@@swampybwoy I mean, only if you didn't actually listen. A lot of commander players just don't think that hard about their decks, so these videos provide the tools for that kind of player to actually get why they might be losing or not having fun, and then improve. It's a lot of gentle prodding that you should probably try to genuinely participate in the games you play, and the means to do so. It gets into why you might make deck building decisions and the context for the heuristics players are often given without any additional explanations. Consider how many players go "I chose the big crab for my big leader guy, so I picked all the little crabs for my deck, and then some cards with crabs in the little picture, and, Hey, why is my deck bad??" When a lot of players have run so far astray from the competitive roots of the game, getting into the reasons you make deck building decisions really is reconnecting with the game design philosophies of the thing they're trying to play.
So much more valuable than deck techs. MTG TH-cam can feel quite stale, Snail's rapid rise is a clear indicator that most people know how to build around a commander: they just need more guidance on the higher level design and decision making.
tbh he's just saying obvious stuff in a neat and organized way. There are just a LOT of bad or inexperienced players, and there are just as many players who overestimate their skill level. In other words, if no one in the room is saying what needs to be said, no matter how simple it is, the one guy who says it will sound revolutionary. Also - You just dont hear this content too often because algorithm trends disproportionately favor constant new content. Thats why most channels, no matter how unique they start out as, end up inevtiably reducing their content to just spoiler talk, mtg news talk, and general rants about the state of the game. This channel is one of the few that doesnt do that (or just gameplay footage, the other style of lukewarm mtg content) My hope is that SS keeps up with this kind of content because no one else is really doing videos like this.
I love redirect effects. Hosed a guy constantly that refused to play against counterspells, but ran tons of edicts. I hope he learned that people countering his removal is a better option.
I love it in my ob nixilis deck, it has become even a bit infamous so much so that now whenever I have 1 red mana and ob out everyone is scared I might bolt bend an important spell lmao
@@binch6291 the new red flare redirect from modern horizons 3 is really cool too and is under $2 right now sac a non token red creature and cast it for free. Say someone goes to swords your commander respond with saccing your commander since it's being removed anyway and say "cool I'm swording your commander too" 😆
Originally my script for this video included another couple hundred words of convoluted vegetable analogies but I ended up cutting them out. I'm glad some people see the vision!
When I clicked onto this video, looking for ways to feel better about more removal in my Kestia Enchantress deck, I was kinda shocked to find myself already making these decisions. I tend to run mostly enchantment-based removal, so my removal spells also cantrip and sometimes even come attached with a free ancestral recall. That was the whole idea with the deck to begin with though (How do I make Auras happen and not feel sad about getting 2 or 3 or 4-for-1'd?), but I've never thought about this for other types of decks. It seemed like a natural conclusion to make for the removal in Enchantress to me, but not elsewhere. I wonder if that just means Enchantress is inherently easy to spice up and season, or if I've always had this kind of idea of how removal works? It's definitely odd.
Oh yes! It makes decks feel so much more unique if you are not running the same staples in every one of them. I have a Imoti + Keruga Companion deck in which almost every big spell has some sort of bounce, fight or reclamation sage type effect. It feels like im just ramping and timmy casting big creatures but i also control the board while doing so. And my newest First doctor + Susan Foreman deck is focused around sagas which got so much support that i don't need to run a single dedicated removal spell in there.
When I help friends with their decks around this topic, I make sure to replace "control" and "removal" with "interaction" cards and it works so well! It's exactly what we need more of for more interesting dynamic games.
I’ve never made a EDH deck before about a month ago and each video I watch gives me so many new ideas. Putting removal in a deck makes sense when it’s more than just removal.
I also really like removal that does other things along with removing, Binding the Old Gods (The 2BG Saga from Kaldhiem) is a really great removal spell because the second chapter snags you a land.
my biggest thing is always trying to figure out which removal is the best (i don’t have deadly rollick money either), as well as how situational is too situational when it comes to removal. i also try to consider how i can be creative with removal without defaulting to the most played, best-in-slot cards all the time (which sometimes can’t be helped). i’m still playing with preconstructed decks, but i’m trying to build my own completely original deck (once i come up with a good enough idea), so videos like this are helpful for getting the pieces together.
It's been best for me to think about what my deck can and can't deal with, I play a heavy ramp deck with card draw that wants to explode one turn and win or kill someone, I run less removal and more board protection because of that. I run removal like ezuri's predation cause I get value from it that I can turn into a win even with a bad board state.
There are always cheap options. Often, the most expensive options (like Deadly Rollick) are only marginally better than the next best thing. In the case of Deadly Rollick, Dismember is often just as good. It can 1 mana as needed, and can kill an indestructible creature up to a X/5. Or Baleful Mastery, you can pay 4, or you can pay 1B to exile a creature or planeswalker if you're willing to let an opponent draw a card. Also, don't be so put off by even something as simple as Doom Blade. There' a reason it's iconic: it's good. Go For The Throat, Infernal Grasp, Power Word Kill are all equally good options with some small restrictions.
I like removal that also advances your gameplan. For example, a card like Lethal Scheme can removed an opposing creature while looting up to 4(!) cards; while Astarion's Thirst is removal that also buffs your commander. A commander like Herigast, Erupting Nullkite can utilize threaten effects to steal opponent's creatures and sacrifice them to the deck's emerge costs.
Dude, your videos are top tier. Your deckbuilding advice has helped me blend in with the random pile of card/adjusted preconstructed/admittedly tryhard decks of my pod. 😂 I used to always be surprised with my decks when they worked, and whine when I fell behind. (I can be a sore loser. 😅) But knowing how to build a consistent deck has allowed me to be a lot more confident with how I interact at the table. All thanks to you!
there are some really interesting and strange removal options. Sometimes it's a creature, and most times it's a sorcery. Players don't normally play with aura's, but when someone does there's a board wipe that only hits creatures that are not enchanted with an aura.
Having "removal engines" is a MAJOR key for mid-power. Going 1-for-1 with stuff like swords is useful when you need to answer a threat immediately, but often midpower games feature not one, but a wide range of large bastards that might need answering. In my Yorion build Aerial Extortionist does triple duty as a reasonable flier, repeatable removal, and card advantage engine. The new Ethersworn Adjudicator looked like an unexciting mythic at first, but in a deck with Training Ground effects has been a chunky flier that can snipe multiple targets per turn. At higher power levels counterspells and the 'staple' removal spells are a given, but that hidden factor of decks generally being leaner means those removal packages can often get much worse at dealing with the multitude of big, stupid threats flying around a lower power levels. If you're the only person packing that removal suite you're going to exhaust your hand before the 3 others taking turns tapping out to play giant idiots on curve run out of giant idiots.
Do you ever find players get salty when your removal engine basically stops them from playing the game entirely though? I'm kinda on the fence with these since grave pact type effects are where my mind goes when I hear removal engine and I know that those effects aren't well liked.
@@matta6639 I personally don't run repeatable edict effects in casual decks because I'm not a fan of the experience they create at the table and because they draw an inordinate amount of hate. I played with a guy who ran the Rishadan sac guy cycle in a flicker deck, and I told him I recommended cutting them because in low amounts they are not very good, as holding up 1 or 2 mana isn't that hard and you can eventually just remove them, but they will piss everyone off. However, in high amounts they basically start functioning like repeatable stone rains, which will ABSOLUTELY draw hate and can create uninteresting nongames if you can't win quickly enough after devastating people's mana bases. He did not cut them and got beat the fuck up one game after making 1 guy sac 1 land. If you want to live like that, go with God, but think about it this way. Card A will give you a 50/50 to win the game if you untap with it and Card B will just improve your position. Card A is better, but your opponents will let you resolve and keep Card B.
I love thematic removal, like my frog tribal has multiple cards that turn people's creatures into 1/1 frogs with no abilities, and my enchantress deck runs grasp of fate and might be one of my favorite enchantments, my voja deck run werefox bodyguard in my voja deck that synergies really well
8:40 is probably **the most** important point. Before slotting in removal you need to know what the gameplan of the deck is and what major obstacles could come up. There's one aspect that is usually never mentioned or even considered for any kind of beat-down deck (go-wide, voltron, etc.) and that is stax. Stax will slow down your table, resulting in slower board development on your opponents side which also means there are less blockers, or other problematic pieces that require your removal. By running the right pieces of stax, you can remove a couple pieces of removal. And this is especially beneficial when your stax pieces are also creatures that can attack. Going through 120 life points even with synergistic effects takes time and requires continuous board development from your side. For example, in a Boros beatdown deck you can run all sorts of "rule of law" effects because your (non cEDH) ramp is very limited and you probably will only be able to play 1 spell at a time anyways. If you happen to get a treasure engine it's still fine because this allows you to hold up interaction on top of playing a creature a turn so it's really not a downside for you but it might cripple a lot of other decks and that gives you time to lower everyone's life points.
Devastate is a fun card but as a warning for those who don"t know, you need ALL possible targets to be available in order to cast it. So if no one happens to have an enchantment or the only enchantment is yours it can be a bit awkward. Casualtys of war does not have this problem
My first edh deck was a slower deck with a lot of cheap removal spells. After only a few games I pretty much never got attacked because people knew their stuff was at risk of dying it it went after me. The threat of removal alone allowed me to comfortably get into the late game where my deck shined.
Great advice. I particularly like the idea of having a card serve multiple roles. The card I use that way is Settle the Wreckage which some unfortunate amount of the time I send at opponents and survive feeling dirty inside, but a more wholesome amount of the time I use it as the incredible ramp spell that it desperately wants to be. After damage at the end of combat step of course.
Great video! Totally agree I tend to be more on the "Removal can't keep up with overpowered cards/decks", but the line of thought this video explains is just high quality
You're channel is a godsend. I just recently came back to MTG and EDH. I'm reviewing my decks and came across this channel. I'm horrified at my decklists! Which just means more tinkering time and tuning on my decks which is a win.
Yes please! All my Spellslinger decks suffer from the fact they take too long to get the commander out and rolling, and I would love some advice on how to pace games so I can still have explosive turns, 10 turns into the game
@@Punkmationyou should try ghyrson starn, he’s 1, a blue, and a red, and when you ping any target for 1 he does 2 more to it. It plays VERY low to the ground with an average cmc of 2 or less and can get started very quickly as you just need a creature that pings opponents when you cast instants and sorcs and you can run a lot of cantrips to trigger them over and over. Running more cantrips also inherently makes the consistency very high and digs through the deck very easily. My casual starn deck can typically win turn 6-7 assuming I’m not hard targeted. Also just running cheap ping spells can wipe boards usually with just 2 cards.
@@Retr0Sk1ll thank you! But I already play him :D that was my first deck, and indeed does not suffer from a late start. But that’s a ping deck, and I’m looking to play a storm or X spells deck
Okay, after watching the video, I want to say that the insightful expression of including removal was both eloquent and useful; the video was concise, but hearty; well done.
IMO, the most compelling reasons to run removal are... - It gives you more turns to play out your own cool synergies by slowing down opponents who would end the game too soon. - It keeps opponents honest in their deckbuilding, ensuring they keep protection cards and challenges them to form contingency plans. - It ensures that the player who got luckiest with land drops doesn't automatically win: instead, player skill (when to use removal, who to use it on) and the extra layer of randomization (drawing removal or not) helps to curve the playing field towards a more even matchup.
It would be cool if there was a list somewhere that had removal spells that are beneficial to different deck types. The section about those kinds of spells really got me searching for something like that.
Scryfall advanced search is probably your best bet to find removal with specific costs, type, or text. For example, you could find some removal engines by searching for cards with oracle text containing "whenever", "destroy", and "target".
This is why I love Kalamax. Doubling the value of most of your cards (and then just making them all a healthy combination of ramp, draw, and removal) as a baseline does amazing things. It makes it even better when you can hold all of it up and consistently play on opponents' turns, making it much easier to react to threats and provided there's no threat that you need to deal with, go back to ramping and drawing.
Kalamax is the only Dinosaur I i kept myself away from, since it always feels like he makes the game so easy lol. But yeah, he is a blast as long as the table is appropriately aware of its power level and can match it.
Another removal engine for any deck running a self-mill package is life form the loam and channel lands. I'm sure its nothing new to some players, but for those who don't know: after you self mill life from the loam and a channel land or two you can dredge it back to your hand (allowing you to mill more), and cast it returning the channel lands (and maybe a fetch if you don't have 3 in the grave yet) you have to your hand. From there simply use the channel lands and regrab the life from the loam with dredge again. Nearly all of them are rather impactful in what they can do (outside of the red one). Green can act as removal at the cost of giving the opp a land when you do. White can serve as a combat trick to make it hard to justify blocking or attacking you without a 1/1 being able to trade an opponents 5/5. Blue serves as a repeatable efficiently costed bounce spell that can be used on tokens, high costed cards, or even as a way to reset a buffed creature with lots of +1/+1 counters. And the black one serves as a creature regrowth and even more mill! Assuming you have the extra draw to compensate for the loss of draw from life from the loam's dredge, repeating these serves as a good way to spend extra mana each turn; almost like a mana sink It being an engine that will turn itself online once you just mill the right cards is also really big bonus, meaning it has little to no setup outside of milling yourself, which the deck was probably doing anyways. And it only costs a single nonland slot in the deck (and you may probably already be running Life from the Loam for the dredge anyways), and a few utility land slots.
this is super good advice when I was first picking up the game my first deck I made to remedy my own unwillingness to run removal was a mono black murder themed deck with a bunch of monsters that gave benefits when an opponent's creature died
It always baffles me, how more kitchen table EDH players often times will complain about an infinite variety of decks, yet refuse to simply play interaction and when someone plays interaction for their stuff, they'll complain about that as well. They'll complain about someone playing a solitaire type deck instead of playing interaction, yet will complain when someone interacts with their solitaire strategy. I hope this video reaches a lot of people. Maybe you should make a video about how to play around interaction next (baiting counterspells, not over-extending to the board against boardwipes, playing creature- or artifact-based ramp against land destruction etc. and of course understanding, that every strategy will always have a weakness, even their own strategy).
idk what it is exactly but I really appreciate your voice and the way you ennnunciate. I find it very easy to be completely invested in your videos. Great analysis as always!
In my Jenny Flint & Madame Vastra investigators deck, the commanders are half the creature removal i need on their own, but my creature-specific removal consists mostly of "target creature you control deals damage" and Fight cards, with one of them (Ulvenwald Tracker) being a permanent that can repeatedly instigate Fights, and this plays beautifully into the engine of the commanders, but because this type of removal is so specific, and because protection and combat tricks combined with "Madame Vastra must be blocked if able." is functionally also creature removal, i only run 4 of these cards (with Decisive Denial doubling as a counterspell) out of 19 Removal cards in the deck. (Only 6 counterspells because they're good, but i want my opponents to play more removal and feel like it matters.)
This is exactly how you have to think of this. I run an Intet the Dreamer big Dragons deck and each dragon is picked either for combat tricks or for removal. Were talking damage dealt to non-flying creatures, direct damage to single targets, recursion, or removal targeting artifacts. I was happy to hear Hull Breach in this video.
Hey! I never comment, but I Loved the Radha deck so much that I played it a lot and put my own spin on it. I threw in 2 wastes and turned it into a 7 mana colorless matters deck. I still kept the koglas and the cascaders! It's quickly becoming my favorite deck.
Nice! That sounds like a fun spin on the deck. Breaker of Creation certainly makes that tempting, I've found myself wanting lifegain and hoo boy is that card a lot of lifegain when I have 15+ lands in play
Hex: "Finally, my time to shine!" Seriously though, two recent cards I love are Requisition Raid(spree, destroy artifact, enchantment, and/or put +1/+1 on your creatures) in a counters deck and Collective Resistance to do similar(single target heroic intervention instead of counters) in my mono green Goreclaw deck. They hit the sweet spots of being cheap(4 mana for all modes), allow you to hit more than one target, and pull double duty filling a particular niche or synergy within the deck.
Thanks to content like yours I've put more interaction into my decks and advicing other players to play more aswell. Games became more fun since then and I'm loving it. Recently I played in a pod with someone I play regulary in my LGS and at the start of the game he said to the other two, wich I played against like once or twice, that I'm playing a lot of interaction they have to watch out for. So yeah, because of people like you I'm kinda the "interaction-guy" in my playgroup now :)
As a longtime limited player, I’ve always found the distaste for interaction in edh bizarre. That said, your approaches to fitting more than spot removal into decks was really fun to hear about!
This is why I saw Invoke Despair coming as the powerhouse it was until its banning in Standard. It's multi-removal with wide card-type coverage stapled to your card-advantage for either your midrange or control deck. It was just a matter of there being a heavily-black deck worth playing, and it was obviously going to be multiple layers of that triple-chocolate cake on its own. I've been aware of this concept all the way back since the beginning of my time in the format because Prophetic Bolt and Eternal Witness was a standout removal & draw engine anongst the jank of the Riku of Two Reflections precon. It was one of the best things you could do with the deck. Also as far as the tempo involved, obviously that combination with the extra copying was very mana-hungry, but E-Wit alone earlier in the game recurred your ramp, while Prophetic Bolt alone in the midgame dealt with something and dug towards more lands and ramp, and towards the E-Wit. Adding a Crystal Shard was the first thing I did, which allowed you to loop this combo in the ultra-lategame, dumping all of your mana every turn to kill things, regrow a card, draw cards, and make a blocker. (Yes, extremely mana-hungry. The power-level and total card-pool of the format was so much lower back then unless you were playing Zur Doomsday/Voltron or Arcum Dagson or Sharuum infinite combo.)
Druid of purification is one of the most underrated multi-removal options. It consistently eliminates the 3-4 scariest artifacts and enchantments at the table. (That you don’t own) all for 3 and a green.
I love the part about the right removal for the right deck. I really started noticing this when I built Clavileno. As a BW aggro-aristocrats deck that generally wins through combat and needs to attack to get value, I found that the best removal was the 1- to 2-mana spot removal that BW offers plenty of. The deck needs velocity, but has very little ramp, so cheap, universal removal helps you stay ahead of your opponents' tempo, which in turn presents player removal and a draw/token engine with Clavileno. Once I started viewing removal as a way of gaining a tempo advantage so that the deck could execute its primary gameplan, it became much more consistent (and fun) than it was when it ran more splashy, high CMC emergency buttons. It does still have a few hard resets, notably Damn, but that's partly because board wipes drawing you 3+ cards and making a flying demon token army is pretty good. Plus as an aristocrats-hybrid deck, you can also throw in powerful removal engines like Attrition and Grave Pact too if that's your thing.
If your playgroup is not cool with stax, I think you need to be careful about the inclusion of 'Removal Engines'. If you're running something like Retribution of the Ancients in a +1/+1 counter deck, where it can become trivially easy to activate it more than once per turn, it can feel pretty close to "opponents can't cast creature spells". Aura Shards may as well say "opponents' enchantments and artifacts have Vanishing 1". Royal Assassin is less staxy but still has the potential to be oppressive if you can untap him. Trygon Predator is probably the safest as he can just be blocked or removed, and he's capped at 1 trigger per turn without extra combats. A player's removal engine tolerance will likely vary depending on what deck they're playing and general temperament, but my feeling is that even just being able to trigger/activate them 2-3 times per turn cycle is enough to quickly approach stax status.
i love the white 3 mana destroy up to one target artifact or enchantment each opponent controls with cycling to destroy all. i also love stifle effects, i think they’re so massively underrated in almost all formats to some extent but definitely underrated in commander
I run a Maelstrom Wanderer deck and while it's mostly a big mana beatdown, it also runs (nearly) every modal counterspell I can grab. It just seems to fit into the deck to occasionally cascade into a Cryptic Command and have it be an expensive copy of Drag Under.
For me, multi-use cards can fix this issue for the most part. For example, instead of using beast within, use archdruid's charm. It can remove almost anything like beast within, but it can also tutor up creatures and lands. Shadowspear is another example since it can bolster your creatures while removing indestructable and hexproof. There's tons of cards like that, and they dramatically reduce the feels bad of adding interaction. They do tend to run for multiple times the cost of pure removal, however. Imo, proxy all day baby.
I love removal that plays into your Commander's design. My Rielle has counter spells that either discard for cost or have a better effect with Rielle on board. She also has burn spells that discard for cost to have stronger damage or damage based on hand size. It really lets me clear the board while cycling through my deck. Then there's Turbulent Dreams, effectively a discount Cyclonic Rift.
I love this channel. So happy I stumbled upon it this year. Please keep making videos like this, even though I sometimes vehemently disagree with what you say, your ideas are always really interesting and you present them in a very structured and informative way, and I can always take something away from them into my own EDH experience :D
I look at counter/Removal like this Brake the game down to its basics In most games you're goal is to remove a card your enemy controls with one of yours, preferable while you keep yours But in a game as dynamic as MTG that's not always going to be the case. This is mostly with creature spells So the way i look at it, when i cast a counter/kill spell i know deep down if it dosent have an activated ability that will save it it will always be a 1 for 1 trade If u have draw power your hand should always look better then your enemy
So I have a Vraska the Silencer deck on the way, and that's the first deck in a long time where I felt I needed just a heinous amount of removal in various forms (for those in the cheap seats, ANY time a non-token creature dies, I can spend 1 and steal it as a treasure). Not running a lot of board wipes (only running 1 in Culling Ritual) because my game plan is to pick and choose my kills for value rather than "Hey, Greg over there has a spooky board, so probably should kill everything." Plus, since whatever I kill can just be a treasure with upside (etb, mana dorks, static effects), they're actually somewhat resistant to common board wipes. Additionally, there's a Deathtouch subtheme (as well as the design restriction of "I have to use every Vraska Planeswalker and every card that mentions Vraska in the name or rules text") meaning I have 11 "traditional" single target removals (able to snipe key targets) as well as the option to go flexible with either my Planeswalkers or my Creatures doubling as Removal
I think a perspective I have on this is that the more staples of a certain color/color combination you run, the more your deck becomes homogenous with decks that share the same color or color combinations. Especially when Commander feels like a format where you want to express your ideas, running too many staples or the "best cards at X" stops you from expressing your own thoughts and deckbuilding. (The deck will gravitate towards becoming a CEDH deck that does everything hyper efficiently, which, CEDH can be great, but this isn't exactly the goal here.) So personally I do the method where I blend my removals and interactions within my own synergy, at least try to, not always guaranteed that the keyword or theme has enough of what you need. This allows me to look to spend less space dedicated to "just good cards for x" which you can reasonably see in any deck of said color, but still get in the things I need. Either Ramp, Removal, Protection, card draw, all the necessary things, analyzing what your theme is already good at is a great way to pack more flavor while not losing out too much on overall coverage. Doing the analysis for each important asset your deck needs to cover helps out greatly in terms of finding out what your deck can do in excess and what it really lacks, present different scenarios in deck testing will often lead you to realize when your deck may be lacking in some aspect "How much do I need to worry about drawing more cards? How much gas do I reasonably need? How much would I need to reasonably reach my wincon?" Finding what your synergy and theme lacks, and fill those empty spots with a potential mix of staples, modal cards etc. to deal with that weakness, you can't always cover all the weakness, arguably, sometimes it's fun to leave weaknesses in your deck for your opponents to exploit and for you to conquer in game, but you will have a more interactive time without seeing the same old friends in every deck.
As much as I enjoy these videos, I feel like coming from a standpoint of efficiency > fun is a surefire way to have people not really enjoy commander. You can play against other efficient decks day after day and win/lose in the same ways; or you can play against fun decks and actually feel like your personality and interests are on display, win or lose. As someone that has been heavily into card games for over 15 years I’ve learned that winning and chasing the fleeting joy that comes with it is nice; but enjoying yourself and spending your time doing something you like first and foremost is better.
@@josiahclarke3535 Actually, the video is not advocating for efficiency > fun, it's saying that by being more conscious about running more interactions, which does make your deck more efficient, you end up creating a more dynamic, and potentially more fun environment. Lack of interaction is usually a recipe for decks that are solitaire in nature, essentially putting everyone on a solitaire race. I think it's a per pod issue, Snail simply provides some good ways to think about how to bring in more for your deck while sacrificing less of your own expression.
As a player who is consistently a high priority target at the table, I advocate that higher removal options in decks is how to help suppress threatening players and is how I often win my games. Being able to address a problematic card is vital to winning games. You're delusional if you think that you can always pull off your strategy faster than your opponents and that they won't stop you from doing so. Your opponents aren't at the table to watch you win, they're at the table to play and win too.
I have a The Scorpion God deck, that was so much fun and had a removal engine in it. I would run Crumbling Ashes, so on my upkeep, I would respond to the Crumbling Ashes trigger on the stack by activating The Scorpion God, and put a -1/-1 counter on something. Then I would allow the stack to resolve, crumbling ashes could then kill the creature with the -1/-1 counter on its then I would get to draw a card from The Scorpion God’s ability. It was a really good combo. I have a LOT of removal in that deck.
I have become "the removal player" in my pod. My main deck is an Akiri equipment deck with over 14 ways of removal. All built around sunforger. Feels great to control a board in boros
An interesting issue that has popped up often for me, and the main reason why I prefer a wide and blended removal suite over a dense one, is that more often than not strong removal engines and multi target removal draws aggro from the table. If your playgroup is particularly spiteful or quick to realize the power a good removal engine holds, you can quickly become the archenemy of the table, or worse, draw attention away of the target of your interaction, who probably needed to be stopped. This kind of comes with the whole psychology of playing a respectable amount of interaction in commander, which I think comes from the question of in what situation do you want to play that removal. A strong engine can be useful when you are moving ahead, to suppress the board into maintaining a winning position, while multi target removal can be used to break parity and ensure you put yourself in that position. That is why I am more of a supporter of making sure the interaction package is mostly composed of instant speed lean answers or synergistic pieces that blend in the deck, as they should succeed in pushing your opponents' back without putting a target on your back.
I have a funny story to tell regarding my philosophy when it comes to removal. For the most part, the removal cards I play tend to be very similar. Swords go into every white deck, beast within go into every green deck, yada yada. Then, WotC decided to release Obeka and I got unreasonably excited. Even as people everywhere began complaining that every single Obeka deck is the same, I would not let go. Because I did not care about the upkeep cards. What I left me excited was that instead of my regular removal cards, I was able to build a whole new removal package with cards like Nameless Inversion, Warped Physique and Reverse the Polarity. It's that wonderful bit of extra spice when a Removal Spell is not only a Removal Spell, but also an extra three upkeeps when it counts.
The question of how to use removal and what it is for has plagued me for literal years. That last section was immensely helpful. The more specialized my deck is, the more specialized its answers can be. The faster my deck goes, the more I lean towards the efficient staples. As I continue to slow down my equipment deck, for example, I suould look into ways to make its removable more flexible and more effective over multiple turns, since I now plan on winning through combat over an unknown amount of turns.
I think another key way that helps one run more is running slightly less worse removal that is thematic. My favorite deck is my Rakdos, Hell deck ie demons and some friends. Some of the worse yet still solid removal I run: Slaughter Pact, Ob Nixilis’ Cruelty, Bedevil, Terminate, Reiver Demon, Reaper from the Abyss, Dread Cacodemon, Demon of Dark Schemes, etc. It helps when demons love to kill stuff. I think all too often folks obsess on ‘the best’ when shaving a few percentage points off quality for variety helps keep decks feeling fresh and unique. Your building blocks of a deck feel less like filler when they smoothly integrate into their exact setup. And in general I think EDH is better served with more pet cards and silly choices over further optimization.
This is something i’ve found really works in practice, for example probably my favorite deck is ramos (who gets counters and makes mana based on number of colours in a spell) and I run a ridiculous number of removal spells, about 20 (granted lots are things like charms), but they are all bad 2-3 pip removal spells. Despite this, it never feels bad to get removal because it’s helping me in other ways. I can remove whatever I want and it still does stuff.
shenanigans is an amazing recurring removal spell for artifact hate in red decks. Its just a shatter with dredge 1, I use it in my mono red decks as one of the removal options.
This video is making me heavily consider taking (yet) another look at my Aesi deck. It's still doing fine ofc, Aesi landfall does in fact go brrr. But I've bent it in a control direction to help temper the rampant "What's an interaction" style that my playgroup has, and find myself running out of answers pretty quickly when I have to try to police multiple people. I wasn't even aware of that Simic flier, but it's definitely going onto my buy list immediately! To be clear, the other veteran player at the table is glad I have this deck, even as literally every counterspell and about half the removal went his way. I'm mostly trying to show the newer players by example why interactions are a good thing, actually.
I've never had a problem with running enough removal, though the kind of removal varies deck to deck. But I've always seen deck building as a matter of ratios, so making sure that whether my interaction is single target, boardwipes, or the engines you talked about, its always been about hitting a target. I will say, going in with an idea of how many of each "type" of card already makes it easier fitting everything, grabbing extra of everything and slimming everything down. Though my mixture of adhd and spreadsheeting is perhaps not for everyone, lol, especially considering Ive never really used scryfall or edhrec
one of my favorite cards in my +1/+1 deck is Hopeful initiate that can remove 2 counters from your creature(s) to target remove artifact or enchantment. It's an engine but more importantly it fits with the decks goal of generatomg counters and using them to win.
The general gist is that high end cards that can directly impact the board have more value than just random things that do things, and then you build a deck that abuses or reuses these things. For example reclamation sage is worse than naturalize, until you start reanimating, flicker, etc it over and over. The main issue I have with the “play more removal” crowd is that they use it in response to hyper efficient or broken threats as if that’s the way to just keep those threats off the table. For example, if Voja is pissing you off, his ward 3 means it’s not so simple to play a Ravenous Chupacabra to kill it because you essentially have to pay 7 mana for the chupacabra to actually kill Voja, which is simply not happening, especially if it’s turn 2 or 3. So they’re basically telling you to play 10 copies of swords to plowshares or similar effect cards (very low CMC, almost always only 1-for-1, etc.) so you can just remove those threats quickly and mana efficiently multiple times before they become uncastable, which I find to be a ridiculous argument.
The best argument for running more removal is; try it and watch how easy everyone else's plans fumble. In my Gonti deck I run about 8 pieces of spot removal, mostly repeatable like Royal Assassin or Fleshbag Marauder + graveyard recursion, and a similar amount of board wipes. The rest of the deck is just Gonti-enablers, ramp, and carddraw. I win most games I play with that deck.
Generally speaking, a deck needs 2 types of removal spells: First are the efficient, single target removal spells for what I call "surgical strikes". These will usually remain in your hand until you spot a crucial piece on the table that needs to go ASAP. Then we have the nuclear strikes, spells that send the entire table back to square 1. These are better when you have fallen behind on board and have little to nothing to use. I prefer to include cards that hit every nonland permanent with those. To be honest, removal engines aren't my cup of tea because they tend to create miserable board states. Cards like Dictate of Erebos and Grave Pact are extremely powerful but they end up annihilating the table and make everyone hate you. There is no strictly right or wrong way to play your removal spells but, if you try to hold back and take out only what's bound to take over the game within the next couple of turns, you will not only find that you are wasting less cards, you will also see that the table will be much more lenient with your plays.
Oh, you are my spirit animal. I try to tell all my friends to do this and they always wonder why I never have any issues. It’s because they need more removal and in a flavorful way.
to elaborate on the food analogy, choosing your removal should be less like boiled brocoli, and more like a well crafted salad- a genuinely enjoyable and flavorful experience. Hell, I have a mon-black reanimator deck, and I try and keep as much of my removal stapled on a body if I can- helps the deck kill stuff when it does what it wants to do.
One of my favorite multipurpose removal spells is Binding the Old Gods. It removes any nonland permanent, provides non-basic Forest ramp, and aides in overruns (not by much, but full board DT is nothing to scoff at if you have ways to get trample on everything). On top of that, it’s easily reusable in many of the decks that would run it, like Muldrotha or Go-Shintai of Life’s Origin
That's a good one. I run it in my Glissa deck and the fact that she also turns the card into an alternating removal/ramp engine is just icing on the cake.
@@salubrioussnail How could I have forgotten Glissa, given who I was talking to. Another topic that you somewhat brushed against in the video is asymmetrical board wipes, where the problem of setting yourself back is mitigated by matching the wipe to your deck’s play style. There are all purpose ones, like In Garruk’s Wake and Ruinous Ultimatum, but those are mana intensive and, in the latter’s case, color intensive. I’m a big fan of more niche ones, like Organic Extinction. There are also a good number that only hit higher power creatures, like Slaughter the Strong and Sculpted Sunburst, both of which put in spectacular work in my budget Council of Four deck, in which Sunburst usually reads as “exile all creatures except for Council of Four”. Yes, I lose the rest of my board, but so long as the Council’s value engine is untouched, I can invariably rebuild faster than the rest of the table
If anything, I've got the opposite problem. I "learned" to play EDH via some of the old principles of "X removals, Y draw, Z ramp..." patterns, meaning I'm always going into a deck knowing I'm gonna' have a ton of removal. If anything, I don't think _ten_ removal is enough. 90% of games end in combos. If you want to stand a chance, you need to be able to interact with those combos. The problem is that, of a little over the 60 cards I have budgeted for spells (excluding the Commander), it often means I don't have a ton of actual deck to play with. Usually only about 20 tops after I "pay my taxes" (analogous to your terminology of "vegetables"). And what's more, because I assume everybody else builds decks the way I do, I assume there's a ton of removal out there ready to snipe me the moment I get off the ground. Anticipating this, I staple in protection pieces like Lightning Greaves, Tef Pro, Deflecting Swat and Heroic Intervention as carelessly as I would run a Sol Ring. It's just what you do. I like to joke that, even when I'm _not_ playing Esper, I'm _still_ playing Esper because I always need a response to everything. Instead, more recently, I've been making decks that curb the amount of removal I run. Instead of building decks to _solve_ problems, I build decks to _be_ problems, notably Raffine reanimator and Jinnie Fay token upgrader. The aim of those is to generate so much value that you can play through the disruption and bounce back reliably. In fact, my latest deck is a Livaan / Raised by Giants deck (it's come to my attention that the original plan of Miirym is far too obvious) that aims to land fatal commander damage like an RKO via purposefully expensive spellslinger pieces and power-doubling combat tricks. I run under ten targeted removal, which is a big deal for me, instead opting for more engine pieces in a deck that is particularly hungry for in-engine shenanigans. My late game curve is basically a straight line.
Gruul Ragebeast and Kogla are great! Beatdown needs to keep the board relatively uncluttered by heaps of value creatures, so having a card that both beats and deals with stuff on board is perfect. I run both in my Maelstrom Wanderer deck.
I like to think of removal as answers, you want answer slots. For example if i'm playing Sigarda Host of Herons as my commander, I need to assume that counter spells would be the disruption therefore I need a certain amount of answers to ensure that safe cast, so things like Cavern of Souls, destiny spinner etc now become a part of the deck. Since targeted removal is pointless against hexproof next I need to worry about boardwipes, so flickerform indestructable engines etc become paramount. As far as the removal multi removal is the way to go, also I'd say you want aggressive answers for things your deck doesn't run a ton of. If you are an enchantment based deck and you can slide in some destroy all artifacts go for it, people react less aggressively to all effects, singling out stuff with removal makes players feel hated on. Cards like windgrace's judgement will draw less ire in many cases than a swords to plowshares
The answer is play more flexible removal that can also advance your boardstate if necessary. My favorite examples are Eldrazi Confluence and Three Steps Ahead. It’s not realistic for every deck to just run more removal if your deck is weaker and needs those deck slots to win.
My Zaxara deck has lots of good enchantment/artifact removal in Steelbane Hydra, Tyranid Abberant and Rampaging Yao Guai all the while furthering my game plan
A great example of multi-card removal that I discovered recently is Make an Example, from the New Capenna Commander decks. How it works is a bit confusing, but essentially, it kills either the best creature on each opponent's board, or every creature except the best one, all while getting around most forms of protection.
@@CameronSMooreThe issue is there’s still real opportunity cost to casting removal as it requires mana to hold up at instant speed or for the case of board wipes will tend to many instances of you wiping and getting to rebuild last. In these scenarios, the players that efficiently ramped and managed to get cards in hand through synergistic board building will have an upper hand again.
@@CameronSMoore for awhile absolutely, but eventually in most games 3 people will be able to assemble enough resources that you can't stop all of them and since you've been doing less in order to stop other people it usually means you haven't amassed as many resources. There is just a limit to how much policing one person can do.
@@CameronSMoorenot if you run out of resources going 1-1 with problematic single permanents and then getting outvalued by the other two players at the table. and if you can keep up with resources that easily, you're probably winning the game anyways. the idea the original commentor is getting at, i think, is that an entire table full of decks with robust removal suites helps to curb situations where one player gets ahead, since the other three players can trade 1-1 and run the problematic player out of resources. but if just one person is running removal, or even if the other players at the table see that you're playing removal so they decide to hold onto theirs, you just wind up running yourself out of resources. i think the way to cut the gordian knot with this is that you need removal *and* ways of applying pressure. people tend to play more defensively when their life total gets closer to 0 than 40.
But not 100%... because I only have so many removal options... if I am the only one playing the police of the table, when I actually NEED the removal options, they're not there for me. If people don't have removal, but know you do, they'll send all their threats at you and say "deal with it or be KOed." In order to realistically deal with every threat at the table, I have to assume each player has at least 5-12 threats... meaning I need between 15 (at bare minimum) and 36 (at max) removal pieces to deal with them. Because the multi removal is good... if each player has an equivalent "threat" on board... usually my Vraska's fall hits one player's big creature, then for the rest, I get a mana dork, a used up ETB creature, a creature someone WANTS to die, or a token...
This is pretty helpful, i try to construct decks but sometimes when im brainstorming it feels like my removal is lacking and it becomes a lot like the "too few/too many lands" situation where youre unsure that what you have is good enough. That and im always wary of etb trigger removal cahse it feels bad to have "etb destroy artifact/enchantment" in hand with no good targets but you can use it and be more proactive in advancing board state. Really hard balancing actbut this video helps put it in a better perspective
you can put as many removal spells/ counter spells you want. The problem will appear in turn 5-8. The conclusions: Not targetable creatures are immune to this and there are a lot. Not enough draw. Creatures with 'When you cast this spell' are the threat. Artifacts are troublesome or impossible to be removed. Graveyard decks usually don't care if you put more cards in their graveyard. In conclusion: Run a balance of removal spells and actual spells. Single removals will work on the big and cost effective targets for a counter turn and mass removals will work to set back your opponent who spent his turn just dropping creatures.
I have a kynaios and tiro of meletis that primarily interacts via etb permanents like cityscape leveler, I run around 15 removal spells and never run out of big beaters
Here I am running Tower of Calamities (4 to cast, 8 to deal 12 damage) as my removal engine and loving it. (deck is red green and ramp, so the large number is well worth the large cost when I need it, and the cost is affordable)
I tend to play a lot of recursion so creature with ETB is an ideal removal. That said it has two disadvantages that force me to play single target single use removal- first is sorcery speed basically in most cases. Thus a few instants is healthy. Second is somebody playing Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines or TorporOrb which require instant removal otherwise quite a lot from my deck just doesn’t work. Advantages of this are the fact that I can quickly go ahead and destroy about 6 key permanents per turn while keeping up a small army of big creatures up for attack or defence. It is a comfy way to play.
I always suggest split second removal and counter spells that cannot be counted. if that means adding blue to your caller Identity, then go for jf. because in the end, the Blue mage wants to have fun and doesn't want everyone looking at him or her with the expectation of dealing with a problem.
I’d like to also put forward creative removal. Could be considered synergistic removal like the video discusses, but you’d be surprised how many people don’t realize certain options even exist. Stuff like theft effects in a sacrifice focused decks, or goading creatures indefinitely can be a way to remove creatures while simultaneously gaining value from your opponents permanents
I will continue to espouse the use of Liquimetal Torque/Coating to aid with removal in red. Red is REALLY good at removing artifacts and with either of these out your artifact removal is now EVERYTHING removal.^^ Another neat trick is running cards such as Karn Silver Golem in a mono-black deck to deal with pesky artifacts. It's a creature so it's really easy to recur and it can turn non-creature artifacts into creatures which black is really good at removing.
I appreciate that this channel is teaching people how to think critically. Unfortunately, I will continue to face the same uninspired piles of value until the day I die.
I’ll be perfectly honest, I go a bit out of my way to make Removal feel as veggies-like as possible for my opponents. I love doing stuff like Eerie Interlude on a board that includes Eternal Witness, so that after my board’s dodged the Wipe, I get the Eerie Interlude back to do it again. Making an opponent struggle to answer a board state that may require 2 pieces of Spot Removal to get what they want from the wipe can inculcate in one’s opponent a feeling that, “All I’m doing is policing Player X, leaving Y & Z to run amok.” Nudging people back into feeling like they’ve got to eat the veggies raw also helps accomplish goals like making Boardwipe Tribal feel horrible to play. I’m all for a 14-16 Interaction Minimum, but yeah, I’ll go out of my way to prevent any new Saviors of the Pod from being born. Excalibur can stay in the Stone. It’s all good advice, people. Please don’t take it. ;)
The part about fitting the removal to the deck rings very true to a Henzie deck i build recently. It's got 17 cards, which classify as removal, of which only 4 are instants and one Culling Ritual, which does fit very nicely to ramp into something big and doesn't hurt my deck, as there's only 11 Permanents with cmc 2 or less in my deck, with all of those being dorks or mana rocks. My favourite piece of removal in the deck is Necron Deathmark. Its a flash creature, which means i can cast it during combat to block a creature, destroy another one with the etb and mill myself, because i have a large reanimator subtheme. My biggest question is, how can i convince the other people in my group to run more removal, because while currently almost all decks we play are battlecruiser decks that can theoretically play against each other without much in the removal department, I want to be able to play other archetypes (i.e. a combo deck, or maybe even a stax-ish deck) without having the parallel world problem, where either they hit me often enough so I die or I combo fast enough so I win, with the sole determinant of which outcome happens being who drew the fastest start. The current arguments were that 'I try to raise the power level' 'So we have to change all previous decks to be able to compete with the new generation of decks?' Any ideas on how you got your groups to include more removal? P.S. No, looking for a different group is not an option :)
I really love the way you share the experience you've learnt during your deck building in a nice approachable way where people can understand the decisions behind it and not just I've added this card. After watching multiple of your videos I think of your opinion really highly and was wondering if you could help me out. I am looking for a very specific play experience. I want to build a casual toolbox-like commander where it can find answers for multiple situations but doesn't finish through combat damage or an infite combo but doesn't keep the game too long and opressive to play against. Would you have any suggestions how to achieve this ir maybe some commander suggestions?
My group use a lot of pure removal (mostly because at least three of us are/used to be Modern players). I really like cards with several uses. Even if not always great, and usually pretty expensive for what they do. The Charms are pretty nice. Especially Abzan Charm. Card draw and removal in one card? What's not to like! Great video as usual.
my biggest issue with 1for1 removal isn't the opportunity cost of the deck space, it's the card disadvantage of actually casting the removal spell. Especially as games go longer and more and more threats are interacted with, the greedy players who let others use their removal often come out ahead.
I love the higher level philosophical approach to edh deck construction this channel showcases.
High level philosophical approach = play more removal 😂
@@swampybwoy I can only dismay seeing how unpenetrable your brain is to complex thought.
@@swampybwoy I mean, only if you didn't actually listen. A lot of commander players just don't think that hard about their decks, so these videos provide the tools for that kind of player to actually get why they might be losing or not having fun, and then improve. It's a lot of gentle prodding that you should probably try to genuinely participate in the games you play, and the means to do so. It gets into why you might make deck building decisions and the context for the heuristics players are often given without any additional explanations. Consider how many players go "I chose the big crab for my big leader guy, so I picked all the little crabs for my deck, and then some cards with crabs in the little picture, and, Hey, why is my deck bad??" When a lot of players have run so far astray from the competitive roots of the game, getting into the reasons you make deck building decisions really is reconnecting with the game design philosophies of the thing they're trying to play.
So much more valuable than deck techs. MTG TH-cam can feel quite stale, Snail's rapid rise is a clear indicator that most people know how to build around a commander: they just need more guidance on the higher level design and decision making.
tbh he's just saying obvious stuff in a neat and organized way. There are just a LOT of bad or inexperienced players, and there are just as many players who overestimate their skill level. In other words, if no one in the room is saying what needs to be said, no matter how simple it is, the one guy who says it will sound revolutionary.
Also - You just dont hear this content too often because algorithm trends disproportionately favor constant new content. Thats why most channels, no matter how unique they start out as, end up inevtiably reducing their content to just spoiler talk, mtg news talk, and general rants about the state of the game. This channel is one of the few that doesnt do that (or just gameplay footage, the other style of lukewarm mtg content)
My hope is that SS keeps up with this kind of content because no one else is really doing videos like this.
If you’re running mono Red, Bolt Bend is objectively the funniest “removal” spell when you have enough big creatures for it to work.
I love redirect effects. Hosed a guy constantly that refused to play against counterspells, but ran tons of edicts. I hope he learned that people countering his removal is a better option.
Wild ricochet is genuinely one of my favorite magic cards.
I love it in my ob nixilis deck, it has become even a bit infamous so much so that now whenever I have 1 red mana and ob out everyone is scared I might bolt bend an important spell lmao
@@alexkaplan6581You gotta be a fan of return the favor then, since its largely an even better version of the same card
@@binch6291 the new red flare redirect from modern horizons 3 is really cool too and is under $2 right now sac a non token red creature and cast it for free. Say someone goes to swords your commander respond with saccing your commander since it's being removed anyway and say "cool I'm swording your commander too" 😆
"What if we seasoned the vegetables" the video, good stuff.
Originally my script for this video included another couple hundred words of convoluted vegetable analogies but I ended up cutting them out. I'm glad some people see the vision!
@@salubrioussnail grilling the vegetables, flavour profiles and food pairings...
When I clicked onto this video, looking for ways to feel better about more removal in my Kestia Enchantress deck, I was kinda shocked to find myself already making these decisions. I tend to run mostly enchantment-based removal, so my removal spells also cantrip and sometimes even come attached with a free ancestral recall.
That was the whole idea with the deck to begin with though (How do I make Auras happen and not feel sad about getting 2 or 3 or 4-for-1'd?), but I've never thought about this for other types of decks. It seemed like a natural conclusion to make for the removal in Enchantress to me, but not elsewhere.
I wonder if that just means Enchantress is inherently easy to spice up and season, or if I've always had this kind of idea of how removal works? It's definitely odd.
@@salubrioussnailgo ahead and leave the silly analogies in. They set your videos apart and refocus listening.
The section about the appropriate removal for the deck type is excellent and ill def consider that if i brew again. Never considered it that way.
Oh yes! It makes decks feel so much more unique if you are not running the same staples in every one of them. I have a Imoti + Keruga Companion deck in which almost every big spell has some sort of bounce, fight or reclamation sage type effect. It feels like im just ramping and timmy casting big creatures but i also control the board while doing so. And my newest First doctor + Susan Foreman deck is focused around sagas which got so much support that i don't need to run a single dedicated removal spell in there.
When I help friends with their decks around this topic, I make sure to replace "control" and "removal" with "interaction" cards and it works so well!
It's exactly what we need more of for more interesting dynamic games.
I’ve never made a EDH deck before about a month ago and each video I watch gives me so many new ideas. Putting removal in a deck makes sense when it’s more than just removal.
I also really like removal that does other things along with removing, Binding the Old Gods (The 2BG Saga from Kaldhiem) is a really great removal spell because the second chapter snags you a land.
That card is so cool honestly
@@volosguidetomonsters3440 And now it gets Surveil Lands.
Also its cousin, Deathsprout
@@hardfoil am not as high on that cause it only hits creatures
Binding the Old Gods is great, and the fact that it's also an engine with Glissa Sunslayer has been quite enjoyable in several games.
my biggest thing is always trying to figure out which removal is the best (i don’t have deadly rollick money either), as well as how situational is too situational when it comes to removal. i also try to consider how i can be creative with removal without defaulting to the most played, best-in-slot cards all the time (which sometimes can’t be helped).
i’m still playing with preconstructed decks, but i’m trying to build my own completely original deck (once i come up with a good enough idea), so videos like this are helpful for getting the pieces together.
It's been best for me to think about what my deck can and can't deal with, I play a heavy ramp deck with card draw that wants to explode one turn and win or kill someone, I run less removal and more board protection because of that. I run removal like ezuri's predation cause I get value from it that I can turn into a win even with a bad board state.
Would love a followup when you finally end up making that new deck!
There are always cheap options. Often, the most expensive options (like Deadly Rollick) are only marginally better than the next best thing. In the case of Deadly Rollick, Dismember is often just as good. It can 1 mana as needed, and can kill an indestructible creature up to a X/5. Or Baleful Mastery, you can pay 4, or you can pay 1B to exile a creature or planeswalker if you're willing to let an opponent draw a card. Also, don't be so put off by even something as simple as Doom Blade. There' a reason it's iconic: it's good. Go For The Throat, Infernal Grasp, Power Word Kill are all equally good options with some small restrictions.
The best removal is 2 mana or less. The less, the better. Also don't be afraid to pay life to get a good deal on removal - you start with 40, use it!
Voltron decks try out asterions thirst 4 mana exile that gives x counters where x is removed creatures power (instant)
the warped “rounded deck” made me actually laugh. thank you 😂
I like removal that also advances your gameplan. For example, a card like Lethal Scheme can removed an opposing creature while looting up to 4(!) cards; while Astarion's Thirst is removal that also buffs your commander. A commander like Herigast, Erupting Nullkite can utilize threaten effects to steal opponent's creatures and sacrifice them to the deck's emerge costs.
Dude, your videos are top tier. Your deckbuilding advice has helped me blend in with the random pile of card/adjusted preconstructed/admittedly tryhard decks of my pod. 😂
I used to always be surprised with my decks when they worked, and whine when I fell behind. (I can be a sore loser. 😅) But knowing how to build a consistent deck has allowed me to be a lot more confident with how I interact at the table. All thanks to you!
there are some really interesting and strange removal options. Sometimes it's a creature, and most times it's a sorcery. Players don't normally play with aura's, but when someone does there's a board wipe that only hits creatures that are not enchanted with an aura.
What is that? That would be nice in a voltrin deck!
@@patches.742 winds of rath
@@patches.742 theres also extinguish all hope if the creatures themselves are enchantments
Having "removal engines" is a MAJOR key for mid-power. Going 1-for-1 with stuff like swords is useful when you need to answer a threat immediately, but often midpower games feature not one, but a wide range of large bastards that might need answering.
In my Yorion build Aerial Extortionist does triple duty as a reasonable flier, repeatable removal, and card advantage engine. The new Ethersworn Adjudicator looked like an unexciting mythic at first, but in a deck with Training Ground effects has been a chunky flier that can snipe multiple targets per turn.
At higher power levels counterspells and the 'staple' removal spells are a given, but that hidden factor of decks generally being leaner means those removal packages can often get much worse at dealing with the multitude of big, stupid threats flying around a lower power levels. If you're the only person packing that removal suite you're going to exhaust your hand before the 3 others taking turns tapping out to play giant idiots on curve run out of giant idiots.
Aethersworn Adjudicator was released in 2009
@@JacobHeaton-nq8yz now that is an unexciting mythic!
Do you ever find players get salty when your removal engine basically stops them from playing the game entirely though? I'm kinda on the fence with these since grave pact type effects are where my mind goes when I hear removal engine and I know that those effects aren't well liked.
@@matta6639 I personally don't run repeatable edict effects in casual decks because I'm not a fan of the experience they create at the table and because they draw an inordinate amount of hate.
I played with a guy who ran the Rishadan sac guy cycle in a flicker deck, and I told him I recommended cutting them because in low amounts they are not very good, as holding up 1 or 2 mana isn't that hard and you can eventually just remove them, but they will piss everyone off. However, in high amounts they basically start functioning like repeatable stone rains, which will ABSOLUTELY draw hate and can create uninteresting nongames if you can't win quickly enough after devastating people's mana bases.
He did not cut them and got beat the fuck up one game after making 1 guy sac 1 land. If you want to live like that, go with God, but think about it this way.
Card A will give you a 50/50 to win the game if you untap with it and Card B will just improve your position. Card A is better, but your opponents will let you resolve and keep Card B.
I love thematic removal, like my frog tribal has multiple cards that turn people's creatures into 1/1 frogs with no abilities, and my enchantress deck runs grasp of fate and might be one of my favorite enchantments, my voja deck run werefox bodyguard in my voja deck that synergies really well
In my frog tribal I just use my frog cards to make my own cards into frogs so I get more frogs💀💀💀
8:40 is probably **the most** important point. Before slotting in removal you need to know what the gameplan of the deck is and what major obstacles could come up. There's one aspect that is usually never mentioned or even considered for any kind of beat-down deck (go-wide, voltron, etc.) and that is stax. Stax will slow down your table, resulting in slower board development on your opponents side which also means there are less blockers, or other problematic pieces that require your removal. By running the right pieces of stax, you can remove a couple pieces of removal. And this is especially beneficial when your stax pieces are also creatures that can attack. Going through 120 life points even with synergistic effects takes time and requires continuous board development from your side. For example, in a Boros beatdown deck you can run all sorts of "rule of law" effects because your (non cEDH) ramp is very limited and you probably will only be able to play 1 spell at a time anyways. If you happen to get a treasure engine it's still fine because this allows you to hold up interaction on top of playing a creature a turn so it's really not a downside for you but it might cripple a lot of other decks and that gives you time to lower everyone's life points.
Devastate is a fun card but as a warning for those who don"t know, you need ALL possible targets to be available in order to cast it. So if no one happens to have an enchantment or the only enchantment is yours it can be a bit awkward. Casualtys of war does not have this problem
This is true. 80% of the time it's fantastic, but that 20% it can be a bit rough.
My first edh deck was a slower deck with a lot of cheap removal spells. After only a few games I pretty much never got attacked because people knew their stuff was at risk of dying it it went after me. The threat of removal alone allowed me to comfortably get into the late game where my deck shined.
Great advice. I particularly like the idea of having a card serve multiple roles. The card I use that way is Settle the Wreckage which some unfortunate amount of the time I send at opponents and survive feeling dirty inside, but a more wholesome amount of the time I use it as the incredible ramp spell that it desperately wants to be. After damage at the end of combat step of course.
Great video! Totally agree
I tend to be more on the "Removal can't keep up with overpowered cards/decks", but the line of thought this video explains is just high quality
You're channel is a godsend. I just recently came back to MTG and EDH. I'm reviewing my decks and came across this channel. I'm horrified at my decklists! Which just means more tinkering time and tuning on my decks which is a win.
I genuinely thought the thimbnail was a 9/11 joke for a second
Can you cover spell slinger decks in a future video?
I would love a cover of Stela Lee, Wild Card precon
Yes please! All my Spellslinger decks suffer from the fact they take too long to get the commander out and rolling, and I would love some advice on how to pace games so I can still have explosive turns, 10 turns into the game
They also run the risk of being targeted like my taigam ojutai master since I load up on board wipes that leave taigam alive or removal
@@Punkmationyou should try ghyrson starn, he’s 1, a blue, and a red, and when you ping any target for 1 he does 2 more to it. It plays VERY low to the ground with an average cmc of 2 or less and can get started very quickly as you just need a creature that pings opponents when you cast instants and sorcs and you can run a lot of cantrips to trigger them over and over. Running more cantrips also inherently makes the consistency very high and digs through the deck very easily. My casual starn deck can typically win turn 6-7 assuming I’m not hard targeted. Also just running cheap ping spells can wipe boards usually with just 2 cards.
@@Retr0Sk1ll thank you! But I already play him :D that was my first deck, and indeed does not suffer from a late start. But that’s a ping deck, and I’m looking to play a storm or X spells deck
Okay, after watching the video, I want to say that the insightful expression of including removal was both eloquent and useful; the video was concise, but hearty; well done.
IMO, the most compelling reasons to run removal are...
- It gives you more turns to play out your own cool synergies by slowing down opponents who would end the game too soon.
- It keeps opponents honest in their deckbuilding, ensuring they keep protection cards and challenges them to form contingency plans.
- It ensures that the player who got luckiest with land drops doesn't automatically win: instead, player skill (when to use removal, who to use it on) and the extra layer of randomization (drawing removal or not) helps to curve the playing field towards a more even matchup.
It would be cool if there was a list somewhere that had removal spells that are beneficial to different deck types. The section about those kinds of spells really got me searching for something like that.
Scryfall advanced search is probably your best bet to find removal with specific costs, type, or text. For example, you could find some removal engines by searching for cards with oracle text containing "whenever", "destroy", and "target".
It's because a removal suite is tailored for each individual deck. The personalized removal section deserves as much thought as creature selection.
This is why I love Kalamax. Doubling the value of most of your cards (and then just making them all a healthy combination of ramp, draw, and removal) as a baseline does amazing things. It makes it even better when you can hold all of it up and consistently play on opponents' turns, making it much easier to react to threats and provided there's no threat that you need to deal with, go back to ramping and drawing.
Based Kalamax enjoyer
Kalamax is the only Dinosaur I i kept myself away from, since it always feels like he makes the game so easy lol.
But yeah, he is a blast as long as the table is appropriately aware of its power level and can match it.
Shoutout to Ashes to Ashes, gotta be one of the best sorcery speed removal options in casual and so few people know about it.
Another removal engine for any deck running a self-mill package is life form the loam and channel lands. I'm sure its nothing new to some players, but for those who don't know: after you self mill life from the loam and a channel land or two you can dredge it back to your hand (allowing you to mill more), and cast it returning the channel lands (and maybe a fetch if you don't have 3 in the grave yet) you have to your hand. From there simply use the channel lands and regrab the life from the loam with dredge again. Nearly all of them are rather impactful in what they can do (outside of the red one).
Green can act as removal at the cost of giving the opp a land when you do.
White can serve as a combat trick to make it hard to justify blocking or attacking you without a 1/1 being able to trade an opponents 5/5.
Blue serves as a repeatable efficiently costed bounce spell that can be used on tokens, high costed cards, or even as a way to reset a buffed creature with lots of +1/+1 counters.
And the black one serves as a creature regrowth and even more mill!
Assuming you have the extra draw to compensate for the loss of draw from life from the loam's dredge, repeating these serves as a good way to spend extra mana each turn; almost like a mana sink
It being an engine that will turn itself online once you just mill the right cards is also really big bonus, meaning it has little to no setup outside of milling yourself, which the deck was probably doing anyways. And it only costs a single nonland slot in the deck (and you may probably already be running Life from the Loam for the dredge anyways), and a few utility land slots.
this is super good advice when I was first picking up the game my first deck I made to remedy my own unwillingness to run removal was a mono black murder themed deck with a bunch of monsters that gave benefits when an opponent's creature died
It always baffles me, how more kitchen table EDH players often times will complain about an infinite variety of decks, yet refuse to simply play interaction and when someone plays interaction for their stuff, they'll complain about that as well. They'll complain about someone playing a solitaire type deck instead of playing interaction, yet will complain when someone interacts with their solitaire strategy.
I hope this video reaches a lot of people. Maybe you should make a video about how to play around interaction next (baiting counterspells, not over-extending to the board against boardwipes, playing creature- or artifact-based ramp against land destruction etc. and of course understanding, that every strategy will always have a weakness, even their own strategy).
idk what it is exactly but I really appreciate your voice and the way you ennnunciate. I find it very easy to be completely invested in your videos. Great analysis as always!
In my Jenny Flint & Madame Vastra investigators deck, the commanders are half the creature removal i need on their own, but my creature-specific removal consists mostly of "target creature you control deals damage" and Fight cards, with one of them (Ulvenwald Tracker) being a permanent that can repeatedly instigate Fights, and this plays beautifully into the engine of the commanders, but because this type of removal is so specific, and because protection and combat tricks combined with "Madame Vastra must be blocked if able." is functionally also creature removal, i only run 4 of these cards (with Decisive Denial doubling as a counterspell) out of 19 Removal cards in the deck. (Only 6 counterspells because they're good, but i want my opponents to play more removal and feel like it matters.)
This is exactly how you have to think of this. I run an Intet the Dreamer big Dragons deck and each dragon is picked either for combat tricks or for removal. Were talking damage dealt to non-flying creatures, direct damage to single targets, recursion, or removal targeting artifacts. I was happy to hear Hull Breach in this video.
Hey! I never comment, but I Loved the Radha deck so much that I played it a lot and put my own spin on it. I threw in 2 wastes and turned it into a 7 mana colorless matters deck. I still kept the koglas and the cascaders! It's quickly becoming my favorite deck.
Nice! That sounds like a fun spin on the deck. Breaker of Creation certainly makes that tempting, I've found myself wanting lifegain and hoo boy is that card a lot of lifegain when I have 15+ lands in play
Hex: "Finally, my time to shine!"
Seriously though, two recent cards I love are Requisition Raid(spree, destroy artifact, enchantment, and/or put +1/+1 on your creatures) in a counters deck and Collective Resistance to do similar(single target heroic intervention instead of counters) in my mono green Goreclaw deck. They hit the sweet spots of being cheap(4 mana for all modes), allow you to hit more than one target, and pull double duty filling a particular niche or synergy within the deck.
Thanks to content like yours I've put more interaction into my decks and advicing other players to play more aswell. Games became more fun since then and I'm loving it.
Recently I played in a pod with someone I play regulary in my LGS and at the start of the game he said to the other two, wich I played against like once or twice, that I'm playing a lot of interaction they have to watch out for. So yeah, because of people like you I'm kinda the "interaction-guy" in my playgroup now :)
As a longtime limited player, I’ve always found the distaste for interaction in edh bizarre. That said, your approaches to fitting more than spot removal into decks was really fun to hear about!
I love the Snail. Imagine how much more content he could be doing if he wouldn't need to chase all those billionaires around.
This is why I saw Invoke Despair coming as the powerhouse it was until its banning in Standard.
It's multi-removal with wide card-type coverage stapled to your card-advantage for either your midrange or control deck. It was just a matter of there being a heavily-black deck worth playing, and it was obviously going to be multiple layers of that triple-chocolate cake on its own.
I've been aware of this concept all the way back since the beginning of my time in the format because Prophetic Bolt and Eternal Witness was a standout removal & draw engine anongst the jank of the Riku of Two Reflections precon. It was one of the best things you could do with the deck. Also as far as the tempo involved, obviously that combination with the extra copying was very mana-hungry, but E-Wit alone earlier in the game recurred your ramp, while Prophetic Bolt alone in the midgame dealt with something and dug towards more lands and ramp, and towards the E-Wit.
Adding a Crystal Shard was the first thing I did, which allowed you to loop this combo in the ultra-lategame, dumping all of your mana every turn to kill things, regrow a card, draw cards, and make a blocker.
(Yes, extremely mana-hungry. The power-level and total card-pool of the format was so much lower back then unless you were playing Zur Doomsday/Voltron or Arcum Dagson or Sharuum infinite combo.)
Druid of purification is one of the most underrated multi-removal options. It consistently eliminates the 3-4 scariest artifacts and enchantments at the table. (That you don’t own) all for 3 and a green.
I love the part about the right removal for the right deck. I really started noticing this when I built Clavileno. As a BW aggro-aristocrats deck that generally wins through combat and needs to attack to get value, I found that the best removal was the 1- to 2-mana spot removal that BW offers plenty of. The deck needs velocity, but has very little ramp, so cheap, universal removal helps you stay ahead of your opponents' tempo, which in turn presents player removal and a draw/token engine with Clavileno. Once I started viewing removal as a way of gaining a tempo advantage so that the deck could execute its primary gameplan, it became much more consistent (and fun) than it was when it ran more splashy, high CMC emergency buttons.
It does still have a few hard resets, notably Damn, but that's partly because board wipes drawing you 3+ cards and making a flying demon token army is pretty good. Plus as an aristocrats-hybrid deck, you can also throw in powerful removal engines like Attrition and Grave Pact too if that's your thing.
But but ... My flashy tribal psynergy win more card is so cool in best case scenarios 😂
GOLDEN SUN MENTIONED
If your playgroup is not cool with stax, I think you need to be careful about the inclusion of 'Removal Engines'. If you're running something like Retribution of the Ancients in a +1/+1 counter deck, where it can become trivially easy to activate it more than once per turn, it can feel pretty close to "opponents can't cast creature spells".
Aura Shards may as well say "opponents' enchantments and artifacts have Vanishing 1". Royal Assassin is less staxy but still has the potential to be oppressive if you can untap him. Trygon Predator is probably the safest as he can just be blocked or removed, and he's capped at 1 trigger per turn without extra combats.
A player's removal engine tolerance will likely vary depending on what deck they're playing and general temperament, but my feeling is that even just being able to trigger/activate them 2-3 times per turn cycle is enough to quickly approach stax status.
i love the white 3 mana destroy up to one target artifact or enchantment each opponent controls with cycling to destroy all. i also love stifle effects, i think they’re so massively underrated in almost all formats to some extent but definitely underrated in commander
I run a Maelstrom Wanderer deck and while it's mostly a big mana beatdown, it also runs (nearly) every modal counterspell I can grab. It just seems to fit into the deck to occasionally cascade into a Cryptic Command and have it be an expensive copy of Drag Under.
For me, multi-use cards can fix this issue for the most part. For example, instead of using beast within, use archdruid's charm. It can remove almost anything like beast within, but it can also tutor up creatures and lands. Shadowspear is another example since it can bolster your creatures while removing indestructable and hexproof.
There's tons of cards like that, and they dramatically reduce the feels bad of adding interaction. They do tend to run for multiple times the cost of pure removal, however. Imo, proxy all day baby.
I love removal that plays into your Commander's design. My Rielle has counter spells that either discard for cost or have a better effect with Rielle on board. She also has burn spells that discard for cost to have stronger damage or damage based on hand size. It really lets me clear the board while cycling through my deck. Then there's Turbulent Dreams, effectively a discount Cyclonic Rift.
I love this channel. So happy I stumbled upon it this year. Please keep making videos like this, even though I sometimes vehemently disagree with what you say, your ideas are always really interesting and you present them in a very structured and informative way, and I can always take something away from them into my own EDH experience :D
I look at counter/Removal like this
Brake the game down to its basics
In most games you're goal is to remove a card your enemy controls with one of yours, preferable while you keep yours
But in a game as dynamic as MTG that's not always going to be the case. This is mostly with creature spells
So the way i look at it, when i cast a counter/kill spell i know deep down if it dosent have an activated ability that will save it it will always be a 1 for 1 trade
If u have draw power your hand should always look better then your enemy
So I have a Vraska the Silencer deck on the way, and that's the first deck in a long time where I felt I needed just a heinous amount of removal in various forms (for those in the cheap seats, ANY time a non-token creature dies, I can spend 1 and steal it as a treasure). Not running a lot of board wipes (only running 1 in Culling Ritual) because my game plan is to pick and choose my kills for value rather than "Hey, Greg over there has a spooky board, so probably should kill everything." Plus, since whatever I kill can just be a treasure with upside (etb, mana dorks, static effects), they're actually somewhat resistant to common board wipes. Additionally, there's a Deathtouch subtheme (as well as the design restriction of "I have to use every Vraska Planeswalker and every card that mentions Vraska in the name or rules text") meaning I have 11 "traditional" single target removals (able to snipe key targets) as well as the option to go flexible with either my Planeswalkers or my Creatures doubling as Removal
I think a perspective I have on this is that the more staples of a certain color/color combination you run, the more your deck becomes homogenous with decks that share the same color or color combinations. Especially when Commander feels like a format where you want to express your ideas, running too many staples or the "best cards at X" stops you from expressing your own thoughts and deckbuilding. (The deck will gravitate towards becoming a CEDH deck that does everything hyper efficiently, which, CEDH can be great, but this isn't exactly the goal here.)
So personally I do the method where I blend my removals and interactions within my own synergy, at least try to, not always guaranteed that the keyword or theme has enough of what you need. This allows me to look to spend less space dedicated to "just good cards for x" which you can reasonably see in any deck of said color, but still get in the things I need. Either Ramp, Removal, Protection, card draw, all the necessary things, analyzing what your theme is already good at is a great way to pack more flavor while not losing out too much on overall coverage.
Doing the analysis for each important asset your deck needs to cover helps out greatly in terms of finding out what your deck can do in excess and what it really lacks, present different scenarios in deck testing will often lead you to realize when your deck may be lacking in some aspect
"How much do I need to worry about drawing more cards? How much gas do I reasonably need? How much would I need to reasonably reach my wincon?"
Finding what your synergy and theme lacks, and fill those empty spots with a potential mix of staples, modal cards etc. to deal with that weakness, you can't always cover all the weakness, arguably, sometimes it's fun to leave weaknesses in your deck for your opponents to exploit and for you to conquer in game, but you will have a more interactive time without seeing the same old friends in every deck.
As much as I enjoy these videos, I feel like coming from a standpoint of efficiency > fun is a surefire way to have people not really enjoy commander. You can play against other efficient decks day after day and win/lose in the same ways; or you can play against fun decks and actually feel like your personality and interests are on display, win or lose.
As someone that has been heavily into card games for over 15 years I’ve learned that winning and chasing the fleeting joy that comes with it is nice; but enjoying yourself and spending your time doing something you like first and foremost is better.
@@josiahclarke3535
Actually, the video is not advocating for efficiency > fun, it's saying that by being more conscious about running more interactions, which does make your deck more efficient, you end up creating a more dynamic, and potentially more fun environment.
Lack of interaction is usually a recipe for decks that are solitaire in nature, essentially putting everyone on a solitaire race.
I think it's a per pod issue, Snail simply provides some good ways to think about how to bring in more for your deck while sacrificing less of your own expression.
As a player who is consistently a high priority target at the table, I advocate that higher removal options in decks is how to help suppress threatening players and is how I often win my games. Being able to address a problematic card is vital to winning games. You're delusional if you think that you can always pull off your strategy faster than your opponents and that they won't stop you from doing so. Your opponents aren't at the table to watch you win, they're at the table to play and win too.
I have a The Scorpion God deck, that was so much fun and had a removal engine in it. I would run Crumbling Ashes, so on my upkeep, I would respond to the Crumbling Ashes trigger on the stack by activating The Scorpion God, and put a -1/-1 counter on something. Then I would allow the stack to resolve, crumbling ashes could then kill the creature with the -1/-1 counter on its then I would get to draw a card from The Scorpion God’s ability. It was a really good combo. I have a LOT of removal in that deck.
I have become "the removal player" in my pod. My main deck is an Akiri equipment deck with over 14 ways of removal. All built around sunforger. Feels great to control a board in boros
An interesting issue that has popped up often for me, and the main reason why I prefer a wide and blended removal suite over a dense one, is that more often than not strong removal engines and multi target removal draws aggro from the table. If your playgroup is particularly spiteful or quick to realize the power a good removal engine holds, you can quickly become the archenemy of the table, or worse, draw attention away of the target of your interaction, who probably needed to be stopped.
This kind of comes with the whole psychology of playing a respectable amount of interaction in commander, which I think comes from the question of in what situation do you want to play that removal. A strong engine can be useful when you are moving ahead, to suppress the board into maintaining a winning position, while multi target removal can be used to break parity and ensure you put yourself in that position.
That is why I am more of a supporter of making sure the interaction package is mostly composed of instant speed lean answers or synergistic pieces that blend in the deck, as they should succeed in pushing your opponents' back without putting a target on your back.
I have a funny story to tell regarding my philosophy when it comes to removal.
For the most part, the removal cards I play tend to be very similar. Swords go into every white deck, beast within go into every green deck, yada yada. Then, WotC decided to release Obeka and I got unreasonably excited. Even as people everywhere began complaining that every single Obeka deck is the same, I would not let go. Because I did not care about the upkeep cards.
What I left me excited was that instead of my regular removal cards, I was able to build a whole new removal package with cards like Nameless Inversion, Warped Physique and Reverse the Polarity. It's that wonderful bit of extra spice when a Removal Spell is not only a Removal Spell, but also an extra three upkeeps when it counts.
The question of how to use removal and what it is for has plagued me for literal years. That last section was immensely helpful. The more specialized my deck is, the more specialized its answers can be. The faster my deck goes, the more I lean towards the efficient staples.
As I continue to slow down my equipment deck, for example, I suould look into ways to make its removable more flexible and more effective over multiple turns, since I now plan on winning through combat over an unknown amount of turns.
I think another key way that helps one run more is running slightly less worse removal that is thematic. My favorite deck is my Rakdos, Hell deck ie demons and some friends. Some of the worse yet still solid removal I run: Slaughter Pact, Ob Nixilis’ Cruelty, Bedevil, Terminate, Reiver Demon, Reaper from the Abyss, Dread Cacodemon, Demon of Dark Schemes, etc. It helps when demons love to kill stuff.
I think all too often folks obsess on ‘the best’ when shaving a few percentage points off quality for variety helps keep decks feeling fresh and unique. Your building blocks of a deck feel less like filler when they smoothly integrate into their exact setup. And in general I think EDH is better served with more pet cards and silly choices over further optimization.
This is something i’ve found really works in practice, for example probably my favorite deck is ramos (who gets counters and makes mana based on number of colours in a spell) and I run a ridiculous number of removal spells, about 20 (granted lots are things like charms), but they are all bad 2-3 pip removal spells. Despite this, it never feels bad to get removal because it’s helping me in other ways. I can remove whatever I want and it still does stuff.
shenanigans is an amazing recurring removal spell for artifact hate in red decks. Its just a shatter with dredge 1, I use it in my mono red decks as one of the removal options.
This video is making me heavily consider taking (yet) another look at my Aesi deck. It's still doing fine ofc, Aesi landfall does in fact go brrr. But I've bent it in a control direction to help temper the rampant "What's an interaction" style that my playgroup has, and find myself running out of answers pretty quickly when I have to try to police multiple people. I wasn't even aware of that Simic flier, but it's definitely going onto my buy list immediately!
To be clear, the other veteran player at the table is glad I have this deck, even as literally every counterspell and about half the removal went his way. I'm mostly trying to show the newer players by example why interactions are a good thing, actually.
I've never had a problem with running enough removal, though the kind of removal varies deck to deck.
But I've always seen deck building as a matter of ratios, so making sure that whether my interaction is single target, boardwipes, or the engines you talked about, its always been about hitting a target. I will say, going in with an idea of how many of each "type" of card already makes it easier fitting everything, grabbing extra of everything and slimming everything down.
Though my mixture of adhd and spreadsheeting is perhaps not for everyone, lol, especially considering Ive never really used scryfall or edhrec
one of my favorite cards in my +1/+1 deck is Hopeful initiate that can remove 2 counters from your creature(s) to target remove artifact or enchantment. It's an engine but more importantly it fits with the decks goal of generatomg counters and using them to win.
The general gist is that high end cards that can directly impact the board have more value than just random things that do things, and then you build a deck that abuses or reuses these things. For example reclamation sage is worse than naturalize, until you start reanimating, flicker, etc it over and over.
The main issue I have with the “play more removal” crowd is that they use it in response to hyper efficient or broken threats as if that’s the way to just keep those threats off the table. For example, if Voja is pissing you off, his ward 3 means it’s not so simple to play a Ravenous Chupacabra to kill it because you essentially have to pay 7 mana for the chupacabra to actually kill Voja, which is simply not happening, especially if it’s turn 2 or 3. So they’re basically telling you to play 10 copies of swords to plowshares or similar effect cards (very low CMC, almost always only 1-for-1, etc.) so you can just remove those threats quickly and mana efficiently multiple times before they become uncastable, which I find to be a ridiculous argument.
The best argument for running more removal is; try it and watch how easy everyone else's plans fumble. In my Gonti deck I run about 8 pieces of spot removal, mostly repeatable like Royal Assassin or Fleshbag Marauder + graveyard recursion, and a similar amount of board wipes. The rest of the deck is just Gonti-enablers, ramp, and carddraw. I win most games I play with that deck.
Generally speaking, a deck needs 2 types of removal spells: First are the efficient, single target removal spells for what I call "surgical strikes". These will usually remain in your hand until you spot a crucial piece on the table that needs to go ASAP. Then we have the nuclear strikes, spells that send the entire table back to square 1. These are better when you have fallen behind on board and have little to nothing to use. I prefer to include cards that hit every nonland permanent with those.
To be honest, removal engines aren't my cup of tea because they tend to create miserable board states. Cards like Dictate of Erebos and Grave Pact are extremely powerful but they end up annihilating the table and make everyone hate you.
There is no strictly right or wrong way to play your removal spells but, if you try to hold back and take out only what's bound to take over the game within the next couple of turns, you will not only find that you are wasting less cards, you will also see that the table will be much more lenient with your plays.
Oh, you are my spirit animal. I try to tell all my friends to do this and they always wonder why I never have any issues. It’s because they need more removal and in a flavorful way.
to elaborate on the food analogy, choosing your removal should be less like boiled brocoli, and more like a well crafted salad- a genuinely enjoyable and flavorful experience. Hell, I have a mon-black reanimator deck, and I try and keep as much of my removal stapled on a body if I can- helps the deck kill stuff when it does what it wants to do.
One of my favorite multipurpose removal spells is Binding the Old Gods. It removes any nonland permanent, provides non-basic Forest ramp, and aides in overruns (not by much, but full board DT is nothing to scoff at if you have ways to get trample on everything). On top of that, it’s easily reusable in many of the decks that would run it, like Muldrotha or Go-Shintai of Life’s Origin
That's a good one. I run it in my Glissa deck and the fact that she also turns the card into an alternating removal/ramp engine is just icing on the cake.
@@salubrioussnail How could I have forgotten Glissa, given who I was talking to. Another topic that you somewhat brushed against in the video is asymmetrical board wipes, where the problem of setting yourself back is mitigated by matching the wipe to your deck’s play style. There are all purpose ones, like In Garruk’s Wake and Ruinous Ultimatum, but those are mana intensive and, in the latter’s case, color intensive. I’m a big fan of more niche ones, like Organic Extinction. There are also a good number that only hit higher power creatures, like Slaughter the Strong and Sculpted Sunburst, both of which put in spectacular work in my budget Council of Four deck, in which Sunburst usually reads as “exile all creatures except for Council of Four”. Yes, I lose the rest of my board, but so long as the Council’s value engine is untouched, I can invariably rebuild faster than the rest of the table
If anything, I've got the opposite problem. I "learned" to play EDH via some of the old principles of "X removals, Y draw, Z ramp..." patterns, meaning I'm always going into a deck knowing I'm gonna' have a ton of removal. If anything, I don't think _ten_ removal is enough. 90% of games end in combos. If you want to stand a chance, you need to be able to interact with those combos. The problem is that, of a little over the 60 cards I have budgeted for spells (excluding the Commander), it often means I don't have a ton of actual deck to play with. Usually only about 20 tops after I "pay my taxes" (analogous to your terminology of "vegetables"). And what's more, because I assume everybody else builds decks the way I do, I assume there's a ton of removal out there ready to snipe me the moment I get off the ground. Anticipating this, I staple in protection pieces like Lightning Greaves, Tef Pro, Deflecting Swat and Heroic Intervention as carelessly as I would run a Sol Ring. It's just what you do. I like to joke that, even when I'm _not_ playing Esper, I'm _still_ playing Esper because I always need a response to everything.
Instead, more recently, I've been making decks that curb the amount of removal I run. Instead of building decks to _solve_ problems, I build decks to _be_ problems, notably Raffine reanimator and Jinnie Fay token upgrader. The aim of those is to generate so much value that you can play through the disruption and bounce back reliably. In fact, my latest deck is a Livaan / Raised by Giants deck (it's come to my attention that the original plan of Miirym is far too obvious) that aims to land fatal commander damage like an RKO via purposefully expensive spellslinger pieces and power-doubling combat tricks. I run under ten targeted removal, which is a big deal for me, instead opting for more engine pieces in a deck that is particularly hungry for in-engine shenanigans. My late game curve is basically a straight line.
2:18 I was hoping you'd mention soul shatter! It's one of my favorite removal spells of all time because it's so incredibly good in mid-late game
Gruul Ragebeast and Kogla are great! Beatdown needs to keep the board relatively uncluttered by heaps of value creatures, so having a card that both beats and deals with stuff on board is perfect. I run both in my Maelstrom Wanderer deck.
Good insight. I’m definitely running a few too many single-target removal pieces. I’ve got a few decent ideas that fit with my deck’s plan.
I like to think of removal as answers, you want answer slots. For example if i'm playing Sigarda Host of Herons as my commander, I need to assume that counter spells would be the disruption therefore I need a certain amount of answers to ensure that safe cast, so things like Cavern of Souls, destiny spinner etc now become a part of the deck. Since targeted removal is pointless against hexproof next I need to worry about boardwipes, so flickerform indestructable engines etc become paramount. As far as the removal multi removal is the way to go, also I'd say you want aggressive answers for things your deck doesn't run a ton of. If you are an enchantment based deck and you can slide in some destroy all artifacts go for it, people react less aggressively to all effects, singling out stuff with removal makes players feel hated on. Cards like windgrace's judgement will draw less ire in many cases than a swords to plowshares
What i also do is include removal options that also give me a little extra synergy
Like spider food in a food deck or deathsprout in a landfall deck
The answer is play more flexible removal that can also advance your boardstate if necessary. My favorite examples are Eldrazi Confluence and Three Steps Ahead.
It’s not realistic for every deck to just run more removal if your deck is weaker and needs those deck slots to win.
My Zaxara deck has lots of good enchantment/artifact removal in Steelbane Hydra, Tyranid Abberant and Rampaging Yao Guai all the while furthering my game plan
A great example of multi-card removal that I discovered recently is Make an Example, from the New Capenna Commander decks. How it works is a bit confusing, but essentially, it kills either the best creature on each opponent's board, or every creature except the best one, all while getting around most forms of protection.
I continue to find that running more removal or interaction in general doesn’t really work if you're the only one following that advice.
That seems odd, if you are the only player who decides what can and can not stick, then you should be able to dictate the flow of most of the game?
@@CameronSMooreThe issue is there’s still real opportunity cost to casting removal as it requires mana to hold up at instant speed or for the case of board wipes will tend to many instances of you wiping and getting to rebuild last. In these scenarios, the players that efficiently ramped and managed to get cards in hand through synergistic board building will have an upper hand again.
@@CameronSMoore for awhile absolutely, but eventually in most games 3 people will be able to assemble enough resources that you can't stop all of them and since you've been doing less in order to stop other people it usually means you haven't amassed as many resources. There is just a limit to how much policing one person can do.
@@CameronSMoorenot if you run out of resources going 1-1 with problematic single permanents and then getting outvalued by the other two players at the table. and if you can keep up with resources that easily, you're probably winning the game anyways.
the idea the original commentor is getting at, i think, is that an entire table full of decks with robust removal suites helps to curb situations where one player gets ahead, since the other three players can trade 1-1 and run the problematic player out of resources. but if just one person is running removal, or even if the other players at the table see that you're playing removal so they decide to hold onto theirs, you just wind up running yourself out of resources.
i think the way to cut the gordian knot with this is that you need removal *and* ways of applying pressure. people tend to play more defensively when their life total gets closer to 0 than 40.
But not 100%... because I only have so many removal options... if I am the only one playing the police of the table, when I actually NEED the removal options, they're not there for me. If people don't have removal, but know you do, they'll send all their threats at you and say "deal with it or be KOed." In order to realistically deal with every threat at the table, I have to assume each player has at least 5-12 threats... meaning I need between 15 (at bare minimum) and 36 (at max) removal pieces to deal with them. Because the multi removal is good... if each player has an equivalent "threat" on board... usually my Vraska's fall hits one player's big creature, then for the rest, I get a mana dork, a used up ETB creature, a creature someone WANTS to die, or a token...
This is pretty helpful, i try to construct decks but sometimes when im brainstorming it feels like my removal is lacking and it becomes a lot like the "too few/too many lands" situation where youre unsure that what you have is good enough. That and im always wary of etb trigger removal cahse it feels bad to have "etb destroy artifact/enchantment" in hand with no good targets but you can use it and be more proactive in advancing board state. Really hard balancing actbut this video helps put it in a better perspective
i don't usually watch commander videos because I mainly play 60-card constructed, but man, this snail is good
Great details, clear organized ideas- thanks
you can put as many removal spells/ counter spells you want. The problem will appear in turn 5-8. The conclusions:
Not targetable creatures are immune to this and there are a lot.
Not enough draw.
Creatures with 'When you cast this spell' are the threat.
Artifacts are troublesome or impossible to be removed.
Graveyard decks usually don't care if you put more cards in their graveyard.
In conclusion: Run a balance of removal spells and actual spells. Single removals will work on the big and cost effective targets for a counter turn and mass removals will work to set back your opponent who spent his turn just dropping creatures.
I have a kynaios and tiro of meletis that primarily interacts via etb permanents like cityscape leveler, I run around 15 removal spells and never run out of big beaters
Here I am running Tower of Calamities (4 to cast, 8 to deal 12 damage) as my removal engine and loving it. (deck is red green and ramp, so the large number is well worth the large cost when I need it, and the cost is affordable)
I tend to play a lot of recursion so creature with ETB is an ideal removal. That said it has two disadvantages that force me to play single target single use removal- first is sorcery speed basically in most cases. Thus a few instants is healthy. Second is somebody playing Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines or TorporOrb which require instant removal otherwise quite a lot from my deck just doesn’t work.
Advantages of this are the fact that I can quickly go ahead and destroy about 6 key permanents per turn while keeping up a small army of big creatures up for attack or defence. It is a comfy way to play.
I always suggest split second removal and counter spells that cannot be counted. if that means adding blue to your caller Identity, then go for jf.
because in the end, the Blue mage wants to have fun and doesn't want everyone looking at him or her with the expectation of dealing with a problem.
I’d like to also put forward creative removal. Could be considered synergistic removal like the video discusses, but you’d be surprised how many people don’t realize certain options even exist.
Stuff like theft effects in a sacrifice focused decks, or goading creatures indefinitely can be a way to remove creatures while simultaneously gaining value from your opponents permanents
I will continue to espouse the use of Liquimetal Torque/Coating to aid with removal in red. Red is REALLY good at removing artifacts and with either of these out your artifact removal is now EVERYTHING removal.^^
Another neat trick is running cards such as Karn Silver Golem in a mono-black deck to deal with pesky artifacts. It's a creature so it's really easy to recur and it can turn non-creature artifacts into creatures which black is really good at removing.
I appreciate that this channel is teaching people how to think critically. Unfortunately, I will continue to face the same uninspired piles of value until the day I die.
I’ll be perfectly honest, I go a bit out of my way to make Removal feel as veggies-like as possible for my opponents.
I love doing stuff like Eerie Interlude on a board that includes Eternal Witness, so that after my board’s dodged the Wipe, I get the Eerie Interlude back to do it again.
Making an opponent struggle to answer a board state that may require 2 pieces of Spot Removal to get what they want from the wipe can inculcate in one’s opponent a feeling that, “All I’m doing is policing Player X, leaving Y & Z to run amok.”
Nudging people back into feeling like they’ve got to eat the veggies raw also helps accomplish goals like making Boardwipe Tribal feel horrible to play.
I’m all for a 14-16 Interaction Minimum, but yeah, I’ll go out of my way to prevent any new Saviors of the Pod from being born.
Excalibur can stay in the Stone.
It’s all good advice, people.
Please don’t take it. ;)
I love when I can run mdfcs for land or removal, the versatile is invaluable
The part about fitting the removal to the deck rings very true to a Henzie deck i build recently. It's got 17 cards, which classify as removal, of which only 4 are instants and one Culling Ritual, which does fit very nicely to ramp into something big and doesn't hurt my deck, as there's only 11 Permanents with cmc 2 or less in my deck, with all of those being dorks or mana rocks.
My favourite piece of removal in the deck is Necron Deathmark. Its a flash creature, which means i can cast it during combat to block a creature, destroy another one with the etb and mill myself, because i have a large reanimator subtheme.
My biggest question is, how can i convince the other people in my group to run more removal, because while currently almost all decks we play are battlecruiser decks that can theoretically play against each other without much in the removal department, I want to be able to play other archetypes (i.e. a combo deck, or maybe even a stax-ish deck) without having the parallel world problem, where either they hit me often enough so I die or I combo fast enough so I win, with the sole determinant of which outcome happens being who drew the fastest start.
The current arguments were that
'I try to raise the power level'
'So we have to change all previous decks to be able to compete with the new generation of decks?'
Any ideas on how you got your groups to include more removal?
P.S. No, looking for a different group is not an option :)
I really love the way you share the experience you've learnt during your deck building in a nice approachable way where people can understand the decisions behind it and not just I've added this card.
After watching multiple of your videos I think of your opinion really highly and was wondering if you could help me out. I am looking for a very specific play experience. I want to build a casual toolbox-like commander where it can find answers for multiple situations but doesn't finish through combat damage or an infite combo but doesn't keep the game too long and opressive to play against. Would you have any suggestions how to achieve this ir maybe some commander suggestions?
i have difficulty building a queza wheel deck of mine, could you maybe have some tips on how to build a deck like that?
A timely Access Denied has won me games with my Magnus the Red deck.
Thanks for another theory video to put into practice.
counterpoint: running hexproofing instants and making people scoop makes me laugh
Wait people don't like running removal?
I pack my decks so full of removal i feel so safe every turn
My group use a lot of pure removal (mostly because at least three of us are/used to be Modern players).
I really like cards with several uses. Even if not always great, and usually pretty expensive for what they do. The Charms are pretty nice. Especially Abzan Charm. Card draw and removal in one card? What's not to like!
Great video as usual.
my biggest issue with 1for1 removal isn't the opportunity cost of the deck space, it's the card disadvantage of actually casting the removal spell. Especially as games go longer and more and more threats are interacted with, the greedy players who let others use their removal often come out ahead.
How early are you spending your removal compared to the rest of the table?
Are you killing on summon, or waiting for it to threaten you?
One of my favorate removal spells is ligting axe, not only does it remove most creatures it lets you do discard shenanagans at the same time