Controllers definitely messed up coordination up there. That quick "cross runway 4" during taxi instructions for Southwest, then Tower clearing Jetblue to take off... Also sounds like someone is in training in the tower? I beg familiar DCA pilots and controllers, if you're reading this, please email for further information on how operations work there when landing on 1 and departing on both 1 and 4.
Agreed, the taxi instructions should have advised Southwest to hold short of the runway, or to hold the other aircraft and allow Southwest to cross prior to clearance for takeoff. ATC definitely lost their situational awareness here.
Part of it sounded like Tower and Ground don't know what the other was doing. Ground either ordered or allowed Southwest to think they were clear to cross 4 when Tower gave permission to Jet Blue to take off.
Hey Victor, might want to edit your comment: "I beg familiar DCA pilots and controllers, if you're reading this, please email for further information..."
I really like the highlighting of the actively-talking plane combined with the darkening of the rest of the map. Please keep doing that, it's really helpful! Also, the map detail is fantastic. Nicely done!
Exactly!! Very good observation to a very complicated situation. Without the highlights, I would have difficulty understanding how everything was proceeding. Yes, I have hearing problems and no, I don't have a hearing aid yet, I have tried a couple and they were seriously lacking in performance.
A very wise flight instructor once told me in training that “if ATC makes a mistake they still go home that night. If you make a mistake you are likely not going home that night.” Words to live by for every pilot out there.
At that point the Southwest pilot probably thought they were the ones who screwed up. They likely thought they misheard the instruction to cross and the controller didn't catch their supposed readback mistake. The voice sounds like the pilot thinks his career is in jeopardy from making a mistake that could've killed hundreds of people. I'm sure it'll be a relief for him to hear the tapes and know it wasn't primarily his mistake (though he could've confirmed,) but in the moment he must have been feeling quite terrible thinking it was his error.
@@arantala The Southwest immediately verbalized that they were cleared to cross when they read back that they were stopping, I don't think they thought they were in the wrong.
No kidding. What's really scary is when something like this happens and several people notice it at the same time, so everyone jumps on the radio to warn them, stomping on eachother's signal and no one hears anything! I've seen that happen numerous times! Incidentally, Washington-Reagan DCA is a big enough airport, I bet they have a runway incursion detection system which would set off all sorts of alarm bells at the tower.
FM frequency capture is great for noise reduction when there's one transmitting station, real bad when you need to talk over someone urgently..... maybe Guard should be changed to use AM or SSB?
@@hotlavatube This was a contributing factor in Tenerife. Several important transmissions were lost because people were stomping on each other, any one of which could have prevented the disaster which was almost duplicated here!
I think in this case the controller might have been training and either the tower supervisor came on or the training controller was relived once the situation occurred. You can actually hear the voice in the background saying “ tell the Southwest to stop!” Even before she takes over the position.
Yup...went back and re-listened. SWA was given clearance to cross runway 4 and his read back included the instruction to cross runway 4. This one is on ATC for sure.
except that before crossing a runway you should LOOK to see if it is "clear" left and right. If they collided, NTSB would very likely have put some fault on SW unless vis was less than 500 RVR.
@@rchilds527 We always light the plane up and clear both directions before crossing a runway. But this one is on ATC. Big time. The difference is, a pilot can get a violation that will seriously effect her career. ATC? Maybe a retrain, I don't know.
@@rchilds527 They wouldn't have known if the aircraft was in position and holding or was cleared for takeoff. Don’t think NTSB would have expected them to discern the pilots intention or to hear radio traffic on another frequency.
@@country_boy9180 this is where it goes into the weeds. Would a "reasonable person" notice an aircraft on a runway with all its lights on, moving in their direction, still proceed to cross? Yes, ATC is at fault 99%, but it's up to us to verify a runway is safe before crossing. Low vis? Yeah, have to trust ATC and ground radar if available. "Clear and a million?" We have to verify safe to cross.
Perhaps, but isn't the safety net that pilots are supposed to look both ways when crossing or entering a runway to be sure no one is coming or on final for that runway?
Another contributing factor is that the planes were on different frequencies as SWA was instructed to switch to tower when on the other side of runway 4...
Trying a bit too hard to NOT NOTICE the obvious thing about this particular situation. Is the different frequencies thing an issue for the billion other times airplanes taxied and took off here?
@dr3v1l1993 Most pilots are actively looking out for this. I know that Lufthansa for example trains their pilots to mentally "lock in" any runway number they are cleared to cross or go onto and listen out to ANY mention of that number from that point on, so you quick spot a potential conflicting clearance.
@@bosshog8844 Only if the controllers made a similar mistake. The cause of the situation was conflicting instructions from controllers. Had the planes been on the same frequency it is possible the pilots might have noticed the conflict sooner and been able to avoid it; in other words, the fact that neither plane could hear the instructions given to the other decreased the chances of the situation being caught and therefore contributed to the chances of it occurring.
The woman who stepped on, I was based at DCa for years. I recognize her voice. That woman is the best controller in the NAS and I’ll argue with anyone over that.
well he realized the bad instruction but kept going and was about to cross the runway anyway... and from the runway angle, the southwest could have clearly seen that the Jetblue was rolling. Not saying the fault was on southwest pilot but a visual check before crossing the runway not matter what the ATC clearance is should be a must ! At least it is the case in the airline I fly for.
@VASAviation, Yesterday we were flying KSDF to KMSP and heard a pipeline declare mayday on guard somewhere in the vicinity of the Iowa City VOR (IOW). He was coming in broken but it sounded like he said he had a midair with something and was trying to maintain altitude. Would have been somewhere around 22:00Z.
As an ATC in France it seems crazy to me that Ground controller is allowed to make planes cross an active runway. Here all active runways are under the responsibility of Tower controller. Runways de-ranked as taxiways are another story though.
US ATC procedures are very aggressive compared to just about everywhere else. It is routine to issue landing clearances to one aircraft before the one ahead of it in sequence has even landed. If a radio fails or comms collide then you're relying on pilots seeing the other aircraft and going around on their own. It is definitely not a fail-safe system.
@@aboriani the US term is time-based separation and it is completely routine here. Obviously on routes everybody separates based on time. The problem is that with a runway there are way more variables - the plane is stopping and needs to vacate the runway, so it isn't just flying in a straight line at constant speed. Any number of things can easily cause the plane to dwell on the runway.
@@RichFreemanI know, maybe that’s the only option with the volume of traffic you have in the US, but saying “runway is occupied, continue approach” and then clear the landing when the runway is actually clear is not a bad option either, considering the risk mitigation in doing that. But again, I don’t fly in the US and I’m not familiar with the challenges you have there.
@@aboriani oh, I'd absolutely do it the way you suggest. I'd just reduce capacity and institute positive control, and auction off landing slots. Then build more airports if needed. It isn't worth compromising safety just to avoid having to deal with zoning fights.
I immediately got worried when the clearance to cross 4 was giving SO early. Isn't it more usually to give a 'hold short' and only when they get there to give them the clearance? Wonder whether there is a protocol there?
@@av8tor1908 I'm not an expert, but it's bizarre to me that permission to cross a runway and permission to take off from that same runway are not done on the same frequency. The whole "tower on the other side [of the runway]" thing doesn't make sense to me. You'd think that any instructions involving movement on a specific runway would be handled by the same controller for precisely this reason.
Go to ORD, they do this all the time with 50 other taxi instructions on top of that. It could take you 20 minutes to get to the runway crossing, but you got the clearance, so DON'T STOP!
@@guspaz Lucky no one was killed today. What’s puzzling to me is neither crew seems to have saw each other, nor took action until ATC screamed on the radio to stop. It’s a short distance between them where this occurred. Weather was good and both planes would’ve had all their lights on while crossing the runway/taking off….
I'm based in DCA. Lots of training, and they are getting too close for comfort for the last couple of months. Departing traffic with final traffic at 2 mi, loading crossing runways with line up and wait traffic. DCA tower and ground have been really pushing it lately. Every pre-departure briefing the number 1 threat we brief is DCA controllers and to stay on our toes.
In the last several years Runway 15/33 has become routinely used for commercial departures. In the last few months Runway 4 has as well. 3 runways now are used for commercial departures. I know this just by seeing DCA from my living room and can attest in the past few weeks the departures are in much tighter frequencies than ever before.
Fly into DCA a lot as well. Somehow, it's still a debate as to whether or not to add more flights to DCA. The DCA controllers are usually pretty good at keeping the flow going safely, but if you push any system to its max something is gonna give.
@@mcleanirish airliners on these runways is normal. Ive landed an Airbus on 33 many times. The problem is having aircraft on short final, multiple line up and wait aircraft, and one on a takeoff roll. Its chaos and DC ATC lacks the situational awareness to pull this off
That golden moment when a pilot requests the phone number, rather than receiving the dreaded "I have a phone number for you". Major f*ck up in the tower...
DCA wouldn't be launching off both runways in this configuration if the weather was bad. Not would they be giving the clearances they were due to higher separation requirements.
@@kmlevel seems like they maybe they shouldn't have been doing it in good weather either considering they nearly put two jets together. Live and learn I suppose.
We‘ve been getting these types of incidents at an almost weekly bases. The US seems to have a serious problem with runway incursions due to what I would guess is congested airports, overworked ATC and an apparent lack off safety systems. You‘d hope that after the JAL a350 accident every countries aviation authority would look into this topic.
@@CR-mv4rldon’t get defensive, we know that not every controller is like this. But when the consequences are hundreds dying, we have to focus on fixing every mistake, and preventing them. Better safety systems at airports would go a long way, relying on humans always leaves risk.
Great job by both pilots. They did proper readbacks, but they also both had good situational awareness and took appropriate action for the safety of their passengers.
Both pilots were champs. Nobody blew their stack, and both were perfect gentlemen. ATC is going to have to look at their procedures, as both pilots were clearly instructed to proceed, and gave proper readback.
Yep, that's on ATC for sure. DC Reagan absolutely needs a metering frequency to manage pushbacks, it is very difficult to handle both pushback and taxi clearances for so many aircraft and it shows that the challenge is causing errors.
Southwest got it doubly right. He was told to cross 4 and in his readback he even added the word "cleared" as "cleared to cross 4", almost as if his pilot spidey sense felt a problem was in the offing.
@@joetheairbusguy1813they were looking, that’s the only reason they were able to stop short of the runway. Takes a few seconds to see that an aircraft is starting its takeoff roll, especially when it’s mostly heading towards you. They probably thought the jet blue was told to line up and wait, until they saw the jet barreling down on them.
I think this is highlights a flaw in procedure. If the taxi directions include cross a runway does that mean they’re automatically cleared to do so? Or do they have to get separate permission to cross an active runway? Clearly it should be the latter
@@digitalhen: if the taxi clearance telsl you to cross a runway, that's clearance to cross the runway. If they don't want to clear you to cross the runway the clearance tells you to hold short the runway.
They needed to take a deep breath and settle down. They sounded like they took a deep breath and was waiting for their heartbeat to get back to normal.
I worked at Ohare Airport moving planes, I was shocked how many incompetent people were working there. There should be standards on hiring people when it comes to Aviation.
Great job @vasaviation. I listen to the DCA feed often as my office overlooks the airport and its fascinating. One thing I think missing from this video is the nuance of the timing of the other aircraft and how tight the sequencing is in such a busy space at DCA. Let me explain. --Tower clears Southwest 2830 (the other southwest aircraft) to line up and wait, Runway 1, traffic on a 6 mile final, just as Bluestreak 5226 is touching down. The intent is to launch two planes in that 6 mile gap. -- As Bluestreak 5226 rolls out on runway 1 and passes the intersection of runway 4, Tower clears Jetblue 1556 for takeoff rwy4. -- Tower then clears Bluestreak 5226 to turn left off of rwy 1 at N after landing, contact ground. The expectation at this point is JetBlue 1556 is mid-takeoff roll. (This is where the near collision occurs with Southwest 2937) -- The plan was that once JetBlue1556 crosses the runway 1 intersection on its takeoff from runway 4 (it likely has a right turn 060 departure heading, the tower is going to clear Southwest 2830 from runway 1 on the SID, which is NW bound. -- Lastly, the tower supervisor clears Southwest 2830 for takeoff runway 1 after the near collision. Even before addressing the Jetblue or Southwest 2937. That's because another plane (unknown call sign) that was 6 miles out a minute or two ago is likely on a 2-mile final, cleared to land I only bring up that sequence as I really think the timing and spacing plays such a pivotal role in tower planning, expectations, and clearances. Who knows why ground told SW2937 to cross 4, or why tower didn't hold JetBlue, or why they miscommunicated, but I think timing is a big part of it. Other general notes: The ground controller voice is not super familiar to me. Maybe new. The guy screaming in the background telling southwest to stop sounds very familiar. The initial tower controller isn't new. The tower supervisor who takes over has been there for a very long time.
Well put! Good call and awareness by the tower supervisor to clear Southwest 2830 for takeoff. You must have been listening for a very long time to be able to recognize all their voices haha
I used to work there. Very nice explanation. The initial tower controller is new (in training) and the ground controller has been there 3 years. The female controller is not a supervisor but a long tenured controller who knows her ish. Communication was not clear ground thought she had permission to cross while jet blue locked in position. Crossings are usually authorized if there is a delay on the release from Center. Jetblue in this instance was already released. The trainee never verified if ground was clear and cleared jet blue based on the timing as you illustrated but forgot to check the first box in the process. Which is confirming ground is clear of the crossing runway. It will be a good lesson for him, and I promise you, HE WONT DO IT AGAIN. Talk about a scare!!
@@gibmodinero8101thank you for those clarifications. I must have the voice of the initial tower controller confused with someone else in my brain. Really great explanation on how they are supposed to verify clear to cross. I also forgot about the additional layer of clearance required from Potomac for the rwy4 departures.
Good job on both Pilots for seeing the conflict. The taxing aircraft stopped before the runway. The aircraft on the roll rejected when they saw the conflict.
Why are there so many such incidents this year alone?!?! And why are almost all of them in the US?!?! I know they have a lot of air traffic, but Europe and Asia high traffic too especially in airports like LHR, AMS, DXB, HKG and CDG, but no notable close calls have been reported from there
Basically every other country is MUCH more conservative with clearances and spacing. The US really stacks those planes up. This allows more flights but if anybody doesn't get a message they're on a collision course. IMO it is just an unsafe way to operate, and all these near misses just make it obvious. It is a matter of time before a lot of people die.
This is the reason why, when I was going through the ground control portion of my training for VATSIM USA, they have a policy in effect that controllers never grant clearance to cross an active runway until the aircraft is actually at that runway. If the runway is closed and not being used, then they can clear its crossing during the rest of the taxi instructions, but not if it's actively being used for departures or arrivals. Seems like that would be a good rule for the real world ATC, too.
In my country. When crossing a runway the instruction has to always come when you reach or are close to the rwy hold short point. Clearing that SWA to cross when he was still on the ramp was a huge mistake and no communication between TWR and gnd controllers
Holy! Looks like that happened this morning and JBU1554 still hasnt even gotten back on track and you already have a video out, complete with appropriate emoji faces and all. You are a pro, sir.
@@MrS7629 They probably had to inspect their brakes after a stop like that. The manufacturer will have specific instructions for how to handle an aborted takeoff and on large planes like that it often includes inspecting the brakes afterwards if they reached a high enough speed before aborting.
All is well that ends well .... I often wonder how many times I have been a passenger and had a near miss without having a clue! Makes me feel very small indeed.
Absolutely agree the SWA flight was given clearance to cross however I can't remember a time I've ever crossed a hold short line without my training telling me to confirm runway is clear of departing/arriving traffic and doing a visual confirmation with the other pilot. It's airmanship 101
I'd have said "Ready to copy phone number for a possible controller deviation..." Had something similar happen to me in MDW. Stay vigilant everyone...Nice job with the video, keep this stuff coming!!
@@soccerguy2433 That's not how that works. If we're only allowed to criticize things we're experts in, why have democracy? Would you prefer to have a dictator since the public is not an expert in making policy? Besides, what makes you think pal2011 is located in America? For all you know they could be an air traffic controller controller (your words) in some other country.
I don't understand this situation yet, but after binge watching these things for a few weeks, this was the first time I've heard a controller raise his/her voice. And from the background, too! As a nonaviator, I was surprised at how viscerally that affected me. I've told my kids to stop like that when they were learning to drive and hearing her was the same feeling. I realized after a moment that I wasn't breathing. Scary.
This was an interesting one. The ground controller obviously wasn't communicating with tower but her comm was also odd. She said "cross 4 at c" she didn't say cleared to cross rwy 4 at c and the pilot clearly said "cleared to cross 4". I wonder what the outcome of this incident was
Good job done in the end. No panic, no angry shouting. Mistake was made, mistake was corrected, just, and everyone went on with their day. Pax will never know.
Pax would have noticed the plane lurching to a stop, holding for 15 minutes while brakes cooled off, and then taxiing back to the gate. That's all a bit hard to hide.
@@lgqst Why Russian? I’m not Russian and I agree with him. Why would you want to risk hundreds of innocent lives just for the sake of appearing progressive?
is it normal for ground to clear someone to cross an active runway in the US? I just normaly see airports have tower handle the taxiways between two runways
Question: I woulda thunk, if you get a taxi instruction that includes crossing a runway, you would still expect to stop WHEN you got to the hold-short line, and wait for ok to cross. Is it normal to get taxi instructions that include crossing a runway after several other steps, without verifying at the moment you get there? I would think that stopping at the hold short line there would be a spot for the ground controller and the tower controller to check in with each other....?
Good thing the flight crews were paying attention! Controllers definitely dropped the ball on this one. Then that call to Bluestreak was timed very unfortunately. DCA seems like it really needs runway status lights if it doesn't have them.
I’m DCA based and there’s a couple controllers there who screw the whole place up. I’m genuinely surprised this doesn’t happen more often. It’s crazy there.
@@kay9549 The problem at DCA is they refuse to use the metering frequency. I’ve sat at the gate trying to get a word in for over 20 minutes. The amount of blocked calls is ridiculous. Very fortunate in this incident that the pilots noticed because even the first stop call was blocked. It’s a clown show there with a few very fine controllers who keep it running. The new ones, however, are a liability and this shows it.
ATC has never given a clearance*) to cross Rwy 04. 0:33 "...cross 4 at charlie ..." Too bad that the pilot readback "...clear to cross 4..." and ATC did not notice the "mistake". *) No idea whether in DCA "cross at " already implicitly contains a clearance, but if the statement is to be correct then "clear to " should appear.
@@saintchuck9857 depends on how literally you're taking the term. What I meant was that the ground controller is local to the airport, and is generally in the tower cab with whoever is on the 'tower' frequency, as opposed to working in a separate location. At the airport I fly out of, there are times that the tower and ground frequencies are manned by the same person if it's not busy.
General question. How many planes does a Ground have moving at once when it's busy? Does it vary by controller in a "I don't care if that guy can move 27 planes at once, I can only keep track of 22, the rest have to wait"? The mental effort seems mighty similar to a short order cook trying to juggle 30 plates on the grill at once, with more orders stacked up behind it because you are capacity (mentally, physical space on your grill/taxiways, or both), and needing to not only get everything right, but make the groups of plates that constitute a table hit the window at the same time despite differing cook times. With the major difference that if you screw up, people die instead of the manager comping a meal.
Runway 4 is not commonly used. DCA has 3 runways, but the majority of ops are on 1/19, with 15/33 as the secondary. As far as I have observed, 22 is never used. Runway 4 is used uncommonly because takeoffs point you directly at a no-fly zone, so require an aggressive right turn after takeoff.
@@dl8513Runway 4 is not commonly used because it’s the shortest of the 3 runways and you’ll only have the takeoff performance for it if you’re relatively light. Runway 4 is pointed at P-56, this is true, but so is runway 1, the main runway.
There's going to be a hull loss due to ATC fuck up at a major US airport within 12 months. The aviation industry can't keep riding its luck like this and seems incapable of sorting its shit out.
Also reform into what? It’s not like we can change how planes taxi, nor can we change how tower and aircraft communicate, so what reform is there? Here there was a single mistake, as is going to happen, and the safety measures stopped it, as they’re supposed to. We’re already designing, testing, and rolling out new equipment to make it clearer when and why a runway or taxiway is foul, but that stuff takes time and money.
Asking because I don't know. How does this usually work? How does Tower know what instructions Ground gave an aircraft crossing a runway? Is there a positive handoff step somewhere? Have had this happen to me once: was given a crossing clearance while a plane was given a landing clearance.
I would also like to know how it works in the US. In the UK, ground does not issue clearances to cross active runways - not even with coordination. The aircraft is instructed to hold short of the runway and transferred to the TWR frequency for the crossing. That way there is less confusion as only one controller is responsible for the runway, and everyone using that runway is on the same frequency as well for situational awareness. When the TWR controller issues the crossing clearance, the flight strip is placed into the runway bay and acts as a 'blocker' which should prevent the controller from clearing anybody to land / take-off until the strip is moved back out of the runway bay once the crossing is complete. Then, if necessary, the aircraft can be transferred back to GND.
Southwest was cleared to cross, yes. BUT: “clear left, clear right, cleared to cross” is supposed to be the catch all here. Now, it’s entirely possible that’s what saved the day, as SWA did say “we’ve stopped,” but it’s really important to make sure we’re doing it all the time, every time. One other observation, DCA has *no* stop bar lights or wig-wags. This needs to be fixed *yesterday,* especially for the crossing of 4. It’s way too easy for someone not familiar with DCA to think that’s just a taxiway.
I think it is also hard to see at that distance whether the JetBlue is waiting or accelerating. Being cleared to cross assumes the lined up traffic is holding.
Southwest isn't responsible for knowing whether JBU has line up and wait instruction (as another aircraft on frequency was given) or whether JBU was cleared takeoff. Yes, it's great situational awareness to try to keep track. I regret your implication that responsibility for this near miss lies with anyone else but ATC. Wig wags or stop bar would not have fixed the situation unless the controller that gave the clearance to cross also turned on the runway stop bar. This is purely a case of ATC giving two conflicting clearances because two controllers were not coordinating. Yes, rare lapse by ATC but also important to identify root cause.
@@ZeroG_Bandit I'm not assigning responsibility to anyone here. Everyone stopped and there wasn't a collision, so both flight crews did a great job, as far as I'm concerned.. I'm just re-iterating the importance of looking out for yourself and your jet, especially in an ambiguous, confusing airport like DCA.
@@ZeroG_Bandit He's not responsible for whether or not JBU has line up and wait instructions, but he IS responsible for the lives of everyone on board. Always crosscheck even if you have ATC clearance.
The root cause of the issue isn't ATC, it's the clearance that allows ATC errors to slip in so easily. This would never occur if runway crossing clearances were only issued immediately before the runway is crossed.
In contrast to the “dangerous” frequency switch that occurred in Toronto last week, no berating, no condescending chatter, just a muted, professional response. Mistakes happen, we’re supposed to learn from them, not verbally take it on the chin like the YYZ occurrence.
@@soupafi.. and chewing one out on the radio makes it safer? 🤦🏼♂️. No.. but investigating why it happened and taking measures to prevent it in the future most certainly does. Their response to what happened was unprofessional and unnecessary.
@@crazyralph6386 .. not a lot frankly. A crew landed on 06R, was cleared to cross 06L which was not in use but they mistakenly switched to a ground frequency. They were then unprofessionally berated by two separate controllers for doing so.
When giving the takeoff clearance the controller hesitated a bit, I wonder if he had some sort of marker or was remembering some prior coordination with ground...
1:15 For the uninitiated, the pause in the controller's voice was him scanning the runway and airspace before issuing the take-off clearance, also, as a retired atc, I think his hesitation was telling...
JFC, yeah this one’s mainly on ATC, but what happened to “Clear left, Clear right” ????? Look out the windows when about to enter a runway, doesn’t matter if you’re cleared across!
@ Through love, perseverance, and good ADM, the crews called upon the help of our Lord and Savior Captain Sullenberger to help land both of the planes on the incorrect runways, then explain it away using 14 CFR Part 91.3(b)! We thank them very much for my service!
Are ATC and Ground Control both sitting in the tower, in the same room as each other? I know they're on different radio frequencies, so how are both controllers supposed to be aware of runway crossings?
Controllers definitely messed up coordination up there. That quick "cross runway 4" during taxi instructions for Southwest, then Tower clearing Jetblue to take off... Also sounds like someone is in training in the tower?
I beg familiar DCA pilots and controllers, if you're reading this, please email for further information on how operations work there when landing on 1 and departing on both 1 and 4.
Damm
Agreed, the taxi instructions should have advised Southwest to hold short of the runway, or to hold the other aircraft and allow Southwest to cross prior to clearance for takeoff. ATC definitely lost their situational awareness here.
Part of it sounded like Tower and Ground don't know what the other was doing. Ground either ordered or allowed Southwest to think they were clear to cross 4 when Tower gave permission to Jet Blue to take off.
Hey Victor, might want to edit your comment: "I beg familiar DCA pilots and controllers, if you're reading this, please email for further information..."
Man oh man. We seem to be just avoiding more and more disasters lately.
This channel gets this up even before the FAA administrator reads about it on the daily briefing.
Great team of witnesses out there
And we love this channel!
In which other way would you want to explain what happened here then ?
Which should be a sign that he needs to make a change to how his agency runs operations!
Operations at the field are tight. And Congress is holding up FAA reauthorization partly over INCREASING the currently restricted flights into DCA.
I really like the highlighting of the actively-talking plane combined with the darkening of the rest of the map. Please keep doing that, it's really helpful! Also, the map detail is fantastic. Nicely done!
Exactly!! Very good observation to a very complicated situation. Without the highlights, I would have difficulty understanding how everything was proceeding. Yes, I have hearing problems and no, I don't have a hearing aid yet, I have tried a couple and they were seriously lacking in performance.
I was going to say this is a feature that has come to be very helpful in their videos
Yes! Excellent work
Yes I like how he put the charts as well
A very wise flight instructor once told me in training that “if ATC makes a mistake they still go home that night. If you make a mistake you are likely not going home that night.” Words to live by for every pilot out there.
I like the more grim "If a pilot screws up, he dies. If ATC screws up, he still dies"
well, they can go home but also to prison.
Well there was that video they posted recently where a plane almost hit the ATC tower...
@@vanessaruiz4705 only if it was deliberate, and can be conclusively proven as such.
A phrase that always pops in my head when people consider fault vs outcome, you don't want "it wasn't technically my fault" on your tombstone.
in this case, "i guess we need a phone number" is the polite form of "i want to talk to your boss!"
"Possible Tower Deviation" ;)
At that point the Southwest pilot probably thought they were the ones who screwed up. They likely thought they misheard the instruction to cross and the controller didn't catch their supposed readback mistake. The voice sounds like the pilot thinks his career is in jeopardy from making a mistake that could've killed hundreds of people.
I'm sure it'll be a relief for him to hear the tapes and know it wasn't primarily his mistake (though he could've confirmed,) but in the moment he must have been feeling quite terrible thinking it was his error.
It was a different voice asking for the phone number....my guess it was the Captain
@@arantala The Southwest immediately verbalized that they were cleared to cross when they read back that they were stopping, I don't think they thought they were in the wrong.
@@arantalaYeah, I thought the same thing.
It's a hair raiser when *_a new voice_* jumps on the coms and rapidly gives the stop order.
No kidding. What's really scary is when something like this happens and several people notice it at the same time, so everyone jumps on the radio to warn them, stomping on eachother's signal and no one hears anything! I've seen that happen numerous times!
Incidentally, Washington-Reagan DCA is a big enough airport, I bet they have a runway incursion detection system which would set off all sorts of alarm bells at the tower.
FM frequency capture is great for noise reduction when there's one transmitting station, real bad when you need to talk over someone urgently..... maybe Guard should be changed to use AM or SSB?
@@hotlavatube This was a contributing factor in Tenerife. Several important transmissions were lost because people were stomping on each other, any one of which could have prevented the disaster which was almost duplicated here!
I think in this case the controller might have been training and either the tower supervisor came on or the training controller was relived once the situation occurred. You can actually hear the voice in the background saying “ tell the Southwest to stop!” Even before she takes over the position.
@@donwald3436 AM with TDMA?
That Southwest dude took it like a champ! Just give me the number, I did nothing wrong anyway. He was clearly cleared.
Clearly cleared Roger roger.
yes but your listening to the frequency and see another plane starting to roll, you would think its a good idea to stop. 100% on ATC tho
@@a_goblue2023 Would have the SWA been on the frequency to hear the AA takeoff clearance?
@@zaphodbeeblebrox2911 they should have switched to tower before they crossed 4
@@amazer747 Check, Chuck.
Southwest indeed was cleared to cross and clearly read back the clearance.
Did you hear cleared to cross then, I didn't.
@@DropdudeJohn 0:32 since you seem to have missed it "Cross 4 at Charlie"
@@DropdudeJohn I heard and the subtitle also have that...
Tower say: "K, C, cross 4 at C"
Southwest: "going to 1, K, C, cleared to cross 4"
@@DropdudeJohn clearly cleared at 0:36
@@DropdudeJohn That and GND can clear to cross a runway?
Yup...went back and re-listened. SWA was given clearance to cross runway 4 and his read back included the instruction to cross runway 4. This one is on ATC for sure.
except that before crossing a runway you should LOOK to see if it is "clear" left and right. If they collided, NTSB would very likely have put some fault on SW unless vis was less than 500 RVR.
@@rchilds527 We always light the plane up and clear both directions before crossing a runway. But this one is on ATC. Big time. The difference is, a pilot can get a violation that will seriously effect her career. ATC? Maybe a retrain, I don't know.
@@rchilds527 They wouldn't have known if the aircraft was in position and holding or was cleared for takeoff. Don’t think NTSB would have expected them to discern the pilots intention or to hear radio traffic on another frequency.
@@country_boy9180 this is where it goes into the weeds. Would a "reasonable person" notice an aircraft on a runway with all its lights on, moving in their direction, still proceed to cross? Yes, ATC is at fault 99%, but it's up to us to verify a runway is safe before crossing. Low vis? Yeah, have to trust ATC and ground radar if available. "Clear and a million?" We have to verify safe to cross.
You can’t always even see the end of a runway with sloping terrain
Vas, your individual aircraft identifiers is an awesome improvement. Well done.
That one was on ATC. Good lord.
Perhaps, but isn't the safety net that pilots are supposed to look both ways when crossing or entering a runway to be sure no one is coming or on final for that runway?
Southwest said he was stopping so I'm assuming they caught it but ATC was in full "oh shit" mode.
@@ljfinger They probably did, and it may have looked like Jetblue wasn't moving, due to being on the initial part of the takeoff roll.
@@ljfingerthey seemed to be stopping
Controller change. I always verbalize that when I hear it. It seems like a matter of “when” not “if” …it’s getting scary out there.
I really appreciate the graphic. This video in particular I can see the effort that went in to making the visuals easy to understand. Thank you!
Just noticed that CBS News used your graphics on their news report concerning this incident. Impressive.
Another contributing factor is that the planes were on different frequencies as SWA was instructed to switch to tower when on the other side of runway 4...
and other things
Trying a bit too hard to NOT NOTICE the obvious thing about this particular situation.
Is the different frequencies thing an issue for the billion other times airplanes taxied and took off here?
@dr3v1l1993 Most pilots are actively looking out for this. I know that Lufthansa for example trains their pilots to mentally "lock in" any runway number they are cleared to cross or go onto and listen out to ANY mention of that number from that point on, so you quick spot a potential conflicting clearance.
@@bosshog8844 Only if the controllers made a similar mistake. The cause of the situation was conflicting instructions from controllers. Had the planes been on the same frequency it is possible the pilots might have noticed the conflict sooner and been able to avoid it; in other words, the fact that neither plane could hear the instructions given to the other decreased the chances of the situation being caught and therefore contributed to the chances of it occurring.
@@bosshog8844 You're trying a bit too hard to not comprehend the meaning of ANOTHER CONTRIBUTING factor...
The woman who stepped on, I was based at DCa for years. I recognize her voice. That woman is the best controller in the NAS and I’ll argue with anyone over that.
She wasn’t the one who messed up, that would be the ground controller, who sounded anything BUT a ATC!!!
Southwest was correct, great situational awareness there to realize the bad instruction. Great job as usual getting these up so quickly, Victor!
Thank you for watching
What's ur Vector, victor?
Roger, Rodger.
@@THRASHMETALFUNRIFFSSurely you can’t be serious with a comment like that.
@@VASAviation -you are AWESOME to get this stuff out so fast!
well he realized the bad instruction but kept going and was about to cross the runway anyway... and from the runway angle, the southwest could have clearly seen that the Jetblue was rolling. Not saying the fault was on southwest pilot but a visual check before crossing the runway not matter what the ATC clearance is should be a must ! At least it is the case in the airline I fly for.
@VASAviation, Yesterday we were flying KSDF to KMSP and heard a pipeline declare mayday on guard somewhere in the vicinity of the Iowa City VOR (IOW). He was coming in broken but it sounded like he said he had a midair with something and was trying to maintain altitude. Would have been somewhere around 22:00Z.
As an ATC in France it seems crazy to me that Ground controller is allowed to make planes cross an active runway. Here all active runways are under the responsibility of Tower controller.
Runways de-ranked as taxiways are another story though.
US ATC procedures are very aggressive compared to just about everywhere else. It is routine to issue landing clearances to one aircraft before the one ahead of it in sequence has even landed. If a radio fails or comms collide then you're relying on pilots seeing the other aircraft and going around on their own.
It is definitely not a fail-safe system.
@@RichFreeman Yeah, that landing clearance thing with the runway occupied is crazy... seems like an "exception" thing that rapidly became routine...
@@aboriani the US term is time-based separation and it is completely routine here. Obviously on routes everybody separates based on time. The problem is that with a runway there are way more variables - the plane is stopping and needs to vacate the runway, so it isn't just flying in a straight line at constant speed. Any number of things can easily cause the plane to dwell on the runway.
@@RichFreemanI know, maybe that’s the only option with the volume of traffic you have in the US, but saying “runway is occupied, continue approach” and then clear the landing when the runway is actually clear is not a bad option either, considering the risk mitigation in doing that.
But again, I don’t fly in the US and I’m not familiar with the challenges you have there.
@@aboriani oh, I'd absolutely do it the way you suggest. I'd just reduce capacity and institute positive control, and auction off landing slots. Then build more airports if needed. It isn't worth compromising safety just to avoid having to deal with zoning fights.
I immediately got worried when the clearance to cross 4 was giving SO early. Isn't it more usually to give a 'hold short' and only when they get there to give them the clearance? Wonder whether there is a protocol there?
Not at DCA. This is a common instruction/clearance. Well, WAS as ATC will be changing procedures after this happened, I suspect.
@@av8tor1908 I'm not an expert, but it's bizarre to me that permission to cross a runway and permission to take off from that same runway are not done on the same frequency. The whole "tower on the other side [of the runway]" thing doesn't make sense to me. You'd think that any instructions involving movement on a specific runway would be handled by the same controller for precisely this reason.
Go to ORD, they do this all the time with 50 other taxi instructions on top of that. It could take you 20 minutes to get to the runway crossing, but you got the clearance, so DON'T STOP!
@@erauprcwa Yeah, ORD GND ATC says instructions as fast as possible with 5 or 6 taxiways and they wonder why guys screw up.
@@guspaz Lucky no one was killed today. What’s puzzling to me is neither crew seems to have saw each other, nor took action until ATC screamed on the radio to stop. It’s a short distance between them where this occurred. Weather was good and both planes would’ve had all their lights on while crossing the runway/taking off….
I'm based in DCA. Lots of training, and they are getting too close for comfort for the last couple of months. Departing traffic with final traffic at 2 mi, loading crossing runways with line up and wait traffic. DCA tower and ground have been really pushing it lately. Every pre-departure briefing the number 1 threat we brief is DCA controllers and to stay on our toes.
In the last several years Runway 15/33 has become routinely used for commercial departures. In the last few months Runway 4 has as well. 3 runways now are used for commercial departures. I know this just by seeing DCA from my living room and can attest in the past few weeks the departures are in much tighter frequencies than ever before.
Fly into DCA a lot as well. Somehow, it's still a debate as to whether or not to add more flights to DCA. The DCA controllers are usually pretty good at keeping the flow going safely, but if you push any system to its max something is gonna give.
@@mcleanirish airliners on these runways is normal. Ive landed an Airbus on 33 many times. The problem is having aircraft on short final, multiple line up and wait aircraft, and one on a takeoff roll. Its chaos and DC ATC lacks the situational awareness to pull this off
@@TanTran-xe4mb there should not be training at this airport. Additional flight at this point in time is a very bad idea imo
@@dcxplant certain members of Congress are pushing for it
That golden moment when a pilot requests the phone number, rather than receiving the dreaded "I have a phone number for you". Major f*ck up in the tower...
Luckily this was in good visibility which surely helped both aircraft and also ATC spot the conflict. We don't separate aircraft on luck.
DCA wouldn't be launching off both runways in this configuration if the weather was bad. Not would they be giving the clearances they were due to higher separation requirements.
@@kmlevel seems like they maybe they shouldn't have been doing it in good weather either considering they nearly put two jets together. Live and learn I suppose.
We‘ve been getting these types of incidents at an almost weekly bases. The US seems to have a serious problem with runway incursions due to what I would guess is congested airports, overworked ATC and an apparent lack off safety systems. You‘d hope that after the JAL a350 accident every countries aviation authority would look into this topic.
Now post all the times we save y’all’s ass and say nothing
@@CR-mv4rldon’t get defensive, we know that not every controller is like this. But when the consequences are hundreds dying, we have to focus on fixing every mistake, and preventing them. Better safety systems at airports would go a long way, relying on humans always leaves risk.
erm...that is sort of, your job, y'know...?@@CR-mv4rl
PERFECT video with the audio. Thank you very much for this adding
Great job by both pilots. They did proper readbacks, but they also both had good situational awareness and took appropriate action for the safety of their passengers.
Both pilots were champs. Nobody blew their stack, and both were perfect gentlemen. ATC is going to have to look at their procedures, as both pilots were clearly instructed to proceed, and gave proper readback.
Gobsmacked how quickly this video was put together. Well done!
Yep, that's on ATC for sure. DC Reagan absolutely needs a metering frequency to manage pushbacks, it is very difficult to handle both pushback and taxi clearances for so many aircraft and it shows that the challenge is causing errors.
Definitely needs a metering frequency. During the busy push times it can be nearly impossible to get a word in with Ground.
Southwest got it doubly right. He was told to cross 4 and in his readback he even added the word "cleared" as "cleared to cross 4", almost as if his pilot spidey sense felt a problem was in the offing.
And then they didn’t bother to look out the window before crossing.
@@joetheairbusguy1813 THIS. Both pilot heads up and scanning before crossing a hold short. Hell even add a clear left, clear right.
@@joetheairbusguy1813they were looking, that’s the only reason they were able to stop short of the runway. Takes a few seconds to see that an aircraft is starting its takeoff roll, especially when it’s mostly heading towards you. They probably thought the jet blue was told to line up and wait, until they saw the jet barreling down on them.
I think this is highlights a flaw in procedure. If the taxi directions include cross a runway does that mean they’re automatically cleared to do so? Or do they have to get separate permission to cross an active runway? Clearly it should be the latter
@@digitalhen: if the taxi clearance telsl you to cross a runway, that's clearance to cross the runway. If they don't want to clear you to cross the runway the clearance tells you to hold short the runway.
Tower goes on, pretending nothing happened and Southwest is like “nah, give me a phone number, I will have the talk”
No choice, in either case. You expect the tower to go and have a coffee and a cry?
They needed to take a deep breath and settle down. They sounded like they took a deep breath and was waiting for their heartbeat to get back to normal.
The voices changed. Some people got pulled and the supervisor took over.
Oh no they were definitely aware of what happened and the supervisor took over
@@rhanemann9100 in some countries it is mandatory for the controller to have a break and write the report.
I worked at Ohare Airport moving planes, I was shocked how many incompetent people were working there. There should be standards on hiring people when it comes to Aviation.
There's not nearly enough people with high standards to hire anymore.
As a pilot who operates into and out of DCA often, this is not surprising.
What is the cause of the uptick? Or has it always been this way?
If that was today, quick on getting it up and Jet Blue is still on the ground with a 6 hour delay
Overheated brakes?
Possible controller deviation. Please copy this number.
Thats a huge screw up by the controller. This stuff is pilling up
The standards have dropped and we're seeing the results. It's only a matter of time. This is happening far too often and we've been lucky so far.
Needed 87,000 IRS agents instead of competent air traffic controllers
@@v1rotate391 shouldn't be an instead of as we also need competent people at IRS.
@@lu4414 ATC comes first!!
@ObamaFromKenya Oh BS, they follow the law better than you do, They pay tax lawyers to ensure compliance. Clown
What is wrong with ATC in USA currently. So many near misses.
It’s who they’re hiring, and the lowered standards in order to fill that quota.
Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. www.faa.gov/deia
DEI
This channel is gold.
Oh, thanks!
Just saw this on NBC news. Wife says, WOW wonder what it sounded like happening. HANG On honey.. pulls up VASAviation.
😂
now she is glued to the computer and says cook your own dam dinner rofl
Wow! Nice job on the part of both crews avoiding a collision in spite of conflicting intructions.
Tower asking how much time they need to clean out their drawers
Crisis of competence is only going to get worse.
First close call since January in DC. Glad everyone is ok. Thanks for the video VASAviation!
Great job @vasaviation. I listen to the DCA feed often as my office overlooks the airport and its fascinating.
One thing I think missing from this video is the nuance of the timing of the other aircraft and how tight the sequencing is in such a busy space at DCA. Let me explain.
--Tower clears Southwest 2830 (the other southwest aircraft) to line up and wait, Runway 1, traffic on a 6 mile final, just as Bluestreak 5226 is touching down. The intent is to launch two planes in that 6 mile gap.
-- As Bluestreak 5226 rolls out on runway 1 and passes the intersection of runway 4, Tower clears Jetblue 1556 for takeoff rwy4.
-- Tower then clears Bluestreak 5226 to turn left off of rwy 1 at N after landing, contact ground. The expectation at this point is JetBlue 1556 is mid-takeoff roll. (This is where the near collision occurs with Southwest 2937)
-- The plan was that once JetBlue1556 crosses the runway 1 intersection on its takeoff from runway 4 (it likely has a right turn 060 departure heading, the tower is going to clear Southwest 2830 from runway 1 on the SID, which is NW bound.
-- Lastly, the tower supervisor clears Southwest 2830 for takeoff runway 1 after the near collision. Even before addressing the Jetblue or Southwest 2937. That's because another plane (unknown call sign) that was 6 miles out a minute or two ago is likely on a 2-mile final, cleared to land
I only bring up that sequence as I really think the timing and spacing plays such a pivotal role in tower planning, expectations, and clearances. Who knows why ground told SW2937 to cross 4, or why tower didn't hold JetBlue, or why they miscommunicated, but I think timing is a big part of it.
Other general notes: The ground controller voice is not super familiar to me. Maybe new. The guy screaming in the background telling southwest to stop sounds very familiar. The initial tower controller isn't new. The tower supervisor who takes over has been there for a very long time.
Thank you very much for your extended information and feedback
Perhaps ground expected Southwest be slower and not reach the runway to cross until after JetBlue had passed the taxiway on takeoff?
Well put! Good call and awareness by the tower supervisor to clear Southwest 2830 for takeoff. You must have been listening for a very long time to be able to recognize all their voices haha
I used to work there. Very nice explanation. The initial tower controller is new (in training) and the ground controller has been there 3 years. The female controller is not a supervisor but a long tenured controller who knows her ish. Communication was not clear ground thought she had permission to cross while jet blue locked in position. Crossings are usually authorized if there is a delay on the release from Center. Jetblue in this instance was already released. The trainee never verified if ground was clear and cleared jet blue based on the timing as you illustrated but forgot to check the first box in the process. Which is confirming ground is clear of the crossing runway. It will be a good lesson for him, and I promise you, HE WONT DO IT AGAIN. Talk about a scare!!
@@gibmodinero8101thank you for those clarifications. I must have the voice of the initial tower controller confused with someone else in my brain.
Really great explanation on how they are supposed to verify clear to cross. I also forgot about the additional layer of clearance required from Potomac for the rwy4 departures.
The law of averages is going to catch up. One just can't have these kinds of close call all the time.
'Didn't Earn It'
Good job on both Pilots for seeing the conflict. The taxing aircraft stopped before the runway. The aircraft on the roll rejected when they saw the conflict.
Thank you very much for picking those Incidents up and publishing them!👍
Thats one where the pilot should ask ground if they are ready to copy a phone number.
Yes, near disaster, but luckily, the issue was realized and immediately addressed as needed. Great job by all on avoiding disaster!
Why are there so many such incidents this year alone?!?! And why are almost all of them in the US?!?! I know they have a lot of air traffic, but Europe and Asia high traffic too especially in airports like LHR, AMS, DXB, HKG and CDG, but no notable close calls have been reported from there
Basically every other country is MUCH more conservative with clearances and spacing. The US really stacks those planes up. This allows more flights but if anybody doesn't get a message they're on a collision course.
IMO it is just an unsafe way to operate, and all these near misses just make it obvious. It is a matter of time before a lot of people die.
This is the reason why, when I was going through the ground control portion of my training for VATSIM USA, they have a policy in effect that controllers never grant clearance to cross an active runway until the aircraft is actually at that runway. If the runway is closed and not being used, then they can clear its crossing during the rest of the taxi instructions, but not if it's actively being used for departures or arrivals.
Seems like that would be a good rule for the real world ATC, too.
At least everyone responded appropriately and no one got hurt.
In my country. When crossing a runway the instruction has to always come when you reach or are close to the rwy hold short point. Clearing that SWA to cross when he was still on the ramp was a huge mistake and no communication between TWR and gnd controllers
I bet that JetBlue pilot was shaking after that. Holy hell.
2:57 - Asking for a phone number. More devastating than yelling at tower.
Holy! Looks like that happened this morning and JBU1554 still hasnt even gotten back on track and you already have a video out, complete with appropriate emoji faces and all.
You are a pro, sir.
@@MrS7629 Seems like one (or both) pilots didn't feel like flying anymore that day.
That flight may have gotten re-crewed.
@AEMoreira81 re-pants for sure anyways.
@@MrS7629 They probably had to inspect their brakes after a stop like that. The manufacturer will have specific instructions for how to handle an aborted takeoff and on large planes like that it often includes inspecting the brakes afterwards if they reached a high enough speed before aborting.
All is well that ends well .... I often wonder how many times I have been a passenger and had a near miss without having a clue! Makes me feel very small indeed.
It is only a matter of time before a lot of people die in an incursion like this. I'd rather be late than dead.
Its going to be harder ton convince the higher ups. Delays are a nuissance but this can also impact capacity and the airports bottom line.
@@cibularas3485sad but true...
I love that wrong readback from the Swiss at the end, but the controller caught it. Good job!
Why the pilot needs a number? Looks like ATC needs one
Pilot still has to call but he’s well aware he’s not in any trouble.
Absolutely agree the SWA flight was given clearance to cross however I can't remember a time I've ever crossed a hold short line without my training telling me to confirm runway is clear of departing/arriving traffic and doing a visual confirmation with the other pilot. It's airmanship 101
With that busy of an airport, surprising ground would clear anyone in advance to cross active runways
Yeah, I guess that would be perfectly previously coordinated to issue a cross that soon.
Poor process, poor performance.
Only in the US would they use seperate frequencies for the same active runway. Thats some dumb shit right there.
4 is rarely used for departure. I can see how it would slip a mind.
@@poke-s2k so you’re saying they should have local and ground on the same frequency?
I'd have said "Ready to copy phone number for a possible controller deviation..." Had something similar happen to me in MDW. Stay vigilant everyone...Nice job with the video, keep this stuff coming!!
When did they hire TSA to do air traffic control?
They're only temps, until the former fast-food people being fired in California can get there on the Greyhound . . .
This is the reason why I would ask again every time before crossing a runway “confirm cross rwy 4?” (when an aircraft is lining up or on final)
Can we go a week without ATC causing another near disaster in America? Jesus.
Based on VASAviation's uploads, yes 🙂
Pretty please!
go be an ATC controller. be part of the solution and not just some keyboard jockey
@@soccerguy2433 That's not how that works. If we're only allowed to criticize things we're experts in, why have democracy? Would you prefer to have a dictator since the public is not an expert in making policy? Besides, what makes you think pal2011 is located in America? For all you know they could be an air traffic controller controller (your words) in some other country.
It’s gonna get worse and we have a pathetic. Dot secretary who isn’t helping. Should have resigned months ago
I don't understand this situation yet, but after binge watching these things for a few weeks, this was the first time I've heard a controller raise his/her voice. And from the background, too! As a nonaviator, I was surprised at how viscerally that affected me. I've told my kids to stop like that when they were learning to drive and hearing her was the same feeling. I realized after a moment that I wasn't breathing. Scary.
ATC be really polite when they know they f'd up haha
This was an interesting one. The ground controller obviously wasn't communicating with tower but her comm was also odd. She said "cross 4 at c" she didn't say cleared to cross rwy 4 at c and the pilot clearly said "cleared to cross 4". I wonder what the outcome of this incident was
Good job done in the end. No panic, no angry shouting. Mistake was made, mistake was corrected, just, and everyone went on with their day. Pax will never know.
They know NOW.
Pax would have noticed the plane lurching to a stop, holding for 15 minutes while brakes cooled off, and then taxiing back to the gate. That's all a bit hard to hide.
Yea, when non-DEI people were on frequency it was safe again.
@@arthurfoyt6727 spotted the Russian troll
@@lgqst Why Russian? I’m not Russian and I agree with him. Why would you want to risk hundreds of innocent lives just for the sake of appearing progressive?
That was sickening. ATC cleared SWA to cross runway 4 right here: :32 Victor, this is a great illustration to go with the audio!
is it normal for ground to clear someone to cross an active runway in the US? I just normaly see airports have tower handle the taxiways between two runways
Yes, as a ground controller you can yell over to local and say "one to cross runway 4 at C" and local would say something like "cross 4 at c"
It is quite usual, yes.
How do Ground controllers and Tower controllers coordinate runway crossings? Are they talking to each other?
Thank you, VAS.
Question: I woulda thunk, if you get a taxi instruction that includes crossing a runway, you would still expect to stop WHEN you got to the hold-short line, and wait for ok to cross. Is it normal to get taxi instructions that include crossing a runway after several other steps, without verifying at the moment you get there? I would think that stopping at the hold short line there would be a spot for the ground controller and the tower controller to check in with each other....?
Good thing the flight crews were paying attention! Controllers definitely dropped the ball on this one. Then that call to Bluestreak was timed very unfortunately.
DCA seems like it really needs runway status lights if it doesn't have them.
Any idea why Jet Blue went back to gate? Pilots' nerves shot?
I’m DCA based and there’s a couple controllers there who screw the whole place up. I’m genuinely surprised this doesn’t happen more often. It’s crazy there.
diversity hires not based on qualifications but shoehorned in to make a quota?
Unfortunately these incursions have happened at other airports it did not matter how the weather was behaving. This happened during the day correct
@@kay9549 The problem at DCA is they refuse to use the metering frequency. I’ve sat at the gate trying to get a word in for over 20 minutes. The amount of blocked calls is ridiculous. Very fortunate in this incident that the pilots noticed because even the first stop call was blocked. It’s a clown show there with a few very fine controllers who keep it running. The new ones, however, are a liability and this shows it.
@@kaijohnson5033God help them when the experienced controllers quit or retire early?
ATC has never given a clearance*) to cross Rwy 04.
0:33 "...cross 4 at charlie ..."
Too bad that the pilot readback "...clear to cross 4..." and ATC did not notice the "mistake".
*) No idea whether in DCA "cross at " already implicitly contains a clearance, but if the statement is to be correct then "clear to " should appear.
This is why the local or tower controller should be doing all the runway crossing instructions, not ground.
Ground is a local controller.
@@stephenp448 No. Ground controller and local controller aren't the same thing.
@@saintchuck9857 depends on how literally you're taking the term. What I meant was that the ground controller is local to the airport, and is generally in the tower cab with whoever is on the 'tower' frequency, as opposed to working in a separate location. At the airport I fly out of, there are times that the tower and ground frequencies are manned by the same person if it's not busy.
Always helps to listen to all of atc instructions
Rachel saves the day! Love her!!!!!
Is she the female voice that took over from the DCA TWR male controller that had given the take off clearence?
Diversity hires in the tower cab. No surprise when this is the outcome.
General question.
How many planes does a Ground have moving at once when it's busy? Does it vary by controller in a "I don't care if that guy can move 27 planes at once, I can only keep track of 22, the rest have to wait"?
The mental effort seems mighty similar to a short order cook trying to juggle 30 plates on the grill at once, with more orders stacked up behind it because you are capacity (mentally, physical space on your grill/taxiways, or both), and needing to not only get everything right, but make the groups of plates that constitute a table hit the window at the same time despite differing cook times.
With the major difference that if you screw up, people die instead of the manager comping a meal.
Clearly what happens when you don't take the best and the brightest for the position of ATC anymore.
This is the not the first time this controller has done this
This is one clusterf***k of an airport layout.
Yep, getting out and in is a clusterfuck as well with the airspace restrictions.
You are right about that. I flew out DCA and IAD for a long time. IAD used to be chill back in the day, not so for DCA.
Runway 4 is not commonly used. DCA has 3 runways, but the majority of ops are on 1/19, with 15/33 as the secondary. As far as I have observed, 22 is never used. Runway 4 is used uncommonly because takeoffs point you directly at a no-fly zone, so require an aggressive right turn after takeoff.
@ObamaFromKenya Assisted Living House
@@dl8513Runway 4 is not commonly used because it’s the shortest of the 3 runways and you’ll only have the takeoff performance for it if you’re relatively light. Runway 4 is pointed at P-56, this is true, but so is runway 1, the main runway.
There's going to be a hull loss due to ATC fuck up at a major US airport within 12 months. The aviation industry can't keep riding its luck like this and seems incapable of sorting its shit out.
woah nelly that was too close!
I've been on that flight about 100 times in the E190, and never used a runway other than 1/19.
Every day we get closer to a Tenerife disaster. There really needs to be reform in how planes are coordinated on the ground.
Well Tenerife was in fog and the controllers didn’t FU.
Also reform into what?
It’s not like we can change how planes taxi, nor can we change how tower and aircraft communicate, so what reform is there?
Here there was a single mistake, as is going to happen, and the safety measures stopped it, as they’re supposed to.
We’re already designing, testing, and rolling out new equipment to make it clearer when and why a runway or taxiway is foul, but that stuff takes time and money.
@@DeltaEntropy There is always better ways to do things. With a perfect system, something like this should not be happening.
@@adityanair5613 we’re never going to have a perfect system because perfection isn’t achievable.
Just saying we need reform doesn’t mean anything.
@@adityanair5613lmao perfection doesn’t happen
Asking because I don't know. How does this usually work? How does Tower know what instructions Ground gave an aircraft crossing a runway? Is there a positive handoff step somewhere?
Have had this happen to me once: was given a crossing clearance while a plane was given a landing clearance.
I would also like to know how it works in the US.
In the UK, ground does not issue clearances to cross active runways - not even with coordination. The aircraft is instructed to hold short of the runway and transferred to the TWR frequency for the crossing. That way there is less confusion as only one controller is responsible for the runway, and everyone using that runway is on the same frequency as well for situational awareness. When the TWR controller issues the crossing clearance, the flight strip is placed into the runway bay and acts as a 'blocker' which should prevent the controller from clearing anybody to land / take-off until the strip is moved back out of the runway bay once the crossing is complete. Then, if necessary, the aircraft can be transferred back to GND.
Southwest was cleared to cross, yes. BUT: “clear left, clear right, cleared to cross” is supposed to be the catch all here. Now, it’s entirely possible that’s what saved the day, as SWA did say “we’ve stopped,” but it’s really important to make sure we’re doing it all the time, every time. One other observation, DCA has *no* stop bar lights or wig-wags. This needs to be fixed *yesterday,* especially for the crossing of 4. It’s way too easy for someone not familiar with DCA to think that’s just a taxiway.
I think it is also hard to see at that distance whether the JetBlue is waiting or accelerating. Being cleared to cross assumes the lined up traffic is holding.
Southwest isn't responsible for knowing whether JBU has line up and wait instruction (as another aircraft on frequency was given) or whether JBU was cleared takeoff. Yes, it's great situational awareness to try to keep track. I regret your implication that responsibility for this near miss lies with anyone else but ATC.
Wig wags or stop bar would not have fixed the situation unless the controller that gave the clearance to cross also turned on the runway stop bar.
This is purely a case of ATC giving two conflicting clearances because two controllers were not coordinating. Yes, rare lapse by ATC but also important to identify root cause.
@@ZeroG_Bandit I'm not assigning responsibility to anyone here. Everyone stopped and there wasn't a collision, so both flight crews did a great job, as far as I'm concerned.. I'm just re-iterating the importance of looking out for yourself and your jet, especially in an ambiguous, confusing airport like DCA.
@@ZeroG_Bandit He's not responsible for whether or not JBU has line up and wait instructions, but he IS responsible for the lives of everyone on board. Always crosscheck even if you have ATC clearance.
The root cause of the issue isn't ATC, it's the clearance that allows ATC errors to slip in so easily. This would never occur if runway crossing clearances were only issued immediately before the runway is crossed.
This crap keeps happening more and more often in the US. Absolutely ridiculous.
In contrast to the “dangerous” frequency switch that occurred in Toronto last week, no berating, no condescending chatter, just a muted, professional response. Mistakes happen, we’re supposed to learn from them, not verbally take it on the chin like the YYZ occurrence.
Yeah, but the thing is, in that business, a mistake can kill a lot of people
@@soupafi.. and chewing one out on the radio makes it safer? 🤦🏼♂️. No.. but investigating why it happened and taking measures to prevent it in the future most certainly does. Their response to what happened was unprofessional and unnecessary.
@@theflyingrealestateagent2828what happened at YYZ? someone who arrived there 4 days ago!
@@crazyralph6386 .. not a lot frankly. A crew landed on 06R, was cleared to cross 06L which was not in use but they mistakenly switched to a ground frequency. They were then unprofessionally berated by two separate controllers for doing so.
@@theflyingrealestateagent2828 got it, thanks!
When giving the takeoff clearance the controller hesitated a bit, I wonder if he had some sort of marker or was remembering some prior coordination with ground...
Yep, I noticed that as well.
Is there some sort of automated runway incursion alerting system installed at DCA?
What could be the reason for JetBlue waiting 15 minutes and then goes back to the gate? Hot brakes?
1:15 For the uninitiated, the pause in the controller's voice was him scanning the runway and airspace before issuing the take-off clearance, also, as a retired atc, I think his hesitation was telling...
I noticed, but am uninitiated. What opened there?
JFC, yeah this one’s mainly on ATC, but what happened to “Clear left, Clear right” ????? Look out the windows when about to enter a runway, doesn’t matter if you’re cleared across!
This is Boeings fault some how
Comment of the day! We all know that we can blame this on the Boeing E190.
@@matthewblackwell8848 The two Jumbo Jets came close to disaster after the TCAS malfunctioned!
@ Through love, perseverance, and good ADM, the crews called upon the help of our Lord and Savior Captain Sullenberger to help land both of the planes on the incorrect runways, then explain it away using 14 CFR Part 91.3(b)! We thank them very much for my service!
This made me lol
I heard it was Trump's fault
Are ATC and Ground Control both sitting in the tower, in the same room as each other? I know they're on different radio frequencies, so how are both controllers supposed to be aware of runway crossings?