The Deus Ex Machina TPK saving rival group can be also used to make one of the rivals sacrifice himself. This way the party could feel guilty for not taking the fatal blow they could have and the rival team can blame them for the death of their beloved party member. The players could decide whether they compensate somehow or accept their new adversaries.
Another great use of rivals: if your players are taking ”too many rests”, i.e. Long resting at noon to get 2 spell slots back before the next encounter, send in the rival party to get the loot. Knowing that someone else will take your stuff if you’re being too slow is a great way to add weight to the decision of rest or keep going!
You could even have the rival party show up just as the PCs are about to make camp. Taunting the PCs about how while they're sitting around doing nothing, the rival party are going to clear out the dungeon.
You've inspired me for my next campaign. Each of the first little adventures have a different party npc that helps with the job somehow and each mirrors a PC. Then the adventurers they helped band together off screen and become friendly competition. This way, there's urgency to completing jobs that isn't just "if you don't hurry, everyone dies".
The last campaign I ran, one of the PCs had a twin brother and they were competing for the affection of their asshole father. They constantly tried to one up each other to the point of eventually coming to grips and killing the NPC only to have him be revived by the BBEG. Rivals turning into bosses is definitely one of my favorite tropes.
@@ZipperonDisney Yup and the PC had made a pact with an angel to not kill his brother again while also having a contract from a devil saying he needed to kill his brother. In the end he managed to save him and kill the devil he made a contract with but that is a whole nother story.
One of my players is a BloodHunter, for his lvl3 Lycantrophy subclass I had him and his 1 other party member transported to the Shadowfell where they battled a shadow version of him, which eventually morphed into Lycan form. Lair actions made it an epic arena fight and the players felt really good about earning their level-up by literally defeating a personal demon.
Yes! I've used a rival group a couple years ago with my party who "took too long" to get moving on the main quest. It had a great effect, just by mentioning their names and suggesting they were targeting the same villain. My party actually skipped out of town a night early just to beat the rival competition to the next spot. Then they had a built-in challenge and reason to protect the macguffin, which meant they started thinking about ways of securing it BEFORE the threat presented itself. As you said, they are a competition, so the party is intrinsically believing they just need to do the "hero" work BETTER than the rivals, rather than thinking they need to beat the rivals. We even had them working with the rivals for a brief bit of time, when they worked out a compromise so they both could get what they want. This will stick with a party in a good way, to make them constantly try to better themselves without letting themselves fall prey to the egotism of being the only heroes in a 50 mile radius. I highly, highly recommend everyone at least keep one in their back pocket to pull in when needed.
As I learned in management, the best way to motivate people to do their best was to give them some public competition with their peers. It lights a fire.
Thank you! Another cool video :) I like how this concept removes the notion that the PCs need to take care of everything by themselves. If they don't, their rivals might.
About to start running an Acquisitions Inc.. You gave me some great tips for other franchisees. Thanks man! Great content. Got yourself a new sub! Keep it up
I agree! There really needs to be more "rival" adventurer parties in DnD. Tbh, might just only be my personal experience, but it feels like this concept is underused. To the point were it almost feels like the pcs are the only adventuring party in the world if you know what I mean.
In one of my recent campaigns I played a Drow who refused to kill, opting for non-lethal damage if at all possible. It started out as a meme, but when my dm introduced a rival npc who served as a foil to myself, who went to the extreme for justice. Because of the brutality of this npc, the rest of the party began to come more accepting of his code of non-lethality. When my character was killed off because of his refusal to kill, it really struck something with the party, and they set out to try and resurrect their lost comrade, literally throwing the campaign away to save their friend. He was returned to life, but he opted to leave the party to sort out personal matters, but it’s always brought up how much the party missed such a character. A rival/mirror npc or group npcs definitely makes your characters more memorable not just to yourself, but to your party members
It evokes the old school style of play, where all the pc's were exploring the same dungeon, in small groups at whatever time the players could gather. They may not always be hostile to other pc's or parties, but they could certainly clash, or at least beat each other to certain areas where the good treasures are. Friendly rivalries can still be difficult ones.
One idea I had a while back that I think would work well with a rival party: the questgiver NPC holds some sort of tournament to find the adventurers who are most qualified for the challenge. The winners get a fancy reward and are given the new quest with the promise of more rewards at the end. So, this idea of the rival party makes me think that you could have them competing against the players in such a tournament. It could even be how the players meet the rival party
That Conan music at the end was not something I new that I NEEDED to hear. this video was really good, one of your best. the topic is good and your examples where great.
I gotta say that these videos are great tools to go back to. also helped me with my current character: a cool and collected Hobgoblin Field Medic. After being saved by his lover, who turned out to be a Silver Dragon, he went to a monastery to learn the Way if the Ascendant Dragon, but found his skills in the Way of Mercy instead. So rather than playing another Healer class, you've given me the idea of playing one of the Monk's who studied in the same monastery, but is flashy and boastful, seeking riches through reputation. Possibly even giving them the same background, but different variance to make them more akin than different... Though that would make me his antagonizer, as what fuels the rivalry is my character's refusal to be bothered.
This is perfect. I’ve been really thinking of how to get a rivalry group in my game, but couldn’t figure out a way to make the players engage without it being an evil rivalry to the death
This is also a concept that is a good fit for steampunk-style games. Rival groups competing to find the McGuffin first, to be the fastest, come up with the best gadgets, steal the spotlight, etc.
Early on in their adventures, my players taunted a bard and humiliated him in front of his current employer. This bard happens to be the son of a very powerful high priest in the countries central city. Around this same time the party came across a rival group of adventurers and stole a few bounties right out from under them. The son and the rival adventurers met and set off for the central city ahead of the party. While the party has been busy adventuring, the bard has been using his father's priests to scry on the party (they have uncovered a few of the scrying sensors) and feed the information of their exploits to the rival adventurers. The party is just about to arrive in the city in time for a large festival, where the main event will be a commemoration of the rival "heroes" who have taken credit for the accomplishments of the party.
I love using rivals and often like to use them on low-level parties with that big-brother type thing, but always at a price, either gold or having to do them a favor should the party care about honor. Its an excellent plot device to clean up loose ends and to gently nudge newer players towards RP. Its also quite fun to use them as a sort of "tutorial" for really new players.
My players’ rivals is essentially Team Rocket. Alas, as the game is dictated by the rolling of dice, Team Rocket actually managed to beat them in retrieving a relic. The PCs were understandably crestfallen. But that won’t be the last of it.
This was a great overview! I haven’t used a rival party before, but I think I want to give it a go in my next campaign. It sounds like there are lots of ways to use them for some cool story moments.
One campaign idea I've been toying with is a kind of "Knight Campaign". Where the party are all low station knights (the noble title; they can be whatever class they want, not just heavy armor melee fighters). And their goal is to amass Renown (a general kind of Renown, not necessarily the faction-specific Renown described in the DMG). In addition to gaining Renown for heroics - slaying monsters, defeating villains, retrieving lost relics, and saving people from certain doom - they also gain Renown for proving themselves in things like tournaments (jousts, musical competitions, magical duels, etc) and besting others single/group combat or contests. Since it's considered dishonorable to kill someone in such duels, it can act as a handy release valve for tensions with rivals. If a player really wants to stick it to a rival character, they're incentivized to challenge them to a duel or contest, rather than just attacking them with the intent to kill. They can earn Renown if they win (in addition to personal satisfaction), but can _lose_ Renown if they fail (and get a further bruised ego along with it). It's a built-in mechanism for encouraging competition, while giving just enough cost for failure to dissuade players from taking rash action.
My players met their rival party earlier, and did an arm wrestling contest to begin. They chose to not go defend neighbor town accosted by undead, and looked into the case of the missing animals (turned out they were being turned into demons, so still legit). But they'll find that the opposing team helped the other town and got the glory for it :D
You excite me more than any other you tuber out there in same subjects! Feel free to re-teach what others are doing. your WAY more entertaining. Great communicator and make so much sense.
All of your content is extremely good. You are going to be huge on TH-cam. I'm a long time DM, but I've never used a rival party. You have sparked my interest to do that. My only concern, is how often and how long would it take to become old and also start to annoy and frustrate the players. I feel like, although it can be fun here and there, a DM has to be careful with this.
Welcome aboard! :) You might also like some of my ideas in the *mixed skills and abilities* video- I put some in there I've never heard elsewhere before
I know storm barbarian could be fitting, but a Barbarian(zealot) and cleric combo seems more so based on how you described their approval by their God and such. And without it being a direct mirror of the gnome barbarian
How do you handle GMing an NPC party in combat? All those powers and spells become overwhelming for one person to run effectively, so do you have any tips on streamlining it?
I usually run stripped down versions of PC classes, they have AC, HP, attack bonus, damage, and maybe one or two signature features that I just keep in my head (e.g. Evasion, Improved Critical, etc)
You talked a lot about USING a rival party, but how would you BUILD a rival party? Would you create them with their own character sheets as if they were players, or build them like monsters with simplified stat blocks?
Something somewhat interesting the my hero academia did was making foil characters who are essentially the characters "ideal" version of themselves which leads to their downfall.
I'm gonna talk out of both sides of my mouth here, but I don't think a rival party qualifies as a strict deus ex. If you've introduced them before, then later the resolution they provide does come from the narrative, instead of out of the blue
![เจ็บที่ยังฮัก - ม่อน วรวิทย์ [ Official Mv ] จอนนี่มิวสิค](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/KALIGSRSjFs/mqdefault.jpg)
Most underrated D&D channel. Always sharing your shit man. Keep it up!
I really, *REALLY* appreciate that!!!! :)
The Deus Ex Machina TPK saving rival group can be also used to make one of the rivals sacrifice himself. This way the party could feel guilty for not taking the fatal blow they could have and the rival team can blame them for the death of their beloved party member. The players could decide whether they compensate somehow or accept their new adversaries.
this is awesome!
Another great use of rivals: if your players are taking ”too many rests”, i.e. Long resting at noon to get 2 spell slots back before the next encounter, send in the rival party to get the loot.
Knowing that someone else will take your stuff if you’re being too slow is a great way to add weight to the decision of rest or keep going!
Ooo! I like that! In fact, my party just rested in a dungeon... ;)
You could even have the rival party show up just as the PCs are about to make camp. Taunting the PCs about how while they're sitting around doing nothing, the rival party are going to clear out the dungeon.
You've inspired me for my next campaign.
Each of the first little adventures have a different party npc that helps with the job somehow and each mirrors a PC. Then the adventurers they helped band together off screen and become friendly competition. This way, there's urgency to completing jobs that isn't just "if you don't hurry, everyone dies".
Right?? If you start off at the highest stakes, there is no where to go!
The last campaign I ran, one of the PCs had a twin brother and they were competing for the affection of their asshole father. They constantly tried to one up each other to the point of eventually coming to grips and killing the NPC only to have him be revived by the BBEG. Rivals turning into bosses is definitely one of my favorite tropes.
Oh man! Did the NPC turn into one of the villains minions after that?!
@@ZipperonDisney Yup and the PC had made a pact with an angel to not kill his brother again while also having a contract from a devil saying he needed to kill his brother. In the end he managed to save him and kill the devil he made a contract with but that is a whole nother story.
One of my players is a BloodHunter, for his lvl3 Lycantrophy subclass I had him and his 1 other party member transported to the Shadowfell where they battled a shadow version of him, which eventually morphed into Lycan form.
Lair actions made it an epic arena fight and the players felt really good about earning their level-up by literally defeating a personal demon.
Outstanding example!
@@ZipperonDisney I especially appreciate this seeing as I'm a first time DM :)
Yes! I've used a rival group a couple years ago with my party who "took too long" to get moving on the main quest. It had a great effect, just by mentioning their names and suggesting they were targeting the same villain. My party actually skipped out of town a night early just to beat the rival competition to the next spot. Then they had a built-in challenge and reason to protect the macguffin, which meant they started thinking about ways of securing it BEFORE the threat presented itself. As you said, they are a competition, so the party is intrinsically believing they just need to do the "hero" work BETTER than the rivals, rather than thinking they need to beat the rivals. We even had them working with the rivals for a brief bit of time, when they worked out a compromise so they both could get what they want.
This will stick with a party in a good way, to make them constantly try to better themselves without letting themselves fall prey to the egotism of being the only heroes in a 50 mile radius. I highly, highly recommend everyone at least keep one in their back pocket to pull in when needed.
As I learned in management, the best way to motivate people to do their best was to give them some public competition with their peers. It lights a fire.
The desire to be better heroes is a really good angle - thanks for sharing! :)
@@NefariousKoel Personally that just puts me off and I just do other tasks if they're going to be assholes about it.
Thank you!
Another cool video :)
I like how this concept removes the notion that the PCs need to take care of everything by themselves. If they don't, their rivals might.
Thanks mate!!
Really looking forward to Galder's. I am particularly interested in the expanded combat options. Special emphasis on sundering.
Awesome! We got about 30 or so new game elements coming out soon!
About to start running an Acquisitions Inc..
You gave me some great tips for other franchisees. Thanks man! Great content. Got yourself a new sub! Keep it up
Glad to help! Thanks for subbing too!
Fantastic video, btw. I love this idea.
I did it once but the other party was between a rival and a villain party. Lots of fun
I agree! There really needs to be more "rival" adventurer parties in DnD. Tbh, might just only be my personal experience, but it feels like this concept is underused. To the point were it almost feels like the pcs are the only adventuring party in the world if you know what I mean.
Honestly, the Rival Party I'm using right now might be my favorite part of the campaign. So useful, so fun!
First time watcher, great content!
Awesome! I really like the consumable items video - it's quick and (IMHO) has tons of cool ideas: th-cam.com/video/YKLUBCwH6-o/w-d-xo.html
In one of my recent campaigns I played a Drow who refused to kill, opting for non-lethal damage if at all possible.
It started out as a meme, but when my dm introduced a rival npc who served as a foil to myself, who went to the extreme for justice.
Because of the brutality of this npc, the rest of the party began to come more accepting of his code of non-lethality.
When my character was killed off because of his refusal to kill, it really struck something with the party, and they set out to try and resurrect their lost comrade, literally throwing the campaign away to save their friend.
He was returned to life, but he opted to leave the party to sort out personal matters, but it’s always brought up how much the party missed such a character.
A rival/mirror npc or group npcs definitely makes your characters more memorable not just to yourself, but to your party members
That's a great story and really drives home a point I was making in the video - thanks for sharing!
Thank you for this one, I needed some help with rivals and couldn’t find this theme in my other dungeon tubers
That's what I'm here for! Most of my long form videos are on unique topics
It evokes the old school style of play, where all the pc's were exploring the same dungeon, in small groups at whatever time the players could gather. They may not always be hostile to other pc's or parties, but they could certainly clash, or at least beat each other to certain areas where the good treasures are. Friendly rivalries can still be difficult ones.
friendly rivals are often the most difficult :)
One idea I had a while back that I think would work well with a rival party: the questgiver NPC holds some sort of tournament to find the adventurers who are most qualified for the challenge. The winners get a fancy reward and are given the new quest with the promise of more rewards at the end.
So, this idea of the rival party makes me think that you could have them competing against the players in such a tournament. It could even be how the players meet the rival party
That Conan music at the end was not something I new that I NEEDED to hear. this video was really good, one of your best. the topic is good and your examples where great.
Thank you! This one is one of my favorites too!
Really like that you went to the effort of making artwork citations. :D
Some really good ideas from this video! Definitely going to try create a rival group now for my party
Awesome! Glad you liked it!
I gotta say that these videos are great tools to go back to.
also helped me with my current character: a cool and collected Hobgoblin Field Medic. After being saved by his lover, who turned out to be a Silver Dragon, he went to a monastery to learn the Way if the Ascendant Dragon, but found his skills in the Way of Mercy instead.
So rather than playing another Healer class, you've given me the idea of playing one of the Monk's who studied in the same monastery, but is flashy and boastful, seeking riches through reputation. Possibly even giving them the same background, but different variance to make them more akin than different... Though that would make me his antagonizer, as what fuels the rivalry is my character's refusal to be bothered.
This is perfect. I’ve been really thinking of how to get a rivalry group in my game, but couldn’t figure out a way to make the players engage without it being an evil rivalry to the death
Glad you liked it! This is one of those topics that doesn't get talked about much, but I think folks would really benefit from
This is also a concept that is a good fit for steampunk-style games. Rival groups competing to find the McGuffin first, to be the fastest, come up with the best gadgets, steal the spotlight, etc.
Good idea!!! Or also a swashbuckling campaign
Early on in their adventures, my players taunted a bard and humiliated him in front of his current employer. This bard happens to be the son of a very powerful high priest in the countries central city. Around this same time the party came across a rival group of adventurers and stole a few bounties right out from under them. The son and the rival adventurers met and set off for the central city ahead of the party. While the party has been busy adventuring, the bard has been using his father's priests to scry on the party (they have uncovered a few of the scrying sensors) and feed the information of their exploits to the rival adventurers. The party is just about to arrive in the city in time for a large festival, where the main event will be a commemoration of the rival "heroes" who have taken credit for the accomplishments of the party.
😂😂😂 PERFECT!
I love using rivals and often like to use them on low-level parties with that big-brother type thing, but always at a price, either gold or having to do them a favor should the party care about honor. Its an excellent plot device to clean up loose ends and to gently nudge newer players towards RP. Its also quite fun to use them as a sort of "tutorial" for really new players.
I didn't consider the tutorial or role-model aspect. Good points! Thanks for sharing!
Wow, thank you for the video! Your ideas really helped kick start me into working on a rival party - Time to binge the rest of your videos haha
@Benthe27thgamer how did that work out for you? enjoy it? :)
I've been watching your videos for a few months now, and I think yours may be the best ones I've found so far. Saludos desde Perú!
One of my favorites too. This, Likable NPCs, Super Session Zero and the Pacing Vids ❤️
Fantastic Video!!! Really sound advice!
Glad you liked it!!
I know this is a little late, but this video gave me such good ideas and made me smile the whole time I watched it
That makes me really happy! ❤️
I would say check the loading crew's TT Pokemon game they have a great rival team.
My players’ rivals is essentially Team Rocket. Alas, as the game is dictated by the rolling of dice, Team Rocket actually managed to beat them in retrieving a relic. The PCs were understandably crestfallen. But that won’t be the last of it.
The rival party sounds like an awesome idea
This was a great overview! I haven’t used a rival party before, but I think I want to give it a go in my next campaign. It sounds like there are lots of ways to use them for some cool story moments.
Glad you liked it! Feel free to reach out if you want to talk about YouTubing!
@@ZipperonDisney Thank you! I really appreciate that. I still feel like I"m stumbling around in the dark a bit 😅
What about instead of two adventurers fighting over someone, they fight over who gets to pet the dog first?
Then the villain swoops in and kills it! th-cam.com/video/__wJo6l_P3M/w-d-xo.html
Wow, I was just planning on making a rival party for my group. Thank you so much for the great ideas!
Awesome! Let me know how it goes!
I... misjudged how horny my players are...
One campaign idea I've been toying with is a kind of "Knight Campaign". Where the party are all low station knights (the noble title; they can be whatever class they want, not just heavy armor melee fighters). And their goal is to amass Renown (a general kind of Renown, not necessarily the faction-specific Renown described in the DMG). In addition to gaining Renown for heroics - slaying monsters, defeating villains, retrieving lost relics, and saving people from certain doom - they also gain Renown for proving themselves in things like tournaments (jousts, musical competitions, magical duels, etc) and besting others single/group combat or contests.
Since it's considered dishonorable to kill someone in such duels, it can act as a handy release valve for tensions with rivals. If a player really wants to stick it to a rival character, they're incentivized to challenge them to a duel or contest, rather than just attacking them with the intent to kill. They can earn Renown if they win (in addition to personal satisfaction), but can _lose_ Renown if they fail (and get a further bruised ego along with it). It's a built-in mechanism for encouraging competition, while giving just enough cost for failure to dissuade players from taking rash action.
That idea sounds like it would square nicely with what I suggest in the 'What If Alignment Mattered' video! th-cam.com/video/KqrlB1aGrUc/w-d-xo.html
Awesome practical advice. I don't play DnD but this is a great bit of advice for any RPG...
Glad you like it! This is one of my favorite videos 😁
@@ZipperonDisney you got a new subscriber today!
This was a great vid. Thanks for the content man.
My players met their rival party earlier, and did an arm wrestling contest to begin.
They chose to not go defend neighbor town accosted by undead, and looked into the case of the missing animals (turned out they were being turned into demons, so still legit).
But they'll find that the opposing team helped the other town and got the glory for it :D
You excite me more than any other you tuber out there in same subjects! Feel free to re-teach what others are doing. your WAY more entertaining. Great communicator and make so much sense.
Thanks!! I try to make video about subjects nobody is talking about - one of the things that I think makes my channel unique :)
Excellent video, as always!
Thank you!
Great video! I really love this idea and plan to use it in my current game. I'll let you know how it goes.
Thanks a bunch! Please do - I love hearing stories from home games! :)
Your voice/narration is very easy to listen to. Some nice ideas.
Glad you dig it Zig!
This helps a ton. Thank you my tye dye friend
Happy to help! Thanks for being a fan of the channel :)
All of your content is extremely good. You are going to be huge on TH-cam. I'm a long time DM, but I've never used a rival party. You have sparked my interest to do that. My only concern, is how often and how long would it take to become old and also start to annoy and frustrate the players. I feel like, although it can be fun here and there, a DM has to be careful with this.
Thanks for the compliment!
I think like most things, you have to be discerning! I think I'm at 3 run-ins over 20 sessions
Just earned yourself a subscriber for this great idea!
Welcome aboard! :) You might also like some of my ideas in the *mixed skills and abilities* video- I put some in there I've never heard elsewhere before
I know storm barbarian could be fitting, but a Barbarian(zealot) and cleric combo seems more so based on how you described their approval by their God and such. And without it being a direct mirror of the gnome barbarian
@broke_AF_Games That's a good point!! I think I *will* do that instead!!
Zipperon Disney it's like shake and bake....'cause I helped
Dude your videos are so good.
Glad you like them!
The trash talking tavern fans is a fantastic idea Zip! Reminds me of sports fans.
Yeah! That's exactly what I had in mind. Imagine if there were memorabilia on the walls too, like the helmet worn when they slew the village hag
@@ZipperonDisney I'm stealing this for my games. It sounds fun already! LOL
How do you handle GMing an NPC party in combat? All those powers and spells become overwhelming for one person to run effectively, so do you have any tips on streamlining it?
I usually run stripped down versions of PC classes, they have AC, HP, attack bonus, damage, and maybe one or two signature features that I just keep in my head (e.g. Evasion, Improved Critical, etc)
@@ZipperonDisney Yeah, that's pretty much what I've moved toward too. Spellcasters just have a few spells listed that I want to use, for example.
Great video. Great ideas
You talked a lot about USING a rival party, but how would you BUILD a rival party? Would you create them with their own character sheets as if they were players, or build them like monsters with simplified stat blocks?
I think I actually used the pregens WotC made, just because they were on hand. Or I would have used NPC stat blocks like in Volos
Im making a rival party right now. Ive made one already who origanilly is a civillian who the party has stolen from. It wil be kinda a vigilante party
I'd be cool to make the High Level Play video as well
It's on the to-do list :) have you checked out the Epic Destiny or High Level oneshot vids? They might sustain ya'
A toll troll. I'm dying :')
Check it out here: th-cam.com/video/nTm7Vuu2d3U/w-d-xo.html
Good ideas
Nice video
TY!!
Good video!
Thanks for the visit! Rivals are SUPER fun to have
@@ZipperonDisney Gave me plenty of ideas mind if I forward this to my former DM?
Something somewhat interesting the my hero academia did was making foil characters who are essentially the characters "ideal" version of themselves which leads to their downfall.
What's hero academia?
@@ZipperonDisney anime
Hmmm... I'm pretty firmly against a deus ex, but I could see a rival party trying to do something like bribe the Rogue to join them.
I'm gonna talk out of both sides of my mouth here, but I don't think a rival party qualifies as a strict deus ex. If you've introduced them before, then later the resolution they provide does come from the narrative, instead of out of the blue
Commenting for the algorithm
it approves :)
@@ZipperonDisney Awww... good little algorithm... ,>
Great content. But I couldn’t hear you. Sound is too quiet I had to crank my speakers. Second problem, the music is louder than your voice!