Two people speaking from the heart about what they believe. A host giving them time and space to air their views, and a BBC providing a platform for all of the above. This is the world we have lost.
And we are still fighting for our rights against the elite that Jimmy Reid was fighting back in the 1970's. We are still being screwed over by the Tories!
Yeah, he was your pimp. Brainwashing you into hating the people that gave you the chance to earn a living and feed your families so he could skim off your hard earned wages and not have to work hard himself Total predator of the highest order. All trade union parasites should have gone to prison.
There are some comments below regarding a poem that Jimmy read on the show. It wasn't actually during the show, it was during the soundcheck and is a story worth telling. I saw this account on a TV show years ago and have never forgotten it. Kenneth prided himself on his powers of debate and in the weeks preceding this interview had made disparaging remarks regarding the militant ship workers and Trades Unions in general and was relishing the thought of wiping the floor with this working class oik on national TV. What he didn't realise was that Jimmy had gained a formidable (self-taught) intellect of his own through years of hard work studying at night-school. Before the show they asked each man to test their microphones and Kenneth reeled of a few lines of poetry, turned to Jimmy and said (condescendingly) "I bet you don't know who wrote that?" "It was Keats" replied Jimmy, quick as a flash. Then Jimmy tested his mike and he too recited a few lines of eloquent poetry. He turned to Kenneth and asked him the same question and Williams was forced to admit he didn't know. That's when Jimmy played his ace by replying "I did!" Apparently, it totally deflated Williams who had the wind well and truly taken out of his sails, which is why he comes across a bit agitated and antsy in this interview. Jimmy Reid was a true working class hero when being working class meant something. My late father, a lifelong socialist Glaswegian worshipped him. I can see why.
That explains so much. KW's whole demeanour and body language in the first few minutes is defensive and slightly petulant, so unlike his normal expansive self. I love KW, incidentally, but this is so fascinating to watch.
A remarkable sorry. I love Kenneth Williams but I enjoyed it all the same. Thank you for sharing. It's comments like yours that make the much derided TH-cam comments sections worth reading.
Unions are nothing to do with representing the working class......the Labour Party are an elitist London-centric clique who totally despise the working class. Jimmy Reid may have been a good guy...as were many in the unions but their overall management were no more than part of the system.
Our IQ's have faded so badly since then. Where on Earth would you find a debate like this on our screens now?.. Fantastic upload though - thanks so much for sharing. 👍👍👍
@@nettils5555 All great points, thanks for commenting. I often think of an episode of Alan Partridge from the 90s when he's pitching programme ideas to the BBC commissioning editor...apparently ludicrous concepts like 'Lady Shapes', 'Inner City Sumo' and 'Cooking in Prison' and a few others so inconceivable that the studio audience are in hysterics. A generation later, they actually sound quite sensible based on current programming, and probably have all been done one way or the other.
It’s really changed. There is no industrial power now, and union power has correspondingly weakened. You never see real issues discussed now. It’s all about diversity and such like. The women standing up and talking about the real consequences for her children. Great!
Our attention spans are all over the place with hundreds of crap TV channels, 24/7 rolling news, social media etc etc. I do miss the days when we had 3 or 4 TV channels and meaty topics like this would attract large audiences which became water cooler moments at work on Monday. Rose tinted specs perhaps a little but I do miss those big moments.
This was unusual in the 70s and didn't happen again as a boss at the BBC advised the Parkinson producers that this kind of change within the Parkinson format should not happen again.
@@Omnicient. It kind of did happen again; BBC's Question Time first aired in the late 70s based on an invited audience with pre-prepared questions. Who would have thought the Parkinson show trail blazed the format?!!!
Wouldn't be happening! The Labour are Marxists, the Torues are now control freaks, the LibDems haven't got a clue, the Greens want the UK to stop "climate change" by 100% when UK only give less than 1% of this supposed crap, and the rest just want to get more expenses for doing nothing!
I'm shocked by how young Maggie Smith looks, how camp KW sounds, how erudite Jimmy Reid was, and how high the overall level of discussion was for a late night mainstream TV talk show. Great days in retrospect, we shall not see their like again.
I met Jimmy Reid at a reception in Glasgow a number of years ago. I talked to him for about 20 minutes. During that time he asked me all sorts of questions about myself. I tried repeatedly to turn the conversation round to talk about home but with limited success. I relayed this conversation to others who knew Jimmy well and they all said that it was typical of Jimmy. He had an endless interest in other people; he wanted to know what made them tick. Although I didn't get him to talk much about himself (we had both worked for the same newspaper company - but not at the same time - so I knew something of him anyway) I found home a hugely engaging, intelligent and likeable individual.
Absolutely fascinating, transfixing. I find it so odd that there’s parts where Kenneth is being deadly serious, but the audience laugh, because they think everything he did was for a laugh, when it was merely his manner. What a wonderful man Jimmy Reid was.
Williams was totally shown up by Jimmy Reid. He had no empathy for people who had come from backgrounds like his, and was the classic example of the "I've done alright for myself and sod the rest of you" attitude that Thatcher embodied.
@@kendalbintnot really he hated Tories he's Welsh we are literally the opposite of Tories even treacherous scum. It's more like Jimmy is arguing for a better future and Kenneth is saying what is now They're basically having two separate conversations that's why they disagree if they were having the same conversation they would agree. Jimmy is rightly looking ahead where is Kenneth is limited ironically by his lack of imagination probably too much drink where is Jimmy doesn't seem to sort to need a drink to perform 🤔. You cannot boil celts down to politics that is in English priority we transcend Germanic b******* we speak as humans not as political animals.
What a wonderful, dignified contributor Mrs Pearce is. The overall standard of debate is high, not necessarily intellectually, but the honesty, the respect, the openness - seem a lot higher than the closed-minded soundbites you get from TV audiences in 2021.
These were the days people were able to talk in complete sentences and to listen to the other persons view. Now it is all sound bites and interruptions.
According to Kenneth Williams' diaries, the BBC saw to it that this was never to happen again, with a 'keep it light' attitude prevailing from then onwards. The discussion on this show feels very different, because it genuinely sought to involve everyone, rather than Question Time's facade of doing so.
@@herbertdaly5190 Or perhaps they knew all too well, because had this sort discussion involving everyone been a regular occurrence on national television, rather than just those who the BBC deem to worthy of airing their views, it would have produced a vastly different outcome.
Respectful gentlemanly debate. Wonderful to watch. These kinds of honest, earthy current event discussions no longer exist sadly. As someone else said, debate these days is completely stifled.
I think not only stifled but also hijacked by people who can't have a disagreement without generalising and name-calling. I think that 24 hour news channels are not always a force for good in this way, although they like to blame social media.
The best, one of the very best Parkinson interviews. The likes of Ross, Norten and Corden can never hold a candle to Parkinson. I'm not familiar with Jimmy Reid but makes an excellent contribution. All 3 men are sadly no longer with us. There will never be another like Michael Parkinson A true legend who has interviewed many legends, and a gentleman. This might have become the benchmark for Question Time.
I have been searching for this for ten years and was beginning to think that it was just a figment of my imagination. Thankyou so much for uploading, it hasn't disappointed in its thought provoking content.
Bloody hell we haven’t moved on have we? Jimmy Reid is so passionate to change the lives of people who are in any society, exploited. This kind of intelligent discussion would not be allowed in 2022 because it is too raw.
Thanks for commenting. I agree, it remains a fascinating debate, even if some of the attitudes are perhaps a little cringeworthy by today's standards - the references to 'brain damage' for instance, and Parky correcting an audience member and calling her 'luv'; but you certainly can't doubt the sincerity, and you're right about the relevance now. Sadly.
Imagine if our politicians could have a debate like this , with this level of discourse and mutual respect despite opposing views... tip of the hat to both these gentlemen
I find Kenneth Williams endearing, admirable, intelligent and erudite; but there are some terrifying and brutal gaps in the heart of his worldview. However - appreciate his willingness to listen and find points of agreement.
A working class hero telling others to go on strike whilst still pulling his Trades Union salary? Aye the man was a Saint, right up there with that other self serving charlatan Scargill
@@eatmywordsNot really, considering that he was strongly advocating for the right of choice for individuals. For example, he expressed his lack of resentment for those more successful and richer than him. Kenneth didn't get to where he got to via charitable handouts, he got there through resilience and his ability to offer something to people that they wanted.
How thrilling to hear Jimmy Reid speak so coherently and passionately in defence of working class people! The Labour party meant something then. My Canadian father was an MP and MLA for the New Democrats, a democratic socialist party. These parties are watered down considerably now, but I was proud to be part of their philosophy in those days.
I remember this at the time. Anyone who thinks this wouldn't happen now should be aware that the idea that a self-confessed communist trade unionist getting this kind of prime-time to get a genuine hearing on a show watched by millions was unusual then. We already remember the old BBC Parky shows as old Hollywood celebs and Billy Connolly but this might be his finest hour.
The quality of the expressions of opinion - even from the audience - is massively above anything we see today. People on today's equivalent programmes would be shouting over other, and yet mostly totally incapable of voicing reasoned argument to back up their point of view. How sad that is.
That's the influence of America for you; we have been culturally and linguistically colonised by the USA, and you can see it in our degraded dress sense, slobby attitudes to food and speech, expanding waistlines, increasing use of emotion over reason, and 'winning' by shouting over the other person in an argument.
Oh, for the days when a TV audience for a prime time chat show could be a genuine public political forum. Even public political party meetings are a thing of the past.
I agree. I like the fact that it was possible to have a serious and robust disagreement, over a sustained period, without things degenerating into juvenile name calling. Social media seems to get much of the blame for everything that is wrong with modern debate, but I think so called 'opinion' commentators in the big media organisations have contributed in the race to the bottom.
Thank you for uploading this programme, wonderful! Excellent dialectic. Kenneth Williams's flat was replaced by office development. "Society should be run on the basis of social need and not private greed."
There is absolutely nothing like this happening on British television nowadays. Everything now is ‘dumbed down’, puerile reality shows, most present tv encompasses the lowest common denominator, an insult to everyone’s intellect. All three here are putting their views/opinions so credibly that is impressive. One audience commentator suggested our society could regress, I think that has come to pass. Our society now is almost entirely centred on greed.
So many echos for today in what Jimmy Reid said during that debate 50 years ago. Tony Benn often said that every generation must refight the same battles; it’s so true.
@@GeorgeFairbrother i like to hope, maybe, in some obscure corner... a comment section on a video even? lol i know i've chatted a bit with people here on TH-cam.. stimulated by good content like this.. thanks again 🙂
Well, I was always taught by my mum when I said we couldn’t afford to stay at the Ritz - “well darling, we can always go to tea”. And we did! Many times. 😂. When I started work, I used to take her for lunch. Dinner was too expensive 😂
good point, and a nice thing to do, too...My mum, oftentimes, used to visit 'The Europa' Belfast's most posh hotel, and the most bombed hotel in the world...But, more interestingly, it was opposite the best pub in Belfast. The Crown Bar....
I agree with Jimmy about putting certain people on boats abroad and not noticing that they have gone. Numerous quango members, charity bosses, civil servants, race baiting careerists..
Parkinson's point here was a good one: that regardless, or perhaps because of Kenneth William's experience of being born to a blue collar background, his views paradoxically support and endorse privileged, middle and upper middle class people. Other British public intellectuals over the years have suggested much the same. For example, the assertion that Margaret Thatcher's success turned on the surprising support of a blue collar electorate, whilst her project was to economically and politically support the high end of town.
I always find it quite fascinating that KW close to the end also starts talking about things like housing and education as a fundamental right. It's all fascinating stuff.
For those who might be interested in how the relationship between Kenneth Williams and Michael Parkinson unfolded in the ensuing years, they had a very enjoyable, warm and friendly encounter in July of 1987, when Parky was hosting the BBC's Desert Island Discs programme and KW was his guest. Link here to the BBC website to listen or download; www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p009mljj
The then controller of BBC One, Paul Fox hated this edition of Parkinson, especially the audience being able to ask questions and the confrontational nature, that he told Parkinson never ever again to go into this area of politics, otherwise his show would be cancelled.
I've found this today on a day when nurses are striking for a large pay rise, interesting points made here. Always loved Kenneth, got upset when he passed away.
It's fascinating to watch Kenneth Williams change when he hears an audience response. Much as he would like to be a philosopher, he reveals himself to be a true entertainer.
Agreed. Even if you don't subscribe to all of his political views, his passion and desire to try and improve people's lives, or perhaps empower them to improve their own regardless of circumstance, is something to be respected and admired enormously. I'm glad you enjoyed the video.
The phrase is "bowled over", not "balled over". It's a cricket term alluding to all of the bales bing knocked of the wicket by the ball. Where reid faield was in his outlook being so narrow. he failed to see the need of the country as a whole and would have happpily chosen communism to beter the lot of his class, which would have seen the entire country descend into shabby chaos.
Jimmy Reid was extremely well known in Scotland. I'm 61 and I remember him from a very young age. I used to watch Parkinson with my parents in the 70s , I've never seen this one before. It's a gem.
Strange how it's the same issues that we have today ,the ordinary people striking for a reasonable living standard and wage ....as Jimmy said it belongs to all of us🙏
I don’t think Kenneth Williams opposed the principles that the unions purported to stand for, he simply opposed the means by which they went about trying to achieve it as being, in his mind, self defeating and hypocritical. I think he felt that the prevalence of mind in unions tended to be, “one for all and all for one, because it’s good for me” as opposed to “one for all and all for one because it’s good for us”. I’m afraid I think I tend to agree with him, considering what little use the Union was to my dad when he needed their help with an employer dispute, after he’d given all his time and money to them for years.
Parkinson described this as Williams' worst performance, and I'm inclined to agree. He seems well-informed, but there's a lot of backtracking and logical subtefuge in his arguments (the way he responds to the audience member talking about her disabled son for example) which gives the impression he's thrashing around for the upper hand. Reid on the other hand comes across extremely well, but it's interesting how hostile the audience are to some of his arguments. Parkinson's objection to him quoting statistics is particularly fascinating. I presume this was done to level the playing field between the guests and provide balance, but it does result in the discussion becoming more subjective than it needs to be. But, that said, great piece of television - thanks for uploading.
Very good points. I wonder if Kenneth Williams came to this debate overconfident, seriously underestimating Jimmy Reid, and was actually quite rattled when Jimmy proved to be very articulate, polite and well read, and could match him, not only in politics and social issues, but also arts and poetry. The issue of hostility is an interesting one, I would imagine that feelings on both sides were running high due to ongoing and disruptive industrial actions, wage freezes etc. Thanks for your comments.
@@GeorgeFairbrother I have always wondered is Kenneth's centre right politics was also the reason for his frosty working relationship with some of his Carry On co-stars such as Sid James. Both Sid and Kenneth disliked each other. I wonder if it was down to politics too?
@@johnking5174 It's a fascinating point to consider. I can't imagine Kenneth Williams being hesitant to voice an opinion under any circumstances, and, unlike Sid, he wasn't always particularly polite. Yet he did have a very warm and close relationship with Barbara Windsor, and, apparently, also got on well with Babs' husband at that time, Ronnie Knight. I think a mutual respect evolved between him and Parky as well, as time went on, despite their political differences. I'm interested in the point you raise about Kenneth Williams' relationship with Sid, who by all accounts was enormously well-liked and got on with just about everyone. Worth looking into a little deeper. Thanks for your thoughts.
@@GeorgeFairbrother Thanks for that. I do know that in some ways Sid was conservative but not in politics. Sid's son Steven said his father used to like the children being respectful to their mother. When they were out for a walk, the son and Sid would walk on the edge of the footpath with the mother always walking in the inner part, showing respect. Sid hated swearing, and also detested people being rude, which Kenneth used to excel at, farting all the time, especially when the cast had lunch. Sid found that disgusting. However I do know from his son Steven that Sid James was liberal on sexuality. He was not homophobic, which I think Kenneth felt he was. That was wrong. Because John Inman from Are You Being Served said he and Sid got on so well especially during panto season. He told the story of when Are You Being Served had become a huge hit by 1975 and he was in panto with Sid. Sid came to John's dressing room on the night before they broke up for Christmas with a huge bottle of champagne, and toasted John's success. "Isn't it great" was the words Sid used, and John was so overcome we with happiness. Sid was wonderful to him. Now if Sid was homophobic, do you think he would have done that for John Inman, who was 100 times more camp than Kenneth. What do you think?
@@johnking5174 That's a great story about John Inman, who I think is one of the most likeable performers of that era. I tend to agree, if Sid disliked KW it was to do with his manners and general behaviour, which I think even fans agree wasn't always ideal. Time to go back and re-read some old bios I think. The dynamic between all those personalities is fascinating.
I was never a “ union man” as the bias against them was so misrepresented at the time! Both Jimmy and Ken made good points,! I think history has proven both ?
I agree, it's a fascinating discussion whether you agree with the points made or not. You can see how life experience shaped their views, particularly in Jimmy Reid's case. The thing I find fascinating about KW, for all his 'dig in your own bit of garden' and 'know your limitations' rhetoric, by the end, if I remember correctly, he's talking about housing as a fundamental human right. There certainly seemed to be an authenticity and sincerity that is not always evident today.
jesus h christ!!!! I was a 16 year old in my second year in the army so never got to see this, but that was a great watch, and nothing whatsoever has changed in the 50 years since then, 2022 and we're going through the exact same things and guess what the the tories have been in government for 35 years of that time
The then controller of BBC One, Paul Fox hated this edition of Parkinson, especially the audience being able to ask questions and the confrontational nature, that he told Parkinson never ever again to go into this area of politics, otherwise his show would be cancelled.
Great to see Jimmy Reid effortlessly puncture Kenneth Williams’s pomposity. What a fierce intelligence Reid had. A hero of mine in these spineless, back-stabbing times.
bluesboy54321 What I didn’t say was that Kenneth Williams is another hero of mine, although obviously not due to his political views. But his Diaries are well worth reading - and re-reading - as I often do.
Absolutely fascinating, Parky bringing two entirely, in some ways contrasting, personalities together with an interactive audience. No fawning or graces. Each with their own distinct view and description of the same world. As a mere youth, I must’ve been tucked up bed when this one aired otherwise I’d have some recall of its expansive content.
The last generation could handle themselves in a debate better than this generation. Amazing to think this was mainstream prime time tv. Now what do we get? Mind numbing drivel like Britain’s Got Talent. When people like Jimmy Reid, Parkinson and Kenneth Williams were kicking about, the fact Britain had talent was never in doubt. We are receding.
Michael Parkinson rather misrepresented this later in his life. In a documentary about Kenneth, he gave the impression that Kenneth Williams spent the entire episode sulking and withdrawn, so when I viewed this for the first time myself, it came as a surprise to see that, whilst possibly anxious and not quite his usual uninhibited self, he conducted himself admirably and more than held his own. This particular show is remarkable, in that it is highly unusual for what was an entertainment programme, to break off and address these serious issues. According to Kenneth's diaries, the BBC sought to avoid this sort of thing from then onwards.
@@ppuh6tfrz646 Yes, he said so later, but I'm not convinced. I think perhaps it may have been a case of him having subsequently read the snarky remarks Kenneth wrote about him in his diaries, and him not wanting to lose face, so he retrospectively claimed that the feeling was mutual. I think he did like Kenneth, and was completely unaware that Kenneth disliked him until he picked up his diaries. Many people who spent time with Ken had a similar experience. Ken though did warm to Parkinson later on, as his diaries also record. I'm pretty sure that Parkinson wouldn't have had someone on so often as a guest, had he loathed them as much as he later claimed.
I think both Jimmy and Kenneth cared about other people but had different ways of showing it. Very interesting discussion. You'd never see anything like this now
I agree, their sincerity is evident whether you agree or not with their political views. I think KW might have underestimated Jimmy Reid and found himself a little out of his depth at times, but it was a great discussion.
@@GeorgeFairbrother And there was a mutual respect under the disagreements they had for each other. This type of discussion would never happen today on TV. It is the era of the shouty attention seeker, who can make the most noise, the sensationalist, the controversalist and the attention seeker. Noise counts over substance
Kenneth was so much deeper than was understood, retrospective commentaries have made him out to be tragic even by his closest colleagues, but he was brave but civil,--- a collossus of any era,
@@WintersWar I think the feminine side in him was very strong. That's obvious in his campy mannerisms you might say, but he was razor sharp in terms of wit and verbalizing his thoughts as he was thinking them, almost split second delivery. Most men cannot verbalize like that, as we see when women wipe the floor with them in heated discussions.
RIP PARKY. Michael Parkinson has passed away, August 16th, 2023, aged 88. 🙏
Rip Michael parkinson. I have to say this is my favourite interview with the legend Jimmy Reid.
Two people speaking from the heart about what they believe. A host giving them time and space to air their views, and a BBC providing a platform for all of the above. This is the world we have lost.
Only lost to mainstream media (BBC, ITV). It can still be found abundantly if you know which channels to watch
@@GEOFF0906Would you care to say which channels those are?
@@martydav9475 yeah
me too lol 🙂😉
@@martydav9475 JRE is the best example to me
Entirely yes!
The days of respectful debate, and treating the audience as intelligent - it's like a parallel universe.
Jimmy Reid RIP, what a class human being intelligent and hilarious, never once felt anything but at ease in his company selfless.
And we are still fighting for our rights against the elite that Jimmy Reid was fighting back in the 1970's. We are still being screwed over by the Tories!
Absolutely right.
Jimmy Reid a real working class hero who never sold out.
Jimmy never supported the Miners in 1984.
big surprise
I stood in Govan shipyard as a young man listening to Jimmy put fire in our bellies and understanding in our heads.
Yeah, he was your pimp. Brainwashing you into hating the people that gave you the chance to earn a living and feed your families so he could skim off your hard earned wages and not have to work hard himself
Total predator of the highest order. All trade union parasites should have gone to prison.
It's mad how what Jimmy Reid was talking about with health workers is still happening.
Well never get them days back now we've got brain dead reality stars.
And thousands of vloggers here on yt who do and say nothing but give me your moneyyyyy
There are some comments below regarding a poem that Jimmy read on the show. It wasn't actually during the show, it was during the soundcheck and is a story worth telling. I saw this account on a TV show years ago and have never forgotten it.
Kenneth prided himself on his powers of debate and in the weeks preceding this interview had made disparaging remarks regarding the militant ship workers and Trades Unions in general and was relishing the thought of wiping the floor with this working class oik on national TV. What he didn't realise was that Jimmy had gained a formidable (self-taught) intellect of his own through years of hard work studying at night-school. Before the show they asked each man to test their microphones and Kenneth reeled of a few lines of poetry, turned to Jimmy and said (condescendingly) "I bet you don't know who wrote that?" "It was Keats" replied Jimmy, quick as a flash. Then Jimmy tested his mike and he too recited a few lines of eloquent poetry. He turned to Kenneth and asked him the same question and Williams was forced to admit he didn't know. That's when Jimmy played his ace by replying "I did!" Apparently, it totally deflated Williams who had the wind well and truly taken out of his sails, which is why he comes across a bit agitated and antsy in this interview.
Jimmy Reid was a true working class hero when being working class meant something. My late father, a lifelong socialist Glaswegian worshipped him. I can see why.
Wow. Truly epic battle.
That explains so much. KW's whole demeanour and body language in the first few minutes is defensive and slightly petulant, so unlike his normal expansive self. I love KW, incidentally, but this is so fascinating to watch.
A remarkable sorry. I love Kenneth Williams but I enjoyed it all the same. Thank you for sharing. It's comments like yours that make the much derided TH-cam comments sections worth reading.
Unions are nothing to do with representing the working class......the Labour Party are an elitist London-centric clique who totally despise the working class. Jimmy Reid may have been a good guy...as were many in the unions but their overall management were no more than part of the system.
@@allybally0021 You can't compare now to then - I agree with your comments on the current 'Labour' party.
Our IQ's have faded so badly since then. Where on Earth would you find a debate like this on our screens now?..
Fantastic upload though - thanks so much for sharing. 👍👍👍
Very glad you enjoyed it, I love it as well. Thanks for commenting.
@@nettils5555 All great points, thanks for commenting. I often think of an episode of Alan Partridge from the 90s when he's pitching programme ideas to the BBC commissioning editor...apparently ludicrous concepts like 'Lady Shapes', 'Inner City Sumo' and 'Cooking in Prison' and a few others so inconceivable that the studio audience are in hysterics. A generation later, they actually sound quite sensible based on current programming, and probably have all been done one way or the other.
I'd say that IQs haven't faded... there's just been a dumbing down in the media and politics...
The IQs are still there but not amplified in the media.
The working and middle class have definitely been dumbed down and it will get worse. Probably deliberately so that they will be easier to manipulate.
Fast forward to 2020/21.
You have Graham Norton and a couple of giant egos...
The '70's really was a golden age on so many levels.
It’s really changed. There is no industrial power now, and union power has correspondingly weakened.
You never see real issues discussed now. It’s all about diversity and such like. The women standing up and talking about the real consequences for her children. Great!
@@richardjames1431 Agreed
Our attention spans are all over the place with hundreds of crap TV channels, 24/7 rolling news, social media etc etc. I do miss the days when we had 3 or 4 TV channels and meaty topics like this would attract large audiences which became water cooler moments at work on Monday. Rose tinted specs perhaps a little but I do miss those big moments.
This was unusual in the 70s and didn't happen again as a boss at the BBC advised the Parkinson producers that this kind of change within the Parkinson format should not happen again.
@@Omnicient. It kind of did happen again; BBC's Question Time first aired in the late 70s based on an invited audience with pre-prepared questions. Who would have thought the Parkinson show trail blazed the format?!!!
Imagine a discussion on that level on tv in 2020 😞
You're right. Not quite the same now, is it.
I like how at the end Kenneth Williams softened and said that everyone is due equal opportunity to housing, education, etc
Wouldn't be happening! The Labour are Marxists, the Torues are now control freaks, the LibDems haven't got a clue, the Greens want the UK to stop "climate change" by 100% when UK only give less than 1% of this supposed crap, and the rest just want to get more expenses for doing nothing!
Different time. Social media dumbing down society. I strangely remember this at the time.
@@ruthcollins5140 if you labour are marxists today, they were certainly marxists then
I'm shocked by how young Maggie Smith looks, how camp KW sounds, how erudite Jimmy Reid was, and how high the overall level of discussion was for a late night mainstream TV talk show. Great days in retrospect, we shall not see their like again.
All excellent points!
I don't accept that we can't have quality programming like this again
I didn't realise how gorgeous she'd been when she was younger.
Exactly 50 years on, and Reid & Williams long departed, but how relevant this debate is in today's current Britain.
I met Jimmy Reid at a reception in Glasgow a number of years ago. I talked to him for about 20 minutes. During that time he asked me all sorts of questions about myself. I tried repeatedly to turn the conversation round to talk about home but with limited success. I relayed this conversation to others who knew Jimmy well and they all said that it was typical of Jimmy. He had an endless interest in other people; he wanted to know what made them tick. Although I didn't get him to talk much about himself (we had both worked for the same newspaper company - but not at the same time - so I knew something of him anyway) I found home a hugely engaging, intelligent and likeable individual.
'Home' should be 'him'.
Thanks so much for sharing that personal insight. Always nice to see the human side.
Amazing that the debate is still relevant now in 2024 as it was in the 1970s. Such a great shame
Absolutely fascinating, transfixing. I find it so odd that there’s parts where Kenneth is being deadly serious, but the audience laugh, because they think everything he did was for a laugh, when it was merely his manner.
What a wonderful man Jimmy Reid was.
Why do you say that about Jimmy Reid. Was he more ‘wonderful’ than Kenneth, Nick Heath?
@@janeelstree4984 Williams doesn't come across particularly well in this interview, imo. Perhaps Nick feels the same.
Williams was totally shown up by Jimmy Reid. He had no empathy for people who had come from backgrounds like his, and was the classic example of the "I've done alright for myself and sod the rest of you" attitude that Thatcher embodied.
@@bessiehillum6498 Utter bollocks.
@@kendalbintnot really he hated Tories he's Welsh we are literally the opposite of Tories even treacherous scum. It's more like Jimmy is arguing for a better future and Kenneth is saying what is now They're basically having two separate conversations that's why they disagree if they were having the same conversation they would agree. Jimmy is rightly looking ahead where is Kenneth is limited ironically by his lack of imagination probably too much drink where is Jimmy doesn't seem to sort to need a drink to perform 🤔. You cannot boil celts down to politics that is in English priority we transcend Germanic b******* we speak as humans not as political animals.
What a wonderful, dignified contributor Mrs Pearce is. The overall standard of debate is high, not necessarily intellectually, but the honesty, the respect, the openness - seem a lot higher than the closed-minded soundbites you get from TV audiences in 2021.
These were the days people were able to talk in complete sentences and to listen to the other persons view. Now it is all sound bites and interruptions.
I wonder what happened to Mrs Pearce and her sons
The head teachers concerns about comprehensive education came true.
i got to Cambridge and did Engineering. Mum is still going strong - ten years later she was a guest on Wogan.
Google Diane Simpson public speaker. A few years after this she did her own TV show.
Thank you so much for uploading this gem from sadly a bygone era. Most edifying.
You are very welcome and I'm so glad you enjoyed it
Public Service Broadcasting - Fascinating to watch... imagine getting that level of intelligent interaction and debate on mainstream TV in 2021
it would be impossible as we lack Quality individuals
According to Kenneth Williams' diaries, the BBC saw to it that this was never to happen again, with a 'keep it light' attitude prevailing from then onwards.
The discussion on this show feels very different, because it genuinely sought to involve everyone, rather than Question Time's facade of doing so.
@@elvisleeboy A real pity. Clearly they didn't understand the quality of what the had there.
@@herbertdaly5190 Or perhaps they knew all too well, because had this sort discussion involving everyone been a regular occurrence on national television, rather than just those who the BBC deem to worthy of airing their views, it would have produced a vastly different outcome.
Respectful gentlemanly debate.
Wonderful to watch. These kinds of honest, earthy current event discussions no longer exist sadly. As someone else said, debate these days is completely stifled.
I think not only stifled but also hijacked by people who can't have a disagreement without generalising and name-calling. I think that 24 hour news channels are not always a force for good in this way, although they like to blame social media.
The best, one of the very best Parkinson interviews. The likes of Ross, Norten and Corden can never hold a candle to Parkinson. I'm not familiar with Jimmy Reid but makes an excellent contribution. All 3 men are sadly no longer with us. There will never be another like Michael Parkinson A true legend who has interviewed many legends, and a gentleman. This might have become the benchmark for Question Time.
Contrast this with chat shows today. It's incredible just how much society has been dumbed down over the past 50 years.
Kenny was a great gentleman and genuine human being. His candour and simplicity is delightful.
Wow! You tend to forget what a real chat show used to be
I have been searching for this for ten years and was beginning to think that it was just a figment of my imagination. Thankyou so much for uploading, it hasn't disappointed in its thought provoking content.
I'm so glad you finally found it, and enjoyed it. I hope it was as good as you remembered.
This shows you the dire lowering of televisual standards of today.
Jimmy Reid, what a class act
Fabulous debate from two learned men whom I respect greatly. Great to watch.
Bloody hell we haven’t moved on have we? Jimmy Reid is so passionate to change the lives of people who are in any society, exploited. This kind of intelligent discussion would not be allowed in 2022 because it is too raw.
I loved watching this. I was a teenager at the time and it is still so vivid in my old memories. Magic. Life was better then.
Brilliant show! Thanks for posting... highly relevant issues even 50 years on
Thanks for commenting. I agree, it remains a fascinating debate, even if some of the attitudes are perhaps a little cringeworthy by today's standards - the references to 'brain damage' for instance, and Parky correcting an audience member and calling her 'luv'; but you certainly can't doubt the sincerity, and you're right about the relevance now. Sadly.
Imagine if our politicians could have a debate like this , with this level of discourse and mutual respect despite opposing views... tip of the hat to both these gentlemen
Couldn't agree more
I find Kenneth Williams endearing, admirable, intelligent and erudite; but there are some terrifying and brutal gaps in the heart of his worldview. However - appreciate his willingness to listen and find points of agreement.
Extremely well put, I thought. Totally agree.
You forget he was relatively uneducated. Despite that he shows incredible insight, intelligence, morality and foresight.
he was blaming the working class and poor for being poor and not the environment and economic circumstances in which they live.
What a guy Jimmy was! A true working - class hero! Let God bless and protect him.
A working class hero telling others to go on strike whilst still pulling his Trades Union salary? Aye the man was a Saint, right up there with that other self serving charlatan Scargill
Platitudes, fucking no sense
Are you fucking joking
smoking away and not even listening. He's entitled.
@@nigelbaldwin6438 that would be the strike that saved 800 jobs?
I love how Kenneth stood up for himself here.
you're right. he did stand up for "himself" didn't he.
Yes, and got put down by Parky rather too much. We loved Kenneth, still do, I was so sorry about his suicide.
@@eatmywordsNot really, considering that he was strongly advocating for the right of choice for individuals. For example, he expressed his lack of resentment for those more successful and richer than him. Kenneth didn't get to where he got to via charitable handouts, he got there through resilience and his ability to offer something to people that they wanted.
How thrilling to hear Jimmy Reid speak so coherently and passionately in defence of working class people! The Labour party meant something then. My Canadian father was an MP and MLA for the New Democrats, a democratic socialist party. These parties are watered down considerably now, but I was proud to be part of their philosophy in those days.
I remember this at the time. Anyone who thinks this wouldn't happen now should be aware that the idea that a self-confessed communist trade unionist getting this kind of prime-time to get a genuine hearing on a show watched by millions was unusual then. We already remember the old BBC Parky shows as old Hollywood celebs and Billy Connolly but this might be his finest hour.
Great to see this in full finally; many thanks.
Thanks and I'm very glad you enjoyed it.
Jimmy Reid was a principled giant of a man.
The quality of the expressions of opinion - even from the audience - is massively above anything we see today. People on today's equivalent programmes would be shouting over other, and yet mostly totally incapable of voicing reasoned argument to back up their point of view.
How sad that is.
That's the influence of America for you; we have been culturally and linguistically colonised by the USA, and you can see it in our degraded dress sense, slobby attitudes to food and speech, expanding waistlines, increasing use of emotion over reason, and 'winning' by shouting over the other person in an argument.
Very high quality debate. Such a thing does not exist anymore. How we have dumbed down.
Yes.
wonderful to see this back on youtube. the full programme was on a year or maybe 2 ago but vanished after a while. Thanks ever so much George.
Thanks, Ian, it's a real favourite of mine as well.
Amazing eloquent debate. Such a great shame that it is still as relevant now in 2024 as it was in the 1970s
Jimmy Reid was fucking brilliant.
Utter class we just don’t get the same level of debate today
Oh, for the days when a TV audience for a prime time chat show could be a genuine public political forum. Even public political party meetings are a thing of the past.
I agree. I like the fact that it was possible to have a serious and robust disagreement, over a sustained period, without things degenerating into juvenile name calling. Social media seems to get much of the blame for everything that is wrong with modern debate, but I think so called 'opinion' commentators in the big media organisations have contributed in the race to the bottom.
Thank you for uploading this programme, wonderful! Excellent dialectic. Kenneth Williams's flat was replaced by office development. "Society should be run on the basis of social need and not private greed."
I'm so glad you enjoyed it, I find it endlessly fascinating myself.
Great proud man.
@@GeorgeFairbrother thank you for this wonderful opportunity.
Arguments seldom heard now.
...And with a real sense of sincerity and authenticity borne out of personal experience.
There is absolutely nothing like this happening on British television nowadays. Everything now is ‘dumbed down’, puerile reality shows, most present tv encompasses the lowest common denominator, an insult to everyone’s intellect. All three here are putting their views/opinions so credibly that is impressive. One audience commentator suggested our society could regress, I think that has come to pass. Our society now is almost entirely centred on greed.
All three here were giants in their own field. Fierce debate, still with humour and the ability to listen to each other, is a lost art, sadly.
Totally agree.
100% correct - social media age - all "spouting off" and inability to listen
50 years on and nothing's changed. One wonders if it ever will.
Jimmy Reid was a hero. An absolute legend in the West of Scotland. Could listen to him all night. A very, very astute man.
I wish TV discussion shows could be conducted like this now.
I miss the days when people debated things and had constructive arguments.
So many echos for today in what Jimmy Reid said during that debate 50 years ago. Tony Benn often said that every generation must refight the same battles; it’s so true.
Gosh..just started watching this..Society hasn't got any better since the 1970s. Brilliant interview
Would be wonderful, if true and honest unions still existed. We need them now very much again. A great conversation. 2 wonderful individuals.
As would it be wonderful if true and honest government existed
A great example of scapegoating unions for the incompetencies of government.
can you imagine..
these days lol
thankyou for sharing this! 🙂 x
Thanks for commenting, this kind of debate seems to be a lost art, sadly.
@@GeorgeFairbrother i like to hope, maybe, in some obscure corner...
a comment section on a video even? lol
i know i've chatted a bit with people here on TH-cam..
stimulated by good content like this..
thanks again 🙂
Well, I was always taught by my mum when I said we couldn’t afford to stay at the Ritz - “well darling, we can always go to tea”. And we did! Many times. 😂. When I started work, I used to take her for lunch. Dinner was too expensive 😂
good point, and a nice thing to do, too...My mum, oftentimes, used to visit 'The Europa' Belfast's most posh hotel, and the most bombed hotel in the world...But, more interestingly, it was opposite the best pub in Belfast. The Crown Bar....
I agree with Jimmy about putting certain people on boats abroad and not noticing that they have gone.
Numerous quango members, charity bosses, civil servants, race baiting careerists..
And perhaps some media 'opinion' commentators...
:p
Parkinson's point here was a good one: that regardless, or perhaps because of Kenneth William's experience of being born to a blue collar background, his views paradoxically support and endorse privileged, middle and upper middle class people. Other British public intellectuals over the years have suggested much the same. For example, the assertion that Margaret Thatcher's success turned on the surprising support of a blue collar electorate, whilst her project was to economically and politically support the high end of town.
I always find it quite fascinating that KW close to the end also starts talking about things like housing and education as a fundamental right. It's all fascinating stuff.
Incredibly coherent true argument here.. Intelligent.. Intelligible.. Much that still needs addressing here in 2020,still as yet unresolved.
Superb interviewing and entertainment . What a difference from today's rubbish
George Fairbrother. You are a wonderful Man to share this epic interview. Thank you.
Thank you, Norma. I'm so glad you enjoyed it.
JR is a working-class hero!
For those who might be interested in how the relationship between Kenneth Williams and Michael Parkinson unfolded in the ensuing years, they had a very enjoyable, warm and friendly encounter in July of 1987, when Parky was hosting the BBC's Desert Island Discs programme and KW was his guest. Link here to the BBC website to listen or download;
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p009mljj
Parky "can you see Maggie Smith growing into one of our favourites?" - " ....... 'yes undoubtedly' Williams. ..... thank you George
The then controller of BBC One, Paul Fox hated this edition of Parkinson, especially the audience being able to ask questions and the confrontational nature, that he told Parkinson never ever again to go into this area of politics, otherwise his show would be cancelled.
@@johnking5174 Thank you for adding that - fascinating.
I've found this today on a day when nurses are striking for a large pay rise, interesting points made here. Always loved Kenneth, got upset when he passed away.
Hats off the man. Anyone attempting to bring this kind of debate to tv now would cancel out Kenneth and not even bat an eyelid.
It's fascinating to watch Kenneth Williams change when he hears an audience response. Much as he would like to be a philosopher, he reveals himself to be a true entertainer.
Jimmy is platitudes personified
@@djb1317 bullshit. If you think that you aren’t listening
I've never previously come across Jimmy Reid but have been completely balled over. I'm now a fan!
Agreed. Even if you don't subscribe to all of his political views, his passion and desire to try and improve people's lives, or perhaps empower them to improve their own regardless of circumstance, is something to be respected and admired enormously. I'm glad you enjoyed the video.
I'm was lucky enough to have in the back of my taxi now night many years ago what a lovely man he was
The phrase is "bowled over", not "balled over". It's a cricket term alluding to all of the bales bing knocked of the wicket by the ball. Where reid faield was in his outlook being so narrow. he failed to see the need of the country as a whole and would have happpily chosen communism to beter the lot of his class, which would have seen the entire country descend into shabby chaos.
Jimmy Reid was extremely well known in Scotland. I'm 61 and I remember him from a very young age. I used to watch Parkinson with my parents in the 70s , I've never seen this one before. It's a gem.
Fabulous debate! Could never happen today!
Jimmy Reid was articulate, talked sense and did his best for the Union members!
Thank you for this upload
Thank you, so glad you enjoyed it. They don't make 'em like this anymore. 😅
Did anyone else find that conversation moving - I've not even had much to drink?
Very much so. Even stone cold sober. :)
Strange how it's the same issues that we have today ,the ordinary people striking for a reasonable living standard and wage ....as Jimmy said it belongs to all of us🙏
wow! couldn't imagine auntie beeb broadcasting anythig like that nowadays.
I don’t think Kenneth Williams opposed the principles that the unions purported to stand for, he simply opposed the means by which they went about trying to achieve it as being, in his mind, self defeating and hypocritical. I think he felt that the prevalence of mind in unions tended to be, “one for all and all for one, because it’s good for me” as opposed to “one for all and all for one because it’s good for us”. I’m afraid I think I tend to agree with him, considering what little use the Union was to my dad when he needed their help with an employer dispute, after he’d given all his time and money to them for years.
Parkinson described this as Williams' worst performance, and I'm inclined to agree. He seems well-informed, but there's a lot of backtracking and logical subtefuge in his arguments (the way he responds to the audience member talking about her disabled son for example) which gives the impression he's thrashing around for the upper hand. Reid on the other hand comes across extremely well, but it's interesting how hostile the audience are to some of his arguments. Parkinson's objection to him quoting statistics is particularly fascinating. I presume this was done to level the playing field between the guests and provide balance, but it does result in the discussion becoming more subjective than it needs to be. But, that said, great piece of television - thanks for uploading.
Very good points. I wonder if Kenneth Williams came to this debate overconfident, seriously underestimating Jimmy Reid, and was actually quite rattled when Jimmy proved to be very articulate, polite and well read, and could match him, not only in politics and social issues, but also arts and poetry. The issue of hostility is an interesting one, I would imagine that feelings on both sides were running high due to ongoing and disruptive industrial actions, wage freezes etc. Thanks for your comments.
@@GeorgeFairbrother I have always wondered is Kenneth's centre right politics was also the reason for his frosty working relationship with some of his Carry On co-stars such as Sid James. Both Sid and Kenneth disliked each other. I wonder if it was down to politics too?
@@johnking5174 It's a fascinating point to consider. I can't imagine Kenneth Williams being hesitant to voice an opinion under any circumstances, and, unlike Sid, he wasn't always particularly polite. Yet he did have a very warm and close relationship with Barbara Windsor, and, apparently, also got on well with Babs' husband at that time, Ronnie Knight. I think a mutual respect evolved between him and Parky as well, as time went on, despite their political differences. I'm interested in the point you raise about Kenneth Williams' relationship with Sid, who by all accounts was enormously well-liked and got on with just about everyone. Worth looking into a little deeper. Thanks for your thoughts.
@@GeorgeFairbrother Thanks for that. I do know that in some ways Sid was conservative but not in politics. Sid's son Steven said his father used to like the children being respectful to their mother. When they were out for a walk, the son and Sid would walk on the edge of the footpath with the mother always walking in the inner part, showing respect. Sid hated swearing, and also detested people being rude, which Kenneth used to excel at, farting all the time, especially when the cast had lunch. Sid found that disgusting. However I do know from his son Steven that Sid James was liberal on sexuality. He was not homophobic, which I think Kenneth felt he was. That was wrong. Because John Inman from Are You Being Served said he and Sid got on so well especially during panto season. He told the story of when Are You Being Served had become a huge hit by 1975 and he was in panto with Sid. Sid came to John's dressing room on the night before they broke up for Christmas with a huge bottle of champagne, and toasted John's success. "Isn't it great" was the words Sid used, and John was so overcome we with happiness. Sid was wonderful to him. Now if Sid was homophobic, do you think he would have done that for John Inman, who was 100 times more camp than Kenneth. What do you think?
@@johnking5174 That's a great story about John Inman, who I think is one of the most likeable performers of that era. I tend to agree, if Sid disliked KW it was to do with his manners and general behaviour, which I think even fans agree wasn't always ideal. Time to go back and re-read some old bios I think. The dynamic between all those personalities is fascinating.
Why can't we have this today..
The 47 year old head teacher even in 19 73 was so naive about how the corrupt system works.
there are so many points where I was surprised not to hear the audience clapping loudly for Jimmy Reid
The unions ruined Britain in the 70's, I'm not surprised that people were cheesed off at rail strikes, coal strikes, power cuts and 3 day weeks.
What a class act that man was. RIP Kenneth
what? 2nd class comedian.....that's it
You mean Jimmy, surely.
@@grahamboffey457 no he doesn't
I was never a “ union man” as the bias against them was so misrepresented at the time! Both Jimmy and Ken made good points,! I think history has proven both ?
I agree, it's a fascinating discussion whether you agree with the points made or not. You can see how life experience shaped their views, particularly in Jimmy Reid's case. The thing I find fascinating about KW, for all his 'dig in your own bit of garden' and 'know your limitations' rhetoric, by the end, if I remember correctly, he's talking about housing as a fundamental human right. There certainly seemed to be an authenticity and sincerity that is not always evident today.
Excellent discussion and surprisingly as relevant as ever.
jesus h christ!!!! I was a 16 year old in my second year in the army so never got to see this, but that was a great watch, and nothing whatsoever has changed in the 50 years since then, 2022 and we're going through the exact same things and guess what the the tories have been in government for 35 years of that time
How did I know he was gonna be a Scotsman? Great debate and great entertainment.
The then controller of BBC One, Paul Fox hated this edition of Parkinson, especially the audience being able to ask questions and the confrontational nature, that he told Parkinson never ever again to go into this area of politics, otherwise his show would be cancelled.
Could you imagine an interview like this happening in the 2020's? Ehhh......didn't think so.
A tv show host letting the guests answer . . wow !!
Jimmy Reid speaks morally...Kenneth speaks logically. It comes down to what you feel is more important.
I also think that Kenneth's religious views eventually boil to the top, and become harder to digest.
“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.” Einstein...
Sadly, I doubt that any celebrities from this day could have an intelligent conversation like this.
I totally agree, it's something very special to look back on.
Great to see Jimmy Reid effortlessly puncture Kenneth Williams’s pomposity. What a fierce intelligence Reid had. A hero of mine in these spineless, back-stabbing times.
lol
I agree..
But what a joy to see and hear Williams not being silly "Kenneth Williams" for once and speaking like a human.
Fantastic TV..
bluesboy54321 What I didn’t say was that Kenneth Williams is another hero of mine, although obviously not due to his political views. But his Diaries are well worth reading - and re-reading - as I often do.
Amen to that. There are no more like him and we're all the poorer for it.
Debatable Truths I hope an expanded version of the diaries is published before too long. Kenny had a way with (barbed) words.
Absolutely fascinating, Parky bringing two entirely, in some ways contrasting, personalities together with an interactive audience. No fawning or graces. Each with their own distinct view and description of the same world. As a mere youth, I must’ve been tucked up bed when this one aired otherwise I’d have some recall of its expansive content.
The last generation could handle themselves in a debate better than this generation.
Amazing to think this was mainstream prime time tv. Now what do we get? Mind numbing drivel like Britain’s Got Talent.
When people like Jimmy Reid, Parkinson and Kenneth Williams were kicking about, the fact Britain had talent was never in doubt.
We are receding.
Michael Parkinson rather misrepresented this later in his life. In a documentary about Kenneth, he gave the impression that Kenneth Williams spent the entire episode sulking and withdrawn, so when I viewed this for the first time myself, it came as a surprise to see that, whilst possibly anxious and not quite his usual uninhibited self, he conducted himself admirably and more than held his own.
This particular show is remarkable, in that it is highly unusual for what was an entertainment programme, to break off and address these serious issues. According to Kenneth's diaries, the BBC sought to avoid this sort of thing from then onwards.
Parkinson didn't like Kenneth Williams.
@@ppuh6tfrz646 Yes, he said so later, but I'm not convinced. I think perhaps it may have been a case of him having subsequently read the snarky remarks Kenneth wrote about him in his diaries, and him not wanting to lose face, so he retrospectively claimed that the feeling was mutual.
I think he did like Kenneth, and was completely unaware that Kenneth disliked him until he picked up his diaries. Many people who spent time with Ken had a similar experience.
Ken though did warm to Parkinson later on, as his diaries also record. I'm pretty sure that Parkinson wouldn't have had someone on so often as a guest, had he loathed them as much as he later claimed.
@@ppuh6tfrz646and he made it very obvious.. not professional.
I thoroughly enjoyed this, a very intellectual discussion with good points from both sides.
I think both Jimmy and Kenneth cared about other people but had different ways of showing it. Very interesting discussion. You'd never see anything like this now
I agree, their sincerity is evident whether you agree or not with their political views. I think KW might have underestimated Jimmy Reid and found himself a little out of his depth at times, but it was a great discussion.
@@GeorgeFairbrother And there was a mutual respect under the disagreements they had for each other. This type of discussion would never happen today on TV. It is the era of the shouty attention seeker, who can make the most noise, the sensationalist, the controversalist and the attention seeker. Noise counts over substance
@@alanberkeley7282 Yes - A KEY point that sums everything up perfectly.
Jimmy cared about himself
@@djb1317 Like the Thatcher philosophy then.
Kenneth was so much deeper than was understood, retrospective commentaries have made him out to be tragic even by his closest colleagues, but he was brave but civil,--- a collossus of any era,
He was very quick. You had to be on your toes with him.
@@WintersWar I think the feminine side in him was very strong. That's obvious in his campy mannerisms you might say, but he was razor sharp in terms of wit and verbalizing his thoughts as he was thinking them, almost split second delivery. Most men cannot verbalize like that, as we see when women wipe the floor with them in heated discussions.