So far this has been the most straight forward, fair and simple way to price out projects I have come across, thank you for putting this information out there in such an easy-to-understand way.
i try to remember that a 2x6 8ft long is 8 BF. This is a quick way for me at the lumber yard to pick through material. This is not accurate for quoting clients!!
Classic time and materials pricing, I have always done it this way and like you, I eat my mistakes and learn from them. Subscribed and I look forward to seeing where your channel goes.
William Douglas Co. I’m from the UK so it becomes a little trickier because there’s not a lot of standardisation. Some merchants still use British imperial measurements and some use metric and our generic hardware stores use both. And some yards sell buy cubic feet as well so I’m sure you can see the nightmare that some of us deal with. My father and I primarily turn pieces and don’t buy boards as often as most furniture makers do so buying boarded hardwood is something I rarely do, I’m much more interested in a lump of something interesting to stick in the lathe. A rough sawn board for me is about £70 ($90ish) and then I have to pay for delivery to my shed in central London which is another exorbitant cost I can’t avoid.
I live on Oahu , honolulu and search craigs list for Wood working tools every day. Ive been seeing more and more wood working shops folding here and selling off equipment . Its a tough business unless you have talent and are fair and consistent in your products and give the customer Exactly what they want for a fair price. 85 hr is very fair... and your work is phenomenal !!! keep going brother your on the right path.
SA that’s so much! The first time I went to Oahu I tried to find a way to move out there! Never worked out obviously but the last time we went to Hawaii we went to Maui and I couldn’t find a lumber yard anywhere! I found this hardware store and they had a small selection of lumber. I ended buying some mango wood and brought it home in my luggage haha one day it’s going to be a knock box for my espresso machine.
Pretty much. My pricing structure is nearly identical. And I think doing it this way is the easiest way for clients to understand. So when I give them an itemized list for a quote, they don't just speculate I'm trying to take them out to the cleaners. Especially when it's super big projects... Thinking about spending as much for woodwork as you would for a nice lightly used car is a daunting thought. The readable list the way makes people feel more comfortable I think. By the way... I appreciate the fact that you are accurately answering people's questions with experience and wisdom. A lot of people on TH-cam answer with speculation to feel smart lol. Great work. I think your channel will grow quickly. Subscribed.
Mayday's Custom Woodworks thank you so much for the thoughtful comment. I’m the type of person who doesn’t talk unless I know what I’m talking about. I will happily sit quietly and listen to others when I’m not educated on a subject. Woodworking / design / build etc are one of the very few things i will confidently speak my mind about. Otherwise my MO is to find the smartest guy in the room and just ask questions.
This video is clear and helpful. There is an “art” aspect to what you do, but the expectation you set out in the video makes minimum pricing predictable as a maker/business. The other video I saw saying 59,000 had me really confused. This video cleared that up
Really liking what you're putting up guys. Showing a lot of promise and I think what your doing is great. Good, solid content delivered well. All the best!
@@WilliamDouglasCo No worries at all. Credit where credit is due! It's great to see you making the effort to get involved with your community as well as your viewers, and everyone can do with a bit of a laugh. Keep up the good work!
Very informative. Thank You for showing and sharing that you do not have to minimize pricing to those bargain shoppers something that took time to craft and care for. Your delivering quality work to a customer that will appreciate what they are receiving. This gives me the motivation on why I love creating. Thank You
Really glad to hear this is being received well! Quality craftsmanship is something we want to see values more in our community. When did we stop caring about the landfills and wasteful goods? We spend an incredibly large amount of time refining our craft and we should be able to live a descent life on that.
Even more important is how you estimate how many hours it takes you. You can always adjust your hourly rate if you’re finding that the cash flow does not support buying enough new toys, I mean tools, after you pay rent and electricity.
I have only done smaller projects and did them in batch. In that case, I charged a flat fee but knew that if I spent a complete day or two that I wanted to net a certain amount. I divided that amount by the number of items I needed to make at a reasonable price. Thanks for the clear and simple pricing breakdown!
I'm just a hobbiest making stuff in my spare time, but just wanted to say I think everything you said makes perfect sense. Keep up the good work/videos (+1 sub 🤘)
I use your method almost exactly but my hourly rate is a little lower, because that was just a decision I made when I started my business. Simple is a huge benefit to customers as well, especially not marking up materials. Great video!
We have all at one time, myself included, made well below minimum wage on some projects and have even eaten a loss on a couple projects. You live and learn as you said! Great video!
Same way I do it. Unfortunately I'm terrible at estimating my time, because there's always something that comes up, or my closest hardwood dealer has run out of Walnut when I show up, and I've got to go to the other one an hour away. Do you find people scoff at your $85/hour? People usually get sticker shock at my $65/hr but then ultimately come back two weeks later after they've shopped around.
Wm. Walker Co. people scoff at my prices all the time. I know that to cover my overhead and provide for my family I need to make at least $85/ hour. A woodworking shop is very expensive to run even with no employees. Equipment is so expensive and we consume a lot of electricity. I know people who have a shop rate of over $200 and I intend to be there one day.
@@WilliamDouglasCo $200/hr shop rate for woodworking?? I work in aerospace and the shops we deal with making our tooling components are in the $80/hr shop rate. We're talking million dollar CNC equipment. How do you justify $200/hr for wood working?
OU812 I’m not a woodworker. I do woodworking. I am a designer/artist/creator/problem solver. At the end of the day you aren’t paying me to do woodworking. You choose me because you want to be a part of what we are doing. You trust me to execute what we are doing. You don’t come to me to have something built for cheaper than someone els will do it. Same reasons you paid premiums for frank lloyd Wright. Sure, you could have found someone cheaper.. but it wouldn’t be the same.
@@WilliamDouglasCo Yeah I get it but...I design and manufacture custom aircraft engine test equipment for my clients and and we're invloved in high level engineering work and certification. We don't charge anywhere near $200/hr. Nobody in my field does. If I try to do that I'd get laughed at by every single one of my clients. I don't understand what warrants that crazy high rate for building furniture. Sure there's skill and artistry invloved but with all due respect it's not the same as what's required in engineering fields. Hey if your clients are willing to pay that more power to you.
OU812 you’re value is what people will pay for you. This is the whole scientist vs artist argument. Me being on the art side.. we evoke emotion. That goes further then you are giving credit. Think about paintings. Music. Art exhibits. Some things that sell for the most are the most simple to execute. It’s not about complexity or your engineering degree. Engineering doesn’t excite anyone. Let’s be clear.. I DONT charge $200 / hr. I charge $85 / hour and certainly don’t live a lavish life. I am trying to earn a more comfortable life for myself and my family with the effort and dedication I put into my craft. I hope one day to be able to accomplish that.
@@WilliamDouglasCo we charge $2.00/mile and add that to delivery and material cost. My lumber yard is a solid 15 mile drive. Someone north of the city is a good 19 miles away.
What you should charge is what the market will support. Raise your prices until business dries up to the point that overall revenue goes down, then back off a bit. Someone new shows up and undercuts you? Undercut them back and defend your customer base. I'm not a carpenter, but a mechanic. Pricing is 100% about what they're willing to pay, not about materials or what you'd like your labor cost to be. Of course, if you're just starting out, you don't really know what the market will bear, except by looking at existing services. So something like he's talking about is still helpful. Still a good vid, and I dropped a like :)
Video was awesome and I really enjoyed the shop tour video as well. After watching this video I'm curious to understand what natural finish you use for all of your projects. Thanks again and keep up the good work.
nice dude, super useful. I've been undercharging but its just been hobby stuff so far, boxes and shelves. I'll definitely be charging more once i start actually making furniture.
Just make sure you are getting paid a fair amount for yourself. It’s easy for people to try an discount the worth of what we do but so much goes into it. Time, money, and passion.
@@WilliamDouglasCo I,m charging $85/hr epoxy table work i charge $100/hr because of the level of detail needed to get it right. On-site epoxy work $125/hr I’m pretty happy with that setup. What I learned from your video is taking the material as it is. NOT to estimate material based off the final dimensional piece. I work mostly with live edge table tops. So I for sure have to take longer because its mostly kiln dried so splits and checks are a factor.
Great explanation. In my shop in Texas we don't do by hour on furniture builds. Weather sanding by hand or using a 60K machine the cost still needs to be met. 60K needs to be calculated into cost of running it. We have done well by doubling material plus 25% Double material cost covers time and 25% reasonably covers shop supplies like glue finish and blades machine repair that sort of thing. This covers time materials and still a little profit. King sized Walnut bed, 1100 Lumber cost x 2 plus 25% cost to client 2750 for custom built ship lap bed all traditional joinery. We made our money and cost and the client gets a hand crafted bed for a fair price. This also saves me tracking hours when working multiple builds at once. We charge the material cost up front so we aren't out of pocket on any builds if the client doesn't take delivery for any reason. Hasn't happened but we can recover our cost if it did for some reason.
Adam Oldaker thank you Adam! We appreciate the feedback. Our newer videos don’t have any gifs or memes. We will drop some in here and there but we’re really trying to read the crowd.
Great point on charging the entire material cost. When I first started my business, my early spreadsheets calculated board foot based on the project, but as you said I'd eat the 'scrap' cost. I do believe it made me think carefully on what projects you can make with your leftovers to optimize cost on other projects, but for a long time I had a few shelves of wood that I didn't want to discard, but wouldn't really have a reason to use. I guess that's what cutting boards and coasters are for lol
No joke. I used to price countertops by the Sq ft. Sometimes you make good money that way and sometimes you don’t. This method is a safer bet for you to not lose. We don’t make a killing doing woodwork and it hurts when we miss bid.
This woodworking book *TopFineWoodworking. Com* contains a great deal of details about woodwork. There are some designs in the book but it is primarily explaining the procedure of how to do various things and what tools to use to accomplish them. In general, this book fulfilled my basic desire to learn about wood working.?
the problem is that people who are asking this are generally starting out. Someone starting out cant say $85/hr because it may take them 10 hours to complete a project, where someone who is experienced, already has a large investment in time saving tools etc. can do the same project in 3 hours. People need to make their hourly rate reflect their skill and experience. So if you are having trouble selling your projects, maybe you should only get minimum wage, you start over selling and getting busy, your hourly rate goes up. Guess i should have finished watching the video - you addressed that, take my like ;)
My issue is that people don't know what nice wood is. They want a 4 foot long by 2 foot wide coffe table and price them for nice wood and they tell me the material cost is what they wanted to spend total. Then some people want a painted wood base. I would have no income if I used top of the line woods. People around here don't care about the wood material. Jointery. They just want something nice at a marginal price which makes me use cheap wood to make a profit
Hobbiest looking to make some money on the side, here. Very helpful and entertaining. Thx folks! (Now to figure out how to move my entire garage workshop 6.5 hrs away as we're relocating...)
Subscribed. I really like your approach to doing business its honest and fair. Much like a few others that commented I'm trying to take my woodworking hobby to the next step and make it a side hustle. Thanks for sharing.
Excellent job, really appreciate your content here and in your other posts. Charging a bit less here hourly as I am refining my craft. This is a fun gig, not my primary source of income. Am profiting and getting better with each project. Thanks for keeping it simple. Thank you so much for your time and effort, really appreciate you. God Bless.
I'm not a woodworker but I appreciate fine craftsmanship and what you are doing for the community. If at all possible I'd love to collaborate on something in the future!
Thanks for making this video. I often find that my pricing ends up being inconsistent as I don't have a set formula to go by. I usually wind up shorting myself as a result. Thanks again.
I have owned and operated a custom Millwork business since 1987 and made pretty much every mistake you can being self employed. Something I heard about 15 years ago was that this industry has many great craftsmen that are terrible business people which is so true. Your so busy fabricating under time restraints that you don’t make time for the paper work part of it. As far as hourly rates, usually you will figure that out quickly after loosing money on a few jobs. If your skilled, don’t sell yourself short, there are people working in factories making over a hundred thousand a year with no investment out of there own pockets, with little stress. Great video William should help people new in the business.
Bevelish Creations thats right. My only other charges are things like Delivery Template Site measure Install Then my materials: lumber / hardware / drawers if ordering / finish / etc. $85 / hr This includes all of my consumables unless the job calls for a specialty tool that I won’t use again. Like a crown molding router bit or something odd like that.
@@WilliamDouglasCo subbing as we speak. I scrolled a little ways to see if this was answered already; but when you say your $85 per hour includes consumables, you are referring to sanding discs/belts, glue, etc? I always forget about consumables when I bid my work and then realize it after all is said and done. Smart idea to raise my hourly rate to just include it there. Thanks.
I’ve just recently been able to start doing projects from rough dawn lumber. Found this video very helpful But I’ll also be watching for you to put that video about board footage up. looking at an equation is different than actually understanding it and calculating what you need. Good luck in your TH-cam ventures!
Hey Nick Like anything else, there are some good apps available. However, it is a very good thing to know how to do manually. Thickness x width x length / 144 = BF all done in inches.
Subbed watching all the videos what people say to woodworkers is spot on lol keep up the good work man shop your was really cool to see someone work out of a small space
So quick question, I am a hobbyist for the most part, but in the spring and summers I build Adirondack chairs, and full patio sets for people. I work alone, and have a good selection of tools, but if I were to charge $85/hour, yeah I would make a get profit, but my chairs that are red cedar run about 250.00 would be 6-800 dollars.so how do I price efficiently while still keeping costs down so that my product moves? It costs me roughly $90 in material. I work in my free time so it's not my main income. Any ideas?
Hey Shawn! Thanks for watching. Ask yourself a few questions.. how much time do you spend on the chairs, and are they heirloom quality. If they aren’t going to last longer than the client then we aren’t really talking about the same thing. The reason I price at $85/hr is because of the amount of time / knowledge / design / and equipment that goes into what I do at my level. I can’t survive on less. I would encourage you to watch my other video “my first woodworking piece was stolen” I cover a lot of the stuff in that one along with “how to get clients”. Most of it is philosophical but it was how I approached things and it worked for me. Hope this helped!
@@WilliamDouglasCo yeah I'd say heirloom if cared for. 1 inch eastern or red cedar, all joints are glued and machine screwed together. I mean as heirloom as outdoor furniture can get.
You can make something outnof the cutoffs like endgrain cutting boards or end tables and put them online for sale to not have to eat that cost provided you dont spend overly long to make something like that
One thing to keep in mind is the price of sandpaper, sawblades or wood glue. If it’s a project where you know you will be making a ton of cuts or sanding you might want to add the price of whatever you will have to replace or the partial price of a new blade.
Also happened to me when I started, either that or I charged way too much for a project, im no expert but I'm getting a little more accurate with my prices.
@@roger_001 If somebody paid you for it, you didn't charge too much. You charged market price. Now if you _priced_ it too high and lost the client, different story.
MrTooljunkie thanks tool junkie! We really appreciate it! We were not sure how our approach would be accepted into the community but everyone has been awesome!
Subscribed. Thanks for the break down. Hobbyest looking to go with a side hussle/small business. Looking forward to singing into your channel. Love the stash
Great video. I appreciate the detailed explanation for how you break it down. I love building things around the house and my wife is trying to convince me to start an etsy shop and expand from there. This is extremely helpful. Love your content and the what customers say video was hilarious.
As someone who has no experience with wood working and has very little space and so few tools, what are some resources you would suggest for learning? I have always wanted to learn but never had the space and while I still dont have alot of space I have enough that I feel like I could start with small projects or at least just learning some basics
MMM's Shenanigans it depends on the confidence you have in yourself. I worked construction before I starting making furniture so I had lots of confidence in my abilities. What I did was a bit unorthodox. I just designed something for myself. Kept it simple and made it. That might not work for everyone. My brother in law took a bunch of shop classes from a local who trained under krenov. He learned a lot in a short amount of time with that approach
@@WilliamDouglasCo well I have had experience using different tools here and there but only some of them apply to woodworking. I am a quick study and tend to obsess over learning new things. If there are any websites that you think could help me learn that would be great. I have already been watching several youtubers who do woodworking and just subscribed to you in the Hope's you hit 20k and show us how to make that chair. :p I'm not trying to rush or cut corners. I am looking to learn starting with the basics. Any advice or direction would be greatly appreciated
Will, things to consider, how do you buy equipment and consumables? What about profit, which is not what you pay yourself on an hourly basis. You need to add for depreciation of your equipment and at least 10 percent to the entire bill for profit. You are selling yourself short at $85/hr shop time plus materials. Just something to think about. Keep up the good work. 👍🏼👍🏼
This is a very informative video. Out of the profit what is the best way to allocate what goes into more tools and what goes into personal pay. I am starting in a very small garage and my main issue is tools.
I’m probably not the best person to ask that question to because I’m great at spending money. If my bills are paid and I need a tool.. I will buy it if at all possible. Keep in mind I have a lot of credit card debt and no savings but I’m hungry to grow my company so I always reinvest every available penny. A smart money person will tell you NOT to do that. 🤷🏻♂️
I've read starting out using an oversimplified formula of ~3x cost of materials and from their get experience on how much overhead is and how long projects take, then figure out hourly from there. Do you agree on that, or perhaps lower, or just go for it first time using this method?
Super video thank you! I believe that the vision of woodworkers is surely different where you come from, but unfortunately where I live (Canada, Quebec) people here believe that it is only a profession of passion and that it is not for making money. In no case will I be able to charge $ 85 / hr in my area, even if the plumbers and electricians charge exorbitant prices and they often have no infrastructure. I try to change people's vision and I choose clients with financial means, but it is still seen as a passion and not as a real career. I think it can be both! Thanks again for the video!
Alexandre thanks for the feedback! I’m not sure what cost of living is down there but I can definitely I stand the struggle. $85/hr may sound like a lot but everything all said and done I am certainly not making a killing. Put it this way.. if we want to eat out, I still need to check my account first to see if we can afford it. I’m not talking about high end restaurants either. No one gets rich in this industry!
@@WilliamDouglasCo Yes, I understand you. The average standard of living is pretty good here and people have money. The only thing that bothers me is the perception of the trade. Some people even think of saving money with a woodworker, just to say. Thanks for the feedback! Keep the good work!
Took me a good decade to really get a grasp on pricing aye. In my line of work I generally put a really high hourly rate because I can guarantee there's going to be complications I can't account for, so jacking up the hourly rate allows a buffer for that. Also I seem to have a monopoly at the moment on a 200 km² area.
My issue with a cost + materials price is as you said, if you are hand sanding vs having a 60k widebelt do it for you. In this model, the person hand sanding for 4 hours is going to charge more than the person running a widebelt for 30 minutes, even though that person made the 60k investment into the machine to do it for them. If you have a linear foot or square foot price you are rewarded for getting better/faster/more efficient rather than working yourself out of a job. And in this example you would charge them a square foot price based on the 10' pieces rather than the actual square foot of the top.
What people are miss understanding is that you are not being punished for moving faster, but you are being rewarded because you can accomplish the same task faster, therefore you are able to price things lower without compromising your hourly.
I work in a similar industry and price out time and materials similarly. Who keeps the excess material? Are you only purchasing material for the specific project, or do you keep stock of certain materials? If you keep stock, do you then bill for just what is used?
Russell Miller we keep the excess and the customer pays for whatever it is that I had to buy for their project. I don’t check my personal stock to see if I have a way to make the price cheaper. The price is the same for everyone. It’s not often we have big but offs like that. If we do we use them for things like training interns, making gifts for clients, prototyping, Saving our ass when we mill a piece wrong, etc.
Hobbyist here trying to decide how to price my stuff. Thanks for the advice man great vid. Only one suggestion, it took me a minute to figure out how you came up with the 144 in your math. I finally figured out because board foot 12x12x1=144 but I don’t think you said that and it could easily go over someone else’s head as it almost did mine. +1 sub
Having to think about it might make it more likely to stick :) I went “okay, so he’s calculating the square inches... 144 is 12 by 12 so he’s converting to square feet.... then times the height in inches again”. In other words, 12 board feet is 1 cubic foot of wood. Or in yet other words, a board foot is a square foot by 1 inch thick. Modulo the really arcane bits where “nominally 2 inches thick” may or may not actually be two full inches thick, and so on.
Jasper Janssen I agree with you it would make it more likely to stick but on the other hand it’s a video telling you how to price your work so in this instance I’d mention how I came up with the numbers lmao. Maybe I’m giving myself too much credit for knowing what he meant too haha.
Just found your channel. Good job! I subbed. I know it never rains in Phoenix but still. Maybe a pop up, for the jointer? :) I need to utilize CAD more so I am not charging $85ph just for screw ups and re-designing on the fly :(( btw, Nice truck!
Question do you include shopping for material in your per hour cost? Trying to start a side hustle making custom furniture and your video is the easiest method I’ve found thanks!
Really enjoying your videos and your work - I think that this channel is going to blow up quickly. What finish and application method do you generally use for most of your projects?
cmess77 thank you so much! We love all of the feedback we’ve been getting! For indoor applications we typically use Rubio monocoat. It’s kind of expensive but we love the finish quality we get from it.
Great explanation and advice! $85/hr for labor works for now but will have to adjust with inflation. Decades ago we calculated labor by doubling material cost for rough carpentry, like decks and rustic pieces, and triple for fine work. So, the custom table here would likely start at $1800 for rustic. Am I close?
Tracy Farthing my average basic I don’t like the idea of that because your profit is dictated by the grade of lumber chosen. The labor doesn’t change. In my case it might work but I would be bummed every time someone bought ash because I would have gotten paid more for walnut. In my case this counter top would have been $3520
@@WilliamDouglasCo I was fairly certain that that the old method was too simplistic. I'm considering making heirloom pieces as a hobby/part-time job in retirement. Thanks for the video.
This is a great video. As someone who lives in Phx, uses peterson lumber, builds furniture more as a hobby (two blocks north of your shop actually) ... How long do you let the wood acclimate after we joint and plane for a tabletop between the months of May-oct when the heat is a factor, but also monsoon humidity. Is it just a few weeks or longer and do you consider that acclimation space and time already into your hourly amount?
The acclimation period of the wood doesn’t effect my pricing, only my lead times. If your shop is climate controlled and you are local buying from peterman, a few weeks is all you need. Longer is always better obviously but a few weeks works well
I learned my lesson in a indoor bench time and materials we're way off. The owner showed up I showed her all the receipts how everything was way off price wise, she said thank you and drove off hahaha
Loved the video - very easy and explained well! In this example though, you went through calculating the BF with the known cost of the wood. Im assuming that is what you give the client as your quote, not as the final cost, correct. I’d think getting the exact cost from your lumberyard invoice and passing that onto the client in your own invoice is the way to go. Glad I found your channel, I quickly subscribed! AZ native living in CA (looking for every way to get back lol)
Wood Silo Builds hey thanks so much for the comment. I always guess on the high end and I do not pass along invoices from the lumber yard. I trust in my bid and I keep it at that. There’s no way to know how much it will cost until I actually buy the wood. Because of this it doesn’t make sense to pass it invoice on because it leaves you open to them challenging you and complicating the job. Keep it simple. Bid what you think it will cost and stand by your price regardless of the cost being higher or lower. Adjust your bids as you learn.
Great explanation of materials breakdown! I assume your "hourly" rate is more than just labor cost. Would you mind giving a little more detail about what goes into your hourly rate? Thanks, and keep up the good work!
Escamilla Woodworking sure. Everything goes into the hourly rate aside from materials for a specific job. I don’t charge the customer for consumables. That’s my responsibility to have as an operating shop. I won’t try to charge for things like glue, dominos, screws, tools, wear and tear on tools, sand paper, etc. in my opinion that is the cost to do business In this industry. I do charge separately for the wood / hardware / drawer boxes if I’m outsourcing / and finish. Install / delivery / and templates are extra as well when needed.
Do you add the taxes from your materials? And do you have a “constant cost” that you put on your pricing? (Nails, crews, sponges, brush, sand paper etc)?
Could you explain your hourly cost a bit more? Obviously it will differ from place to place, but where I'm from, $85 an hour seems like it would be a lot to charge for just a one-man shop. Given your model, its clear that amount covers overhead costs like lease payments, utilities and capital assets, but I would like to see a better breakdown of that so I can know what would be a good rate for me to charge in my area. Thanks!
Hey Mitchell! Thanks for watching. My number simply came from what I NEED to operate. I just spent $150 on new pads for my sanders. $150 and specialty clamps. Etc. etc. I choose not to make confusing invoices but I need these things to operate. Router bits. Sand paper. Dust masks. Pencils. And of course utilities. At $85/ hr.. all said and done.. I can make a living if I have VERY limited mistakes. It’s really hard to charge more than that in my area without having massive demand. It may sound like a lot but it’s really not. To put it into perspective.. if we want to go out for dinner I still need to check my account first.
I am missing your side workout calculation that you are doing with red maker. Maybe you underestimated it's importance. If possible kindly make available. Overall you are highly informative & educational. Thanks so much.
Just wondering if your hourly rate factors in things like profit, reinvestment, maintenance. I’ve seen other makers list those separately to come up with the price. Thanks for the video. Very helpful.
I'm just getting into making - I want to say professionally but perhaps custom or fine is more accurate. This was very helpful. I need to do a few spec items now to see how long it takes when I'm not doing it as a hobby. Do you put wear and tear in the hourly, or is that something else? So jealous of your location. Florida and Arizona two best bicycling states in America. I'm in Canada sooo no biking for three more months.
Terence Alderson I’ve always wanted to visit Canada. Everyone I’ve met from their has been so nice. When you say biking are you talking bicycles or motorcycles? I do not add anything extra for wear and tear or consumables. Figure out what you need to make and roll it all into your hourly. It’s too hard to explain to a customer why they are paying for wear and tear / blades etc. they will start picking you apart. Asking how many times you used the saw on their project and how much it costs to resharpen etc. keep it simple.
You are very lucky if you only need 7x 5.5" boards to cover 26 inches! I usually lose at least an inch per 6" boards on the jointer + ripping. Just discovered your channel, I like your stuff!
alain pilon yeah you are right! This was really just a guide line. If you pick some wonky boards you will definitely need more. Also.. always shoot a little high. Being that I primarily use 2 wood types it doesn’t hurt to have extra on the storage racks incase we short ourselves on an order.
![How To Get Clients | Woodworker | William Douglas Co. [4K]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QP9MATi0DmE/mqdefault.jpg)
![How To Get Clients | Woodworker | William Douglas Co. [4K]](/img/tr.png)
So far this has been the most straight forward, fair and simple way to price out projects I have come across, thank you for putting this information out there in such an easy-to-understand way.
Watching your video makes me feel better about what I am charging thank you
I'm just a hobbyist. Seeing how you calculated the board ft required for that top is really helpful. Great vids!
stuart so happy we could help! This work can be very rewarding! Keep with it
i try to remember that a 2x6 8ft long is 8 BF. This is a quick way for me at the lumber yard to pick through material. This is not accurate for quoting clients!!
@@AdamCraigOutdoors bad experiences? 😬
Classic time and materials pricing, I have always done it this way and like you, I eat my mistakes and learn from them. Subscribed and I look forward to seeing where your channel goes.
Darrel Nystrom thank you very much for the support. Eating your mistakes is how we grow and become realistic with our bids.
FINALLY!!! Math that I can actually do! Thank you
🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
Subbed... The Alder stained like Walnut skit made me spit out my taco! Excited to see future videos. Thanks for the laugh and great content.
Thanks so much! I owe you a 🌮.
Full version of the skit is coming VERY soon. 😉
the 'is it funny' gold standard = 'made me spit out my taco!' = very funny :)
William Douglas Co. I laughed so hard at this. Recently had to try and match a maple door to a cedar table for a client. Good info, subbed.
Jeffrey Smith takes a lot to make me spit out a taco
Feel lost in a world full of imperial standard measurements, quick conversion to metric, a great video really appreciated over here in Europe.
Jacob Bell do you guys buy lumber by the board foot over there? 4/4 6/4 8/4 12/4? What is your current cost on rough sawn 8/4 walnut?
William Douglas Co. I’m from the UK so it becomes a little trickier because there’s not a lot of standardisation. Some merchants still use British imperial measurements and some use metric and our generic hardware stores use both. And some yards sell buy cubic feet as well so I’m sure you can see the nightmare that some of us deal with. My father and I primarily turn pieces and don’t buy boards as often as most furniture makers do so buying boarded hardwood is something I rarely do, I’m much more interested in a lump of something interesting to stick in the lathe. A rough sawn board for me is about £70 ($90ish) and then I have to pay for delivery to my shed in central London which is another exorbitant cost I can’t avoid.
Thumbs up for the kids in the hall bit and the good info.
Don’t undercut yourself.
Can’t afford to! Just trying to pay our bills!
I live on Oahu , honolulu and search craigs list for Wood working tools every day. Ive been seeing more and more wood working shops folding here and selling off equipment . Its a tough business unless you have talent and are fair and consistent in your products and give the customer Exactly what they want for a fair price. 85 hr is very fair... and your work is phenomenal !!! keep going brother your on the right path.
SA that’s so much! The first time I went to Oahu I tried to find a way to move out there! Never worked out obviously but the last time we went to Hawaii we went to Maui and I couldn’t find a lumber yard anywhere! I found this hardware store and they had a small selection of lumber. I ended buying some mango wood and brought it home in my luggage haha one day it’s going to be a knock box for my espresso machine.
Awesome video! SUBSCRIBED!
Loving the videos so far! Great channel!
Robert J. Keller thanks so much! We really appreciate it!
Pretty much. My pricing structure is nearly identical. And I think doing it this way is the easiest way for clients to understand. So when I give them an itemized list for a quote, they don't just speculate I'm trying to take them out to the cleaners. Especially when it's super big projects... Thinking about spending as much for woodwork as you would for a nice lightly used car is a daunting thought. The readable list the way makes people feel more comfortable I think.
By the way... I appreciate the fact that you are accurately answering people's questions with experience and wisdom. A lot of people on TH-cam answer with speculation to feel smart lol. Great work. I think your channel will grow quickly. Subscribed.
Mayday's Custom Woodworks thank you so much for the thoughtful comment. I’m the type of person who doesn’t talk unless I know what I’m talking about. I will happily sit quietly and listen to others when I’m not educated on a subject. Woodworking / design / build etc are one of the very few things i will confidently speak my mind about. Otherwise my MO is to find the smartest guy in the room and just ask questions.
This video is clear and helpful. There is an “art” aspect to what you do, but the expectation you set out in the video makes minimum pricing predictable as a maker/business.
The other video I saw saying 59,000 had me really confused. This video cleared that up
Really liking what you're putting up guys. Showing a lot of promise and I think what your doing is great. Good, solid content delivered well. All the best!
Benny Doodson thank you so much! We love the community and want to help as much as we can. Furthermore we want to create some humor for everyone!
@@WilliamDouglasCo No worries at all. Credit where credit is due! It's great to see you making the effort to get involved with your community as well as your viewers, and everyone can do with a bit of a laugh. Keep up the good work!
Benny Doodson I appreciate that! Thank you
Thank you for the simplicity. A lot of videos you see on this subject are way more complicated than they need to be.
bighead0107 that’s exactly what triggered this video for us!
Just found your channel and I love the comedy+practicality! Thank you for all the hard work.
So happy you found us! Welcome as we embark on this new journey!
Very informative. Thank You for showing and sharing that you do not have to minimize pricing to those bargain shoppers something that took time to craft and care for. Your delivering quality work to a customer that will appreciate what they are receiving. This gives me the motivation on why I love creating. Thank You
Really glad to hear this is being received well! Quality craftsmanship is something we want to see values more in our community. When did we stop caring about the landfills and wasteful goods? We spend an incredibly large amount of time refining our craft and we should be able to live a descent life on that.
Agreed!
You have a real solid insight and look forward to seeing everything you will be sharing with us all.
I'm 2 videos in and I appreciate your knowledge. It's not always easy to pass on the information you worked so hard to figure out yourself.
I’m an open book and want to help with the things I struggled with!
Great, simple explanation. Folks newer to pricing, however, may find that the real important stuff is how one arrives at that hourly shop rate.
Even more important is how you estimate how many hours it takes you. You can always adjust your hourly rate if you’re finding that the cash flow does not support buying enough new toys, I mean tools, after you pay rent and electricity.
Guys i found a good website about woodworking that is *TopFineWoodworking. Com* you can find more than 16000 woodworking projects and plans their
I have only done smaller projects and did them in batch. In that case, I charged a flat fee but knew that if I spent a complete day or two that I wanted to net a certain amount. I divided that amount by the number of items I needed to make at a reasonable price.
Thanks for the clear and simple pricing breakdown!
Hey I'm a Maker I hope it was helpful to you!
@@WilliamDouglasCo Absolutely!
I love K.I.S.S it’s the best philosophy. Great video
Ronald Barber thanks for watching! Simple is always safe
Very helpful video. Thank you!
Happy to help! Thank you for watching
I'm currently a hobbyist. I'm taking steps now to make this a part time job. Your videos have been helpful. Subscribed!
Thank you for the sub Patrick! We appreciate the support
I'm just a hobbiest making stuff in my spare time, but just wanted to say I think everything you said makes perfect sense. Keep up the good work/videos (+1 sub 🤘)
I use your method almost exactly but my hourly rate is a little lower, because that was just a decision I made when I started my business. Simple is a huge benefit to customers as well, especially not marking up materials. Great video!
As far as I'm concern, for a woodworker hobbyist, working alone in is shop, 85$ per hour os ridicously too high
Keep them coming,Really enjoy your show no bullshit fake crap!
We have all at one time, myself included, made well below minimum wage on some projects and have even eaten a loss on a couple projects. You live and learn as you said! Great video!
Same way I do it. Unfortunately I'm terrible at estimating my time, because there's always something that comes up, or my closest hardwood dealer has run out of Walnut when I show up, and I've got to go to the other one an hour away. Do you find people scoff at your $85/hour? People usually get sticker shock at my $65/hr but then ultimately come back two weeks later after they've shopped around.
Wm. Walker Co. people scoff at my prices all the time. I know that to cover my overhead and provide for my family I need to make at least $85/ hour. A woodworking shop is very expensive to run even with no employees. Equipment is so expensive and we consume a lot of electricity. I know people who have a shop rate of over $200 and I intend to be there one day.
@@WilliamDouglasCo $200/hr shop rate for woodworking?? I work in aerospace and the shops we deal with making our tooling components are in the $80/hr shop rate. We're talking million dollar CNC equipment.
How do you justify $200/hr for wood working?
OU812 I’m not a woodworker. I do woodworking. I am a designer/artist/creator/problem solver. At the end of the day you aren’t paying me to do woodworking. You choose me because you want to be a part of what we are doing. You trust me to execute what we are doing. You don’t come to me to have something built for cheaper than someone els will do it. Same reasons you paid premiums for frank lloyd Wright. Sure, you could have found someone cheaper.. but it wouldn’t be the same.
@@WilliamDouglasCo Yeah I get it but...I design and manufacture custom aircraft engine test equipment for my clients and and we're invloved in high level engineering work and certification. We don't charge anywhere near $200/hr. Nobody in my field does. If I try to do that I'd get laughed at by every single one of my clients.
I don't understand what warrants that crazy high rate for building furniture. Sure there's skill and artistry invloved but with all due respect it's not the same as what's required in engineering fields.
Hey if your clients are willing to pay that more power to you.
OU812 you’re value is what people will pay for you. This is the whole scientist vs artist argument. Me being on the art side.. we evoke emotion. That goes further then you are giving credit. Think about paintings. Music. Art exhibits. Some things that sell for the most are the most simple to execute. It’s not about complexity or your engineering degree. Engineering doesn’t excite anyone.
Let’s be clear.. I DONT charge $200 / hr. I charge $85 / hour and certainly don’t live a lavish life. I am trying to earn a more comfortable life for myself and my family with the effort and dedication I put into my craft. I hope one day to be able to accomplish that.
Nice, that’s exactly how I do it. It’s also important to account for material procurement and delivery of the final product.
M Chill yeah I forgot to talk about those things. Delivery / installs / templates all have separate charges
@@WilliamDouglasCo we charge $2.00/mile and add that to delivery and material cost. My lumber yard is a solid 15 mile drive. Someone north of the city is a good 19 miles away.
Nice video! I don’t build furniture for a living, but I love carpentry and woodworking on all levels.
Thank you for watching!
William Douglas Co. yeah! Thanks for the reply!
What you should charge is what the market will support. Raise your prices until business dries up to the point that overall revenue goes down, then back off a bit. Someone new shows up and undercuts you? Undercut them back and defend your customer base. I'm not a carpenter, but a mechanic. Pricing is 100% about what they're willing to pay, not about materials or what you'd like your labor cost to be.
Of course, if you're just starting out, you don't really know what the market will bear, except by looking at existing services. So something like he's talking about is still helpful. Still a good vid, and I dropped a like :)
travis dunn thanks for the like and thanks for watching!
Video was awesome and I really enjoyed the shop tour video as well. After watching this video I'm curious to understand what natural finish you use for all of your projects. Thanks again and keep up the good work.
Pancho Brown I typically use Rubio Monocoat on most of my work. Thanks so much for the sub!
nice dude, super useful. I've been undercharging but its just been hobby stuff so far, boxes and shelves. I'll definitely be charging more once i start actually making furniture.
Just make sure you are getting paid a fair amount for yourself. It’s easy for people to try an discount the worth of what we do but so much goes into it. Time, money, and passion.
@@WilliamDouglasCo so true man, so true. Thanks
Wow! You have a great method. I’m going to give this a go.
Thanks! I’ve since taken on a lot of overhead and a storefront so as of now our hourly has jumped to $150/ hr
@@WilliamDouglasCo I,m charging $85/hr epoxy table work i charge $100/hr because of the level of detail needed to get it right. On-site epoxy work $125/hr I’m pretty happy with that setup. What I learned from your video is taking the material as it is. NOT to estimate material based off the final dimensional piece. I work mostly with live edge table tops. So I for sure have to take longer because its mostly kiln dried so splits and checks are a factor.
@@nickfonseca8488 good to hear. Sounds like you have a pretty good grasp on it!
Great explanation. In my shop in Texas we don't do by hour on furniture builds. Weather sanding by hand or using a 60K machine the cost still needs to be met. 60K needs to be calculated into cost of running it. We have done well by doubling material plus 25% Double material cost covers time and 25% reasonably covers shop supplies like glue finish and blades machine repair that sort of thing. This covers time materials and still a little profit. King sized Walnut bed, 1100 Lumber cost x 2 plus 25% cost to client 2750 for custom built ship lap bed all traditional joinery.
We made our money and cost and the client gets a hand crafted bed for a fair price. This also saves me tracking hours when working multiple builds at once. We charge the material cost up front so we aren't out of pocket on any builds if the client doesn't take delivery for any reason. Hasn't happened but we can recover our cost if it did for some reason.
Great video! You're very good at presentation with a good personality. Don't ruin your videos with so many gif's! Consider me subscribed!
Adam Oldaker thank you Adam! We appreciate the feedback. Our newer videos don’t have any gifs or memes. We will drop some in here and there but we’re really trying to read the crowd.
Super helpful! People always tell me I don't charge enough.
Ron Vickers if you don’t value your time no one will
Great point on charging the entire material cost. When I first started my business, my early spreadsheets calculated board foot based on the project, but as you said I'd eat the 'scrap' cost. I do believe it made me think carefully on what projects you can make with your leftovers to optimize cost on other projects, but for a long time I had a few shelves of wood that I didn't want to discard, but wouldn't really have a reason to use. I guess that's what cutting boards and coasters are for lol
No joke. I used to price countertops by the Sq ft. Sometimes you make good money that way and sometimes you don’t. This method is a safer bet for you to not lose. We don’t make a killing doing woodwork and it hurts when we miss bid.
This woodworking book *TopFineWoodworking. Com* contains a great deal of details about woodwork. There are some designs in the book but it is primarily explaining the procedure of how to do various things and what tools to use to accomplish them. In general, this book fulfilled my basic desire to learn about wood working.?
That’s great advise.. as you said everyone has a method and finding the method that works for them is the key to success.
Macdelt Torres that’s the ticket
the problem is that people who are asking this are generally starting out. Someone starting out cant say $85/hr because it may take them 10 hours to complete a project, where someone who is experienced, already has a large investment in time saving tools etc. can do the same project in 3 hours. People need to make their hourly rate reflect their skill and experience. So if you are having trouble selling your projects, maybe you should only get minimum wage, you start over selling and getting busy, your hourly rate goes up.
Guess i should have finished watching the video - you addressed that, take my like ;)
Andrew Pierce thanks for watching! Haha
My issue is that people don't know what nice wood is. They want a 4 foot long by 2 foot wide coffe table and price them for nice wood and they tell me the material cost is what they wanted to spend total. Then some people want a painted wood base. I would have no income if I used top of the line woods. People around here don't care about the wood material. Jointery. They just want something nice at a marginal price which makes me use cheap wood to make a profit
Great video! Subbed just because of how interactive you have been with questions in the comments.
NPC Blacksmith I do my best. I really want to help people and our videos seem to be inspiring other woodworkers. 🙂
Hobbiest looking to make some money on the side, here. Very helpful and entertaining. Thx folks! (Now to figure out how to move my entire garage workshop 6.5 hrs away as we're relocating...)
Happy it was helpful to you! Good luck with your move!
I like your presentation and attitude, I subscribed because of that, thanks for the content!
Dave Scott we appreciate you David! Thanks for leaving a comment!
Subscribed. I really like your approach to doing business its honest and fair. Much like a few others that commented I'm trying to take my woodworking hobby to the next step and make it a side hustle. Thanks for sharing.
Fantastic, im subscribed!!
Excellent job, really appreciate your content here and in your other posts. Charging a bit less here hourly as I am refining my craft. This is a fun gig, not my primary source of income. Am profiting and getting better with each project. Thanks for keeping it simple. Thank you so much for your time and effort, really appreciate you. God Bless.
Thanks Mark! What a refreshingly kind comment. I wish you the best man. You seem like a good dude.
I'm not a woodworker but I appreciate fine craftsmanship and what you are doing for the community. If at all possible I'd love to collaborate on something in the future!
Axis Paintworks I really appreciate that support and kind words!! I LOVE doing collabs with people in other trades. Let’s connect!
@@WilliamDouglasCo I'm down. Lets grab a coffee or something in the next couple of weeks?
Great video, subbed. Great production in your content. Hope you guys continue to grow.
Jon Bower I’m so happy to hear you like our videos! We will keep them coming!
Thanks for making this video. I often find that my pricing ends up being inconsistent as I don't have a set formula to go by. I usually wind up shorting myself as a result. Thanks again.
Truly happy to help. I look forward to helping as much as I can
I have owned and operated a custom Millwork business since 1987 and made pretty much every mistake you can being self employed. Something I heard about 15 years ago was that this industry has many great craftsmen that are terrible business people which is so true. Your so busy fabricating under time restraints that you don’t make time for the paper work part of it. As far as hourly rates, usually you will figure that out quickly after loosing money on a few jobs. If your skilled, don’t sell yourself short, there are people working in factories making over a hundred thousand a year with no investment out of there own pockets, with little stress. Great video William should help people new in the business.
hammerhead99140 thank you for all of the insight. At the end of reading it all I wanted to work at a factory 😂
I here ya
Thank you.
Just watched this...so you don’t do any additional margin, right? All of that is rolled up in the $85/hr?
Bevelish Creations thats right. My only other charges are things like
Delivery
Template
Site measure
Install
Then my materials: lumber / hardware / drawers if ordering / finish / etc.
$85 / hr
This includes all of my consumables unless the job calls for a specialty tool that I won’t use again. Like a crown molding router bit or something odd like that.
@@WilliamDouglasCo subbing as we speak. I scrolled a little ways to see if this was answered already; but when you say your $85 per hour includes consumables, you are referring to sanding discs/belts, glue, etc? I always forget about consumables when I bid my work and then realize it after all is said and done. Smart idea to raise my hourly rate to just include it there. Thanks.
@@markjcarpino yes! Consumables being frequently purchased small things. Sand paper, screws, micro fiber towels, etc. thanks for the sub!
I’ve just recently been able to start doing projects from rough dawn lumber. Found this video very helpful
But I’ll also be watching for you to put that video about board footage up. looking at an equation is different than actually understanding it and calculating what you need.
Good luck in your TH-cam ventures!
Nick Johnston thank you for the support! I’ll add this to our list of videos to make 😊
Hey Nick
Like anything else, there are some good apps available. However, it is a very good thing to know how to do manually.
Thickness x width x length / 144 = BF all done in inches.
Matt Harp appreciate that info!
Subbed watching all the videos what people say to woodworkers is spot on lol keep up the good work man shop your was really cool to see someone work out of a small space
Jacob Chamblee thanks so much Jacob! Your support means a lot to us! Glad you got a good laugh!
So quick question, I am a hobbyist for the most part, but in the spring and summers I build Adirondack chairs, and full patio sets for people. I work alone, and have a good selection of tools, but if I were to charge $85/hour, yeah I would make a get profit, but my chairs that are red cedar run about 250.00 would be 6-800 dollars.so how do I price efficiently while still keeping costs down so that my product moves? It costs me roughly $90 in material. I work in my free time so it's not my main income. Any ideas?
Hey Shawn! Thanks for watching. Ask yourself a few questions.. how much time do you spend on the chairs, and are they heirloom quality. If they aren’t going to last longer than the client then we aren’t really talking about the same thing. The reason I price at $85/hr is because of the amount of time / knowledge / design / and equipment that goes into what I do at my level. I can’t survive on less. I would encourage you to watch my other video “my first woodworking piece was stolen”
I cover a lot of the stuff in that one along with “how to get clients”. Most of it is philosophical but it was how I approached things and it worked for me.
Hope this helped!
@@WilliamDouglasCo yeah I'd say heirloom if cared for. 1 inch eastern or red cedar, all joints are glued and machine screwed together. I mean as heirloom as outdoor furniture can get.
You can make something outnof the cutoffs like endgrain cutting boards or end tables and put them online for sale to not have to eat that cost provided you dont spend overly long to make something like that
Fair point!
Awesome video. Thank you for sharing.
Thank you for leaving a comment! We appreciate the love!
One thing to keep in mind is the price of sandpaper, sawblades or wood glue. If it’s a project where you know you will be making a ton of cuts or sanding you might want to add the price of whatever you will have to replace or the partial price of a new blade.
Sure there are jobs with exceptions. I added in a cost of a blade when I last worked with IPE because I knew it would kill my blade
I'm an idiot so I end up losing money on my projects lol
Seth's Project Woodworking we’ve all been there. It’s a part of it. You just have to keep at it and learn from mistakes.
Also happened to me when I started, either that or I charged way too much for a project, im no expert but I'm getting a little more accurate with my prices.
@@roger_001 If somebody paid you for it, you didn't charge too much. You charged market price. Now if you _priced_ it too high and lost the client, different story.
What a great channel - I am enjoying all of your videos and look forward to seeing more! Great content.
MrTooljunkie thanks tool junkie! We really appreciate it! We were not sure how our approach would be accepted into the community but everyone has been awesome!
Subscribed. Thanks for the break down. Hobbyest looking to go with a side hussle/small business. Looking forward to singing into your channel. Love the stash
Josh Dill thanks so much! We’re happy to have you on board as the channel grows!
@@WilliamDouglasCo I've watched some of the bigger channels grow. Glad to help out someone smaller in a position that is closer to me
Great video. I appreciate the detailed explanation for how you break it down. I love building things around the house and my wife is trying to convince me to start an etsy shop and expand from there. This is extremely helpful. Love your content and the what customers say video was hilarious.
Jeffrey Monarch thanks so much for following along with us! I’m glad to hear this was helpful and you’re getting a few laughs out of it!
As someone who has no experience with wood working and has very little space and so few tools, what are some resources you would suggest for learning? I have always wanted to learn but never had the space and while I still dont have alot of space I have enough that I feel like I could start with small projects or at least just learning some basics
MMM's Shenanigans it depends on the confidence you have in yourself. I worked construction before I starting making furniture so I had lots of confidence in my abilities. What I did was a bit unorthodox. I just designed something for myself. Kept it simple and made it. That might not work for everyone. My brother in law took a bunch of shop classes from a local who trained under krenov. He learned a lot in a short amount of time with that approach
@@WilliamDouglasCo well I have had experience using different tools here and there but only some of them apply to woodworking. I am a quick study and tend to obsess over learning new things. If there are any websites that you think could help me learn that would be great. I have already been watching several youtubers who do woodworking and just subscribed to you in the Hope's you hit 20k and show us how to make that chair. :p I'm not trying to rush or cut corners. I am looking to learn starting with the basics. Any advice or direction would be greatly appreciated
Will, things to consider, how do you buy equipment and consumables? What about profit, which is not what you pay yourself on an hourly basis. You need to add for depreciation of your equipment and at least 10 percent to the entire bill for profit. You are selling yourself short at $85/hr shop time plus materials.
Just something to think about.
Keep up the good work. 👍🏼👍🏼
I appreciate that. Our shop rate has since been increased to $130 / hr to cover new overhead.
This is a very informative video. Out of the profit what is the best way to allocate what goes into more tools and what goes into personal pay. I am starting in a very small garage and my main issue is tools.
I’m probably not the best person to ask that question to because I’m great at spending money. If my bills are paid and I need a tool.. I will buy it if at all possible. Keep in mind I have a lot of credit card debt and no savings but I’m hungry to grow my company so I always reinvest every available penny. A smart money person will tell you NOT to do that. 🤷🏻♂️
This is great!! Thanks for the GOOD video!! Up here in Canada $85US an hour is $112CDN!
😬😬😬
If you're using rough sawn lumber, wouldn't you lose some of the 5.5" width on the final dressed lumber?
freezo fry yes I should have thrown in an extra board to be safe
He only needed 6.5 boards and he wrote 7, so he should be good.
I've read starting out using an oversimplified formula of ~3x cost of materials and from their get experience on how much overhead is and how long projects take, then figure out hourly from there. Do you agree on that, or perhaps lower, or just go for it first time using this method?
Cost of materials vary too much to rely on that method. You could be talking about a difference of thousands depending on the job.
Super video thank you! I believe that the vision of woodworkers is surely different where you come from, but unfortunately where I live (Canada, Quebec) people here believe that it is only a profession of passion and that it is not for making money. In no case will I be able to charge $ 85 / hr in my area, even if the plumbers and electricians charge exorbitant prices and they often have no infrastructure. I try to change people's vision and I choose clients with financial means, but it is still seen as a passion and not as a real career. I think it can be both! Thanks again for the video!
Alexandre thanks for the feedback! I’m not sure what cost of living is down there but I can definitely I stand the struggle. $85/hr may sound like a lot but everything all said and done I am certainly not making a killing. Put it this way.. if we want to eat out, I still need to check my account first to see if we can afford it. I’m not talking about high end restaurants either. No one gets rich in this industry!
@@WilliamDouglasCo Yes, I understand you. The average standard of living is pretty good here and people have money. The only thing that bothers me is the perception of the trade. Some people even think of saving money with a woodworker, just to say. Thanks for the feedback! Keep the good work!
In this example what would be the final number you give to the customer?
Could you make a video on making the cabinet in the thumbnail?
Took me a good decade to really get a grasp on pricing aye.
In my line of work I generally put a really high hourly rate because I can guarantee there's going to be complications I can't account for, so jacking up the hourly rate allows a buffer for that.
Also I seem to have a monopoly at the moment on a 200 km² area.
Pricing is one of the hardest things to learn. So many variables.
My issue with a cost + materials price is as you said, if you are hand sanding vs having a 60k widebelt do it for you. In this model, the person hand sanding for 4 hours is going to charge more than the person running a widebelt for 30 minutes, even though that person made the 60k investment into the machine to do it for them. If you have a linear foot or square foot price you are rewarded for getting better/faster/more efficient rather than working yourself out of a job. And in this example you would charge them a square foot price based on the 10' pieces rather than the actual square foot of the top.
What people are miss understanding is that you are not being punished for moving faster, but you are being rewarded because you can accomplish the same task faster, therefore you are able to price things lower without compromising your hourly.
I work in a similar industry and price out time and materials similarly. Who keeps the excess material? Are you only purchasing material for the specific project, or do you keep stock of certain materials? If you keep stock, do you then bill for just what is used?
Russell Miller we keep the excess and the customer pays for whatever it is that I had to buy for their project. I don’t check my personal stock to see if I have a way to make the price cheaper. The price is the same for everyone. It’s not often we have big but offs like that. If we do we use them for things like training interns, making gifts for clients, prototyping, Saving our ass when we mill a piece wrong, etc.
@@WilliamDouglasCo Thanks for the reply
I dig it! Simplified,I live in the Bay Area and most of my customers are in San Francisco it’s definitely not cheap and trying to run a shop
Hobbyist here trying to decide how to price my stuff. Thanks for the advice man great vid. Only one suggestion, it took me a minute to figure out how you came up with the 144 in your math. I finally figured out because board foot 12x12x1=144 but I don’t think you said that and it could easily go over someone else’s head as it almost did mine. +1 sub
Mally Martin oh good call man. Thanks for the sub!
Having to think about it might make it more likely to stick :)
I went “okay, so he’s calculating the square inches... 144 is 12 by 12 so he’s converting to square feet.... then times the height in inches again”.
In other words, 12 board feet is 1 cubic foot of wood. Or in yet other words, a board foot is a square foot by 1 inch thick. Modulo the really arcane bits where “nominally 2 inches thick” may or may not actually be two full inches thick, and so on.
Jasper Janssen I agree with you it would make it more likely to stick but on the other hand it’s a video telling you how to price your work so in this instance I’d mention how I came up with the numbers lmao. Maybe I’m giving myself too much credit for knowing what he meant too haha.
Just found your channel. Good job! I subbed. I know it never rains in Phoenix but still. Maybe a pop up, for the jointer? :)
I need to utilize CAD more so I am not charging $85ph just for screw ups and re-designing on the fly :(( btw, Nice truck!
Thanks so much! We’ve since moved into a shop after being forced to leave by a shitty neighbor.
Question do you include shopping for material in your per hour cost? Trying to start a side hustle making custom furniture and your video is the easiest method I’ve found thanks!
Who do you like in Phoenix for walnut lumber?
Great breakdown. Makes things much simpler. KISS is always your best approach. Thanks for sharing. Keep the videos coming.
Pat Donovan thank you for watching!
BEAUTIFUL
Dmtrump3t hope it was helpful!
Really enjoying your videos and your work - I think that this channel is going to blow up quickly. What finish and application method do you generally use for most of your projects?
cmess77 thank you so much! We love all of the feedback we’ve been getting! For indoor applications we typically use Rubio monocoat. It’s kind of expensive but we love the finish quality we get from it.
Great explanation and advice! $85/hr for labor works for now but will have to adjust with inflation. Decades ago we calculated labor by doubling material cost for rough carpentry, like decks and rustic pieces, and triple for fine work. So, the custom table here would likely start at $1800 for rustic. Am I close?
Tracy Farthing my average basic I don’t like the idea of that because your profit is dictated by the grade of lumber chosen. The labor doesn’t change. In my case it might work but I would be bummed every time someone bought ash because I would have gotten paid more for walnut. In my case this counter top would have been $3520
@@WilliamDouglasCo I was fairly certain that that the old method was too simplistic. I'm considering making heirloom pieces as a hobby/part-time job in retirement. Thanks for the video.
This is a great video. As someone who lives in Phx, uses peterson lumber, builds furniture more as a hobby (two blocks north of your shop actually) ... How long do you let the wood acclimate after we joint and plane for a tabletop between the months of May-oct when the heat is a factor, but also monsoon humidity. Is it just a few weeks or longer and do you consider that acclimation space and time already into your hourly amount?
The acclimation period of the wood doesn’t effect my pricing, only my lead times. If your shop is climate controlled and you are local buying from peterman, a few weeks is all you need. Longer is always better obviously but a few weeks works well
I learned my lesson in a indoor bench time and materials we're way off. The owner showed up I showed her all the receipts how everything was way off price wise, she said thank you and drove off hahaha
Great info! Thanks
My Garage Woodshop I hope it was helpful!!
Loved the video - very easy and explained well! In this example though, you went through calculating the BF with the known cost of the wood. Im assuming that is what you give the client as your quote, not as the final cost, correct. I’d think getting the exact cost from your lumberyard invoice and passing that onto the client in your own invoice is the way to go.
Glad I found your channel, I quickly subscribed! AZ native living in CA (looking for every way to get back lol)
Wood Silo Builds hey thanks so much for the comment. I always guess on the high end and I do not pass along invoices from the lumber yard. I trust in my bid and I keep it at that. There’s no way to know how much it will cost until I actually buy the wood. Because of this it doesn’t make sense to pass it invoice on because it leaves you open to them challenging you and complicating the job. Keep it simple. Bid what you think it will cost and stand by your price regardless of the cost being higher or lower. Adjust your bids as you learn.
Great explanation of materials breakdown! I assume your "hourly" rate is more than just labor cost. Would you mind giving a little more detail about what goes into your hourly rate? Thanks, and keep up the good work!
Escamilla Woodworking sure. Everything goes into the hourly rate aside from materials for a specific job. I don’t charge the customer for consumables. That’s my responsibility to have as an operating shop. I won’t try to charge for things like glue, dominos, screws, tools, wear and tear on tools, sand paper, etc. in my opinion that is the cost to do business In this industry. I do charge separately for the wood / hardware / drawer boxes if I’m outsourcing / and finish. Install / delivery / and templates are extra as well when needed.
Do you add the taxes from your materials? And do you have a “constant cost” that you put on your pricing? (Nails, crews, sponges, brush, sand paper etc)?
Could you explain your hourly cost a bit more? Obviously it will differ from place to place, but where I'm from, $85 an hour seems like it would be a lot to charge for just a one-man shop. Given your model, its clear that amount covers overhead costs like lease payments, utilities and capital assets, but I would like to see a better breakdown of that so I can know what would be a good rate for me to charge in my area. Thanks!
Hey Mitchell! Thanks for watching. My number simply came from what I NEED to operate. I just spent $150 on new pads for my sanders. $150 and specialty clamps. Etc. etc. I choose not to make confusing invoices but I need these things to operate. Router bits. Sand paper. Dust masks. Pencils. And of course utilities. At $85/ hr.. all said and done.. I can make a living if I have VERY limited mistakes. It’s really hard to charge more than that in my area without having massive demand. It may sound like a lot but it’s really not. To put it into perspective.. if we want to go out for dinner I still need to check my account first.
@@WilliamDouglasCo Thanks! I think it might just take a little bit guess and test to come up with a good number for my needs
Mitchell McGlinn that’s right! Sounds unhelpful but that’s exactly it.
Very helpful.. thank you for putting it out here.. I'm in Phoenix too.. any tips where to get rough sawn wood for good price in the valley?
Peterman lumber. Ask for Brian and tell him I sent you.
@@WilliamDouglasCo I will check it out for sure. Thank you very much! Have a great night..
Gustavo E you as well!
Do you not include consumables in your pricing? Sandpaper, glue, electricity, etc.
Great video though, thank you
And i apparently need to finish videos before commenting hahaha. Good on ya!
I am missing your side workout calculation that you are doing with red maker. Maybe you underestimated it's importance. If possible kindly make available. Overall you are highly informative & educational. Thanks so much.
Thanks for the info. Really appreciate your work.
Joe Devine we’re happy to help!
That Finnish thing was funny 😂🤠🇫🇮
Just wondering if your hourly rate factors in things like profit, reinvestment, maintenance. I’ve seen other makers list those separately to come up with the price. Thanks for the video. Very helpful.
I'm just getting into making - I want to say professionally but perhaps custom or fine is more accurate. This was very helpful. I need to do a few spec items now to see how long it takes when I'm not doing it as a hobby. Do you put wear and tear in the hourly, or is that something else? So jealous of your location. Florida and Arizona two best bicycling states in America. I'm in Canada sooo no biking for three more months.
Terence Alderson I’ve always wanted to visit Canada. Everyone I’ve met from their has been so nice. When you say biking are you talking bicycles or motorcycles?
I do not add anything extra for wear and tear or consumables. Figure out what you need to make and roll it all into your hourly. It’s too hard to explain to a customer why they are paying for wear and tear / blades etc. they will start picking you apart. Asking how many times you used the saw on their project and how much it costs to resharpen etc. keep it simple.
@@WilliamDouglasCo Bicycles. I'd be such a poser on a motorbike.
Fellow cyclist from Texas here. Keep it rubber side down brother.
Great stuff, thanks! Love the comedic touch!
Hey sir, you mentioned that you were in Phoenix, and I was wondering if you would tell me where you get your stock from?
Also curious. Currently I get most of my stuff from Peterman, but I know there are others out there that I haven't tried.
@@T-Flame awesome mate, thank you, I'll be looking into them when I get back. Thank you so much.
You are very lucky if you only need 7x 5.5" boards to cover 26 inches! I usually lose at least an inch per 6" boards on the jointer + ripping. Just discovered your channel, I like your stuff!
alain pilon yeah you are right! This was really just a guide line. If you pick some wonky boards you will definitely need more. Also.. always shoot a little high. Being that I primarily use 2 wood types it doesn’t hurt to have extra on the storage racks incase we short ourselves on an order.