Thanks Chyrosran22 for a terriffic review of the Brand New Model F Model M style case F104 Keyboard! This may be the ultimate Model F keyboard video for years to come! I feel that the review was fair and addressed the positives and negatives accurately so that everyone can make an informed decision about these keyboards. Based on our very helpful discussions and some discussions with others, I have added some text to the FAQ part of each keyboard page that helps to set expectations for the project as clearly as possible. It helps explain the battle between the competing ideologies of buy it for life, right (and responsibility) to maintain/repair etc. vs. the standard big company one-year unlimited warranty, planned obsolescence, and everything is done for you. I have ordered many extra parts from the factory and the great thing about the Model F is that everything is repairable - if a small part breaks or whatnot, it can be replaced without any specialized knowledge or equipment outside of what is in the setup video and manual. A new Model F keyboard never has to be thrown in a landfill because it can be fixed quite easily and reasonably. Regarding the solenoid volume, there are two ways to make it lower (outside of the ability to toggle it on and off using a key combination command): you can install it with the 2 included rubber grommets/washers between the solenoid and case, as was done for the keyboards in the video, and you can also reduce the throw length of the solenoid's cylinder by adjusting the 2 screws on the solenoid as shown in the manual on the project web site (the keyboards in the video had it at full length). A big thanks to NathanA for the project moving to Vial firmware! Deskthority forum member NathanA is responsible for making all of these great old style keyboards work with Vial. Regarding the first aid kit, the kit includes 22 small parts plus the replacement inner foam; each small spare part like a barrel or flipper with spring is also available individually for $1 or $2, plus the $25 replacement inner foam. The kit is the exact cost of the individual parts that make up the kit, without discount or markup. Everyone can also get individual flippers with springs as well for $1 each if you want more than the 10 spare flippers with springs in the kit or if you only want extra flippers with springs.
Hi, I'm an F77 owner and have an order in for the beamspring round 2. I hate to be annoying, but I have a request. Is there any way we could get smaller and more frequent official updates on YOUR website? My Deskthority account seems broken, so I've never really been able to log in... which makes it harder to track your activity.
I've been searching for 40 years for a keyboard like the one I used when I visited my dad at work at IBM in the 80's as a young child. I bought a Unicomp buckling spring Model M style keyboard in the late 90's after they took over manufacturing the keyboards from IBM/Lexmark. It had a similar feel and sound but was not *quite* the same as I remembered. The original Model F demonstrated here sounds and looks like my memory! It actually exists! Of course I had to fall in love as a child with the most expensive and difficult to manufacture keyboard. :D Looking forward to building one of these!
Omg Been drooling the entire video Yup, gotta order one. Omfg yes. Re: price The three things you use constantly on a computer is keyboard, mouse, monitor. Paying for quality on any of these pays dividends immediately
Straight out of a 70s spy/scifi movie. I wouldn't want to impose this on myself or my coworkers but by god I was immediately teleported on the set of these movies.
My coworkers kindly asked me to stop using a standard M. If that were an F + solenoid, they would have thrown it directly out the window without asking.
Capacitive buckling springs in a modernised materially buffed up configurable Model M ?: More exciting than wearing a full body wool suit and rolling around wildly on a polyester carpet !!!. It's remarkable how timelessly accomplished the buckling spring design is. Ups and occasional downs, but what a board. Thanks as always for another year of top notch content in your intiminable style. Happy and restful holidays, Thomas :-)
The easiest (and safest) way to secure a spring is using a micro-file. You pull the red rubber handle from the file and (using a sharp knife) cut the end off the handle. This makes a rubber tube that can be slid over the spring (holding it firmly in place), while the handle end of the file can then be slid into the red handle, firmly compressing the spring. I first did this with a Model M, and some 20 years on, I've never damaged a spring, and am still using the same handle and file combination.
Great review! I didn't bother getting the solenoid on mine since I love the regular capacitive click sound anyway. Yes, it does take a bit to set up, but you are rewarded with a long-term keyboard that will probably outlast myself. I needed a standard 104 layout, so this keyboard was my dream come true. I did opt for some color keycaps from Unicomp to make the keyboard a bit more interesting. They have red Escape keys and some other colors available. Overall, it can't be understated how fantastic this keyboard is. I've been using mine for just over 2 months now. Thankfully, I didn't have any controller issues. I just had to tweak a couple of keycaps that stuck, but following the directions in his setup video fixed that.
just got my hands on an ibm KB-8926 childhood memories unlocked but I still have my eyes on this keyboard. Not a lot of reviews on them and this video is highly regarded, thank you
@@gajible9784 I would imagine matching the color correctly would be very difficult. Even if you secure original Mopar key caps, who knows whether/how the color has changed and faded with time.
This is most certainly a bucket list keyboard for me one day, my current desk wouldnt support the large size I want, but it looks worth something to consider when I do redo my setup one day.. 5 years ago I got a big 108 Topre RGB and modded in the BKE domes and silencers. To this day sometimes I will be rapidly typing on it and still find myself in awe of how pleasant it is. Keyboards are the epitome of 'get a good one and she will make you smile for years and years'. Like splurging on a really good pair of fitted shoes, but luckily they do not wear out nearly as fast.
Yes agreed it is definitely an end game keyboard for many folks! There are ultra compact cases and smaller keyboard layouts if you prefer something that takes up less desk space, such as the F62, F77, or FSSK.
I weep to think how many thousands of those glorious old IBM keyboards we threw out back in the days of 10000+ seat hardware upgrades. Literal skips full of just the peripherals….
Saving up to buy one for my birthday. Going to be a problem when we move to an open office plan at the end of 2025. But if I have to choose between my current employer and a model f keyboard the keyboard will win.
As someone who refurbished an original F XT, it's not for the faint of heart and it's not a cheap endeavour. After sourcing a good candidate and all of the parts and shipping to make it like new, I'm into it almost as much as one of Joe's boards, not including my hours of labour. That said, I now have an original F with VIAL compatibility so it's completely reprogrammable. I'll always encourage folks to save an original, but you should go into it fully aware of what's waiting for you. If that sounds too daunting, buy one of these.
I also restored an original F XT and i use a soarer's convertor. Was it easy for you to set up VIAL? I set mine up years ago having to type up commands in a notepad which was archaic at best.
@da_head I used TinkerBOY's DIN to USB adapter. It's plug and play VIAL ready. Easy as plugging it in and opening VIAL - the XT layout was there to modify from the get go.
These keyboards are heirloom grade electronics, will never become obsolete, as time goes on they can only increase in value. You'd be foolish buying less than two of them.
Yes! And the good thing with the new F122 is that those keys are individually programmable just like the other keys (some keyboards only output Shift+F1 for F13 for example).
I have an original model f122 and it's amazing indeed. i have a reproduction beamspring or b122 on order. when i get that, i plan to sell my current f122 to fund a new f122 with the modern layout. i've mostly adjusted to not having the f keys separated but am looking forward to this form factor but with the f keys separated.
When Ellipse announced a standard layout Model F, it was the quickest project I ever backed. I got mine in September and it absolutely lives up to expectations. It is the holy grail of keyboards. The feel of an F with the layout of an M. The assembly was annoying, but I understand why it had to be that way for cost reasons.
Pretty much the keyboard I've been waiting for all my life. Price is steep and not in impulse buy territory, but hopefully I can convince myself to spend the money before they're all gone.
ModernClassic I urge caution before ordering one of these, while they are an OK replica, if you receive a keyboard that has visible signs of shipping damage - scratches, dents, paint chips etc you will NOT be covered. So if you must have one, use a credit card just in case!
Unlike most of the computer pheripherals I'd say that Model F keyboard is an investment: No matter what happens the price of these things is not going to go down over time.
@@MaxLein It's not a key I use that often, so I just put it on a second layer, and being the caps lock my FN key it's an easy key to press (I set FN+tab to bring back the caps lock, that is another easy combination). But also mind that you have 5 extra keys on the nav cluster, I put there F2 and F4 as an example (I use excel every now and then). Or I guess you can get the split backspace and put it there, or even shift the whole number row of one key. Or get an HHKB style right shift or iso left shift to put it there, (I think it has been done by a few vintage keyboards with not 100% standard layouts)
@@karellen00 I use both, tilde and Escape with regularity, including versions where I combine a modifier key with either of them. Lookswise, the F77 is probably one of the prettiest keyboards ever made. I really dig the design. I actually like the flexibility you have with the “nav cluster”. If the F77 were the only keyboard I'd ever regularly use, then I probably still would have gone for it. But I do use my laptop's keyboard regularly (e. g. right now). I'm very happy you love yours!
it was SO validating for me to start thinking, "gee, I think my keyboard DOES have a synchronized actualization and click" then hear you say one of those few modern switches which do this are my Razer opto-electric clickies, but what did you mean by LK? when I googled to find out about LK, I did find a chart I believe shows my purple switches are click and actuation synced. That's what it feels like to me. Razer is a real shit of a company sometimes but I do love these opto-electric key switches, there wasn't anything like it when I bought it years ago, and seems like maybe still not. I would love to get a chance to spend real time with something like this model F clone though, I think I'd love these crisp loud old-style models.
I took delivery of my Model F on Tuesday. +The feel is amazing. I have only had experience with Model Ms and Matias (mechanical) keyboards mostly, so key feel is great. They feel a bit lighter compared to the Model Ms (going from memory) and they “sing” more. I can feel the vibrations if I let my fingers rest on the keycap after a keystroke. Love, love the feel. + The case is super sturdy. I don't know how heavy this thing is, because my kitchen scale maxes out at 3 kg. ;-) 0 It took a while to set up, two keys were giving me trouble and I had to play with the space bar stabilizer to get it right. But I think now everything is fine. I think putting 2 spare springs in the box would also help as I nearly lost a spring on two occasions. 0 I'd add an option for a USB-C (as opposed to USB-A) cable. I know I can replace it myself, but it'd be nice to have the option when ordering. - The only negative is the finish of the case. The case came with imperfections, a small dent in between the Pause key and the Num Lock light and chipped off paint on the top case. Those are things that should have been caught by QC during manufacturing and/or prevented by proper packaging. Yes, I know about the terms, but given the price, I am disappointed.
Thanks for your feedback Max and glad you are liking your new Model F Keyboard! As we discussed over email, all keyboard cases have minor casting defects and defects in the paint finish. The defects you noted could easily be painted over with a paint pen or regular acrylic paint for your black case keyboard. As I explained to you, it is not a matter of catching it before shipping, as sometimes paint may flake during the rough transit over thousands of miles as there is friction between the protective foam packaging and the keyboard case. This is the nature of painted items without any protective glossy coating. The tradeoff is that defects are more likely but a glossy coating would not look appropriate for a reproduction of these old style paint jobs.
@@Brand_New_Model_F_Keyboards You have clearly spent a lot of time, blood, sweat and tears into making this keyboard a reality. I have wanted a keyboard like this for a very, very long time and am happy that it came to fruition. I have owned several Model Ms in the past, and this is a step up in terms of key feel, a joy to type on, especially once it is properly broken in. That's why I am surprised that after you have put so much effort into the project, you stop short of making sure e. g. the keyboards are packaged correctly. Thomas' first review unit also arrived broken and he mentioned in his review that keyboards may be damaged during shipping. So it seems this is not an isolated incident. I cannot say whether in my case the paint chipped during manufacture or during shipping, but if I put myself in your shoes, damage during shipping and handling is the last thing I would want. I have shipped my bikes across countries and continents (carbon road bikes and carbon and aluminium mountain bikes), and they have never been damaged during shipping, because I packaged them correctly. If I order a laptop, a monitor, a TV or, hmm, a keyboard, I also never had to worry whether they would be damaged during shipping. Even if they were, I knew I would be made whole as such expensive items are insured during shipping. Given what I paid for shipping (not a complaint), I would assume my Model F was insured appropriately and any damage during transport would be covered by UPS' insurance. Regarding paint, my road bike has a custom paint job, and I would have refused delivery if it had a big paint chip and was told “this happens”. This bike now has blemishes and imperfections due to regular use, and this is fine. I'm not mad at the bike shop. But as a customer I have to assume you did your research (and I am sure you did), and you only offer finishes and paints that satisfy your quality standards. Chipped paint out of the box would not satisfy mine, especially given the price.
@@MaxLein Actually it was close to an isolated incident; over 6,000 keyboards have shipped since 2019 and only a very small percentage are heavily damaged in shipping, far less than 0.5%, though all cases have minor casting defects and cosmetic imperfections. The foam packaging is custom molded for these keyboards and is good for 99%+ of the time. You can't compare the coating of a bike with this project's uncoated matte paint finish. It is by design that this paint is uncoated, in order to match the IBM originals, so this means it is prone to cosmetic wear, same as with the IBM originals.
@@Brand_New_Model_F_Keyboards I cannot speak to defect rates, I take your word for it. Maybe I did get unlucky and there is selection bias as to who posts here in the comments. But Model F Keyboards is a business, not a hobby, so customers expect to get items with manufacture defects or that got damaged during shipping replaced. That's doubly true if defect rates are as low as you have reported. Regarding paint, I think you missed my point: I have experience with custom paint jobs on expensive, low-volume items, and know that things can go wrong. I know enough, though, to know that matching paint colors well is not easy and it often looks worse when you try to “fix” paint. Secondly, I wasn't complaining about “cosmetic wear” (which I thought your terms were aiming at), this was an out-of-the-box defect that happened during manufacture or shipping. I hadn't even assembled the keyboard at this point, much less typed on it. I'll leave it at that. Like I wrote in my initial post, I'm happy the project exists and can only imagine how much work it was to make it happen.
@@MaxLein By continuing to post the same points again and again about your expectations, you are painting (no pun intended) a false picture of the project. In the current batch only a few folks had some paint damage the size of a few mm as you did. For those who are reading this, we are talking about a few millimeters on the back of the case, not some huge gouge or scratch across the entire front of the case that would be a different story. You have made a big issue out of something that most people would not care at all about because it takes one minute to fix, shorter than the time it took to write all these comments. I understand your perspective that it is only right you expect me pay for $50 in "free" international shipping and $50 on a replacement case for a part with a slight chip in the back, when a $5 sample can of paint from your local paint store will fix it, but I have explained on the product pages and the terms and conditions that I am not willing to pass along these costs of cosmetic case imperfections to less picky customers and make an already expensive keyboard possibly unaffordable for more people. The general project philosophy is that the end user is responsible for setting up and maintaining their keyboard, and fixing the easily fixable things such as keys and springs needing reseating, or touching up the case with a bit of paint. Every case has defects such as tiny casting imperfections, if you look hard enough; these are not automotive or bicycle finish products. The project has been 100% consistent with this policy for the past 5 years since shipping started, so it is nothing new or different from a previous policy. You would be absolutely right to expect no defects on a product, unless it was specified on every keyboard product page and in the terms and conditions during checkout that cosmetic defects are unfortunately to be expected with the type of paint finish and die casting process being used here (not like a bicycle or car). Many manufacturers even specify that their product is allowed to have a number of visible defects before a warranty claim can be made, such as certain computer monitors with pixel warranties, so it is not true that all companies are required by business rules to guarantee perfect products with free replacements and free international shipping. Again we will have to agree to disagree here. You agreed to the project's terms when you submitted your order and the terms were clear with bolded emphasis; I didn't agree to any other standard. The main reason why people love these great old style keyboards is not that they look perfect now and forever more, but that they can maintain and keep using them hopefully for decades more, even when some paint begins to wear down or flake off in the future, just like a professor's well-worn briefcase, a badge of honor for a long-tenured career.
I am still so pleased on the language options. It's abit.. hard at times to find them in native key layouts as a EU person here. Honestly. Been eying the keyboards on the repro for ages now but its allways been "when i have enough income to consider it"
I finally had the money spare to get my hands on an F77 all these years after following the project's early days But the entire time one of these was calling my name I'll be back for you someday F104, or perhaps your SSK sibling lol
I really want one and hopefully will get one. I wish that the keycaps were two part and the Windows keys had the Windows logo, but I'm guessing that old caps will work for most keys. Maybe the requirement to disassemble to detach the cable could be mitigated with fitting a very short extension cable. With this said I still think that this is very well done and a really good option.
I found them expensive but not overpriced. I've replaced so many keyboards over the years. Having one designed to last you decades is a good investment really, at least for me.
How does the force to depress the keys in the Model F compare to the Model M? I had to stop using my Model M because it contributed to / exacerbated RSI tendonitis, because of the force required to bang on it. I currently use a NiZ 35-45g electrocapacitive switch keyboard. I know the Model F springs will be much louder and probably require more force to actuate, but how much? Thanks!
Might be the mic but your solenoid sounds a bit more percussive than mine. I mounted mine with double sided foam tape instead of the screws and that might have taken the edge off. Not sure which I like better.
I love the model m, but I will say that for office work it is too loud. Try typing during a online meeting. Solo work, yes. With that said, I love seeing how heavy this keyboard is.
Model F Labs sources those from Unicomp, so if you want one, you need to request it specially. Model F Labs' standard Caps Lock keys are non-stepped (for some reason).
@@zpxlng I know, but getting him to ship to a freight forwarder so I can get a single key cap into Russia sounds excessively expensive, especially since his shipping fee is already quite high. I wish I had known he even had stepped caps locks earlier (I did search all over his website, it's not an item he lists anywhere as far as I can tell), I'd have asked him to include one with my kishsaver.
I've been wanting to try out a stagged column keyboard, but also hugely facinated by decent clicky keyboards of yester-year, and having a decent amount of buttons, I much prefer a "full" nav-less design over a numless or those tiny retarded "minimal" keyboards with 4 rows and needing to memorise a half dozen modifiers. the fact that the Model F had more experimentation in the "More buttons is actually better" designs than current year, is kinda mind boggling. I'm running the GMMK 2 96% with Box Jade because it's the only navless in my country that I could put decent switches in. I always found the Nav area a waste of space when it doubles up with the Numpad, just that the layout is a bit wonky, and the numless layouts even stupider since the number pad is still useful, especially with some games that need lots of bottons like flight sims. My dream keyboard would be stagged column modification to your traditional navless ANSI Model M layout, maybe with a few extra thumb buttons, and a 2x6 F12+ key row down the left side for extra stuff, I'm left handed so a numpad on the left wouldn't be the worst idea either.
If talking about quality alone, unfortunately the Unicomp model M's aren't in the same league. I think Thomas wanted to touch more on the model F than the model M.
I think you desk resonates much, especialy with SPACE ;) But as i rember from 30 years ago, sounds match perfectly. Sometimes prefect imitation comes by accident, i write now on some logi K270 which livley reminds me C64 keyboard feel 😅 With selenoid will attract people who want to be send for remote work again, only for electric typewriters lovers ;)
If I had the money I'd order a model F battleship on the spot. I grew up using a model M as a kid and I don't have anything larger than a TKL at the moment.
so its built like a brick shithouse, and priced accordingly. I checked it out and saw the $399 price, then you said it was made entirely of metal, and the price made more sense. Very cool project. (Typed on an M23!)
This keyboard ruined my keyboard hobby. I literally don't feel the need to have so many mechanical keyboards anymore. This one, a gaming keyboard with linear switches, and a low profile one that I can carry to work, and… that's it? I could sell the rest (except a Model M perhaps).
The part about having to reseat springs out of the box would kill me. I've owned several IBM model M/Fs and every one has had at least a few springs that actuate ever so slightly lower or higher than the others. I would spend hours a day pulling springs out and reseating them with a chopstick until the endgrain would go completely smooth, ordering new ones if I bent them, so on and so fourth. Worst part was getting the actuation point just right but then something else would be off, like the key would be slightly less tactile or the ping wouldn't sound quite right. Model Ms would have barrels that just wouldn't click as loud with any spring and model Fs would have the risk of springs not pinging the same as the others. I swear don't have OCD but when it comes to keyboards I tend to lose my mind with consistency. Also don't get me started with Topre, Topre domes are never consistently weighted no matter what and there will always be a few domes that are less tactile than the rest (yes I know for a fact I have uniform keyboards, the inconsistent weighting is NOT in the pattern of a variable weight one, I even had it happen on an HHKB), which is strange since regular rubber domes tend to be perfectly consistent.
Sticking with my black Unicomp 101 with green LEDs (daily driver), 1981 model F (backup), multiple model Ms and Fs in my collection. For $400 I can acquire pretty much any vintage IBM keyboard, collectible or not, except maybe some of the vintage beamers. No way am I spending my money on one of these "reproductions."
There was no model F with the layouts of model M. So, they are a unique product. There's also an option for beam spring instead of F, which is totally unique
It is as lovely of an endgame keyboard as I could imagine, seriously it is perfect. Save for one thing, for that outlay of money having to do maintenance OOB is a bit tough to swallow especially when you might need to plonk down another 50 for a repair kit. I think that is a miss.
That's not maintenance; that's just the normal setup experience of a Model F - having to install keys and adjust some of the springs so that they are properly positioned, since these are not self-contained switches. The spring is just press fit onto the flipper nub without being secured by glue. You do not have to pay for a maintenance kit to set up your keyboard; that is not true.
@@Brand_New_Model_F_Keyboards I appreciate that greatly. You could probably make a bit of money on the side selling conversion kits for Unicomp Model M's
I bought one of the first Model F keyboards, but I honestly disliked it due to the metallic sound and "feel" (though it was the sound that bothered me most and made me stop using it). Do their newer versions reduce that sound and feeling at all? My daily driver is the Unicomp New Model M, which is not as nice as a real IBM, but it is close, and I personally vastly prefer it to the Model F I have.
@@Chyrosran22 Yes, I can confirm that. The sound is *very* different, as is the key feel. The Model F feels softer (as in less actuation force is needed). Although it's been decades since I typed on a *new* Model M, so it may not be fair to compare a Model M with literally decades of use under its belt to a new Model F reproduction.
Great review! Though I must say I am a bit sceptical when it comes to the shipping causing these issues you described. From what I've heard about fellow community members shipping buckling springs, and from my own experience shipping them, springs getting dislocated isn't an issue any of us experienced. Also, while Unicomp keyboards can come with keys dislodged, I've never heard of them arriving with the same happening to the springs. EDIT: My theory is that the issue stems from either QC issues or the fact the keyboards are shipped without caps. Also, F/XTs tend to go for around $75 to $120 depending on how patient you are.
Considering my F77 repro didn't have a completely assembled keyboard assembly (only the front clips were actually attacked to anything, the back clips weren't and the thing was just loose) and when I asked about that they claimed it was from shipping, something that shipping couldn't possibly have caused, I can guarantee that the claim that shipping causes these issues is to cover up for poor QC and to avoid having to process returns for faulty boards.
Seems like indifferent assembly and minimal inspection and testing. If they're selling it unfinished they should be forthcoming about it _and_ provide spares and tools for the spring adjustments.
This is not correct. I have shipped maybe 100 new Model F keyboards with keycaps installed and they still required spring adjustments. The very first batch had the factory install blank keycaps to some boards as a test. As I have noted many times, there are hundreds of variations of the new production keyboards and if I multiplied that by the dozens of available key sets it would not be feasible to install the keys for such a small production batch. The keyboards are sold completely finished and tested but without the keycaps installed.
@@Brand_New_Model_F_Keyboards The keyboards can't be fully tested if the keycaps aren't installed, come on. Especially when so many of the issues people experience are the result of misaligned springs, which you would certainly need to install keycaps (thus completing the keyswitches) to test and notice. How are the keyboards "tested", exactly? If it's not practical for you to install everyone's key sets due to the small-scale, boutique nature of the operation, that's fine, but in any case I agree that a repair kit of some kind should be included with the product, not a pricey extra, since these small issues are apparently fairly likely to occur. Are they a QC issue or a shipping issue? From the customer's point of view, why should it matter? Personally, like other commenters, I'm sceptical of the 'rough handling' explanation. I have both sent and received plenty of IBM buckling spring keyboards internationally - Ms and Fs - and not once has a correctly-aligned spring somehow rotated slightly or come loose during the shipping process. Somehow they survive the punting and pummelling of the malicious, grunting ape-men who staff the cargo holds of international flights nowadays (or so we are to believe). Whether the springs are misaligned before or during shipping, it seems to be a problem that affects Model F Labs keyboards - not IBM, Lexmark, or Unicomp keyboards. So no matter the specific cause of the issue, as far as responsibility for it, the finger points at Model F Labs.
@@zpxlng Not correct. Each key position is fully tested and each spring assembly is inspected - if you check out the recently updated manual you would see how this is done. There is a special feature that is part of the pandrew utility that allows each key position to be tested. Keycaps do not have to be installed. This program is a great way to test key positions that are not working. Of course it is correct that the user has to install the keys and make sure a correctly installed key works as a last step towards getting the keyboard ready to go. A repair kit is not necessary to have a working keyboard. Parts do not break during a normal installation so it is not expected, though getting extras is highly recommended. Also regarding new versus original keyboards, many original IBM boards in general are much lighter because they tend to have plastic cases, and lighter keyboards are less likely to generate so much force when they are dropped so as to cause damage. They have also had decades for the springs to oxidize in place on the flipper nubs so after 40 years they are not as likely to move as a fresh board.
I feel like the only reason Tom used pounds and tootsies was out of respect for the fact that the model F is an american invention. Otherwise he wouldn't have bothered.
Sorry, for $399+ I'm not going through all this nonsense. Charging a premium price for what is essentially a product that is guaranteed to have issues, and droning on about warranty is a bad look. Dont get me wrong, I understand what we're trying to accomplish here. The barrier to entry is just too high.
The keyboard is not guaranteed to have issues; that is false. The springs are not glued onto the nubs so they do move around as the keyboard is roughly handled by the shipping companies. Part of setup involves moving springs back into place which is very easy to do. The video in the manual shows how it takes less than a minute. There is a reason that people have been maintaining these keyboards for the past 40 years even though they have to go through an hour setup - they really are the Best Keyboards Ever as many folks say.
Eh, my repro F77 had 2 keycaps which were molded very incorrectly from the factory, and replacements weren’t covered under any warranty. I had to pay for one of the replacement caps as well as shipping…other people I know have had warped cases or damaged paint finishes on their brand new keyboards too. I appreciate that these exist, but receiving a keyboard in good, new condition without major defects is clearly something the seller doesn’t care about. It’s never a good look to be very picky about warranty issues either. If QC was where it should have been in the first place I doubt that would have been a problem too.
@@zacharyc6549 This post gives a false impression of the product. While cosmetic issues with the cases are not usually covered, if a key is damaged it will be replaced as an exception to that general rule, which I noted in the email to this customer. I said I would send a replacement for this customer. I just checked my email history now. The customer decided to pay for 2 of the 3 keys which was nice but completely unnecessary. Maybe there was a miscommunication - but I said that I would replace a damaged key as an exception (maybe this customer thought they would only get 1 free replacement? Doesn't make sense but my apologies if it was not clear). The keys appear to have been gouged in shipping on the edges of the keys. The cases may be off by a mm or so but I would not exaggerate the case as being "warped" as aluminum and zinc tend to change shape slightly as they cool, especially for such large and heavy parts, which is why they are held in cooling jigs after die casting is completed. QC has been the most important part of this project which is why the project was years late as I rejected various quality issues. It is not a "QC" problem if a few keycaps are damaged in transit and then replaced.
@@Brand_New_Model_F_Keyboards lol, "many folks say" that IBM Model F keyboards "are the Best Keyboards Ever", not YOURS. I understand you've worked very hard on these modern Fs but it's beyond incorrect to conflate the two: it's misleading and arrogant. It is IBM's Model Fs that people have been maintaining for the past 40 years, not yours, and THEY didn't have to go through an hour setup as far as I'm aware. Maybe your keyboards will be loved and maintained for decades to come, but that hasn't happened yet. Just because you're copying IBM, you can't presume to inherit the legacy and good reputation of THEIR keyboards. Watch how you phrase things.
There are no potential issues to worry about during shipping - everyone has to install the keys and adjust some springs as needed to set up the keyboard. You need no special skills or knowledge to set up the board - just follow the video and read the manual and even a beginner will be fine!
Considering this is a 400$ purchase that requires you to complete a reading assignment, watch an hour long video, and then manually tune the keyboard to fix their bad QC you aren't exactly getting a quality product are you? You're getting a bunch of unique parts and that's it. If you happen to get shipped a working keyboard that's cool, and if you get shipped a broken one that's not their problem and they can change the contents of the warranty before sending you a copy such that none of your issues are covered under the warranty. Would they do such a thing? Better question is are you willing to spend 400$ to find out? Cause that's a thing they can do currently, though it's not something they should be doing. They are currently violating FTC rules regarding the warranty by not providing one on the website and only providing one on request. IIRC this also means they're violating similar EU rules here by having the full terms of the ToS/warranty only available on request. Any company that tries to get you to enter a legally binding agreement without providing the full text of that agreement to you is scummy enough that you should avoid them regardless of what service or product they offer.
This is completely false; the project complies with all requirements. There is no rule requiring what you are discussing; that is not correct at all. The project has been around for about 10 years and there have been no changes. You can read the full terms and conditions on the project web site page linked at the bottom of the home page. The keyboards are fully tested and fully assembled except for the keycaps and small add ons like the bumpers/feet. The manual explains why the end user has to install the keys and adjust springs because they may have fallen out of place due to rough shipping.
I ABSOLUTELY LOVE the typewriter sound effects this beast of a keyboard produces. The one thing that doesn't make sense is why the keyboard has Classic Korean but no Classic Chinese as one of the languages to choose from. 🤔🤔🤔
Someone has a strange idea in the UK at least of how consumer protection works. I don't buy a product and then need to spend $49 to fix it if it's been damaged in transit. The supplier needs to send me one that works,..... He can claim as much limited warranty as he likes but that's illegal under the UK sales of goods act and it's supplementary legislation. If he can't comply with UK legislation he shouldn't be selling to the UK, the USA authorities don't tolerate the reverse...
Completely false; no one has to spend $49 to fix a product damaged in transit. The product will be supported and free replacement parts are sent in the event of something broken in shipping. The purpose of the first aid kits and other spare parts is for repairs and maintenance, including fixing things long after the project has shut down, and in case you break something while cleaning something or if something is accidentally dropped in the future.
@@Brand_New_Model_F_Keyboards Then will you be sending MaxLein a replacement case then? He literally told you in this comment section that his case came permanently damaged (dented) and you told him it was normal. Absolute melt. You realise your shady practices are going to blow up in your face now that you're getting noticed outside of DT?
@@wobbled5609 Not correct, the case had minor casting defects in the back due to the die casting process, along with some chipped paint in the back which can be fixed with some paint. The limited warranty and product pages clearly indicate that cosmetic defects are to be expected. My note was that if the keyboard arrived with broken parts like a keycap that got smashed, that they would be replaced. The keyboard operation is not affected by a small chip of lost paint in the back. No one has to order a keyboard; if you don't agree to the terms regarding the limited warranty and cosmetic damage, which are clearly noted on every keyboard page and in the terms and conditions, then you can feel free to consider other alternatives.
@@Brand_New_Model_F_Keyboards No you are wrong. Chipped paint is a sign of shipping damage and is not acceptable. I wouldn't accept a brand new product with chipped anything. MaxLein described a dent as well, which is yet more proof of shipping damage. You can throw your 'limited warranty' shite around all day pal, if you ship something that gets damaged in transit, my bank or credit provider are going to be getting that money back from you whether you like it or not. It's your responsibility to make sure your products arrive with no damage, and to replace them when they do get damaged. 'The keyboard operation is not effected by a small chip of lost paint' Are you fucking hearing yourself? Would you accept a brand new car with a ding and missing paint? No. We as consumers have a right to expect any new product to arrive free of DAMAGE. Ok there might be blemishes - Unicomp had their fair share of this, but a dent and a paint chip is not a blemish, it's damage. Replace it and stop being a dick. As for buying your products, that's really up to me to decide, I don't think I could support you anymore despite having bought thousands of dollars worth of both vintage M's F's and a couple of your replicas.One things for sure though, if my shit did arrive damaged, you'd either be replacing it free of charge, or you'll be refunding the entire order. Your limited warranty shit doesn't fly in most countries. You have gone from a passionate hobbyist to an actual scumbag whos ONLY motivation is money.
Sounds like it's ironically pretty fragile given what a tank the case is. Edit: I mean precision mechanism. Like a Swiss watch wrapped in a Sherman tank.
I would not call a keyboard fragile because you have to install the keys and move around the springs after they are moved around in shipping. Model F keyboards are built to last and many have survived in working condition since the 1980s.
@@Brand_New_Model_F_Keyboards Yes, many IBM Model F keyboards have survived in working condition since the 1980s. This commenter, however, was referring to the Model F Labs keyboards featured in the video.
@Brand_New_Model_F_Keyboards I hope my comment didn't feel like an insult. Thank you for bringing these back for us to enjoy. You truly are doing God's work!
Not correct; there are thousands of international customers for the project. The international shipping price is around $75. The shipping price is higher than other keyboards because this keyboard weighs 5 times as much as other keyboards and more weight means higher cost.
@@Brand_New_Model_F_Keyboards I know. And I don't blame the manufacturer. My guess is buckling spring switches are not very popular in Europe. It's a niche thing here. And I live in Eastern Europe, it's sometimes too expensive for us here.
Why would it be? The main cost is the mold. Molds can cost more than cars! They are very expensive and the quantity is far lower for the FSSK compared to the F104, so the cost cannot be spread among a mass production volume.
Thanks Chyrosran22 for a terriffic review of the Brand New Model F Model M style case F104 Keyboard! This may be the ultimate Model F keyboard video for years to come! I feel that the review was fair and addressed the positives and negatives accurately so that everyone can make an informed decision about these keyboards.
Based on our very helpful discussions and some discussions with others, I have added some text to the FAQ part of each keyboard page that helps to set expectations for the project as clearly as possible. It helps explain the battle between the competing ideologies of buy it for life, right (and responsibility) to maintain/repair etc. vs. the standard big company one-year unlimited warranty, planned obsolescence, and everything is done for you. I have ordered many extra parts from the factory and the great thing about the Model F is that everything is repairable - if a small part breaks or whatnot, it can be replaced without any specialized knowledge or equipment outside of what is in the setup video and manual. A new Model F keyboard never has to be thrown in a landfill because it can be fixed quite easily and reasonably.
Regarding the solenoid volume, there are two ways to make it lower (outside of the ability to toggle it on and off using a key combination command): you can install it with the 2 included rubber grommets/washers between the solenoid and case, as was done for the keyboards in the video, and you can also reduce the throw length of the solenoid's cylinder by adjusting the 2 screws on the solenoid as shown in the manual on the project web site (the keyboards in the video had it at full length).
A big thanks to NathanA for the project moving to Vial firmware! Deskthority forum member NathanA is responsible for making all of these great old style keyboards work with Vial.
Regarding the first aid kit, the kit includes 22 small parts plus the replacement inner foam; each small spare part like a barrel or flipper with spring is also available individually for $1 or $2, plus the $25 replacement inner foam. The kit is the exact cost of the individual parts that make up the kit, without discount or markup. Everyone can also get individual flippers with springs as well for $1 each if you want more than the 10 spare flippers with springs in the kit or if you only want extra flippers with springs.
Hi, I'm an F77 owner and have an order in for the beamspring round 2. I hate to be annoying, but I have a request.
Is there any way we could get smaller and more frequent official updates on YOUR website? My Deskthority account seems broken, so I've never really been able to log in... which makes it harder to track your activity.
I use one of your F77 at work and I admit to being very tempted to get this one...
Im planning on getting a F62 or F77 next month to replace my dying razer from 10 years ago
Just received mine today and good lord. It’s a helluva thing.
Hiya Clint! Yeah I figured you'd like these too :D .
How’s it been going since that hurricane? I hope you’re fine!
Good to see you here Clint!
So glad you're still making great vids, 10 years later :)
Cheers mate :D .
I've been searching for 40 years for a keyboard like the one I used when I visited my dad at work at IBM in the 80's as a young child. I bought a Unicomp buckling spring Model M style keyboard in the late 90's after they took over manufacturing the keyboards from IBM/Lexmark. It had a similar feel and sound but was not *quite* the same as I remembered. The original Model F demonstrated here sounds and looks like my memory! It actually exists! Of course I had to fall in love as a child with the most expensive and difficult to manufacture keyboard. :D Looking forward to building one of these!
Omg
Been drooling the entire video
Yup, gotta order one. Omfg yes.
Re: price
The three things you use constantly on a computer is keyboard, mouse, monitor. Paying for quality on any of these pays dividends immediately
The solenoid took it to the next level. My god that sounds glorious.
Straight out of a 70s spy/scifi movie. I wouldn't want to impose this on myself or my coworkers but by god I was immediately teleported on the set of these movies.
My coworkers kindly asked me to stop using a standard M. If that were an F + solenoid, they would have thrown it directly out the window without asking.
Want to convince your boss that maybe the return-to-office mandate wasn't his best idea? Get the solenoid!
Aye my douche bag got me angry
pettiness on 100% 😆
The solenoid option is pure brilliance.
Capacitive buckling springs in a modernised materially buffed up configurable Model M ?: More exciting than wearing a full body wool suit and rolling around wildly on a polyester carpet !!!. It's remarkable how timelessly accomplished the buckling spring design is. Ups and occasional downs, but what a board. Thanks as always for another year of top notch content in your intiminable style. Happy and restful holidays, Thomas :-)
Happy hols to you too! :)
I'm not even as keyboard mad as I once was, I just love watching these videos. Cheers mate
Ive been anticipating this one for quite awhile!
The easiest (and safest) way to secure a spring is using a micro-file. You pull the red rubber handle from the file and (using a sharp knife) cut the end off the handle. This makes a rubber tube that can be slid over the spring (holding it firmly in place), while the handle end of the file can then be slid into the red handle, firmly compressing the spring. I first did this with a Model M, and some 20 years on, I've never damaged a spring, and am still using the same handle and file combination.
This begs for a TH-cam video.
Great review! I didn't bother getting the solenoid on mine since I love the regular capacitive click sound anyway. Yes, it does take a bit to set up, but you are rewarded with a long-term keyboard that will probably outlast myself. I needed a standard 104 layout, so this keyboard was my dream come true. I did opt for some color keycaps from Unicomp to make the keyboard a bit more interesting. They have red Escape keys and some other colors available. Overall, it can't be understated how fantastic this keyboard is. I've been using mine for just over 2 months now. Thankfully, I didn't have any controller issues. I just had to tweak a couple of keycaps that stuck, but following the directions in his setup video fixed that.
just got my hands on an ibm KB-8926 childhood memories unlocked but I still have my eyes on this keyboard. Not a lot of reviews on them and this video is highly regarded, thank you
I've been waiting for my F122 for nearly 2 years now, but watching this I know it's gonna be worth the wait!! Great vid as always
The factory is finishing up assembly on the F122 boards!
Those rare blue keycaps are proof that you're the coolest cat in the typing town.
Those are offered new from Ellipse and they're not quite the same blue as the Mopar ones, but cool nonetheless
Hahaha that ChatGPT script was wild wasn't it? xD
@@gajible9784 I would imagine matching the color correctly would be very difficult. Even if you secure original Mopar key caps, who knows whether/how the color has changed and faded with time.
Absolute work of art. If I didn't already have an F XT and a giant 4704 I'd hop on it.
This is most certainly a bucket list keyboard for me one day, my current desk wouldnt support the large size I want, but it looks worth something to consider when I do redo my setup one day.. 5 years ago I got a big 108 Topre RGB and modded in the BKE domes and silencers. To this day sometimes I will be rapidly typing on it and still find myself in awe of how pleasant it is. Keyboards are the epitome of 'get a good one and she will make you smile for years and years'. Like splurging on a really good pair of fitted shoes, but luckily they do not wear out nearly as fast.
Yes agreed it is definitely an end game keyboard for many folks! There are ultra compact cases and smaller keyboard layouts if you prefer something that takes up less desk space, such as the F62, F77, or FSSK.
That Intro was so satisfying to watch
That solenoid... Shots fired!
I weep to think how many thousands of those glorious old IBM keyboards we threw out back in the days of 10000+ seat hardware upgrades. Literal skips full of just the peripherals….
Cindy once mentioned she threw away an entire gaylord of NIB ZKB-2's, I died a little bit inside :( .
Saving up to buy one for my birthday. Going to be a problem when we move to an open office plan at the end of 2025. But if I have to choose between my current employer and a model f keyboard the keyboard will win.
As someone who refurbished an original F XT, it's not for the faint of heart and it's not a cheap endeavour. After sourcing a good candidate and all of the parts and shipping to make it like new, I'm into it almost as much as one of Joe's boards, not including my hours of labour.
That said, I now have an original F with VIAL compatibility so it's completely reprogrammable. I'll always encourage folks to save an original, but you should go into it fully aware of what's waiting for you. If that sounds too daunting, buy one of these.
I also restored an original F XT and i use a soarer's convertor. Was it easy for you to set up VIAL? I set mine up years ago having to type up commands in a notepad which was archaic at best.
@da_head I used TinkerBOY's DIN to USB adapter. It's plug and play VIAL ready. Easy as plugging it in and opening VIAL - the XT layout was there to modify from the get go.
I don't need it, I don't need it, I don't need it. I NEEEEED IT AHHHHH
Been there. Got my F104 with solenoid. Worth it.
These keyboards are heirloom grade electronics, will never become obsolete, as time goes on they can only increase in value.
You'd be foolish buying less than two of them.
I waffled for a long but I'm really glad I made the leap.
I am a programmer in the IBM space, and I actually use F13-F24 a lot. I REALLY need one of those F122 battleships.
Yes! And the good thing with the new F122 is that those keys are individually programmable just like the other keys (some keyboards only output Shift+F1 for F13 for example).
Very fair review. I love my FSSK, I have a BSSK coming to test out. They're a great company and it's a great community.
I miss the bigass enter key. It's very nostalgic to me. Brings me back to computer labs back in elementary school.
I have an original model f122 and it's amazing indeed. i have a reproduction beamspring or b122 on order. when i get that, i plan to sell my current f122 to fund a new f122 with the modern layout. i've mostly adjusted to not having the f keys separated but am looking forward to this form factor but with the f keys separated.
When Ellipse announced a standard layout Model F, it was the quickest project I ever backed. I got mine in September and it absolutely lives up to expectations.
It is the holy grail of keyboards. The feel of an F with the layout of an M. The assembly was annoying, but I understand why it had to be that way for cost reasons.
Guess I found the Christmas gift for myself this year
What an amazing piece of kit! :D And yeah the solenoid is ridiculous XD
5:47 Pounds? Pounds?? POUNDS??? We don't need no stinkin' pounds! As an American, I now have no idea how many flying crustaceanous wumpuses they are!
But how do you pay for things with no pounds???
What a rugpull. This feels like McNally not using another Masterlock 704 to open a Masterlock 704.
The solenoid is next level :D, it reminded of how the old type writers sound.
It gives the keyboard a very satisfying sort of "liveness", you can feel the impact ever so slightly. I love it personally
Chyros - replacing the loose springs is extremely easy with a matchstick as well. Shave it down slightly, stick it in the hole, pull it out.
You mean a wooden matchstick, right? Common in Europe, not so much in the US.
Pretty much the keyboard I've been waiting for all my life. Price is steep and not in impulse buy territory, but hopefully I can convince myself to spend the money before they're all gone.
Great! Hoping that you join the project! In the 80s these keyboards were actually 800 to 1000 dollars in today's dollars, adjusted for inflation.
it is in impulse buy territory for me:3
@@Brand_New_Model_F_Keyboards I am aware. I own several.
ModernClassic I urge caution before ordering one of these, while they are an OK replica, if you receive a keyboard that has visible signs of shipping damage - scratches, dents, paint chips etc you will NOT be covered. So if you must have one, use a credit card just in case!
Unlike most of the computer pheripherals I'd say that Model F keyboard is an investment: No matter what happens the price of these things is not going to go down over time.
Unless they're in Model F Labs' online shop, in which case the prices do, in fact, go down over time. Something for potential buyers to bear in mind.
I have an F77 exactly with these colors, industrial case and Mopar nav cluster and 1-2, it's an amazing keyboard
I originally ordered an F77, but then figured out I would want an Escape key that is separate from from the tilde key.
@@MaxLein It's not a key I use that often, so I just put it on a second layer, and being the caps lock my FN key it's an easy key to press (I set FN+tab to bring back the caps lock, that is another easy combination). But also mind that you have 5 extra keys on the nav cluster, I put there F2 and F4 as an example (I use excel every now and then). Or I guess you can get the split backspace and put it there, or even shift the whole number row of one key. Or get an HHKB style right shift or iso left shift to put it there, (I think it has been done by a few vintage keyboards with not 100% standard layouts)
@@karellen00 I use both, tilde and Escape with regularity, including versions where I combine a modifier key with either of them. Lookswise, the F77 is probably one of the prettiest keyboards ever made. I really dig the design. I actually like the flexibility you have with the “nav cluster”. If the F77 were the only keyboard I'd ever regularly use, then I probably still would have gone for it. But I do use my laptop's keyboard regularly (e. g. right now).
I'm very happy you love yours!
What a shock to just hear "pounds" like that in a Chyros video! Americans must be soiling themselves with pride.
I'm pretty sure it's close to ten stormtroopers and one TIE fighter in imperial units.
@@reindeerdashieIn freedom units 🦅*
Thomas was so overcome with joy that he forgot his customary insult of Imperial units. I can think of no higher praise for a keyboard!
Its so good it temporary cleared Thomas’s prodigious
it was SO validating for me to start thinking, "gee, I think my keyboard DOES have a synchronized actualization and click" then hear you say one of those few modern switches which do this are my Razer opto-electric clickies, but what did you mean by LK? when I googled to find out about LK, I did find a chart I believe shows my purple switches are click and actuation synced. That's what it feels like to me. Razer is a real shit of a company sometimes but I do love these opto-electric key switches, there wasn't anything like it when I bought it years ago, and seems like maybe still not. I would love to get a chance to spend real time with something like this model F clone though, I think I'd love these crisp loud old-style models.
I've made a teardown video showing in detail how these switches work, it shows exactly why they are inherently synced :) .
I am about to get a second one!
OMG.. thanks for video. I didn't even know that they made model F keyboard LOL!!! I will buy it now.
I took delivery of my Model F on Tuesday.
+The feel is amazing. I have only had experience with Model Ms and Matias (mechanical) keyboards mostly, so key feel is great. They feel a bit lighter compared to the Model Ms (going from memory) and they “sing” more. I can feel the vibrations if I let my fingers rest on the keycap after a keystroke. Love, love the feel.
+ The case is super sturdy. I don't know how heavy this thing is, because my kitchen scale maxes out at 3 kg. ;-)
0 It took a while to set up, two keys were giving me trouble and I had to play with the space bar stabilizer to get it right. But I think now everything is fine. I think putting 2 spare springs in the box would also help as I nearly lost a spring on two occasions.
0 I'd add an option for a USB-C (as opposed to USB-A) cable. I know I can replace it myself, but it'd be nice to have the option when ordering.
- The only negative is the finish of the case. The case came with imperfections, a small dent in between the Pause key and the Num Lock light and chipped off paint on the top case. Those are things that should have been caught by QC during manufacturing and/or prevented by proper packaging. Yes, I know about the terms, but given the price, I am disappointed.
Thanks for your feedback Max and glad you are liking your new Model F Keyboard! As we discussed over email, all keyboard cases have minor casting defects and defects in the paint finish. The defects you noted could easily be painted over with a paint pen or regular acrylic paint for your black case keyboard. As I explained to you, it is not a matter of catching it before shipping, as sometimes paint may flake during the rough transit over thousands of miles as there is friction between the protective foam packaging and the keyboard case. This is the nature of painted items without any protective glossy coating. The tradeoff is that defects are more likely but a glossy coating would not look appropriate for a reproduction of these old style paint jobs.
@@Brand_New_Model_F_Keyboards You have clearly spent a lot of time, blood, sweat and tears into making this keyboard a reality. I have wanted a keyboard like this for a very, very long time and am happy that it came to fruition. I have owned several Model Ms in the past, and this is a step up in terms of key feel, a joy to type on, especially once it is properly broken in.
That's why I am surprised that after you have put so much effort into the project, you stop short of making sure e. g. the keyboards are packaged correctly. Thomas' first review unit also arrived broken and he mentioned in his review that keyboards may be damaged during shipping. So it seems this is not an isolated incident. I cannot say whether in my case the paint chipped during manufacture or during shipping, but if I put myself in your shoes, damage during shipping and handling is the last thing I would want.
I have shipped my bikes across countries and continents (carbon road bikes and carbon and aluminium mountain bikes), and they have never been damaged during shipping, because I packaged them correctly. If I order a laptop, a monitor, a TV or, hmm, a keyboard, I also never had to worry whether they would be damaged during shipping. Even if they were, I knew I would be made whole as such expensive items are insured during shipping. Given what I paid for shipping (not a complaint), I would assume my Model F was insured appropriately and any damage during transport would be covered by UPS' insurance.
Regarding paint, my road bike has a custom paint job, and I would have refused delivery if it had a big paint chip and was told “this happens”. This bike now has blemishes and imperfections due to regular use, and this is fine. I'm not mad at the bike shop. But as a customer I have to assume you did your research (and I am sure you did), and you only offer finishes and paints that satisfy your quality standards. Chipped paint out of the box would not satisfy mine, especially given the price.
@@MaxLein Actually it was close to an isolated incident; over 6,000 keyboards have shipped since 2019 and only a very small percentage are heavily damaged in shipping, far less than 0.5%, though all cases have minor casting defects and cosmetic imperfections. The foam packaging is custom molded for these keyboards and is good for 99%+ of the time. You can't compare the coating of a bike with this project's uncoated matte paint finish. It is by design that this paint is uncoated, in order to match the IBM originals, so this means it is prone to cosmetic wear, same as with the IBM originals.
@@Brand_New_Model_F_Keyboards I cannot speak to defect rates, I take your word for it. Maybe I did get unlucky and there is selection bias as to who posts here in the comments. But Model F Keyboards is a business, not a hobby, so customers expect to get items with manufacture defects or that got damaged during shipping replaced. That's doubly true if defect rates are as low as you have reported.
Regarding paint, I think you missed my point: I have experience with custom paint jobs on expensive, low-volume items, and know that things can go wrong. I know enough, though, to know that matching paint colors well is not easy and it often looks worse when you try to “fix” paint.
Secondly, I wasn't complaining about “cosmetic wear” (which I thought your terms were aiming at), this was an out-of-the-box defect that happened during manufacture or shipping. I hadn't even assembled the keyboard at this point, much less typed on it.
I'll leave it at that. Like I wrote in my initial post, I'm happy the project exists and can only imagine how much work it was to make it happen.
@@MaxLein By continuing to post the same points again and again about your expectations, you are painting (no pun intended) a false picture of the project. In the current batch only a few folks had some paint damage the size of a few mm as you did. For those who are reading this, we are talking about a few millimeters on the back of the case, not some huge gouge or scratch across the entire front of the case that would be a different story. You have made a big issue out of something that most people would not care at all about because it takes one minute to fix, shorter than the time it took to write all these comments. I understand your perspective that it is only right you expect me pay for $50 in "free" international shipping and $50 on a replacement case for a part with a slight chip in the back, when a $5 sample can of paint from your local paint store will fix it, but I have explained on the product pages and the terms and conditions that I am not willing to pass along these costs of cosmetic case imperfections to less picky customers and make an already expensive keyboard possibly unaffordable for more people. The general project philosophy is that the end user is responsible for setting up and maintaining their keyboard, and fixing the easily fixable things such as keys and springs needing reseating, or touching up the case with a bit of paint. Every case has defects such as tiny casting imperfections, if you look hard enough; these are not automotive or bicycle finish products. The project has been 100% consistent with this policy for the past 5 years since shipping started, so it is nothing new or different from a previous policy. You would be absolutely right to expect no defects on a product, unless it was specified on every keyboard product page and in the terms and conditions during checkout that cosmetic defects are unfortunately to be expected with the type of paint finish and die casting process being used here (not like a bicycle or car). Many manufacturers even specify that their product is allowed to have a number of visible defects before a warranty claim can be made, such as certain computer monitors with pixel warranties, so it is not true that all companies are required by business rules to guarantee perfect products with free replacements and free international shipping. Again we will have to agree to disagree here. You agreed to the project's terms when you submitted your order and the terms were clear with bolded emphasis; I didn't agree to any other standard. The main reason why people love these great old style keyboards is not that they look perfect now and forever more, but that they can maintain and keep using them hopefully for decades more, even when some paint begins to wear down or flake off in the future, just like a professor's well-worn briefcase, a badge of honor for a long-tenured career.
I am still so pleased on the language options. It's abit.. hard at times to find them in native key layouts as a EU person here. Honestly. Been eying the keyboards on the repro for ages now but its allways been "when i have enough income to consider it"
I finally had the money spare to get my hands on an F77 all these years after following the project's early days
But the entire time one of these was calling my name
I'll be back for you someday F104, or perhaps your SSK sibling lol
The 4704 replica needs a cover on a hinge like a piano does with its keys!
That could even double as a tablet / phone stand!
I really want one and hopefully will get one. I wish that the keycaps were two part and the Windows keys had the Windows logo, but I'm guessing that old caps will work for most keys. Maybe the requirement to disassemble to detach the cable could be mitigated with fitting a very short extension cable.
With this said I still think that this is very well done and a really good option.
Typing with the solenoid sounds like you've stepped into a Call of Duty game. Take cover!
Is there any way to attach angled feet to this? Got the f122 on order and am hoping I can angle it.
Either stick on some wedges, or use bolted feet from another machine and stick those through the back panel.
Ooooh, mine is underways and I can hardly wait.
Is it insanely priced? Yes
Am I worth it? Probably not.
You're worth it.
I found them expensive but not overpriced. I've replaced so many keyboards over the years. Having one designed to last you decades is a good investment really, at least for me.
5:49 I can tell you’re feeling quite generous this Christmas 😊
Nice vid mate
With the Solenoid on, it sounds like my Wheelwriter lol
How does the force to depress the keys in the Model F compare to the Model M? I had to stop using my Model M because it contributed to / exacerbated RSI tendonitis, because of the force required to bang on it. I currently use a NiZ 35-45g electrocapacitive switch keyboard. I know the Model F springs will be much louder and probably require more force to actuate, but how much? Thanks!
No, a Model F has a lighter touch than a Model M. Only slightly though, not enough for your purposes, from what I'm reading.
What a machinegun of a keyboard!
with a solenoid, its the perfect office keyboard
the perfect library keyboard
Might be the mic but your solenoid sounds a bit more percussive than mine. I mounted mine with double sided foam tape instead of the screws and that might have taken the edge off. Not sure which I like better.
I love the model m, but I will say that for office work it is too loud. Try typing during a online meeting. Solo work, yes. With that said, I love seeing how heavy this keyboard is.
So jelly of those stepped caps locks.
Model F Labs sources those from Unicomp, so if you want one, you need to request it specially. Model F Labs' standard Caps Lock keys are non-stepped (for some reason).
@@zpxlng I know, but getting him to ship to a freight forwarder so I can get a single key cap into Russia sounds excessively expensive, especially since his shipping fee is already quite high. I wish I had known he even had stepped caps locks earlier (I did search all over his website, it's not an item he lists anywhere as far as I can tell), I'd have asked him to include one with my kishsaver.
This is a sensational creation, and nothing else to ever come out of the otherwise depressing and vulgar keyboard "hobby" even comes close.
Ooo, a big chunky solenoid, even :D I love that this exists
I've been wanting to try out a stagged column keyboard, but also hugely facinated by decent clicky keyboards of yester-year, and having a decent amount of buttons, I much prefer a "full" nav-less design over a numless or those tiny retarded "minimal" keyboards with 4 rows and needing to memorise a half dozen modifiers. the fact that the Model F had more experimentation in the "More buttons is actually better" designs than current year, is kinda mind boggling. I'm running the GMMK 2 96% with Box Jade because it's the only navless in my country that I could put decent switches in.
I always found the Nav area a waste of space when it doubles up with the Numpad, just that the layout is a bit wonky, and the numless layouts even stupider since the number pad is still useful, especially with some games that need lots of bottons like flight sims.
My dream keyboard would be stagged column modification to your traditional navless ANSI Model M layout, maybe with a few extra thumb buttons, and a 2x6 F12+ key row down the left side for extra stuff, I'm left handed so a numpad on the left wouldn't be the worst idea either.
No mention of the Model M by Unicomp as another option?
If talking about quality alone, unfortunately the Unicomp model M's aren't in the same league. I think Thomas wanted to touch more on the model F than the model M.
I think you desk resonates much, especialy with SPACE ;)
But as i rember from 30 years ago, sounds match perfectly.
Sometimes prefect imitation comes by accident, i write now on some logi K270 which livley reminds me C64 keyboard feel 😅
With selenoid will attract people who want to be send for remote work again, only for electric typewriters lovers ;)
If I had the money I'd order a model F battleship on the spot. I grew up using a model M as a kid and I don't have anything larger than a TKL at the moment.
so its built like a brick shithouse, and priced accordingly. I checked it out and saw the $399 price, then you said it was made entirely of metal, and the price made more sense. Very cool project. (Typed on an M23!)
3:40 notably the 122 was relatively easily moddable for standard ANSI :D
I see you have bought "the machine with the biiing" with every pressing of a button.
My EE country take at PC/AT clone also have steel arc to bend PCB to profile and was havy.
I could kick myself, repeated, for letting my old M104 original keyboard go to the electric recycling about 15 years ago. Loved that keyboard.
5:49 Holy heck, this caught me off guard.
This keyboard ruined my keyboard hobby. I literally don't feel the need to have so many mechanical keyboards anymore. This one, a gaming keyboard with linear switches, and a low profile one that I can carry to work, and… that's it? I could sell the rest (except a Model M perhaps).
You are right! Many people say the Model F is their end game board!
aaaaaaaahhhhhhh!!! 🙌🏽
Man I wish he could do one with a trackpoint! 😮
In the manual there's a section of user mods, one of the users did it. Looks too involved me for though
4:57 i've tried these for osu and can confirm they're TERRIBLE
1:30 Kailh Box White is pretty damn synchronized with the click.
Some come pretty close but almost none are perfectly, inherently lined up. Box switches are no exception.
The part about having to reseat springs out of the box would kill me. I've owned several IBM model M/Fs and every one has had at least a few springs that actuate ever so slightly lower or higher than the others. I would spend hours a day pulling springs out and reseating them with a chopstick until the endgrain would go completely smooth, ordering new ones if I bent them, so on and so fourth. Worst part was getting the actuation point just right but then something else would be off, like the key would be slightly less tactile or the ping wouldn't sound quite right. Model Ms would have barrels that just wouldn't click as loud with any spring and model Fs would have the risk of springs not pinging the same as the others. I swear don't have OCD but when it comes to keyboards I tend to lose my mind with consistency.
Also don't get me started with Topre, Topre domes are never consistently weighted no matter what and there will always be a few domes that are less tactile than the rest (yes I know for a fact I have uniform keyboards, the inconsistent weighting is NOT in the pattern of a variable weight one, I even had it happen on an HHKB), which is strange since regular rubber domes tend to be perfectly consistent.
Sticking with my black Unicomp 101 with green LEDs (daily driver), 1981 model F (backup), multiple model Ms and Fs in my collection. For $400 I can acquire pretty much any vintage IBM keyboard, collectible or not, except maybe some of the vintage beamers. No way am I spending my money on one of these "reproductions."
Keep in mind that this particular model (Model F tech with Model M's layout) never existed before, so strictly speaking it's not a reproduction.
There was no model F with the layouts of model M. So, they are a unique product. There's also an option for beam spring instead of F, which is totally unique
It is as lovely of an endgame keyboard as I could imagine, seriously it is perfect. Save for one thing, for that outlay of money having to do maintenance OOB is a bit tough to swallow especially when you might need to plonk down another 50 for a repair kit. I think that is a miss.
That's not maintenance; that's just the normal setup experience of a Model F - having to install keys and adjust some of the springs so that they are properly positioned, since these are not self-contained switches. The spring is just press fit onto the flipper nub without being secured by glue. You do not have to pay for a maintenance kit to set up your keyboard; that is not true.
oooh!
18:41 Holy fuck!
wow someone made an LED Cluster that looks like the Original style, unlike Unicomp who have refused to do it for whatever reason
The new Model F LED overlay is a reproduction of the IBM Model M originals.
@@Brand_New_Model_F_Keyboards I appreciate that greatly. You could probably make a bit of money on the side selling conversion kits for Unicomp Model M's
I bought one of the first Model F keyboards, but I honestly disliked it due to the metallic sound and "feel" (though it was the sound that bothered me most and made me stop using it). Do their newer versions reduce that sound and feeling at all?
My daily driver is the Unicomp New Model M, which is not as nice as a real IBM, but it is close, and I personally vastly prefer it to the Model F I have.
No, this feels and sounds like a Model F. Maybe slightly differently weighted, but pretty close to the original I'd say.
@@Chyrosran22Thank you for the reply. I appreciate the info!
@@Chyrosran22 Yes, I can confirm that. The sound is *very* different, as is the key feel. The Model F feels softer (as in less actuation force is needed). Although it's been decades since I typed on a *new* Model M, so it may not be fair to compare a Model M with literally decades of use under its belt to a new Model F reproduction.
Great review! Though I must say I am a bit sceptical when it comes to the shipping causing these issues you described. From what I've heard about fellow community members shipping buckling springs, and from my own experience shipping them, springs getting dislocated isn't an issue any of us experienced. Also, while Unicomp keyboards can come with keys dislodged, I've never heard of them arriving with the same happening to the springs.
EDIT:
My theory is that the issue stems from either QC issues or the fact the keyboards are shipped without caps. Also, F/XTs tend to go for around $75 to $120 depending on how patient you are.
Considering my F77 repro didn't have a completely assembled keyboard assembly (only the front clips were actually attacked to anything, the back clips weren't and the thing was just loose) and when I asked about that they claimed it was from shipping, something that shipping couldn't possibly have caused, I can guarantee that the claim that shipping causes these issues is to cover up for poor QC and to avoid having to process returns for faulty boards.
Seems like indifferent assembly and minimal inspection and testing. If they're selling it unfinished they should be forthcoming about it _and_ provide spares and tools for the spring adjustments.
This is not correct. I have shipped maybe 100 new Model F keyboards with keycaps installed and they still required spring adjustments. The very first batch had the factory install blank keycaps to some boards as a test. As I have noted many times, there are hundreds of variations of the new production keyboards and if I multiplied that by the dozens of available key sets it would not be feasible to install the keys for such a small production batch. The keyboards are sold completely finished and tested but without the keycaps installed.
@@Brand_New_Model_F_Keyboards The keyboards can't be fully tested if the keycaps aren't installed, come on. Especially when so many of the issues people experience are the result of misaligned springs, which you would certainly need to install keycaps (thus completing the keyswitches) to test and notice. How are the keyboards "tested", exactly?
If it's not practical for you to install everyone's key sets due to the small-scale, boutique nature of the operation, that's fine, but in any case I agree that a repair kit of some kind should be included with the product, not a pricey extra, since these small issues are apparently fairly likely to occur. Are they a QC issue or a shipping issue? From the customer's point of view, why should it matter?
Personally, like other commenters, I'm sceptical of the 'rough handling' explanation. I have both sent and received plenty of IBM buckling spring keyboards internationally - Ms and Fs - and not once has a correctly-aligned spring somehow rotated slightly or come loose during the shipping process. Somehow they survive the punting and pummelling of the malicious, grunting ape-men who staff the cargo holds of international flights nowadays (or so we are to believe). Whether the springs are misaligned before or during shipping, it seems to be a problem that affects Model F Labs keyboards - not IBM, Lexmark, or Unicomp keyboards. So no matter the specific cause of the issue, as far as responsibility for it, the finger points at Model F Labs.
@@zpxlng Not correct. Each key position is fully tested and each spring assembly is inspected - if you check out the recently updated manual you would see how this is done. There is a special feature that is part of the pandrew utility that allows each key position to be tested. Keycaps do not have to be installed. This program is a great way to test key positions that are not working. Of course it is correct that the user has to install the keys and make sure a correctly installed key works as a last step towards getting the keyboard ready to go. A repair kit is not necessary to have a working keyboard. Parts do not break during a normal installation so it is not expected, though getting extras is highly recommended. Also regarding new versus original keyboards, many original IBM boards in general are much lighter because they tend to have plastic cases, and lighter keyboards are less likely to generate so much force when they are dropped so as to cause damage. They have also had decades for the springs to oxidize in place on the flipper nubs so after 40 years they are not as likely to move as a fresh board.
I feel like the only reason Tom used pounds and tootsies was out of respect for the fact that the model F is an american invention. Otherwise he wouldn't have bothered.
You're the coup de ville.
n[U]clear a[P]ocalyp[S]e.
Coincidence? I don't think so.
does it support ps2?
I am wondering the same .
No. It might be possible to convert USB back to PS/2, though.
Sorry, for $399+ I'm not going through all this nonsense. Charging a premium price for what is essentially a product that is guaranteed to have issues, and droning on about warranty is a bad look. Dont get me wrong, I understand what we're trying to accomplish here. The barrier to entry is just too high.
The keyboard is not guaranteed to have issues; that is false. The springs are not glued onto the nubs so they do move around as the keyboard is roughly handled by the shipping companies. Part of setup involves moving springs back into place which is very easy to do. The video in the manual shows how it takes less than a minute. There is a reason that people have been maintaining these keyboards for the past 40 years even though they have to go through an hour setup - they really are the Best Keyboards Ever as many folks say.
Eh, my repro F77 had 2 keycaps which were molded very incorrectly from the factory, and replacements weren’t covered under any warranty. I had to pay for one of the replacement caps as well as shipping…other people I know have had warped cases or damaged paint finishes on their brand new keyboards too. I appreciate that these exist, but receiving a keyboard in good, new condition without major defects is clearly something the seller doesn’t care about.
It’s never a good look to be very picky about warranty issues either. If QC was where it should have been in the first place I doubt that would have been a problem too.
@@zacharyc6549 This post gives a false impression of the product. While cosmetic issues with the cases are not usually covered, if a key is damaged it will be replaced as an exception to that general rule, which I noted in the email to this customer. I said I would send a replacement for this customer. I just checked my email history now. The customer decided to pay for 2 of the 3 keys which was nice but completely unnecessary. Maybe there was a miscommunication - but I said that I would replace a damaged key as an exception (maybe this customer thought they would only get 1 free replacement? Doesn't make sense but my apologies if it was not clear). The keys appear to have been gouged in shipping on the edges of the keys. The cases may be off by a mm or so but I would not exaggerate the case as being "warped" as aluminum and zinc tend to change shape slightly as they cool, especially for such large and heavy parts, which is why they are held in cooling jigs after die casting is completed. QC has been the most important part of this project which is why the project was years late as I rejected various quality issues. It is not a "QC" problem if a few keycaps are damaged in transit and then replaced.
@@Brand_New_Model_F_Keyboards lol, "many folks say" that IBM Model F keyboards "are the Best Keyboards Ever", not YOURS. I understand you've worked very hard on these modern Fs but it's beyond incorrect to conflate the two: it's misleading and arrogant. It is IBM's Model Fs that people have been maintaining for the past 40 years, not yours, and THEY didn't have to go through an hour setup as far as I'm aware. Maybe your keyboards will be loved and maintained for decades to come, but that hasn't happened yet. Just because you're copying IBM, you can't presume to inherit the legacy and good reputation of THEIR keyboards. Watch how you phrase things.
I was considering gifting one of these to a friend but the potential issues during shipping is somewhat concerning
There are no potential issues to worry about during shipping - everyone has to install the keys and adjust some springs as needed to set up the keyboard. You need no special skills or knowledge to set up the board - just follow the video and read the manual and even a beginner will be fine!
At least for Model Ms, I‘ve found this to be a very easy way to replace springs: th-cam.com/video/SnBsDeKs54w/w-d-xo.htmlsi=o9_ebMwbcUP6Dmb7
Considering this is a 400$ purchase that requires you to complete a reading assignment, watch an hour long video, and then manually tune the keyboard to fix their bad QC you aren't exactly getting a quality product are you? You're getting a bunch of unique parts and that's it. If you happen to get shipped a working keyboard that's cool, and if you get shipped a broken one that's not their problem and they can change the contents of the warranty before sending you a copy such that none of your issues are covered under the warranty. Would they do such a thing? Better question is are you willing to spend 400$ to find out?
Cause that's a thing they can do currently, though it's not something they should be doing. They are currently violating FTC rules regarding the warranty by not providing one on the website and only providing one on request. IIRC this also means they're violating similar EU rules here by having the full terms of the ToS/warranty only available on request. Any company that tries to get you to enter a legally binding agreement without providing the full text of that agreement to you is scummy enough that you should avoid them regardless of what service or product they offer.
This is completely false; the project complies with all requirements. There is no rule requiring what you are discussing; that is not correct at all. The project has been around for about 10 years and there have been no changes. You can read the full terms and conditions on the project web site page linked at the bottom of the home page. The keyboards are fully tested and fully assembled except for the keycaps and small add ons like the bumpers/feet. The manual explains why the end user has to install the keys and adjust springs because they may have fallen out of place due to rough shipping.
If those switches just weren't so bloody loud... 🙂
I ABSOLUTELY LOVE the typewriter sound effects this beast of a keyboard produces.
The one thing that doesn't make sense is why the keyboard has Classic Korean but no Classic Chinese as one of the languages to choose from. 🤔🤔🤔
Everyone feel free to reach out to me if you are interested in additional key sets and I can send you a template to fill out.
First!
Love it but exchange rate and shipping are the killer
International shipping is reasonably priced for such a heavy keyboard, with a shipping weight that could be 4 to 5 kg or more!
Someone has a strange idea in the UK at least of how consumer protection works. I don't buy a product and then need to spend $49 to fix it if it's been damaged in transit. The supplier needs to send me one that works,.....
He can claim as much limited warranty as he likes but that's illegal under the UK sales of goods act and it's supplementary legislation.
If he can't comply with UK legislation he shouldn't be selling to the UK, the USA authorities don't tolerate the reverse...
Completely false; no one has to spend $49 to fix a product damaged in transit. The product will be supported and free replacement parts are sent in the event of something broken in shipping. The purpose of the first aid kits and other spare parts is for repairs and maintenance, including fixing things long after the project has shut down, and in case you break something while cleaning something or if something is accidentally dropped in the future.
@@Brand_New_Model_F_Keyboards Then will you be sending MaxLein a replacement case then? He literally told you in this comment section that his case came permanently damaged (dented) and you told him it was normal. Absolute melt. You realise your shady practices are going to blow up in your face now that you're getting noticed outside of DT?
@@wobbled5609 Not correct, the case had minor casting defects in the back due to the die casting process, along with some chipped paint in the back which can be fixed with some paint. The limited warranty and product pages clearly indicate that cosmetic defects are to be expected. My note was that if the keyboard arrived with broken parts like a keycap that got smashed, that they would be replaced. The keyboard operation is not affected by a small chip of lost paint in the back. No one has to order a keyboard; if you don't agree to the terms regarding the limited warranty and cosmetic damage, which are clearly noted on every keyboard page and in the terms and conditions, then you can feel free to consider other alternatives.
@@Brand_New_Model_F_Keyboards No you are wrong.
Chipped paint is a sign of shipping damage and is not acceptable. I wouldn't accept a brand new product with chipped anything. MaxLein described a dent as well, which is yet more proof of shipping damage.
You can throw your 'limited warranty' shite around all day pal, if you ship something that gets damaged in transit, my bank or credit provider are going to be getting that money back from you whether you like it or not. It's your responsibility to make sure your products arrive with no damage, and to replace them when they do get damaged.
'The keyboard operation is not effected by a small chip of lost paint'
Are you fucking hearing yourself? Would you accept a brand new car with a ding and missing paint? No. We as consumers have a right to expect any new product to arrive free of DAMAGE. Ok there might be blemishes - Unicomp had their fair share of this, but a dent and a paint chip is not a blemish, it's damage. Replace it and stop being a dick.
As for buying your products, that's really up to me to decide, I don't think I could support you anymore despite having bought thousands of dollars worth of both vintage M's F's and a couple of your replicas.One things for sure though, if my shit did arrive damaged, you'd either be replacing it free of charge, or you'll be refunding the entire order. Your limited warranty shit doesn't fly in most countries.
You have gone from a passionate hobbyist to an actual scumbag whos ONLY motivation is money.
Sounds like it's ironically pretty fragile given what a tank the case is. Edit: I mean precision mechanism. Like a Swiss watch wrapped in a Sherman tank.
I would not call a keyboard fragile because you have to install the keys and move around the springs after they are moved around in shipping. Model F keyboards are built to last and many have survived in working condition since the 1980s.
@@Brand_New_Model_F_Keyboards Yes, many IBM Model F keyboards have survived in working condition since the 1980s. This commenter, however, was referring to the Model F Labs keyboards featured in the video.
@Brand_New_Model_F_Keyboards I hope my comment didn't feel like an insult. Thank you for bringing these back for us to enjoy. You truly are doing God's work!
I taught myself QMK over night a week ago. Its stupid simple.
Same problem as with Unicomp - insane shipping price. And I assume it's not sold in Europe. Such a shame.
Not correct; there are thousands of international customers for the project. The international shipping price is around $75. The shipping price is higher than other keyboards because this keyboard weighs 5 times as much as other keyboards and more weight means higher cost.
To get this keyboard into Europe one also has to pay VAT which is around 20% (depending on the country). This applies to orders above 150 EUR.
@@Brand_New_Model_F_Keyboards I know. And I don't blame the manufacturer. My guess is buckling spring switches are not very popular in Europe. It's a niche thing here. And I live in Eastern Europe, it's sometimes too expensive for us here.
No thanks, not for 400. I love this, but it's only worth so much. I can't justify 400 on any keyboard, maybe 1-200.
If it is out of your price range, feel free to consider the lower cost Model F keyboards in the shop, available for as low as $175.
Unfortunately the FSSK is not cheaper than the F104...
Why would it be? The main cost is the mold. Molds can cost more than cars! They are very expensive and the quantity is far lower for the FSSK compared to the F104, so the cost cannot be spread among a mass production volume.
@@Brand_New_Model_F_Keyboards Interesting, I would have thought the FSSK would be more popular. Thanks for the response.