now my machine loads the input line at 33amps at 90a output, and pulls 5a at no load. People were saying it would pull 20a at idle with the capacitor. Which I think they are incorrectly looking at their meters. It’s probably producing a lot of reactive power with the capacitor with no load, but under a load it improves the power factor of the machine significantly. In a house the main benefit would be smaller wires and breaker, in a shop the benefit would be not being docked by the power company for poor power factor lol.
Mag-Amp design was used on some machines for a while...Magnetic amplifier.....Look into that.....I repaired welders a long time including inverters......I never had formal electrical school training but did go to both Miller and Lincoln tech school and was certified by both. I never stopped trying to learn and comprehend what I was working on.....The old transformer based machines lasted forever....the inverters are not going to have the same life span......
My Miller 330AB/P has the magnetic amplifying transformer to control fine current adjustment. It’s a solid system. It’s a 1978 model. The only problem I’ve experienced is the bridge rectifier on the 36v control circuit has failed twice ($20 part) and the transmission capacitors for the hi freq went bad. I’ve had this machine for 20 years of good service. I personally will not buy any electronic machines for any real money. I can’t fix electrical but I’m lost with electronics. Plus modern Lincoln pc boards are encapsulated and are not serviceable. A friend had a 200A Lincoln mig that was months outta warranty when the $1200 main board failed. He scrapped it
@@mshort7087 I know all about the modern machines vs the old stuff. I have 3 machines at home. All inverters because I just wanted new. I hardly use them but they do work well.
Amazing video. PF of the titanium was no surprise but the efficiency was was. Measurements sure show what's going on.
You did great with this. I hate trying to explain electricity to people that don't have a background in the field.
Thanks. I definitely had to do a lot of reading and talking with people far smarter than me to get a really good handle on what’s going on. It’s pretty crazy how complex things can get in a hurry lol.
Really interesting and informative. Very helpful. You do a good job explaining it. Thanks a lot.
No problem, I am glad you enjoyed the video 😀
Ton of info in this one- Thanks Greg!
No problem 😃
Great video. I learned a lot of new information from this one, thank you for sharing your knowledge
Awesome amount of information took some electronic classes in the navy muc( better information and instructions on this video thanks again
Glad you liked it 😀. I wish I could have seen a video like it years ago because it would have saved me a ton of time reading & testing things to figure out everything lol.
I have a (supposedly) early 50s vintage Westinghouse 480 Amp transformer welder. It weighs about 400lbs. I'm no professional welder, but I'm fairly certain I can weld a battleship hull back together with it.
Sounds awesome lol. I have seen Westinghouse equipment but never a welder that big. Must have come out of an industrial building for sure lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg instead of lead pockets like most Westinghouse machines have, it's got and infinite dial. I've only been able to find one picture online of one like it.
Not a variac, it an inductive slug that changes the efficency of the transformer by adjusting the permiability of the core material used by the windings. A variac is basically an auto former with multiple taps accessed by a wiper and can actually increase the voltage although most only do so by a few volts. They are indispencible as a bench tool for anyone working with electronics and many service manuals expect one and call for procrdures that require them. Important to point out they do not provide isolation and a 1 to 1 transformer makes a nice paring to an autoformer for any techs bench
Thank you for taking the time to explain the differences between the inverter vera the old transformer machine. I understand old electronics but didn’t keep up with the technology and I couldn’t tell you anything about the components of the new inverter machine. Been wanting to teach myself how to tig weld and I will have to buy a new inverter machine and my bobcat has the capability of tig welding but I don’t have the torch or any of the stuff needed. And the price of gasoline I’ll be getting a inverter type of machine. Thanks again you put lots of information in this video and it’s all good info.
No problem 😀. There are a ton of differences but the truth is old and new both can get the job done. The new modern machines are really efficient and for tig welding sake I prefer them. Speaking of tig I will be starting a how to tig weld video series soon. If you have decent experience with stick or mig tig isn’t that hard. Think of tig like learning to write. It took a while to get good at it and you sucked at the start. Once you got it the actual task isn’t that hard. You had to teach your hands how to move properly, which took time to develop. Tig is the same way, it just comes down to smooth movement, consistent movement, consistent arc gap, and consistent filler metal addition. Once you build the muscle memory it’s pretty easy. I am sure you will get it, and it’s definitely worth learning 😀
What a fascinating, informative and well presented video
Many kind thanks to you for taking the time to share this information us
No problem, I am glad you liked it 😃. It’s pretty crazy to think of how much power that particular dial arc machine consumes. 600 watt idle is more than every welder I own idling combined lol. Not to mention a modern inverter would probably output 160-170a at the same under load power consumption. The old transformer machines still weld excellent though 😀
@@makingmistakeswithgreg
I've just gone off grid, and am running from 20kw batties, a 8000 (yes thousand) inverter and solar and generator to input the power back to the batties
That's why I found your video so welcoming
You, running from a generator was obviously the inspiration for your video, and what a grate video it was.
Yes transformer are old school but still very needed
My 8000 whatt inverter has a transformer inside, the idle consumption is absolutely tiny believe it or not
It's a Schneider conext xw pluss.
Anyway, thanks again for your grate video
Excellent video and great information given many thanks 😊
Awesome vid, mate. I learned a lot. Thanks
A lot to learn in this lesson young man. Very interesting to see the comparison charts for usage. It would appear, IGBT welders are the way forward, but, the better the brand quality the better the effiency.
In amongst my welding resources I have two transformer based Mig welders, three IGBT stick/Tig welders, one welder generator and one oil filled 180amp plus battery charger Oxford Bantam. The latter doesn't really have a "duty cycle". My oldest IGBT is an Oerlikon Presto 140G which is about 20yrs old. I bought it second hand four years ago and it has been a brilliant bit of kit. I may have to rethink my welders stock?
One of the things I have noticed over the years is that the way to make the best welds is to get a welder and do enough welding with it so that you know what it will do. I have welded on a countless number of machines and every one of them is slightly different. When you are very familiar with a machine you get the best performance with it. Without a doubt new machines offer a ton more adjustability, but a learning curve as well. Familiarity can go a long way to improve welds. 😀
Loved the solid Geek out. Fantastic video. I would choose the esab all day long.
It’s far more practical that’s for sure. The small inverter welders are my favorite welders to use. I have done hundreds of jobs with them and the practicality of the setup makes them the best for me. I can’t imagine hauling around a big transformer machine to help friends out and such.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg I been trying out the new Miller 142 MiG. Only 120 volts but it is light and far for several jobs. I like the digital display so I can fine tune my welds. I am considering an Esab Rogue 200 like you have.
Wow, Electrical Engineering 101. Thank you for the PF lecture. I learnt a lot. I would like to see a video where you discuss why many inverter welders do not burn 6010 and 6011 rods well. The arc goes out quickly and it is difficult to burn the rod continuously.
You’re in luck, I did a video on just that, link below. The general reason is as follows: The primary reason many inverter welders won’t run 6010 is because they can’t maintain a closed circuit voltage of over 28v. The power supplies for tig and MiG welders function great at sub 26v. 6013/7018/7014 all run great at sub 26v. 6011 can hit 28v and 6010 is generally over 30 for a 1/8th rod. To make the welder capable of outputting 33v at 90 amps to run a 6010 requires one of a number of things to work, all of which cost money. It’s possible the welder could output 33v but it would be at 160amps or more, which is useless for running a 1/8th rod. The primary reason being the transformer winding ratio is not ideal and also the overall design had more basic rods in mind. To make matters worse many welders that are “all in ones” run 6010 poorly despite claiming they can run it. For best 6010 performance it takes a dedicated stick welder designed for higher output voltage at lower outputs.
th-cam.com/video/qVr15sXRolo/w-d-xo.htmlsi=wbFFXNCZCQT3CKLl
@@makingmistakeswithgregthanks man, I needed to hear that 😅. I bought 6013 which worked fine with my welder then I got 6010 and he said they are pathetic.
My 7018 rods also didn't work for the reasons I don't know. I am from Pakistan and my welder is good man but he needs a lot to learn. I will tell him this and I will buy him a heavy duty welding machine 😀. Probably transformer type
Thank you very much for sharing your knowledge Sir!
You’re welcome, I am glad you enjoyed the video.
You can't see electron flow, but you can see the effects of electron movement with an ammeter. Transformers operating at 350 kc/s are usually have powered iron cores, not laminated sheets. Ron W4BIN
Great video, makes me think it may be worth it to pick up a more modern welder than my grandfather's old tumbstone
The old machines are an excellent backup, or have always hooked up in the shop. The new welders have a lot of excellent features like hot start and adjustable arc force control that are really useful. Not to mention on a single 20a 120 outlet you can literally get 90-110 amps of output out of them (provided they have power factor correction). I like the old school welders but the newer stuff in many ways is a lot better.
Very nice presentation, thank you!
You’re welcome 😀
Best to have both.
2 is definitely better than one 😀
Afraid to jinx it...pleasantly surprised there hasn't (yet) been a blue Miller fanboy coming to the defense of his beloved brand! Don't get me wrong, Miller is top notch equipment, and does have modern inverter welders-but thinking about it this way-this old transformer unit is a carbureted 1st-gen small-block going up against a modern fuel-injected, computer controlled V8. Better efficiencies and power output being the common denominator here. Technology marches along, generally for the better.
Without a doubt I like the simplicity of it, but I would be lying if I said I would take it over a modern stick welder lol.
Does not make sense to say abouts brands when we are talking about efficency and the technologies differences in welder machines. I have only inverters but as said the host, each machine its unique and take time to adapt or get accostumed to get the best perfomance in welding, I agree with the host too about using old machines as backups because are very reliable. Thanks a lot. (and i am a Miller Fanboy without Miller welders :P)
As you said your explanation of power factor wasn't totally technically accurate but still very helpful. I don't think the issue with power factor is that current reflects back from the welder to the input. That extra current is in fact coming from the input to the welder but can't be used because it's out of phase with the voltage (caused by inductances in the welder). Voltage and current need to be in phase to provide useable power. Utility companies measure and bill only for useable power.
If you look at the input current waveform of the Titanium, it won't look very sinusoidal, whereas the Esab will. That means that the RMS value will be very high - even if the phase angle is good - and you pay for that even if the heat losses aren't actually as high as that might suggest. One practical benefit of a PFC is that you can run a higher output from a receptacle with a limited current.
I definitely will look at the input on a scope to see what’s going on, and I bet that will show up. Thanks for the thoughts on that. You are absolutely right on the PFC helping on less power. I tested that esab a bunch (on camera and off) and it will literally weld a 1/8th 7018 at 120 actual output amps on a 120v 20a circuit. The usefulness of that can’t be overstated, anyone with a 20amp 120 outlet could use that welder to weld thick plate. Basically you actually have useful capability on minimal power. Anyone who is stuck with an inefficient welder (or one with poor power factor) will be severely limited in what they can do on a 20a outlet.
Many Dialarcs (and Lincoln Idealarcs) remain in commercial/industrial use. Most reasons for going inverter involve mobility not cost. BTW Dialarc, Idealarc and even monsters like my 340 AB/P will run off a 50A source but not maxed out. The old machines cost less used than a replacement inverter board. Used machines are cheap enough to have both. Also worth noting if you already have a stout RPC (rotary phase converter) they will run transformer machines. (Shop Floor Talk fora have some useful threads). I have an RPC to run three phase machine tools and air compressors. In your manual (Miller and Lincoln have them for free download so get one for everything) info on breaker size etc for various three phase connections shows why that's worth considering. When I built my shop I had a new service placed on a pole with a breaker panel so powering large machinery is NBD (and getting power before shop makes building the shop much easier and more convenient).
If you want to run big rods or weld aluminum at high amps appropriate transformer machines are worth having. My old Miller will output 500 amps and the arc is delightful. It was 250 bucks because the seller saw a "three phase" sticker on a box mounted to it. I knew I could run it single phase because I download manuals BEFORE buying. It's the size of a fridge and weighs about 1300 lbs but those downsides only matter when moving it. Tip: A Tommy Gate can be "assisted" by a couple of ag jacks when (not grossly) overloaded for the popoff valve.
It's easy to accumulate used industrial welders with some looking. I have lighter machines too because covering all bases pays off.
All great thoughts, thanks for sharing 😃. I definitely like the way most of the older machines run. Right now I am doing some repair work for a shop on some heavy plate (1/2 to 3/4). I am using their miller goldstar 400 to both arc gouge and stick weld. It’s amazing how smooth the machine is, and how I can go from running a 1/4inch carbon rod to a 3/32 7018 with the machine making it seem effortless.
Great tip on the reading the manual/knowing the machine for 3 vs single phase. Years ago I scored an ideal arc Lincoln for a 100$ because the owner thought it was 3 phase only (it was wired for 3phase). I knew it could be easily rewired for single, which is exactly what I did lol.
in uk 240/415 volt mains 50volt ac oil cooled transformer welding sets brandcalled oxford etc one most common type welding sets from late 30/s/40/s untill80s/90/s
Another advantage of smaller modern welder is that instead of letting it in the shop and having 100' of expensive welding cable, long extension cord are smaller gage. And you can have the welder with you so it can be easier to adjust amperage if you need to.
Definitely. That’s why I push the smaller form factor welders so much, especially the ones with power factor correction. The power output they have (even on 120) and the portability is unmatched.
I just welded a truck frame and the gap is less than perfect, I was very happy to have the amperage dial on hand rather than creeping out of this hard to get position! And after welding at 110-120 amps for 1 hour the machine was barely warm..
By the way awesome video you did!
I bought a titanium 140 stick, mig, tig 120v and tried flux wire .030 and got very good penetration.
Flux core wire produces really good penetration. The only downside to it is that on material thicker than 1/4inch self shielded flux core wire (smaller than .045) will have a tendency to produce porosity in the welds. This has to do with how gas gets trapped in the solidifying weld. The only way to fix this is to run bigger wire with much higher heat input. For most things 1/4in and down flux core works really well.
Oh boy Greg. I just subscribed, you're gonna take off if you keep up the neat videos
Since welding and the workshop is what I do for fun, it’s nice to be able to share that with other people and hopefully inspire people to pickup tools themselves. I am pretty fortunate to be able to have a lot of nice tools and the ability to test things. I am hoping in the next year or so that I can find a new building to buy and start a full time shop. Time will tell.
I bought the cheapest Amazon fcaw welder I could find with the intentions of using it only for a single project. I have to tell you that 2 years later I've ran about 10 lb of 035 through it and cannot believe how impressive a Chinesium knock off welder could be for $70. Even if I had to replace this every 6 or 12 months, it's worth it! It's tiny and convenient and I can run it off my solar power to inverter.
It’s always a nice surprise when something lasts longer than expected 😀
A question on the two for wire sizes, the old buz boxes had the american size and china uses metric which is roughly a tad larger. Could these make a difference on how the new one's work. Im following you on this post. Sorry for my goofy questions
So buzz boxes are almost as simple as it’s possible to make a a/c welder. You have a simple transformer with fixed wiring. The dial on the front just controls the secondary transformer “tap”. Or in simple words how much of the windings of wires are utilized. Because this is completely fixed with no electronics or moving parts there is very little that will change how a buzz box welds. Cable size can play a role. If the output cable is smaller than it should be (or made of cheaper material), the voltage could drop. The drop in voltage along with current restriction of the wire will produce a different running rod.
Another thing to consider with buzz boxes is construction. Older ones were straight copper, the newer ones are often aluminum wire. Because you’re running a fixed transformer tap, an old machine at 90a might actually be 90a and a newer one might be 85. That’s enough to notice without a doubt. Another sort of weird product of their design is they don’t really regulate amperage or compensate for input power. If the input voltage is 225v or say 245v (which is within the normal range of 240v from the power company) you will have differing outputs. So something as simple as the input powers average voltage will affect the output current.
If you have noticed differences in how one buzz box runs compared to another the above things are likely why.
I have a very old lincoln 225 arc welder, when i turn it on theres times when i have to give it a smack on the side to get it going full. Im wondering since the farmer i hot it from it was kept in the corn bin. When I got it there wasn't anything wrong. Im thinking it might have been from less usage. I'm keeping it for memories. I picked up a harbor freight 140 on 120v. I really enjoy your posts.
If it doesn’t quite hit higher output it likely dirty contractor on the switch (if it has a switch to adjust amperage). Most older machine are so simple there isn’t much that can go wrong. It’s amazing how long they will last and still work.
I like old welders so I would have to take old blue, I have a Lincoln 225 thoomstone I would like to have dc but stuck with ac been running for 31 years it has done me well for a home welder .
You can just convert it to dc. This simplify the explanation you just would add a full bridge rectifier, but there are tons of TH-cam videos that show how easy it is to make the conversion, with the affordability and this small time requirement there's really no reason to not do it
Duskorn is right, it’s fairly easy to setup that tombstone to weld on dc with pretty cheap parts. Definitely within the realm of possibilities 😀
Great instructional video
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it 😀
Notice the inductor has an air gap between the I and E parts of the core. This prevents core saturation at higher currents.
Good eye. The amount of engineering that went into to it is pretty cool even though it’s relatively simple tech. Making the best of what you have 😀
Excellent video - incidentally EMF electromotive force is electrical pressure or what we now call voltage. That is why ohms law is e = ir
Thanks, glad you liked it 😀. It was fun to make and the results were quite interesting to me. It’s pretty crazy to think how power hungry the old dial arc is, 600w at idle and almost double the actual consumption under load. Definitely unexpected lol.
Thanks, a very interesting comparison. When houses or commercial premises were mainly fitted with fluorescent lights, those lights had power factor correction capacitors on board to compensate for the reactance of the choke. Electricity utilities charge for the total power, which includes reactive power. Therefore where much of the load is reactive, as it would be in fluorescent lighting installations without capacitors, the capacitors, as a result of improving the PF, lower the electricity bills.
Great content sir.
Most of my transformer machines just had taps into the output side of the transformer so you can select how many coils are active, seems far more simple and adjustable than those methods. I will say that as well as the inductor/choke on the the output it's very common to have a capacitor bank on the output too.
So the tap method works but it gives far less fine tuning adjustability. The tombstone welders traditionally had multiple amperage taps but most were centered around 90-130amps. Many dial arc and ideal arc machines were used for tig or required different volt/amp curves for different rods, so they really benefited by having far more adjustability. No doubt it’s far more complex, and in many cases isn’t necessarily a huge benefit.
A capacitor bank would also work just like you said, i believe they started going to that over the big copper mass inductor in more than a few of the transformer machines. I wonder if the capacitors would be more effective. I bet they would be more efficient.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg I believe some did just because the copper inductors were getting expensive (same machines you see with aluminium transformers) - but my old Cimes unit here has both inductors and capacitors on the output. I believe it's to give some semblance of hot start as well as smoothing the output.
On my dialarc hf ive replaced the on off switch twice. Lost ac on it until i blew it out very well. The last switch was 177 dollars. It used to set in a very damp and dusty area. Has been a very tough machine.
No doubt they will survive a long time. I like the design far better than the Lincoln ideal arcs. Far easier to adjust amperage, and somehow slightly lighter. Not saying much since the dial arc weighs around 300lbs 😅
Excellent video,, I learn so much from your content. Do have to ask though, what is it about stick welding that we all love and can't seem to stop watching? Nostalgia? I dunno, just love it. Thanks for all the teaching, you are a great educator.
I think nostalgia might be it. Although I like tig welding the most, it’s not as satisfying as stick welding. To me stick welding reminds me of my father making it look easy welding steel with a buzz box and 6013. When later that night I went into the garage to try what he did, and I spent 3 hours sticking rods to scrap steel with zero progress lol.
While AC has 60 cycles per second, the Full Bridge Rectifier provides 120 cycles per second. The negative pulse portion is just flipped to the upper + side.
Just bought an old miller syncrowave, tig/stick vlicked b/c i thought the nachine eas one of those. :)
Other than being power hungry those old syncrowaves are smooth machines.
The reason why that choke coil on the new welder is so tiny is because high frequency signals are really easy to filter out. Also I'm going to say 90% those capacitors are for flattening out the bridge rectifier on the incoming 240v so the IGBT gets nice clean DC. What's really clever about the IGBT concept is by controlling the pulse width of the generated AC signal you can make a dirt simple transformer do so many tricks that are just impossible when you're dealing with 60hz and you have nothing but copper coils to work with.
Thanks for your thoughts on that. Being that I have minimal electrical background I appreciate all the tips and thoughts people leave. It definitely is very cool what can be accomplished with a simple transformer when you can manipulate the Ac going into it. Especially from a simple efficiency and physical size standpoint.
Hey thanks, I'm not that much of an expert, in fact your explanation of power factor is what finally made it click for me. Your video got me thinking, you could probably build an efficient "low tech" welder using a DC generator, The Zach Life channel recently went over a 1940s (I believe) Lincoln which had a physical generator on it, neat design.
12:00 electromotive force is the same as voltage. It’s the reason Ohms’s law is generally written as E=I*R. I’m guessing the shunt is a tap on the secondary.
There’s an Airco-branded equivalent of the Dialarc, called a “bumblebee…”
I’ve used one a few times. They run 6011s really good, and the same for 7018-AC (the 7018s you can find at, say, Löwes.)
I have seen those for sale occasionally. I am not exactly sure on what the partnership with miller was, but it’s very common to see orange painted machines that are similar to all the millers of the same vintage. Many times they had a few extra features over the millers equivalent.
Be aware most envert welders require a clean pure sine wave power supply. Plugging them in to a cheap non invert modified sine wave generator can easily burn up the electronics inside a IGBT invert welder. I have a really nice Everlast 221stI and it says never run it on a dirty power source from a gen set. It voids the warranty. So People looking to power a welder off a generator need to be aware the generator they need for a invert welder can be upto 3 times more expensive. That said I have welded over 30 plus years and I am never going to give up my everlast. It is such a great machine and it welds so very smooth.
You are correct, and bring up a excellent point. When I finally finish my generator/welder video that’s something I definitely touch on. I run my machines on a generator, but it is a pure sine wave inverter. That is the only way to get long longevity out of most modern welders. The dirty power of most generators (especially cheap ones) will cause welder failures in a hurry no doubt.
Hi, I am from The Netherlands and i have the transformer version its 4.5 kVA 220/380V did buy it ,new, in 1975 to weld a central heating system in a 2000 m3 (500 acres) glasshouse. It's a great, both ways, machine to use especially if you want/need to weld for many hours at a time (300 A continuos allowed). If i needed , more ocasionally, welding outside the garage than i whould buy a small one for sure.
BTW i'm a not a profession welder, my day to day work is electronics and ,industrial, computer programming.
Now i use it seldome as i have nearly never have to weld a thing. 🙄
Welcome, and it’s awesome to be able to hear from people all over the world 😀. If you need a lot of output and reliability it is hard to beat the old transformer machines 😀
Wonder what the efficiency of an AC 225 lincoln tombstone would be?
So the tombstone is a much simpler design because it’s 240v only and has one amperage range. So it omits the input transformer the dial arc has, and from what I remember it also has only one transformer. Since most are A/C only there is no loss in a bridge rectifier or in the output reactor. My guess is it would be in the area of 60% or so. They still suffer from poor power factor as well, they generally require 50a breakers to get above 180amps output.
I really like my Dialarc HF, picked it up for $450
For a shop welder they work great. They definitely weld smooth and start a rod really nice. I definitely will keep the one I have for a long time and use it from time to time.
Some new cheap dc inverter machines only let u trim volts and select plate thickness (synergic control). If ur stick welding it displays amps drawn while ur welding only
Yep, I have noticed that trend. It’s real unfortunate that they work like that because there is no way to fine tune anything.
I got a scratch tig kit and bottle for my 150A Kemppi stick welder. Have you ever messed around with that kind of stuff?
I have done a bunch of scratch start. It welds just like lift arc with a harder start. What I used to do with that setup is use my filler rod and quickly strike it between the tungsten and the work piece. It would often start the arc and not contaminate the tungsten like is common by scratching it like a rod.
Sweet. It'll try that. Thanks mate. I made a kill-switch from a 200A relay, so I can kill the arc but keep nuzzle in place not to lose the gas flow. Works decent. Still trying to learn. Tricky but fun ^^
Does CAD stands for can adam draw?
Sorry could not hhelp my self
It is "Cardboard Assisted Design"... 😂 (whi h I use very often...)
Is that a Lazer pointer dot right above 3rd transformer right as your pointing at top diagram at around 18:20
Can I use a hair crimper for wiring or side paneling?
The large breaker these transformers require is due to the inrush current inherent to inductive loads like transformers and motors. Once the initial spike passes, no more than 1/60 of a second, it settles down to a current more in line with what you'd expect from the turns ratio. It's not pulling 90 amps continuously at full output, but only for the first AC cycle after turning on. With that being said, laminated iron transformer cores are much less efficient than an inverter. Part of this difference in efficiency comes from the typical use of a toroidal transformer core in the inverter machines. Iron powder toroid cores are significantly more efficient than laminated E/I iron cores at transferring power from one winding to the other.
Based on omitting power factor, 90a output requires 17amps consumption. If it has the same efficiency at higher outputs that puts its consumption at 34a at 180 and 51a at 270a output. Due to the large amount of reactive power it spits back into the input line, the input wire could easily see 70-80a load on it while welding maxed out. There is inrush however a normal breaker can handle a 2x breaker rating for 3-10 seconds without tripping. The power factor corrected version helps improve the power factor of the machine Inorder to limit the input line loading, this version can run on significantly less breaker rating and wire size.
Basically it’s not that the machine actually consumes 33a as measured on the input side at 90a out, it’s that the reactive power it’s pushing back on the line requires a much bigger breaker and power wires to handle the current. The current is real, it exists, it just does no useful work. In the previous video where I ran the dial arc for a couple welds, it was successful in welding about 1 inch with a 1/8th 7018 at 120 amps before it tripped a 30a breaker. The initial inrush during power up, striking of the arc, and welding didn’t trip the magnetic trip of the breaker. However the thermal trip caused the breaker to trip over time because the breaker saw a 37a load on the wire.
Based on what I saw it would be impossible to weld half a rod with the dial arc on a 50a breaker at anything above 230a. To hit 265 maxed out you would need a 70a breaker at a minimum or it will thermal trip. A 80-90a breaker would allow a person to weld nonstop for minutes at a time without a thermal trip.
If I missed it I apologize, but, did you mention duty cycle of the machines? Units like the ideal arc can weld all day non stop depending on out put requirements. I don't see those little units welding on a pipe line or other large projects. Good for home shop, very lite duty use.
I briefly mentioned it but you’re right. The dial arc can output 200+ amps practically all day, the titanium wouldn’t that’s for sure. A modern equivalent of the dial arc, such as a maxstar 350 or 300-350 amp inverter would likely be 30% more efficient and if it had power factor correction it would be possible to hit 350a of output on a 50a 240 breaker. That’s pretty ludicrous amount of output in comparison lol.
That little shoebox won't but a larger equivalent inverter machine(still smaller than the dinosaur) will keep up. He specifically mentioned several times the machines in the video are not equivalent in spec they're just what he had on hand to show the difference in tech. He even mentioned one close to the same spec as the dinosaur would be about 2x the size of the shoebox. I mean you say you may have missed it but it's almost like you missed half the video.
I if you do get a hold of those older machines, some are taken from big companies which have power factor correction systems , will draw near full amps at idle
So I need to do some investigation into that issue. I have read exactly what you said on forms, with typical input loadings of 20-30a at “idle”, and it’s probably correct. However not in the way it’s looked at on face value. Here is the thing, the welder itself can’t draw more power than it consumes at idle. Right now it consumes 600 watts at idle without a PFC capacitor. Putting a large capacitor on the input can’t cause the welder itself to draw more power than it consumes. The capacitor isn’t going to draw and consume 15-25 amps on it own, that’s not how they work. What is likely happening is the PFC capacitor is causing the input line to be loaded with reactive current at idle. As the welder is put under load the reactive current lowers and the input loading lessens. Basically the loading on the input wire at say 120a output may measure the same as 160a. It’s not that the input power measured is wrong, it might be higher than a non PFC unit due to reactive power. However it would likely load the input line to less amperage at all levels above the lowest output levels. A simple capacitor setup will only make the power factor significantly better at specific outputs, likely under higher amperage. For a shop that gets fined for poor power factor by the power company, the capacitor would be worth it. For a home gamer that doesn’t pay for reactive power at lower outputs there would be little to gain, it won’t use less electricity that you pay for. It would give the ability to run the machine on significantly less wire size and breaker rating though.
had customer bring in for different problem (fixed problem) but told him i couldnt put plug back because had gotten hot and was melted (dryer plug)
measured and was drawing 60 amps at idle . was a miller syncrowave and had power factor correcting installed. ask him how long he had had he said about ten years . and said he has replaced aboutmay have
@@makingmistakeswithgreg
Have you ever worked with the old vertical lincoln torpedos? There was a small discussion on the Garage Journal forum about them, and I guess they were very smooth to run.
So those torpedos are quite a unique welder because they function completely different than any transformer machine. Essentially what many of them are is a 3phase electric motor hooked to a DC generator, and they function much like an engine drive generator welder of years past. Many of the engine drive generators were well known for how good the arc was, and that had to do with the fact they used a “reactor” on a pure DC output, which in simple terms the clearness of the DC was unmatched. With transformer welders they used A/c and rectified it to DC, which was never as smooth DC (even with a reactor to clean it up) as a straight dc generator. You could also do interesting things like control the voltage/amp curves of the machines to match the rod size/type you’re running. The dial arc does this by having essentially two different transformers with different volt/amp curves. Many of those torpedos had 4 to 7 curves to pick from so you could really tailor the arc to what you were welding. The main downsides to torpedos is most had 3phase motors, they typically were loud when running (since it’s a literal electric motor spinning anytime it’s on), and they would take more skill to tune due to having multiple volt/amp curves vs just a dial. I bet the efficiency of them would be slightly better than a dial arc.
Hi Greg, very well done video, as usual. I have two 3/ph motor-generator welders, my Lincoln SAE 300 and my GE 400. Both work great and are fairly easy to set-up. The SAE 300 has the sweetest pure DC arc I have encountered, and I have used many welders in my 60 years of welding. My favorite welder is my Airco 300 MTS Inverter which I bought new 32 years ago. The meter claims I have 3300 + hours of arc time and well over 90,000 hours of on-time. In 32 years I have repaired this machine one time, a switch failed about 20 years ago, the repair was less than 100$. I paid about $3500 for the Airco in 1992 so it was never a bargain basement machine, but it indicates inverter based welders can last for some time.@@makingmistakeswithgreg
Yeah transformer based are rock solid, though top of the class invertors can be very reliable-they can last decades, IGBT devices have improved-which is usually the first thing to go short circuit.
The need for small PSU's in consumer products has driven the advances in SMPS's and the components, resulting in better welder invertor designs, without the high volume consumer switch mode designs, its doubtful we would have the welders we have today.
We also have pulsed stick welding features now, which was never possible with these old types.
Wonder why the old welders didnt use the more efficient Toroidal design, maybe cost? (using large Ferrites).
That’s a great question on the toroidal power supplies. In the case of the big dial arc I think it’s more conventional design worked better because it allowed them to use multiple winding ratios on the same core by switching which side of the core is used. That would be tough to do with a toroidal design (maybe it would be possible?). For simpler welders I am not sure why they weren’t used, especially in more modern machines.
Hello Greg, great vid yet again. I live off grid and would like to request a vid content. Can you do a short video on dirty power vs clean power and what we can get away with and what not to do with regards to new generator/ old welder / new welder/ old generator and how they should be used to play well with one another? Just things to look for and look out for when selecting a combo. Or… just forget the request and I strictly use my new gen with the new welder and the old gen with the old welder.. ? Don’t be afraid to use the chalkboard we don’t expect you to buy stuff to make your excellent points understood👍🙏👋 freezer’
So I have shot a welder-generator video, and edited it twice. Then I found out more information and wasn’t happy with the video lol. So this week I am shooting it and it will be out shortly. It’s only been 6months since I said I would do it but it will happen this time. 😀
The worst thing about an inverter welder is that one day you will go to use it and it won’t work, worked great last time you used it but it’s broken now and you have no idea why. There’s about a thousand components in it, they all look fine but now you have a $1500 box of junk.
I see the cost as a moot point, if you weld a fair amount the electricity savings in over 3-4 years would probably pay for the inverter welder. Take for example the dial arc vs esab. The dial arc costs 300-400$ used. You can buy a new inverter welder capable of 200amps stick for 300 to 1k (esab is 1k) The dial arc for my use would cost me between 200-300$ more electricity in a year. Just idling the dial arc eats 600 watts, which is not out of line with min at transformer welders. Within 3-4 years the electrical savings alone paid for the price difference. Most new welders that are decent have a 3-5 year warranty, so I will still have a functioning welder at that point. It’s always best to have multiple welders vs one, so even if a new one went down I have a backup while it’s getting fixed. The transformer welders are reliable but most don’t have things like arc force, hot start, and the controls inverters have. They are also extremely big/heavy and require a ton of power. For a shop welder it pays to have one transformer machine, but they are losing out to inverters every day that passes.
@@makingmistakeswithgregDon’t get me wrong, I’m not saying you are wrong but you better have an old transformer machine to use while you’re waiting for a new inverter machine you just ordered to come in because your current one just died. Because it will die. Hopefully later rather than sooner. I have a Everlast 210ext for tig welding and use it maybe 5 times a year. Had it 5 years and it will cut out immediately after striking an arc now. Some kind of sensor issue I imagine but with all the circuitry in there it’s not for the faint of heart to try a repair, so do you spend $500 on an old transformer machine, $500 on a new Harbor Freight one, $1500 on a new Everlast, AHP, etc. or $2000 on a new Miller inverter (entry with zero settings) or anywhere in between that and $3000 for a nicer new Miller with settings? Once you do, will you get 5 years out of it. I don’t know. I agree with you but the $500 transformer Miller Syncrowave 300 with HF start and pulse settings in my area is looking very nice right now. 😊
Nice job🤛🏻
Thanks Greg-
No problem 😀
I think you might have it backwards on Miller vs. Lincoln and shunts... Miller (Hobart) use a shunted transformer, where Lincoln uses a tapped transformer... at least on the 'buzzbox' welders.
Also, with the new "Smart" power meters, the power company now charges you for everything... Apparent power and Real Power. Yup, you're paying for it.
The buzz box welders indeed use multiple taps on the transformer to achieve multiple outputs. Lincoln’s ideal arc (up until atleast the 80s) used a shunt that would be inserted in to main transformer to change the magnetic field. This is why they have a big heavy to turn knob in the front and a gear reduction on it that goes to a shunt. The ideal arc (main competition to the dial arc) never used millers setup that I am aware of. The dial arc is much more pleasent to use lol.
As far as the meter goes the local power company can indeed monitor power factor, however I was told by the power company that they don’t charge residential customers for reactive power. I know this is not the same everywhere, I am unsure as to how common this is. I haven’t paid an electric bill in over a year so I can’t even inspect a bill to see if any details are given on it regarding this.
I think do not know for sure a Lincoln 225 tombstone on #4 wire with 50 amp breaker 20%dutycycle
Hi Greg.
Thanks for this video. It clarified a lot of my electrical doubts about welders.
Could you please share the model of the "super nice thing" you used to measure the electrical consumption?
Maybe I will buy one for me to play with.
Until the next video, stay happy!
Sart0
That device is a power factor and wattage meter available here www.amazon.com/Current-Amperage-Voltmeter-Multimeter-Transformer/dp/B07JB9B2QL/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?crid=EL7EUIAV37T3&keywords=current+meter+power+factor&qid=1707730547&sprefix=current+meter+power+factor%2Caps%2C99&sr=8-2
Because it calculates actual wattage consumed and amp loading on the input, it’s very accurate. I have also checked it with a ton of instruments and it’s pretty accurate overall, definitely for non laboratory testing 😀
thanks a lot @@makingmistakeswithgreg
Inductors resist changes in current, capacitors resist changes in voltage, not the other way around
Great info
Miller , Lincoln etc make you pay dearly for their names. I am shocked to discover just the 2 alphabet AC which I need to weld aluminum basically doubled the price. I likely be forced to buy a Chinese welder later , like Everlast.
Everlast is pretty solid. The main limitation they have is fit/finish, and their software. Their simpler welders are really good. Their lightining series software is a bit rough. The thing I appreciate about everlast is they don’t lie about capabilities or specs. They have proven to be reliable. They also weld very good generally speaking.
Thank you
You do pay for reactive power. Whether it is true power or reactive power you will have it showing through your meter on house as consumed power. At least I think that’s the way I see it. Will cost you much more to run buzz box.
It’s completely based on the meter you have and the local power company. A residence doesn’t typically have the reactive power an industrial shop has, so in many cases they simply aren’t charged for it. Outside of a big welder there is very little in a normal house that would be anywhere near something like a dial arc 250. Most electrical meters function much like the device I used to measure the welder, they calculate consumed wattage and a bunch of other things. A houses power factor is generally far better than say a factory, and those can be penalized due to poor power factor because they could literally have thousands of amps of reactive power going back to the grid. In my case I am not charged for a poor power factor when tied to the grid via a house meter.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Thankyou for the info. I was told you pay for all power. It is good to know about it all. Really enjoyed your explaining of welders. I learned a lot Thanks
You have current transformer its like
choke for high amperage current on another winding you bring oposite phase voltage from reostat, if no regulation voltage you have maximum current when you bring maksimum current choke have high resistance so welding current is small
Basicly you have main transformer,( give you welding current, and 30V controll voltage separate windings) current transformer look like multiple windings nd switch hi lo ampers(variable choke) reostat.
It can be easy upgrade adding Thyristor regulation and additional electronic for fine current controll. More advance than magnetic shunt. You use low electric current to controll welding current.
Really advance idea.
Thanks to Miller companny for idea.
I will be buy old school magnetic shunt machine it is only 30€ in EU nobody like them, and upgrade like Miller dialer.
Great!
Very good run down on power factor and power consumption. I was awhere of efficent welders but did not know about power factors. When I bought my welders as looked for the ones that had low full amp draws at max welding amps due to my 40 amp breaker.
All mine draw less then 30 amps. My 2 Fronius welders on 240v draw 28 amps at max amps welding. They never blow a breaker.
In fact at most welding amps 90 to 130 amps, the fan never comes on. Now that is efficient. So now I know they must have a better power factor not that you made this video.
Fronius has power factor correction on most of their welders (especially their small ones) so they have amazing power output without issues of tripping breakers. It’s pretty amazing how much output you can get when you have a super efficient welder and power factor correction. You can get useable power on 120v and huge power on 240v.
I always look at duty rating.