I think the issue with coalition victory is that its not a combo pieve, its just one card plus your deck, and you win. If you have a 5 color commander, you want him on rhe board. A 5 color commander deck wants duel lands. And then bam 1 card and you win. The only way the opponent can prevent this is by preventing you from building your board. Its not super broken, just super unfun
It also means that if someone plays a five color commander that commander will get killed at every opportunity, just in case they have Coalition Victory.
On the legacy entries: - Mind twist is probably not playable in the current meta, and hasn’t been for a while. The card is pretty much either unplayable or miserable, so I don’t mind keeping it banned because it’s not really preventing interesting decks using it from existing. Hymn does a good job at imitating a reasonable X value version of this, another reason we aren’t missing much by keeping it banned. Probably wouldn’t do anything with an unban, but not adding anything of value. - Zirda + monoliths is too easy of a combo even with the higher mana investment. The decks that play it are usually more limited on cards than mana, so zirda being always accessible helps their mulligans too much. This card would be fine if it was reprinted as a non-companion, but it makes the combo way too linear as is. Like mind twist, the deck it creates is not fun for the format even if it would be power appropriate. Infinite mana off of paradox engine is already a solid deck in a similar space with more interesting lines and counter play. - Frantic Search is on the edge. I’d be fine testing it out with a probationary unban, but it could make the decks it’s in very strong. I also personally think high tide is less fun as a strategy than most other storm-adjacent options because it’s usually fundamentally non-deterministic because of its reliance of wheels and can be very slow. - Earthcraft is likely completely safe; remove reserve list!
@@JohnFromAccounting yes, they should. Shahrazad is the poster-child for "this is an unfun card" and so it is banned (not restricted) in literally every format, despite the payoff actually being pretty bad. In fact, arguably, it's an awful card for any format specifically *because* the payoff is so bad.
PLEASE remove the reserve list, weve seen cards come off it and the original printings never lose value. I mean for gods sake look at birds of paradise, they are everywhere and the original printing is still almost $4000
@@chickennoodles4491 there's quite a few, actually, but for a variety of reasons. The 7 "culturally insensitive" cards that were banned in every format are pretty bad to play (Crusade was playable, but anthems are a dying card archetype) but make the game unfun for IRL reasons. Falling Star is banned in every format for accessibility reasons despite never being remotely viable as a card. And of course, we can't forget about Ante cards being banned in every format for *being potentially illegal* (depending where you are) despite very few of them being remotely playable in a modern context. Being "too good", is just one potential reason for banning cards, and "being unfun to play and resolve" is another such reason.
Okay on the two commander bans other than biorhythm: The reason why Coalition Victory is banned isn’t because of the power, it’s because commander is based on fun and interactive multiplayer games and coalition victory is like the dumbest way a casual game could end. The issue is that it sits in a powerlevel spot where casual players could easily justify playing it, and its just so obnoxiously boring, and makes the rest of the game feel like a waste. Yeah there are a ton of TWO card insta-win combos in commander, but those are two cards out of 99 that you need to find. Also just becuase Thoracle is legal doesnt mean that coalition victory would be good for the format. Everyone knows thoracle should be banned too. On Sway of the Stars, the issue isn’t winning with that card, as that takes effort and luck. The problem is using that card to not lose. The issue isn’t casting the card to win, its casting the card as a board wipe that just makes everyone start all over again. It’s basically banned for the same reason shaharazaad is, it prevents the game from ending in a timely manner. Nobody would care if someone cast that card and won, the problem is casting the card and not winning, and then forcing everyone to replay the whole game. I don’t feel biorhythm should stay banned because if you’re not playing creatures, then you should be playing the countermagic to prevent yourself from being oneshot anyway. And also it takes a ton of setup to even win with the card in the first place
The problem with Sway of the Stars is that while it can be used as a set-up to win the game, it can also be a 'lol the game just restarted' card that just kills all the momentum in the game.
Haaard disagree on Sway of the Stars. The power level of the card may have lowered relative to what you can do with 10 mana, but *any* "restart the game" style effects are just plain unfun to resolve.
Exactly. The two most similar effects, Worldfire and Karn Liberated, have distinct differences that make them more fun. Worldfire puts the game into Sudden Death mode while Karn says you restart the game with a distinct advantage.
Gotta hard disagree about frantic search, especially with your statement that it wouldn’t significantly boost storm and high tide decks. Have you SEEN what that card does in vintage cube? It’s absolutely broken
@@adamtobiasz8793a high-powered limited environment offered every few months on Magic Online. A curated list of cards with the power 9 and various heavy hitters (many banned-in-their-heyday power level) throughout Magic's history. Lots of great synergy built in it! So much fun
Completely disagree with Coalition victory and I am saying this as a 5c commander player. I have 3 different 5c commander decks (Painbow, Ur-Dragon and Go-Shintai) and with two of those (Painbow and Go-Shintai ), I can abuse the effect DIAGUSTINGLY easily. Also, if coalition victory gets countered, I already have other cards to protect me from the counter or even being back coalition victory from the graveyard before it gets exiled. Also, as you mentioned, with the new Leyline, it makes things even easier....
mind twist does need to be remembered to be banned mostly for salt reasons, they did a poll to ban a single card and mind twist won i think the primary question with sway of the stars isn't so much that it 'needs' to stay banned as 'does anyone actually want this back', it's just not a very fun card to see resolved
Oh my god please no, I never ever want to sit across the table when Sway of the Stars resolves. Cyclonic Rift is bad enough of a game reset, and that one is at least asymmetrical and would allow the caster to win afterwards, but the thought of having to restart a game that has been going for 90 minutes already is grueling, and it doesn't even exile itself like other powerful sorceries.
Yeah. At least in modern. If Ragavan gets to be legal, then why not allow the other off color mana dork with 3 total p/t and 3 abilities. It also would be a good tool against some of the stronger decks like scam and living end and would be a mana dork that lives through bowmasters.
You don't need leyline if you just control your 5 color commander. I don't feel like there is any real upside to unbanning it. The card either wins the game on the spot or does nothing and doesn't require much more building around than having any 5 color commander.
Splinter Twin will never been unbanned. At this point it's just a meme that it will sit on the banlist forever like Elemental HERO Stratos was for years. I wonder what will come first, unbanned Splinter Twin or "Top 10 Vintage Cards (Minus Power 9)".
I don't even think Twin is playable anymore. You can't really afford to devote the deck slots to cards that don't interact in a control deck in today's modern
10 - Nope. Even without the leyline, it's still way to easy to pull off and you can just do it out of nowhere. Comparing it to Thassa's Oracle more of an argument to ban that card (and even then you get more chances to stop the combo). 9 - I don't care if it isn't strong enough to be used. *Nobody* wants this card back. It's miserable to play against. I agree it isn't overpowered, though. 8 - Having one card of your two card infinite combo always available is too strong, even if you need to pay 3 to get it there. 7 - It doesn't "cost" 3. It costs zero. Even used completely fairly, it's still an auto-include in most blue decks, especially ones that self-mill. And it probably won't be used fairly. 6 - I agree with this one. 5 - I agree with this one too. 4 - No real opinion on this one. I'm not sure how strong Splinter Twin decks would be nowadays. 3 - "You're casting WHAT? Dude, we've been playing for an hour!". Keep this one banned. 2 - This one should never have been banned in the first place, honestly. 1 - This would only be cast for the cheap instant win. And unlike Coalition Victory, it's only one card (plus one sweeper).
I dunno about Mind Twist. There are busted things you can in Legacy, for sure. But if anybody is playing something "fair" Mind Twist just wrecks them. If you actually play longer drawn out games, Mind Twist seems really good. And here's the thing-if you lose a control mirror, because someone got a Mind Twist for your entire hand, it feels like the most unfair thing ever. Maybe my thinking is too outdated.
Surprised you didn't also lobby to free Bridge in modern. I think coalition victory is a fairer unban than biorhythm because it doesn't fit in as many decks
This is probably the most controversial list you have ever done. I agree with every one except your number one haha. It's not unheard of to get to 8 mana as early as turn 3 or 4 in the right deck. Combine that with a mana dork and you might just win on the spot. It just isn't fun to play against.
player A cast wrath of God, goes through because the blue player doesn't have counters, player B plays bird of paradise, then Biorhythm. Doesn't sound unlikely to happen at all, that's very common cards with plenty of alternatives in commander across all colors. The entire table got fucked out of nowhere, despite possibly without a real counterplay because of turn order and player A accidentally kingmade B, while doing an action that was actually healthy to keep a dangerous board state in check. Imagine you are player C and had 3 creatures in play (to play around Biorhythm and 2 in hand to play around Wrath of God, your most reasonable reaction would be to unsleeve Biorhythm and eat it.
Honestly sway of stars wouldnt be super OP or break commander, but that isnt really the reason its banned. Getting to 10 mana really isnt that difficult at all, and it would (as Nizzahon said) just totally invalidate the last 45 mins it so of our lives, totally restarting the game and just leaving us all at 7. It would just feel really, really bad and be a super groan fest. Total waste of everyone's time.
i agree with jitte, i either disagree with all other modern cards, i cant comment on cards in formats i dont play. spliter twin should never be unbanned. its boring AF to face
Zirda is a Force check 8th card that goes infinite with a bunch of cards that are already good. It can stay banned. The whole companion mechanic was a terrible idea and I'll never complain about seeing fewer of them. Sway would probably not see any competitive play but it's not a fun card casually either. What does the format lose without a bad card that's not fun to play against? If you just want kitchen table shenanigans ask your playgroup to okay it.
This list gave me Cancer from being so radioactive. I maybe agree with like 3 or 4 cards. The big problem with these arguments are that they only discuss a card in its contextual power level and... thats it? Power level is not the only factor that goes into banning/unbanning a card. In the case of unbanning especially, a major factor is "what does unbanning this card add to the format?" Being outclassed by stuff that already exists AND also not adding anything fresh to a format will cause a card to stay banned. When they unbanned Stoneforge Mystic, for example, they were trying to create a new deckbuilding sign post for players that moved them away from the graveyard shenanigans that Hogaak had just been causing (as well as banning hogaak itself). I don't think adding a lot of these cards back makes their respective formats better than they were before. Like, just because you have better options doesn't mean a worse one coming back is good for the health of a format.
In Commander protein hulk should get banned and flash should get unbanned. There are literally hundreds of green creatures than the hulk if you’re not comboing it with flash, but there’s no card quite like flash
great idea for a list ! my thoughts: 10. yeah this is probably fine from a power pov, tho i do agree that leyline of the guildpact makes this one more risky and there's a risk of it homogenizing 5 color decks somewhat. personally isn't in the top few commander cards i'd single out for this list 9. YES big agree, this would be a super safe unban and probably wouldn't even see much play outside of a couple fringe archetypes 8. not as sure abt this one -- could see it going either way honestly. wouldn't hate an unban but i'd argue #9 is safer 7. ngl i forgot this one was even banned in the first place ?? yea this one is probably safe too 6. not so sure abt this one -- the problem is it's nearly unbeatable for fair creature decks but only solid against unfair strategies, meaning it runs the risk of pushing out creature decks that can't run with the jitte or run one of their own. not one of the modern cards i'd personally single out for this list 5. really conflicted abt this one -- it would def be fine from a power pov and im all for unbans that help enchantress but i do feel like legacy doesn't need more expensive staples, ya know ? once proxy legacy gets more traction id be 100% on board with this tho 4. was waiting for this one, lowkey thought it might be #1 haha. anyways this would be a perfectly safe unban, i honestly suspect it wouldn't even see that much play 3. yup, this was another card i was hoping might pop up here. the only remote concern from my pov is it potentially dragging out games but at the end of the day, there's a number of other cards that do that for less mana -- i kinda suspect this would see next to no play, honestly 2. kind of surprised to see this this high -- i think unbanning this has similar risks to unbanning jitte but this is ultimately a decent chunk less powerful then jitte so it would probably be fine, altho i'd personally rather see twin get unbanned over this 1. haha me and my friend were just talking abt how silly this one is ! while i might rank sway of the stars as a slightly safer unban, this is still a comically weak combo enabler that requires a good chunk of setup and likely would only see fringe play if it were to be unbanned some great picks overall ! only real change i think i'd make is swapping out jitte for sundering titan or emrakul in commander
I can’t believe that you did not mention “EARTHBIND”. That it got banned was ridiculous. The only Magic card in real history that was banned because of its artwork! Don’t like the artwork? Then change the artwork! But unban EARTHBIND.
Well, it isn't banned anywhere. They just opted not to reprint it in the Collector's Edition thing. Not quite the same thing...since, y'know, you can play it in Vintage , Legacy and Pauper if you really want to. In other words, it's the complete opposite of banned -- it's fully legal in every format it should be legal in.
I don’t believe it. I just checked “The Gatherer” site, and Earthbind is in fact not banned. I swear I remember reading that it was banned because of its R rated artwork. I stand corrected. (And glad I can use them now.) QUESTION: Was Earthbind ever really banned? And if so, when was it unbanned?
@Collector261 Never been banned. Like I said, what you remember is then saying they weren't printing it in the collector's edition boosters because of the art.
Just to have the last word: This card should be reprinted again, with new artwork if it’s needed. It’s still a very useful card. P.S. I don’t see why the art was considered controversial in the first place.
Transguild Courier was a two card combo with Coalition Victory. Used to play in one of my very earliest EDH deck. I say unbanned it. Also Lutri did nothing wrong. #FreeLutri
Unbanning Lutri is dumb, it's just free extra card to every deck that is blue or red. I'd be up for removing companion in commander and then unbanning Lutri though.
Also, if you cast it, one of your opponents can simply remove one of the permanents that would cause you to win while Coalition Victory is still on the stack, and then let it resolve for no effect.
I mean this as nicely as possible, but besides mind twist, your legacy picks are showing your lack of knowledge of the creativeness of the legacy player base.
I think the real problem with sway is not a win coming out of nowhere, but it just kills the momentum of the game. If the player casting it doesn't immediately win it makes everything done up until then pointless. it creates a whole "you just wasted the last hour of your life' feel that is never fun. Not to say it would be a problem if it was actually unbanned. Worldfire does the same thing basically and I've never had any problems with it since it's unbaning
Worldfire has the advantage of setting life at 1, being in red where they could easily end the game very cheaply and actually exiling stuff that's on the field meaning it will progress the game. Sway the Stars effectively just resets the game to zero whereas with Worldfire the game is going to be over extremely soon no matter what, a single resolved creature will win the game in Worldfire, whereas with Sway everyone has a full grip and each opponent is too healthy to lose quickly.
I think the worst problem with Sway is that it invalidates the last hour or so of the game by resetting everything and setting life totals low, but not low enough to make things interesting. Worldfire at least puts everyone into sudden death mode and makes it so the game will at least end quickly, even if it is harder to abuse symmetrically.
@@TheNotshauna @jinxed7915 Worldfire definitely has it's differences, but the similarities is that both cards make the game before they are played pretty much moot
I think that's the biggest thing with a lot of the cards that are banned in commander and why I agree with a lot of the bannings: it's not that they're overpowered, as some are probably underpowered by today's standard, but because they simply make the game less enjoyable or make you feel like you've wasted an hour+ of your life, just for someone to not quite even win. If the card makes the game feel pointless or drag it down to a standstill, the card probably deserves to be banned.
I think Sway of the Stars is banned because it slows down gameplay to a crawl and not because it is too powerful. Personally, if someone played this while I was in the pod and the DIDN'T finish the game immediately, I would scoop and then find a different pod to play with. Ain't nobody got time for that.
I played tons of mirrormatches Upheaval - Psychatog/Zombie Infestation. Games were very long and yes, sometimes people played Upheaval without winning a game immediately. Not a big deal though
Let’s set free the entire edh ban list that isn’t an ante card, dexterity or sharazad. give it a wile to see what the problem is then ban those cards creating a new ban list. But if I only got to choose one I’m picking panoptic mirror !
A few years ago I may have been iffy on Jitte and Punishing Fire but since then Wizards has made it clear they hate small creatures by printing stuff like W6, Fury and Bowmasters, so screw it why not.
I maintain it's absolute nonsense for Punishing Fire to still be banned in Modern in 2024. Most Modern-playable threats survive it, and those that don't (Ragavan, Bowmasters) could use being knocked down a peg or two anyway.
It's not the only removal in the decks that are running it. Sure you can beat a deck that only has punishing fire. There is just so much more you have to deal with in addition to infinite removal@@Ninjamanhammer
I see most of these arguments as legit but I think Zirda would be a mistake to unban. Zirda is one of the few low drop companions who you can play multiple copies of. And the natural gameplan of the deck means it will likely have excess mana to easily grab Zirda unlike most of the other companions.
Yeah, Zirda needs to stay banned. Sol land, Monolith, Sol land means you can still get infinite mana on turn 2, even with the companion errata. It is a turn 2 force check deck that is mulligan proof, discard proof and does so with an 8th card.
Yeah the issue with like power artifact monolith that has been legal in legacy forever is that you need to draw both pieces so it's hard to consistently pull off and you still need an outlet for that infinite mana making it 3 cards. Zirda just cuts through that problem via the companion ability and even with the 3 cost to put in hand that's what all monoliths do already, tap for 3. I'm not sure what the payoff would be as I don't play magic anymore, but I'm sure there's plenty of ways to abuse infinite colorless like hangarback walker would work and is a generally decent card if you have tons of mana.
i dont think you need that many set up with biorhythm, even if everyone has creature on board, after you cast it everyone will go down to 4-6 life, and then you go to combat phase and the game will be over
For the commander ones: Coalition victory: Card is unfun. I don't think it's nessecarily OP, but I doubt anyone would ever be thrilled that a game ends like that. Too weak for CEDH and just annoying for regular EDH. Sway of the Stars: Last card times a thousand. The problem isn't floating mana and winning off it, the problem is NOT having mana and just resetting the game to turn 0 minus 33 life. Adds too much time to games for no real benefit. Biorythem: Once again I don't mind if you win with this, but the amount of games that would end in draws after one guy casts a board wipe and the next guy just windmill slams this would suck.
Completely agree. Worst case scenario, Coalition Victory acts as a sort of emergency "I win" button for 5-color decks--which already tend to be higher power because they can run any card. I will always air on the side of rewarding more color-restricted decks because in Commander, you can't just splash a color to plug up a deck's weaknesses.
A big problem with the two instant-win cards on this list is that they are both sorceries. Other alt wincons are permanents and usually trigger on upkeep, giving other players a large window to respond.
I think if that was the rationale, then Thoracle needs to be banned. While she is a permanent, the win con is an etb trigger that is incredibly difficult to interact with without counterspells.
I don't think Sway is banned for being an instant win, I think it's banned for restarting the game which is absolutely dreadful. And Thoracle absolutely should be banned.
I agree with most of these but Sway of the Stars, you might not have tested this in an actual commander game, it easily becomes a Shahrazad. Games just drag on forever, this one should stay banned forever.
The reason Sway of the Stars is banned in Commander is not because it wins. It wouldn't be banned if that was the case. It's banned because it DOESN'T win. There is the occasional player that will pull off the combo and win, but there are far more that would just cast it to avoid losing and reset the game entirely. A lot of Commander bans are kind of to protect players from themselves.
Biorhythm is dumb. And you have it top of your list to trigger players. Instantly dieing to a green sorcery is not Magic. Of course I would play it on turn 3.
There are 2 things I really see most people overlook when they talk about unbanning cards. The first is if unbanning a card leads to more interactive or enjoyable magic. A good example of this is Burning Shoal in Modern. If unbanning the Shoal probably leads to it seeing no play, but has a chance of being completely busted with no middle ground then it shouldn't be unbanned. Unbanning the card doesn't shake up the format at all, best case you've taken a card off the ban list for no effect, worst case you need to reban it immediately and I don't think Wizards wants to do that after the results that came from doing that with Golgari Grave-Troll. The Second is that people think about how much a deck that was banned would work in the current format more than what new decks would be created from Unbanning a card. Some pros did some remove 1 card from the Modern ban list and built some decks series on TH-cam a little while back. When it came to Splinter Twin it got played in a disgusting Ragavan aggro deck that combo'd out with Twin when your opponent put all their resources into stopping your aggressive starts. I'm not sure old U/R twin with some modern tweaks would be too powerful in Modern. I am concerned that Splinter Twin in other shells might be too powerful. (and I am one of those players who would love to get to play UR twin again in Modern). A lot of the cards you mention seem to not have overlooked either of these factors. Mind Twist I think would be perfectly fine in Legacy now. But there are some cards, like Biorhythm, that don't seem like they would lead to fun interaction. Either it's not good enough or it does turn out to be miserable but without any middle ground.
Cards should not have to meet a criteria to be unbanned, other than not being broken. Mind Twist sucks, so it shouldn't be banned. Earthcraft sucks, so it shouldn't be banned. Why does a card have to have some special benefit?
@@JohnFromAccounting If the card can be 100% verified as not being broken sure. Mind Twist and Earthcraft I both feel could lead to new interactions in Legacy that may not be as broken as they once were. I'm actually pretty open on the unbanning of these cards. Particularly Mind Twist.
I agree with most of this list, but I think the problem with Sway of the Stars isn’t that some players will use it to pull off a combo win, but that it can be used as a board wipe in a pinch, more or less starting the game over, which is miserable. Then again, since Armageddon is legal, cards that can make games drag out miserably might not be something Commander is too worried about.
Not having Birthing pod on this list is criminal, WotC claims it homogenised toolbox decks but forgets to mention it makes like +50 cards go from garbage packfiller to actually being playable The only real problem the card brings is the low cost combokill, something easily remedied by actually banning the combo enabler that is only ever used in bullshit decks, a small loss and if you really don't want to hit goblins jusy keep the card legal in legacy
if sway of the stars is banned why in the fucking world is omniscience unbanned IF YOU PAY 10 MANA FOR SOMETHING YOU BETTER HAVE A CHANCE OF WINNING THE GAME WITH IT O you win the game out of nowhere BISH If I get to 10 mana either ramping really hard or its turn 10 just end the game I don't need 4 hour commander games
I don’t think collation victory is overpowered, but it needs to be banned commander. It’s too easy with tri lands, and so many good multicolored creatures way too easy to pull off! My friend built a deck 20 years ago when we used to play chaos and we all had dual lands and stuff and it was easy then I can only imagine that it’s gotten 100 times easier!
I am mostly a casual Commander player and I think a ban list based on power level would be highly beneficial to cEDH while casual can get by with Rule 0, house rules and zero ban lists. You can use metrics to define problem cards in a format but you can't really do the same for the nebulous concept of "fun".
Requiring Rule 0 for everything requires WAY too much work with no banlist. The Banlist gives a very good starting point, then you don't have to rule 0 nearly as much. cEDH should have gotten its own banlist since that format started.
its not that people can bust the card, that card is busted without doing anything but drawing cards. the problem is it gives someone 4 turns each round. As someone who loves setting up the leyline of anticipation - seedborne muse combo, its so broken without doing anything else. If the combo isnt dealt with in the next turn cycle i just win the game
Biorhythm needs to stay banned. In a blue green deck it can just end the game turn 4. You can cyclonic at the end of the person's turn and Biorhythm on your turn. Win. Also, even in most cases you are playing mono green you have lots of big trample creatures and your opponents might have 1 or 2, maybe 5. And you set their life to 5 and swing you still win. You might even gain life out of it
Coalition Victory should absolutely not be unbanned in commander. It's become hilariously easy to satisfy its conditions. Sway of the Stars likewise should not be, but for the opposite reason. It almost always makes everything up to that point irrelevant and drags the game out much longer. Worldfire may look similar, but putting everyone to 1 life and no resources puts everyone in a mad dash to get that 1 point of damage in on their opponents.
Nizzahon, I know you don't play Commander, but the answer is: Yes, Coalition Victory, even before Leyline, is problematic for the format and should still be banned. I'd rather have Demonic Consultation get banned than this get unbanned.
Hot take Primeval Titan and prophet of Kurphix should be unmanned in commander. While both extremely potent cards and were hard to deal with when they banned, creature interactions and removal have be staples with every color even colorless that if played would die almost immediately
okay earthcraft needs to be unbanned and THE RESERVE LIST NEEDS TO BE REMOVED like come on we’ve seen cards get taken off of it and the original printings hold their price. Birds of paradise got reprinted last year and the alpha copy is still almost $4000
"...those were all real problems about TWO DECADES AGO..."
OUCH man ouch your words hurt more than my back.
I think the issue with coalition victory is that its not a combo pieve, its just one card plus your deck, and you win. If you have a 5 color commander, you want him on rhe board. A 5 color commander deck wants duel lands. And then bam 1 card and you win. The only way the opponent can prevent this is by preventing you from building your board. Its not super broken, just super unfun
It also means that if someone plays a five color commander that commander will get killed at every opportunity, just in case they have Coalition Victory.
Pretty much how I felt about Golos
Lol frantic search has been banned in legacy longer than I've been alive
what are you doing here zoomer? XD
On the legacy entries:
- Mind twist is probably not playable in the current meta, and hasn’t been for a while. The card is pretty much either unplayable or miserable, so I don’t mind keeping it banned because it’s not really preventing interesting decks using it from existing. Hymn does a good job at imitating a reasonable X value version of this, another reason we aren’t missing much by keeping it banned. Probably wouldn’t do anything with an unban, but not adding anything of value.
- Zirda + monoliths is too easy of a combo even with the higher mana investment. The decks that play it are usually more limited on cards than mana, so zirda being always accessible helps their mulligans too much. This card would be fine if it was reprinted as a non-companion, but it makes the combo way too linear as is. Like mind twist, the deck it creates is not fun for the format even if it would be power appropriate. Infinite mana off of paradox engine is already a solid deck in a similar space with more interesting lines and counter play.
- Frantic Search is on the edge. I’d be fine testing it out with a probationary unban, but it could make the decks it’s in very strong. I also personally think high tide is less fun as a strategy than most other storm-adjacent options because it’s usually fundamentally non-deterministic because of its reliance of wheels and can be very slow.
- Earthcraft is likely completely safe; remove reserve list!
Cards that suck shouldn't be on the ban list. Should Armageddon be on the ban list? It's miserable to play against, but sees zero play.
@@JohnFromAccounting yes, they should.
Shahrazad is the poster-child for "this is an unfun card" and so it is banned (not restricted) in literally every format, despite the payoff actually being pretty bad.
In fact, arguably, it's an awful card for any format specifically *because* the payoff is so bad.
@@EnderPrydethats like the only example in a non-commander format
PLEASE remove the reserve list, weve seen cards come off it and the original printings never lose value. I mean for gods sake look at birds of paradise, they are everywhere and the original printing is still almost $4000
@@chickennoodles4491 there's quite a few, actually, but for a variety of reasons.
The 7 "culturally insensitive" cards that were banned in every format are pretty bad to play (Crusade was playable, but anthems are a dying card archetype) but make the game unfun for IRL reasons.
Falling Star is banned in every format for accessibility reasons despite never being remotely viable as a card.
And of course, we can't forget about Ante cards being banned in every format for *being potentially illegal* (depending where you are) despite very few of them being remotely playable in a modern context.
Being "too good", is just one potential reason for banning cards, and "being unfun to play and resolve" is another such reason.
Okay on the two commander bans other than biorhythm:
The reason why Coalition Victory is banned isn’t because of the power, it’s because commander is based on fun and interactive multiplayer games and coalition victory is like the dumbest way a casual game could end. The issue is that it sits in a powerlevel spot where casual players could easily justify playing it, and its just so obnoxiously boring, and makes the rest of the game feel like a waste. Yeah there are a ton of TWO card insta-win combos in commander, but those are two cards out of 99 that you need to find. Also just becuase Thoracle is legal doesnt mean that coalition victory would be good for the format. Everyone knows thoracle should be banned too.
On Sway of the Stars, the issue isn’t winning with that card, as that takes effort and luck. The problem is using that card to not lose. The issue isn’t casting the card to win, its casting the card as a board wipe that just makes everyone start all over again. It’s basically banned for the same reason shaharazaad is, it prevents the game from ending in a timely manner. Nobody would care if someone cast that card and won, the problem is casting the card and not winning, and then forcing everyone to replay the whole game.
I don’t feel biorhythm should stay banned because if you’re not playing creatures, then you should be playing the countermagic to prevent yourself from being oneshot anyway. And also it takes a ton of setup to even win with the card in the first place
I like that, even after they changed how Companion worked, they only explained half of how it works in the reminder text.
The problem with Sway of the Stars is that while it can be used as a set-up to win the game, it can also be a 'lol the game just restarted' card that just kills all the momentum in the game.
Worldpurge literally exists in the format, and Wizards unbanned Worldfire. Sway is 100% safe to unban at this moment
yeah i totally agree, nobody would care if you cast in and won, it would just suck if you cast it in order to not lose
@@MrGertrisWorldfire puts the game into Sudden Death mode. Sway of the Stars just drags things out.
Haaard disagree on Sway of the Stars.
The power level of the card may have lowered relative to what you can do with 10 mana, but *any* "restart the game" style effects are just plain unfun to resolve.
Exactly. The two most similar effects, Worldfire and Karn Liberated, have distinct differences that make them more fun. Worldfire puts the game into Sudden Death mode while Karn says you restart the game with a distinct advantage.
Gotta hard disagree about frantic search, especially with your statement that it wouldn’t significantly boost storm and high tide decks. Have you SEEN what that card does in vintage cube? It’s absolutely broken
WTF is vintage cube?
@@adamtobiasz8793 Worth about a down payment on a house and then some
Vintage cube is not Legacy lol.
@@adamtobiasz8793a high-powered limited environment offered every few months on Magic Online. A curated list of cards with the power 9 and various heavy hitters (many banned-in-their-heyday power level) throughout Magic's history. Lots of great synergy built in it! So much fun
@@xxANBUxx I still guarantee it would cause problems
Completely disagree with Coalition victory and I am saying this as a 5c commander player. I have 3 different 5c commander decks (Painbow, Ur-Dragon and Go-Shintai) and with two of those (Painbow and Go-Shintai ), I can abuse the effect DIAGUSTINGLY easily. Also, if coalition victory gets countered, I already have other cards to protect me from the counter or even being back coalition victory from the graveyard before it gets exiled. Also, as you mentioned, with the new Leyline, it makes things even easier....
Can you do a "At random" top 10 please? I love making players do things at random. They don't print many "at random" cards anymore.
Already did it
Just one more point about Biorhythm is this effect already exists on the (legal in commander) card Shaman of Forgotten Ways.
Hard agree about almost everything. Not so sure about frantic search, but otherwise these seem like great picks
I never noticed this before, but wtf is up with that over the trouser thong the character on the left of Coalition Victory is wearing?!
Leyline of the Guildpact in starting hand with Jegantha as your Commander, 3 mana Coalition victory woohoo!
Abzan wrath tribal with biorhythm would be so fun to play.
mind twist does need to be remembered to be banned mostly for salt reasons, they did a poll to ban a single card and mind twist won
i think the primary question with sway of the stars isn't so much that it 'needs' to stay banned as 'does anyone actually want this back', it's just not a very fun card to see resolved
Let us have Ancestral Recall! Mystic Remora and Esper Sentinel often both draw more cards for 1 mana
Oh my god please no, I never ever want to sit across the table when Sway of the Stars resolves. Cyclonic Rift is bad enough of a game reset, and that one is at least asymmetrical and would allow the caster to win afterwards, but the thought of having to restart a game that has been going for 90 minutes already is grueling, and it doesn't even exile itself like other powerful sorceries.
I wanna see a top 10 of pre release cards
I can still see Sway of the Stars being a problem in Commander with Urza's insane mana production.
Deathrite shaman across the board
Yeah. At least in modern. If Ragavan gets to be legal, then why not allow the other off color mana dork with 3 total p/t and 3 abilities. It also would be a good tool against some of the stronger decks like scam and living end and would be a mana dork that lives through bowmasters.
You don't need leyline if you just control your 5 color commander. I don't feel like there is any real upside to unbanning it. The card either wins the game on the spot or does nothing and doesn't require much more building around than having any 5 color commander.
Splinter Twin will never been unbanned. At this point it's just a meme that it will sit on the banlist forever like Elemental HERO Stratos was for years. I wonder what will come first, unbanned Splinter Twin or "Top 10 Vintage Cards (Minus Power 9)".
I pray they both come soon!
I don't even think Twin is playable anymore. You can't really afford to devote the deck slots to cards that don't interact in a control deck in today's modern
Bring back Veil of Summer
10 - Nope. Even without the leyline, it's still way to easy to pull off and you can just do it out of nowhere. Comparing it to Thassa's Oracle more of an argument to ban that card (and even then you get more chances to stop the combo).
9 - I don't care if it isn't strong enough to be used. *Nobody* wants this card back. It's miserable to play against. I agree it isn't overpowered, though.
8 - Having one card of your two card infinite combo always available is too strong, even if you need to pay 3 to get it there.
7 - It doesn't "cost" 3. It costs zero. Even used completely fairly, it's still an auto-include in most blue decks, especially ones that self-mill. And it probably won't be used fairly.
6 - I agree with this one.
5 - I agree with this one too.
4 - No real opinion on this one. I'm not sure how strong Splinter Twin decks would be nowadays.
3 - "You're casting WHAT? Dude, we've been playing for an hour!". Keep this one banned.
2 - This one should never have been banned in the first place, honestly.
1 - This would only be cast for the cheap instant win. And unlike Coalition Victory, it's only one card (plus one sweeper).
Huzzah! Free the Twin!!!!
I dunno about Mind Twist. There are busted things you can in Legacy, for sure. But if anybody is playing something "fair" Mind Twist just wrecks them. If you actually play longer drawn out games, Mind Twist seems really good. And here's the thing-if you lose a control mirror, because someone got a Mind Twist for your entire hand, it feels like the most unfair thing ever. Maybe my thinking is too outdated.
*"They hated Jesus because He told them the truth."*
Surprised you didn't also lobby to free Bridge in modern. I think coalition victory is a fairer unban than biorhythm because it doesn't fit in as many decks
This is probably the most controversial list you have ever done. I agree with every one except your number one haha. It's not unheard of to get to 8 mana as early as turn 3 or 4 in the right deck. Combine that with a mana dork and you might just win on the spot. It just isn't fun to play against.
player A cast wrath of God, goes through because the blue player doesn't have counters, player B plays bird of paradise, then Biorhythm. Doesn't sound unlikely to happen at all, that's very common cards with plenty of alternatives in commander across all colors.
The entire table got fucked out of nowhere, despite possibly without a real counterplay because of turn order and player A accidentally kingmade B, while doing an action that was actually healthy to keep a dangerous board state in check. Imagine you are player C and had 3 creatures in play (to play around Biorhythm and 2 in hand to play around Wrath of God, your most reasonable reaction would be to unsleeve Biorhythm and eat it.
Honestly sway of stars wouldnt be super OP or break commander, but that isnt really the reason its banned. Getting to 10 mana really isnt that difficult at all, and it would (as Nizzahon said) just totally invalidate the last 45 mins it so of our lives, totally restarting the game and just leaving us all at 7. It would just feel really, really bad and be a super groan fest. Total waste of everyone's time.
i agree with jitte, i either disagree with all other modern cards, i cant comment on cards in formats i dont play. spliter twin should never be unbanned. its boring AF to face
Urban mox opal!
With only a few months until rotation, unban Meathook Massacre!
Is Mind Twist still banned in Legacy? 🤨
PS: unban Recurring Nightmare in EDH!!!
Zirda is a Force check 8th card that goes infinite with a bunch of cards that are already good. It can stay banned. The whole companion mechanic was a terrible idea and I'll never complain about seeing fewer of them.
Sway would probably not see any competitive play but it's not a fun card casually either. What does the format lose without a bad card that's not fun to play against? If you just want kitchen table shenanigans ask your playgroup to okay it.
Rofellos needs to be unbanned in Commander
Good pick!
My first guess for this list would be Dreadhorde Arcanist, its legacy banning is silly in the current meta
Nope
This list gave me Cancer from being so radioactive.
I maybe agree with like 3 or 4 cards. The big problem with these arguments are that they only discuss a card in its contextual power level and... thats it? Power level is not the only factor that goes into banning/unbanning a card. In the case of unbanning especially, a major factor is "what does unbanning this card add to the format?" Being outclassed by stuff that already exists AND also not adding anything fresh to a format will cause a card to stay banned. When they unbanned Stoneforge Mystic, for example, they were trying to create a new deckbuilding sign post for players that moved them away from the graveyard shenanigans that Hogaak had just been causing (as well as banning hogaak itself). I don't think adding a lot of these cards back makes their respective formats better than they were before. Like, just because you have better options doesn't mean a worse one coming back is good for the health of a format.
that and he mainly plays draft, I honestly dont think he personally interacts with many formats
Splinter Twin did nothing wrong. Been saying that for years. Banning the card almost killed Modern 😢
Blazing shoal
In Commander protein hulk should get banned and flash should get unbanned. There are literally hundreds of green creatures than the hulk if you’re not comboing it with flash, but there’s no card quite like flash
The majority of the commander unbans feel like they're not an argument for unbanning them, but banning other cards *cough* oracle *cough*.
Splinter Twin and Jitte? I'd rather not play that Modern, im fine not being land denied 3 turns in a row to just die.
I second Earthcraft should be unbanned because I own like two of themand could use the money
Ponder would be completely fine in modern.
great idea for a list ! my thoughts:
10. yeah this is probably fine from a power pov, tho i do agree that leyline of the guildpact makes this one more risky and there's a risk of it homogenizing 5 color decks somewhat. personally isn't in the top few commander cards i'd single out for this list
9. YES big agree, this would be a super safe unban and probably wouldn't even see much play outside of a couple fringe archetypes
8. not as sure abt this one -- could see it going either way honestly. wouldn't hate an unban but i'd argue #9 is safer
7. ngl i forgot this one was even banned in the first place ?? yea this one is probably safe too
6. not so sure abt this one -- the problem is it's nearly unbeatable for fair creature decks but only solid against unfair strategies, meaning it runs the risk of pushing out creature decks that can't run with the jitte or run one of their own. not one of the modern cards i'd personally single out for this list
5. really conflicted abt this one -- it would def be fine from a power pov and im all for unbans that help enchantress but i do feel like legacy doesn't need more expensive staples, ya know ? once proxy legacy gets more traction id be 100% on board with this tho
4. was waiting for this one, lowkey thought it might be #1 haha. anyways this would be a perfectly safe unban, i honestly suspect it wouldn't even see that much play
3. yup, this was another card i was hoping might pop up here. the only remote concern from my pov is it potentially dragging out games but at the end of the day, there's a number of other cards that do that for less mana -- i kinda suspect this would see next to no play, honestly
2. kind of surprised to see this this high -- i think unbanning this has similar risks to unbanning jitte but this is ultimately a decent chunk less powerful then jitte so it would probably be fine, altho i'd personally rather see twin get unbanned over this
1. haha me and my friend were just talking abt how silly this one is ! while i might rank sway of the stars as a slightly safer unban, this is still a comically weak combo enabler that requires a good chunk of setup and likely would only see fringe play if it were to be unbanned
some great picks overall ! only real change i think i'd make is swapping out jitte for sundering titan or emrakul in commander
I play Stoneblade in legacy and Jitte is unplayable in the archetype. Jitte is nowhere near too good for modern.
Earthcraft would not increase much in price because legacy is niche in paper, and the card is completely unplayable.
i think we should unban all cards. i hate cards getting banned.
Unban Coaltion Victory. Ban that stupid leyline.
I can’t believe that you did not mention “EARTHBIND”. That it got banned was ridiculous. The only Magic card in real history that was banned because of its artwork! Don’t like the artwork? Then change the artwork! But unban EARTHBIND.
Well, it isn't banned anywhere. They just opted not to reprint it in the Collector's Edition thing. Not quite the same thing...since, y'know, you can play it in Vintage , Legacy and Pauper if you really want to. In other words, it's the complete opposite of banned -- it's fully legal in every format it should be legal in.
I don’t believe it. I just checked “The Gatherer” site, and Earthbind is in fact not banned. I swear I remember reading that it was banned because of its R rated artwork.
I stand corrected. (And glad I can use them now.)
QUESTION: Was Earthbind ever really banned? And if so, when was it unbanned?
@Collector261 Never been banned. Like I said, what you remember is then saying they weren't printing it in the collector's edition boosters because of the art.
Just to have the last word: This card should be reprinted again, with new artwork if it’s needed. It’s still a very useful card.
P.S. I don’t see why the art was considered controversial in the first place.
Please dont unban zirda
Please add Mana Drain and Library of Alexandria, these cards do not mean any problem in both Legacy and Vintage...
Spending mana to counter a spell is so 1996. Unban Mana Drain.
Transguild Courier was a two card combo with Coalition Victory. Used to play in one of my very earliest EDH deck. I say unbanned it.
Also Lutri did nothing wrong. #FreeLutri
Unbanning Lutri is dumb, it's just free extra card to every deck that is blue or red.
I'd be up for removing companion in commander and then unbanning Lutri though.
Any 5c commander that is all 5 colors is a 2 card combo with it.
I disagree with coalition victory purely because i believe there should be no alt win cons without an upkeep trigger.
coalition victory can be very easily broken by any 5 color commander, especially something like jodah or garth
8 mana 5 color card that require a minimum 2 card setup
Also, if you cast it, one of your opponents can simply remove one of the permanents that would cause you to win while Coalition Victory is still on the stack, and then let it resolve for no effect.
Except Kenrtih, Go-shintai, Esika, sisay, urtet, najeela, morphon, jodah, ramos, or any of the other 5c commanders that aren't 5 colours.
Unban the Restricted List now
They should ban MORE cards, not less.
Splinter Twin should be unbanned & they should ban Island instead.
It's sometimes not the Biorhythm, but the Thallids we laid upon the way.
I agree with your commander takes I also think panoptic mirror should get unbanned and biorhythm should stay banned
I mean this as nicely as possible, but besides mind twist, your legacy picks are showing your lack of knowledge of the creativeness of the legacy player base.
I think the real problem with sway is not a win coming out of nowhere, but it just kills the momentum of the game. If the player casting it doesn't immediately win it makes everything done up until then pointless. it creates a whole "you just wasted the last hour of your life' feel that is never fun. Not to say it would be a problem if it was actually unbanned. Worldfire does the same thing basically and I've never had any problems with it since it's unbaning
Worldfire has the advantage of setting life at 1, being in red where they could easily end the game very cheaply and actually exiling stuff that's on the field meaning it will progress the game. Sway the Stars effectively just resets the game to zero whereas with Worldfire the game is going to be over extremely soon no matter what, a single resolved creature will win the game in Worldfire, whereas with Sway everyone has a full grip and each opponent is too healthy to lose quickly.
I think the worst problem with Sway is that it invalidates the last hour or so of the game by resetting everything and setting life totals low, but not low enough to make things interesting. Worldfire at least puts everyone into sudden death mode and makes it so the game will at least end quickly, even if it is harder to abuse symmetrically.
@@TheNotshauna @jinxed7915 Worldfire definitely has it's differences, but the similarities is that both cards make the game before they are played pretty much moot
I think that's the biggest thing with a lot of the cards that are banned in commander and why I agree with a lot of the bannings: it's not that they're overpowered, as some are probably underpowered by today's standard, but because they simply make the game less enjoyable or make you feel like you've wasted an hour+ of your life, just for someone to not quite even win. If the card makes the game feel pointless or drag it down to a standstill, the card probably deserves to be banned.
Keep crying.
I think Sway of the Stars is banned because it slows down gameplay to a crawl and not because it is too powerful. Personally, if someone played this while I was in the pod and the DIDN'T finish the game immediately, I would scoop and then find a different pod to play with. Ain't nobody got time for that.
I played tons of mirrormatches Upheaval - Psychatog/Zombie Infestation. Games were very long and yes, sometimes people played Upheaval without winning a game immediately. Not a big deal though
Aka the Scherazade factor
It's basically Shaharazad, but without it being a sub-game. It's just a reset button that can make the game go on even longer.
Let’s set free the entire edh ban list that isn’t an ante card, dexterity or sharazad. give it a wile to see what the problem is then ban those cards creating a new ban list. But if I only got to choose one I’m picking panoptic mirror !
A few years ago I may have been iffy on Jitte and Punishing Fire but since then Wizards has made it clear they hate small creatures by printing stuff like W6, Fury and Bowmasters, so screw it why not.
I maintain it's absolute nonsense for Punishing Fire to still be banned in Modern in 2024. Most Modern-playable threats survive it, and those that don't (Ragavan, Bowmasters) could use being knocked down a peg or two anyway.
Also, it's _slow_ in the current Modern format.
They banned fury for the same reason punishing fire is still banned. It's just too much for creature decks
@@irou95It seems too slow to be too much for current creature decks.
It's not the only removal in the decks that are running it. Sure you can beat a deck that only has punishing fire. There is just so much more you have to deal with in addition to infinite removal@@Ninjamanhammer
@@irou95I just don't think the prospect of eventually getting to slow infinite removal is much of an issue.
I see most of these arguments as legit but I think Zirda would be a mistake to unban.
Zirda is one of the few low drop companions who you can play multiple copies of. And the natural gameplan of the deck means it will likely have excess mana to easily grab Zirda unlike most of the other companions.
keep crying you pûsÿ
Yeah, Zirda needs to stay banned. Sol land, Monolith, Sol land means you can still get infinite mana on turn 2, even with the companion errata. It is a turn 2 force check deck that is mulligan proof, discard proof and does so with an 8th card.
I also hate companions with a passion so I don’t mind them being banned. Who the hell designed lurrus
Yeah the issue with like power artifact monolith that has been legal in legacy forever is that you need to draw both pieces so it's hard to consistently pull off and you still need an outlet for that infinite mana making it 3 cards. Zirda just cuts through that problem via the companion ability and even with the 3 cost to put in hand that's what all monoliths do already, tap for 3. I'm not sure what the payoff would be as I don't play magic anymore, but I'm sure there's plenty of ways to abuse infinite colorless like hangarback walker would work and is a generally decent card if you have tons of mana.
@@derekcline950wait, how do you pay the colored mana for zirda?
i dont think you need that many set up with biorhythm, even if everyone has creature on board, after you cast it everyone will go down to 4-6 life, and then you go to combat phase and the game will be over
This is much less stable than a single Craterhoof.
Who cares at that point the game should be over
the game needs to end at the point where biorhythm can even be cast
Thank you for helping to quell my late night boredom
For the commander ones:
Coalition victory: Card is unfun. I don't think it's nessecarily OP, but I doubt anyone would ever be thrilled that a game ends like that. Too weak for CEDH and just annoying for regular EDH.
Sway of the Stars: Last card times a thousand. The problem isn't floating mana and winning off it, the problem is NOT having mana and just resetting the game to turn 0 minus 33 life. Adds too much time to games for no real benefit.
Biorythem: Once again I don't mind if you win with this, but the amount of games that would end in draws after one guy casts a board wipe and the next guy just windmill slams this would suck.
Completely agree.
Worst case scenario, Coalition Victory acts as a sort of emergency "I win" button for 5-color decks--which already tend to be higher power because they can run any card.
I will always air on the side of rewarding more color-restricted decks because in Commander, you can't just splash a color to plug up a deck's weaknesses.
A big problem with the two instant-win cards on this list is that they are both sorceries.
Other alt wincons are permanents and usually trigger on upkeep, giving other players a large window to respond.
I think if that was the rationale, then Thoracle needs to be banned. While she is a permanent, the win con is an etb trigger that is incredibly difficult to interact with without counterspells.
@@VolvoxSocksoverall more cards should be banned in edh, problem is the rules community bans signpost cards and wants rule 0 to do the rest.
@@VolvoxSocksthoracle should absolutely be banned imo
I don't think Sway is banned for being an instant win, I think it's banned for restarting the game which is absolutely dreadful.
And Thoracle absolutely should be banned.
@@VolvoxSocks Thoracle is absolutely one of those "If you beat me with that I'll never play against you again" cards for me.
I agree with most of these but Sway of the Stars, you might not have tested this in an actual commander game, it easily becomes a Shahrazad. Games just drag on forever, this one should stay banned forever.
The #3 card doesn’t seem like a power issue either, seems like it just makes the game unfun
Not watched yet. But Gifts Ungiven should be unbanned in edh
My greatest regret in a multiplayer game many years ago was being one mana short from casting Rout in response to Biorhythm
The reason Sway of the Stars is banned in Commander is not because it wins. It wouldn't be banned if that was the case. It's banned because it DOESN'T win. There is the occasional player that will pull off the combo and win, but there are far more that would just cast it to avoid losing and reset the game entirely. A lot of Commander bans are kind of to protect players from themselves.
Biorhythm is dumb. And you have it top of your list to trigger players. Instantly dieing to a green sorcery is not Magic. Of course I would play it on turn 3.
There are 2 things I really see most people overlook when they talk about unbanning cards.
The first is if unbanning a card leads to more interactive or enjoyable magic. A good example of this is Burning Shoal in Modern. If unbanning the Shoal probably leads to it seeing no play, but has a chance of being completely busted with no middle ground then it shouldn't be unbanned. Unbanning the card doesn't shake up the format at all, best case you've taken a card off the ban list for no effect, worst case you need to reban it immediately and I don't think Wizards wants to do that after the results that came from doing that with Golgari Grave-Troll.
The Second is that people think about how much a deck that was banned would work in the current format more than what new decks would be created from Unbanning a card. Some pros did some remove 1 card from the Modern ban list and built some decks series on TH-cam a little while back. When it came to Splinter Twin it got played in a disgusting Ragavan aggro deck that combo'd out with Twin when your opponent put all their resources into stopping your aggressive starts.
I'm not sure old U/R twin with some modern tweaks would be too powerful in Modern. I am concerned that Splinter Twin in other shells might be too powerful. (and I am one of those players who would love to get to play UR twin again in Modern).
A lot of the cards you mention seem to not have overlooked either of these factors. Mind Twist I think would be perfectly fine in Legacy now. But there are some cards, like Biorhythm, that don't seem like they would lead to fun interaction. Either it's not good enough or it does turn out to be miserable but without any middle ground.
Cards should not have to meet a criteria to be unbanned, other than not being broken. Mind Twist sucks, so it shouldn't be banned. Earthcraft sucks, so it shouldn't be banned. Why does a card have to have some special benefit?
@@JohnFromAccounting If the card can be 100% verified as not being broken sure. Mind Twist and Earthcraft I both feel could lead to new interactions in Legacy that may not be as broken as they once were. I'm actually pretty open on the unbanning of these cards. Particularly Mind Twist.
I agree with most of this list, but I think the problem with Sway of the Stars isn’t that some players will use it to pull off a combo win, but that it can be used as a board wipe in a pinch, more or less starting the game over, which is miserable. Then again, since Armageddon is legal, cards that can make games drag out miserably might not be something Commander is too worried about.
Sway drags the game out way more than Armageddon does though.
so you said zirda was banned in 2019 but the card didnt come out until 2020
Jitte wouldn't do anything in modern, just way too slow and good in very narrow situations, bowmasters is way more of a problem
Not having Birthing pod on this list is criminal, WotC claims it homogenised toolbox decks but forgets to mention it makes like +50 cards go from garbage packfiller to actually being playable
The only real problem the card brings is the low cost combokill, something easily remedied by actually banning the combo enabler that is only ever used in bullshit decks, a small loss and if you really don't want to hit goblins jusy keep the card legal in legacy
Hard agree with Birthing Pod.
Agree, it should be unbanned along with GSZ.
if sway of the stars is banned why in the fucking world is omniscience unbanned IF YOU PAY 10 MANA FOR SOMETHING YOU BETTER HAVE A CHANCE OF WINNING THE GAME WITH IT O you win the game out of nowhere BISH If I get to 10 mana either ramping really hard or its turn 10 just end the game I don't need 4 hour commander games
14:11 this isn’t clunky at all. If any card should stay banned in commander, it’s biorhythm lol
Interesting list. Would love to see a list with 10 cards you think SHOULD be banned.
Now you need to do a top 10 of cards that you think should get banned
Man my squirrelcraft was so much fun back in the day.
I don’t think collation victory is overpowered, but it needs to be banned commander. It’s too easy with tri lands, and so many good multicolored creatures way too easy to pull off! My friend built a deck 20 years ago when we used to play chaos and we all had dual lands and stuff and it was easy then I can only imagine that it’s gotten 100 times easier!
Collation victory? Is that where you get your assignment at Kinkos done 10 minutes early and have time to get a coffee?
I am mostly a casual Commander player and I think a ban list based on power level would be highly beneficial to cEDH while casual can get by with Rule 0, house rules and zero ban lists. You can use metrics to define problem cards in a format but you can't really do the same for the nebulous concept of "fun".
Requiring Rule 0 for everything requires WAY too much work with no banlist. The Banlist gives a very good starting point, then you don't have to rule 0 nearly as much.
cEDH should have gotten its own banlist since that format started.
It's not about being casual or not. What you describe works if you have a regular playgroup. Casual needs a list that still works when you don't.
#freebraids
You should do apua il fools video: "Top ten cards that should be added to reserved list"
When I found out Prophet of Kruphixwasnt legal in commander that one hurt, but I can see how people could bust the card.
its not that people can bust the card, that card is busted without doing anything but drawing cards. the problem is it gives someone 4 turns each round. As someone who loves setting up the leyline of anticipation - seedborne muse combo, its so broken without doing anything else. If the combo isnt dealt with in the next turn cycle i just win the game
Hand discard is really not that strong anymore. Not if you have to pay X+1 per card you want to discard. Hymn is far stronger at two mana.
Coalition victory is just not fun, and having fun is the number one goal for commander magic. Why do people want that card so bad?
Biorhythm needs to stay banned. In a blue green deck it can just end the game turn 4. You can cyclonic at the end of the person's turn and Biorhythm on your turn. Win. Also, even in most cases you are playing mono green you have lots of big trample creatures and your opponents might have 1 or 2, maybe 5. And you set their life to 5 and swing you still win. You might even gain life out of it
Coalition Victory should absolutely not be unbanned in commander. It's become hilariously easy to satisfy its conditions.
Sway of the Stars likewise should not be, but for the opposite reason. It almost always makes everything up to that point irrelevant and drags the game out much longer. Worldfire may look similar, but putting everyone to 1 life and no resources puts everyone in a mad dash to get that 1 point of damage in on their opponents.
Nizzahon, I know you don't play Commander, but the answer is: Yes, Coalition Victory, even before Leyline, is problematic for the format and should still be banned. I'd rather have Demonic Consultation get banned than this get unbanned.
Hot take Primeval Titan and prophet of Kurphix should be unmanned in commander. While both extremely potent cards and were hard to deal with when they banned, creature interactions and removal have be staples with every color even colorless that if played would die almost immediately
okay earthcraft needs to be unbanned and THE RESERVE LIST NEEDS TO BE REMOVED like come on we’ve seen cards get taken off of it and the original printings hold their price. Birds of paradise got reprinted last year and the alpha copy is still almost $4000