Oops, we got the wrong Muhammad! It's Umar!

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ธ.ค. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 429

  • @noelcayer3599
    @noelcayer3599 3 ปีที่แล้ว +41

    I found Jay Smith, (and a few others) some years ago when I went in search of a Prophet Muhammed. My own search came up with a King Muhammad in 5thC but only a small sentence mentioning him. I found of all the battles in the ME no mention of a Prophet Muhammed, Islam or Muslims during this era. I found Persians invaded and conquered only to assume Islam originated from Persia.The Romans mapped the area (Saudi) and no Mecca listed. Jay has brought this together in easy to understand teachings. It's absolutely fascinating all these great works by historians, etc exposing the centuries of holes in the narrative. Can't get enough, love history. All this has brought me closer to my Christian faith, journey, understanding, knowledge as well!

    • @ymir405
      @ymir405 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      A 5th century King Muhammad? What is the ME? Where did you find all this info?

    • @pfanderfilms
      @pfanderfilms  3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      Noel, could you write below where the source is for the 5th century "King Muhammad" that you found? We'd love to include it in our growing material searching for him, or at least people who used his name. This is an exciting find! For Ymir above, ME means 'Middle East'.

    • @ymir405
      @ymir405 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@pfanderfilms Thank you sir.

    • @sirunikunushik7735
      @sirunikunushik7735 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      It's interesting that non-muslims trying so hard to find Mohammad and his companions in 6th or 7th century while Muslims don'rt even care. I myself reading and researching lots of Arab and Persian historians and literature from 6th and 7th centuries to find prophet Mohammad and his companions Abu Baker, Umar, Uthman, Ali and his sons Hassan and Hussain. So far not even a hint.

    • @ymir405
      @ymir405 3 ปีที่แล้ว +10

      ​@@sirunikunushik7735 Exactly, because Muslims are afraid of what they won't find if they look. They are happy with whatever was approved by the Abbasids and nothing else matters. It tells you that they know the real founders of their religion are the Abbasids who unlike the 325 Council of Nicea, no one ever claimed the Abbasids to have been guided by any Prophetic Spirit. In other words, they know that their religion was established by secular men who no one claims were under any guidance from God's Spirit.

  • @Speakers154
    @Speakers154 3 ปีที่แล้ว +38

    I better add a note here, so people follow what we're doing. First, the standard Islamic narrative about Muhammad is a fictional biography. Second, to make that narrative, there were many sources and influences, so therefore the result is a composite narrative. Third, some of these sources are historical people.
    As the SIN, talks about a Muhammad who is the founder, who began from 610 while in the cave of Hira, then there Iyas fits that component. He fits with Al Tabari and Chinese sources that talk about a king given weapons in a cave by Khusroe. He is king crucially when the Tayaye revolution starts in 618, but then the trail runs dry after that.
    Crucially, the 634 references to a Muhammad/prophet refer to him as linked to the Tai, just as Iyas was. But Umar also is linked to the Tayaye. He also reigned reigned from the year of the first sighting/ reference to a Muhammad and a prophet armed with a sword, in both cases in Palestine. This historical component is distinct from the founder component of Iyas but is more important as this is a direct link to when the name Muhammad was used.
    It is messy and murky but I hope people appreciate that there is a process by which I'm trying to unravel each component. And here again, I want to emphasise it was Joe from Red Judaism who got this first, coming at it from a different angle to me.

    • @Bytheirfruitsshall
      @Bytheirfruitsshall 3 ปีที่แล้ว +11

      Yes he can derive insight from the twists and turns of the Sabbatean histories

    • @Speakers154
      @Speakers154 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      @Kilian Klaiber Unfortunately, the titles don't always reflect my exact point. They are designed to be catchy but subtle points can be lost in the mix. Glad to clear that up.

    • @m1self01
      @m1self01 3 ปีที่แล้ว +6

      @John Wick Good question, although I would like to know what the basis is for saying that it is a name?

    • @m1self01
      @m1self01 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      @John Wick I did not take a position in this case so don't say that I claim something. The fact that (non) muslim sources use it does not nessecarily mean it is a name. In the case of Jesus is there any reason to believe that Jesus was not His name? I do not know of any. The same criterion applies to Mohammed. As long as there are no reasons to doubt it, it should have the benifit of the doubt (although it is still uncertain in a sence). Once an other thing (for example a title) explains more then the name does, we should take that thing as the basisinstead of the name (There are more explenation-principles but I think you know what I intend to say). I think therefore that the title-principle should not be taken as certain but as a nessecary thing to get a this hypotheses. Once that principle can be disproven this hypothesis falls. I agree on the facts that an historical example of 'the blesses one' for another person would strengthen the case for this hypothesis, but the lack thereof does not disprove it because titles where the norm, not the exception.

    • @m1self01
      @m1self01 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @John Wick That is why I think jay and mel have to show better why the title usage is legitimate. That is why I said it is a good question. But it does not neccesarilly disproves it. It makes it weaker. What sources do you refer to?

  • @Zebred2001
    @Zebred2001 3 ปีที่แล้ว +16

    Another great video Mel and Jay! This is a lot to take in. I hope you do a new series going over all these new revelations step by step explaining north and northwest Arabian history from the late Byzantine and Sassanian periods on. It'd be a big help!

  • @justaminute3111
    @justaminute3111 3 ปีที่แล้ว +11

    Watching with bated breath. Travails of breaking new ground in historical research. Even your dead-ends are illuminating neglected areas of world history.

  • @josephrobi6806
    @josephrobi6806 3 ปีที่แล้ว +27

    Excellent 👌

  • @gazgaffa8437
    @gazgaffa8437 3 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    Your doing sterling work fellas, your much appreciated, all the very best to you.

  • @rabukkayeshua2479
    @rabukkayeshua2479 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Thank you Mel & Jay for adding knowledges of Izlamp scams... 🙏💐🎖

  • @MAX-tw3qz
    @MAX-tw3qz 3 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    Who can get enough of this ?
    It's excellent to have a very different way to unveil Islam, so far removed from Muhammadans themselves as not to become too personal but purely historically, finding the well of truth through the mirage.

  • @CuriousDuffer
    @CuriousDuffer 3 ปีที่แล้ว +11

    I'm glad to hear that Mel and Joe are back on the same page with one another. And for as much as it may have been a false trail the life and times of Ilyas Ibn Qabisa, Khusro, and Babar in addition the Chinese sources gave us a huge insight into just how divorced the SIN is from the history of the region. The composite character still remains a composite character, but Umar having that particular title still leaves so much to be discovered. We get back to the issues of abrahamism, sadducism, and monophysm plus many extant pagan beliefs being active in the region. Perhaps this is why there is so much material post hoc about being against the pagans and those who take partners with 'the god' (title) likely a Nabatean diety as well as others who had been repurposed. Good stuff Mel!

    • @AndiWidjaja
      @AndiWidjaja 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      I am not convinced that umar called himself with that title. I am more in agreement with Murad who said that Mo 'The Praised One' that was mentioned 4 time in the entire quran, was actually referred to Jesus. It's not exactly a title but a verb. Christians use the expression 'Praised be to God' all the times.

    • @Bytheirfruitsshall
      @Bytheirfruitsshall 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      If you profiled Islamic origins:
      The themes would be:
      Rebellion
      Resentment of underdog/vassal status
      Younger brother syndrome
      An obsession with numbers in this case 1
      Reductionism
      Megalomania
      Paranoia
      Orphan's secret
      bloodline
      Orphan's actual superiority
      Glibness
      Dissolution
      Etc

    • @ymir405
      @ymir405 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      Yeah, all that refutation for nothing. I can't see the video now because it has been taken down but if I remember correctly the points were:
      1) Joe is a liar because Muhammad is Iyas
      2) Joe is a liar because Harran was the pilgrimage site
      3) Joe is a liar because he sees Judaism everywhere
      Now we see Joe was right because Iyas is not Muhammad, Harran is not the pilgrimage site and Judaism is everywhere. So what was the point of all the bad-mouthing?
      The moral of the story is, when you get angry at someone who claims something you never heard of keep it private and don't start a personal campaign to discredit someone, they might be closer to the truth than you know.

    • @mindscape1621
      @mindscape1621 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Mel is christian. Joe is jewish. They will never get along. Are you out of the loop?

    • @_John_P
      @_John_P 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@mindscape1621 You see religion in everything, people don't get along with a lot of Muslims because of what they say and think, whilst other Muslims are perfectly fine to befriend, although the Quran forbids Muslims to befriend anyone that's not Muslim.

  • @leedza
    @leedza ปีที่แล้ว

    I love how you guys keep plowing at the research and refining the picture as go along. In the end i can see a fascinating book on the trail of evidence you've brought to light.

  • @theoldone485
    @theoldone485 3 ปีที่แล้ว +23

    The plot thickens. It gets curiouser and curiouser.

    • @yakovmatityahu
      @yakovmatityahu 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      I guess this is the oldest church in United Kingdom right?

    • @abashedsanctimony154
      @abashedsanctimony154 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      @@yakovmatityahu it is difficult to decipher which is the first church in England. Pelagius was converted but he also left England, and ended up in Israel. So this is closer to the call that Revelation reveals us, that God calls us to Himself. Which at the time most people believed it is to Jeru'Salem, but it means to the God of Jeru'Salem. And in spiritual terms, means to Yeshua the Messiah not to Israel literally. (This is how we as Christians know who are legitimate believers or not. God calls All men to Himself, not to a place on earth.)
      This would have been as a result of the Disciples efforts through spreading the Gospel and converting others under the roman persecution, that people were hearing of Christianity. JEWS persecution and Gentiles for having a religion (it was almost unheard of to be killed for religion in those days, unless it was for a pagan sacrifice)
      We cannot be sure that they were called "catholic" church at the time, but there were catholic churches that appeared rather early which is why the Early church father's provided us with writings against the heretics. Irenaeus wasn't a catholic as many would lead you to believe; he was against the roman catholics.. Most likely due to persecution naturally. James reveals this.
      "2 Consider it nothing but joy, my [b]brothers and sisters, whenever you fall into various trials. 3 Be assured that the testing of your faith [through experience] produces endurance [leading to spiritual maturity, and inner peace]. 4 And let endurance have its perfect result and do a thorough work, so that you may be perfect and completely developed [in your faith], lacking in nothing.” (1:2-4)
      This is the faith that leads to distinguish a false religion from a true one. Catholicism was merely based on the old paganism and included all the ancient babylonian rituals. Therefore catholicism is not the original church. Catholic means universal, but as always it's a corrupt universal group. Those who are converted into a religion, not to The Christian faith. There were underground Christian churches and they were not marked in their origination. So it is ambiguous at best. But many churches can have believers, but they are not distinguished by denomination or religion, but of the Holy Spirit. Which is why most named religions cannot be true Religions as labeled.

  • @John-ni1lt
    @John-ni1lt ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Nothing wrong with admitting mistakes. Excellent work by Mel, Murad, Jay....and all others.

  • @dilshadjanrakhmatov1618
    @dilshadjanrakhmatov1618 2 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Dr Jay,was Iyas ibn Qabisah (Muhammad) born in Iraq in 570 AD and he died in Medina in 644 AD

  • @greatbingus
    @greatbingus 3 ปีที่แล้ว +14

    Always learning new things!

  • @pharsight8928
    @pharsight8928 3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Mel excellent study, certainly it worth the years of your research, God bless you. Jay as usual amazing.

  • @bijusamuel1687
    @bijusamuel1687 3 ปีที่แล้ว +10

    God bless you guys.

  • @sirupate
    @sirupate 2 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    What has happened to Sneakers Corner?

  • @krazy3ify
    @krazy3ify 3 ปีที่แล้ว +12

    Dr Jay Smith, you are doing exactly what needs to be done ! The very fact that they call u hate preacher proves Islam false.

    • @HalalBaconator
      @HalalBaconator 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @Forgiving Fragrance Aaaawww is your little world crushing down?! You poor little lost soul 😘

    • @HalalBaconator
      @HalalBaconator 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @Forgiving Fragrance Care to elaborate ?

  • @jeneb52
    @jeneb52 3 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Another great video about the discovery!

  • @johndansie6186
    @johndansie6186 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Hey guys can you comment on Shabir Alys video of 4 weeks ago that tried to debunk Dan Gibsons work

  • @user-yz1dl3eu8l
    @user-yz1dl3eu8l 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Mel, one good ad, and you buy the product. 😁Who has invented ads? 😁😁😁

  • @Iamyinkadavies
    @Iamyinkadavies 3 ปีที่แล้ว +22

    May the veils on billions of people be obliterated so they can see how much destruction this has caused them

    • @rabukkayeshua2479
      @rabukkayeshua2479 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Amen🙏

    • @dreamdiction
      @dreamdiction 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Yinka that's what Muslims say about Americans.

    • @valeriesotiropoulos9720
      @valeriesotiropoulos9720 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Amen🙏✝️

    • @Bytheirfruitsshall
      @Bytheirfruitsshall 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@dreamdiction
      All we actually hear is
      the mob chanting
      Death to "Amrreeca"

    • @sirunikunushik7735
      @sirunikunushik7735 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@dreamdiction Is that why millions risking their life to get in to the Western countries borders?

  • @FaithRationale
    @FaithRationale 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    It's good to always seek the Truth and in our search for Truth we can have different perspective and the Goal is to get the perspective of Truth.

  • @RoarT19
    @RoarT19 3 ปีที่แล้ว +23

    Day by Day
    Islam is showing 🏳🏳🏳

    • @Bytheirfruitsshall
      @Bytheirfruitsshall 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      An improvement on their black flag of piracy tho ☠

    • @thepoorsultan5112
      @thepoorsultan5112 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Day by Day
      Jay smith is showing his blatant lies

    • @RoarT19
      @RoarT19 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@thepoorsultan5112
      Kiddo.
      Historically
      Islam fails miserably
      Even a small jewish child knows
      There was no Al Aqsa at 600 A.D

    • @RoarT19
      @RoarT19 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @hikmah bersama
      Kiddo
      You dont know anything about the Scripture
      Read
      John 10:14-18
      He have power over life and death
      He didn't Beg kid
      He is fulfilling the prophesy of
      Psalm 22
      Allah lost to a Jewish women
      When Muhammad was shouting for
      Help
      For
      3 years
      Lord Jesus is in Heaven
      Allah is Muhammad
      Hikhmah you have is fit for nothing
      Grow up and read

    • @RoarT19
      @RoarT19 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @hikmah bersama
      Muhammad begged Lollah aka Allah
      Where did she go for 3 years ??
      Muhammad is proved to be a false prophet by Quran and sahih Haddiths
      Alah proves Muhammad is a false prophet
      *Quran 69 ; 44 to 46* 🧐🧐
      And if Muhammad made any false saying about us , we would have seized him and cut of his *Aorta*
      *Sahih al-Bukhari 4428*
      Narrated `Aisha:
      The Prophet (ﷺ) in his ailment in which he died, used to say, "O `Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison."
      وَقَالَ يُونُسُ عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ، قَالَ عُرْوَةُ قَالَتْ عَائِشَةُ ـ رضى الله عنها ـ كَانَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَقُولُ فِي مَرَضِهِ الَّذِي مَاتَ فِيهِ ‏ "‏ يَا عَائِشَةُ مَا أَزَالُ أَجِدُ أَلَمَ الطَّعَامِ الَّذِي أَكَلْتُ بِخَيْبَرَ، فَهَذَا أَوَانُ وَجَدْتُ انْقِطَاعَ أَبْهَرِي مِنْ ذَلِكَ السَّمِّ ‏"‏‏.‏
      Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 4428In-book reference : Book 64, Hadith 450USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 5, Book 59, Hadith 713 (deprecated numbering scheme)
      sunnah.com/bukhari/64/450
      Sunan Abu dawood 4512 and 4513
      sunnah.com/abudawud/41/20
      *Sunan Abi Dawud 4513*
      Narrated Ibn Ka'b b. Malik:
      On the authority of his father: Umm Mubashshir said to the Prophet (ﷺ) during the sickness of which he died: What do you think about your illness, Messenger of Allah (ﷺ)? I do not think about the illness of my son except the poisoned sheep of which he had eaten with you at Khaybar. The Prophet (ﷺ) said: And I do not think about my illness except that. This is the time when it cut off my aorta.
      Abu Dawud said: Sometime 'Abd al-Razzaq transmitted this tradition, omitting the link of the Companion, from Ma'mar, from al-Zuhri, from the Prophet (ﷺ), and sometimes he transmitted it from al-Zuhri from 'Abd al-Rahman b. Ka'b b. Malik, 'Abd al-Rahman mentioned that Ma'mar sometimes transmitted the tradition in a mursal form (omitting the link of the Companion), and they recorded it. And all this is correct with us. 'Abd al-Razzaq said: When Ibn al-Mubarak came to Ma'mar, he transmitted the traditions in a musnad form (with a perfect chain) which he transmitted as mauquf traditions (statements of the Companions and not of the Prophet).
      Grade: Sahih in chain (Al-Albani) صحيح الإسناد (الألباني)حكم :
      Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 4513In-book reference : Book 41, Hadith 20English translation : Book 40, Hadith 4499
      ثُمَّ لَقَطَعْنَا مِنْهُ ٱلْوَتِينَ
      (أَبْهَرِي,
      وتين (wateen) and ابهر (abhar)
      أَبْهَر ( اسم ): شِرْيانٌ أَوُرْطَى
      [abhar (noun): artery aorta]
      aorta - main artery through which blood is carried from the left side of the heart
      And this is the meaning of wateen:
      وَتِين ( اسم ): شِرْيانٌ أوُرْطِيّ
      [wateen (noun): artery aorta]
      aorta
      If we search for the English word "aorta" we find exactly two translations to Arabic. And they are wateen and abhar:
      aorta ( noun ): main artery through which blood is carried from the left side of the heart
      أبْهَر ؛ وَتِين
      [abhar, wateen]
      Abhar does not mean shortness of breath. The word buhir (بُهِر) means to be out of breath but the word abhar (أَبْهَر) means aorta
      The article uses three words for aorta: abhar (ابهر), wateen (وتين) and aorta (أورطي).
      www.almaany.com/en/dict/ar-en/%D9%88%D8%AA%D9%8A%D9%86/
      🤷‍♂️
      Allah exposed himself that he is Not God
      Allah says he will protect Muhammad
      *Quran 5 ; 67*
      *Quran 52 : 48* 🌋🌋🤭👀👀💤💤💤
      Poor Allah Got
      Exposed
      In
      *Sunan ibn maaja 1622*
      sunnah.com/urn/1289720
      Aishah said:
      “I never saw *anyone suffer more pain than the Messenger of Allah*
      👇👇👇👇
      Where did *Quran 52 ; 48* and
      *Quran 5 ; 67* Go ?
      (ﷺ).”
      حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ نُمَيْرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا مُصْعَبُ بْنُ الْمِقْدَامِ، حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ، عَنِ الأَعْمَشِ، عَنْ شَقِيقٍ، عَنْ مَسْرُوقٍ، قَالَ قَالَتْ عَائِشَةُ مَا رَأَيْتُ أَحَدًا أَشَدَّ عَلَيْهِ الْوَجَعُ مِنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ ‏.‏
      Grade: *Sahih* (Darussalam)
      Sunnah.com reference : Book 6, Hadith 190English reference : Vol. 1, Book 6, Hadith 1622Arabic reference : Book 6, Hadith 1690
      ________________________________________
      *Sahih al bukhari 2588*
      sunnah.com/bukhari/51/22
      *Sahih al-Bukhari 2588*
      Narrated Az-Zuhri:
      Ubaidullah bin `Abdullah told me that `Aisha had said, "When the Prophet (ﷺ) became sick and his condition became serious, he requested his wives to allow him to be treated in my house, and they allowed him. He came out leaning on two men while his feet were dragging on the ground. He was walking between Al-`Abbas and another man." 'Ubaidullah said, "When I informed Ibn `Abbas of what `Aisha had said, he asked me whether I knew who was the second man whom `Aisha had not named. I replied in the negative. He said, 'He was `Ali bin Abi Talib."
      حَدَّثَنَا إِبْرَاهِيمُ بْنُ مُوسَى، أَخْبَرَنَا هِشَامٌ، عَنْ مَعْمَرٍ، عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ، قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي عُبَيْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، قَالَتْ عَائِشَةُ ـ رضى الله عنها ـ لَمَّا ثَقُلَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَاشْتَدَّ وَجَعُهُ اسْتَأْذَنَ أَزْوَاجَهُ أَنْ يُمَرَّضَ فِي بَيْتِي، فَأَذِنَّ لَهُ، فَخَرَجَ بَيْنَ رَجُلَيْنِ، تَخُطُّ رِجْلاَهُ الأَرْضَ، وَكَانَ بَيْنَ الْعَبَّاسِ، وَبَيْنَ رَجُلٍ آخَرَ‏.‏ فَقَالَ عُبَيْدُ اللَّهِ فَذَكَرْتُ لاِبْنِ عَبَّاسٍ مَا قَالَتْ عَائِشَةُ، فَقَالَ لِي وَهَلْ تَدْرِي مَنِ الرَّجُلُ الَّذِي لَمْ تُسَمِّ عَائِشَةُ قُلْتُ لاَ‏.‏ قَالَ هُوَ عَلِيُّ بْنُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ‏.‏
      Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 2588In-book reference : Book 51, Hadith 22USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 3, Book 47, Hadith 761 (deprecated numbering scheme)
      *Question*
      If Muhammad is in Allahs Eyes and Protection
      According to
      *Quran 52 ; 48*
      *quran 8:9*
      *quran 3:165*
      ??????
      How come
      Allah allow this to happen to Muhammad
      For 3 Years ??
      Was Allah blind and Deaf ??
      Poor Allah Got
      Exposed
      In
      Sunan ibn maaja 1622
      sunnah.com/urn/1289720
      *He was Shouting in Pain
      For Three Years
      In Allahs Eyes*
      *What was Allahs Eyes Doing For 3 Years* ??
      *Sahih al bukhari 2588*
      sunnah.com/bukhari/51/22
      Muhammad Remained paralyzed for
      3 years in Allahs Eyes
      Where did Allahs
      *Quran 5 ; 67*(i will protect him)
      &
      *Quran 52 : 48*( He is always in allahs Eyes)
      Go ???
      Now read this and say my Friend ...
      Can you take Allah or Muhammad seriously???

  • @user-yz1dl3eu8l
    @user-yz1dl3eu8l 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    4:30 Why searching a character that fits the 'Muhammad' of the Muslim narrative? What's the point? This character has written down the Quran? That's why you search him? Why do you need absolutely to replace him? Is this character specifically needed? For what exactly? The war vs the Persians? There is no need. The war vs the Romans? Same. Who has seen 'Muhammad' or his alter ego in the 7th c.? No one.

  • @SaintPhilis37
    @SaintPhilis37 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Youse Guys rock.

  • @olafshomkirtimukh9935
    @olafshomkirtimukh9935 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Great detective work, Mel, applied to hoary history! It looks likely that, while not so bold as to surmise that Umar & Muhammad were the same person, even some olden scholars had seen the affinities between the two characters. In Rev. Thomas Patrick Hughes' 1885 Dictionary of Islam (which draws heavily from Sir William Muir's works on early Islamic history), "Umar" is presented "as the real founder of the religious and political power of Islam"; we further read, on p.372, that "Umar was a bold impulsive spirit, the very man needed to give strength to a cause, one who in a remarkable manner left the impress of his character [...] the stamp of his fierce warlike spirit upon Islam".

  • @simonhengle8316
    @simonhengle8316 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Fabulous stuff

  • @senecaknowsbest8380
    @senecaknowsbest8380 3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    The Joseph Smith of his day. Wouldn’t be surprised to learn there were many claiming to be prophets. Those kinds of people are everywhere. Conmen.

    • @mustafamajid7794
      @mustafamajid7794 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      There were many messiahs during the days of Jesus…like Simon Magus, another Hellenic Jew from Caeseria and he also claimed to raise the dead…its like messiahs all over the place…you just apply bias and when you make a mistake you really dont apologise you just bend the theory

  • @henryelemuo6785
    @henryelemuo6785 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Where are all the Islamic scholars to challenge these findings? This is worrisome

  • @parvanehnicholson
    @parvanehnicholson 3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Oh my my, Wow! To GOD be the glory. Mel and Jay you are a truly send by ALMIGHTY ✝️ to expose the evil religion. As a Muslim convert I thank you from the bottom of my heart. ❤️ May The HOLY SPIRIT protect you and keep you 100s years for us. ✝️🙏🏻

  • @Bytheirfruitsshall
    @Bytheirfruitsshall 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    If l may chip in with an analogy from ancient chinese history (I've mentioned it before but the context is apposite now)
    The subject being, how texts are often accretions formed on an imperative core.
    The I ching was a collection of oracles, (on turtle shells and yarrow stalks in that case) This particular collection stems from a time oracles were consulted by an "underdog" army.
    It was only after victory that these were collated together (in non chronological order) and commented on and then in turn that expanded upon by philosophers, and now it's a book.
    If the Chinese had been deistic, it could have formed the text of the religion of a creator God rather than being seen as the impersonal "mandate
    of heaven"
    The letters at beginning of the suras are from the oracular readings. The meanings of the "stand alone letters" werr read as individual signs.
    We all are familiar with the breast plate of the High priest etc and the strictures for recognising Prophecy in general. The hidden bed rock of the koran is of a different origin.

  • @joek8948
    @joek8948 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hi Jay, u shud set yr split screen aspect ratio to avoid having the black areas on the top & bottom on your screen.

    • @ymir405
      @ymir405 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      How do you do that?

  • @hbg5942
    @hbg5942 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    please do a full vedio on this subject

  • @mariongranbruheim4090
    @mariongranbruheim4090 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    🤷🏼‍♀️ Who, pray tell, are we supposed to make fun of now?
    😈😼

  • @carolgebert7833
    @carolgebert7833 11 หลายเดือนก่อน

    What about the Battle of Yarmouk? Did it actually happen? Or was it the battle of Umar at Gaza in 634?

  • @elederiruzkin8835
    @elederiruzkin8835 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    2) The Doctrina Iacobi, written in 634 AD, without naming anyone, refers to a supposed 'prophet' who is armed with a sword, who holds the "Keys to Paradise" (taken from Matthew 16:9), and is the "Christ who is yet to come"; thus suggesting that this prophet, who must have been Umar, was a Christian, though living in Iraq once again.
    *Couldn't it be a Messianic Jew?*

  • @ralphcravey4904
    @ralphcravey4904 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Maybe Thomas the Presbyter confused Umar with Muhammad. He may have heard the invading Arabs say "Muhammad" so many times that he thought that the leader of the invasion was Muhammad and not Umar. I have confused people before, too. I have seen other people mistakenly think that someone's name is such and such and later find out that that person is someone else. It happens.
    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. There are historical persons who have left behind little contemporary evidence for their existence and no one questions whether or not they really existed.
    I have seen something in the Quran about a she-camel. Maybe the surah about the camel is that one. The names of the surahs were created later.
    I think that Surah 112 is a Christian poem about the Holy Spirit. Ahad means "one of", that is, one of Three. The Holy Spirit neither begets nor is begotten. God the Holy Spirit is "ahad" (one of Three Persons).
    I have seen some evidence of Orthodox Christian influence in the Quran. I know a deacon in the Orthodox Church who started reading the Quran many years ago and said he kept finding things in the Quran that we find in our Church tradition. Some of those passages that Protestants like David Wood and others ridicule make sense to us Orthodox.

    • @toomanymarys7355
      @toomanymarys7355 ปีที่แล้ว

      Thomas the Presbyter doesn't say Muhammad led them. Just that they were of Muhammad. Muhammad’s faction.

  • @johnclonch9344
    @johnclonch9344 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Great work!

  • @courag1
    @courag1 3 ปีที่แล้ว +34

    I find it interesting that the Bible talks about “the man of SIN”.

    • @sheikhboyardee556
      @sheikhboyardee556 3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      Looks like the Christians anticipated Muhammad.

    • @danielhagopian5150
      @danielhagopian5150 3 ปีที่แล้ว +6

      No doubt, islam is the antichrist beast

    • @courag1
      @courag1 3 ปีที่แล้ว +7

      @@danielhagopian5150 Actually there are two beasts which become friends. Once you identify one, finding the other is simple. Catholic Catechism 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
      With all the past inquisitions of the Catholic Church and its current pedophile scandals and the genocide currently exposed in Canada of the Residential school in which the “woman” which is a church in scripture, an evil unfaithful one (to the scriptures) who rides a beast (which is a secular power) and together they work together towards the same end: in this case, the genocide of the Original Peoples of Canada, this was directed at the children, forced to be educated by schools run by the Catholic Church. What is horrifying is that no matter what the Catholic Church does, people think that salvation is NOT IN JESUS ALONE, as scripture states, but that she in in charge of it, that everything Jesus did, all the grace, is dispensed by her, a harlot to God’s design and truth. Remember that Jesus had a little child sit on His lap and He said “whoever hurts a little child such as this, it would be better for them if a great millstone was hung about their neck and thrown into the sea.” There were thousands of Indian children killed. If one follows the work of Kevin Annett, he discovered the genocide but it was not until recently the extent of how many children were killed. The Indian families knew their children were taken from them and were not allowed to go home, not even for summer vacations. And sadly many died there, buried in unmarked graves. The mothers were required to have a Canadian doctor with them when they gave birth, these women would be places under anesthetic as for surgery despite it being a vaginal birth, only to wake up and find that they were robbed of ever having another child. They had had a hysterectomy.
      The press which now has acted in disinformation, did so as well then. That Indian children were dying and never coming home, large numbers went, and not all came home. Never a word.
      A conspiracy of silence.
      Most star systems are binary, in our sun it is thought it is binary too, one is a dark star, a brown dwarf, having an elliptical orbit to our own and when it comes near, earthquakes and natural disasters about, strange weather and in the past may have been the source of causing the worldwide flood. But they also are like Islam and Catholicism who orbit one another.
      If one does want to understand who significant this link is, consider that even though the Catholic Churches are being burned and vandalized and her priests killed and nuns raped, they stand still staunchly as partners with Islam. Protestants who hold to the Word of God, have anathema’s on our heads as the Council of Trent will never be rescinded.
      This is also why the West has not liking to end the problem of Islam militarily as the Catholic Church is so involved in our gov’t. Georgetown has a Catholic university right in Washington, DC. Many of our presidents, even the ones not outwardly Catholic have been educated by Jesuits.
      Yes, this woman rides the Beast (gov’ts of the world) but she also has a forever friendship with Islam who is so much more in the news bad, that she looks righteous by comparison.
      A wise person keeps an eye on both as it is like keeping an eye as the number of fulfillments of prophecy happen found partially in Revelation, count down.
      Every Priest is an Alter Christus, a replacement for Christ. Jesus said MANY would come in my name and deceive many. So many who have opened their eyes who are Catholics are coming out and to fill her numbers, the RCC is seeking converts mostly among those who know the Lord of Glory.

    • @williamgarayua5878
      @williamgarayua5878 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Dear@@danielhagopian5150 :
      The Armies of JIHAD loves common names and common use titles to be used as a Personal Name, and then, they forbid saying anything bad against a common title like "muhammad", what only means "blessed one".
      And the same thing happens with the common use word, "islam", properly translated as "SUBMISSION", and it only means the action of yielding to the will of another person, same as ENSLAVEMENT.🔻
      So, it is a crime commited by Social Media to block those telling TRUTH about any 'blessed one" or about anyone promoting "submission" to Anti Constitutional SUPREMACISM by Militarized JIHA, because it is TREASON against our FREEDOM and against our Sovereign Governments. ⚖️🌐🕊️🆚⚔️📗
      wgt

    • @hywel4605
      @hywel4605 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      sin is ancient babylonian or sumer for the moon

  • @AustinOKeeffe
    @AustinOKeeffe 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    I love the work in progress journey, like a detective looking for clues to the murderer. Just wondering why the case for Umar being Mohammed wasn't brought up a long time ago. Do the independent sources say that the'Mohammed' in Palestine around 636 CE was Umar or are you going by Islamic sources for his real name? And is there historical evidence that Umar was from the Iraq region?

    • @Speakers154
      @Speakers154 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Thanks Austin! The reason is many said "Ah well, just because Muhammad is mentioned in 634, it was the TAYAYE that was in existence after Muhammad had died in 632." That seemed reasonable and without much other evidence it was a dead end but other evidence emerged recently and when you piece it all together a different picture emerged. There is more coming in future parts to this video. jay ended the video on a cliffhanger but there is a host of surprises to come. I love this whole process precisely because it is like a murder mystery. :) It is a good analogy.

  • @arindamdas5421
    @arindamdas5421 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    What about the Maghazi documents? Which person is that referring to?

  • @preapple
    @preapple 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I know believe multiple people took the epithet of MHMD. Agreed umar is the guy who shows up in Gaza and Jerusalem. Abu Bakr and Qabisa were in Iraq region. Has anyone written a history of the tayye in tachkistan? Can Red Judaism point us to it?

  • @thewordistheonlytruth8784
    @thewordistheonlytruth8784 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    The sin naretive trys to hide the man of sin and the mistery babylon

  • @auliahanna7770
    @auliahanna7770 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    So this is mean that a man can't run away from their history but he can fix it

  • @dariusghodsi2570
    @dariusghodsi2570 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I wouldn't call the Iyas character adding to the composite necessarily a distraction, but rather a foundational element. This is like the Arabic King Arthur

  • @aevumcorvi2108
    @aevumcorvi2108 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    It is good Mel finally comes to consider Joe's idea to fit his present narrative.
    I say "present narrative" as a lot of time was lost. Emotions run between the lines and bad blood came between Joe and Mel during that time. Additionally, a lot of people were misled, as strongly as it were each were insisting they were right.
    This must be packaged carefully and delivered academically by Mel or Sneaker's Corner.

    • @Speakers154
      @Speakers154 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      What do you mean "finally comes to consider"? I've been considering it for 7 or 8 months. The evidence wasn't yet strong enough. "A lot of people were misled" How so? The logic behind it was sound but the problem is that a lot of 7th century sources DO put Muhammad as the first in the line of Arab kings before Abu Bakr. To overrule that, requires a lot of evidence. A conjectural argument was not enough. It wasn't at all a time wasted, we have made more progress in the past 2 years than most academics make in a lifetime. Lastly, bad blood? Joe made a hugely offensive attack on my character to which he has never apologised. That's not right and to dismiss it as bad blood is ridiculous. I can put my head on the pillow at night knowing I've done everything in my power to research Islam's origins in an honest way. There were a lot of spectators on the side of the pitch, who didn't roll up their sleeves but always had their advice from their comfy chaIrs. So maybe rather than criticising those actually doing something, you hold off making judgements when you don't know what actually happened.

  • @muezamueza2797
    @muezamueza2797 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Jhon of Damascus will always be a sharp thorn inside the eyes of Jay Smith and his ilk...hahaha
    The biggest earliest critique of Islam is John of Damascus or St. John of Damascus, also called Saint John Damascene, Latin Johannes Damascenus. He was born c. 675, Damascus and died December 4, 749, near Jerusalem (Eastern and Western feast day December 4)
    In his book The Fountain of Wisdom, St John of Damascus called Muslims “Saracens”, “Ishmaelites” and “Agarenes”, except that the “Saracens” designation might have been used earlier. All those names were pejorative.
    He specifically called Muhammad by name six times
    1) From that time (the reign of Heraclius) to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst.
    2) As has been related, this Mohammed wrote many ridiculous books, to each one of which he set a title.
    3) Mohammed had a friend named Zeid.
    4) This man had a beautiful wife with whom Mohammed fell in love
    5) Once, when they were sitting together, Mohammed said: ‘Oh, by the way
    6). Mohammed says that the Christ asked God for a table and that it was given Him
    How could a Christian Saint, who spent his earlier adult age in 7th century, a few decades after prophet death, vigorously assails Islam and Muhammad, but Muhammad didn’t exist.... ha ha ha.
    Notes :
    a) who is Heraclius?. He is a Roman emperor, who live in the 7th century. Mohammad write a letter to him. They both live in the 7th century..
    b) Jay Smith was lying when saying that there was a book in the quran called camel. This the saying of Jhon if Damaskus
    And again, in the book of The Heifer, [114] he says some other stupid and ridiculous things
    c) Jay use lie and deception to bring Muslims with a little knowledge of Islam to Christianity.

  • @thedude9024
    @thedude9024 9 หลายเดือนก่อน

    What is the source/hypothesis of Umar being Jewish and from Iraq? I would like the link please.

  • @carcaz4755
    @carcaz4755 3 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    The House with swords is house full of crime

    • @Bytheirfruitsshall
      @Bytheirfruitsshall 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      With one of the swords being The sword of Damocles

  • @tarnos4153
    @tarnos4153 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Robert Spencer must have problem finishing his new book with moving targets. 😂

    • @mindscape1621
      @mindscape1621 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

      He's too weak. He will never be on Joe's level. Ant compared to him.

    • @ymir405
      @ymir405 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@mindscape1621 Are you afraid of what would happen if he collaborated with Joe?

  • @michaels4255
    @michaels4255 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Did Priest (Presbyter) Thomas write in Greek or Aramaic?

  • @dilshadjanrakhmatov1618
    @dilshadjanrakhmatov1618 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Is it possible to have a son of Uthman and Ali Iyas ibn Qabisah....

  • @pascalwager4544
    @pascalwager4544 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Like Muhammad (the praised), Ali (the exalted) also sounds like a title. Even Ali's two sons seem to have titles for names Hassan (the good) and Husayn (the handsome).
    Abu Bakr is a kuniyah which translates to the father/ owner/ seller/ dealer of baby camel(s).
    There is a tribe Banu Bakr but I think, 'Abu' (father of) prefix wouldn't be used to show tribal affiliation.

  • @yakovmatityahu
    @yakovmatityahu 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Umar the Real Muhammed...

    • @mindscape1621
      @mindscape1621 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      We're all Muhammad.

    • @yakovmatityahu
      @yakovmatityahu 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@mindscape1621 lol i am not Muhammed i am Jacob(Yakov).

    • @mindscape1621
      @mindscape1621 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@yakovmatityahu ಠ‿ಠ

    • @mindscape1621
      @mindscape1621 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @James Danialy We all have a little darkness inside of us.

    • @ymir405
      @ymir405 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@mindscape1621 Muhammad was crucified and rose again in three days. Did you?

  • @crazylady201162
    @crazylady201162 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    even today we still have people claiming to be profits, and even though most all or all the predictions they claim came from god himself are wrong they point and say a certain someone is the anointed one. crazy is as crazy does

  • @danhub2330
    @danhub2330 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    It'd be interesting to see an Islamic historic perspective on the life of Jesus from the sources they have

  • @adamankind1onearthg
    @adamankind1onearthg 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    do we have theright Jesus? who is the greek jesus verses the jewish aramaic century

  • @glencampbell6217
    @glencampbell6217 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    AMEN HALLELUJAH GLORY TO GOD GREAT IS YOUR FAITHFULNESS TO ME IN THE MIGHTY NAME OF JESUS CHRIST 🙏🙏🙏🙏Each and every day, I do my best to share these awesome and powerful messages without fear and shame to the lost

  • @user-yz1dl3eu8l
    @user-yz1dl3eu8l 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    7:05 *Joe* :" Listen to me Mel!!! I know what you have to thought, let me bring you in what I think you have to thought and tell to your Christian audience: 'UMAR'!!!" Hahaha! Mel: ask yourself why the colleague of Joe did not respond to me last time.
    'Umar' of 'Mecca'? But 'Mecca' did not exist before Islam and you know it, then what 'Umar'?

  • @oprophetisfake9482
    @oprophetisfake9482 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    They should add that it's the Umar from Kufa and nothing to do with the supposed Umar that they believe lived in Mecca and Medina.

  • @RandomMoves923
    @RandomMoves923 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Daniel and the Revelation

  • @nickdixon8115
    @nickdixon8115 ปีที่แล้ว

    yea my guess is that like King Arthur is a mixture of knights and kings in the dark ages of Europe (Charlemagne being on example),
    There is most likely a solid person the Hadiths are based on. However, I think the figure of Muhammad is also based on different people.
    so Iyas Ibn Qabeshi and this Umar figure - may be each one contributed to the real Muhammad.
    is there anyway they are the same person? or is this definitely two diff people?
    however rather they are the same figure or separate this is what its starting to look like- abrogation. A single figure yet to be found in the historical record. However thanks to oral tradition many other figures lives and so forth being added to the story. so a conglomeration of folks from the 7th century AD.

    • @nickdixon8115
      @nickdixon8115 ปีที่แล้ว

      im a bit of an amateur at this- so i do have one question on this subject mater,
      are Umar I and Iyas two different people or is there a way this can be the same person? Because both sound a lot like the central figure of Islam.
      but yes, both could of been taken from too when the Abbasids made it all up. However the source material had to come from somewhere.
      Also there are mosques (not mecca and medina) that date back to AD 615 in north western Africa from what I looked up. So the original revelation (Quran) has to be somewhere. I know the 114 surah one the Muslims use today is a fabrication and was built over time.
      Even being very amateur the only part I could figure out that was original (using the Birmingham Quran and the Syro-Aramaic Quran book you advertise) was surah 20:1-8 been looking at this for a long time you wood and others working off a lot of info. and from what I can tell aside from that surah the rest was either from the Aramaic Quran that's about our Lord Jesus Christ or was written at a much later date and not by the actual prophet of Islam. 20:1-8 and that's about it. plus I know this is from a hadith that came years later but there is a place in those that said the Quran was something that can be memorized. so if is something that can be memorized it couldn't have been a book almost the size of our New Testament. It had to be something like a creed or something that's easy to memorize. Think about it.
      I know there's a lot more digging to do. However that's my part and take on it so far.

    • @nickdixon8115
      @nickdixon8115 ปีที่แล้ว

      I don't know Arabic - I will learn Aramic later so don't quote me i was just seeing what parts what parts.
      However, yes even on the Birmingham Quran there's evidence that it was written very differently so who knows what really is in those three surahs. Id have to get a translation either in Greek or English from the experts as of right now.

  • @sgt.grinch3299
    @sgt.grinch3299 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Work in progress is amazing line.

  • @MyDavidlynch
    @MyDavidlynch 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    He’s from Dublin -We expect a lot from a clever educated Dubliner !Listen carefully for any truth that will show Islam is false .

  • @itsmejones6023
    @itsmejones6023 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Prophet or not that is a direct reference to Mo in the timeline he was supposed to be in

    • @Speakers154
      @Speakers154 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      It is after the timeline actually.

  • @savior2899
    @savior2899 3 ปีที่แล้ว +13

    Just gone through the writings of st John of Damascus few days before , on islam and refuting it's lies/debates...
    Mohamad the false prophet gets revelation in sleep 🤩
    Waiting for more .....❤️

  • @asifbrettishmaelmakki9
    @asifbrettishmaelmakki9 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    10:06 red eye judasium Joe,says Abu Baker may be horiz the sixth(some named guy like that).
    Also with Abu Baka name,their are Two K sound in arab lingo.
    one Baka sound is like Al Bakara (The cow or goat in asian lingo)& and Abu Baka sideeq is spelt with that throat sounded K.
    The other Baka is with normal pronouced K ,as in valley of Bacca.

    • @asifbrettishmaelmakki9
      @asifbrettishmaelmakki9 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      St John of Damascus excerts lol,his words have to be taken as facts ✌️

  • @user-yz1dl3eu8l
    @user-yz1dl3eu8l 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    5:10 At last... Iyas b. Qabisa is not what you hold it was. I told you so at once one year ago. You lost one year. Now I wait to see which one you find to replace him. Rendezvous in one year, it 'll be 2 years lost.

  • @shadstla
    @shadstla 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Hello Jay! you will eventually to pay attention Daniel 11 & more important Revelation 9. In doing so have to apply to Islam, it talks about a prince at the head and that prince is Satan!

  • @davidchase1439
    @davidchase1439 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    so Umar historical Muhammed but he was blown up by The Kiran and Hadith and other traditions to being Prophet of Allah?

  • @davidchase1439
    @davidchase1439 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    So Umar was king over what was then Proto Islam?

  • @welkingunther6930
    @welkingunther6930 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Is there any way to certify the authenticity of muhamad's weapons in turkey?

  • @nazeemsultan123
    @nazeemsultan123 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    What happened in Nicea 325 and 380? Lol

    • @bebmorlaix1409
      @bebmorlaix1409 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      You have no idea right? Just look for it and you'll understand but stop listening to propaganda without fact checking it. The council of Nicea has nothing to do with what you are thinking of my friend. Look up by yourself.

    • @ymir405
      @ymir405 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@bebmorlaix1409 what is he thinking of?

    • @michaels4255
      @michaels4255 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Those councils are extremely well documented. We have the canons (laws or regulations) they produced, and the official minutes recorded at the time, and we know the names and usually the backgrounds of the major participants. Those councils were summoned by the Roman Emperor himself, who participated in them. There is nothing obscure about them.

    • @bebmorlaix1409
      @bebmorlaix1409 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      @@ymir405 Like every muslims victim of propaganda and don't look things by himself but prefer listen to liars. For exemple that the council of Nicea is where/when the trinity doctrine has been established.

  • @kaneinkansas
    @kaneinkansas 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    I was pointing you towards John of Damascus over a year ago. As I understood it, John’s father was a scholar and employee of Mauwiya’s. According to the SIN, Mauwiyah’s was Mohammed’s secretary, and also Abu Sufyan’s son. According to the SIN Abu Sufyan was the leader of Mecca who opposed Mohammed for nearly 20 years, the last 10 of which included war. Mauwiyah himself was said to have been born in Mecca around 600, so he would have been 10 or 12 years old when Mohammed started preaching, meaning he would have witnessed everything the standard narrative talks about. Becaue of Mauwiyah’s families opposition to Mohammed, we can assume that they did not like Mohammed, if he existed, because of the threat to trade. This dislike of Mohammed would have been enough to keep him off of currency until after the 2nd fitna.

  • @aaabrams1889
    @aaabrams1889 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    The Quran gives us, besides mentioning the name of the Holy Prophet (saw), a considerable amount of biographical information on his life and mission, for example:
    * he was the Messenger of Allah (Surah al-Fath, Ch.48: V.30),
    * a mercy for all peoples (Surah al-Anbiya, Ch.21: V.108),
    * a prophet like Moses (Surah al-Muzzammil, Ch.73: V.16),
    * he taught the oneness of God (Surah al-Ikhlas, Ch.112),
    * he criticised the ills of society (Surah al-Ma‘un, Ch.107),
    * he had a family (Surah al-Duha, Ch.93: V.9),
    * he was an orphan (V.7),
    * he discoursed with his religious opponents (Surah al-Baqarah, Ch.2: V.112),
    * he had a following (Surah al-Fath, Ch.48: V.30),
    * he was persecuted (Surah al-Hajj, Ch.22: V.40-41),
    * he migrated with a companion and sought refuge in a cave (Surah al-Taubah, Ch.9: V.40),
    * he was among the people of Yathrib (Medina) (Surah al-Ahzab, Ch.33: V.14),
    * he had to defend himself against attackers (V.10-46),
    * he had a victory in Badr and Hunayn (Surah Al-e-Imran, Ch.3: V.124 & Surah al-Taubah, Ch.9: V.25) and his followers swore allegiance to him under a tree near Mecca at one occasion (Surah al-Fath, Ch.48: V.19).
    These are only a few examples of the biographical information that the Holy Quran contains on the life of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (saw), making it one of the most important historical sources on the life of Mohammad (saw).
    The second oldest evidence found, thus far, on the existence of the Holy Prophet (saw) is interestingly a non-Muslim source. It is a note in a manuscript containing the gospels of Mark and Mathew. The manuscript is kept at the British Library under the shelf mark “BL ADD MSS 14461”. The author writes:
    “… and in January, they took the word for their lives [the sons of] Emesa, and many villages were ruined with killing by [the Arabs of] Muhammad [MÙÎmd] and a great number of people were killed and captives [were taken] from Galilee as far as Bēth […] and those Arabs pitched camp beside [Damascus] […] and we saw everywhere […] and olive oil which they brought and them. And on the t[wenty six]th of May went Sacellarius … cattle […] from the vicinity of Emesa and the Romans chased them […] and on the tenth [of August] the Romans fled from the vicinity of Damascus […] many [people] some 10,000. And at the turn of the year the Romans came; and on the twentieth of August in the year n[ine hundred and forty-]seven there gathered in Gabitha […] the Romans and great many people were killed of [the R]omans, some fifty thousand”. (Hoyland, Seeing Islam as others saw it, p.117)
    The year 947 AG (Alexandrian Era) in which the battle of Gabitha took place corresponds to the year 636 AD. The battle of Gabitha is known in Muslim sources as the Battle of Yarmuk (Andrew Palmer, The Seventh Century in the West-Syrian Chronicles, Liverpool [1993] p. 4), in which Khalidra bin Walid was commanding the Muslim troops (Tabari, Tarikh ar-Rusul wal-Muluk). With this decisive victory, a path was paved for further advancing in the Levant and eventually Egypt, which were very quickly conquered. The author seems to have lived in that period and may have witnessed the events. He wrote this note apparently knowing the historical significance of these unfolding events. This is one of the oldest dated historical sources mentioning the name of the Holy Prophetsa and was written only four years after his demise.
    Another dated Syriac manuscript was written by Thomas, the Presbyter, a Christian priest from the Levant. He writes:
    “AG 945, indiction VII: On Friday, 4 February, [i.e., 634 CE] at the ninth hour, there was a battle between the Romans and the Arabs of Muhammad [Syr. tayyaye d-Mhmt] in Palestine twelve miles east of Gaza.” (Hoyland, Seeing Islam as others saw it, p.120)
    Here, again, events taking place in Palestine and Syria are described by the author. The Arabs here are mentioned as the Arabs of Muhammad [tayyaye d-Mhmt] identifying them clearly as the followers of the Holy Prophet Muhammadsa. The year 945 corresponds to the year 634 or 12 Hijra, which suggests that merely two years after the demise of the Holy Prophet (saw), his name was known to this non-Muslim author.
    Around the year 660, the Armenian bishop and historian, Sebeos, writes more biographical details on the Holy Prophet (saw). Sebeos’ historical accounts were most probably written between 656 and 661 because he mentions in them the first civil war, the so-called first fitna, during the time of Muawiyyara. This means that these accounts were written around 30 years after the demise of the Holy Prophet (saw) at a time when many of the Companions (ra) were still alive. Sebeos writes:
    “In that period a certain one of them, a man of the sons of Ishmael named Mahmed, became prominent. A sermon about the Way of Truth, supposedly at God’s command, was revealed to them, and Mahmed taught them to recognise the God of Abraham, especially since he was informed and knowledgeable about Mosaic history. Because the command had come from on High, he ordered them all to assemble together and to unite in faith. Abandoning the reverence of vain things, they turned toward the living God, who had appeared to their father Abraham. Mahmed legislated that they were not to eat carrion, not to drink wine, not to speak falsehoods, and not to commit adultery. He said: God promised that country to Abraham and to his son after him, for eternity. And what had been promised was fulfilled during that time when God loved Israel. Now, however, you are the sons of Abraham, and God shall fulfill the promise made to Abraham and his son on you. Only love the God of Abraham, and go and take the country which God gave to your father Abraham. No one can successfully resist you in war, since God is with you.” (ibid.)
    Sebeos gives us, although still very sketchy, more information about the events taking place in Arabia and the new religion, showing very clearly that people outside of Arabia were familiar with the new religion and the new prophet who had appeared among the Arabs. They even knew some basic information about his teachings.
    Ref: www.alhakam.org/historicity-of-the-holy-prophet-s-a/

    • @aaabrams1889
      @aaabrams1889 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      The next interesting evidence mentions the Holy Prophet (saw) indirectly. It is a papyrus letter sent by a Muslim administrator in Egypt to one of his subordinate officials, admonishing him to be mindful of his duties, saying:
      “In the name [of God] the Merciful, the Compassionate. From [Bayyan ibn] Qays to Yazid ibn al-Aswad and ‘Ubayd All[ah] ibn […]. Pea[ce] upo[n you. I praise God beside Whom] there is no other god. God does not like wrongdoing or corruption and as regards you, I did not appoint you to a job for you to act sinfully and behave unjustly in it […]. That which you will be sorry for and will suffer for is […to you]. […] and [… ] taking possession. Indeed, your way of thinking is despicable, (namely) that […] and you take the (financial) worth of it, even though I have […], for as regards Yazid ibn Fa‘id there is not due to him […] due to him payment, and the people of Nessana have the protection of God and the protection of His mess[eng]er. So do not reckon that we acquiesce to your corruption and injustice in respect of it.” (R Hoyland, The Earliest Attestation Of The Dhimma Of God And His Messenger And The Rediscovery Of P Nessana 77 (60s AH / 680 CE) in: B Sadeghi, AQ Ahmed, A Silverstein, R Hoyland, Islamic Cultures, Islamic Contexts - Essays In Honor Of Professor Patricia Crone, Brill [2015])
      The phrase “protection of God and the protection of His messenger” (dhimmat Allah wa-dhimmat rasulihi) is a very common phrase that we also find in other Islamic sources. It is reported to have been used in many of the letters the Holy Prophet (saw) sent to different tribes and kings (Bayhaqi, Sunan al Kabir lil Bayhaqi, Bab hukm al-jizya). Also it is reported in a very famous Hadith of Bukhari:
      “Whoever prays like us and faces our qibla and eats our slaughtered animals is a Muslim and is under Allah’s and His Prophet’s protection [dhimmatu Allahi wa-dhimmatu rasulihi]. So do not betray Allah by betraying those who are in His protection.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Bab fadhl istiqba al-qibla)
      This letter from Egypt interestingly also shows that much emphasis was laid on good governance during the early Islamic period. Was someone found ignoring or disregarding their duties, they were very harshly admonished and threatened with severe punishment. This piece of papyrus is dated to 60 AH, just 30 years after the demise of the Holy Prophet (saw) and is one of the oldest existing Islamic sources of the world.

    • @aaabrams1889
      @aaabrams1889 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Till present, the oldest discovered coin mentioning the name of the Holy Prophet (saw) is from 66 AH. It is a dirham by Abdul-Malik ibn Abdullah, the Governor of Persia, during the short reign of Hazrat Abdullahra bin Zubair. The Arabic inscription on the side of the coin reads, “bismillah Muhammad Rasul Allah”, translating as, “In the name of Allah, Muhammad is the prophet of Allah” (H Gaube: Arabosasanidische Numismatik [1973] Handbücher Der Mittelasiatischen Numismatik, Vol. 2, Klinkhardt & Biermann: Braunschweig, p. 62).
      From 71 AH Egypt, we come across an Umayyad period tombstone from Aswan. It reads:
      “In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate. The greatest calamity of the people of Islam [ahl al-Islam] is that which has [be]fallen them on the death of Muhammad the Prophet; may God grant him peace. This is the tomb of ‘Abassa daughter of Juraij […], son of […]. May clemency forgiveness and satisfaction of God be on her. She died on Monday fourteen days having elapsed from Dhul-Qa‘dah of the year one and seventy, confessing that there is no god but God alone without partner and that Muhammad is His servant and His apostle, may God grant him peace.” (JL Bacharach, S Anwar, Early Versions Of the Shahada, A Tombstone From Aswan Of 71 AH, The Dome Of The Rock, And Contemporary Coinage, in: Islam [2012] Vol. 89, pp. 60-69)
      From the same period, we also have two very interesting Arab-Sassanian coins mentioning the name of the Holy Prophetsa in a foreign language. In Middle-Persian, the inscription of the 70 AH Coin reads:
      “MHMT PGTAMI Y DAT” (AS Eshragh: An Interesting Arab-Sasanian Dirhem in: ONS Newsletter [2004] Vol. 178, pp. 45-46)
      “Muhammad is the prophet of God.”
      The second coin is a 72 AH dirham with the inscriptions:
      DWHPT‘T - Seventy-two
      YZDT‘-I BR’ ‘LH - One God, but He
      ‘HRN YZDT‘ L‘YT‘ - another god does not exist
      MHMT‘ PTGMBI Y YZDT‘ - Muhammad is the Messenger of God
      (MI Mochiri, The Pahlavi Forerunner Of The Umayyad Reformed Coinage in: Journal Of The Royal Asiatic Society Of Great Britain And Ireland [1981] No. 2, pp. 168-172)
      The Dome of the Rock inscriptions are another important source mentioning the name of the Holy Prophetsa from the first century. The Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem was built by the Umayyad ruler Abdul-Malik in 72 AH and is one of the earliest testimonies of Islamic art and architecture. It contains many inscriptions referring to the Holy Prophetsa, for example, an inscription says:
      “In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate. There is no god but God. He is One. He has no associate. Unto Him belongeth sovereignty and unto Him belongeth praise. He quickeneth and He giveth death; and He has Power over all things. Muhammad is the servant of God and His Messenger. Lo! God and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation. The blessing of God be on him and peace be on him, and may God have mercy.” (For more details see: Andreas Kaplony, The Haram of Jerusalem, 324-1099: Temple, Friday Mosque, Area of Spiritual Power)
      Another interesting document mentioning the Holy Prophet (saw) is an Arabic-Greek bilingual papyrus document from the year 90 or 91 AH, the time of the Umayyad Caliph Walid I. It mentions the name of the Holy Prophetsa in Greek as follows:
      “maamet apostolos theou …”
      [Muhammad is the prophet/apostle of God.] (Grohmann, Arabic Papyri, in: The Egyptian Library, Vol. I, Egyptian Library Press: Cairo [1934] No. 13, pp. 23-25)
      This is probably the first Greek translation of the phrase Muhammad Rasul-Allah.
      Here I also wish to mention some inscriptions which prove the correctness of some very important events from early Islam reported to us by Muslim historians of the second century. The first is what has become known as the “Zuhayr” inscription which reads:
      بسم اللّٰه انا زهير كتبت زمن توفى عمر سنة اربع وعشرين
      [I, Zuhayr, wrote, at the time Umar died, the year 24.] (Ali Ghabban, R Hoyland, The inscription of Zuhayr, the oldest Islamic inscription (24 AH/AD 644-645), the rise of the Arabic script and the nature of the early Islamic state [2008])
      This inscription was found in 1999 by Ali ibn Ibrahim Ghabban and his wife during a field research in the area of Ula in northern Saudi Arabia. The content of this inscription is of great importance. Firstly, this dated inscription was written during the era of the Rashidun Khulafa and more precisely, just after the election of the third Caliph Hazrat Usmanra.
      The Zuhayr inscription has more historical significance. It clearly states that in the year 24, Umarra, the second Caliph, died and thus confirms the accounts given to us by the later Muslim historians, thus showing that Muslim historical accounts are reliable and do represent an important source when reconstructing early Islamic history.
      Secondly the inscription shows also that diacritical marks on consonants were written even at that early age in the Arabic script, counter to the popular belief that punctuation to differentiate consonants were only very lately introduced to the Arabic script.
      There also exist two papyrus documents from the time of Hazrat Umarra, one is a bilingual dated letter from the 22 AH Egypt containing a receipt of provisions given to the Muslim army (A Grohmann, I Arabische Chronologie, II Arabische Papyruskunde, Handbuch Der Orientalistik, EJ Brill). The other is a recently discovered letter by Prof Donner, which is interestingly addressed to three people, one of them being Hazrat Umarra (news.stanford.edu/2015/03/03/early-days-islam-030315/). The letter is still under research and is a very promising new find.
      Another similar inscription mentioning the death of the third Caliph Usmanra was found in the Tayma Region of Saudi Arabia some years ago. It says:
      انا قیس الکاتب ابو کتیر لعن اللّٰہ من قتل عثمان ابن عفان و من احت قتلہ تقتیلا
      “I am Qays, the scribe of Abu Kutayr. Curse of God on [those] who murdered Usman ibn Affan and [those who] have led to the killing without mercy.” (F Imbert, Califes, Princes et Poètes Dans Les Graffiti du Début de l’Islam in: Romano-Arabica [2015] Vol. 15, pp. 65-66 and p. 75)
      This inscription, although not dated, is most probably from the time of Hazrat Alira around the year 655. It is the first inscription confirming the events leading to the death of Hazrat Usmanra in Medina. The writer of this inscription, Qays, was much disturbed by the tragic events and therefore sent God’s wrath on those who were responsible for the Caliph’s death.
      Lastly, there is another interesting inscription found some years ago near the famous city of Taif in Saudi Arabia. It reads:
      “Al-Rayyan bin Abdullah testifies that there is no god but God and he testifies that Muhammad is the Messenger of God. Then [he] reiterates to those to come to testify to that, God have mercy on al-Rayyan. May He forgive him and cause him to be guided to the path of Paradise and I ask him for marytrdom in his path. Amin. This was written in the year the Masjid al-Haram was built in the seventy-eighth year.” (Nasir b Ali Al-Harithi, Naqsh Kitabi Nadar Yu‘arrikhu Imarah Al-Khalifah Al-Umawi Abd Al-Malik B. Marwan lil-Masjid Al-Haram ‘Am 78 AH, Alam Al-Makhtutat Wa Al-Nawadir [2007] Vol. 12, pp. 533-543)
      Masjid al-Haram was indeed rebuilt in 78 AH after the military expedition led by the Ummayad governor Hajjaj bin Yusuf against Abdullahra ibn Zubair in Mecca. During the siege, Hajjaj had used catapults which inflicted damage to the Haram area, so much so that it had to be rebuilt or renovated (See Tabari: Tarikh ar-Rusul wal-muluk). This inscription confirms these events as mentioned by Muslim historians of the second century.
      These are only few of the many archeological pieces of evidence we have to support the existence of the Holy Prophetsa and the accuracy of later Muslim historical accounts.
      Beginning just shortly after the demise of the Holy Prophetsa till the late first century, the Holy Prophetsa is mentioned in many Muslim and non-Muslim sources, making him one of the best documented prophets in history.
      Nevertheless there is more research needed to shed light on the early Islamic history.

  • @alexassali3628
    @alexassali3628 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    It is very convincing.

  • @ASHORSHEMAYA
    @ASHORSHEMAYA 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Wow wow wow, a moment my friend Mel if you don't mind
    Now you suddenly decide to overlook the reading of the inscriptions on the stones.. the Chinese documents and everything, and even find that Joe was right..etc. All this is to tell us that Dan Gibson is wrong in the Petra theory, and depends on the theory of the Kaaba = the cube (and this is a linguistic error that I explained You in more than one comment) to reach the Kaaba = the Holy of Holies “The Sacred Mosque”?
    Mel please end your vacation away from research, and try to relax
    Note: You may find this comment quoted verbatim on your channel if you re-publish the video .. because I do not like unjustified sharp turns .
    stay safe

    • @Speakers154
      @Speakers154 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Iyas was the first king of the Arabs. Where the confusion came was when the SIN wanted Mo to be all things including the founder at the beginning. This is a subtle change, it is a demotion. The SIN says mo is the founder but this is wrong, Iyas was.

    • @ASHORSHEMAYA
      @ASHORSHEMAYA 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@Speakers154 hi Mel, I do send you an Email please see it when you you have time .. and no need to response ..

  • @lunassr7212
    @lunassr7212 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Not easy to find this Mohammad person, have 16 person same name in that era,from Kongo until Ubzekistan... we just have name China call, Mey= young servant/Med=old servant by China language Pi-yi/wa-de ,thank Mel and Jay for all research withall friend....

  • @sangsepurba
    @sangsepurba 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    suddently Jay become expert in Islam history his knowledge know surpase all the west non Muslim scholar of history.......em suprised

    • @johnschuh8616
      @johnschuh8616 8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Secular historians felt no need to debunk the Koran. Their beef was with the Bible and the Church. Mohammed they could treat as a warlord of the type command among the barbarians that confronted Rome.

  • @user-yz1dl3eu8l
    @user-yz1dl3eu8l 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    14:10 The DI extract is making speaking Jews. The important thing is that the 'prophet' is said announcing the Messiah. Jesus-Christ ( poke to *Joe* )? Or the Jewish one, who will free Jerusalem (and Israel) from its ennemies? What ennemies??? Ask *Joe* 😁😁😁

  • @ausonius100
    @ausonius100 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I dont think the register of heresies found in the John of Damascus corpus is by John himself. Its a later probably 9th century document added to the writings of Damascus as he was a well known defender of Melkite orthodoxy by then. I think "Muhammad" is Jesus all the way until the 9th century were the title becomes fixed on the prophet (nabi) of the Quran who was most likely originally Abd Malik, but who in the 9th century became the traditional fictional character made by the Abbasids that we know today as the founder of Islam. The "Muhammad" of Thomas the presbyter was probably Jesus. And so "the Tayyaye of Muhammad" means the arabs of Jesus, that is the arab followers of Jesus. Thomas probably did not understand that the arabs were talking about Jesus when they used the name/title "Muhammad".

    • @aaabrams1889
      @aaabrams1889 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      HA HA HA...The Arabs of Jesus...ha ha ha

  • @universalflamethrower6342
    @universalflamethrower6342 3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    hole by hole,
    step by step,
    the Holey Religion
    burried without bloodshed

  • @ankur7773
    @ankur7773 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    TALKING TO THESE PEOPLE IS A WASTE OF TIME

  • @user-yz1dl3eu8l
    @user-yz1dl3eu8l 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    6:40 Yes, you were fooled. You still is by the same tradition which stands a 'Muhammad'/like existed whatever the time you will look at. How much 'times' will you look at? 50, 100, 200 years? Before 650, after 650? You waste your time. In 5 years you will say: ''There is no 'Muhammad' /like... I've searched, I was wrong, sorry guys, but it was fun! ."

  • @sushillugun6462
    @sushillugun6462 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Nice and 'SIN' sound very much truth.

  • @speakerscornerbestbits
    @speakerscornerbestbits 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Please don't use 'CE/BCE' on your dates, it's a load of nonsense! We have 'AD' and 'BC' and should not be ashamed of them.

  • @MrXucinxgaronx
    @MrXucinxgaronx 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Muhammad is the only prophet's name mentioned in Isaiah 42:1 Dead Sea Scrolls Manuscripts found in 1948 his name written in hebrew Alef He Mem Vaw Dalet Vaw ( AHMOD )
    Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, AHMAD; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

    • @preapple
      @preapple 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      the word MHMD and HMD have Hebrew origins

  • @sislertx
    @sislertx 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Join me in posting links to this on all islamic channels..and also inciting them to watch the chosen.
    Those.poor.lost.souls

  • @nihilonisicruce6843
    @nihilonisicruce6843 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    OK, so "muhammad" means "the praised one". Leaving aside who muslims would say was praising this guy (the people? God?) if muhammad is a successful war lord/ leader, of course his people would praise him; because he won battles, expanded territory and therefore enriched the people that he was leading . Nothing to do with religion (at that time). Consider this; Winston Churchill was considered by the wartime generation (WWII) as a revered figure. My parents (father born 1920 and fought in the Australian Imperial Force, mother born 1922) always said that Churchill saved England (meaning Britain, or otherwise known at the time as the Motherland, or Home) because he inspired people so much to carry on and fight "we will fight them in the beaches.....we will never surrender!". Though a "praised one" is not an Anglo-Saxon concept (and would be blasphemous) it is easy to see how people in the middle east in the 7th century would refer to a successful leader as such.

  • @maze208
    @maze208 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Gbu.

  • @deathstar51
    @deathstar51 ปีที่แล้ว

    The words Tayaye of Muhammad can also refer to a Muhammad now dead.

  • @unclebob2619
    @unclebob2619 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    New holes being dug

  • @ahsanrubel2869
    @ahsanrubel2869 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Brother ! Did Jesus exist? Did he a god Or human!? Did he suffer or not!?! Who was nailed on the cross?

  • @valeriesotiropoulos9720
    @valeriesotiropoulos9720 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Praying for more truths to be exposed about this✝️💕❤️🙏

  • @sincere2553
    @sincere2553 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    This has been enlightening and damaging to islam if true. One thing for sure we should be grateful that historical records exist.

  • @Chandransingham
    @Chandransingham 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Another pakkar one. Useful to appreciate the complex history behind the Quran and Prophet Mohammad. Let's see later the results of 'work in progress'. Some Muslim apologists don't like St John of Damascus. In fact they call him a 'liar'!

  • @arwandajunior1122
    @arwandajunior1122 3 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Quite interesting glory be to God and our Lord jesus christ

  • @edwardcham291
    @edwardcham291 3 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    Mel said that John of Damascus was a civil servant in the Islamic empire in 730ad? How could he criticize the Quran without being deprived of his head? That would suggest that Islam was still being developed.

  • @JohnSmith-cb4sb
    @JohnSmith-cb4sb ปีที่แล้ว

    So it wasn't Umar?