Come on, cars lithium-air batteries do NOT end up in landfills 98% of the times. Every single car manufacturer has an end-of-life reusing/recycling scheme.
Just talking about current situation. Though in retrospect, it is a little misleading. The point we were trying to make was that the aluminium smelting process if much more mature.
I took that to mean lithium batteries in general, like little rechargeables, watch batteries, power tool batteries and phone batteries, I feel like the bulk of those get tossed in the trash. Which is too bad.
@@guyspencer4322 Only if people are irresponsible. In the UK it is regulated that manufacturers of batteries must include recycling labelling on the battery with instructions on how to dispose. Lithium based batteries are recyclable. If people throw them in the trash, it's because they are not following the guidelines.
There is almost total lack of reprocessing capability in the UK and Europe. At the moment such batteries are stockpiled whilst someone works out what to do with them.
Tesla is aiming for just under 100% of each of their batteries and there are battery recycling companies that are north of 90% for recycling a variety of automotive batteries and chemistries. Part of Tesla's plans involves recycling batteries to help reduce the costs of future batteries (10 years down the road... cheaper than mining and refining).
@Allen Loser The person operating the calculator is... a calculator. Just as the people who computed trajectories and orbits were called “computers” long before electronic computers were used. So the killer of dreams is, in fact, the calculator. Sira:1. Loser:0. I appreciate that Sira included numbers to help us understand the opportunities and limitations of aluminium/air batteries. Time will tell whether these batteries succeed in the marketplace. But I think Sira made a killer vid! Thank you Sira!
And very true! Like: people get excited by antimatter as of you could dig it from the ground... Or hydrogen is gas pipes. Why would you electrolise water in a remote location and send extremely flammable and explosive hydrogen (natural gas is much more fault-tolerant)? You can safely send electricity and electrolise water precisely where it is needed.
She jokes, but it's so true though. I've had somewhere between 5-10 investment/side hustle/business start-up ideas in my life which have been defeated by the calculator before I even started... BUT when the maths checks out, damn what a feeling!
Theoretically, the Aluminium Air Batteries might sound good, but it might make sense for large commercial vehicles to start off because end users wouldn't care about all this hassle. That said, I definitely believe that Tesla would have already started on the next battery tech that might be in public a few years later. Very nicely explained.
@@grantadamson3478 The news? There's some talk on solid state batteries, talk on getting away from using lithium, as well as general changes and improvements to the way they work, the materials used, increasing their capacity, lifespan, etc... Samsung is working on some battery breakthroughs too fwiw. I honestly believe we're more likely to get something from them first. Musk is spread too thin and tends to prematurely dismiss certain innovations as impossible. Useless rant: Ex, he was just on Rogan talking about how solor will never surpass 25% efficiency, but there's a company working towards a theoretical 50%, having already achieved a figure in the 30s. And musk is in the solar business. His dismissive believe halted his advancement in solar tech and shows they're obviously not working on it. Apply that to his take on batteries and Samsung looks to be the bigger future innovator
In British Columbia Canada we have a company called Harbour Air that is in the process of getting their electrically converted de Havilland Beaver aircraft for service. There are a number of companies looking into using hydrogen fuel cells to drive the electric motors. As aircraft a very weight sensitive a small unit to what she was referring may work as well on the shorter flights as it beats Lithium ion.
Random Canadian here. It makes me so happy to see such outstanding and insightful technical content showing up on my youtube feed from India. :) You've got a gift for the understandable explanation of such complex subjects. Thanks so much!
Very well explained! I get the impression that, while it doesn't look practical for vehicles, it will find many other applications, including energy storage.
Someone is really bad at math... substance with 8.6Wh/g yields only 1.2Wh/g (~14%), then takes 15Wh/g (12500%) to get back to the start. That's an overall 8% efficiency. That's total crap! Li-ion might be 1/6th the _usable_ energy density, but it doesn't take 12.5 times as much energy to recharge it. Unless you have a super-secret, uber-efficient method to produce aluminium, this is all just madness. "Buring" AL is just crazy. The expense (and pollution) of generating it is why we're so keen on recycling what's already processed. Hydrogen is a better storage medium, and water is very hard to break apart. (yes, the fuel cell is rather expensive, but I'm not recycling it every 1000km) Saying "zero emission _vehicle"_ is infinitely misleading. Sure, the car doesn't spew anything, but recycling the sludge out of the battery _sure as [censored] does._ (I can't speak about India, but in the US, car batteries [lead and lithium] get reused/recycled. Yes, cellphone/laptop/tool batteries just get tossed in the trash, because people don't know any better, and can't be bothered.)
I like it. I'm very impressed with the presentation. Very good pros and cons. Very good explaining on all sides. Very green. Very eco friendly. I'm sold to this concept.
I like it when she jokes around and add libs with matey asides i could just sit here admiring her figures while she reads her shopping list and i would not mind at all.
@@yootoober2009 . The liquid metal storage that was recently on this channel is a much better option for fixed power storage. It doesn't appear to have any lifetime.
While I'm skeptical, I do hope Phinergy succeeds. The amount of energy storage needed to complete the transition to sustainable energy is truly massive.
As someone that lives in a region where temperatures stay below freezing (for water) for months at a time I have to wonder about both the efficiency of the battery and whether or not the electrolyte would just freeze and shatter the casing altogether. Whup never mind. a quick google check gave me my answer. (Liquid Alum begins to crystallize near 30º F and freezes around 9º F.) As most parking is unheated. This means the battery would be less than useless for large portions of the year in temperate or colder regions.
There is nowhere to go in the winter anyway, right? 😁 Some sort of antifreeze might be added to address the issue. Or maybe a different electrolyte altogether for cold regions.
Sounds like Al/Air batteries would make sense in aviation where gravimetric density is the primary concern and maintenance infrastructures are already robust. i.e. Changing out the anode for every flight will not be a huge deal if the flight is 4 hours. Anyone else subscribed just to hear her voice? :)
The efficiency of this battery is more similar to H2 fuel cell efficiency, as it takes 15 kwh of electricity to produce 1kg of Aluminium, but that 1 kg will only give 1.2 kwh of electricity for the car. This is grossly inefficient compared with lithium ion batteries. Also, the aluminium air battery becomes heavier as it reacts with o2 (43kg anode becomes 125kg alumina). This alumina must have a significantly greater volume than the aluminium, requiring the removal of alumina sludge every 300 km's. I like the idea though and there will no doubt be some suitable applications.
@@noncalamari Luddite! Just kidding. I get what you are saying, but, you basically do that now by filling your car with gas and changing the oil. Unless you already have an EV.
@@noncalamari why do I need to remove the sludge or fill water? Make a 300 km cell that lives at a gas station and in out swap I'm on my way and someone picks up the modules for cleaning. They get 10 uses out of cleaning and I get a fill in under a minute.
@@eoinoconnell185 Its no lord of the flies but its true that the majority of the population lacks basic services whilst the few rich politically connected elites have a standard of living blindingly ahead of the rest of the population creating a wealth gap not seen since the Pharaohs of Ancient Egypt.
Thank you for this. It explains in depth a technology I've been following for years now, and now I can link to it when arguing with people about it. 😁 Also, I like your earrings.
11:39 Did they intentionally choose a name that made the acronym "ASS"? It could have been Anode Swap Facility, Anode Trade Station, Cassette Swap Station. This had to be on purpose.
The problem with a single, large battery is there has to be some charge to get it to the replacement point. If you have, say, three anodes, you can replace two when you have started on the third. Plus they will be lighter.
Good idea. But I think the last thing mentioned might be the best. A fixed Lithium battery for day to day, say a 30-40KWh one, then an aluminium one for long range a few times a year.
I was thinking that, too. Mostly to make the Al-anode lighter, so it can be handled easier. And maybe, different vehicles might have different number of standard cells and Al-anodes would be compatible for all vehicles.
Thanks for a very watchable video - good to see a balanced perspective on this topic, pros and cons, and taking enough time to look at the implications in a bit more detail rather than the usual superficial hype.
Hello Sira, very well structured presentation as always. I noticed near the end of the video (~12:10) you mention the production of hydrogen during the reaction but the formula you show earlier (~10:00) is not correctly balanced and does not show all the products on the right side, especially hydrogen. Also, you might want to look into the emerging carbon-free technology (Elysis process) to refine aluminium that would solve the greenhouse gas problem of recycling Al2O3 from the cassettes after use. Thumbs-up! Cheers!
Even 7 cents/km is a high operating cost. That is 4x the cost of the electricity to charge a battery EV. In mpg equivalent cost 0.07/km is like having a 30mpg vehicle when gasoline is $3.50/gal.
Aluminum - air will never compete with grid costs. (Unless you were in Texas last week) but it can compete with gasoline and other transportable fuels.
@@GRSG Not even close. Alumium requires too much energy to recycle, if we had Nuclear Fusion (and the corrispondingly cheap AF electricity) sure, but otherwise even biodiesel is cheaper. You have to 1) Reprocess the spent battery with a few Kwh of electricity, most of which will be lost as heat 2) reassemble the cassette, 3) get the small fraction of charge the cassette gives. You throw any sort of enviromental tax at these things and the cost will go up exponentially. Aside from emergancy power (like something you can crack open to charge your phone out in the woods if you need to call someone) I don't see it having a purpose that biofuel or hydrogen wouldn't do better and cheaper.
@@GRSG I'm not the one saying never. Thermodynamics is the one saying never. Energy density is the *only* thing aluminum has going for it. Most applications have adapted to Li-ion just fine. Li-ion can be recharged a few thousand times, aluminum-air is one and done. then it takes several times the battery's capacity to 'recharge' said battery, every, single, tine.
Have you factored the cost of replacing lithium battery? Lithium battery is expensive and have to be replaced every several years. You may only have to pay 2 cents per mile now, but when the battery is worn, you have to spend tens of thousand dollar for replacement, which would be a big budget shock. With aluminum air battery on the other hand, you pay it in installment. It's more resemble to gas refueling.
I've worked for large warehouses that run electric power equipment and do their own battery swapping. Between the simple set-up required to do it and putting people with such cars on a subscription style pay module, you can get such units swapped out in less time that it typically takes to pay for gas. Use a car wash style system with a tap card pay system and you can completely automated the whole thing and the customer never has to get out of their vehicle.
I love hearing about new types of batteries. Myself, I've been experimenting with earthen thermal batteries that store heat, their cost being dirt cheap... haha yeah I know bad pun.. but seriously, storing thermal not electric energy is something often ignored. Loved your video, thank you soo much, you're a fantastic presenter and absolutely gorgeous. I love watching your videos! Keep it up! Cheers from Canada!
Why not just use a big stack of aluminium plates instead of a solid chunk for the anode? You'd avoid the whole ASS situation, by just making the pieces light enough for anybody to swap out by themselves. Plus you'd be able to 'top off' the battery, instead of running it all the way down each time. Mostly a serious point, partiality just a chance to mention the Anode Swap Station in a sentence 😂
You're talking about nonrechargeable batteries, essentially. When swapped, they have to be remanufactured. So instead of moving electricity to the car, we're moving batteries from the manufacturing facility to the car. discharging the batteries, then moving them back to the manufacturing facility to restore them to serviceability/full state of charge. I don't think you captured all of the costs per kilometer for the end user. Aluminum isn't very expensive, but battery swapping facilities are, and so is all of that material hauling between customer and manufacturer. Very capital-intensive, lots of moving parts, lots of maintenance and energy costs. When you spoke of disadvantages of metal-air batteries, you did not mention contaminants, which can get into the battery via water *and* air. I don't think there will be any way for metal-air batteries - nonrechargeable - to compete with L-ion. Rechargeable batteries, where only the electricity has to be moved around, is going to beat it hands down for cost and convenience.
From her numbers 1 kg of Al stores 4kwh of energy, and needs 12-15 kwh to reprocess the Al Oxide back to Aluminum. So we have a 25-33% efficiency, similar to H2 for the full cycle. Al is simpler to store than high pressurized H2. But it gets heavier compared to Hydrogen the bigger the H2 tank can get.
@@Psi-Storm Good points. But the main takeaway isn't about energy efficiency . The main takeaway is, it's a battery that can only be recharged at a factory. So you use it once, then yank it out and replace it, and send the pack back to the factory. Even if the recharging process were 95% efficient, which it is not, this is a business model that can't succeed. It's insane. The way forward is to move electricity to the car. We have the grid. Let's use it.
Lithium ion batteries will eventually have a closed look, given the value of the materials. It's far cheaper to harvest minerals. ....from returned batteries than from a hole in the ground in the middle of nowhere.
Ahhhhhhh, the semi-scientific media hype ... the lifeblood of investor fleecing and the gospel of the Green Religion. Smells a lot like "Solar Roadways" to me.
why not divide the cassette in two, weight is halved and when one is depleted the car can still keep going and the weight becomes manageable for a person to swap the half-cassette?
That was my question it’s unclear how the design is such that the anode couldn’t be chunked down to a user manageable size. But also what is the safety risk and damage risk of user doing this action? The other factor may be that users can’t handle the process in terms of following process.
I thought about it, too. Why can't the cassette be only one third of the size so that the weight is around 40 to 50 kgs, and the range is one third also, that is around 325 to 350 kms. 325 kms is a decent range and 45 kgs weight is mangeable.
Good presentation, however I think it would be nice if: 1. At the start of the presentation do introduce yourself at least with your name or pen name. That's good etiquette. 2. Since you have taken the pains to go in details, you might consider having a reference PDF file of your calculations so the viewer can download it. It's not possible to see and absorb in 5 seconds the small script. 3. A bit of discussion on pros and cons of having a smaller (and lighter) Aluminium cassette would have been better. That would make it convenient to let user change the batteries himself (like a tyre). That also impacts the calculations that you have shown. Incidentally smaller aluminium cassettes have another major advantage. 4. Kindly do not mix currencies. If you are focus is on India then Indian rupees and Indian rates should be used.
so, its not rechargeable, but has to be built again after it is used up, including all the waste and pollution that comes with it. im not realy sold on it. i guess its better than suck-squeeze-bang-blow, but i cant see it competing with maintenance free, rechargeable batteries that get recycled to 98% after 20+years of service in cars,houses and gridstorage.
@@GRSG that is my point, something has to be manufactured at a factory, shipped crosscountry, and then swaped into the car somewhere to replace the used up part. there is simply no way i can imagine, that you are doing all this while being more economical and/or less wasteful than just charging a batterie. but you might be able to challenge hydrogen with its laughable 27,3% efficiency in those niche cases where it makes sense, though.
My 2008 Prius does that suck-squeeze-bang-blow quite efficiently, which I bought it used for under $3k with 315,000 miles. Put over 50K miles on it, so far, with only oil changes. My cost of ownership trumps all electric vehicles.
"Why do we light firecrackers when we can just light candles or people or even wood?" I was like "Wait what the heck did I just heard" o_o!! Went back, activated the subs and "ohh it was paper 😅" I might need help :'v
Lithium-Ion batteries have one issue - they need Lithium: It is expensive, has limited production and some of the mines they are using child or slave labor. And last I heard, EV's only needed 5% of the production - the rest is in mobile phones, laptops and conventional (rechargeable) batteries. There is very little way we can sustain a EV revolution on that battery technology. Compare that to Aluminium: It used to be more expensive then Gold or Silver. But between the Hall-Héroult process and industrial energy production, it is so dirt cheap we are literally using it as _packaging material_ in our day and age. I use it as a example to show how progress in energy production or other seemingly unrelated fields can change the world. And the environmental footprint is mostly dependant on where we get the energy from - one thing we are working on.
A Football Stadium sized parabolic solar-thermal smelter out to do the trick. Build a prototype out of an existing stadium in an equitorial region. Courtesy of Archimedes.
@@buttafan4010The inefficiency won't go away by using a "stadium sized solar thermal smelter in an equitorial region". The same energy can be used in a more efficient way. You're still wasting it due to conversion, transportation and waste management.
@@brixomatic Perhaps ... I think that as long as we are producing aluminum products of any kind, that process of melting down recycled aluminum and smelting of bauxite ore can be accomplished using solar thermal smelter/blast furnaces instead of constructing hydro electric dams to produce electricity for the aluminum beer can industry. I advocate industrial scale solar thermal whenever even remotely relevant ... and sometimes seemingly less relevant. i.e. Protest shields should be hybrid parabolic shield/mirrors ... capable of melting ... large bronze outdoor displays ... and eliminating the presence of I.C.E. "A thousand points of light." - HWB Just sayin'.
This was a refreshingly splendid and informative presentation on the subject of the chemical science of the Aluminium Air battery. It was presented by a knowledgeable spokesperson. The Aluminium-Air battery is old technology. It has been used in places that need emergency power supply installations.
@@Geoffr524 , and the thread spools with a rubber band through the middle and a stick. I wanted to make one out of a power line spool and drive it to school.
“Lithium Ion batteries end up in land fill 98% of the time” just shot her credibility right there. While laptop batteries end up in land fill, there is so much value in car batteries that 98+% will be recylced after the end of their 20 to 40 year life. By not talking about what is likely to happen with EV batteries, she makes a disingenuous statement that casts doubt on everything else she said. No one wants to mess with installing batteries when in 10 years off peak excess Renewable energy might be $0.01 per kWh with means 60 cents to fill up your Model 3. Additionally EV will be needed enmasse to drawn down excessive peak during low demand. Better would be to allow EVs to charge for free or even get paid to suck energy off the grid when it peaks.
In this current moment in the US, Cars are the *only* industry that recycles them, unless you count buying used cells off Ebay for projects and ebike packs. People chuck electronics in the bin all the time, and have for years. EVs have only been cheap for the last 5 years or so, so their impact hasn't had a chance to change much. Actually Recycling in the US is garbage in general, what 'Recycling' we do have often amounts to 'put it on a boat to a 'reprocessing' center overseas so they can dump it into the ocean without us being the ones to look bad'.
@Colin Genge They amended this part of the video with a comment in this section, so kudos to them for making this correction. Their data was correct, I read in other academic sources that only 3% of LIBs are recycled currently, but it's indeed not relevant to this debate and allows some trolls an easy "gotcha!"... ;-)
@@DFX2KX Indeed, even in States that promote EVs, such as WA, recycling is often one single recycling bin where everything is mixed up, glass, paper, etc., but batteries are not allowed. This garbage, recyclable or not, is not shipping overseas anymore, as China has been refusing recycling garbage for several years now, for obvious health and pollution reasons, so States need to process it locally. Most States didn't have time to develop recycling centers of their own before the scrap policy changed, so sometimes, less recyclable stuff has been collected and more land-filled or burned. Anyway, another example of liberal Disunited States of America, each State setting their own standards and policies because recycling in Arizona _must_ be different from recycling in Oklahoma for whatever insane politician reasons, and I am not sure there to which of the two words does "insane" applies...
Come on, cars lithium-air batteries do NOT end up in landfills 98% of the times. Every single car manufacturer has an end-of-life reusing/recycling scheme.
Just talking about current situation. Though in retrospect, it is a little misleading.
The point we were trying to make was that the aluminium smelting process if much more mature.
I took that to mean lithium batteries in general, like little rechargeables, watch batteries, power tool batteries and phone batteries, I feel like the bulk of those get tossed in the trash. Which is too bad.
@@guyspencer4322 Only if people are irresponsible. In the UK it is regulated that manufacturers of batteries must include recycling labelling on the battery with instructions on how to dispose. Lithium based batteries are recyclable. If people throw them in the trash, it's because they are not following the guidelines.
There is almost total lack of reprocessing capability in the UK and Europe. At the moment such batteries are stockpiled whilst someone works out what to do with them.
Tesla is aiming for just under 100% of each of their batteries and there are battery recycling companies that are north of 90% for recycling a variety of automotive batteries and chemistries. Part of Tesla's plans involves recycling batteries to help reduce the costs of future batteries (10 years down the road... cheaper than mining and refining).
This is such an underrated channel
I don't understand much of what she saying, but she's so gorgeous
Indeed
No kidding, don't understand why this channel doesn't have millions of subscribers with the expertise exhibited in the videos.
This channel profile picture is strange
Because it is garbage.
"The slayer of dreams...the calculator." Love your jokes, Sıra.
She always manages to slide one or two in per vid. Thanks, Sira!
Now that was hilarious!!! One of the funniest segues I've heard in a long time.
@Allen Loser The person operating the calculator is... a calculator. Just as the people who computed trajectories and orbits were called “computers” long before electronic computers were used. So the killer of dreams is, in fact, the calculator. Sira:1. Loser:0. I appreciate that Sira included numbers to help us understand the opportunities and limitations of aluminium/air batteries. Time will tell whether these batteries succeed in the marketplace. But I think Sira made a killer vid! Thank you Sira!
And very true! Like: people get excited by antimatter as of you could dig it from the ground...
Or hydrogen is gas pipes. Why would you electrolise water in a remote location and send extremely flammable and explosive hydrogen (natural gas is much more fault-tolerant)? You can safely send electricity and electrolise water precisely where it is needed.
She jokes, but it's so true though. I've had somewhere between 5-10 investment/side hustle/business start-up ideas in my life which have been defeated by the calculator before I even started... BUT when the maths checks out, damn what a feeling!
Theoretically, the Aluminium Air Batteries might sound good, but it might make sense for large commercial vehicles to start off because end users wouldn't care about all this hassle. That said, I definitely believe that Tesla would have already started on the next battery tech that might be in public a few years later. Very nicely explained.
Hi amit ✌️
What evidence do you have to base your belief that Tesla has already started on the next battery tech?
@@grantadamson3478 The news? There's some talk on solid state batteries, talk on getting away from using lithium, as well as general changes and improvements to the way they work, the materials used, increasing their capacity, lifespan, etc...
Samsung is working on some battery breakthroughs too fwiw. I honestly believe we're more likely to get something from them first. Musk is spread too thin and tends to prematurely dismiss certain innovations as impossible.
Useless rant:
Ex, he was just on Rogan talking about how solor will never surpass 25% efficiency, but there's a company working towards a theoretical 50%, having already achieved a figure in the 30s. And musk is in the solar business. His dismissive believe halted his advancement in solar tech and shows they're obviously not working on it. Apply that to his take on batteries and Samsung looks to be the bigger future innovator
@@soulife8383 There is plenty of noise about new tech but very little substance. And none of this is coming from Tesla. Which was my question.
@@grantadamson3478 "None of it came from Tesla"
That's not accurate. A simple Google search would have revealed that.
A better market could be light electric aircraft & delivery drones gaining a 6x better local range than Li-ion.
That was exactly my first thought until she mentioned that the electrolyte has to be replenished regularly...
In British Columbia Canada we have a company called Harbour Air that is in the process of getting their electrically converted de Havilland Beaver aircraft for service. There are a number of companies looking into using hydrogen fuel cells to drive the electric motors. As aircraft a very weight sensitive a small unit to what she was referring may work as well on the shorter flights as it beats Lithium ion.
@@HermannKerr Hydrogen is 3 x lighter than gasoline but takes up more space. Perhaps this tech falls somewhere in between.
@@mmatt Replenishing could be automated with a small tank in the airplane
I'm working on it
Mesmerizing. I'm sure I am not the only one here that wishes Sira had been his math teacher in school - I would have LOVED going to school!
Random Canadian here. It makes me so happy to see such outstanding and insightful technical content showing up on my youtube feed from India. :) You've got a gift for the understandable explanation of such complex subjects. Thanks so much!
TH-cam today I’m proud of your algorithm. This is gem.
A video from fav TH-cam channel at midnight. I know what I must do. Insomniac me don't know if i strength to do it.
Millions of insomniacs like me bobbing their heads in agreement. The only answer is watch it.
You know we all have a bit of a crush on you... Aluminium
Outstanding presentation and Sciencing demonstration.
This video is not only informative, but your entire presentation and tone is super engaging. Liked.
Very well explained! I get the impression that, while it doesn't look practical for vehicles, it will find many other applications, including energy storage.
Just hearing that word takes me back, cassette!😁
I heard you laugh when you said Anode Swap Station. Caught your mind voice 🤣
Someone is really bad at math... substance with 8.6Wh/g yields only 1.2Wh/g (~14%), then takes 15Wh/g (12500%) to get back to the start. That's an overall 8% efficiency. That's total crap! Li-ion might be 1/6th the _usable_ energy density, but it doesn't take 12.5 times as much energy to recharge it. Unless you have a super-secret, uber-efficient method to produce aluminium, this is all just madness. "Buring" AL is just crazy. The expense (and pollution) of generating it is why we're so keen on recycling what's already processed. Hydrogen is a better storage medium, and water is very hard to break apart. (yes, the fuel cell is rather expensive, but I'm not recycling it every 1000km) Saying "zero emission _vehicle"_ is infinitely misleading. Sure, the car doesn't spew anything, but recycling the sludge out of the battery _sure as [censored] does._ (I can't speak about India, but in the US, car batteries [lead and lithium] get reused/recycled. Yes, cellphone/laptop/tool batteries just get tossed in the trash, because people don't know any better, and can't be bothered.)
Well put! I think you would like "Thunderf00t"'s channel he has a video debunking aluminum batteries brings up a lot of your points.
Underappreciated comment. You saved me from composing and writing what you wrote.
Ya absolutely. What do u think about solid state battery with ceramic electrolyte?
@@StinkPickle4000 do you have the link to the Thunderf00t video you mentioned here please?
@@GRSG "1500 mile SUPER-battery: BUSTED!"
I like it. I'm very impressed with the presentation. Very good pros and cons. Very good explaining on all sides. Very green. Very eco friendly. I'm sold to this concept.
I like it when she jokes around and add libs with matey asides i could just sit here admiring her figures while she reads her shopping list and i would not mind at all.
This sounds like it would be a viable alternative for trucks, buses and to replace diesel electric trains.
and energy storage for power supply grids to replace oil, coal, and diesel peaker plants...
@@yootoober2009 . The liquid metal storage that was recently on this channel is a much better option for fixed power storage. It doesn't appear to have any lifetime.
Aluminium smelting produces CO2 uses fossil fuels and relatively expensive
She sounds, looks and acts professional. So refreshing
Thank you come again.
While I'm skeptical, I do hope Phinergy succeeds. The amount of energy storage needed to complete the transition to sustainable energy is truly massive.
Massive and exciting that we are witnessing the birth of a new industry..
There is “company” in the UK doing the same thing, with similar numbers. Nice to see more people are on the same path
As someone that lives in a region where temperatures stay below freezing (for water) for months at a time I have to wonder about both the efficiency of the battery and whether or not the electrolyte would just freeze and shatter the casing altogether.
Whup never mind. a quick google check gave me my answer. (Liquid Alum begins to crystallize near 30º F and freezes around 9º F.)
As most parking is unheated. This means the battery would be less than useless for large portions of the year in temperate or colder regions.
Or you build cheap ass power hookups and the battery keeps itself just warm enough, OMG
There is nowhere to go in the winter anyway, right? 😁
Some sort of antifreeze might be added to address the issue. Or maybe a different electrolyte altogether for cold regions.
These sound great for household use! Both for people who have solar panels or for people who live in areas with frequent blackouts (like myself)
Sounds like Al/Air batteries would make sense in aviation where gravimetric density is the primary concern and maintenance infrastructures are already robust. i.e. Changing out the anode for every flight will not be a huge deal if the flight is 4 hours. Anyone else subscribed just to hear her voice? :)
gravimetric density.... ugh, shut up
"Gravimetric density"....homeboy trying to flex for the internet.
The efficiency of this battery is more similar to H2 fuel cell efficiency, as it takes 15 kwh of electricity to produce 1kg of Aluminium, but that 1 kg will only give 1.2 kwh of electricity for the car. This is grossly inefficient compared with lithium ion batteries.
Also, the aluminium air battery becomes heavier as it reacts with o2 (43kg anode becomes 125kg alumina). This alumina must have a significantly greater volume than the aluminium, requiring the removal of alumina sludge every 300 km's.
I like the idea though and there will no doubt be some suitable applications.
DRDO-ISRO-IIT Kanpur collaborating on metal ion and metal air for next gen-battery.
Neega Please
Like a giant AA battery u have to switch.
If they scale it for 20 pound modules and I can change it at home garage. Thats not a bad idea.
A giant AA battery that needs periodic watering -- and draining. Not sure I'd be down for that.
@@noncalamari Luddite! Just kidding. I get what you are saying, but, you basically do that now by filling your car with gas and changing the oil. Unless you already have an EV.
@@noncalamari why do I need to remove the sludge or fill water? Make a 300 km cell that lives at a gas station and in out swap I'm on my way and someone picks up the modules for cleaning. They get 10 uses out of cleaning and I get a fill in under a minute.
Maybe four AA batteries.
Who you think is gonna do this?
Honestly, one of my favorite technical youtubes.
Love this show, from Zimbabwe Sub Saharan Africa
Is Zimbabwe as bad as it appears through the media ?
@@eoinoconnell185 Its no lord of the flies but its true that the majority of the population lacks basic services whilst the few rich politically connected elites have a standard of living blindingly ahead of the rest of the population creating a wealth gap not seen since the Pharaohs of Ancient Egypt.
@@anthonyanth8368 thanks for the first hand insight. I used to wonder too
What a marvel of a video! Such a well laid out explanation!
Good Lord.... finally something to be excited for.... welcome back Mam👍
Another very interesting and enjoyable video. Brilliantly presented in a friendly, non-officially overbearing manner, thanks.
Thank you for this. It explains in depth a technology I've been following for years now, and now I can link to it when arguing with people about it. 😁
Also, I like your earrings.
All I was wondering is your retro hairstyle. Throughout your video I was also appreciating your neatly displayed knowledge
11:39 Did they intentionally choose a name that made the acronym "ASS"? It could have been Anode Swap Facility, Anode Trade Station, Cassette Swap Station. This had to be on purpose.
See above for the sliding in of the occasional joke by Sira. Deffo not an axscident.
Anode and cathode battery
Wow, I have watched several videos on battery tech especially metal ion ones and yours was the best. Keep going mam
The problem with a single, large battery is there has to be some charge to get it to the replacement point. If you have, say, three anodes, you can replace two when you have started on the third. Plus they will be lighter.
Good idea. But I think the last thing mentioned might be the best. A fixed Lithium battery for day to day, say a 30-40KWh one, then an aluminium one for long range a few times a year.
I was thinking that, too. Mostly to make the Al-anode lighter, so it can be handled easier. And maybe, different vehicles might have different number of standard cells and Al-anodes would be compatible for all vehicles.
Thanks for a very watchable video - good to see a balanced perspective on this topic, pros and cons, and taking enough time to look at the implications in a bit more detail rather than the usual superficial hype.
Please don't change the name of the channel, this Luddite won't know where to go 😂
I don't know, it gives me the urge to go break up a loom...
@@scottfranco1962 They took our jerbs!
This channel definitely deserves more subs. 👍🏻
Omg that voice. I could listen to her all day
Hello Sira, very well structured presentation as always. I noticed near the end of the video (~12:10) you mention the production of hydrogen during the reaction but the formula you show earlier (~10:00) is not correctly balanced and does not show all the products on the right side, especially hydrogen.
Also, you might want to look into the emerging carbon-free technology (Elysis process) to refine aluminium that would solve the greenhouse gas problem of recycling Al2O3 from the cassettes after use.
Thumbs-up! Cheers!
Even 7 cents/km is a high operating cost. That is 4x the cost of the electricity to charge a battery EV. In mpg equivalent cost 0.07/km is like having a 30mpg vehicle when gasoline is $3.50/gal.
Aluminum - air will never compete with grid costs. (Unless you were in Texas last week) but it can compete with gasoline and other transportable fuels.
@@GRSG Not even close. Alumium requires too much energy to recycle, if we had Nuclear Fusion (and the corrispondingly cheap AF electricity) sure, but otherwise even biodiesel is cheaper. You have to 1) Reprocess the spent battery with a few Kwh of electricity, most of which will be lost as heat 2) reassemble the cassette, 3) get the small fraction of charge the cassette gives. You throw any sort of enviromental tax at these things and the cost will go up exponentially.
Aside from emergancy power (like something you can crack open to charge your phone out in the woods if you need to call someone) I don't see it having a purpose that biofuel or hydrogen wouldn't do better and cheaper.
@@DFX2KX Never say never. Watch this space. Comparing to BBL equivalency, Aluminium can make it. And way better than Li-ion.
@@GRSG I'm not the one saying never. Thermodynamics is the one saying never. Energy density is the *only* thing aluminum has going for it. Most applications have adapted to Li-ion just fine.
Li-ion can be recharged a few thousand times, aluminum-air is one and done. then it takes several times the battery's capacity to 'recharge' said battery, every, single, tine.
Have you factored the cost of replacing lithium battery? Lithium battery is expensive and have to be replaced every several years. You may only have to pay 2 cents per mile now, but when the battery is worn, you have to spend tens of thousand dollar for replacement, which would be a big budget shock.
With aluminum air battery on the other hand, you pay it in installment. It's more resemble to gas refueling.
Always a joy listening to you.
You did a video about oppo's fake reviews on Amazon, after that your all your smartphone reviews are gone, why ?
Sounds like Aluminium is the perfect way to store Energy from an over supply of electricity from renewables
All batteries are. We just need them all networked.
@@crhu319 "All batteries are" if you despise the environment, I guess
Heavy Accent throughout video, but @ 1:55 switches it up. " what are you going to do"? Lol
The doctor is good alongside Marty in Back to the Future when he used soda cans as a "fuel" in his car.
You lost me at "add water and drain the sludge every few hundred miles". Hope y'all figure out the snags.
Good vid. Good Luck.
Sludge?.....would that be the aluminium being converted to sludge as it gets used up?
One Of The Underrated Channels On YT. More Power To You Sira.
I've worked for large warehouses that run electric power equipment and do their own battery swapping. Between the simple set-up required to do it and putting people with such cars on a subscription style pay module, you can get such units swapped out in less time that it typically takes to pay for gas. Use a car wash style system with a tap card pay system and you can completely automated the whole thing and the customer never has to get out of their vehicle.
Okay I think we need to put the calculators away for a minute and dig a little deeper into this sparkler powered car idea!
Its nice that these videos show the good AND the bad of the technologies. Most tech channels are very bias and misleading. Thank-you
Glad you have a new video. Your voice and tenner is a joy to listen to. Thanks.
what a great explainer. Elegantly done.
I strait up love this channel! Anyways super honest about the subjects!
I find her to be an absolutely charming speaker :) This channel is awesome. I like that Aluminum Swap Station acronym lol.
I am here since this channel was stuck at 48k subscribers. Good to see that increasing to 1.2 lakh👍
Great presentation.
Another superb video!
Please note that the symbol for "kilogram" is "kg" (all lower case).
The capital "K" is reserved for "Kelvin".
I love hearing about new types of batteries. Myself, I've been experimenting with earthen thermal batteries that store heat, their cost being dirt cheap... haha yeah I know bad pun.. but seriously, storing thermal not electric energy is something often ignored. Loved your video, thank you soo much, you're a fantastic presenter and absolutely gorgeous. I love watching your videos! Keep it up! Cheers from Canada!
According to the story, Jesus was never a "twinkle" in Mary's eye... Virgin birth and all that...
I was thinking the same thing.....I don't think Mary and the angel did more than chat......
Why not just use a big stack of aluminium plates instead of a solid chunk for the anode? You'd avoid the whole ASS situation, by just making the pieces light enough for anybody to swap out by themselves. Plus you'd be able to 'top off' the battery, instead of running it all the way down each time.
Mostly a serious point, partiality just a chance to mention the Anode Swap Station in a sentence 😂
Had not heard about this type of fuel cell. Hope more research goes into this tech. Seems a lot cleaner.
Really love your channel.
Have u heard about aluminium air fuel cell? Log9 materials,Phinergy
Thank you for the great video just one thing though may you link your sources in the description
You're talking about nonrechargeable batteries, essentially. When swapped, they have to be remanufactured. So instead of moving electricity to the car, we're moving batteries from the manufacturing facility to the car. discharging the batteries, then moving them back to the manufacturing facility to restore them to serviceability/full state of charge.
I don't think you captured all of the costs per kilometer for the end user. Aluminum isn't very expensive, but battery swapping facilities are, and so is all of that material hauling between customer and manufacturer. Very capital-intensive, lots of moving parts, lots of maintenance and energy costs.
When you spoke of disadvantages of metal-air batteries, you did not mention contaminants, which can get into the battery via water *and* air.
I don't think there will be any way for metal-air batteries - nonrechargeable - to compete with L-ion. Rechargeable batteries, where only the electricity has to be moved around, is going to beat it hands down for cost and convenience.
From her numbers 1 kg of Al stores 4kwh of energy, and needs 12-15 kwh to reprocess the Al Oxide back to Aluminum. So we have a 25-33% efficiency, similar to H2 for the full cycle. Al is simpler to store than high pressurized H2. But it gets heavier compared to Hydrogen the bigger the H2 tank can get.
@@Psi-Storm Good points.
But the main takeaway isn't about energy efficiency .
The main takeaway is, it's a battery that can only be recharged at a factory. So you use it once, then yank it out and replace it, and send the pack back to the factory.
Even if the recharging process were 95% efficient, which it is not, this is a business model that can't succeed. It's insane.
The way forward is to move electricity to the car. We have the grid. Let's use it.
Very good audio, thanks.
Best use case is for electric aeroplanes. Swapping can be done at airports
brilliant I always tought to get a battery out of metal oxidation and you make my wondering real
Lithium ion batteries will eventually have a closed look, given the value of the materials. It's far cheaper to harvest minerals. ....from returned batteries than from a hole in the ground in the middle of nowhere.
Lots of very thought provoking ideas raised here, and very well presented. I would have liked zinc/air to be contrasted as well.
Can't we just make several parts that don't weigh that much? So it's easier to swap them out?
Man I was subscribed to this channel when she had
50k and I love it 😁
I really like that you say stoichiometry instead of the usual "stock-iometey"
Simply fantastic explanation.excellent way of expressing facts.
I wonder if these batteries will be better solution for large semi truck, since they're lighter and energy dense.
Very good presentation. Thanks.
Ahhhhhhh, the semi-scientific media hype ... the lifeblood of investor fleecing and the gospel of the Green Religion. Smells a lot like "Solar Roadways" to me.
Best comment I've read on this video thread haha
@@Jarmezrocks Thanks!
3:00 as a Dane I thank you for the Carlsberg!
Probably
@@anthonyzanca3641 lol ;)
why not divide the cassette in two, weight is halved and when one is depleted the car can still keep going and the weight becomes manageable for a person to swap the half-cassette?
That was my question it’s unclear how the design is such that the anode couldn’t be chunked down to a user manageable size.
But also what is the safety risk and damage risk of user doing this action? The other factor may be that users can’t handle the process in terms of following process.
I thought about it, too. Why can't the cassette be only one third of the size so that the weight is around 40 to 50 kgs, and the range is one third also, that is around 325 to 350 kms. 325 kms is a decent range and 45 kgs weight is mangeable.
Thank you for the details. Be well.
This is one of the best things I've ever watched.
Fantastic information. You are great. Thanks for the video.
Good presentation, however I think it would be nice if:
1. At the start of the presentation do introduce yourself at least with your name or pen name. That's good etiquette.
2. Since you have taken the pains to go in details, you might consider having a reference PDF file of your calculations so the viewer can download it. It's not possible to see and absorb in 5 seconds the small script.
3. A bit of discussion on pros and cons of having a smaller (and lighter) Aluminium cassette would have been better. That would make it convenient to let user change the batteries himself (like a tyre).
That also impacts the calculations that you have shown. Incidentally smaller aluminium cassettes have another major advantage.
4. Kindly do not mix currencies. If you are focus is on India then Indian rupees and Indian rates should be used.
Run two batteries - have a wide range of time to replace one.
I was promised flying cars 😔 but I love my electric smart fortwo.😊
Im good on having to go to a Anode Swap Station, that sounds like ass!
Your videos just keep getting better!!
so, its not rechargeable, but has to be built again after it is used up, including all the waste and pollution that comes with it.
im not realy sold on it. i guess its better than suck-squeeze-bang-blow, but i cant see it competing with maintenance free, rechargeable batteries that get recycled to 98% after 20+years of service in cars,houses and gridstorage.
Our Al-air battery is not rechargeable it it reloadable.
@@GRSG that is my point, something has to be manufactured at a factory, shipped crosscountry, and then swaped into the car somewhere to replace the used up part.
there is simply no way i can imagine, that you are doing all this while being more economical and/or less wasteful than just charging a batterie.
but you might be able to challenge hydrogen with its laughable 27,3% efficiency in those niche cases where it makes sense, though.
My 2008 Prius does that suck-squeeze-bang-blow quite efficiently, which I bought it used for under $3k with 315,000 miles. Put over 50K miles on it, so far, with only oil changes. My cost of ownership trumps all electric vehicles.
Aluminium is the most common metal on earth and the byproduct of fuel cell can be recycled back into the fuel cell itself
you aint sold on it because it doesnt even exist
One of the best TH-cam channel with great insight !
"Why do we light firecrackers when we can just light candles or people or even wood?"
I was like "Wait what the heck did I just heard" o_o!!
Went back, activated the subs and "ohh it was paper 😅"
I might need help :'v
Lithium-Ion batteries have one issue - they need Lithium: It is expensive, has limited production and some of the mines they are using child or slave labor. And last I heard, EV's only needed 5% of the production - the rest is in mobile phones, laptops and conventional (rechargeable) batteries. There is very little way we can sustain a EV revolution on that battery technology.
Compare that to Aluminium: It used to be more expensive then Gold or Silver. But between the Hall-Héroult process and industrial energy production, it is so dirt cheap we are literally using it as _packaging material_ in our day and age. I use it as a example to show how progress in energy production or other seemingly unrelated fields can change the world. And the environmental footprint is mostly dependant on where we get the energy from - one thing we are working on.
In short: High energy density but tedious handling and energy inefficient to produce.
A Football Stadium sized parabolic solar-thermal smelter out to do the trick. Build a prototype out of an existing stadium in an equitorial region. Courtesy of Archimedes.
@@buttafan4010The inefficiency won't go away by using a "stadium sized solar thermal smelter in an equitorial region". The same energy can be used in a more efficient way. You're still wasting it due to conversion, transportation and waste management.
@@brixomatic Perhaps ... I think that as long as we are producing aluminum products of any kind, that process of melting down recycled aluminum and smelting of bauxite ore can be accomplished using solar thermal smelter/blast furnaces instead of constructing hydro electric dams to produce electricity for the aluminum beer can industry. I advocate industrial scale solar thermal whenever even remotely relevant ... and sometimes seemingly less relevant. i.e. Protest shields should be hybrid parabolic shield/mirrors ... capable of melting ... large bronze outdoor displays ... and eliminating the presence of I.C.E. "A thousand points of light." - HWB Just sayin'.
This was a refreshingly splendid and informative presentation on the subject of the chemical science of the Aluminium Air battery. It was presented by a knowledgeable spokesperson. The Aluminium-Air battery is old technology. It has been used in places that need emergency power supply installations.
We could also try Rubber Band Motors, but then you would need Wind-UP Stations.
You just stole my childhood dream.
@@anatomicallymodernhuman5175 Yep and I still remember the days long ago, where I had a balsa-wood airplane with a propeller and a long rubber band.
@@Geoffr524 , and the thread spools with a rubber band through the middle and a stick. I wanted to make one out of a power line spool and drive it to school.
Interesting and fun presentation.
A few times a year? I can drive 1000 km in one day. Is this a joke? This technology is going nowhere.
if you're doing that everyday... you're not living your best life..
6:17 That is the subway in IISc campus.
“Lithium Ion batteries end up in land fill 98% of the time” just shot her credibility right there. While laptop batteries end up in land fill, there is so much value in car batteries that 98+% will be recylced after the end of their 20 to 40 year life. By not talking about what is likely to happen with EV batteries, she makes a disingenuous statement that casts doubt on everything else she said.
No one wants to mess with installing batteries when in 10 years off peak excess Renewable energy might be $0.01 per kWh with means 60 cents to fill up your Model 3. Additionally EV will be needed enmasse to drawn down excessive peak during low demand. Better would be to allow EVs to charge for free or even get paid to suck energy off the grid when it peaks.
In this current moment in the US, Cars are the *only* industry that recycles them, unless you count buying used cells off Ebay for projects and ebike packs. People chuck electronics in the bin all the time, and have for years. EVs have only been cheap for the last 5 years or so, so their impact hasn't had a chance to change much.
Actually Recycling in the US is garbage in general, what 'Recycling' we do have often amounts to 'put it on a boat to a 'reprocessing' center overseas so they can dump it into the ocean without us being the ones to look bad'.
@Colin Genge They amended this part of the video with a comment in this section, so kudos to them for making this correction. Their data was correct, I read in other academic sources that only 3% of LIBs are recycled currently, but it's indeed not relevant to this debate and allows some trolls an easy "gotcha!"... ;-)
Yea, using that stat against Lithium BEVs is clearly biased.
@@DFX2KX Indeed, even in States that promote EVs, such as WA, recycling is often one single recycling bin where everything is mixed up, glass, paper, etc., but batteries are not allowed.
This garbage, recyclable or not, is not shipping overseas anymore, as China has been refusing recycling garbage for several years now, for obvious health and pollution reasons, so States need to process it locally. Most States didn't have time to develop recycling centers of their own before the scrap policy changed, so sometimes, less recyclable stuff has been collected and more land-filled or burned.
Anyway, another example of liberal Disunited States of America, each State setting their own standards and policies because recycling in Arizona _must_ be different from recycling in Oklahoma for whatever insane politician reasons, and I am not sure there to which of the two words does "insane" applies...
Car batteries are not lithium ion. They are lead acid batteries.