Hardtail vs Soft Tail vs Full Suspension - Getting experiMENTAL - Pros and Cons of Each
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- Hardtail vs soft tail vs full suspension - What's the difference? Today we get experiMENTAL and compare three very different bikes on the same trail, to talk about the differences of each. As always, I learned a lot getting experimental. What did you learn? If you could have one of these bikes, which would you choose? By far, the fastest bike was the Maniak, but that doesn't necessarily make it the most "fun."
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Soft tail seems like a design that still has something to offer for MTB. I suppose you'd want to have a standard for the 'soft' part.
Such a fun comparison! Good on Ibis for letting you borrow the bike for all this fun.
Totally agree with you on going from old geometry to new is spot on!
I switched in July from a 1995 Specialized Rockhopper hardtail with a Quadra 21r to a 2021 Specialized Chisel.
What a difference!
Love both of them but the new one is amazing for Midwest single tracks. 👍
Love the back to back comparison’s!!!! Great break down on how each bike felt and rode!!! Great job Steve, looking forward to the next one!!! 👍👍
Great video, Steve. Thank you. It's awesome to see how much fun the classic Ibis still can be. Love your experimental videos. Would be great to see your Spot with the PNW coaster seat post. This might be a smooth and fast ride, too.
I have a tendency to ignore riders that tell you that you need the latest and greatest. I will admit that newer technology; disc brakes, better suspension, dropper posts for example, make the riding experience safer and more enjoyable. I started riding mtn bikes in 1991 and even with my 1st "cheap" mtn bike, a Schwinn High Sierra, fully rigid chromoly, I enjoyed myself. So much so that I bought a more capable hardtail, a Giant Cadex, less than 6 months later. A year and a half later, I bought my first full suspension, a 1993 GT RTS 2. I was hooked and I still am, plus I am back to riding a hardtail (plus).
Ride what you have to within your current bikes capabilities, enjoy, and upgrade as you need.
first! nice video! I have a bike shop here in Brasil and I use your videos as reference for my shop purchases!
I often wonder what a bike with XC 100mm rear suspension (very lightweight, efficient climbing and pedaling) with a 160mm fork would be like. Just enough rear suspension to take the sting off while still being as efficient as possible. While at the same time having generous travel on the front.
That would be a fun experiment. Most 100mm bikes are pretty underbuilt and cc focused. I would think a 160/100 would be pretty unbalanced, but we never know until we try...
@@hardtailparty Why would it be unbalanced? You ride hardtails with 140+/0. That's very unbalanced.
hardtails are indeed unbalanced, no argument there.
Thanks for this video, Steve. Question…
You mentioned you feel more “on” the bike with full suspension vs the hardtails. I had the Ragley Mmmbop and have 2019/20/22 Stumpjumper/Evos and it feels like I am “in” the bike on all these bikes except for my recent purchase, the Ripley AF and Ripmo v2. Both bikes I felt like I was a bit “higher” on the bike. Because you’ve ridden the Mmmbop and the current Stumpy Evo, do you also feel like you’re “on” the bike with the '22 Stumpy Evo?
Btw you’re probably not going to pinch flat those tires or any tires with ENVE’s current rims because they have those wide bead walls. Other companies have those now too and they’re great addition. No more running inserts to protect from pinch flats.
I actually had switched my ENVE M630 wheel to Berd Hawk 27 with the same 2.4 size tires and man, it feels like I floated over those small chattery stuff on my Ripley AF. It almost feels like riding my plus tire setup, 27.5x2.8 Stumpy. Those Berd spokes with Berd Hawk series rims are very compliant, I also gained climbing traction on the Ripley AF and that I haven’t pinged or rim striked the Hawk’s vs the M630’s.
The stumpy Evo has a SUPER low bb, even in the high setting. I definitely feel "in" that bike, but I also pedal strike like crazy. The bb is lower than I want.
I've been wondering how different Softail is from elastomer seat post. Maybe a bit less bumps through the pedals? Otherwise it seems they should perform the same to me
One suspends your butt, the other suspends the entire bike. Kind of like wearing padded shorts vs cushy shoes.
What's the weight of your Maniac for reference?
I don't know exactly, I'm always swapping parts to review them. I'm going to guess 28lbs as set up here.
I have a 2020 Moots 29er Moutaineer YBB and am running a 130mm Fox Grips2 . Geo of 74.5 STA & 67.5 HTA, with 2.4 tires.
I absolutely love this bike!
My FS is a 2022 Orbea Occam LT which is very nice as well, but I have to say, my go to is the Moots ybb for my local trails.
With that being said, if I am going out of town , say Moab or someplace I have never ridden before I will always choose the Occam, simply because it is more versatile on variable terrain.
Don't get me wrong, the Moots is very capable and super fun to ride in most circumstances but obviously a modern FS will be much more forgiving in the chunk & drops.
I started riding on Hard tails without suspension back in the day, which I probably why I have a soft spot for loving the simplicity of a HT and the YBB.
I encourage anyone who has never really spent much time riding a HT or Soft tail to try one out for yourself.
I have long said that I would give up every MTB innovation since 1988 before I would want to give up my dropper. That includes all suspension, 29 inch wheels, tubeless, disc brakes, v-brakes, 1x drivetrains, and new geometry.
It’s amazing how varied opinions can be. I rode a 1996 Foes with 71 degree head angle and 1050mm wheelbase for 20-some years and loved it until I rode a modern bike and then I hung it up and never rode it again. Been riding a rigid fatboy and also a newer enduro rig, and I have to say all those innovations you mentioned are welcome upgrades and I’ll never go back. I have endo’d so many times on that old bike on single-black trails and not one time since. I haven’t had a flat in 5 years and I love one-finger braking. I like having a dropper but I sometimes forget to use it. I’m with you on the V-brakes though.
Maybe a review of a modern softail, like a Moots or BMC to see how far softails have come is in order.
I had a Trek Stache 29+ for years, always wished there was a soft tail version of it. Great video comparison.
THANK YOU FOR Softtail content! - Have 2005 KHS Solo One - Soft Tail Single Speed 26" with modern touches - Love it. Same old GEO as the other KHS ST from the time, but with a horizontal slider drop out. I hope to get a modern softtail in future. Most fun I have on two wheels.
Check out the Funk La Ruta 29+ soft tail/FS frame, which you can get with custom geo for no extra charge.
Enjoy the channel. Did you ever do a video on 2.6 vs 2.8 tires for a hard tail? I have hardtail with 40mm rims.
I 2nd that. I'd like to see how a 2.6, 2.8 & 3.0 behave. The wider the tire, the harder it seems to find. I'm preparing myself for the eventuality I might need to go from 3.0 to 2.6. Maybe I'd be happier
3rd it
Up until about two years ago I was riding a 2005 XC hard tail with an 80mm fork and cantilever rim brakes. It had a carbon rear triangle designed to add compliance. I never felt the need to upgrade because I was having so much fun on that bike. Eventually though, it got to be too much to keep it running mechanically.
I was amazed at the difference when I upgraded to a modern hard tail. The thing was, I never felt like I was missing something on the old bike because it was so much fun. Yeah, I rode slower but I enjoyed the challenge of picking my way through tough sections or letting the bike run as it bounced under me on fast downhills.
A couple years down the road and I often wonder if I’m missing something something not riding a FS. Everyone seems to tell me I am. Then I get back on the bike and realize how much fun I’m having and think, maybe I should just upgrade my wheels instead.
Point is, you are spot on about having fun on the bike you ride. Yeah, there may be times when my hard tail isn’t the best tool for the job but even then I’m still enjoying the ride.
Thinking back through the bikes I’ve owned since I started mountain biking in the 80s, even on those old stiff forked bikes, we were still having a blast.
Totally understand your mindset at 51 years old I’m still enjoying my 2009 Jamis XTrail2.0 it does what I need and enjoy and I stay with in my limits and not breaking myself 👍🚵🏻😂
My old 26er hardtail got stolen and now I'm running a new hardtail with 27.5x2.8. It feels faster to me but the big tires with low pressure definitely smooth the trail a little. I haven't used a drop post on a trail myself. I feel like I would like a fork lockout more. And about gravel bikes, the 90s MTB were good dirt road bombers, unlike modern MTBs. My gravel bike has a sus fork. A MTB it is not, but it's fun.
Didn't GT have a soft tail recently? And a soft tail gravel bike? Using floating stays and their "triple triangle"?
Believe everyone when they tell you that the absolute most amazing upgrade you can make to any bike which goes off road, (gravel / cross & mtb too) is the addition of a dropper post. No other improvements come close.
Is there anything that bridges the gap between FS tracking, hardtail locked in feel, and is low maintenance and not a huge price hike over hardtail? I was hoping softtail might be it (even though nobody makes softtail enduros/DHBs, so that wouldn't really help me), but based on what you're saying in this video, it doesn't seem like softtail is that different from hardtail.
Great video! I agree, there is a place for modern softails. Especially with the explosion of the gravel scene. Also I know it’s Hardtail Party but as a fellow Spitfire owner, we need a bike check on your Spitty. I anticipate Banshee’s website will get more traffic than normal today.
I'll do a bike check on all my non-hardtails soon.
I always think that my downhill bike disconnects you from the trail like your riding a shaggy lazy boy.
Moots still makes the YBB, although the geo is still closer to the Ibis than your Binary at a 68 HA and a ~74 SA with a 120mm fork. However, it is designed for 2.6 29" tires and a Boost rear axle, so some thought towards modern standards have been made. One of my old friends still rides a 26" YBB she has owned for over 20 years.
Yes, a modern ybb would be cool. Moots and litespeed and lynskey still habe their geo stuck in the 90s
I am running a 130mm fork on my 2020 Moots Ybb, which has changed the HT angle to 67°. Being made of titanium , paired with the YBB and 2.6 tires, makes for a super comfortable ride that is capable of ripping down most trails at high speed.
There is something to be said about how riding a hard tail or soft tail makes you look at the trail that is in front of you in a more deliberate way.
Being less forgiving gives thought to choosing better lines.
I love it !
I've been wondering at what PSI I should run my 26x2.0's. 30 PSI is the minimum, but it still quite firm on some parts of the trail.
BMC a couple of years ago released their new XC race bike as a soft tail
Using an elastomer at the seat stay/seat tube junction. It’s not party Geo but it’s a modern soft tail.
can you do a review on the niner ROS 9
Also love seeing the full circle from early MTbBs we rode to modern gravel bikes. Other than the drop bars, they seem to have a lot in common.
most gravel bikes have a 70-71 degree head angle. slacker and longer than any 90's mtb. and designed around wide 700c. my 2021 diverge has more clearance than my 98 stumpjumper lol. so.. not even close. edit to add the disc brakes 1x clutch derailleur and the overal size dwarfing the stumpy despite both fitting me. it really makes me wonder why people refer to gravel bikes a 90's mtb. they are a whole different beast.
@@High_Octane Throw in the thin tires and I'll give you that. Although the 26" tires on my mid 90s XC bike were nothing compared to the 2.4-2.6 we ride today.
One big feature of the Banshee bikes is that the long chainstays make them climb technical rock sections really well. Great bike for Sedona.
I actually climb tech better with short stays
@@hardtailparty I wonder if that's almost a body shape thing. As I'm the opposite, climb rocky tech better on long stays, but I'm also the opposite shape from you, long legs, short torso. Could be related.
@@jamescarroll5720 do you stay seated when you climb rocky tech, or are you out of the saddle?
But have you ever driven a rock crawling jeep on twisty mountain roads? Hahaha
Yes, it's awful! Kind of like riding an Enduro bike on a green trail. :)
Fun. I love my rigid Kona Unit 29er with mechanical discs and a Surly Karate Monkey fork. Great vid.
A 2013 Unit is my main ride :) Had to put a sus fork on a few years back due to shoulder issues. I've often told riding buddies that a softail version of that bike would be the absolute perfect bike for our local trails......90% of which were built in the 90's and 00's......the trails are designed for this geo.
Nice comment about not being wrapped up in what the media says about the type of suspension you need. Lately I've been riding my son's Chameleon and fell in love all over again with hardtails.
Man, I really wanted a KHS soft tail in the early 2000’s to keep the hardtail vibe but to take the edge off off the rocks. Never got to try one but how fun would a modern geo soft tail be?
My car dream is a 2018 Subaru WRX STI Type RA😂
Moots makes a modern soft tail with their Mountaineer with the YBB suspension. Of course you're paying Moots prices, starting at $8,500.
I am one of those gram counting Strava chasing xc hardtail mountainbikers l love the speed the fitness aspect and the progression in my riding and riding somewhat tech stuff on one my is lots of fun.
I've made the same comparison about my hardtail -- that it feels like a rollercoaster ride. And I love rollercoasters so I guess it's a match made in heaven.
Nice video as always! That actually got me thinking about tire pressure again, specifically for my new Trek Roscoe 7 which also comes with 2.6ers. As a 95kg rider I currently go for 27psi in the back and about 25 in the front. I already noticed that it doesn't roll over as smoothly as I'd like it to in my local woods with rooty single tracks. Thing is - I gotta get out of the city first to get into the woods and I'd like it to not feel like pedaling through molasses. So, what tire pressures would you recommend in this case as a starting point? Or should I try skinnier tires maybe as an upgrade? Or a 2.6er XC tire in the back?
I recommend.experomenting with different pressures.
I think the tires you use are what matters most. Heavy slow-rolling sticky tires are very slow on pavement and easy single track. Switching to a light-weight fast rolling tires makes a huge difference. I'm fond of the 2.6 Maxxis Rekon front and 2.4 Maxxis Rekon rear. Tire pressure should be set to give the best performance on singletrack.
@@marksandoval5361 Yeah, that's what I noticed so far. I'm thinking about keeping the 2.6" Bontrager XR4 in the front and maybe try a 2.35" XR2 in the back for faster rolling speeds. Or maybe keep the XR2 at 2.6" - I'm not quite sure, yet which route I gonna take.
Also consider 2.6 Rekon front and 2.6 Ikon rear.
@@marksandoval5361 Or a Bontrager XR3, actually in 2.4". That also looks like a decent compromise.
Couldn't more happy that this video exists!
What trail is this? I’m headed to Sedona in February and want to make a list of trails to check out!
I Remember when the Raleigh activator 2 came out in the UK I was a soft tail too
Sure would like to see a brand new Ibis hardtail come out!
Hardtail party on a fullsus! Oh yeah!
I'm digging the shirt, Steve. Love it.
did I miss the fully in the mix?
Awesome video!
Another important difference is weight, long rides on a 35lb enduro bike is no fun LOL. Maybe a HardTail Party fleet update video in the future :)
Fortunately none of these bikes weigh 35 lbs
Maybe your next custom bike needs to be a modern-slack softtail
That's what I'm thinking...
Very interesting comparison between these bikes! Do you have any experience with the decoupling system a well-known American bike brand uses in it's hardtails?
you're going to have to be a tad more specific, I'm not quite sure what you're referring to. A folding/decouple bike that disassembles into pieces for suitcase travel?
Sorry! I was referring to the iso speed decoupling system. It is not really a soft tail, but maybe does the same thing when riding seated. Maybe you have experience with both systems? Cheers!
Speaking of soft-tails, maybe it's time for you to review a Trek Procaliber?
I've tried to get one in. No luck. I don't know that I'd consider it a soft tail, but it would definitely be interesting to review.
@@hardtailparty Yea, it’s a pseudo soft-tail? Or maybe a soft seat post? I don’t know…
@@ryanmagsam260 yeah, I think soft seat post is more like it. Regardless, I've been curious to try it. Same with the gt zaskar (though the chainstays are a mile long)
It would be nice too get your hands on a litespeed Unicoi. Its ti and looks like it would be a blast
A modern geo unicoi would be cool
@@hardtailparty didn't mean the the thumbs down. What i meant was back here on the the east coast some of those slack . low. long. bikes are a hand full to handle on the tight twisty rocky tech we have here.Its like you said. You have to pick a bike that works best for the trails you ride
Love the channel im from Australia 61 years old I sacked my full suspension bikes and just ride hard tails love being bounced around and having to be dialed in.keep up the good work guys.cheers.martin
Great video Steve!
Thoughts/opinions regarding soft tail design:
Skateboard trucks use polyurethane bushings for a spring element. Just as you stated in the video, it seems that polyurethane elastomers offer different rebound and dampening qualities depending on hardness, shape, and perhaps microscopic bubble size in the emulsion. Further, elastomers offer quick tuning changes - say, if you’re ripping float singletrack one day, and want to embark on a bikepacking jaunt the next.
One may be able to integrate flattened stays mid-way on the stays to provide a seamless hinging element so that one the wider ‘squished’ stays can allow tire clearance with the wider squished areas pinching in the area between the spokes and rim where there’s more space - provided that one chooses to build with steel/Ti.
As you may be able to tell, I’m hot about soft tails. As a fifty-something rider, my body appreciates a little more give that isn’t necessarily a full squish.
Oh yeah - Pro-Flex had nitrogen-infused elastomers as Springs on their rear suspension and girder forks, iirc
Awesome comparison! I know this wasn't the point of the video, but I'm curious how this Spitfire V3.2 would stack up against a Ripley AF in terms of capability and playfulness. Thanks for the great videos!!!
Quite different bikes. That's the sort of thing i cover in my bike consultation service.