Butt Welding VS Overlapping Sheet Metal Panels
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- In today's video we discuss Butt Welding VS Overlapping Sheet Metal Panels on your project. Which should you be using? What the reasons you should be butt welding? Why would you be overlapping? What does this all mean???? Check out today's video to learn more about Butt Welding vs Overlapping!
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Do you butt weld or overlap your replacement panels? Are you considering practicing Butt Welding panels more if you have been Overlapping?
Good point; it's definately easier to hammer & dolly sheet metal when butt welding panels together - seems kind of obvious, but I've never thought about it so succinctly for some reason :P
Maybe you could do a similar video on TIG versus MIG welding panels together (MIG welds seem to shrink more than TIG welds and are harder to shape with a hammer and dolly than TIG welds are)
I do butt welds in my old classic cars because the metal was so much thicker,,,but new cars I lap the new cars metal is just so thin
@@georgespangler1517 totally agree. the only way to do a repair on a newer car properly is to lap. Old stuff you can do either. but some areas I still lap. Round areas. if its easier lap it. long areas sometimes lap to prevent warpage. As long as I achieve a minimal amount of filler and the end results are nice. Who Fn cares.
I have been building cars my whole life and I am 56 years old. I wont do it for other people. I only do them for myself. I worked in a body shop and custom shop when I was much younger. I started building cars before I had a drivers license. I can say there is NO one size fits all for repairs. Some areas NEED to be lapped. to get a strong repair. They are weak points in the car you are trying to correct. for a lasting repair. I have taken apart my work 20 years later and the idealism of the rust getting between the 2 layers is not realism of what reality is. On thinner than 20 gauge you ARE weakening the panel. Next to where you weld the metal is melted and it is thinner by a small margin. The metal is already thin if you lap you have 2 layers to make up for the loss of metal . Plus your grinding you loose a bit for that. No repair will last FOREVER either. everything will eventually be exactly what it is... a REPAIR. As long as your repair meets the needs of what your trying to achieve it is just fine. You next gens got a lot to learn. Not being negative. Just real and no thumbs down just letting you know where I stand on this stuff. Got a few years on you bud. Keep building cars and keep it FUN. Dont overstress on how long your repair will last just do the right thing you think you need to do for what you do.
The biggest hang up for me about lapping autobody sheet metal is that...lapped pieces of metal are the entire reason your car rusted out in that area. Lapped metal just collects dirt, moisture, and salt. How do you paint/protect the inside of the lap?
I get the feeling that the concept of lapping metal is done by people from the south or southwest where everything is much less corrosive.
I have very marginal experience with auto body so I don't really care what people do, and I am not saying one way is better than the other. But lapping sheet metal seems very wrong.
Here is where I stand on this. Butt welding is WEAKER than lapping and years ago if you butt welded a panel in and the insurance adjuster saw it.... your would loose your contract period. However on 16 gauge or 18 gauge steel it is fine for a good repair. Some areas have weak points like VW fenders and some areas of the hood. To properly repair those areas lapping is the ONLY way to do the repair long lasting. IMO if you can do the repair and achieve the fillers specification, Especially with the quality of the premium fillers today, There is nothing wrong with lapping. Even with 20 gauge steel you can use either lap or butt to achieve the same quality finished product. Some areas a lap is just fine and some areas to get the finish you need only a butt is the way to do it. This is not a one size fits all business. I have been building car my whole life and nice ones at that. Now when your talking NEW cars 22 gauge.... I would NEVER BUTT WELD. IT is too weak a repair for the thin sheet metal. Next to where you weld the metal is thinner from the heat. There is NO one size fits all. to this stuff. BTW I still give the video a thumbs up because you are restoring cars.
Ive always butt welded since i started repairing cars, with tig theres no gap, with mig i use a gap about the diameter of the mig wire and make sure the gap doesnt close up as i go
Solid input. I don't know why I never replied to say so. 👍👍 I have been known to leave a material thickness gap on mig welding bit I only mig weld chassis stuff usually. Thanks
Alan - very well presented, and I'm completely on-board with butt just about any sheetmetal repair!
Much appreciated Ron.
Hi Ron, been watching your awesome videos.😊
Ron covell good
Even on 22 gauge? not agreeing with that one. Too thin for a butt. you need the strength of the lap.
@@Mikefngarage I think even 20 gauge is too thin to butt. Most body shops want their techs to do lap repairs. If you take care of it, the repair can last for many years
Agreed where you're going to use filler definitely butt weld, but no pun intended when your fabricating anything under like wheel wells or trunk area and like package tray areas definitely this is the way to go with a flange. It serves the purpose to make it stronger one reason and you can always go back in there behind it with a rust preventative easy peasy
My unibody classic car was built at the factory with overlapping sheet metal panels, not a butt weld anywhere.
Every method has place, depends on the situation because in my experience, I'm consistently challenged and sometimes one method is more feasible over the ideal.
If your only reason that Butt Welding ISN'T the way to do the job is "It takes too law and requires too much effort" your argument is that you aren't willing to invest the time into improving your skills and doing the job right. That is your problem not mine.
8 months into welding sheet metal. Went straight to butt welding due to good advice as this. Getting better. Patience patience patience. Enjoyed your vid. Subscribed. Cheers.
I do both mainly do butt on painted visible surfaces (rocker patches quater patches etc) but on unseen stuff like floors toe kicks I flang those spot weld and seam sealer
I disagree,,, I overlap only a quarter inch,,,and you can work it,,,if you butt weld you will have to almost grind out all the weld to make it as flat as the lap weld and weaken it,,I've seen alot more butt weld failures then lap welded,,, either is going to condensate,,, just don't make laps so wide and it will do fine..not too mention the time it takes to fit the panels perfect,,,that's why people can't afford to pay to have them done,,,not many people can weld..
Either will condensate, only the overlap provides a place for condensation to be trapped. Fitting a panel for a butt weld just requires time. And honestly that time reduces the amount of time and materials needed for body work.
An overlap will NEVER be able to be hammered flat and true. Close? Maybe. But there will always be some step, some gap, some issue requiring an increased amount of filler to compensate.
I entirely grind the weld to meet the base metal. You should not dig into the base metal, but meet it. This is a skill that again just requires time and attention to detail.
If you have seen failed butt welds, you have seen failed fabricators, not a failed process. A proper butt weld can be finished smooth and be as strong if not stronger than the base material.
Do what you feel is acceptable. To me an overlap on patch panels never will be. Ever.
Well said. A well executed lap weld will be superior to a poorly executed butt weld. BOTH will require some kind of treatment on the back side to prevent corrosion.
Some 'experts' say TIG only...
WHY limit yourself to ANY ONE solution?
In 1987 I fixed a rust hole in a trunk with aluminum pop riveted in and fiberglass over that. It has been outside ever since, never rusted out and no 'expert' could detect it by looking in the trunk...
It has never rusted out yet. It's not the welding they counts for corrosion. All steel is more prone to rust after any kind of welding. It's the coating after welding that prevents moisture exposure and rusting. If I'm wrong, butt weld a panel, panel beat it perfect and don't paint it! A piece of metal that is butt welded, lap welded or not welded at all will rust without a chemical barrier.
My take: Butt welds make you FEEL better. They are pretty. They warp more, so you HAVE to panel beat it.
Lap welds are ugly, warp the least and are the STRONGEST repair.
I'm sure on some other planet, there are aliens who will accept nothing less than Anti-Matter Laser Plasma Fusion Butt Joints but they really aren't any better than plain old Nuclear Fused Lap Joints....
But there will always be a smart ass superior civilization that uses a time machine to go back and prevent the damage in the first place...
Ok, so what about the filler material required on an exterior panel with an overlapped joint? You have at least the material thickness required for the overlap. If you step your panel for the overlap you've created a rigid spot on the panel that WILL expand and contract that different rates. I have absolutely seen cars out in the sun where you can tell where an overlap is because of this differing rate of expansion. Whether it be due to the excess filler material required before paint or the excess rigidity in the panel.
This isn't solely about corrosion. You guys are picking and choosing what you want to discuss as important.
Let me ask you something, How do you know your floor pan patch hasn't rotted? It's caked under fiberglass. You'd have to disassemble it to confirm. I've cut apart hundreds of cars and found those types of patches and they are always rotten under the material. Just because it hasn't popped through yet doesn't mean it won't. Also an aluminum pop riveted in piece is not strong. So if you get hit in the rear end, you've created a weak spot for the floor to be smashed around. In a professional shop that is a liability. If an insurance company investigates and finds improper repair work like that they can claim damages as your fault and make you liable. If a person gets injured you better hope you can afford that bill.
@@HotRodHippie as I said only a quarter inch lap solves all your concerns,
@@georgespangler1517 How? It still creates an extra rigid spot on a panel. Still has an overlap where condensation and corrosion can form. Still proves more difficult to hammer into proper shape. (Even if it is easier than say a 3/4" overlap it is still more difficult than a butt weld.) And Still requires extra filler, primer, and preparation.
All it does is make it easier to fit a panel up and weld it. That is it. You may lessen some of my problem points, but not solve them.
The corrosion/ rust thing is the first thing I thought of when you started talking about this. Nice video.
i had a teacher once tell me there is 3 ways to do something 1.your way 2. my way 3. the right way and i am going to teach all 3 in this class. so i am a blank page teacher help me learn the right way.
I daringly tackled my first ever welding as a old 95 bmw e34. Learned A TON while going, still learning and improving. I agree on butt-weld because you are not creating rust pockets.
Am 65 now, I began to weld with oxy-acetylene when I was 16. Am still use oxy-acetylene in some cases. I learn to mig 1979, when for first time I meet a representative from HTP at a paint store and tools supplier. I don't have the customers for buttwelds, my customers are in the average preserve repair. I did some buttwelds, but is not my favorite. Nice video, thanks.
I try to butt weld body panels, but with my $100 Harbor Freight flux welder it comes out "half-ass" welds 🙄
Thank you 3M for Bondo Hair 😆
I have that same welder and came to the conclusion that it's garbage for sheet metal. As soon as I upgraded to gas mig, it was night and day.
Again Love your teaching style! And you earned yourself a subscriber! Having said that, I am replacing my rockers on a 85 chevy crew cab cummins, where should i purchase the rockers and any installation instructions tips would be Much appreciated!! Thanks again!
I'm so glad you explained this for everyone I'm always telling people to butt weld some even try to argue the point saying it's fine especially some of these utube panel beaters lol keep up the good work.and nice job on the Chevy quarter that would have taken a while.
I’ve put a flange on big replacement panels to have a go way to hold the panel with some spot welds in place but but later I’ll cut the flange and line up the butt welds
Suggestion: Buy Clecos. Overlap, drill and click the panels together. Then you can tack the butt weld and cut off the flange for a butt weld seam. I need to do a video demonstrating this.
th-cam.com/video/p-UuKVRHrco/w-d-xo.html
@@HotRodHippie yeah never seen those they seem sweet
Overlap and screw in place then cut at the overlap on one side or corner then work your way around with a butt joint until everything is a butt joint. Much easier than trying to make the piece a perfect fit all at once, much quicker also. I’m very new to this but this method is like having help hold it in place. IMO.
Yes I agree if you stack metal on metal it will never look right and will haunt you for years to come.
Thanks for you videos, they all help I learn something from each of them.
I butt weld, using miniature clamps between the two pieces of metal. Thanks for your great videos.
so I just got my first welder. I was thinking of overlapping my rocker panels because they are conered with fiberglass skirts. is this a spot were I'd in "ok"
Very very well said , HHR. That's how I was taught. You're always trying to take to where it's as close to how it left the factory as possible within your means. Plus filler gets very heavy!
👍👍👍 Thank you for the comment. Glad folks get it.
Me a rookie body man. But 12year welder...argue this point with my older brother all the time..who is a 20+ year auto body guy...preach on brother..lol
About to do lower door panels and rocker and floors on a 56 Chevy wagon 2 door , first heavy for me body work bought mig welder , I’m gonna but weld watched DD speed shop he said the same thing
great video I was considering an overlap but you have convinced me otherwise..tyvm practice practice!
I'm trying to Prep my truck for butt welding I have holes I have to butt. Thanks for the info 👍
You sound like a nice guy with plenty of experience and common sense, but your tatoos are a real turn off. I'm sure you do excellent work, but why deface your body?
Very good video sir! I to am learning to butt weld my patch panels. I am using a Dillon gas torch. To me the gas welds are much softer and take the hammer and dolly work much better. I am very much looking forward to your demonstration videos. Thanks, Tom
So glad you made this video for me and other car inthuesist. You see I have a 56 Pontiac Safari . a little bit more rare than a Chevy Nomad. Not that their is anything wrong with Nomads. Any way my Safari is my High School car that is in need of a floor pan replacement 's . so their's a difference between Pontiac and Chevy floor pan's . I bought both because the Pontiac pan's are flat pieces which had some issues . the metal was flexing like a sprung piece of steel. So after talking to a HOT ROD shop I decided to purchase a set of Chevy floor pan's because they were stamped with rolled edges which made them much stronger with no flex ,but now I need to use both sets with modifications to make them work for my needs. And sorry to say I was thinking of overlapping until watching your video now i will use strips of steel and cleakoes to hold in place while tack welding in place. Thanks for your insight as I am wanting to do it correctly.
Hi Alan,
What do you recommend to protect overlap or spot welder for rust. Weld thru primer, epoxy prime after or other
Thanks
The debate of flange welding or butt welding automotive body panels has been a question that had remained unanswered in my head for a while until now. You've cleared my head, thanks.
I have a question. What do you think of that air tool that slightly turns down the edge of the two panels to be butt welded? It essentially makes a small trough for the weld settle into so that the weld isn't sitting on top of the metal. This is supposed to allow you to do less grinding and give the weld more strength. The tool in question is Eastwood: "Pneumatic Perfect Panel Prep Tool" Item#21128. Thanks again for sharing your smarts.
I absolutely despise that tool. I think it's the worst of both worlds. Means you will have the trouble of lining up a butt welded panel, and none of the benefit. You won't be able to hammer and dolly a panel properly after using it because now your weld area is multiple times thicker than it should be. I'd rather see someone save themselves the trouble and just overlap a panel rather than use that tool.
Thank you for the comment and question.
@@HotRodHippie , I appreciate the quick reply. I knew that there was a good reason to subscribe to your channel. There's a lot of BS out there concerning metal working automotive body panels and you seem to make a lot of sense.
Damn! I feel so old. When I got my first car I couldn't afford a welder, or much of a car. Am I the only living antique who feathered the edges and sweat soldered patches onto his clunker?
We gas welded panels in with bronze rod...brazing...not great but better than pop rivets!
He is so right about rust, my pick even under shelter rusted (good ole south Georgia humidity) I am repairing the bed, new floor and plan to replace the lower 3" both sides and front. A bit of a challenge as I am learning as I go but it will happen and I plan to butt weld, there is no hidden side. Long pieces of square tubing for straight lines.
Thank you so much for this video. I just asked this question yesterday on someone else’s video and this pops up with the answer today. 👍
Glad I could answer your question! Look out for more on this topic and some better nuance on it in the future.
Just did my first panel with the Eastwood v flange tool , gives a nice valley for weld to go in,, check into it l love it
Damn my ADD kicked in hard about a minute in
Picked up a Forney 140 flux core welder. Butt weld a section of left side rear wheel arch near gas fill tube. Ok to buttweld or use 3m seam 8115 and clamp? Trying to keep repair size small with minimal filler. Thanks for the knowledge.
You are going to have a heck of a time butt welding in with a Flux Core machine unfortunately. Is it a long term fix on a project you really care about? Or something that just needs to last a few years? If it’s just a “fix” the panel bond method will work ok. It will require more filler in the long run and last a shorter time, but it’s a far simpler process. Along that same vein, for a quick patch job, an overlap and the Flux Core will get the job done. But if it’s something you really want to last, practice some sheet metal butt welding (of the same or similar thickness) on the welding bench and see how it goes. I find Flux Core harder to control the heat input so it’s going to be a challenge, but there is no replacement for a good butt welded in patch.
Who would ever admit to overlapping ?
cheesy
Use weld through primer beforehand, behind panels you can't paint after welding.
You're correct. Gas welding a butt weld panel is the best and easiest way to go as well. I knew everything you said many years ago by reading books from master body men but I too thought it was a difficult repair to make until I saw an English chap do it and then I wasn't so intimidated. Like EVERYTHING we do, it's easier than you think, and all the more so with practice.
100% correct mate! Should NEVER be used in Resto work.
I'd love to butt-weld but the piece has to be perfectly shaped first... I have seen an old technique where the piece is over-lapped and clecoed in then a small (1-2) inch cut is made and then the overlapping piece is pushed down and butt-welded. A few inches at a time. This way the piece is forced into shape. I will try this.
That is basically how I do it. I lay my new panel over the old one, cleco them together, scribe in the cut line, then cut it and file fit before I weld.
You should aim to always have a "relaxed" panel that fits properly before you start welding though. I am completely guilty of it, but that is the goal. If a panel doesn't want to lay flat, butt up nicely, it will only get worse with welding. That tension acts kind of like kinetic energy that the weld releases. Tense panels result in more warpage from welding and more need to hammer and dolly a finished panel.
I will cover how I do these things in videos sometime soon hopefully. You are definitely on the right track in my opinion. 👍👍
HotRodHippie well, I’m subscribed:) thanks!
Got an old truck, bottom of door rusted gone but welded outside skin on, whole length of bottom of door about 3.5 inches high, kind of rippled bottom of new panel in a couple spots, I should try to hammer and dolly flat before I put inside skin on? thanks
Yes you should. Welds shrink as they cool. They need to be hit with a hammer and Dolly to stretch back out a little and smooth out. I'll be covering that in a new series I'm doing about repairing s VW fender shortly.
I am currently restoring a 1966 car which has been sanded on and painted several times prior. I gave up trying to butt weld panels as the metal is so thin I kept burning through. Turned the heat down, wire feed low/high...no difference. Any attempt to correct the burn through just added to the problem. Lap welding in this case is working much better, and no, it isn't going to Barret Jackson.
yeah. i tried after watching this... burn thru and a valley where the weld was that needed 2 be filled
Thanks for the Lesson Thumps up
If you were converting a truck bed from long to short, what would be your preferred welding method, MIG, TIG, or both?
Personally I TIG weld basically everything. Depending on how I went about it (would depend on the specific vehicle) I would probably TIG weld almost all of it and any spot welding would be done with MIG welding. That said, the folks at Metal OX Fab are releasing a how to video on 67-72 Chevy bed shortening. I haven’t seen it to give a review and it seems a hair pricy at $27 but it’s a place to get some more info. www.metaloxfab.com/shop/67-72-c10-short-bed-conversion-how-to-video
I'm not good at butt welding but I think this video is going to help me. thanks
interesting ive done a lot but weld ok, , , and was now going to overlapping- but you have changed my mind , its obvious that it is not easy to afterwards correct the panel, but i Wonder if overlapping on the inside is pointing downwards, then there is no opportunity for water vapor to condense..
You'd allow drainage but condensation would still absolutely occur. So it may last longer but will still eventually corrode unnecessarily.
The absolute only situation where I promote overlapping is to add strength. And in that respect I just mean things like floor pans, A/B-pillars, and wheel wheel openings where you need the added rigidity of multiple layers.
Looking forward to the next videos! I've always been told to leave a sawblade gap between the panels, to give the panels room for expansion.. Looking forward to hearing your take on this and your next videos. Thanks for a great channel! Edit. Done both, types. On floors I've always butt welded, door sheets always overlapped.. Willing to improve and change my ways though.. ;)
What's with the Abraham Lincoln look
Buttweld looks much better at the end and can be tinned.
Where the video where use cleco for making flat fit.
I use to overlap everything for the same reason you've mentioned didn't know better. Nowadays I even butt weld the slap it on and get jobs. I'm looking forward to the future vids good job on all you've done so far.
Do manufacturers butt weld sheet metal together? I see all sorts of overlaps I don't think I've ever seen a OEM butt weld
Because the OEM isn't replacing sections of panels. They have the manufacturing to make a 6 foot long quarter panel in a single piece. You basically DO see "butt welds" the middle of their panels are one continuous piece. That is what a Butt Weld is attempting to recreate. You'll never see a manufacturer put an overlap joint in the middle of a door skin, fender, etc.
The problem we have in the aftermarket is replacement parts. Can I get a complete quarter panel for a 1955 Chevy and not have to butt weld OR overlap? Sure, but I know from experience they are pure garbage. The shapes of them are incorrect to the original car, the flanges aren't as crisp, and they will look terrible when installed. So if all I have is a rusted out wheel arch, why replace the entire quarter panel and spend weeks to get it right? I can cut just the wheel arch out of the replacement panel (or just get that part) and butt weld it in. Finish it off, and now it is once again, one complete part.
Using 2 cleco's with a joining piece between them to keep panel gaps - genius!!!
I can't claim the idea as my own. I don't remember exactly where I got the idea but it may have been Lazze's Metalshaping. I do something else that is even easier now, but I have yet to do a video about it. I will sometime soon.
i had never even welded anything before but just completed 30 patch panels (YES 30) in my CJ5 JEEP and 7 in my 240Z all with great success - Just take the time to make and fit the patch with 1/32 gap and tack evenly and opposite the last tack leaving enough time to let the panel cool in between tacks to minimize warpage,worked great for me
Excellent input. I'm glad it worked out for you. Perfect example how with the proper mindset and patience you can do this. 👍
Awesome video
Thank you very much!
I'm new at this craft but I did use the butt weld on my last project. One day my panels will be smooth and minimal use of body filler would be great! Someday.
All you can do is try. The fact that you want them to be goes a long way Vs not caring. 👍👍
Alot of bs in this vid. I can't say i advocate doing either way. Both techniques have their place. I do it both ways depending on what the repair is and/or vehicle getting repaired.
No reason for a overlapped panel to have a pile filler in a overlap panel.....you still should fit the thing good. No reason to overlap 2 inches worth of panels either. One should really only overlap enough to make it easier to weld, like 1/4 inch or less. the step also retains more of the weld improving weld strength and thus panel strength.
It requires way more time to fit butt welded panels. Most customers don't really want to pay for that extra time. Most just want their stuff fixed. If it's a newer vehicle butt welding in a panel isn't even a option. The metal is simply to thin.
You're also more apt to have a pinhole in the weld to create a problem down the road with a butt panel. Both repairs should be welded in nicely but that's not the case usually. Most bodymen can't weld for shit from what I've seen. Then compound that with sheetmetal sucks to weld anyways unless you spend a bunch of time prepping both sides of it.....it seems a small overlap is probably the way to go for all but the most high end builds in the end.
Good tip.....instead of advocating butt welds to these guy something shoulda been said about using a stronger water resistant filler as their base on any welded in panel. That will go further to holding a repair than either technique vs regular bodyfiller.
Hi, I build high end custom cars and teach people the proper techniques to repair and restore cars. I'm not out here teaching the way to cut corners and get a random body shop job out the door under time.
To say that "Body Guys can't weld" is a reason to dictate a repair method is a confusing leap in logic. I'd say, "They should learn to weld.". I TIG weld butt welded in panels on cars from the 1920s up to modern day.
Just because you find what I'm saying to be too time intensive doesn't mean I'm wrong. Every point I make still stands no matter how little you overlap. You still have a place for moisture to be trapped (No matter what materials you use in between the overlap or to fill/seal it). You still require more filler than a butt weld will, no matter how well you fit an overlap. And a proper butt weld has no pinholes. It's only laziness that would allow that.
I never claimed this was the quick and easy method of panel fitment. It's just the ultimately correct way of doing it. Fitting butt welded panels is absolutely more time consuming, but once you get the hang of it it really isn't difficult.
If you never aim for perfect, you won't accidentally stumbled upon it. When you set out saying "That's too much work, I'm going to go the easier route" you may do an excellent job at that easier route, but it will never be the proper way because you chose that from the outset.
I could accept if you were saying "I accept that butt welding is the ideal way to do it, but due to time / skill / lack of tools / etc I cannot do it that way in my day to day work.". I get that. However I can't accept you telling me I'm simply WRONG because you can't be bothered. Everyone seems to take offense to my teaching the proper techniques because they don't want to put in the effort or time to do the job properly. And that isn't a fault in myself or what I'm teaching.
Yeah, so I'm not a SEMA guy, so...
Dude I like your style and you are 100% right we cut away rest to keep it out It sucks to install a new part you work hard and come to find out down the road you Neglected that new install piece of material and restart EASY never comes cheap
I'm glad you see where I am coming from. Having to redo poor restoration work really bums me out. And no one is happy having to pay to fix something they already paid to fix.
Great video. I'm starting to do a frame off resto on my 1968 galaxie 500xl. The only rot in the floors is the trunk and I'm making the new panel and butt welding everything. I'm def not a pro welder and this takes a long time but by far a better product in the end.
And it will be much weaker. Factory overlaps for a reason.... it's stronger
nice dude, question i can't find a propre video on how to install butt clamps, when you can't get to the back of the panel to install the square block on the clamp???all the videos i seen show how to install them on a bench with two pieces of sheet metal...what should i do..
Thanks for making this video. What are your thoughts when you actually want to add some structure? 99% of the sheetmetal welds I've done on my current projects have been but welds, however I was shaving a section of the firewall and the area seemed a little too flimsy, i don't have a beed roller to add structure. the panel I made had a flange 360 degrees around, then I fully welded that from the motor engine side (managing the heat). my thought was that the point that could be subject to potential moisture is on the interior side. I know a but weld would have been better, but the flange does add some structure. I guess ideally a couple of beeds would have been better?
Beadrolling would be ideal there but that said I support overlapping in scenarios like that. When it comes to actual structural situations overlapping makes sense. The disadvantages are outweighed by the added strength when done properly. Firewalls and Floor pans I usually overlap at the edges.
In your situation I could see maybe making a hat channel type of cross member and welding it to the firewall from the inside. Then you could use that to mount wiring to or something like that under the dash. It isn't how I'd do it but I understand your situation.
I have always tried to butt weld, but as a very amateur welder I find I get to much warpage in the panel. I Understand that is the result of getting to much heat in the panel but even when I think I am managing the heat better I still end up with a bit of warpage in the end. Also need to practice my shrinking as a result. I am looking forward to your promised videos to see what tricks there are to do it better.
I can tell you already you'll learn something. It sounds like yiu maybe attacking things backwards. Warping when butt welding a panel is a result of the weld itself shrinking. It is a result of the rapid cooling of the hot weld but you need to syreych the weld and closely surrounding metal back out a bit to counter act things. Not to say I never shrink things as well in the process.
Well presented, you were passionate about taking the time to do it right, i was straight up going to lap weld, so glad i watched
Good on you - you’re so right! I’ve always laughed at Eastwood for wanting us to buy their tools and do lap joints!
I get lap joints. I don't approve but I get them. What Eastwood sells that I just don't get is those pliers that make a V-groove of sheetmetal to "fill with weld". So one goes through all the effort of properly fitting a butt welded panel then ruins it with a groove that is "easy to weld". Sigh
Flanging allows you to get perfect depth of opposing panels and reduces heat warpage a thousand percent.
And clamping two materials butted together (of equal thickness) doesn't get you the "perfect depth"? All flange making tools I'm aware of don't have variable depth settings to account for material thickness differences. So no, you really won't get "Perfect Depth" that way. And "Heat Warpage" is actually "Material Shrinkage" and pretty easily corrected with proper panel prep & metal finishing after welding. Flanges only prevent it by causing stresses in the panels that make it overly rigid and reinforced. Thus creating & adding to the issues I stated in this video.
Just because Flanging is easier, does not mean it is superior. Butt Welding isn't for everyone, I get that, but difficulty alone doesn't decide how effective a technique is.
I feel like I'm being brain washed lol
Butt welding sheet metal is hard because somewhere around the line, you gonna blow hole through the metal.
I never said it was the easy way. With practice the amount of blow-thru is minimal at best. I do it often and unless dealing with particularly poor quality old metal I rarely blow through.
I’m a bit late on this video but thx for the top tips from someone about to try and teach himself how to mig weld. People with your skill and passion enable people like me to learn this handy skill. Thx for putting the time and effort into presenting this.
Can butt welding be combined with plug welding and if so what is the combination called.
no
Great motivation. Good information
One of the best Manipulating Automobile Metal Channels on TH-cam !
injustice to your hand , Surrey
Where's the "how to butt weld" video?
Dude lose the mutton chops sooo 1800s
Keep up the Awesome Videos ! The Koffin Kats are releasing a few singles and looking to Tour this year. Just a heads up.
I saw a message earlier today about some new singles. I'm looking forward to checking them out., 👍👍
What do you think about using lap welds for a metal patch in rust repair?
I was referring to replacing panels for rust as well as panel damage here. Everything I said stands true of rot repair as well. Especially with rust repair in my opinion. I'd hate to repair a thing in a way that could easily lead to future issues while trying to fix an issue. I always try to leave a project in better shape than it was originally. Taking note of what caused the original rot (if I can tell) and addressing it as I go.
I'm not a body and fender guy. But I'm so old school I've always butt welded oxy-acetylene for my sheetmetal projects. I assume you take care of shrinkage with hammer and dolly stretching or air hammer?
You are correct I hand hammer and dolly my welds to stretch out the shrink. I've been known to planish with a planishing hammer but lately I've been doing it all by hand instead. The air hammers I have on hand just don't do the job quite to my liking.
My sheetmetal repairs early on was on farm equipment like truck hoods, tractor hoods, harvester covers and one was a really extensive repair on a portable grain elevator. This was in the 70's so I'm not even sure something like those air powered units that make laps was around. But if they were I wouldn't have been able to use it because there wasn't "extra" metal to make a flange out of. I was repairing where the metal would crack from stress or abuse. But I always thought lapping was possibly the pro way to do it until your vid. As usual you made your points very clearly and I could see if it had been available fallen into the trap too. The thing that saved me was ignorance of the process :) I couldn't really see your repair on the '57. I always loved the idea of staying away from bondo but thanks to you and others I see it's possible to do it now. Thanks for the vid.
What does it look like onthe inside??
WHEN IT COMES TO REPLACING A RUSTY FLOOR PAN, i THINK OVERLAPPING SHOULD BE FINE .. ESPECIALLY DUE TO THE EXTRA STRENGTH THE OVERLAP PROVIDES .. SILICONE UNDERNEATH AFTER WELDING AND UNDERCOAT
Generally I would agree. If you aren't concerned with keeping things looking original, overlapping floor panels, maybe some inner structures or Firewalls is ok. Those areas are often overlapped already and as you said the added strength offsets the negative factors. Personally I primer in between the panels before overlapping, then weld it, paint it, and seam seal with a proper seam sealer to finish it off.
This was more so about body panel replacement such as fenders, door skins, etc. The longer original cut of the video made that more clear but was too long.
@@HotRodHippie thank you sir .. sorry for all caps .. I was ooutta control and didn't realize until after I typed all that .. lol .. CHEERS BROTHER!
You are the best man. I wish for you a great success cuz you are doing a very damn good job. Looking to see your future videos!
Thanj you very much. I really appreciate it.
Excellent video. Just subbed and thumbed and shared. Gotta question. Can I do an overlap joint using a fully fluxed surface and solder or a new high-tech brazing system to purge out all the air and moisture? I like the butt welding. I'm just curious as to what you think. Did I say excellent video? Well, excellent video.
This was great!
Not a welder, never welded, but I've an old Lada here with a holy floor. Literally the only weld I thought appropriate was the butt weld, so that's what's going to happen come hell or high water. Well hopefully not high water, the welder wouldn't work then.
Enjoyed that, thank you!
i started back in early 70's we never dreamed of butting panels then,everything was lapped and brazed together. dont know as i ever had a comeback. then mig come along. i remember buying one of those flange tools,flanged it and mig welded it.it was the worst job i ever did. throw them flangers away,learn to butt weld or if you have to lap just bring together tight and weld it. oh that customer that i did that flange weld,that was my car,thank goodness,still in the garage,looks good 30 yrs later,but i know whats lurking behind that paint.lol
I'm agree with you
Thanks for the thorough explanation. You answered a lot of questions I had about overlapping joints.
I just started watching and this guy knows what he's talking about. This ain't no garage screwball tripping over air hoses. Let's listen.
My 64 F100 thanks you.
Couldn't have said it better Alan.
Thank you
Explain your technique and machine for the weld shown at 8:15. Thanks.
I'll give you a quick brief here but suffice to say I will be doing a few videos on the topic eventually.
That specific process was:
-Clamped in place after file fitting.
-Tacked every 3/4" along the entire Seam.
-Lightly hammer and dollied to make sure everything was properly aligned.
-Welded 3/4"
-Lightly hammered to maintain shape.
-Repeated continually for hours as the entire weld was well over 100".
That isn't my preferred method but it sure looks looked pretty.
@@HotRodHippie cant wait for more in depth videos on this process!
I like over lapping and using right angle breaks on joints to add structure. I always use weld thru primer and seam sealer if this happens. Body panels however....never.
I would have thought that overlapping would be easier and stronger, however, I personally would rather replace the entire panel than weld the crap out of it. I also use a weld through primer or a weldable 2 part epoxy (or panel adhesive) to prevent the metal from rusting where there is an overlap.
Thank you, my argument too! My eyes were opened about 15years ago, been painting for 40 years.
Thank you. Now I am convinced of butt welding my VW T2b :-)
Great video and advise for someone getting into welding panels on my cars
Thank you very much 👍