Dr. Cooper: could you , at some point, please cover the issue (mentioned around 21:00) of what the Jews (and, of course, the disciples) _thought_ the Messiah should be, the Messianic expectations? I've read bits and pieces, but never a good treatment of the issue.
One of the reasons C.S. Lewis hits the "True Myth" note so often is, if you look at his essays, you'll find he's interacting directly with Bultman etc and their disciples in his vocation as Renaissance Lit Professor and local famous convert to Christianity.
@@jameswillison1527 Offhand, I'd say "The Screwtape Letters" and "The Great Divorce". Both have theologians that look at theology as a purely intellectual exercise, independent of history.
If you're really interested in Jesus in His historical context, I highly recommend the books of Kenneth E. Bailey, especially "Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes - Cultural Studies in the Gospels" . Bailey spent several decades teaching in the Middle East and was intimately familiar with their culture and ways of thought. His books (although I argue with his interpretation of Paul) offer much insight into why certain things were done in the Gospels, reasons that were so obvious to the Gospel writers that they didn't bother to write them down.
Dr. Cooper: could you possibly do a show sometime on how one gets from people like Bultmann and Schweitzer to the Charismatic / Pentecostal movement or the Prosperity Gospel churches? How did theory get translated into action?
What you said about the loaves and the fishes, got me thinking about what I heard from a liberal pastor before. He say that when Jesus walked on water, He was walking on some sand in the water, and only appeared to have walked on water.
If you ask Pageau, the way we approach history itself (let alone Jesus' story) took a wrong turn at the rationalist shift. The anti-supernatural (anti-"superstition") bias began to divide "actual history" from "mythic history." Part of this began at the Renaissance/Reformation, of course.
Karl Barth´s theology is very easy to summarize. He did it himself in little under 30 seconds: "Jesus loves me, this I know, cuz the Bible tells me so". 😀
@@magpiecity If he knew it, why wasn't that visible in his life? Recall him as a rather selfish and domineering character. Especially painful was how he treated his wife, which I found cruel.
Barth was expelled from Nazi Germany and was removed from his professorship for his outspoken view of Hitler's regime. His poor wife had to find safe haven with her husband in Switzerland, where she helped raise at least two sons who follow ed their father in Biblical scholarship and theology. Barth was the author of the Barmen Declaration, which opposed Hitler's regime as idolatrous. He had a strong influence on Bonhoeffer and The Confessing Church. Barth was not a holy roller but a sinner who proclaimed God's grace.
Reconstructing Jesus via humane historiography is a bad substitute for knowing him via the Holy Spirit. But that may exactly be the problem with 'Neo-Orthodoxy' and later day theology. Access to the Holy Spirit isn't there.
On the other hand, Jesus _is_ a historical figure. As 'Testify" covers in _his_ TH-cam channel, (th-cam.com/play/PLbVf0T8-zFVhvQKOcYzK_57dYUr20lHWB.html) the Gospels and Acts are quite accurate historically. Understanding Him outside of history simply doesn't work.
@@josephpchajek2685 Got it, no astrology in the Bible. Never mind the Zoroastrian Magi and the Zodiacs across ancient churches. Jesus turning water into wine has no parallels in mythology. Jonah and the whale isn't ridiculous but "the music of the spheres" is absurd. Thank you for enlightening me.
@@josephpchajek2685 O, Daniel, the book written after the Persians freed the Hebrews from Babylon...when the Jews called the Aryan King Cyrus "a messiah" and they synthesized Zoroastrianism with the worship of the genocidal Caananite storm god Yahweh. Ancient synagogues also feature zodiacs. The bible is a book. Carry on.
@@josephpchajek2685 "Just the facts mam." Arrogant? Clean your mirror or "take the plank from your own eye." God is real and much bigger than any book or sect. That said, if an unquestionable orthodoxy comforts you and keeps you in check then carry on. There is one truth, the bible has some of it, from various traditions but it asks me to lie and that is against the "true religion" in every human soul.
Joe PC... You're changing the subject Pilgrim. I can't say I blame you. You're out of your depth, my friend. I agree that you don't need a natal chart to sense "the music of the spheres." You also don't need the Bible or the Avesta to sense the God of nature, the cosmos and us all. With all due respect, you have a totalitarian approach. You say I must believe in Jonah and the Whale, the genocidal Caananite storm god, Yahweh, that people can be turned to salt if they look back while leaving town, that Jesus not only existed but that he turned water to wine, ala his predecessor in this party trick, Dionysus, that he drove demons into swine, withered fig trees for no reason and that he came back from the dead but only for a while saying he'd be back but couldn't say when. You also say I must ignore the bit about the Magi who followed a star and the other bits about common astrological observance in the ancient world or that there is any divinity outside of your compilation of books. I rebuke you, "not today, Satan." The belief in heaven and hell, "the devil", devils, some actually named in both traditions, and angels, a savior, the apocalypse, the resurrection of the dead and more all comes from the earlier monotheistic religion, of the ancient Persians and "Aryans", Zoroastrianism. Judiasm and Christianity are largely spinoffs of Zoroastrianism, with some Caananite tradition, Egyptian, Mesopotamian and Greek influences thrown in, just as Mormons and Muslims are also spinoffs of "Abrahamic" traditions. In the same way Buddhism is a spinoff of Hinduism and Hinduism actually spins off of the same Indo European roots as Zoroastrianism and the Greeks, Norse, Celts, etc. It's a small world after all. Hope you had a good Yule, by the way. Zoroastrians have some weird practices too, especially for the adherents of the in club, but on the whole it's a bit simpler, less dogmatic and less fear based. They actually believe you too can live a good life and even get to heaven even if you're a "Christian." They also believe in ultimate redemption even for the sinners too but that's another story for another day. (I do have to get to work, compadre, and your not telling me anything novel.) At it's best religion and good religious guides can lead us to "true religion", the ultimate reality of the God of nature and us all. At it's worst, religion can get in the way and be not a path to divinity but a path to egoism, fanaticism and totalitarianism, just like atheism, ironically. I'm sorry you did some woo woo yoga thing, that does sound gay. That comment was unnecessary wasn't it? I'm still fighting against "Angra Mainyu" myself, as we all are everyday. Just as Zarathustra was tempted by the devil in the wilderness, with an evil power of the whole earth, but rebuked him, just like Jesus would again much later, so too can you and I turn from bullshit, lies and true evil and choose the good and the true. "The sun and stars that float in the open air, The apple-shaped earth and we upon it, surely the drift of them is something grand... what have you reckoned for them comradeo?" "Think good thoughts, speak good words and do good deeds." Shalom, compadre. Vaya Con Dios.
hope you’ll offer a formal presentation and critique of Richard Rohr and his “christology”. feel it’s so needed.
I agree. I was in a Bible study group that wanted to read one his books and I was appalled. Nearly every page seemed heretical.
Lol, Trent Horn sure likes using your stunning beard in his thumbnails lately. What’d you do to piss the Papist off? Good episode btw
Been waiting for you to go over Schweitzer for the longest time! My grandfather read a lot of his books and I’ve inherited them
Dr. Cooper: could you , at some point, please cover the issue (mentioned around 21:00) of what the Jews (and, of course, the disciples) _thought_ the Messiah should be, the Messianic expectations? I've read bits and pieces, but never a good treatment of the issue.
if you find a good treatment you should shoot me info about it
One of the reasons C.S. Lewis hits the "True Myth" note so often is, if you look at his essays, you'll find he's interacting directly with Bultman etc and their disciples in his vocation as Renaissance Lit Professor and local famous convert to Christianity.
@@jameswillison1527 Offhand, I'd say "The Screwtape Letters" and "The Great Divorce". Both have theologians that look at theology as a purely intellectual exercise, independent of history.
If you're really interested in Jesus in His historical context, I highly recommend the books of Kenneth E. Bailey, especially "Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes - Cultural Studies in the Gospels" . Bailey spent several decades teaching in the Middle East and was intimately familiar with their culture and ways of thought. His books (although I argue with his interpretation of Paul) offer much insight into why certain things were done in the Gospels, reasons that were so obvious to the Gospel writers that they didn't bother to write them down.
Dr. Cooper: could you possibly do a show sometime on how one gets from people like Bultmann and Schweitzer to the Charismatic / Pentecostal movement or the Prosperity Gospel churches? How did theory get translated into action?
What you said about the loaves and the fishes, got me thinking about what I heard from a liberal pastor before. He say that when Jesus walked on water, He was walking on some sand in the water, and only appeared to have walked on water.
If you ask Pageau, the way we approach history itself (let alone Jesus' story) took a wrong turn at the rationalist shift. The anti-supernatural (anti-"superstition") bias began to divide "actual history" from "mythic history."
Part of this began at the Renaissance/Reformation, of course.
Can you give a direct link to the book you referenced on the ties between Greek mythology and the Christian myth?
33:45 yes, Dr. Cooper, we geoplanists are alive and well. (Flat-earther’s a pejorative term btw. How would you feel if I called you an “earth-baller”)
I would not care in the slightest.
Lutheran is a pejorative term too, even if Luther himself wasn't an earth-baller (I like that, earth-baller, sounds better than the Latin)
That was a lot to digest, but very satisfying.
Your critique of Protestant liberalism is right on point.😊
I’ve never heard anyone cast doubts upon Barth’s affirmation of the Resurrection 🤷♂️
10:37 this sounds like a middle-school kid's attempt to rationalize a supernatural event after 6 years of learning Newtonian physics😅
Karl Barth´s theology is very easy to summarize. He did it himself in little under 30 seconds: "Jesus loves me, this I know, cuz the Bible tells me so". 😀
He said that when/where? Recall him a little different on this.
@@metapolitikgedanken612 He was asked to summarize his multi-volume work on Christian dogmatics in one sentence.
@@magpiecity If he knew it, why wasn't that visible in his life? Recall him as a rather selfish and domineering character. Especially painful was how he treated his wife, which I found cruel.
Barth was expelled from Nazi Germany and was removed from his professorship for his outspoken view of Hitler's regime. His poor wife had to find safe haven with her husband in Switzerland, where she helped raise at least two sons who follow ed their father in Biblical scholarship and theology. Barth was the author of the Barmen Declaration, which opposed Hitler's regime as idolatrous. He had a strong influence on Bonhoeffer and The Confessing Church. Barth was not a holy roller but a sinner who proclaimed God's grace.
Reconstructing Jesus via humane historiography is a bad substitute for knowing him via the Holy Spirit.
But that may exactly be the problem with 'Neo-Orthodoxy' and later day theology. Access to the Holy Spirit isn't there.
On the other hand, Jesus _is_ a historical figure. As 'Testify" covers in _his_ TH-cam channel, (th-cam.com/play/PLbVf0T8-zFVhvQKOcYzK_57dYUr20lHWB.html) the Gospels and Acts are quite accurate historically. Understanding Him outside of history simply doesn't work.
Wrede is pronounced 'V-Ray-Da' in the Ivory Towers. Like Karl Barth is Karl Bart.
Wrede and Barth have no letters in common, it's really not that alike.
Neither are pronounced as they are spelled.
Jesus was a Capricorn.
@@josephpchajek2685 Got it, no astrology in the Bible. Never mind the Zoroastrian Magi and the Zodiacs across ancient churches. Jesus turning water into wine has no parallels in mythology. Jonah and the whale isn't ridiculous but "the music of the spheres" is absurd. Thank you for enlightening me.
@@josephpchajek2685I was just a reference to this song by the way. Vaya Con Dios. th-cam.com/video/yCdfYkUPvTs/w-d-xo.html
@@josephpchajek2685 O, Daniel, the book written after the Persians freed the Hebrews from Babylon...when the Jews called the Aryan King Cyrus "a messiah" and they synthesized Zoroastrianism with the worship of the genocidal Caananite storm god Yahweh. Ancient synagogues also feature zodiacs. The bible is a book. Carry on.
@@josephpchajek2685 "Just the facts mam."
Arrogant? Clean your mirror or "take the plank from your own eye."
God is real and much bigger than any book or sect. That said, if an unquestionable orthodoxy comforts you and keeps you in check then carry on. There is one truth, the bible has some of it, from various traditions but it asks me to lie and that is against the "true religion" in every human soul.
Joe PC... You're changing the subject Pilgrim. I can't say I blame you. You're out of your depth, my friend.
I agree that you don't need a natal chart to sense "the music of the spheres." You also don't need the Bible or the Avesta to sense the God of nature, the cosmos and us all.
With all due respect, you have a totalitarian approach. You say I must believe in Jonah and the Whale, the genocidal Caananite storm god, Yahweh, that people can be turned to salt if they look back while leaving town, that Jesus not only existed but that he turned water to wine, ala his predecessor in this party trick, Dionysus, that he drove demons into swine, withered fig trees for no reason and that he came back from the dead but only for a while saying he'd be back but couldn't say when. You also say I must ignore the bit about the Magi who followed a star and the other bits about common astrological observance in the ancient world or that there is any divinity outside of your compilation of books. I rebuke you, "not today, Satan."
The belief in heaven and hell, "the devil", devils, some actually named in both traditions, and angels, a savior, the apocalypse, the resurrection of the dead and more all comes from the earlier monotheistic religion, of the ancient Persians and "Aryans", Zoroastrianism. Judiasm and Christianity are largely spinoffs of Zoroastrianism, with some Caananite tradition, Egyptian, Mesopotamian and Greek influences thrown in, just as Mormons and Muslims are also spinoffs of "Abrahamic" traditions. In the same way Buddhism is a spinoff of Hinduism and Hinduism actually spins off of the same Indo European roots as Zoroastrianism and the Greeks, Norse, Celts, etc. It's a small world after all. Hope you had a good Yule, by the way.
Zoroastrians have some weird practices too, especially for the adherents of the in club, but on the whole it's a bit simpler, less dogmatic and less fear based. They actually believe you too can live a good life and even get to heaven even if you're a "Christian." They also believe in ultimate redemption even for the sinners too but that's another story for another day. (I do have to get to work, compadre, and your not telling me anything novel.)
At it's best religion and good religious guides can lead us to "true religion", the ultimate reality of the God of nature and us all. At it's worst, religion can get in the way and be not a path to divinity but a path to egoism, fanaticism and totalitarianism, just like atheism, ironically.
I'm sorry you did some woo woo yoga thing, that does sound gay. That comment was unnecessary wasn't it? I'm still fighting against "Angra Mainyu" myself, as we all are everyday. Just as Zarathustra was tempted by the devil in the wilderness, with an evil power of the whole earth, but rebuked him, just like Jesus would again much later, so too can you and I turn from bullshit, lies and true evil and choose the good and the true.
"The sun and stars that float in the open air,
The apple-shaped earth and we upon it, surely the drift of them
is something grand...
what have you reckoned for them comradeo?"
"Think good thoughts, speak good words and do good deeds."
Shalom, compadre. Vaya Con Dios.