I hear you on the "investment" aspect of signaling. Nothing about the unmentionables are easy. While I have been struggling to get signaling installed on my layout with Digitrax components, I've been frustrated by the "lack" of success with the so-called plug and play beleaf I bought into. I'm wishing for the "Signaling for Dummies" to be released! Model railroading is supposed to be fun, and the "f" in fun has shifted to frustrating. Appreciate you and look forward to seeing what you figure out. Regards
I enjoyed watching your layout with a little bit of the UK when you were in Seattle. I enjoyed watching you do this even more. Don't forget your rule number one and that's all you need to answer to. I worked as a brakeman for the SP in the early '70s. We worked by train order. Not signals. Signals at that time were blocked detection. The railroad started putting in more CTC after I left. You can figure your running your railroad more the way I did when I was working. A lot of computerization is done today, because time is money and profit. You can't stop a train. You watch the BNSF and you can see that they have double tracked what seems like everywhere they go. Not much worry on signaling other than again block detection. Because most of the time the railroad has designated traffic lanes when they do that. Love your railroad.. too bad so many people talk about what they would do when they're trying to live the dream through you. Your dream is your dream. Have a great holiday. And thank you!
Thanks, Michael! I still do a little UK modelling, so I'll share the OO gauge diesel maintenance facility that I'm building for you at some point! Great point on train orders. I think I'll end up with a balance - I won't necessarily create the papers / cards for the engineer to have when operating a train, but take that kind of approach. The engineer is in control, and for the most there's not going to be 6-8 different operators and trains running where you need to keep track of things more. So long as I have some amount of signals to add a little operational interest, I'll be happy. And thanks for the kind words on the layout in general. I'm trying my best to share, especially for those not in the same position to have this kind of space to build their dream. Iain
I’m also interested in installing signals but I don’t know much about signaling. I didn’t see where anyone suggested you take a look at the RR Circuits logic products. It was recommended to me to consider RR Circuits. Thank you for making the video and I will be watching the full series.
Thanks for the suggestion. I did look at RR Circuits as it's an intriguing option, but seemed almost like you're swapping programming logic on JMRI to programming logic on the board. Not that that's bad or wrong, but I'm hoping to find something that's a little more plug and play. There also isn't a lot of clear pricing and purchasing information on their website, which gives me a little pause for future availability and support. Iain
"just going down to the basement to get some exercise in, honey" 🙂 But yes - I want to be able to control the layout for the most part. Follow the trains around and throw the turnouts as needed, etc. Iain
Very cool video, I'm collecting Locomotives and freight cars for a mid 80s N Scale Conrail layout in a 15x10 basement area, Conrail thru Indiana used the target style signals left over from the NYC and some from the Pennsy!! Thanks for the video, I'm curious to see what works better for you!!! 👍👍👍👍👍👍
That sounds like it will be a great layout! Have fun building your collection of locos and rolling stock. I'm slowly working through things and recording video, so more to come soon. Iain
I used the system from Azatraz on 2 double crossovers. Worked great. It used time delay instead of actual block detection. Since I already had block detection I coverted to DS74E. Each DS74E controls 2 sidings for all six signals that are required. 2 double head and 4 single head signals. No need for photo cells under or along side of tracks. I like the realism and with i just run trains by myself I control everything from my phone or prodcast on tablet a functional CTC machine using a webserver. Was $20 dollars more then the Azatraz product. JMRI is free.
Sounds like a great approach. I looked at the SE74 but didn't want to have to program all the logic into JMRI. What does the DS74E offer, don't you still have to configure JMRI with the different heads and logic for when a turnout is thrown? How does that scale? My aversion to using JMRI is that I'll have somewhere in the region of 120 turnouts, not all of which will require signaling, but I simply don't want to spend the money on the solutions I've found so far that then still require me to configure all those signals in JMRI anyway. Iain
It sound like that what you’re looking for is something between the products you show and JMRI. I’m also not interested in JMRI and am pleased with what can be done with Arduino - yes it involves some (basic) coding but it can be minimized if for example you use an Arduino Nano for each turnout you could have the same code do both signals (based on turnout position) and next block occupancy for all your turnouts. I think the challenge is how to detect block occupancy reliably - I suspect the timer approach may be lacking in the long-term. I’ve found that each block has different electrical characteristics which means you need to “tune” the threshold for each block, which makes the software more complicated . Various manufacturers have different block occupancy detection products, but buying one for each of the blocks can become cost prohibitive. If you don’t want to code it yourself you could probably outsource it online (I have no idea if that would be affordable)
Thanks for the comments. Yes - I feel like ultimately there's not going to be quite what I want commercially, at least not something cost effective that I can scale to. I've done a bunch with Arduinos, and at least that's one where after I've figured out the logic and code, it's largely just the uploading the same thing to board after board. I'm okay with that. I still want to explore some of these commercial offerings so that I know what works and doesn't work, and explore the different approaches so that if I end up creating a custom board, I've been able to at least make sure it does what I want. More to come soon. I'll document if I go the route of creating a custom board, too. Thanks for following along. Iain
I recommend you look into what the prototype calls, ABS, Automatic Block Signal. The dispatcher does not control any lights. The lights are only there to advise the train crew what the conditions of the block are. Red, yellow, green. The red lights are permissive, meaning you can pass at restricted speed.
Yep, I know what it is, and have worked on ABS at 1/8th scale . Usually requires the layout in blocks, which I also discussed in the video as somewhat future proofing myself in having done already. Getting those signals working through available commercial offerings without being cost prohibitive is the challenge though, and focus of exploration in this upcoming series. Also, isn't the "red is permissive" based on the railroad and specific section of track? I don't think it's universally accepted as red being "pass at restricted speed"? Thanks for watching. Iain
@@gncascadedivision if the signal has a number plate, it is permissive. A signal without an number plate is an Absolute. To pass a red signal stop signal at a Absolute, you must have authority from the control operator or train dispatcher. Atlas's signal system is a very basic ABS set up that does not require a lot of work.
Thanks for the extra background. That all makes sense. The Atlas system looks neat, I checked out what they had at Trainfest and grabbed one of their ~16 or so page booklet. It's again one of those where scaling up to the size / amount I need is where the Atlas system gets too far away from being viable. I'm not even bothering to try it out for this initial exploration.
I hear you on the "investment" aspect of signaling. Nothing about the unmentionables are easy. While I have been struggling to get signaling installed on my layout with Digitrax components, I've been frustrated by the "lack" of success with the so-called plug and play beleaf I bought into. I'm wishing for the "Signaling for Dummies" to be released! Model railroading is supposed to be fun, and the "f" in fun has shifted to frustrating. Appreciate you and look forward to seeing what you figure out. Regards
I enjoyed watching your layout with a little bit of the UK when you were in Seattle. I enjoyed watching you do this even more. Don't forget your rule number one and that's all you need to answer to. I worked as a brakeman for the SP in the early '70s. We worked by train order. Not signals. Signals at that time were blocked detection. The railroad started putting in more CTC after I left. You can figure your running your railroad more the way I did when I was working. A lot of computerization is done today, because time is money and profit. You can't stop a train. You watch the BNSF and you can see that they have double tracked what seems like everywhere they go. Not much worry on signaling other than again block detection. Because most of the time the railroad has designated traffic lanes when they do that. Love your railroad.. too bad so many people talk about what they would do when they're trying to live the dream through you. Your dream is your dream. Have a great holiday. And thank you!
Thanks, Michael! I still do a little UK modelling, so I'll share the OO gauge diesel maintenance facility that I'm building for you at some point!
Great point on train orders. I think I'll end up with a balance - I won't necessarily create the papers / cards for the engineer to have when operating a train, but take that kind of approach. The engineer is in control, and for the most there's not going to be 6-8 different operators and trains running where you need to keep track of things more. So long as I have some amount of signals to add a little operational interest, I'll be happy.
And thanks for the kind words on the layout in general. I'm trying my best to share, especially for those not in the same position to have this kind of space to build their dream. Iain
I’m also interested in installing signals but I don’t know much about signaling. I didn’t see where anyone suggested you take a look at the RR Circuits logic products. It was recommended to me to consider RR Circuits. Thank you for making the video and I will be watching the full series.
Thanks for the suggestion. I did look at RR Circuits as it's an intriguing option, but seemed almost like you're swapping programming logic on JMRI to programming logic on the board. Not that that's bad or wrong, but I'm hoping to find something that's a little more plug and play. There also isn't a lot of clear pricing and purchasing information on their website, which gives me a little pause for future availability and support. Iain
The Hobby is expensive in it's self Im like you I love controling my layout if I have to run around then I get my exercise * Happy Rails *
"just going down to the basement to get some exercise in, honey" 🙂
But yes - I want to be able to control the layout for the most part. Follow the trains around and throw the turnouts as needed, etc. Iain
Very cool video, I'm collecting
Locomotives and freight cars
for a mid 80s N Scale Conrail layout in a 15x10 basement
area, Conrail thru Indiana used
the target style signals left over from the NYC and some
from the Pennsy!! Thanks for
the video, I'm curious to see
what works better for you!!!
👍👍👍👍👍👍
That sounds like it will be a great layout! Have fun building your collection of locos and rolling stock.
I'm slowly working through things and recording video, so more to come soon. Iain
@@gncascadedivision awesome!!!
I used the system from Azatraz on 2 double crossovers. Worked great. It used time delay instead of actual block detection. Since I already had block detection I coverted to DS74E. Each DS74E controls 2 sidings for all six signals that are required. 2 double head and 4 single head signals. No need for photo cells under or along side of tracks. I like the realism and with i just run trains by myself I control everything from my phone or prodcast on tablet a functional CTC machine using a webserver. Was $20 dollars more then the Azatraz product. JMRI is free.
Sounds like a great approach. I looked at the SE74 but didn't want to have to program all the logic into JMRI. What does the DS74E offer, don't you still have to configure JMRI with the different heads and logic for when a turnout is thrown? How does that scale?
My aversion to using JMRI is that I'll have somewhere in the region of 120 turnouts, not all of which will require signaling, but I simply don't want to spend the money on the solutions I've found so far that then still require me to configure all those signals in JMRI anyway. Iain
It sound like that what you’re looking for is something between the products you show and JMRI.
I’m also not interested in JMRI and am pleased with what can be done with Arduino - yes it involves some (basic) coding but it can be minimized if for example you use an Arduino Nano for each turnout you could have the same code do both signals (based on turnout position) and next block occupancy for all your turnouts.
I think the challenge is how to detect block occupancy reliably - I suspect the timer approach may be lacking in the long-term. I’ve found that each block has different electrical characteristics which means you need to “tune” the threshold for each block, which makes the software more complicated . Various manufacturers have different block occupancy detection products, but buying one for each of the blocks can become cost prohibitive.
If you don’t want to code it yourself you could probably outsource it online (I have no idea if that would be affordable)
Thanks for the comments. Yes - I feel like ultimately there's not going to be quite what I want commercially, at least not something cost effective that I can scale to. I've done a bunch with Arduinos, and at least that's one where after I've figured out the logic and code, it's largely just the uploading the same thing to board after board. I'm okay with that.
I still want to explore some of these commercial offerings so that I know what works and doesn't work, and explore the different approaches so that if I end up creating a custom board, I've been able to at least make sure it does what I want.
More to come soon. I'll document if I go the route of creating a custom board, too. Thanks for following along. Iain
th-cam.com/users/shorts_zqBIMFyqfU?si=Gx5Di7NJfzvz-5rZ
Just saw this. Thought maybe??
I recommend you look into what the prototype calls, ABS, Automatic Block Signal. The dispatcher does not control any lights. The lights are only there to advise the train crew what the conditions of the block are. Red, yellow, green. The red lights are permissive, meaning you can pass at restricted speed.
Yep, I know what it is, and have worked on ABS at 1/8th scale . Usually requires the layout in blocks, which I also discussed in the video as somewhat future proofing myself in having done already. Getting those signals working through available commercial offerings without being cost prohibitive is the challenge though, and focus of exploration in this upcoming series.
Also, isn't the "red is permissive" based on the railroad and specific section of track? I don't think it's universally accepted as red being "pass at restricted speed"?
Thanks for watching. Iain
@@gncascadedivision if the signal has a number plate, it is permissive. A signal without an number plate is an Absolute. To pass a red signal stop signal at a Absolute, you must have authority from the control operator or train dispatcher. Atlas's signal system is a very basic ABS set up that does not require a lot of work.
Thanks for the extra background. That all makes sense.
The Atlas system looks neat, I checked out what they had at Trainfest and grabbed one of their ~16 or so page booklet. It's again one of those where scaling up to the size / amount I need is where the Atlas system gets too far away from being viable. I'm not even bothering to try it out for this initial exploration.