The Westland Welkin; Whirlwind’s High Flying Sibling
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ต.ค. 2024
- A lot of people have asked: "Why didn't Westland put the Rolls Royce Merlin on their Whirlwind fighter?"
Well, they kind of did....kind of...
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NASA still flies the Canberra, last I checked
Yup, the WB-57, originally built under license by Martin.
They used to fly into the airport I controlled at.
Yes, they have 3 in the active NASA fleet, with two currently operational.
There set up for high up pictures with bigger wings I believe also
NASA had 2 or 3 WB-57Fs still doddering around. Nevermind that, short of the fuselage, it's been totally rebuilt. 😆
The Junkers high altitude diesels should be a topic for a video as well. Or maybe the entire Ju-86 series
Nice to see more ancestry for the English Electric Canberra - a version of which is *still* in service with NASA. The Welkin's designer did good work. The Canberra was license-built by Martin Aircraft in the US. A version was developed as a reconnaissance aircraft, the WB-57F. This has a very wide wingspan. Three have been used by NASA for years for a range of duties and are now used for photographing high-priority launches such as crewed spacecraft and their reentries.
Its military service life was extended into at least 2011. The Air Force borrowed one from NASA to test a new sensor suite over Afghanistan.
The Caberra was designed to be the jet equivlent of the Mosquito, and it was. When introduced, no fighter could touch it.
Evidently the u2 of its time?
@@hughgordon6435 Definitely.
@Aqua Fyre Then why they fail to shoot down the Canberra that flew into Soviet airspace? It flew high enough and fast enough that early jets couldn't reliably hope to intercept it.
What is there to say other than the usual : Awesome video ! Never heard of this plane yet it was such a fascinating story !
I hope Ed's non aircraft videos get as much notice as these, the quality of this channel cannot be overstated !
Thanks! Must admit, have to go back to doing a few more aircraft videos over other topics. Love the non aviation stuff, but forgotten aircraft pays the bills 😁
@@EdNashsMilitaryMatters When you're producing cracking coverage of something as long forgotten as the fascinating Welkin it ain't much of a surprise.
Mind you, the other stuff's good too.
Surprised you've never heard of it tbh.
The wingspan looks massive
❤️ the look of the Welkin & Whirlwind! Thank you for this one Ed 🥰
What the dickens? What a beauty! Never come across this weird aeroplane before and would like to say thanks for the heads-up!
Great video! I knew of the Westland Whirlwind, built an Airfix model back in the day, not the Welkin. One of those 'odd bombs' dropped by a JU 86 was dropped on Bristol, it hit a car with a full tank, which must have been a rarity back then. The resultant conflagration spread to a bus and caused considerable loss of life.
Nice one Ed. I already knew quite a bit about the Welkin as my father built a model of one of these back in the 70s as he'd seen them flying during WWII so I naturally took an interest of my own. The kit was vacuum formed (by a manufacturer called Contrail) and incredibly basic, requiring hours of cutting, sanding and filling. My Father's still with us and this is one of the things he still remembers doing so I'm going to build the modern equivalent by CMR (not a vacform thankfully) to keep with tradition.
Another great video Ed! - It's worth mentioning that Petter helped George Carter of Glosters with the design of the pressurised cockpit of the Meteor jet. Ironic, because the Meteor was another reason why the Welkin was no longer needed - it had excellent high-altitude performance and could climb to height a lot faster than the Welkin. Post-war all the experience Westland had built up developing high-altitude technology was separated off into the "Normalair" Company
This is why I should come to you before posting videos John 😂
The name “welkin” has an interesting meaning- well worth looking up. Thanks Ed for another great video 👍
The excellent TSR2 was also scrapped..!!!!!!!!
It has to be best part of 60 years ago, but I definitely remember a great Biggles story about trying to catch a high-altitude intruder!
It was probably in a stripped-down Spit though - much more Capt. Bigglesworth's style.
The original Biggles story came from WE Johns’ WW1 stories, I don’t remember which book, but I am sure I have it somewhere. It involved Flight Sergeant Smyth adding extensions to the upper wing of a Sopwith Camel, and reducing it’s weight. It worked in respect of altitude but made the Camel a deathtrap in a dive. Biggles victory ended in a crash landing.
@@thesmallerhalf1968 I agree, in my 20's, I was a Biggles aficionado, I think I had about 80 of the books. Although its upwards of 30 years since I read them, I am pretty sure that this was the correct version of the story, although it may have been re-worked in a WW2 setting, I wouldnt have put it past him. I still reckon Biggles Flies West would make an ace film!
Your videos are excellent.
Just a note regarding the relevant aerodynamics - compressibility comes from Mach number, not airspeed or groundspeed. Because Mach varies with altitude (same actual speed over the ground equals higher mach at higher altitude due to temperature changes), you get compressibility "earlier" at higher altitude. Meanwhile, the same true speed "looks like" lower airspeed to a wing at higher altitudes, because the lower density air provides less lift (and less drag) for a given airspeed. This leads to a "coffin corner" where the aircraft needs to fly faster in order to maintain lift, yet adding any speed causes mach limit issues. That "coffin corner," where those lines converge, is often the reason for an aircraft's ceiling. High aspect (long and slender) wings help with the lift part, but if materials requirements mean they have to be extra chunky, the compressibility gets worse. Just 15 or so years later, the U-2 would use extremely long, thing, and NON-chunky wings to get its coffin corner up to ~80k feet.
Great video again!
Excellent point re the 44,000 ft interception by a high flying Spitfire. A perfect outcome really, with the German crew making it home to tell the tale.
The Junkers only got home because one of Galitzines two 20mm cannon jammed and ever time he fired the good one it threw his Spitfire into a violent spin.
Always thought this was an interesting and good looking aircraft. Thanks for the post.
What a splendid vid of an aircraft that has fascinated me since childhood. T very much FP.
Glad to see somebody cover this important but forgotten transitional aircraft.
Hi Ed . Another scoop ! I did know about this aircraft and it's over long gestation but as always you came up with facts l didn't know ! It was indeed the Spitfire incident that ended these very high level intrusions . I do know that one of the cannon jammed so as soon as the remaining cannon fired the pilot couldn't control the aircraft , but at lleast one round struck the enemy . Thanks Ed.
_"Tobogganing down a flight of stairs on a tea tray."_ -- Harold Penrose, Westland Test Pilot
That may be the _MOST BRITISH DESCRIPTION_ that I have ever read...🤭
Ed, I'm sure you are well aware of the high flying Spitfire pilot that engaged the JU-86R, Prince Emanuel Galitzine. However, it is worth noting that his light blue high altitude camouflage is available in War Thunder as a skin on the MK. IX. It's pretty cool, always a favorite story of mine. Wasn't aware of the Welkin's development, thanks for the video.
Ah, great. Now we know how to play a silly game.
Pierre Clostermann, in his book, _’The Big Show’,_ describes the successful interception of a high altitude Bf-109G over Scapa Flow in a Spitfire Mk IV. During the flight, he and his wingman climbed to at least 41,000 ft.
@@kiereluurs1243 See the note at the bottom of the spitfire photo. The plane in the game is modeled after a little known event and a is good tribute. I'd say the silly game has brought far more people into the study of the history of aviation than gatekeepers like you. -An airline pilot.
@@stealth9639I think you make a good point. I had noticed quite a few people posting comments on aviation history channels who appeared to be gamers. Hadn't really condsidered that computer games/simulators had got a lot of people interested in aircraft/aviation history who previously p never had any interest in the subject. Not into games/simulators myself. However, reckon this "crossover" interest is a good thing.
You've done it again, Ed.
I knew nothing of this before.
Thank you.
☮
Thanks Mr Ed Nash
Shoe🇺🇸
Excellent video, Ed. Thanks.
Can we (again) just stop to admire the Whirlwind's perfect shapes?
Great stuff! Best vid on the little-known Welkin that I've seen.
Thanks..I looked at the photos of the Welkin and thought "Hornet"....
Welkin is noticable close to the german word Wolke, meaning cloud as well.
Welkin is a Saxon word, the Anglo Saxon language was basically a modification of ancient/old high German, so that makes perfect sense. A lot of English "low" words (like mother, brother, sister) are Saxon derived where others are from the French (Beef, Pork and others).
@@rosiehawtrey Well english at all is a bastard of a language that confuses the hell out of anyone not born with it XD
Never knew any of this. Marvellous viewing. Thanks from the old Aussie.
The Welkin, though meant for a different role, reminds me of the F7F Tigercat. Both were potential speed demons with all that HP.
Several of the Welkin photos show the aircraft using engines with the same anti-clockwise (from front) rotating propellers. Checkout time point 6.10 for example. A very informative video.......well done Ed.
Yes... there weren't any reverse-rotation Merlins until the 130/131 pair for the Hornet
I'd never heard of the Welkin Ed. Excellent video, lot's of interesting info. Thanks a lot.
Brilliant. Thank you, Mr. Nash.
Love your work. You almost got me to appreciate the Welkin but I really have a problem with seafood.
Plus you will never ever be able to sway my perpetual adoration away from the most perfect looking plane of ww2 the Whirlwind.
Gold! Another triumph!
I always thought that a Whirlwind powered the Bristol Taurus would have been really interesting.. It would have made a really good low altitude strike fighter and wouldn't need Merlins.
Hey, even better, what if the Whirlwind got early Centauri? Yikes, that would have been frightening indeed!
A really elegant aircraft - like most of Teddy Petter's designs. Surprising that one or two weren't kept on post-war at Farnborough or Boscombe Down to continue investigation into high altitude flight and compressibility.
They had jets by then. That's why.
@@JohnyG29 There was still a lot to learn about aerodynamics and wing design that wasn't dependent on the propulsion unit. The Meteor III had a critical Mach number of only .74 and a fairly low operational ceiling as it's rate of climb dropped considerably above 31,000ft. The Welkin didn't just fly high, it was designed to fight at altitude so there was plenty of good data to be had.
Yet another excellent upload and regarding another aircraft I did not know . Thanks .
Thanks for the knowledge on a little known aircraft.
Fascinating story of a little known British aircraft. Thankyou!
Very interesting that it was better for the Allies that the Ju-86 made it back to let the Luftwaffe know that the jig was up. Had it been shot down it could have been explained as another cause.
Funny thing is germans DID show up at high altitude in 1945 over Britain again, but with Arado 234 jets which probably were just too fast for Welkins to intercept
Another excellent video. I learned a few things-Thanks!
What was the purpose of the appendage aft or the fin? Was there an installation in it or purely aerodynamic?
Excellent question - It was purely aerodynamic. It was an early example of what is now called an "anti-shock body" - to smooth out the airflow disturbance aft of the junction of the tailplane and rudder. Petter was one of the first to use such a system, - the "bullet" fairing on the intersection of the tailplane and rudder of the Whirlwind was another example. - It's strange that Petter seemed to have just come up with the idea intuitively and used it without any accompanying research, it was only later in the 1950s that Richard Whitcomb at NASA and Dietrich Kuchemann at the RAE came out with research to explain why it worked.
@@johndell3642 many thanks for you swift and detailed reply, cheers.
Nice presentation thanks
Another super video, thanks Ed.
The interesting thing about such high-altitude, pressurised aircraft like the Junkers, is that the Welkins wouldn't have even needed to actually shoot them down on their own. All they would've needed to do was compromise the pressurisation. This would force the Junkers down to an altitude that normal fighters could reach.
Indeed. The Mosquito XV I mention only had 4x.303 machine guns. Guess that was considered enough to put holes in a ju 86.
Loss of pressurization would not force the aircraft to descend while over enemy territory. I think a little discomfort is preferable to risking interception. The cabin altitude while pressured was already 24,000 feet. The pilot had been breathing oxygen long enough to purge much of the nitrogen from his tissues.
@@gort8203 Yes, it would. The crew would pass out briefly, if they weren't wearing oxygen masks.
@@gort8203 You're wrong. The Ju 86P's cabin was pressurised to 3,000m (roughly 10,000 feet). Above such altitude, most people quickly lose consciousness.
@@anzaca1 I thought the video said 24,000 feet, but I guess that was referring to the cabin altitude of the Welkin. But even if the JU 86 was pressurized to 10,000 feet, each crewmember would still have their oxygen mask immediately available and don it immediately if pressurization was lost, so there was no danger of losing consciousness. This is standard practice in all pressurized aircraft flying at high altitude for obvious reasons.
Thanks. Well done.
Another fascinating video Ed!
Thanks mate.
With regard to the English Electric Canberra. I have seen one on static display many times, and what I found most remarkable, was how tiny the aircraft is.
I always love British twin engine fighters, elegant looking beasts. This must’ve been a stepping stone in the Hornet’s development.
Different company. The Mosquito was the stepping stone in the Hornet's design.
@@JDWDMC yeah, I know. Both De Havilland planes. Given the similarities between both the Whirlwind and the Mosquito and the Welkin and Hornet lead me to believe the designers peaked at each other’s notes.
Not even close
A great interesting video and a beautiful airplane I have never heard of. What about the P61 Black Widow?Have a good one Mr.Felton.
I remember reading about this aircraft on wikipedia many moons ago.
Very good overview.
Be cool to have a collaborative with Greg’s aircraft..Ed
The guy has forgotten more about aircraft than I'll ever know 😁
Excellent.
Lovely clean design, typical of Teddy Petter.
...A 1/48 scale kit of this would be great...
Planet Models PLT164, if you can find one (one release in 2007, second release in 2010). Resin, so not cheap. In 1/72 there is a vac-form and a Czechmaster resin kit
Approximately a 45 cm wingspan !
The Brits had such cool names for their aircraft.
They did come up with the P-51's name afterall.
It seems to have been a deliberate policy in the British forces to give aircraft, vehicles and even items like personal weapons distinctive and memorable names, rather than the US system of a string of letters and numbers which were more likely to be confused in moments of stress.
Interesting aircraft, never knew of this one. Please do one on the Hornet/Sea Hornet
Can we get a video about the Ju-86P? I'd never heard of this diesel powered recon plane.
Ahhhhhhhh I was going to say they are all piston Canberra's. The Vickers submission for the requirement even has a Canberra type rounded nose and bubble canopy! Great vid!
Lol yes, and the meteor, which Petter played a role in. You can see the evolution, cant you?
The big lesson Petter learnt was that fat high aspect ratio wings were no good for high altitude flight (unless you didn't need to manoeuver) Canberra set many altitude records with its short thin wings. Canberra (and Meteor to a certain extent) was (were) sorta high altitude Welkin done right. If 'altitude at all cost' is the aim, than the stretched wing B57s & U2 are the answer.
An interesting video. I remember reading somewhere of another "snag" at extreme altitude, where the speed of sound is slower and lift from the thin atmosphere less. Due to the span, in a turn the inner wing could stall and the outer wing, travelling faster, approach the speed of sound.. ?? ???
Very interesting. Thanks for your efforts and for posting.
The Welkin is a good looking plane and it's design wasn't for nothing, as it led to the English Electric Canberra, a great plane for the UK and the US.
One minor correction the word welkin comes from not old but middle English being first used in the 1100's so probably a Norman import as it comes originally from Old High German(like most of the so called English language)
'So-called'?? English is a Germanic language, don't think anyone has ever argued otherwise.
@@duncanhamilton5841 English is not just a Germanic language the English nation should arguably be called Atlantic Germans to distinguish themselves from the Baltic Germans who live in Germany. linguistics and Y chromosome genetics confirm this
@@davidmcintyre8145 I see the logic, but to extend it further shouldn't it be the Atlantic Island Indo-Europeans, Baltic Indo-Europeans, Smeared Themselves Across North America Indo-Europeans, Everything Here Kills You Indo-Europeans, Hobbiton Indo-Europeans, and so on?
@@duncanhamilton5841 Most like us Scots acknowledge that we are the children of immigrants but the English do not
@@davidmcintyre8145 Well we can thank the Victorians for that nonsense. My paternal family is lowland/border Scots and Sussex, maternally is East Anglian and Welsh.
However... at what point do you draw the line and identify or belong to a particular group and say that enough time has passed from that migratory point?
I consider myself English - born and raised in Sussex. Despite my Scottish name I've no claim to being anything other than English. In theory you and I will share an ancestor at some point, yet you're Scottish, I'm English.
NB: I'd say English exceptionalism is quite regional - cities like Manchester, Liverpool, London, and the Midlands belt are often very conscious of their immigratory past. The Cornish/Basque/Breton separatists take it to a kind of reverse extreme though
May we have the DeHavilland Hornet and Sea Hornet please?
The Brits had the best looking twin prop planes....The Whirwind just HAD to be great. It looked like it.
I don't think any twin engine ever was prettier than thr P-38.
@@kyle857 ahem ..F7F Tigercat , Whirlwind and the Mossie all say differently ..
Thanks!
There's a pub in Liverpool,part of Sir JD Neverspoon's empire, called the Welkin but I'm not sure what it's named after?
I do know about the Welkin but it was a fairly brief mention which lacked your details.
Hi Ed, i can´t see this plane without remember the I Ae. 30 Ñancú, an Argentinian prototype equipped with two Merlins. I am sure you know what i am talking about, right?
Oh thanks a lot , now i have to look up if its the short or long ironing board variants of the B26.
Also, NORMALAIR was a Westland Subsidiary that went on to make Aircraft pressurisation equipment - that was then taken over by Garrett and then Honeywell.
Odd that they didn't think that they could have swapped out the cannon tray for one with cameras and convert them into high-altitude photo recon aircraft. Or would that be too ironic?
Not much point, with the superior (especially in range) PR Mosquito variant already available by the time a Welkin PR could have been in service
The RAF had PR versions of both the Mosquito and Spitfire. The latter served long after the war. The later Griffon engined Spitfire PR XIX was quite a beast (and very beautiful to these eyes) and still holds the piston engined altitude record at 51,500 ft.
Petter did work on a high-altitude night bomber conversion of the Welkin. It would have had a second crewman to work a "Gee" navigation aid and a forward-looking version of HS2 radar in the nose. It would have carried no cannon armament, instead carrying two slim 2,000 Ib bombs. In 1944 Petter fell out with the management of Westlands but the RAF arranged for him to move to English Electric and take his design projects with him. At English Electric Petter continued to work on the high-altitude Welkin bomber design- first increasing the chord of the wings and then replacing the Merlins with jets - the result was the Canberra, and of course, the Canberra was the pre-eminent high-altitude recce aircraft of the RAF through the rest of the century.
Fascinating aeroplanes.
I wonder why they didn't just try to make the nose one engine if they couldn't get a good beam to chord number? They had to have known about the success of the ta 152 right? Well maybe not. They needed two engines with a much weaker engine but that wasn't an issue with the griffon, so I wonder. You could see those wings were too thick though, too bad, looked pretty cool.
There's a project that is trying to build a Whirlwind from scratch.
Whirlwind Fighter project
I think Kelly Johnson took inspiration for the u2 from this airplane
Not really; it’s the aerodynamics of high altitude flight that dictate design features. Light weight and high lift…like a sailplane. Many aircraft intended for that mission are similar in appearance.
@@jacksons1010ikely it worked the other way around and Petter had been looking at the Liberator and it's Davis wing. Good for range but not so for altitude and unstable too.
I hope examples of this aircraft are on display, as the excuse of rain damage can't be used with these.
Fascinating.
I find it interesting that the Air Ministry specified Left-And-Right turning Merlins -- after insisting that Lockheed build them P-38s with Right-hand-only rotation in their Lightning I export order. I guess they wised up.
A turbo-prop Whirlwind, sporting a nice pair of PT6's could have been a useful tool . . . 'Time' is so cruel : )
(Although, Britain's corner shops may well have run low on cans of 'Esso Blue' & 'Pink Paraffin' as a result)
Surprising it wasn’t employed for reconnaissance or leaflet drops or something of that nature
Long winged Hornet....
LOL...Tobogganing down the stairs...being British I fully understand what this means and then also understand what is being said/explained but I love the thought of the offical report having this and all the engineers, desingers etc...going "hmm yes", (nodding heads) as is just plain, simple and to the point. No..."the Y axis reacted in X way during B manouvre etc etc". A few words can easily replace a paragragh and have more impact in a very British way :)
Fuselage is very reminiscent of the Meteor
OK, I understand and accept the compressibility issues; but just as the rate of roll issues, so what? The a/c was not going to be diving down on the prey; it was just up there to retain control of the higher altitudes.
You say « … would be fitted with counter rotating propellers » but pictures show they were rotating the same direction. Was it just a plan that never was finalized?
This reminds me alot of the BV 155
wow me first, also kool plane, vary interesting
Hail the algorithm!
#Aloha
66th!!
@@kiereluurs1243 wow 66th? you vary slow to comment
I thought the Spitfire mk 9 was the low altitude (clipped wing) aircraft?
Curious as to what the notch on the front corner of the right (or is it left?) wing is? (When I saw it at the beginning of the video I thought it was battle damage but that cannot be the case ...)
I think it's the clear fairing for the wing marker light.
Was it not the changing of the Whirlwind props from the initial design choice that cocked everything on the engines
yes it was ..shame
"Welkin"? Give me strength.
Whelk?
Winkle?
Westland Foreskin?
I've read the Welkin was used for experimental liquid oxygen engine trials. Are there any facts/ results /reports on this? Obviously since no one continued the research it wasn't that successful; still intrigued.
In my opinion it's a very pretty and damned impressive aircraft. I would like to see them have a chance to work out the compressibility issue.
When you positively, absolutelym have to get to altitude overnight. UK Ex. Now with more cannon!
What notable aircraft you manage to dig up, Ed.