How China Turned the Desert Green (and why it went wrong)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 พ.ค. 2024
- The Great Green Wall of China is the largest afforestation project in the world with over 66 billion trees planted in an effort to combat the expansion of the Gobi Desert, but it’s not all black and white. Regardless of intention, when done improperly projects like this can have a devastating impact on local ecosystems, and at this scale it’s safe to say that success or failure will have global consequences.
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⏱️TIMESTAMPS⏱️
0:00 Intro
0:25 Why it started
0:51 The plan
1:17 The Problems
3:12 Assisted Natural Regeneration
4:00 Desert Ecosystems
5:13 A Change of Approach
ABOUT THIS VIDEO
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China has been fighting against desertification since at least the 1950s after a long period of unsustainable growth. 27% of the country is covered by deserts, and in the year 2000 the Gobi Desert was estimated to be expanding at a rate of 10,400 square km a year. With farmland rapidly becoming desert and an ever-growing population, it was clear that a future famine was inevitable unless immediate action was taken.
So in 1978 the Chinese government drew up a plan. A wall of trees, around 4500 kilometres long, built to block the expansion of the desert, shield against sandstorms and offset the country’s carbon emissions.
Was it a good idea? Let us know in the comments below!
#GreatGreenWall
Hopefully the reports coming out of China are correct and they've changed their approach, planting monocultures for the sake of logging gives the illusion of doing the right thing while only worsening the problems facing our planet. They do still need the wood for construction, and it's admittedly a really tough balance to strike, but if they put in enough thought and care I'm sure they can do it right!
I think you explained this really well Tom. Very nuanced video! Lets hope China does change their approach in a meaningful way.
I guess this another attempt to turn a good thing in china into a bad thing. The important thing is the desertland is not a desert anymore. The hard part is already done, turning desert sand into soil, so much easier to plant other trees/plants.
@@rap3208 No, this is an attempt at a balanced, unbiased look at a topic that few people were taking a level-headed approach to. Like any nation, China makes mistakes. Mistakes are an opportunity to learn, which is why they need to be talked about.
They've changed up their approach in recent years, which is why we talk about and commend them for that towards the end, but taking lessons from early mistakes is important for moving forward and not repeating them in other projects.
The fact that we've been accused of Chinese propaganda and Anti-Chinese propaganda alike is ridiculous, and I assure you we couldn't care less about whatever geopolitics come with this topic. I mean come on, most of the quoted statistics and negatives in this video came directly from Chinese scientists and the Chinese Academy of Forestry. Like those academics, we just want to do our part to reverse the damage done to the world by humanity and restore what nature we can.
种树是真的，但也犯过错误。比如，种下的树太单一，且易燃，我们得多一些品种，草原中有矿厂，这些地方生态环境脆弱，他们还违反法律规定，政府部门打击了一些。因为金钱总有漏网之鱼，这是我但心的。
This website used 20 years old report for self-promotion... 20 years in China is like 50 years elsewhere
I remember a video about what happened at yellowstone national park when they relocated all the wolves.
The deer no longer had to keep moving to avoid predators and just sat by the river eating all the grass, this ending up leaving no structure in the ground and caused massive erosion from the river.
Just goes to show everything is linked.
Yes, indeed, the ecosystems find a balance. If you remove something, that might break the balance, for better or for worse.
@@EnchWraits Same goes with altering natural landscapes on this planets. Replacing a desert with trees is not the best solution. Our problem is humans are killing species off at a rate faster than ever now while our population has exploded in a short time and continues to grow. That balance is tipping over.
It's almost as if... the hubris of man is the greatest destructor of all
im kinda confused now
isnt the big problem of wolf gone more deer ecological cascades that the desr eat all the plants *except* grass, which causes the area to become a grassland?
@@Hayyyward Thanks God putin start the War. Just need China, USA, Nato to join the game.
For earth better future right?
Just want to say as a Chinese who live in the northern area, I still remember how often the sand storms were 15 yrs ago when it came, sky turned yellow and wind filled with sand, I had difficulty walking to school. But now, we hardly have any sand storms anymore. Stopping deforestation is only the first step, rebuilding the whole ecosystem would be the eventual goal, but given China is still a developing country and lacks a lot of resources when these trees were planted. But I believe we will eventually make it.
Exactly!
Hmmmmmmmmmmm
You're sus
Wow that's amazing 👏
All thanks to the ingenuity of the Chinaese and the amazing bearoucratic powers of the CCP 🇨🇳
At least China is trying something, far too many Western countries are doing fuck all except arguing about what the “perfect” solution should be.
Should you even be on TH-cam if you're chinese ?
One thing i like about China is, every desert front is testing out different techniques, and when it fails they study it and learn from the mistakes, with all these failures, the successes they are getting from the program is astounding, keep up the hard work!
wow that sure are complex strategies
What the actual fuck? That's absolutely not what has happened.
@@AndrewLale 就是试种全世界各种植物，用最高成活率的几种或几十种来绿化，而不是单一品种。当成林后再砍一部分移种本土植物和上一轮没有成活的植物，看能不能在这一环境下存活。到时植物多样性才算基本完成
I'm surprised and really happy to see that they as a country at least are trying to do something about deforestation. They may not be getting it right but these things usually takes time, effort and a lot of adjustments. It's a step forward in the right direction and I wish more countries would be willing to take this step. A baby first step is never perfect ❤️
Why is that better than just not deforestating them?
Now they just need to take a step in stopping their genocide of minorities, like dismantling the concentration camps.
Such environmental issues are also in Chinese textbooks . We been educated to respect the nature by telling the story of what happened if you killed too many wolves at the age about 9. When the new generation of Chinese people started to play a bigger role in the society,I believe the environmental protection will be great here in China ❤
Not only in China,but in Thailand,Saudi Arabia,India and some of the African counties too do the same to tackle the issues related to deforestation by planting lot of trees..
@I am Fighterman Are they really arrogant just for being hopeful and wanting make a change. Will it help in the grand scheme of things. Nope. Humans destroy faster than we restore because majority are ignorant. They think it's not there problem that the world is dying. It's the future generations who will suffer right. But it affects everyone. One person can't make a change but can you imagine if everyone starts trying to make a change. One mosquito don't even take a drop of blood from you because of how small they are. A swam of mosquitoes can drink a cow until not even a droplet of blood is left. The more people who are aware and try to do better for mother earth, the less earth get destroyed. So many species of animals and plants are rapidly getting extinct due to human irresponsible ways. Many know of this problem, a few want to help but rarely anyone really do.
Although now its obvious that a giant monoculture is bad, i imagine the science wasn't as fully proven back when the plan was first created, and the fast growth was more important since the desert expansion back then was faster. It is good to see them adjusting their approach. Luckily in places like africa, they are pushing forward with native species
Absolutely, the main purpose for this video was to relay the lessons from their early mistakes rather than condemn them for it, everything is clearer in retrospect after all. Balancing the needs of nature and China's population is an incredibly complex problem, just like it is worldwide, but recent reports seem to suggest they're closer to striking that balance now. The important thing from here is for other projects to take these past lessons into account and start off stronger! - Tom
yeah, many projects were undertaken by individuals or groups of regular people who may not necessarily have the access to research, resources, or other necessary means of engineering a biologically effective forest from literally nothing. The efforts could only be described by "heroic" yet we need the involvement of the entire society to make the change significant and long lasting
We've come a long way with tree planting science and your comment is spot on. Japan actually did the same thing and most of the newly planted Japanese forestry is monoculture. But I'm sure both China and Japan will come up with a way to address this issue.
Probably ideology and logistics rather than science: foresters, agriculturalists, and botanists have understood woodland health for many decades, but this is the same nation that decided to kill all the field sparrows and ended up with locusts rather than reduced grain loss.
been known for decades
I once spent 5 years in Xi'an, Shaanxi province during college years and I volunteered several times in Maowusu desert in Yulin, in the northwest of China to plant trees 🌿. I could tell you that what you said about diverting rivers to desert for tree planting is the only way we deal with desertification is totally false.
We adapt the mingle forest planting techniques to tackle the desertification, which means there is a mixture of phycophyta plants, frutex plants and trees in the desert, not just trees. The order of planting these vegetations is carefully selected.
You should know that the desert climate means that the water will be very quickly vaporized, so without soil to retain water, the plants, especially trees can't get enough water and will eventually die. So you can't just bluntly planting trees in the desert. Even if you drag an iceberg in the desert they will still die. So the first priority is to modify the desert and gives it the ability to retain water.
The first step would be to put straws in the desert and weave these straws into little checkboxes and fixate these checkboxes in the sand to form a layout of chessboard. These chessboards of straws would help lock down the sands. Then the workers choose from phycophyta plants (e.g. algae), or herbaceous plants (e.g. grass) as per the environment of the desert to plant in these straw checkboxes. When these plants start to stretch their roots in the sand, the water will start to be retained under the surface of the sand. Then the frutex plants (e.g. Sea Buckthorn) could be planted in order to hold more water in a deeper level. At this point, we only have people carry tanks of water into the desert and water these plants every now and then. Because these plants need very minimum amount of water to survive.
When these vegetations thrive and cover the whole desert, there will be a significant improvement in the circulation of water vapor. Thanks to a beign circulation of moisture, the sands could retain more and more water for trees to be planted. The type of trees should also be carefully selected, we can't use those who consume a lot of water, euphrates poplar is the best choice, as it is a indigenous plant in barren lands such as Gobi Desert in China. So the combination of phycophyta, herbaceous, frutex plants and trees will change the ecosystem of the desert gradually, and more trees could be planted to form an oasis. The irrigation relies on the water vapor circulation, water tanks or drainages. When the oasis is stable, we can get the rivers in to irrigate all vegetations, including fruit trees or other cash crops cultivated in the area.
Last but not least, whether it is a propaganda or not, we Chinese succeeded in modifying the deserts. The deserts used to expand 3436km2 per year and now the deserts have retreated 1980km2 per year, which is truly beneficial for the people. There are many research institutes established in the cities near the deserts to study desertification also. This victory belongs to workers, scientists and ordinary citizens who have contributed in this mega project.
This is a scientific fact that China has succeed in anti-desertification, and there is no room for unwarranted accusation since you know nothing about our methods.
Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for providing information.
It makes you wonder how a TH-camr got ahold of the information about China's de-desertification efforts at the first place, without actually having set foot in the area, or talking to people who were involved. Of course, the TH-camr being a Brit, has to highlight the fault, instead of the progress. Typical...
There is always a BUT when it comes to good things in China in western media. Such closed-mindedness and double-standard.
Great insights. Thank you 🙏
Have you ever been in China, especially Northwest China? In 1980s and 1990s, I experienced much more and devorstated sand storms in Spring season of each year. After year 2000, I went to Southern China till the year 2008. In the year of the Olympic Game in Beijing, I came to Beijing and lived there since then. I could barely experience sand storms, which made me curious of the reason of this comparison.
Until 2013, I had the opportunity to go back to Northwest by car, and during that 1,200 kilometers drive, I saw the green mountains and plain fields that not exsisted twenty years earlier. This is why I have very different opinion toward this video.
I understand the science matter it included, but if you can also experience the gradually disappear of a desert which I had visited almost every year during Spring tour, you will definitely abstract what you just told.
As a Chinese, I tell you Don't explain anything. These videos are sponsored by Western organizations. If a media is related to politics, you can't get 100% facts from the media. For example, this video implies 15% is very low for the survival rate of the trees. Is it unacceptable? I don't know.
the whole point of the monoculture growth was actually to quickly stop the expansion of the desert while simoultaneously restoring the soil for my diverse plants including native ones. the seemingly random update in policy is actually according to the greater plan of reforestation as a whole. We know this already from european projects like in germany where they plant vast monoculture swaths of pine trees to restore the soil, (such as reducing acidity from historic farming and industry); and then they cut them down for wood and plant more diverse species in the process (like birch, beech, oaks, sycamore, etc)
Don't try, people only want to bash on China, if the title didn't specify why it went wrong, nobody would have watch.
Sad world
Yhey had a go now they are still trying to get it right. We will not change the world with just one system as someone said it needs a whole ecosystem to regain the balance.
Shh, don't spoil their fun. Things must happen like Elsa building her ice castle, everything must be done simultaneously and completed in one go. What are you talking about monoculture is necessary? What dyou mean it's step by step? Reforestation of desert of course happens in a snap of fingers, if not 2 snaps of fingers. 😎
Um, not to point out a flaw in your logic. Germany replanted on land that was not a desert….
@@kairoslo6031 you do understand that comparing Germany replanting in farm land (not a desert) to justify China planting on an actual desert is not an example of China being smart. Maybe if they had similar examples, people wouldn’t be saying it was wrong.
I love the fact that China tried, learned from this, and tried again with the lessons they learned, while other nations on earth still haven’t tried the first time at such a scale. Say what you want about them but if there is a more effective solution to a problem, as soon as they learn of it they always take the chance to implement it.
There are other reasons why other countries dont try, unsuitable locations, already have its own native woodland, money... etc etc...
lol not really
Europe has seen bigger and healthier reforestation over the last 2 centuries
China just loves mass production dont they
@@Okxyd lies lmao. China turned an entire desert into a forest while mayos destroy forests every year
Hindsight is 20/20. If there was a similar achievement in the west, it would be lauded as the greatest green initiative ever.
I can imagine that
Even though it failed, if a western country was responsible, the rest of the western would do just as you said and celebrate it as “the greatest green initiative ever”, and tbeh would hand out humanitarian prizes like our hot cakes and spend a few momths giving speeches about how this is going to be the “foundation for future efforts in reforestation”
A western government agency might laud a scheme without pointing out ways in which it hadn't worked so well. But commentator after commentator is missing the point that Mossy Earth is most certainly not a Western government agency. Watch more of their videos and you'll see criticisms of the ways in which things were done here. Do they overdo that criticism? That's a matter of opinion, but they are certainly not "Western media bashing China while letting the West off"!!!!!
Sounds a lot like calling sour grape. Things can be improvised but the most important thing is to reforest the desert first, instead of just talking about it, like Mossy Earth or any Western countries.
Dead wood is an important part of a forest too. It creates a habitat for fungi which is very important for rebuilding soils long term, as well as supporting insect life. So we shouldn't see dead trees as a failure.
True as that is, the 'wrong' species of tree will host many fewer species of fungi and bacteria than native species, both in life and in death. Still a lot better than desert obviously.
The symbiosis of trees and fungi is super interesting and we're only just scratching the surface with the research done in recent years.
@@Deckzwabber Fungi are really underrated in general. In elementary school I learned that the trees are the reason that we can live on earth but we didn't learn that the fungi are the reason that the trees can live on earth.
Now I'm very glad when I see some spruce trees in the fall with a happy bunch of fly agaric fruiting below them.
The fungus. It's the fungus.
Not planting the correct species of native trees @rumade won't benefit the fungal ecosystem because every fungus is specific to the tree species it eats.... duh!!!
@@talleyphillippe-mclain2040 there are many cosmopolitan species of fungi that prosper in temperate and northern forests across the world
Your "duh" was rude and unnecessary
environmental engineering is so terribly difficult and so crucially important at the same time. hopefully in the next couple hundred years we would have learned enough from these attempts to understand how to more effectively improve our environment.
definitely stolen
I def see u in the light switch song cover video.
Report the comment and move on, its a bot
@@orionl7406 It has a point though🤔
@@commentmanilikemdansc8550 someone else had a point and then they stole it
I grew up in Chang Bai Mountain, close to the North Korean border. When I was a kid during the 90s, I remember pretty clearly all forest areas, including trees and animals were protected by criminal laws and enforced by the forestry bureau (they even have armed forces), you can't even spark a fire during the fall/winter season in those areas.
反中是政治正确，他们怎么都能挑出刺来。虚伪傲慢双标的西方人们
western always added last word : " and why it went wrong " . Good job
We in Scotland have had reforestation projects that "went wrong" too. China's is either the biggest such or second biggest (Africa's 'green wall') so unsurprisingly any going wrong was on a bigger scale than here. The question is, are lessons learnt and acted on. Hopefully they are.
For me the most relevant comparison is the baseline of doing nothing: Even planting monocultures that dont create new habitat seems better than letting the desert take over. There was only one argument why it could detremental. So overall it seems really worth the try with the goal to continuosly learn and improve upon it.
The opportunity costs are immense though. If you spend thousands of man hours and the associated money and ressources on a project that only doesn't entirely fail 15% of the time, it's a huge waste if you could instead do it in a way that pushes the success rate up to maybe 50% or even more.
@@dingus_doofus Hindsight is always 20/20.
@@dingus_doofus But the thing is: Doing this project with a success rate of 15% made the success rate of the second project increase.
The areas where monocultures were planted were not as habitable as they are now thank to this "failed project.
These trees that died provided shade and pulled water up from deep in the ground (where shrubs, bushes, and YOUNG TREES cannot reach). They are decomposing and providing nutrients to the surface level soil. The idea that the monoculture trees use a lot of water is half true, trees use a lot of water, BUT they also provide shade which prevents evaporation via the sun beaming on the land. The amount of water these trees use was severely exaggerated.
These monocultures helped set up the land to be more forgiving, and now the native trees that are planted will have a higher likelihood of setting root.
To use your example, it's basically a choice between doing Project 1 with a 30% success rate, or doing Project 2 with 15% success rate first to then raise Project 1's success to 50%+.
@@jadecoolness101 Hmm I see. Fair point! THen let's see how it progresses moving forward.
@@dingus_doofus plus as a environment major student，the process of stop desertification is always about soil not the survival rate of the trees we plant at first place，even the dead trees root will hold water，soil. which means there will be a much higher survival possibilities for future plants.
I get your point. But atleast they did something to fight dessertification and not just some talks/blabber about how to do environmental protection.
@mayte damage? Be objective, the desertification has stopped. Damage what further?
In this project i gently assume that monoculture trees are the most suitable selection to start this project, because they're good at restoring the soil and keeping the water.
In addition, this method has been proved to work in any places in Europe, first invented and tested in Germany.
Dead trees are NOT a bad thing at all, it provides a great environment for fungus to grow, which leads to more biodiversity. When the soil is ready, they will be inserting local vegetation and trees, which they are starting to do in recent years, as some guys said, to make the point clear, if they have started planting local vegetation from the beginning, those plants would have all died! Don't you see, it's hard to plant in sand lol.
Just do not believe everything YT sais, because everyone can be wrong, so does this youtuber. If this project hasn't ended as they've had planned to be, it doesn't means that this is failure, because we're just in the midle of the long run of environmental protection. So without saying who I am referring to (some stupid guy that made me very uncomfortable reading his comments), it is impossible to see great change in less than a decade, if your neurones are still working. You can't come up with the perfect solution when you are doing something that no country has done in the past in such a big scale. And EVERYONE THAT IS NOT DUMB AND BLIND AND THINKS THAT I AM CHINESE PROPAGANDA can clearly see that the situation is getting better and better, this great nation is learning from its mistakes and preparing itself for its next try.
At least this is much better than the countries that are criticizing and doing nothing, if China waited till their "perfect plan 100% success", the desertification would have became more uncontrollable.
Just saying that they wouldn't be able to come up with a better plan without China's tryouts and effort.
And just for some ppl that don't know, politics is war without bleeding, and med ia is a tool for the govnmt.
Just have your own thoughts,
and don't be manipulated by politicians.
It's wrong, not because of turning desert to green, but because it's China. 🤣
Those specific trees, according to the video, were unsustainable in those areas, and actually made the ground drier and prevented grasses and shrubs from groing. Now as my only source for this is this video, that's all I got to go on. It seems they made some big mistakes in the begining, but they are recogmizing and correcting those flaws
You can either see it as some kind of extremely intelligent plan ahead of it's time or as a bad decision that accidentally had consequences that are great for the future(or anything in between).
The important is that efforts are being made to help the planet.
You see, it doesn't matter what you say. It's wrong, it's evil, it's dumb, it's incompetent and it's low quality plain and simply because it's China.
No other reasoning, no other commentary.
China is doubleplusungood and they can't do anything right
"...first invented and tested in Germany." Ah the white man always claiming they invented things first. lol Is there any proof to your claim? Did you look at all civilization? How far back did you look? etc. lol
They'll work it out. China has proven to be very creative and adaptable. Miles ahead of New Zealand, where one exotic pine tree species is getting planted at an enormous scale, for 'carbon credits'.
I totally agree on almost everything you say, exept for one thing - it has been proved many times over, that forests actually help to impruve the water circulation in the area - they save and conserve water, allowing many other plants to profit from this. So yeah - trees don't "drink up all the water" - it's the other way around - they literally bring water even to the arid areas. But everything else is on point. Planting monocultures only is especially bad idea.
Hi! Thank you for your feedback. It is true that bringing back forests will generally increase water retention. However, when those forests are non-native monocultures that were grown without taking into account natural succession this can have the exact opposite effect and dry up the area even further.
Both of you are right.
Any topsoil creating forest helps to conserve water the high shade protecting fern and other undergrowth, and this second step keeps the topsoil moist and rotting.
Certain yellow grasses can do this all on their own under good circumstances. (Retain soil, retain moist +retain droppings= topsoil created)
But an forest that doesn't have any significant undergrowth won't be positive for the water level, lowering the water level up to meters, drying out the topsoil, which lessens rot(topsoil creation) and water retention capability, making it all worse.
Edit : didn't see you there, mossy earth
@@Redicule_research._ridiculous Yes, you are right. I should have taken into account those cases as well, but they kinda slipped out of my mind due to the fact that in my vicinity forests are largely of the first, topsoil creating variety, thats why i was kinda bewildered by the phrase that forests dry out the earth. 😅
@@MossyEarth Is that a problem moss could solve?
@@pluckybellhop66 It is something we can implement in our projects (although we do not try to plant trees in desertified areas), but at scale we are small fish in a big pond and we have no links in China. It does seem to be going better there now :)
I just appreciate someone is taking action, we can only learn from our mistakes, the data they’ve collected from this will help new organizations
Agreed!
that's what authoritarianism gets you, big steps, good and bad haha
@@dewinmoonl I guess it’s a double edged sword haha, but the way things are in the United States at the moment I would kind of prefer authoritarianism, too much arguing and finger pointing not enough action for the people
@@dewinmoonl As if America isn't authoritarian. If anything it's a schizophrenic authoritarianism that is incapable of long term projects like this.
American has the largest prison population in the world. It has the worst healthcare system in any even slightly comparable nation. How is getting cancer from our shitty food (that has been lobbied extensively to feed us), and subsequently going bankrupt and homeless from medical bills not authoritarian?
The thing with America is that we get to hide behind the free market. The free market is more authoritarian than Xi could dream of, and the best thing about it is that it completely obfuscates responsibility of any individual, or even system of governance. We take it for granted that a medical emergency can bankrupt you. Ask the average Chinese citizen, they'll tell you that's authoritarian.
This, of course is not even mentioning the authoritarianism that American exports throughout the world. America helped the Indonesian government genocide and "disappear" 2 million Indonesian communists in the 70s. The wars in the middle east have resulted in near a million deaths. We carpet bombed Korea destroying all their infrastructure and killing 10-20% of their population. We killed ~2 million Vietnamese civilians. We are currently embargoing Afghanistan, allowing thousands and soon much more to die from starvation. I can go on.
How is that not authoritarian? Take off your blinders.
@@ayoitsyayo “I would prefer the great leader to line the his pockets at the expense of my rights because keeping up with politics of a democracy us too hard for me"
Congratulations! Please don't stop from planting more trees and turning deserts into forests. DON'T GIVE UP! Never give up!
This "failure" will at least give some data that can be used to improve their future attempts, beats doing nothing which results in nothing
Wait!
I think the plan was always:
- grow fast growing and dry resistant plants to stop desertification
-> slowly introduce less and less dry resistant plants into the mix
-> keep this up until native plants can grow again/plant them again
-> success
Nope, since the big 3 were planted are used mostly for logging.
Also, those big 3 drain water like a campus chad on a weekend with beer.
@@MalekitGJ most of the water absorbed by the tree goes to its leaf so he was correct. Monoculture was used to plant trees that will be felled after decades but this trees nurture the land. Trees don't magically absorb water into abyss. They are a vessel to avoid evaporation of water. Thats how rainforest was made.
@@markeubertnoblezada5525 "after decades", make it ONE decade or less.
Also, monoculture of fast growing trees tend to kill every plant that is water dependant.
BTW, dude, do you even rainforest? did those zones had enough rainwater drop for humidity to stay high? how much of the time those zones are bathered by the sun? it is close to the ecuator? or does it have a chain of mountains trapping clouds to make it more rainy?
the plan was and always will be: grow fast growing and dry resistant plants to get promotion for the officers
It's really hard to know what's really going on, China lies a lot, but Western media likes to exaggerate China problems a lot, depending on who you follow China is paradise or North Korea
there are a lot of reasons
1. science of ecology and whatnot wasn't as complete as what we have today, but the project started, as you said, in the 70s or 50s even.
2. any forest is better than no forest when the biggest threat is desertification of arable land, when you need to feed 500 million - 1.4 billion people.
3. sandstorms are annoy af. i live near the loess plateau and oh boy, has the sandstorm situation become a lot better in the last 30 years.
4. money was by far the biggest issue china had. it was one of the poorest countries in the world when the project started, so, cheap, quick fixes when budget was tight is what they went for
5. absolutely, as a bio major i agree that retaining the natural, original habitat, and slowly terraform with plenty of research backings is the best way to go. from what i've seen in the last few years around the loess plateau and eastern china, there is definitely STILL a lot of monoculture planting of nonnative trees, but there is also an increase of planting native species and introducing native animals as well. after all, the country needs to feed and satisfy 1.4 billion people, and quick fixes for the poorest, more ignorant times can no longer work in the current circumstance.
Thank you for presenting such a balanced piece of feedback for us. We really appreciate it! We wish other people in this comment sections would be more like you :) - Cheers, Duarte
Any forest is better than no forest!
@@MossyEarth you do realise it takes people a bio major or with equivalent knowledge plus the local knowledge to understand the situation. therefore I would suggest you in the future the video should be more balanced. Becuse this video to me is a little discediting the hard work of the green wall of China.
@@REALSTEELBRO couldn't agree more, bruh.
@@REALSTEELBRO true. Sounded like bashing more than informing. But, hey, how can we talk about China and NOT bash it, right??? (sarcasm)
Even the wrong trees fast growing and die fast than native trees. They still add nutrients on top of the sand and provide additional soil for newer growing plants. Additionally, the trees growing with the additional soil provided shield from the sun ray from heating the rocks and sand on the surface of the Earth. You should focus more on greening the Mohave desert so that the heat around the area doesn't dry up the Colorado river.
I appreciate them actually doing something in the first place. Often when large scale projects like this are planned it's just talking and more talking and nothing more happens. We're really good at talking and not actually doing anything nowadays. It's not just about our climate, forests, animals but us people to and how we interact with each other and deal with problems. Instead of fixing a problem we just talk about it and somehow that makes us "feel" good like we're doing something but nothing really happens. It's not denying that we humans have a massively negative impact on this planet and the way we're going is not sustainable by any stretch of the imagination. When things do collapse(our society) it's going to be a bad time for everyone involved.
That's the problem with democracy! Every interest group have assholes ...I mean opinions. :) Nothing gets done because of potential lawsuits.
It's incredible how complex rebuilding a forest can actually be. I read a whole book about basically being a forest engineer by Einrich Zürcher and how essential these ecosystems are for the planet. But how does this compare to other world efforts to prevent desertification or attempt reforestation? In Africa for example, where they're attempting to build a green belt to stop the Sahara? Are there any operations of such a scale in Europe or America? Or in the Amazon, fastest disappearing forest on Earth (I would imagine)?
Forests in Europe have been growing all over the place. Apparently about 10% in the last three decades. Sustainable forestry has a long tradition in Europe, at least since the second half of the 16th century. Finally there is hardly any desertification, and what little deserts there are don't really pose a threat to the overall environment. All in all, there's no need or potential for this kind of orchestrated megaproject.
As the other person before me said, European forests grow as a total surface. The problems faced there are the cuts of old forests, monoculture and the management of the younger forests. There are some improvements but there's still a lot of work. In some places, like the Eastern Rhodopes rewilding project, species like the bison, tarpan-like wild horses and red deer are reintroduced to actually REDUCE the reforestation.
The USA is estimated to have more trees now than it did when it was first founded as a country.
Here we have major industry reliant on a sustainable source of trees and it turns out mega corps have a vested interest in keeping forest around for profit.
In fact we have the opposite problem in the USA where plains, grasslands, and wetlands which used to dominate the country are dissappearing.
The only areas in the country that have issues with sustainable forrestry are ironically (and not so coincidently) the north of California where forrestry management is essentially not alowed thanks to the tree huggers in the 70s who didnt quite realise many trees purposefully desire to be burned down naturally (yes really) as a freshly burnt forest is ripe for new seedlings to grow.
The best thing you can do to preserve and older forest is to clear it constantly. Dead wood sitting in the forest is what allows such massive fires to happen in California.
The saharah is supposed to turn green again on its own in another 7000 years on a 20,000 year cycle
@@dingus_doofus tbf thats only after they'd all been cut down for thousands of years.
Considering that sand deserts have the least biodiversity of all biomes, I think China is doing the right thing. They made a large scale attempt, observed the results, and are adjusting their method pursuant to those results. The low quality trees are good for logging, which creates jobs. The dead trees will provide biomass for natural composting. The dead zones provide clear targets for native plantings.
Has any other country made such a large scale attempt?
Some country’s in Africa are
Japan - and Japan has the same issue with monoculture as China. Both countries are aware that monoculture trees are an issue so its safe to say that they're coming up with solutions.
@@darthmaul216 I hope African countries can work together towards this approach. Maybe more international funding is required to help African nations
BuT sOcIaLiSm AnD cOmMuNiSm SuCkS so I doNt CaRe
@@mrdllo1731 ngl I was expecting to see this kind of shitty anti-china stuff everywhere but surprisingly this comment section are relatively positive
Love this video lol. Was interested in the title and now Im more than impressed that this is a company for reforestation with so much knowledge it should literally have taken on this project and theyd be done by now.
This happened in my local area in Australia during the 80s when they were restoring creek banks. They planted fast growing pioneer species with a shallow root system and since they put little effort into establishing an undergrowth and larger, slower growing trees with larger root systems they ended up causing more erosion.
the planting of monoculture did help changing the landscape and because of that now it can sustain other type of plants.
yeah. this video is definitely missing out this part.
Not every plant can survive in a sand desert. things have to go step by step
@@rickr9435 100%, you could argue that biodiversity only exists because different plants find a niche in (what is initially at least) a monoculture - eg there is an ideal plant for a type of arid marginal environment, then there is an ideal plant for taking advantage of the beneficial climactic impact of that plant, then there is an ideal shade tolerant plant that takes advantage of the low competition forrest floor etc.
This is all precluded by the first monoculture, without this nothing else could exist.
You also have to realise that this is not a project out the goodness of the Chinese governments hearts, I presume they had to compulsory purchase order millions of hectares of land and I do not doubt they are looking for a system that can give them a return on their investment.
Yeah but this is China so everything they do must be bad and to say anything else is evil.
@@rickr9435 Yes but I think the video is saying leave the desert and enhance the deforested areas with biodiverse habitat.
@@kwoltekublai3337 Agreed, but I don't see the Chinese government caring about making a return on their investment. They aren't capitalist, and if they need money they just take it from the giant privatised companies, like they did with tencent.
I watched a film about the chinese green wall about 20 years ago. I was very impressed since it was the biggest green project on earth, and it still is.
I'm pretty sure they showed and said that they use local common vegetation and trees, not monocultures.
It's so intriguing and even startling to hear someone putting down so overwhelmingly something so positive as treeing and greening against desertification and sandstorm that I can't help wondering the hidden agenda behind it.
exactly
Glad to hear they're taking some lessons into account and planting more diverse native trees
suit up！！！
I wish desertification was talked about a lot more than it is. I understand it's a slow process but it feels like places such as southern Spain have a lot of potential for growth and co2 reduction, I have seen incredible rainfall, clouds and moisture during the evening/mornings but it all just washes away or burns up by mid day because of miles of barren land.
A few years ago we had a particularly wet winter/spring and the place was green like I'd never seen since buying our apartment. I could be misinformed but it sure feels like a missed opportunity.
Permaculture, things like swales should be taught in schools. Slow down water. It's really that easy. Slow water seeps into the ground, raising the underground water table that builds up over time. Then the native plants come and hold things in more and more and release precipitation and it rains. You still want water to flow but slowly.
Lol who cares about Spain.
We need to focus on places where poor minorities live, in Spain a farmer can just move to the city and find a job there, for a African farmer it is either farm, join the ISIS or die
@@CameronKiesser Local farmers use swales here in Southern Spain as part of their terracing of the hillsides. They know what to do to retain water, and use drip irrigation - unfortunately the local culture regards any plant that isn't profitable as a weed so farmers just spray weed-killer around their trees. They're also planting mango and avocado trees like crazy which need a lot of water, and increasingly ripping out almond and olive trees to do so.
when you realize when northern hemisphere is getting more green
does he know
Nitrogen fixtaing invasive plants with the use of masive herding is very useful to combat desertification first sturdy animals like goats and donkeys. Manure is great for the land.
Then you plant trees.
Not an expert, but if you compare the satellite images with 10, 20, 30 years ago you will see how successful the project is.
I think it's important how you define success. We also too often forget that tree lifespans are nothing like human.
Satellite images contain very little information and aren't good as the only source for a conclusion.
From what I can observe we don't have the same satellites...
@Yaming Liu - On the Loess plateau (all the videos are from 2008) but analysis of the photo satellites I don't call it a success : it's mainly agriculture, not forests, in small areas, abundantly watered. Very fragile: Once you stop the watering, it returns to its prime conditions.
I don't deny the HUGE effort of the population who didn't agree in the first place as I remembered. The farmers saw no gain in growing trees ('People don't eat trees!').
With a population growth from 400K to 1.2 million in this area, despite the government one-child policy except for the farmers (which has been loosen in 2013 but that was a good strategy), China is still facing a huge challenge as several old civilizations did.
_It just shows that with large financial and social investments, it is a real challenge for all of us :_ We're all living on the same big spaceship which is Earth, and we are not out of the woods. If we could only stop the (economic - military) wars and *_the idiotic maximizing-profits-system_* we would have greater ressources...
At a point we will have to SHARE (remember the fate of the Obama Care).
Edit: typos
Repent and follow Jesus my friend! Repenting doesn't mean confessing your sins to others, but to stop doing them altogether. Belief in Messiah alone is not enough to get you into heaven - Matthew 7:21-23, John 3:3, John 3:36 (ESV is the best translation for John 3:36). Contemplate how the Roman empire fulfilled the role of the beast from the sea in Revelation 13. Revelation 17 confirms that it is in fact Rome. From this we can conclude that A) Jesus is the Son of God and can predict the future or make it happen, B) The world leaders/nations/governments etc have been conspiring together for the last 3000+ years to accomplish the religion of the Israelites C) History as we know it is fake. You don't really need to speculate though because you can start a relationship with God and have proof. Call on the name of Jesus and pray for Him to intervene in your life. - Revelation 3:20
Revelation 6 1st Seal: White horse = Roman Empire conquering nations under Trajan 98-117 AD & Gospel spreading rapidly. 2nd Seal: Red horse, bloody civil wars with 32 different Emperors, most killed by the sword. 185-284 AD 3rd Seal: Black horse, economic despair from high taxes to pay for wars, farmers stopped growing. 200-250 AD 4th Seal: Pale horse, 1/4th of Romans died from famine, pestilence; at one point 5,000 dying per day. 250-300 AD 5th Seal: Diocletian persecuted Smyrna church era saints for ten years, blood crying out for vengeance. 303-312 AD 6th Seal: Political upheaval in the declining Roman Empire while the leaders battled each other. 313-395 AD
Revelation 7 Sealing of 144,000, the saints, before trumpet war judgments, which led to the fall of the Roman Empire.
Revelation 8 1st Trumpet: Alaric and the Goths attacked from the north, the path of hail, and set it on fire. 400-410 AD 2nd Trumpet: Genseric and the Vandals attacked the seas and coastlands, the blood of sailors in water. 425-470 AD 3rd Trumpet: Attila and the Huns scourged the Danube, Rhine & Po rivers area, dead bodies made water bitter. 451 AD 4th Trumpet: Odoacer and the Heruli caused the last Western Emperor (sun), Senate (moon) to lose power. 476 AD With the Western Roman Emperor (restrainer of 2 Thes. 2) removed; the son of perdition Popes took power.
Revelation 9 Two woe judgments against the central 1/3rd and eastern 1/3rd of the Roman Empire. 612-1453 AD 5th Trumpet: Locust & scorpions point to Arabia, the rise of the Muslim army. Islam hides Gospel from Arabs. 612-762 AD 6th Trumpet: Turks released to attack Constantinople with large cannons (fire, smoke, brimstone). 1062-1453 AD
Revelation 10 The little book is the printed Bible, which was needed after the Dark Ages when Scriptures were banned by Popes.
Revelation 11 7th Trumpet: Martin Luther measured Roman Church; found that it’s an apostate church, not part of true temple. The two witnesses are the Scriptures and saints who proclaim the pure Gospel and testify against the antichrist Popes. Papal Church pronounced Christendom dead in 1514 AD. Silence for 3.5 years. Then Luther posted his 95 Thesis, which sparked the Protestant Reformation and brought the witnesses back to life. Millions of Catholics were saved.
Revelation 12 Satan used the Roman Empire to try to wipe out the early Church, Satan was cast down as the Empire collapsed.
Revelation 13 The antichrist beast Popes reigned in power 1,260 years, 538-1798, is the little horn of Daniel 7, son of perdition. The false prophet Jesuit Superior General rose to power from land (earth) of Vatican and has created many deceptions.
Revelation 14 Points to great harvest during the Protestant Reformation & wrath on Catholic countries who obey antichrist Pope.
Revelation 15 Overcoming saints victorious over the beast. Prelude to 7 vials and judgment on those who support Papal Rome.
Revelation 16 1st Vial: The foul sore of atheism was poured out on Catholic France, leaving them with no hope, led to revolution. 2nd Vial: The French Revolution started in 1793, killed 250,000, as France had obeyed the Pope and killed saints. 3rd Vial: The French Revolution spread to rural areas of France, where Protestants had been killed in river areas. 4th Vial: The bloody Napoleonic wars shed the blood of countries who had revered and obeyed the antichrist Pope. 5th Vial: Judgment on the seat of the beast. Papal States invaded in 1798, Pope imprisoned, removed from power. 6th Vial: The Turks vast domain dried up, they were only left with Turkey. They lost control of Palestine in 1917 AD, Israel became a nation again in 1948
Nah, you guys still failed in their eyes cause whatever forest you guy manage to recreate it's not looking like rainforests in the textbooks 😂
These are the POSITIVE THINGS THAT HAPPEN ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
Amazing production quality, I bet you get plenty more subs real soon.
Monoculture is cheap and can cover the most area, there's no "going wrong" with it when you are literally fighting against the desert with nothing. In fact, spamming a monoculture, even if it fails, helps create favourable conditions for the second wave of greening. The problem with many scientists and activists is that they keep demanding for the optimal solutions with zero regards to the actual socio-economical and even geopolitical situation.
Lmao Winnie the Pooh millions dead.
@@AGuy-vq9qp Million dead in the US due to covid, based on what I read.
@@AGuy-vq9qp aaaand what does that have to do with the conversation?
@@foxtail286 Ignore the reddit troll.
@@AGuy-vq9qp you might have made a mistake coming here. This isn't the children's channel.
And not to forget, what China did on the Loess plateau south of the Gobi desert - was planned much better than those tree monocultures and is a stunning success.
@Swarmpope overgrazing was a huge problem back then.
@Swarmpope No, much more than that. It's in the documentary "Lessons from the Loess Plateau" by John Liu.
Yes! That was amazing! I still have this video in my favourite folder...xoxox
It's not mentioned here, because this video is essentially an ad for their own reforestation project for which they are trying to collect money. They don't really care to educate about the "great green wall", they just care to plug the link to their own campaign.
@@quinto190 you mean propaganda lmao
Learning as they go.
Nice to hear!
I remember flying into China for the first time, flying over Manchuria on my way to Beijing. I was shocked at how many trees I could see below. Frankly, I thought all of Manchuria had been grassland. But, nope. Lots and lots of trees. The same held true when flying through southern China. That one surprised me too--how green huge chunks of the country were.
bro，welcome to China ！ I live in henan province,from my own experience of my life, some factories are closed for a week in per month to protect the environment, even china is a developing country. And,the Manchuria is not a geographic word. Manchuria was established after Japan invaded the three northeastern provinces of China without declaring war during World War II, and Manchuria's army was all controlled by Japan - they wanted to split and gradually occupy China in this way.
@@mcy6173 工厂每个月关闭一周吗？确定不是开玩笑吗？去了多少个省和城市从来没听过见过
@@majiko1267 老弟，中国那么大，你没见过的很多
I'm not sure if it is true but I think I heard the reason they are going with monoculture is because they have a tiered system where the first tier is getting fast growing trees in the most airid regions to get a water table established and to get other plants growing just to start up the water cycle. Native species and natural ecosystems will develop with the presence of water.
The other thing China us doing is using PLA (a type of plastic, not the military) nets to create wind barriers so they can first stop the wind from moving sand and allow plants to develop roots.
Honestly even if all of the monoculture trees grow and fall that still provides nutrients for new plants, and shade from the fallen and standing trees to help retain water. They worst thing is to allow the sun to beam down on the soil itself thats how you evaporate the water and prevent new plants from taking root.
That would be quite a long time for that to happen naturally though, trees are extremely long lived. And the monoculture trees suck up nutrients and block out sunlight, preventing the possible growth of native plants
I still respect the fact that they planted so many trees though, it's really cool
@@someyetiwithinternetaccess1253 trees block out sunlight, preventing growth... have you ever been to a jungle?
@@yzy8638 that's native wildlife, which have evolved to coexist with each other
@@someyetiwithinternetaccess1253 coexist to a point where larger tree move away their leave so sunshine reach the btm? Lol
@@yzy8638 competition for sunlight is fierce lmao. Little grows under leaf cover, and most plants are just waiting for a tree to fall so they can claim the sunlight.
China plays a very long game.
To assume China dosent understand ecosystems is a mistake.
Think of these monicultures as a first responder patch up, with planned bio diversity to follow once this first planting has been harvested...
Then rip native forests
China doesn't care about native forests
But china wont exist in the long game it will unite again later tho
In the Chinese defense, I being a layman about monoculture vs old growth until I have learned about the difference just a few years ago would have made the same mistake. I would have gone with the fastest growing trees. China has a new technology they invented where they use an overlaying spray and inject native grasses instead of trees. This has had a huge impact by turning desertification areas that were once grasslands back to healthy pasture lands. They are learning and adapting.
its not a short term project by any means. Those 15% of trees that survived gets its seeds replanted, and then 60% survive, so on so forth
Yeah, I was born in a north west part of China and experienced sand storm when I was young, but never happened again in recent 15 years.
Seeing you out there in all that gear makes me want to do that
Seven years ago I watched a person on the news who was conducting habitat surveys in our local creeks. I was 49 years old and was starting over from scratch after a 30 year marriage/divorce and 22 years out of the workforce (I owned my own businesses for 22 years and raised 4 kids). I thought "I want to do that, it he can do it, I can do it". Fast forward 7 years, I have a BS in Forestry, Park and Land Management, studied water quality and GIS for 3.5 years while getting my degree, worked for the County for my internship Capstone on restoration, worked for the City of Seattle's Watershed on forest health, invasive species removal, and ecological thinning projects for the last 5.5 years. If you want to do this kind of work, please pursue it. We need all hands on deck and passionate people to lead the way. Join us!
@@mariknutson7307 wow! thats really cool!
could you give more information how did you start?@@mariknutson7307
Much love 🫶 Mossy Earth ⛳
They're learning and making mistakes, but they're learning.. which is very, very good to hear.
I do hope there're good research data coming out of this great project!
And increase from 8.6% to 23.3% of land covered by forest is _not_ an increase of 14.7 “percent”.
It’s an increase 14.7 percentage points, or an increase of 171 percent!
Which is an absolutely massive increase.
I replied to a similar comment on here but fair point, I know this wasn't intentional but we should probably have mentioned it in both ways to be clearer
@@PaulCoxC Still a great video, thank you for making it!
@@somefuckstolemynick I can't take the credit for the video, that was Tom, but thanks, good to know some people appreciated it, we tried our best to give a balanced view :)
the hardest part is not turning desert green but rather keeping them green without human intervention afterwards
To all the backyard garden experts here, just so you know, in your country no matter how much effort you put up you can't even do 1/20th of the work the Chinese has done over there.
Very good video, one detail though. Some might find it nitpicking, but I think it's a very important detail that changes the weight of the number a lot: 1:11 - 8.6% to 23.3% is an increase of 14.7 points, not percent. 8.6% to 23.3% is in fact a 171% increase. A 14.7% increase would mean it went from 8.6% to just 9.9%.
I replied to a similar comment on here but fair point, I know this wasn't intentional but we should probably have mentioned it in both ways to be clearer
Argument-by-argument critique part 5
2:34 Here, 18% planted tree survival is criticised as a failure. The overall result of reforestation in China, as mentioned before in the video, is a 15% increase in forest cover. This must indicate some success right, even despite the difficulty of planting at the fringe of a desert?
But what is the general survival rate of planted trees? In Sacramento, California, the survival of planted trees after 5 years is around 80% (Roman et al. 2014, 10.1016), which whould amount to about 50% after 15 years (100% x 0.8^3 = 50%). Should we then say that the Three-North-Shelter forest program is a failure since its survival (18%) is less than half of that of Sacramento? Considering the greater challenge of planting trees on the edge of a growing desert, I think 18% is very good in comparison.
If we go to Rwanda, a country with a climate and relatively dry savannah that still is less challenging than the outskirts of the Gobi desert, 15-year survival rate of planted trees is about the same as for the Green Wall project (13%, extrapolated from 5-year survival, Murekezi et al 2013, DOI: 10.4314/rj.v1i1.4E).
What Mossy Earth is doing here, is taking data that is relatively good in comparison to the global standard, and presenting them as a failure, hoping that the viewer does not have enough background knowledge to reveal the falsehoods.
thank you for providing the context to the data!
Hey now we all know China bashing always gets the views from self righteous western audience!
Anything China does is evil and bad, only west knows how to save the planet!
2:32 15% of planted trees surviving is not a bad statistic given the scale and through that resulting lack of care and protection for the individual sapling.
Here in germany you usually plant 3 saplings for every plant tree, so a success rate of 33% and that is with fences and in rich soil.
So I would say that 15% to stop a desert is pretty good, however if they didn't plan with those losses than it is ofcourse a problem
I believe its more 15% of forests, not necessarily 15% survival rate in each forest. Meaning some survive but so many are a total failure.
@@MossyEarth Source? Just "I believe" can't be an argument.
As one from China，I wanna thank all the kindness of the viewers that left comments!
You all have your own thinking, not affected by the biased media！
动态网自由门 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Free Tibet 六四天安門事件 The Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 天安門大屠殺 The Tiananmen Square Massacre 反右派鬥爭 The Anti-Rightist Struggle 大躍進政策 The Great Leap Forward 文化大革命 The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution 人權 Human Rights 民運 Democratization 自由 Freedom 獨立 Independence 多黨制 Multi-party system 台灣 臺灣 Taiwan Formosa 中華民國 Republic of China 西藏 土伯特 唐古特 Tibet 達賴喇嘛 Dalai Lama 法輪功 Falun Dafa 新疆維吾爾自治區 The Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region 諾貝爾和平獎 Nobel Peace Prize 劉暁波 Liu Xiaobo 民主 言論 思想 反共 反革命 抗議 運動 騷亂 暴亂 騷擾 擾亂 抗暴 平反 維權 示威游行 李洪志 法輪大法 大法弟子 強制斷種 強制堕胎 民族淨化 人體實驗 肅清 胡耀邦 趙紫陽 魏京生 王丹 還政於民 和平演變 激流中國 北京之春 大紀元時報 九評論共産黨 獨裁 專制 壓制 統一 監視 鎮壓 迫害 侵略 掠奪 破壞 拷問 屠殺 活摘器官 誘拐 買賣人口 遊進 走私 毒品 賣淫 春畫 賭博 六合彩 天安門 天安门 法輪功 李洪志 Winnie the Pooh 劉曉波动态网自由门
Argument-by-argument critique part 2
1:23 It is ironic that monoculture projects from the 80s in China are criticized, while mixed planting only got serious attention in Europe from around the 2000s (Lie et al 2018). The video consistently refer to the Green Wall as a monoculture, but it is most places a di-culture with birch and poplar, and many places more species.
2:18 The line of reasoning does not make sense. According to the two-layer hypothesis (see for example Langevelde et al 2010) shrubbery and grasses with shallow root systems do not compete for groundwater with trees. Here Mossy should provide some references to back up his claim.
1- They never said the others were right. They just talked about the biggest scale project and it's consequences since it's much easier to see
2- It does, water is not everything, the bushes that were adapted to the desert may not survive very well with competing vegetation from the outside, new trees growing or lack of sunlight
So what you're saying is that China started an excellent reforestation program, learn from their mistakes so they could improve their reforestation program. Sounds like a pretty successful program to me
We are saying China started a rather unsuccessful and flawed reforestation program and is now learning from their mistakes and making it better. ;) - Cheers, Duarte
They didn't start an excellent reforestation program, it had a lot of flaws and still has
Learned from their mistakes? Yes, kinda, but there is still work to be done
A sucessful program? No, it drasticly lowered the water levels in the area making it even harder for trees to grow + Wasted millions
Nothing wrong with learning from trial and error. Thats how science come this far.
@@MossyEarth It is better than NOT starting. Australia and US is not immune to the same mistakes.
@@joaquimbarbosa896 **They didn't start an excellent reforestation program, it had a lot of flaws and still has**
Has anyone done a project of this size? No
** No, it drasticly lowered the water levels in the area making it even harder for trees to grow + Wasted millions**
So letting the desert take over is better? What would you have done when the project first started when there is less research. You also forget China's geography is different than yours.
That's the difference between puting up an aquarium and a sea world. You may spend days of hours designing your aquarium: species diversity, sustainability, decorations etc. But if you try the same on building a sea world, you may need to plan it forever. The area of one single desert in China is probably larger than the area of whole England and China has dozens of them.
I think 15% is actually quite a lot. think about how many trees die in nature. statistically, every tree only has a bit more than one descendant that grows to full age, now think about how many seeds they produce every year
15% survival rate in a desert is a very good number.
There is very little planting in the actual desert. It is more in desert boundaries. Also as we mentioned often native forests have been cut and then a monoculture with a 15% survival rate is planted. That is very sub optimal to say the least. - Cheers, Duarte
@@MossyEarth But Duarte, will you not agree that Mossy Earth usually operate on an easier playground than the Three Forest Program? Incidentally, what is the 10-year survival rate of Mossy Earth trees in arid areas?
Anyone can be a backseat driver. But you have no idea the amount of dedication put into the project by ordinary Chinese ppl. It is a remarkable achievement nonetheless. Projects of similar scale or success hasn't been done in the US for decades, not since roosevelt.
Well, you say the tried really hard, and that's all that matters.
People can hate china for what they do in general but for this even tho most trees died u have to give them credits for trying, and by far none country currently has tried this at such a large scale and executed it.
We learn from failure to do better and gather knowledge for future generations
they will learn , not we ... we will be judging em again while our asses are stuck on chairs on youtube at 2 am.
Good to see things are on the right track. It's a learning process. So it's really important to have scientists at the forefront and politics at the rear.
1:08 actually according to those numbers, that’s *about* a 300% increase.
You don't understand the concept and the method behind China's oasification/reverse desertification. First they have to plant certain type of trees just to secure the top layer of soil. Once the soils are settled, and retain water moisture ratio then they would plant other different species of trees to balance out the ecosystem. It doesn't happen overnight to turn a desert into an oasis. It took China two generations of hard work to get to where they are. You guys only talk about saving the planet, but only do so little to help. Stop complaining and criticizing until you have something better to offer.
They are trash, they can not torlerate others' hard working.
Basically the same thing Reddit do. Call out the others while doing nothing in return.
To criticize is the first step of rectification, especially when the criticism is sound and constructive, so what the hell are you talking about? What do you propose he should do? Stay quiet about it CCP-style until something goes horribly wrong?
@@wisdomleader85 na na na u start bring up ccp thing. Jealousy 🤣🤣🤣 the admin admit they never do desert project. What china had done might not perfect yet but its so much better than having bigger desert and let it get bigger year by year. Its just 40 years right now. Maybe after me and you gone from this earth there will be more bio diversity and less desert on earth. Never stop learn bro
Wow, this burnt bread is so bad, too bad I cant complain about it cus I can't cook
AWESOME insight. Great content mate
8.6% -> 23.3% isn't a 14.7% increase, it's a 171% increase. The amount of forest more than doubled.
Explain it in maths terms? I don’t understand how you get that 171% figure
@@Putt-Putt Imagine you own 86 of 1000 apples. Then you acquire more of the apples so now you have 233 of the 1000 apples. Your apple ownership stake went from 8.6% to 23.3% but you have (233-86)/86 (or 171%) more apples. E.g. you would have 100% more apples if you ended up with twice as many (172) apples.
this is why i love enviromental engineering. it's so complex that it's mesmerising
Turning a vast desert to forest is definetely difficult and no one has ever done that.
There will be many mistake and wrong approch be applied, but I do wish it can success.
If it sucess, its experience will help human to fight against global warming.
Even if you ignore Global Warming thats a beneficial project. Especially the Sahara is rapidly expanding and threatening milliond of people and their way of life. With the Lessons learned they can halt and maybe even reverse the growth.
It might even help Brazil, since the forests they cut down dont grow back on their own
People in West just criticise and dont do anything proactive. At least the Chinese are doing something positive..
Happy to see the suggestion.
I engaged with this video because I highly value the work being done. I don’t have money but I can engage and support this.
I want to see the success of this project.
Mossy Earth, I have a question about your project, does your organization have plans or activities for pushing back desertification? You claim your project works better but on your project page, there are only projects active in regions that have existing forests rather than deserts. So is the claim you made at 3:00 based on the tested method or just your assumptions.
I respect your work but the claim that your project works better than the green wall is a putty bold claim. And the method that you mentioned on your website really does not show how any of it will work in a desert, while the Green Wall at least has some trees growing in what was once sand.
All respect to your work and your organization but I really don't see how your method will work better in deserts, or work at all in deserts really.
Haha.. I'm not surprised anymore to what wstern perspective toward China for years.
They always have ton of creative pseudo-science ways to tone down any China's positive contribution to become just mere pr0paganda by the govt.
That's the very problem of the deeply-religious countries like US, India, Indonesia, and many more, where the most of the people have that *dogmatism* mindset. They like the fiery spe ech and figures with good public speaking (persuading) skill. They prefer the comforting promises from their leaders and don't reaIIy care the proof of work done by the leaders.
That's why we call it as NATO (No Action Talk Only).
While most of East Asian people have *pragmatism* mindset.
They don't reaIIy care how good or bad a leader's speaking skill. As long as the leader able to give out and provide the progress or solid prove of work, they wiII surely commit to the action.
See how Chinese govt banned comercial fishing along Yangtze River for a decade and release millions of sturgeon fishes to bring back the ecosystem?
Bah, wstern m edia won't like it... or it just a small number articles from them about it.
No answer... all i can hear is crickets...
Hi! Thank you for the comment and apologies for the slow reply. There are a lot of comments on this video now and it’s the weekend after all, I was trying to enjoy the sunshine :) We do not work in planting trees to fight desertification. All we meant to point out was that projects such as this one and the research that has come out of it has taught all of us many useful lessons. One of them is to focus on planting a good mix of healthy species which we do at all our projects. That is what we wanted to say. It was just a way to introduce our projects. We never intended to compare ourselves with China and their efforts, that would be foolish. After all, it is a whole country! There must be 100s of great initiatives associated with the green wall just as there are plenty of bad ones. As for what works best in deserts a good mix of species seems to be the best just as China has been doing now in more recent years.
@@Kiyoone bro it's been less than 24hrs, maybe don't be so quick on the draw?
@@MossyEarth Thank you for taking the time for such a detailed reply. I have very limited knowledge of environmental science (only take an ENV101 in university) so please correct me if I am wrong. My understanding of an ecosystem such as a forest is that it always starts with only a few species of plants that are resistant to the environment of the location (such as direct sunlight and drought in deserts), only when there is a foundation of the few species can rest of the species survive. So if a 'good mix of healthy species' is planted right at the start wouldn't most of the species just die as there is no solid foundation yet?
On other hand is by 'good mix of healthy species' you are referring to only a few species (like only 2 to 3 species) that are resistant enough to survive in deserts how is what you are suggesting fundamentally different from what China was doing which was planning one type of trees? As I think having 3 species of trees will create far more logistic problems than the benefits the limited diversity brings.
I am by no means trying to criticize you, just curious from a scientific perspective.
The monoculture reforestation is a huge problem in the United States logging business. Specifically in Oregon our forests are being clear cut and then planted with only one or a few types of trees and there had been proof that it is a forest fire hazard.
It's funny to see English speaking people comment on whether China's reforestation is right or wrong
非常乐意在这里能够听到这么多的意见。防护林工程是实现我们国家土地可持续发展的重要一环，工程启动至今，北方人民生活的环境质量明显改善了。
你沒發現人家怎麼帶節奏的嗎？
人家最後的結論是中國人做什麼都是錯的。
世界公認的植樹造林保護地球都能被洗成錯誤。
洋人啊~
@@tigerwild1164 西人永远都是这样啦，200多来为了工业发展持续破坏环境，等自己完成了资本累积，就把污染重的产业迁去发展中国家，连各种垃圾也要集装箱运到其他国家去处理，自己享受发展中国家带来的廉价商品与高度工业化带来的便利，转过头又严厉谴责发展中国家在毁坏环境，而对自己百年来更加严重的累积污染闭口不谈。今时今日，发展中国家的人均碳排放也比西人的低得多，而且都是为了让人民吃饱饭穿得暖的产业。环境差，他们说中国污染重都是雾霾；环境好了，他们说植树造林会破坏沙漠生态。
@@tigerwild1164 对呀，这又不是他们的祖国，肯定不盼着中国好~
Damn, seems like a pretty successful project to me lol. 66billion trees is a hell of a lot more than your organization will ever plant
who would have thought a national government could do more than a small group
stupid comment
Do not compare an orhanization founded less than 2 yeas ago by some randoom dudes with a country with The highets GDP PPP
Wild guess - they’ve only been able to plant this many because China is the most populated country on earth. Terribly unfair to compare the two.
6 gorbillion pizzas
covering 10% of the 2nd biggest country is a huge success . Sure there are problems but NASA images show that overall it's been the most successful afforestation project ever conducted just by area that is now self sustainable forest and with an overall forest increase of almost 200%. Many huge countries like America or Russia are on the other side loosing much of their forests. And of the big projects to counter carbon emission and desertification only India and China managed to take measures which have been very close to expectations. I hope that US and Russia will also try their best. Especially the US has many super effective measures and projects but unfortunately this are very small areas and overall they still loose more forest than they regrow or had an increase of almost 3% of forest area compared to 1991 depending on the source. Russia on the other hand looses forest at a massive rate and it's very concerning not only for them but also for the world. And the Rainforest in Brazil... well let's not talk about that
I believe if China aimed smaller and nurtured small gains in amount of forested lands it would serve them better. Forests have to be sustained with human intervention (in unnatural environments) long enough for mosses, mushrooms, animal droppings, and a water table to establish an appropriate medium and culture for long term healthy ecosystems and forests. Much love from the states ❤ ❤ ❤!
Some of the area which you may not know is quite bad and in some ways literally a desert. Very few species even grow there. People that are setting up these projects are planting 20 types of trees and shrubs. Taking care of them after planting is also another thing, survival rate in some projects are 95%.
What you have seen is one study of many created by Chinese.
Most wide spaced mono-specific tree plantations develop understories of local shade tolerant plants over time. Any local birds able to eat the seeds or foliage of the plantation trees will import other seed types in their poop.
Beijing saw 63.0% fewer sandstorms per year compared to the period before.
The fundamental reason for desertification is the local population exceeds the capacity of the environment. Smart arrangement and control of population have to play its part in preventing desertification other than the Forest Program. A scientific selection of vegetation is also important but again it by nature requires a compromise in economic benefits and it is just impossible to let the Chinese government pay all the cost.
The Chinese government is working on this problem and there is still a long way to go for the Forest Program to work in a sustainable way and hope it will eventually work.
Preventing the desert from expanding is certainly better than doing absolutely nothing. No other project has been as large as well. And these project has seen real improvements experienced by people.
The gobi desert expanded and should be stopped and shrunk. Perhaps you lack depth like many westerners on what China is actually doing. There are numerous Chinese paper that are NOT in English. Having trees is better than a expanding desert that covers everything else. Rows of grass and local tree are planted in addition to drought resistant shrubs, resistant trees such as popular. Seeds are scattered from planes as well in China. Professionals are also part of the program.
Issues with "monoculture" also exists in US and Australia
4:46 Let's take a look over a longer time period so we have more context. Beijing saw 63.0% fewer sandstorms per year compared to the period before compared to 1979.
On December 5, 2017, the Saihanba Afforestation Community won the honor of Champions of the Earth in the category of Inspiration and Action due to its efforts to transform degraded land into a lush paradise, the highest environmental honor provided by the United Nations Environment Programme.
very insightful comment, thanks for this!
Thank you, I don't understand this hubris that always seems to believe non-western countries are full of idiots bumbling around. Is it resentment at being kicked out of their former colonies/subjects or something else, something more to do with racism?
Yes, you are right. The true aim is making things better for people and China is doing that for people living around the Gobi desert and fast. Mono cultures work for crops, they have advantages. It's not a silly thing to work on that assumption for forests too. The Chinese also manage flooding and pin down sand with straw and mats. Seems like a weak point on such a successful project. Still likes the video though, just nitpicking
Yes, you are right, but the main criticism, analysis and precautionary message of this video was biodiversity the preservation of autochtonous species, not simply of native plants, but the wide variety of animals that have established specific niches in the habitats created by said plants. It is a tough battle to beat with sacrifices, but ecological disasters rarely help humans.
From MVP to final product. Giant and complex project like this is impossible to be done right in one go. There’s a lot of learning when doing the project. The good thing is that the project still going on and keeps improving. A lot of learnings can benefit other countries and organisations from making the same mistakes.
Bravo China! Their effort is laudable. They're always willing to take impossible tasks, even if the learning curve is steep and they're also tweaking their approach without losing their aims. It goes for politics as well as ecology. So there is great hope that their society will evolve to be a great leading nation in the future in terms of stable growth and exemple to follow.
China is committing genocide. More trees less genocide
How much did ccp pay you
@@famahyus Are you for sale? If not, then why do you infer I am? If yes, I truly feel sorry for you, but still hope it can help you overcome your problems somehow.
@@francoisguyot9770 wow you work to boost ccp for free then, bravo
@@famahyusThanks for your understanding! I knew you'd agree that not everything need to be for sale, nor needs lobbying for some personal interests. "Free" is ambiguous... for I gain some peace of mind in exchange. Defending causes I believe are supporting true democracy, humanism, altruism or idealism, perhaps sounds naive to you, but I do believe indeed that freeing 2/3 of its population from poverty is no easy feat at all. Every 4 years our democracy promises more freedom and equality but keeps playing dirty tricks around the world. For the past 50 years, all the wars were waged essentially by us, so that we can maintain our lavish lifestyle. We've grown to become the cancer of democracy in reality. Even within our country officials are so corrupt over money; violence and hatred prevails...
When I worked in the CCC in South Lake Tahoe we planted trees and only an Estimated 15%-25% would survive I also believe it was none native trees we planted for Tahoe. These trees also had a Drip line feed from a 1000-gallon water tank uphill to keep them watered threw the summer.
What no one understands is that monocultures in cities are totally fine and in cities you can plant trees that grow fast and throw shade and all the other benefits you want from it. If you want to "recreate" or "regrow" nature you have to choose the type of forest or green land you want grow also including climate change as a factor and you have to build up a natural diverse enviroment with plants that live in communes and support each other. What I find weird is that often I see that they try to create a diverse nature in the city but a "controlled" and planed out monoculture forest in rural areas. You can't create real nature in cities because they are not connected to real natural habitats plus lack of space and you can't build up self sustaining forests with just planting anything you want they way you want. Ecosystems are very complex and it takes about a 100 years for a natural forest to establish!
Argument-by-argument critique part 4
4:17 Here Mossy uses a straw-man argument; that China intends to afforestate the whole Gobi desert, thereby threatening it’s ecosystem. As Mossy well knows, the Three-North Shelter Forest Program only intends to limit the spread of the Gobi desert, not swallow it. It does not help that Mossy clears up straw-man shortly after, it’s still questionable rethorics.
4:33 Here Mossy argues that an established desert, like Gobi, is more healthy, ecologically, than a planted forest. This is a strange claim, since deserts in general have very low biodiversity. Newly desertified regions would have even lower biodiversity than newly reforested regions, even if a di-culture. In any case, a desert is considered very low in biodiversity. A deciduous forest, on the other hand, have one of the highest biodiversities outside the tropics, once the ecosystem is established.
Something like that happend in my country in the last three years... In 19 century, lot's of the original forests were replaced by spruce monocultures. Then, three years ago, huge over population of bark beettle decimated almost 90 % of all forests in our country. The governmant Is trying to plant back the original specieses, but it'll take at least 100 years to grow all the forests back...
From the report I have read it's said that the green area in China that been recovery are generally the lost green area which had been lost in history, like the Lop Nor that dried out more that 1,000 years ago. And with multiple top universities working on this, I can't agree that this could go wrong.
This was so informative and concise! You can see that you researched the topic in depth and then squeezed it all into a few minutes full of nuance. Well done Tom!!
Thank you Tiago! I agree, Tom did a great job for his first video. - Cheers, Duarte
China is doing so much for regreening the planet. Let's hope the west can stop their destructive behavior and reduce their bloated consumption and emission and start their own regreening efforts instead of criticising others.
A recommendation I would give is a strategy I like to call chaos gardening. (Collecting lots of seeds and broadcasting them over areas that need diversity) allow natural selection to select the best individuals for every area. Also pollarding trees would help increase soil organic matter and keep the canopy clear. Obviously this would be a lot of work on the large scale but would help with biodiversity and sustainability
This is the current approach. They throw in a combination of seeds, including early nitrogen fixers and some fertilizer too. The good thing is this approach can be done with a hose, so the human work involved is much lower.
I remember that several years ago there was news that a private grape farmland secretly cut down the ecological newly planted trees to steal more land to grow grapes (grapes absorb much more water than other plants), Chinese people criticized fiercely on the Internet, almost everyone around me was annoyed at that time. Many individuals checked the satellite map to seek for evidence. China not only plant trees, the most important contribution of the large-scale project is to make everyone realize the beauty and importance of greenland, now when we buy a house, the green rate of community has become an important index.
Greta video! I would love to see if you could and comparative information in your next videos so I can build a reference point. Also if you got someone more familiar with the situation, maybe from China, to provide their insight.
Very well researched! As someone that helped in a reforestation project, can confirm the tree planting practices were questionable until recently.
Worth noting that it's not just the illegal loggers, some county governments even log the very trees they planted 😂 There was a case where the Dunhang govt. let people turn part of the Green Wall into vineyards! I believe this particular incident pushed national govt. to form the new forestry regulation.
And yeah I witnessed the sandstorm situation imrpove. If you lived in Tianjin during the spring 7~8 yrs ago, you cannot open the window for an hour without dust accumulating ALL OVER your furniture. Thankfully this is no longer the case!
Well a vineyard is relatively small and is good because it creates jobs for the locals, and it's still better than a desert 🏜
@@KrolKaz Did you miss the part where the forest was a wall against the dessert? That's like breaking your window to let in more fresh air
Good for a bit, just not when it starts raining.
Repent and follow Jesus my friend! Repenting doesn't mean confessing your sins to others, but to stop doing them altogether. Belief in Messiah alone is not enough to get you into heaven - Matthew 7:21-23, John 3:3, John 3:36 (ESV is the best translation for John 3:36). Contemplate how the Roman empire fulfilled the role of the beast from the sea in Revelation 13. Revelation 17 confirms that it is in fact Rome. From this we can conclude that A) Jesus is the Son of God and can predict the future or make it happen, B) The world leaders/nations/governments etc have been conspiring together for the last 3000+ years to accomplish the religion of the Israelites C) History as we know it is fake. You don't really need to speculate though because you can start a relationship with God and have proof. Call on the name of Jesus and pray for Him to intervene in your life. - Revelation 3:20
Revelation 6 1st Seal: White horse = Roman Empire conquering nations under Trajan 98-117 AD & Gospel spreading rapidly. 2nd Seal: Red horse, bloody civil wars with 32 different Emperors, most killed by the sword. 185-284 AD 3rd Seal: Black horse, economic despair from high taxes to pay for wars, farmers stopped growing. 200-250 AD 4th Seal: Pale horse, 1/4th of Romans died from famine, pestilence; at one point 5,000 dying per day. 250-300 AD 5th Seal: Diocletian persecuted Smyrna church era saints for ten years, blood crying out for vengeance. 303-312 AD 6th Seal: Political upheaval in the declining Roman Empire while the leaders battled each other. 313-395 AD
Revelation 7 Sealing of 144,000, the saints, before trumpet war judgments, which led to the fall of the Roman Empire.
Revelation 8 1st Trumpet: Alaric and the Goths attacked from the north, the path of hail, and set it on fire. 400-410 AD 2nd Trumpet: Genseric and the Vandals attacked the seas and coastlands, the blood of sailors in water. 425-470 AD 3rd Trumpet: Attila and the Huns scourged the Danube, Rhine & Po rivers area, dead bodies made water bitter. 451 AD 4th Trumpet: Odoacer and the Heruli caused the last Western Emperor (sun), Senate (moon) to lose power. 476 AD With the Western Roman Emperor (restrainer of 2 Thes. 2) removed; the son of perdition Popes took power.
Revelation 9 Two woe judgments against the central 1/3rd and eastern 1/3rd of the Roman Empire. 612-1453 AD 5th Trumpet: Locust & scorpions point to Arabia, the rise of the Muslim army. Islam hides Gospel from Arabs. 612-762 AD 6th Trumpet: Turks released to attack Constantinople with large cannons (fire, smoke, brimstone). 1062-1453 AD
Revelation 10 The little book is the printed Bible, which was needed after the Dark Ages when Scriptures were banned by Popes.
Revelation 11 7th Trumpet: Martin Luther measured Roman Church; found that it’s an apostate church, not part of true temple. The two witnesses are the Scriptures and saints who proclaim the pure Gospel and testify against the antichrist Popes. Papal Church pronounced Christendom dead in 1514 AD. Silence for 3.5 years. Then Luther posted his 95 Thesis, which sparked the Protestant Reformation and brought the witnesses back to life. Millions of Catholics were saved.
Revelation 12 Satan used the Roman Empire to try to wipe out the early Church, Satan was cast down as the Empire collapsed.
Revelation 13 The antichrist beast Popes reigned in power 1,260 years, 538-1798, is the little horn of Daniel 7, son of perdition. The false prophet Jesuit Superior General rose to power from land (earth) of Vatican and has created many deceptions.
Revelation 14 Points to great harvest during the Protestant Reformation & wrath on Catholic countries who obey antichrist Pope.
Revelation 15 Overcoming saints victorious over the beast. Prelude to 7 vials and judgment on those who support Papal Rome.
Revelation 16 1st Vial: The foul sore of atheism was poured out on Catholic France, leaving them with no hope, led to revolution. 2nd Vial: The French Revolution started in 1793, killed 250,000, as France had obeyed the Pope and killed saints. 3rd Vial: The French Revolution spread to rural areas of France, where Protestants had been killed in river areas. 4th Vial: The bloody Napoleonic wars shed the blood of countries who had revered and obeyed the antichrist Pope. 5th Vial: Judgment on the seat of the beast. Papal States invaded in 1798, Pope imprisoned, removed from power. 6th Vial: The Turks vast domain dried up, they were only left with Turkey. They lost control of Palestine in 1917 AD, Israel became a nation again in 1948
I really want to see all this full of green and life! Kisses from Brazil...
Right back at you! Brazil has some serious and impactful environmental projects as well and they don't always go smoothly either. Best of luck to you guys, I'm sure over time we will all become better at protecting the natural environment!
Let's use ecosia 👍🌱🌳🌱🌲. Spread the word to friends and family
Very informative, thank you!
That was much more interesting than I thought it would be going in 🤣
Fascinating topic! Thanks Mossy earth!
Thank you Gidi! We put some hard work into this one, glad you liked it! - Cheers, Duarte