0:31 The first movie was not "divisive" in the slightest. The majority loved it. 4:44 Yes, superhero fatigue set in and the bubble burst (quietly nudges Deadpool & Wolverine Blu-ray out of view). *No sir, Joker 2? Bad movie was bad. No excuses.*
Between the ending of Joker and the villain we know from Batman there's a vast narrative chasm that could have been explored. Just because the sequel sabotaged itself doesn't mean there was no need for a sequel.
One way to rescue it - Todd Phillips multiverse and Arthur goes into the Hangover universe and goes on the 4th Hangover film which is his stag do where he marries Harley. Chow ends up revealing himself to be Batman and they duel it out. Just an idea…
Not sure how I forgot to mention this in the video, but... REASON #6 DC is a Damaged Film Brand ....and musical isn't the way to win back skeptical fans
I’m not sure that a lot of the casual audience closely associate these two Joker movies with the DCEU, which is where I feel all the damage to DC has been done. To me I feel like anything Batman related still draws a level of interest (take The Batman for example). The DCEU is very damaged and those particular types of DC movies, but I think films like these stand apart.
@@Daniel_2626 I would argue the casual fan doesn't draw any associations. They don't know the difference between DCEU, Joker, DCU or any of it. They just know DC and DC has been struggling.
@@SeanChandlerTalksAbout that’s a fair point, but I think Batman/Joker as brands in of themselves have much more of a pull than DC even does that some won’t really think much of DC’s struggles when it comes to those characters.
Yeah I watched so many DC movies and they all tanked one after an other a friend even asked me why I was going to see The Flash and Shazam 2 and Aquaman 2 since it was going to be rebooted anyways i said it was a chance to say Goodbye before the reboot and I still Love those characters even if it means I'm a Die Hard fan besides I got experience those movies they way were meant to be experienced on the Big screen
The fact that they didn't even test screen the movie is insane. It's not even a 50 million movie like the first, it's a 200 million dollar movie, how do you not test the water
@@norm-bb3bb Apparently (Screen Rant report with a reputable source to back them up) Warner Bros elected to avoid test screenings after the final cut was done (well after eight months ago). I'm sure a lot of the film was somewhat similar, that's what they shot, but the structure and some of the scenes could have been heavily altered (proof enough is that in the trailers there are quite a few scenes of Lady Gaga that are missing from the theater cut, but since they are in the trailers it is somewhat safe to assume they were in a cut not long before the final one).
@@eugenio_iacono Then who was the guy who sent me the leak? Because he was right with the editing and the unnecessary scenes and that Gaga was supporting when all her fans thought she was co lead
@@norm-bb3bb Maybe Screen Rant and their source are wrong, it is possible, but it is hard to believe since a lot of scenes are missing and are in the trailers. But it's not like I am an insider or anything.
@@vincentlospinuso7232 I honestly don't think so. He got paid a fortune to insult moviegoers the way he wanted. Regardless of how many millions Joker 2 ends up costing WBD, Phillips is laughing all the way to the bank.
@@VALonTH-cam Definitely. He could’ve made Joker 2 something that many people would get behind and would be very uplifting for many people. But his approach was very antagonistic and now everyone is against him.
Someone else pointed this out but: 2018-2019: Captain Marvel, Aquaman, and Joker all made $1 billion 2023-2024: their sequels open poorly/flop at the box office 😅 Times and tides change real fast 😂 as for the movie itself, I thought it was mediocre. At least Look Back was a nice cleanser afterwards, that film is sitting in my top 10 of the year atm. Lightings going hard too Sean 🔥
Surprised captain Marvel and Aquaman broke a billion as they're both pretty average. Joker was a dark drama about mental health decline so surprised there were so many fans for such stuff. But it's hard to say what fans like.
@@jonfreeman9682Those were both very mainstream-friendly comic book movies coming out in a relatively quiet time of year. Also The Hunger Games had previously been something of a sleeper hit in a similar time of year, so similarly female-skewing movie PLUS big franchise brand was always going to be a big deal! Might be even more relevant given how The Marvels got curbstomped by another Hunger Games movie. And let’s not kid ourselves: the main audience for most comic book movies is teenagers, if only because they’re the biggest demographic with disposable income. Also notice how Iron Man 3 was a billion-dollar hit despite being so divisive since it was the next MCU movie after The Avengers. Captain Marvel was in a similar situation regarding coming out right before Endgame.
This has to be one of the best movie analyses I've ever heard, and I listen to a lot. It was short, to the point, and made each point back to back. Excellent work, wow!
I doubt Hollywood wasn't expecting Venom 3 to have to be the movie to save the box office this fall! I love it, bring it on! Venom has saved them twice already myaswell make it 3 times!
First reason would be that even with the reason that it's bad, it also disrespects the first film and doesn't build on what came before, which is what every sequel should do but it tries so hard to be its own thing that it becomes a trainwreck in the end. Second reason is that we didn't want this and the only reason why this is made is because of the success of the first film that made a billion dollars and got a lot of Oscar nominations.
I love the first movie. But after watching this, I feel like the director wrote this movie to punish me liking the first one. It’s like they purposely made sure that this movie was the opposite of the first one. I’m still pissed I spent my money to go see it in theaters.
For me, it’s because Joker 2 wasn’t necessary. The first one is perfect for me because I love that film. And it definitely deserved both the 2 Oscars and the Golden Lion. But Hollywood wants to turn a should have been a standalone movie into a cash cow sequel. And it didn’t do well. And this is why stand-alone movies like Joker shouldn’t be made into a sequel.
Probably because Halle Berry was a sex icon at the time. Easy on the eyes increases tolerance. Lady Gaga on the other hand is more famous for her voice rather than looks. Especially when you factor in that a considerable portion of society accused her looks as the possibility of being a man.
Had an argument with my brother the day a 2nd movie was announced. Told him this was a bad idea and it never needed a 2nd movie. Glad to see I was right
The thing that confuses me the most about this film, despite enjoying some of it, is why does it have a reason to exist when there were already markers that fueled my skepticism going in, and the first film didn't leave much for a sequel?
I don't know why but I can't stop imagining Deadpool kicking Joker down the stairs (in John Wick 4 fashion) and dancing to Bye Bye Bye while watching this video *LOL!*
Gaga is too serious and Broadway theatrical to play Harley Quinn I knew that from the beginning. Remember VMAs when she performed Applause thats Gaga in a nutshell when she opened the performance like a theater student. It works for her musical career but not for iconic DC comics or Marvel! Harley Quinn was funny AF ,likeable,joyful and heartwarming and spunky!!!
Exactly. Horrible casting right from the beginning. Even without it being a "musical", I think her character portrayal would have drugged down the movie for the critics and comic book fans of Harley
You also have to consider the fact that the economy is doing worse now than in 2019, so people are more sensitive to the cost of movie tickets, and this film just doesn’t seem worth it
Inside Out 2 and DP&W made over a billion dollars. The beeltejuice sequel also performed well. I think people just aren't interested in this sequel. I think Venom coming out in a couple weeks is gonna do really well
I rewatched Joker, a film I really liked, and went to watch Folie A Deux. It's hard to work out what they were thinking. Arthur's character development from the first film is gone. The musical numbers aren't original songs so the film effectively stops whenever there's a musical interlude (and there are a lot of musical interludes). It looks nice and has some great performances, but there's little plot. What a disappointment/waste.
So, Sean, when you talked about Creative Inbreeding, I think Joker 2 is an example of Creative Invasion-a term I've coined. This is when a movie, usually within a franchise, is influenced by different ideas that grossly conflict with what the movie has always been, leaving little to nothing of what the movie used to be. Their identity is practically erased, with people wondering "wtf is this? This isn't what the X has been about. What happened to its identity."
Well we don't know if he's the real Joker or not and who's to say Joker can't be anyone and have multiple characters playing Joker. But the twist he's not the Joker kinda takes away everything they built up.
The only thing is, that's not only a Nolan film, but it's essentially a true story. So you couple Nolan, known for his attention to detail and breathtaking visual imagery, of course people are going to be hype to experience a nuke
Honestly what they should’ve done after joker was make a new genre of Batman movies much more based in reality with several one off character studies of different villains if they were in a more realistic setting Ex: joker and mental health, Bane and substance abuse, Mr. Freeze and terminal illness (And how the failures of the system and our society drove these people to do some of the worst things possible to cope and/or survive)
There's also plenty of people like me that don't EVER like musicals! (Unless they're doing it sarcastically, like South Park.) I knew that there was absolutely no chance that I would ever watch this movie as soon as I heard the word musical! There are some of us who don't even like "the greatest musicals ever made." Because they're STILL musicals!!!🤮🤮🤮!!!!!
I like comic movies, taxi driver, and musicals. Another issue with even trying to appeal to a majority of people into all these genres is that you need to have good singing in a musical of cover songs and in general. Dancer in the Dark that Bjork was in had a lot of similar themes and did the themes far better. Roxie Heart, which Chicago was based on, was a well-done court drama musical. If they would have gone with the more tragic, grounded approach of dancer in the dark or went full-blown dark comedy like Chicago and Roxie Heart or like Cabaret with dark humor and a deeper message It might have sold more people. There were ways to do this far more creatively as a musical. They were covering Sinatra and Shirely Bassey, old jazz, and big band songs you need to be able to sing too. For musicians who watched this, they don't want to hear someone sing a tone-deaf version of the extremely hard song if you go away.
Great analysis Sean! You glossed over it quickly here, probably for spoiler reasons, but the point about being betrayed by the ending has me thinking I will never actually watch this movie now.
I think it's because: 1- It is a musical and, even tho the musical scenes are well made, it is a very niche genre and people who don't like musicals *really* don't like it. 2- It's getting a very bad reception by both critics and audiences 3- People simply weren't pumped up to watch a Joker sequel in the first place.
Musicals can be good for those who enjoy musicals. I'm not a fan of musicals especially as this is serious drama about mental health. But it could still be good if they don't go overboard. Give it a chance.
The musical aspect killed it, period, with a minor assist from having lady Gaga's horrible acting making Harley Quinn an uninteresting character. By the forth or fifth musical set is when people in my theater began to walk out.
@@jonfreeman9682 I already watched the film. The musicals were the best part of it but during the courtroom scenes they felt forced into the narrative. It doesn't help that the film is badly edited.
I don’t count Bohemian Rhapsody as a musical because all of the music is diegetic, so with that said, the highest grossing non-Disney musical of all time is Mamma Mia, at just over 600 mil, followed by the Rio movies at around 500 million (the first one just under, the second one just over). Not counting kids movies (which inherently have the advantage of double viewership, since their parents go with them), the second highest grossing musical of all time is La La Land, at 470. Mamma Mia was marketed as a musical and I don’t remember if La La Land was specifically marketed as a musical, but it at least appealed to an audience that would otherwise like musicals. This new Joker movie is a musical that’s ashamed to be a musical. Musicals can make money (Even Wonka made over 600 million), but they need to stop being ashamed in their musicality. Joker didn’t get the theater nerds and it didn’t get enough of its fanboys before word spread, so it suffered the worst of both worlds.
I heard two things about this movie 1- the guy that made it did it on purpose because of the Looney Tunes movie. 2-the main insult is they try to connected to Christopher Nolan, Batman movie.
what happened was hollywood has new management, new policies, and new directives that include people with the lack of knowledge on how to make an actual good film.
keep in mind i haven’t seen folie a duex, i get if you don’t care for musicals but that always felt like it would make sense to go a musical route for a sequel, in the first one Arthur danced a lot and going farther into the insanity i could see singing. again i haven’t seen the new film but i was always into that idea
For those comparing this movie to The Last Jedi regarding subverting expectations…keep in mind the advertising for that movie was deliberately vague about the plot and the movie was already highly-anticipated, so the vast majority of people who did see the movie opening day most definitely didn’t feel cheated the way they did for this movie. They also probably never thought about the movie afterwards too, unlike a lot of us who did feel cheated.
I’ve noticed that the majority of film related channels on TH-cam who have hated this movie are not necessarily film critics but the channels that I like to call the “IP enthusiast” film channels. The channels that claim to love movies but really only talk about the state of IP driven movies related to Marvel, DC, Star Wars etc. Just a thought 🤔
Thanks for watching. To the point I made in this video, I don't think it's obvious what a sequel would be. So I don't have a pitch for a sequel. I think the first movie is a solid stand alone character piece. It's not actually a good setup for a franchise.
They should have known better though… if you’re going to green light a joker 2 continuing the story of Arthur fleck, it has to be very intriguing to make people wanna sit through that again. The first one is great but I don’t ever need to see it again. I don’t even know when or if I’ll see this one.
I think point 1 and 5 are the strongest. With the marketing it wasn’t even clear that the film was a musical but the trailers honestly seemed intriguing. Coming out of the festival circuit and fan first screenings, however, I think sewered most of the public motivation to go watch this.
After watching this video I don't even want to see It no more and the 2019 movie is my top 10 favorite movies of all time and one of the best theatre experiences I've ever had
The fact that the og made over a billi as a rated R film and it’s sequel didnt even match Morbius on its domestic opening is just absolutely insane lol
In my opinion, the first movie was a masterpiece & didn't need a sequel. I get this was comic book movie, but this wasn't a light hearted comedy that a meaningly sequel could be tacked on to. Nonetheless, I managed my expectations for the sequel, but was still disappointed. There were some good ideas in the movie but none there were fully fleshed out. At the end, I didn't understand what was the point of the movie.
Nice ideas, but my 5 reasons why Joker 2 bomb is simple: 1. Polarizing reception and a D CinemaScore. 2. WB’s poorly executed marketing. 3. It suffers from a lack of substance over style. 4. It doesn’t know what type of movie it wants to be. 5. DC is still hampered by WB’s corporate politics not only did it damaged the DCEU as a whole, but also, it turned into Zaslav’s personal playground.
People are angry that Arthur isn’t The Joker. It’s called “joker”, he is A joker. If you removed the “Arkham” sign and any reference to Gotham, there’s nothing that makes this the DC Joker. He’s an abused kid grown up into a mentally ill man in a terrible city. Anything else is projecting our expectation of The Joker onto him. (Har)Lee’s reaction to him later in the film is the audiences’ misunderstanding of the movie and the character. She wanted the Joker and he was only ever Arthur (just like the critics) Speaking of the music… the reason for the music? He first saw Lee in music therapy and she sang to him. If it was art therapy, Arthur would have been dancing through paintings to woo her in his hallucinations. Lee’s love language is music. She was a privileged upper East sider. She probably had music, voice, dance lessons as the girl of rich parents. This isn’t a musical, it’s the fever dream of a lovestruck, obsessive mental patient. He’s mentally ill, not a mastermind anarchist. Can anyone honestly say that you could see Arthur from Joker1 planning the downfall of Gotham? Outsmarting any of the batmans we’ve seen (Pattinson’s?!). Do you see him making penguin or the riddler bend the knee? Would Bane freeze at the sight of him?See him walk into a room full of mob bosses and walk out unscathed? Manufacture timed explosives, p0is0n gas, fight Batman hand to hand? He was full of swagger as joker, but he wasn’t smarter; he didn’t demonstrate any greater competency, he had no skills other than a good strut. Heck, this was even shown in the 1st movie. Joker’s super moment on the stairs is shown as him just dancing like an idiot (lots of pelvic thrusts) hearing his own music. He was never The Joker. Even at the end of Joker1 we see him in police custody with no sign of a fight. He probably just sat down on the couch and waited for the police. Remember his plan was self h@rm, not murd3r. He didn’t know what to do next. Then he gets rescued by his followers and he stands on top of the car (again, just a strut) Then we see him hunched over, laughing his painful Arthur laugh smoking a cigarette with another counselor in Arkham. He was caught again. The audience wanted to see him powerful, so it did, but he was still Arthur just playing more roles for atttention and love. They wanted Hannibal Lechter but he was always Buffalo Bill
But then why bother drawing on a character in the first place if it has nothing to do with his essence? It's like making a movie called Mickey Mouse and it's just some filthy rodent running around in a field
This movie suffers because it doesn't know what it wants to be and fails because of it. Some people are calling it ambitious; I just see this as a cover word for messy. You will definitely find me talking about this movie come January on Sean's worst movies of the year video.
I have to pat myself on the back for this one. My sister and I made a bet. She's a really big fan of musicals, and I despise literally EVERYTHING about them. When I heard that they were making a musical sequel to a comic book movie/BLEAK psychological thriller, I predicted that not only would this movie BOMB, but that it would become something that created sarcastic memes, and would be ridiculed and made fun of for years! 🎵It looks like I was RIIIIIGHT!!!🎵😂😂😂
I keep talking about it because i love the first movie so much and I'm pissed Todd wanted to destroyed it with this sequel, the sequel isn't canon in my book.
17:03 - I'm more used to hearing "stomp" or "step" on people's toes. I've never heard the phrase "mash on people's toes." Must be an Albany expression.
I mean it grossed 121 million USD in 4-5 days and the budget is 190-200 million USD. I think the movie will definitely recover its budget but might not earn additional profits.
I think the biggest reason it bombed is because of the budget its happened a lot recently where movies have massive budgets but then bomb Oppenheimer was successful and it only cost 100 million flash bombed snd and it cost close to 300 million
My sister has never seen a marvel DC movie. She has no interest, no knowledge about comic book movies but she still went to see Joker 2019. Making this movie a musical court room drama was a bizzare choice. Like why would you choose such a massively niche genre? Soooo many people have find that genre boring, uninteresting and cringy. The performances of this film compared to the OG is the most surprising, bizarre situation. Before the movie came out it felt likely it was gonna make near a billion again
I haven't seen the film. I'll probably catch it on streaming. But I think the main problem wasn't the singing. I think that could've worked if the movie had delivered the goods otherwise. What really seems to have upset people is that these weren't the characters they thought they were. This Joker was never *the* Joker, and this Lee wasn't Harley. That's kind of an interesting twist, in the abstract, but when you're expecting the real Joker and the real Harvey, I could understand why it felt like a gut punch. I think there were clues in the first movie that this wasn't the Joker we know, but I guess some people were late to that realization. (To me, as you alluded to, the big clue was the age difference between Fleck and Bruce in the first movie.)
Tbf I thought the movie was good. I understand though that it is not everyone’s cup of tea since it is a much slower movie than the first one and like you said it is more of a reflection to what happened on the first one. However I have to give the makers some props because they didn’t make it into something completely else or drive it into the DC universe- they still kept the same character arcs but made a movie that many may deem unnecessary.
I’d like to thank everyone who went to go see it last weekend, so that now I don’t have to spend my money ✌🏼 And I can live in a world where only the 1st movie exists
Great video Sean. I know 4 different people just in my personal life who cancelled their tickets due to reviews and word of mouth Personally if you have an interest in this film I think you should go make your own mind up. I was kinda dreading it due to the early reviews but tbh me and my wife both really enjoyed it Anyways take care
I knew it would not be a hit with audiences but I didn't think there would be so much vitriol. I thought it was just a bad, boring movie, not a complete abomination.
For me it's the worst version of Joker in Live action I never hated Jared Letos Joker in SS but this made me truly appreciate it much more and how he tried to do a different take that was it's own thing.
So, I have been looking at the international numbers - specifically Italy where it seems to be fairing decent. Do you think this kind of film may resonate better in different parts of the world? It has a Takashi Miike vibe to it that might play better in certain markets. Now don’t misunderstand me, I don’t think these markets will make a difference but I am curious.
To be frank, I’m really fatigued with Joker and specially with Harley Quinn as characters. Harley Quinn got 4 movies while Poison Ivy and Mr Freeze got 1 and Clayface got zero…
I agree. A counter- argument I say to those who wanted yet another joker story is that we already have a trillion typical iterations of him. Try something else.
It's a shame they still haven't done Harley Quinn right. How is Mad Love so difficult to adapt? And David Ayer's oversexualization of that character was ridiculous
Harley Quinn is not a draw. She's a C list character and people don't buy Harley Quinn comics. She is at best a supporting character and even that she's annoying.
I get your point, but I don't understand why that would be the take away from the video. I'm discussing many factors and many numbers. I could pause on each detail to elaborate on it's literally and technical definition and meaning. Clarifying that domestic is United States and Canada does not change anything that is said in the video.
Joker Folie A Deux was just boring that I have keep to eating my snacks in the theater and the movie always jumps from serious scenes to musicals and then back to the serious scenes, it just keeps going back and forth & that’s bad.
I hate how ppl are spinning the narrative to “you guys wanted guns violence and the joker and you’re mad you didn’t get it” …no we just wanted a good movie. DC as always takes anything good they have and slap a horrible sequel on it to wash the goodness away.
I saw the first Joker but thought it was overrated. However, I’m one of the small audience that enjoys musicals and court dramas. I also love Lady Gaga so was planning on seeing this in theater. However, as you mentioned the thing that didn’t make me go were audience disappointment and early bad reviews. But then as news came out that Gaga/Harley was barely in it and they had cut a lot of her scenes, I was done. What the heck was I going to go for, if I didn’t enjoy the first Joker?
I’ll be honest, I think you should ignore the reviews and see it for yourself. I went yesterday preparing to be disappointed but ended up being completely blown away, don’t get the hate at all. (Also don’t get what people mean by saying that lady Gaga is barely in it?? She’s like easily the most important character besides Arthur and has tons of scenes??)
I actually disliked the first film. It didn’t feel like an origin to a supervillain so it came off disappointing to me. Just a story about a relatable guy. Didn’t bother to see the second.
the first movie was like an origin story of how someone in a grounded more realistic setting could become something like the Joker, it was never supposed to be the origin story of the actual Joker. And I like the movie so yeah
This was a wanted sequel to the FIRST movie not to whatever Mr Todd wanted to, WB is the one to guilt, how is even possible they did not question the obvious poor decisions in this movie? Is executives work to protect the investment and they gave Todd full control to loose their capital? I will be pissed should I be investor for sure. This is well deserved WB.
Saw this movie as a double date and it was so fun, made the movie have rose tinted glasses a bit but Im finding it hard to understand why they did the ending like they did, it made the two movies feel pointless
Heavily disagree with point number 2. Audiences fell in love with Arthur Fleck becoming the Joker, letting that persona fully take over. Audiences WANTED to see more of the Joker Persona, we wanted to see him fully take over, we wanted to see him embody the character that he BECAME by the end of the first movie. We didnt need a second character study, and we didnt need whatever the hell it was they ended up giving us. We DID want to see the Psychopath that Is the Joker Be who we all know and are familiar with from DC comics. We Wanted to see Joaquin play the Iconic DC villain.
It's easy to say you want that, but what's the actual movie? What's the story? What's the character arc? How does that feel like a proper sequel to a character study about Arthur? It's something you want to see, but how does it actually make sense as a movie?
@@SeanChandlerTalksAbout that's just the general frame for the movie. The actual meat and bones of the Story and Plot and the Arc is supposed to be created within and around that frame work. I'm just giving the general view of what General Audiences and Normies expected and wanted out of the movie. It's supposed to be the Job of the people at DC studios, and the writers, to come up with a great Plot and Story that works within that Frame. DC needed to Get there DC comics Experts, and there Joker Experts, and put them in a room with the Framework and tell them to figure it out. I guarentee you, if these Experts are truly fans and heavily familiar with the Source material, they would be able to quickly come up with a Story and an Arc that perfectly fits The Joker, works for this Interpretation, and fits within the Framework of the movie.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 89 | คู่เอก "ยอดไอคิว vs คิริลล์"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Z3vYkHJ_5Ig/mqdefault.jpg)
UPDATE: Following the pattern discussed in the film, the actual have come in.....Joker 2 only made $37 million domestic!
I thought it opened to $40 million.
@@KadeemG61That was the estimates. The actual numbers is $37 million
😂😂😂
That's... lower than Morbius. Wtaf
0:31 The first movie was not "divisive" in the slightest. The majority loved it. 4:44 Yes, superhero fatigue set in and the bubble burst (quietly nudges Deadpool & Wolverine Blu-ray out of view). *No sir, Joker 2? Bad movie was bad. No excuses.*
Joker should have stayed a one and done.
or not intentionally make a shit sequel.
Between the ending of Joker and the villain we know from Batman there's a vast narrative chasm that could have been explored. Just because the sequel sabotaged itself doesn't mean there was no need for a sequel.
Did you see it?
Or none and done
One way to rescue it - Todd Phillips multiverse and Arthur goes into the Hangover universe and goes on the 4th Hangover film which is his stag do where he marries Harley. Chow ends up revealing himself to be Batman and they duel it out.
Just an idea…
Greatest Batman of all time
Bruce Wayne Chow was a good cover nobody saw it coming
Hangover 4 isn’t going to happen. Sorry.
@@KadeemG61Talk about missing the point. Jeez.
It's joking time!
He jokes all over the place
*jonkler time
Joking >>>> Morbin
AAH! WE WERE FOOLS TO UNDERESTIMATE JOKER! OH, NO!
They should re release Joker 2… oh wait…
Not sure how I forgot to mention this in the video, but...
REASON #6 DC is a Damaged Film Brand ....and musical isn't the way to win back skeptical fans
@@SeanChandlerTalksAbout even more pressure on Superman!
I’m not sure that a lot of the casual audience closely associate these two Joker movies with the DCEU, which is where I feel all the damage to DC has been done. To me I feel like anything Batman related still draws a level of interest (take The Batman for example). The DCEU is very damaged and those particular types of DC movies, but I think films like these stand apart.
@@Daniel_2626 I would argue the casual fan doesn't draw any associations. They don't know the difference between DCEU, Joker, DCU or any of it. They just know DC and DC has been struggling.
@@SeanChandlerTalksAbout that’s a fair point, but I think Batman/Joker as brands in of themselves have much more of a pull than DC even does that some won’t really think much of DC’s struggles when it comes to those characters.
Yeah I watched so many DC movies and they all tanked one after an other a friend even asked me why I was going to see The Flash and Shazam 2 and Aquaman 2 since it was going to be rebooted anyways i said it was a chance to say Goodbye before the reboot and I still Love those characters even if it means I'm a Die Hard fan besides I got experience those movies they way were meant to be experienced on the Big screen
The fact that they didn't even test screen the movie is insane. It's not even a 50 million movie like the first, it's a 200 million dollar movie, how do you not test the water
They did test screenings, i read one leak 8 months ago and he was 80% right with the things he said about the movie, i was hoping he was lying
@@norm-bb3bb Apparently (Screen Rant report with a reputable source to back them up) Warner Bros elected to avoid test screenings after the final cut was done (well after eight months ago). I'm sure a lot of the film was somewhat similar, that's what they shot, but the structure and some of the scenes could have been heavily altered (proof enough is that in the trailers there are quite a few scenes of Lady Gaga that are missing from the theater cut, but since they are in the trailers it is somewhat safe to assume they were in a cut not long before the final one).
@@eugenio_iacono Then who was the guy who sent me the leak? Because he was right with the editing and the unnecessary scenes and that Gaga was supporting when all her fans thought she was co lead
@@norm-bb3bb Maybe Screen Rant and their source are wrong, it is possible, but it is hard to believe since a lot of scenes are missing and are in the trailers. But it's not like I am an insider or anything.
Flopie à Deux was NOT made for the audience that made Joker such a cinematic phenomenon.
So dumb on Phillips’ end
@@vincentlospinuso7232 I honestly don't think so. He got paid a fortune to insult moviegoers the way he wanted. Regardless of how many millions Joker 2 ends up costing WBD, Phillips is laughing all the way to the bank.
@@VALonTH-cam oh yeah. But he wrecked his own reputation
@@vincentlospinuso7232 You might be right. Time will tell.
@@VALonTH-cam Definitely. He could’ve made Joker 2 something that many people would get behind and would be very uplifting for many people. But his approach was very antagonistic and now everyone is against him.
There's even a scene on the steps where Arthur is telling Lady Gaga to stop singing and just talk.
I’m tired boss…
Someone else pointed this out but:
2018-2019: Captain Marvel, Aquaman, and Joker all made $1 billion
2023-2024: their sequels open poorly/flop at the box office 😅
Times and tides change real fast 😂 as for the movie itself, I thought it was mediocre. At least Look Back was a nice cleanser afterwards, that film is sitting in my top 10 of the year atm. Lightings going hard too Sean 🔥
I still say (even though nobody cares ) that I loved Aquaman 2 and I'm glad I saw it on the Big Screen the way it meant to be seen 🙂
@@rustyshackleford6035 You’re not alone I enjoyed Aquaman 2 too
Surprised captain Marvel and Aquaman broke a billion as they're both pretty average. Joker was a dark drama about mental health decline so surprised there were so many fans for such stuff. But it's hard to say what fans like.
@@jonfreeman9682Those were both very mainstream-friendly comic book movies coming out in a relatively quiet time of year. Also The Hunger Games had previously been something of a sleeper hit in a similar time of year, so similarly female-skewing movie PLUS big franchise brand was always going to be a big deal! Might be even more relevant given how The Marvels got curbstomped by another Hunger Games movie. And let’s not kid ourselves: the main audience for most comic book movies is teenagers, if only because they’re the biggest demographic with disposable income.
Also notice how Iron Man 3 was a billion-dollar hit despite being so divisive since it was the next MCU movie after The Avengers. Captain Marvel was in a similar situation regarding coming out right before Endgame.
This has to be one of the best movie analyses I've ever heard, and I listen to a lot. It was short, to the point, and made each point back to back. Excellent work, wow!
Thanks so much
I doubt Hollywood wasn't expecting Venom 3 to have to be the movie to save the box office this fall! I love it, bring it on! Venom has saved them twice already myaswell make it 3 times!
Fk y'all. This was so lit. I hope it gets the attention it deserves when it drops on streaming!!!
Send in the frowns.
First reason would be that even with the reason that it's bad, it also disrespects the first film and doesn't build on what came before, which is what every sequel should do but it tries so hard to be its own thing that it becomes a trainwreck in the end.
Second reason is that we didn't want this and the only reason why this is made is because of the success of the first film that made a billion dollars and got a lot of Oscar nominations.
A couple months ago some people actually thought this was a competitor for highest grossing R rated movie. And that was AFTER D&W came out…
I love the first movie. But after watching this, I feel like the director wrote this movie to punish me liking the first one. It’s like they purposely made sure that this movie was the opposite of the first one. I’m still pissed I spent my money to go see it in theaters.
Ill see it free on Netflix
For me, it’s because Joker 2 wasn’t necessary.
The first one is perfect for me because I love that film. And it definitely deserved both the 2 Oscars and the Golden Lion.
But Hollywood wants to turn a should have been a standalone movie into a cash cow sequel. And it didn’t do well.
And this is why stand-alone movies like Joker shouldn’t be made into a sequel.
0:10 Which leaves us all with one burning question... how on earth does Catwoman not have an F?
Probably because Halle Berry was a sex icon at the time. Easy on the eyes increases tolerance. Lady Gaga on the other hand is more famous for her voice rather than looks. Especially when you factor in that a considerable portion of society accused her looks as the possibility of being a man.
Had an argument with my brother the day a 2nd movie was announced. Told him this was a bad idea and it never needed a 2nd movie. Glad to see I was right
You're glad to see the movie sucked?
No just that I knew that it never needed a 2nd movie in the first place
Key words are” Phoenix won the Oscar for his portrayal of ARTHUR in 2019”
Yes. ARTHUR. NOT JOKER
The thing that confuses me the most about this film, despite enjoying some of it, is why does it have a reason to exist when there were already markers that fueled my skepticism going in, and the first film didn't leave much for a sequel?
That deadpool film sucked too.
It should be used as a lesson to Directors to give fans what they actually want to see.
Yep instead of listening to focus groups.
I don't know why but I can't stop imagining Deadpool kicking Joker down the stairs (in John Wick 4 fashion) and dancing to Bye Bye Bye while watching this video *LOL!*
Gaga is too serious and Broadway theatrical to play Harley Quinn I knew that from the beginning. Remember VMAs when she performed Applause thats Gaga in a nutshell when she opened the performance like a theater student. It works for her musical career but not for iconic DC comics or Marvel! Harley Quinn was funny AF ,likeable,joyful and heartwarming and spunky!!!
Exactly. Horrible casting right from the beginning. Even without it being a "musical", I think her character portrayal would have drugged down the movie for the critics and comic book fans of Harley
You also have to consider the fact that the economy is doing worse now than in 2019, so people are more sensitive to the cost of movie tickets, and this film just doesn’t seem worth it
Inside Out 2 and DP&W made over a billion dollars. The beeltejuice sequel also performed well. I think people just aren't interested in this sequel. I think Venom coming out in a couple weeks is gonna do really well
@@thenedsmmachannel8970 People are more selective and going to the theaters less overall.
And Covid happened which has in large part killed the theatre.
I rewatched Joker, a film I really liked, and went to watch Folie A Deux. It's hard to work out what they were thinking. Arthur's character development from the first film is gone. The musical numbers aren't original songs so the film effectively stops whenever there's a musical interlude (and there are a lot of musical interludes). It looks nice and has some great performances, but there's little plot. What a disappointment/waste.
2019 was probably the greatest year for film period!
Absolutely one of the best.
you mean the last best year (before the pandemic).
1999 gets my vote.
@@NinthShinigamiAbsolutely.
@@someguy7424I personally put 1997 above 1999 when it comes to theatrical releases.
"A result of the first film" That was perfect wording. Great job!
So, Sean, when you talked about Creative Inbreeding, I think Joker 2 is an example of Creative Invasion-a term I've coined. This is when a movie, usually within a franchise, is influenced by different ideas that grossly conflict with what the movie has always been, leaving little to nothing of what the movie used to be. Their identity is practically erased, with people wondering "wtf is this? This isn't what the X has been about. What happened to its identity."
Joker 2 was Trash 🗑️ I thought I was watching a Joker solo film not some dude who would inspire the actual Joker
The movie should be called Arthur
@@terrymcginnis01 Agree 💯
@@terrymcginnis01 Wouldn't have made a billion dollars tho
Well we don't know if he's the real Joker or not and who's to say Joker can't be anyone and have multiple characters playing Joker. But the twist he's not the Joker kinda takes away everything they built up.
Filmmakers when they deconstruct an iconic character for no reason and their movie bombs because fans obviously hate it: 🤯🤔🤯
12:25 Wouldn’t you consider Oppenheimer to be a court room drama, to some extent, hence that will make it the highest grossing courtroom drama?
The only thing is, that's not only a Nolan film, but it's essentially a true story. So you couple Nolan, known for his attention to detail and breathtaking visual imagery, of course people are going to be hype to experience a nuke
I still can't believe that movie made that much i almost felt sleep 😂 the barbenheimer meme helped a lot.
Honestly what they should’ve done after joker was make a new genre of Batman movies much more based in reality with several one off character studies of different villains if they were in a more realistic setting
Ex: joker and mental health, Bane and substance abuse, Mr. Freeze and terminal illness
(And how the failures of the system and our society drove these people to do some of the worst things possible to cope and/or survive)
Great idea!
That's a phenomenal idea! Here are some more:
Catwoman & Kleptomania.
Hush & plastic surgery.
Killer Croc & skin conditions.
Poison Ivy & eco-terrorism.
The Riddler & Obsessive-compulsive Disorder (OCD).
Two Face & Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID).
There's also plenty of people like me that don't EVER like musicals! (Unless they're doing it sarcastically, like South Park.) I knew that there was absolutely no chance that I would ever watch this movie as soon as I heard the word musical! There are some of us who don't even like "the greatest musicals ever made." Because they're STILL musicals!!!🤮🤮🤮!!!!!
I like comic movies, taxi driver, and musicals. Another issue with even trying to appeal to a majority of people into all these genres is that you need to have good singing in a musical of cover songs and in general. Dancer in the Dark that Bjork was in had a lot of similar themes and did the themes far better. Roxie Heart, which Chicago was based on, was a well-done court drama musical. If they would have gone with the more tragic, grounded approach of dancer in the dark or went full-blown dark comedy like Chicago and Roxie Heart or like Cabaret with dark humor and a deeper message It might have sold more people. There were ways to do this far more creatively as a musical. They were covering Sinatra and Shirely Bassey, old jazz, and big band songs you need to be able to sing too. For musicians who watched this, they don't want to hear someone sing a tone-deaf version of the extremely hard song if you go away.
Great analysis Sean! You glossed over it quickly here, probably for spoiler reasons, but the point about being betrayed by the ending has me thinking I will never actually watch this movie now.
Howard the Duck has B- on Cinema Score, which I find hilarious
I think it's because:
1- It is a musical and, even tho the musical scenes are well made, it is a very niche genre and people who don't like musicals *really* don't like it.
2- It's getting a very bad reception by both critics and audiences
3- People simply weren't pumped up to watch a Joker sequel in the first place.
I didn't need a sequel but I would have been interested if it was good. But this does nothing but try to take away from the first movie.
Musicals can be good for those who enjoy musicals. I'm not a fan of musicals especially as this is serious drama about mental health. But it could still be good if they don't go overboard. Give it a chance.
It goes overboard
The musical aspect killed it, period, with a minor assist from having lady Gaga's horrible acting making Harley Quinn an uninteresting character. By the forth or fifth musical set is when people in my theater began to walk out.
@@jonfreeman9682 I already watched the film. The musicals were the best part of it but during the courtroom scenes they felt forced into the narrative. It doesn't help that the film is badly edited.
I don’t count Bohemian Rhapsody as a musical because all of the music is diegetic, so with that said, the highest grossing non-Disney musical of all time is Mamma Mia, at just over 600 mil, followed by the Rio movies at around 500 million (the first one just under, the second one just over).
Not counting kids movies (which inherently have the advantage of double viewership, since their parents go with them), the second highest grossing musical of all time is La La Land, at 470. Mamma Mia was marketed as a musical and I don’t remember if La La Land was specifically marketed as a musical, but it at least appealed to an audience that would otherwise like musicals. This new Joker movie is a musical that’s ashamed to be a musical. Musicals can make money (Even Wonka made over 600 million), but they need to stop being ashamed in their musicality. Joker didn’t get the theater nerds and it didn’t get enough of its fanboys before word spread, so it suffered the worst of both worlds.
Just when I thought I couldn’t be more alienated by the response of general audiences to a film…
I heard two things about this movie
1- the guy that made it did it on purpose because of the Looney Tunes movie.
2-the main insult is they try to connected to Christopher Nolan, Batman movie.
They didn’t bro, Harvey dent dies in the movie, and Bruce’s parents die in a different way
@@markmorris6721 It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Nolan Batman trilogy.
@@ricardoluna3517 I don't think Harvey died. Half of his face was mangled. But I think it was just an homage to the Nolan films, not any connection
what happened was hollywood has new management, new policies, and new directives that include people with the lack of knowledge on how to make an actual good film.
A Lady Gaga musical, yeah she'll bring in a crowd. What could go wrong?
Great job DC 👏
keep in mind i haven’t seen folie a duex, i get if you don’t care for musicals but that always felt like it would make sense to go a musical route for a sequel, in the first one Arthur danced a lot and going farther into the insanity i could see singing. again i haven’t seen the new film but i was always into that idea
For those comparing this movie to The Last Jedi regarding subverting expectations…keep in mind the advertising for that movie was deliberately vague about the plot and the movie was already highly-anticipated, so the vast majority of people who did see the movie opening day most definitely didn’t feel cheated the way they did for this movie. They also probably never thought about the movie afterwards too, unlike a lot of us who did feel cheated.
I completely and utterly 110% checked out when they said it was a musical. Screw that.
I’ve noticed that the majority of film related channels on TH-cam who have hated this movie are not necessarily film critics but the channels that I like to call the “IP enthusiast” film channels.
The channels that claim to love movies but really only talk about the state of IP driven movies related to Marvel, DC, Star Wars etc. Just a thought 🤔
The director hates comic book movies , hates joker and he hates the audience . deserved movie jail .
I didn't think a doofus that directed the 3 hangover films would be so opinionated.
Hey Sean, you should make a video talking about what you would’ve done differently/ how to fix the movie. Love your content, keep up the good work.
Thanks for watching.
To the point I made in this video, I don't think it's obvious what a sequel would be. So I don't have a pitch for a sequel. I think the first movie is a solid stand alone character piece. It's not actually a good setup for a franchise.
This film is INCREDIBLE. The reasons people use for hating this film only further prove its point 💀
They should’ve put Joker (2019) back in theaters maybe it would’ve added more hype
They should have known better though… if you’re going to green light a joker 2 continuing the story of Arthur fleck, it has to be very intriguing to make people wanna sit through that again. The first one is great but I don’t ever need to see it again. I don’t even know when or if I’ll see this one.
I think point 1 and 5 are the strongest. With the marketing it wasn’t even clear that the film was a musical but the trailers honestly seemed intriguing. Coming out of the festival circuit and fan first screenings, however, I think sewered most of the public motivation to go watch this.
Yes marketing did a good job because the trailer made it seem like an interesting film. But the end product did not match up to expectations
After watching this video I don't even want to see It no more and the 2019 movie is my top 10 favorite movies of all time and one of the best theatre experiences I've ever had
The fact that the og made over a billi as a rated R film and it’s sequel didnt even match Morbius on its domestic opening is just absolutely insane lol
In my opinion, the first movie was a masterpiece & didn't need a sequel. I get this was comic book movie, but this wasn't a light hearted comedy that a meaningly sequel could be tacked on to. Nonetheless, I managed my expectations for the sequel, but was still disappointed. There were some good ideas in the movie but none there were fully fleshed out. At the end, I didn't understand what was the point of the movie.
It’s also a film that seems to hate audiences of the first one
Nice ideas, but my 5 reasons why Joker 2 bomb is simple:
1. Polarizing reception and a D CinemaScore.
2. WB’s poorly executed marketing.
3. It suffers from a lack of substance over style.
4. It doesn’t know what type of movie it wants to be.
5. DC is still hampered by WB’s corporate politics not only did it damaged the DCEU as a whole, but also, it turned into Zaslav’s personal playground.
People are angry that Arthur isn’t The Joker. It’s called “joker”, he is A joker.
If you removed the “Arkham” sign and any reference to Gotham, there’s nothing that makes this the DC Joker. He’s an abused kid grown up into a mentally ill man in a terrible city.
Anything else is projecting our expectation of The Joker onto him. (Har)Lee’s reaction to him later in the film is the audiences’ misunderstanding of the movie and the character. She wanted the Joker and he was only ever Arthur (just like the critics)
Speaking of the music… the reason for the music? He first saw Lee in music therapy and she sang to him. If it was art therapy, Arthur would have been dancing through paintings to woo her in his hallucinations. Lee’s love language is music. She was a privileged upper East sider. She probably had music, voice, dance lessons as the girl of rich parents. This isn’t a musical, it’s the fever dream of a lovestruck, obsessive mental patient.
He’s mentally ill, not a mastermind anarchist. Can anyone honestly say that you could see Arthur from Joker1 planning the downfall of Gotham? Outsmarting any of the batmans we’ve seen (Pattinson’s?!). Do you see him making penguin or the riddler bend the knee? Would Bane freeze at the sight of him?See him walk into a room full of mob bosses and walk out unscathed? Manufacture timed explosives, p0is0n gas, fight Batman hand to hand?
He was full of swagger as joker, but he wasn’t smarter; he didn’t demonstrate any greater competency, he had no skills other than a good strut.
Heck, this was even shown in the 1st movie. Joker’s super moment on the stairs is shown as him just dancing like an idiot (lots of pelvic thrusts) hearing his own music. He was never The Joker.
Even at the end of Joker1 we see him in police custody with no sign of a fight. He probably just sat down on the couch and waited for the police. Remember his plan was self h@rm, not murd3r. He didn’t know what to do next. Then he gets rescued by his followers and he stands on top of the car (again, just a strut) Then we see him hunched over, laughing his painful Arthur laugh smoking a cigarette with another counselor in Arkham. He was caught again. The audience wanted to see him powerful, so it did, but he was still Arthur just playing more roles for atttention and love.
They wanted Hannibal Lechter but he was always Buffalo Bill
But then why bother drawing on a character in the first place if it has nothing to do with his essence? It's like making a movie called Mickey Mouse and it's just some filthy rodent running around in a field
This movie suffers because it doesn't know what it wants to be and fails because of it. Some people are calling it ambitious; I just see this as a cover word for messy.
You will definitely find me talking about this movie come January on Sean's worst movies of the year video.
I have to pat myself on the back for this one. My sister and I made a bet. She's a really big fan of musicals, and I despise literally EVERYTHING about them. When I heard that they were making a musical sequel to a comic book movie/BLEAK psychological thriller, I predicted that not only would this movie BOMB, but that it would become something that created sarcastic memes, and would be ridiculed and made fun of for years! 🎵It looks like I was RIIIIIGHT!!!🎵😂😂😂
number 1 the ending
Love how it’s getting so much hate yet so many people keep talking about it.
I keep talking about it because i love the first movie so much and I'm pissed Todd wanted to destroyed it with this sequel, the sequel isn't canon in my book.
Another fantastic video! Thank you!
17:03 - I'm more used to hearing "stomp" or "step" on people's toes. I've never heard the phrase "mash on people's toes."
Must be an Albany expression.
2:26 no way that joker 2 costed almost 200mill to make how why
Thats what i said! Avengers didnt cost that much
I mean it grossed 121 million USD in 4-5 days and the budget is 190-200 million USD. I think the movie will definitely recover its budget but might not earn additional profits.
I think the biggest reason it bombed is because of the budget its happened a lot recently where movies have massive budgets but then bomb Oppenheimer was successful and it only cost 100 million flash bombed snd and it cost close to 300 million
It’s Dancer in the Dark- that is a court room drama musical
these are some of my favorite videos you do
1. Lady gu gu being in it
2. It all of a sudden becoming a musical since lady fucking gu gu is in it !!!
Why is he yelling?..my phone speakers are vibrating?.😂
IT'S A GOOD MOVIE. GOOD ACTING. WELL DONE. THE NEGATIVE STUFF IS UNTRUE. SEE FOR YOURSELF.
My sister has never seen a marvel DC movie. She has no interest, no knowledge about comic book movies but she still went to see Joker 2019.
Making this movie a musical court room drama was a bizzare choice. Like why would you choose such a massively niche genre? Soooo many people have find that genre boring, uninteresting and cringy. The performances of this film compared to the OG is the most surprising, bizarre situation. Before the movie came out it felt likely it was gonna make near a billion again
I haven't seen the film. I'll probably catch it on streaming. But I think the main problem wasn't the singing. I think that could've worked if the movie had delivered the goods otherwise. What really seems to have upset people is that these weren't the characters they thought they were. This Joker was never *the* Joker, and this Lee wasn't Harley. That's kind of an interesting twist, in the abstract, but when you're expecting the real Joker and the real Harvey, I could understand why it felt like a gut punch. I think there were clues in the first movie that this wasn't the Joker we know, but I guess some people were late to that realization. (To me, as you alluded to, the big clue was the age difference between Fleck and Bruce in the first movie.)
Tbf I thought the movie was good. I understand though that it is not everyone’s cup of tea since it is a much slower movie than the first one and like you said it is more of a reflection to what happened on the first one. However I have to give the makers some props because they didn’t make it into something completely else or drive it into the DC universe- they still kept the same character arcs but made a movie that many may deem unnecessary.
This was great
I’d like to thank everyone who went to go see it last weekend, so that now I don’t have to spend my money ✌🏼 And I can live in a world where only the 1st movie exists
Great video Sean. I know 4 different people just in my personal life who cancelled their tickets due to reviews and word of mouth
Personally if you have an interest in this film I think you should go make your own mind up. I was kinda dreading it due to the early reviews but tbh me and my wife both really enjoyed it
Anyways take care
I really wonder if Warner Bros will sue Todd Phillips for this. This is insane.
I knew it would not be a hit with audiences but I didn't think there would be so much vitriol. I thought it was just a bad, boring movie, not a complete abomination.
For me it's the worst version of Joker in Live action I never hated Jared Letos Joker in SS but this made me truly appreciate it much more and how he tried to do a different take that was it's own thing.
People felt tricked because they did not think they were going to a musical.
Bad word of mouth is why movies bomb 99%
So, I have been looking at the international numbers - specifically Italy where it seems to be fairing decent. Do you think this kind of film may resonate better in different parts of the world? It has a Takashi Miike vibe to it that might play better in certain markets. Now don’t misunderstand me, I don’t think these markets will make a difference but I am curious.
To be frank, I’m really fatigued with Joker and specially with Harley Quinn as characters. Harley Quinn got 4 movies while Poison Ivy and Mr Freeze got 1 and Clayface got zero…
I agree. A counter- argument I say to those who wanted yet another joker story is that we already have a trillion typical iterations of him. Try something else.
It's a shame they still haven't done Harley Quinn right. How is Mad Love so difficult to adapt? And David Ayer's oversexualization of that character was ridiculous
I’m begging for The Batman 2/3 movies to have new villians
Harley Quinn is not a draw. She's a C list character and people don't buy Harley Quinn comics. She is at best a supporting character and even that she's annoying.
Harley Quinn is an overrated character and Robbie was awful in that role. I enjoyed Gaga playing her in a darker way.
Sean PLEASE Acknowledge that Domestic box office is actually US& Canada.. not just United States as it's inaccurate
I get your point, but I don't understand why that would be the take away from the video. I'm discussing many factors and many numbers. I could pause on each detail to elaborate on it's literally and technical definition and meaning.
Clarifying that domestic is United States and Canada does not change anything that is said in the video.
It deserves it. One of the worst movies I’ve seen in a while
The moment I heard it was a musical I knew I was skipping it. WB continues to make poor decisions on comic book films.
Joker Folie A Deux was just boring that I have keep to eating my snacks in the theater and the movie always jumps from serious scenes to musicals and then back to the serious scenes, it just keeps going back and forth & that’s bad.
I hate how ppl are spinning the narrative to “you guys wanted guns violence and the joker and you’re mad you didn’t get it” …no we just wanted a good movie. DC as always takes anything good they have and slap a horrible sequel on it to wash the goodness away.
Right on the money Sean! (Literally)
I saw the first Joker but thought it was overrated. However, I’m one of the small audience that enjoys musicals and court dramas. I also love Lady Gaga so was planning on seeing this in theater.
However, as you mentioned the thing that didn’t make me go were audience disappointment and early bad reviews. But then as news came out that Gaga/Harley was barely in it and they had cut a lot of her scenes, I was done. What the heck was I going to go for, if I didn’t enjoy the first Joker?
I’ll be honest, I think you should ignore the reviews and see it for yourself. I went yesterday preparing to be disappointed but ended up being completely blown away, don’t get the hate at all. (Also don’t get what people mean by saying that lady Gaga is barely in it?? She’s like easily the most important character besides Arthur and has tons of scenes??)
@@mikaelta1911 She was in about 25% of the movie. But most of the movie took place without her
I actually disliked the first film. It didn’t feel like an origin to a supervillain so it came off disappointing to me. Just a story about a relatable guy. Didn’t bother to see the second.
the first movie was like an origin story of how someone in a grounded more realistic setting could become something like the Joker, it was never supposed to be the origin story of the actual Joker. And I like the movie so yeah
The idea for a musical came to Joaquin Phoenix in a dream. Hahaha
I agree on the direction it took. Marvel and DC made it predictable
This was a wanted sequel to the FIRST movie not to whatever Mr Todd wanted to, WB is the one to guilt, how is even possible they did not question the obvious poor decisions in this movie? Is executives work to protect the investment and they gave Todd full control to loose their capital? I will be pissed should I be investor for sure. This is well deserved WB.
You would think movie studios would make movies that people want to pay to watch rather than what the directors want to make. Boggles
Lower than Batman and Robin?…Oh my dear Lord😂
Still profited as a whole with both costs of movies combined from the first movies sales alone though 😂
Saw this movie as a double date and it was so fun, made the movie have rose tinted glasses a bit but Im finding it hard to understand why they did the ending like they did, it made the two movies feel pointless
So the real Folie a Deux was WB and DC making this movie :P
Heavily disagree with point number 2. Audiences fell in love with Arthur Fleck becoming the Joker, letting that persona fully take over. Audiences WANTED to see more of the Joker Persona, we wanted to see him fully take over, we wanted to see him embody the character that he BECAME by the end of the first movie. We didnt need a second character study, and we didnt need whatever the hell it was they ended up giving us. We DID want to see the Psychopath that Is the Joker Be who we all know and are familiar with from DC comics. We Wanted to see Joaquin play the Iconic DC villain.
It's easy to say you want that, but what's the actual movie? What's the story? What's the character arc? How does that feel like a proper sequel to a character study about Arthur?
It's something you want to see, but how does it actually make sense as a movie?
@@SeanChandlerTalksAbout that's just the general frame for the movie. The actual meat and bones of the Story and Plot and the Arc is supposed to be created within and around that frame work. I'm just giving the general view of what General Audiences and Normies expected and wanted out of the movie. It's supposed to be the Job of the people at DC studios, and the writers, to come up with a great Plot and Story that works within that Frame. DC needed to Get there DC comics Experts, and there Joker Experts, and put them in a room with the Framework and tell them to figure it out. I guarentee you, if these Experts are truly fans and heavily familiar with the Source material, they would be able to quickly come up with a Story and an Arc that perfectly fits The Joker, works for this Interpretation, and fits within the Framework of the movie.