C.S. Lewis - from atheism to theism
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- Lewis: The new Psychology was at that time sweeping through us all. We were all influenced. We were all concerned about fantasy, or wishful thinking. I formed the resolution of always judging and acting with the greatest good sense.
Walter Hooper: He was saying that all youth at that time were trying to escape from wish fulfillment dreams. They got that from Freud. And they wanted to in one way spit on the images of their youth, and go onto they knew not what. But, anyway, leave that behind because it was juvenile.
Lewis: I was at that time living like many atheists; in a whirl of contradictions. I maintained that God did not exist. I was also very angry with God for not existing. I was equally angry with him for creating a world. Why should creatures have the burden of existence forced on them without their consent?
Lewis: All the books were beginning to turn against me. Indeed, I must have been as blind as a bat not to have seen, long before, the ludicrous contradiction between my theory of life and my actual experiences as a reader. The most religious were clearly those on whom I could really feed.
Lewis: I can only describe it as the Great War between Barfield and me. When I set out to correct his heresies, I find that he had decided to correct mine! And then we went at it, hammer and tongs, far into the night, night after night.
Duriez: Barfield believed that the imagination plays a very important part in how we know. He rejected the model that science is the only way to truth, to acquiring truth. He felt that the imagination was laid behind even the work of science. It gave meaning to propositions. And so he felt that Lewis was missing out in his whole approach to reality on what made knowledge possible.
Peter Kreeft: When Lewis talks about joy, he talks about something that he labels the central theme of his whole life. But what he means by joy is not the satisfaction of a desire, but a desire that is more desirable than any satisfaction.
Lewis: There was no doubt Joy was a desire. But a desire is turned not to itself, but to an object. I had been wrong in supposing that I desired for Joy itself. All value lay in that of which Joy was the desiring. The naked other. Unknown, undefined, desired. I did not yet ask "Who is desired?"
Kreeft: The very experience of Joy that Lewis had was an arrow that led to the target of belief in God. Lewis argued innate, deep desires do not exist unless they correspond to something that can satisfy them. If there is hunger, there is food. If there is sexual desire, there is sex. If there is curiosity, there is knowledge. So if there is the desire for this thing that is beyond this world, there must be something beyond this world.
Lewis: The fox had now been dislodged from the wood and was running in the open, bedraggled and weary, the hounds barely a field behind. The odd thing was that before God closed in on me, I was in fact offered what now appears to be a moment of wholly free choice. I was going up Headington Hill on the top of a bus. Without words, and almost without images, a fact about myself was somehow presented to me. I became aware that I was holding something at bay.
I felt myself being given a free choice. I could open the door or keep it shut. I chose to open. I felt as if I were a man of snow at long last beginning to melt. Drip-drip. And presently trickle-trickle.
I had always wanted, above all things, not to be interfered with. I had wanted - mad wish - to call my soul my own. I had been far more anxious to avoid suffering than to achieve delight.
You must picture me alone in that room at Magdalen, night after night, feeling, whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet.
Total surrender, the absolute leap in the dark, were demanded. I gave in, and admitted that God was God ... perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England.
He was the most reluctant Christian convert in Christendom. But what a fantastic Christian writer he became. Wow!
@Svenger Mc. Spazzy wrong and wrong....read 'mere christianity' by cs lewis
So true!
Antony Flew, “World’s Most Notorious Atheist” and World’s Icon and Champion Advocate for Atheism for over 50 years finally concluded, *_“I now believe that the universe was brought into existence by an infinite Intelligence. I believe that this universe’s intricate laws manifest what scientists have called the Mind of God. I believe that life and reproduction originate in a divine Source. Why do I believe this, given that I expounded and defended atheism for more than a half century? The short answer is this: this is the world picture, as I see it, that has emerged from MODERN SCIENCE.”_*
@Svenger Mc. Spazzy He very firmly believed in the reality of Christ. Read miracles.
Indeed
"You must picture me alone in that room at Magdalen, night after night, feeling, whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet". Then, the moment of truth: "I gave in and admitted that God was God". How true this is!!! Thank you, C. S. Lewis...
To think a man as smart as him and one as ignorant as I found the same Savior, Christ is truly all in all!
To think a man as foolish as him and a man as foolish as you found the same foolish belief!
@@sqlblindman
Jesus was foolish now?
@@tryhardf844
We have no way to know, since we don't know a single thing he ever said or did.
The one thing we can say with reasonable certainty is that he was illiterate.
@@tryhardf844
But I didn't reference Jesus in my response, son.
How foolish of you.
@@sqlblindman
C.S. Lewis was foolish for believing in anything regarding religion,so my point still stands on behalf of your first claim.
I am no son,nor of you or his God so please stop.
There is one thing I think Christians can learn from atheists - and I think Lewis understood this as a Christian because he was once an atheist - and that's to go through life without expecting all prayers to be automatically answered. Belief still doesn't guarantee everything going your way. In that sense you might say atheism also requires a leap of faith.
No faith needed to be an atheist for me. I don’t ask for prayers to be answered since anything I don’t control is at the whims of chance, randomness, chaos. Therefore what I can control becomes essential. My attitudes, my actions, my values with no wish for a reward..
@@Fireneedsair wouldn't you need faith to believe everything that happened every single thing that's needed for us to live rigjt now is just luck
You're making an assumption that an atheist who becomes a Christian would have a superior standing and "understanding" than a Christian.There are some atheists who are smart, most of them are stupid af who put up comments similar to yours. I hope you are smart enough to feel ashamed for it and I hope it burns.
"I was very angry at God for not existing"
Everyone is who isn't converted! That's the truth!
Most atheists in a nutshell:
" There is no God and I hate him"
@@icansee5377 psalm 14:1
The fool says in his heart there is no God.
@@xaviersonofgod4464 and "there is none who does good" - that isn't true, many atheists are good people
@@angelikakotala6303 my friend, apart from getting forgiveness, and being born again, and receiving the Holy Spirit, there absolutely nothing in the nature of man that is good. All men desire things that are not of God, and we actually hate the things of God.
The bible says that it is absolutley wicked to hate the loving Creator who gave you, and I life. Those words are not exact, but the principle stands; as long as we hate God, and don't accept His free gift of salvation through Jesus, we are considered evil!
Even I, apart from Jesus, am totally wicked, and depraved. I know that God would look at me, and a terrorist (before I was converted) and think the same thing of both of us: unpardoned sinner. Which the bible says meant I was under the wrath of God(John 3:36)!
I praise Jesus that He saved me from not only my sin, but myself. He can do the same for you if you repent of all known sin, and trust Him in faith that He will forgive you, if you do that in sincerity.
C.S. Lewis - Thank you for your contribution to Christian Literature!!! Ahead of his time...
c.s. lewis was very creative
"When I hear theists defend their faith with the same old, tired, debunked reasons I just shake my head."
You know, as a Christian, I'm called to defend my faith so far as I do not deny it or allow it to be warped or distorted. Particularly by those who claim to be Christians, though. Scripture is very clear on that. Christians should hold other Christians accountable, not the rest of the world. I think if the church attempted this, the rest of the world wouldn't encounter as much hypocrisy....
lucyinthesky317 I put on the glorious armor of God to fight in the spiritual world(imagination) daily and I look amazing in His glory and I am battling evil along with other soldier of God. Come join us so I can show you my mighty sword! ❤️🙏🕊🔑☺️👑🏝
Amen
I think the arguments for theism are good and sound. You obviously do not believe. It would be better if you were more honest and say that you do not believe.
"The #1 problem with the Bible is that it is so open to interpretation that anyone can use it to justify any atrocity"
I disagree. I think the #1 problem with the Bible is that , like most books, people don't really read it, they take it out of context and use it to fulfill their own means. The Bible has inspired some atrocious actions, yes, but it has also inspired amazing & beautiful actions. When man gets his hands on things, they often get distorted.
I agree, the text is hardly irrelevant.
That's exactly what I found out where I came to christ. Everything I knew was literally hearsay from everyone else. Jesus Christ was a kind loving meek person who we could only imagine to be like. As I was reading the gospel and they came to him when I could literally see myself in pain and on the ground and I know he would be there to pick me up and hold me without question.
@@deeveevideos Personally I think that the bible should be taken strictly as metaphorical instead of reality. when taken metaphorically, it helps, and when you take it literally it does not really hurt too much either. however, when you believe it word by word, you are voluntarily denying observable, provable science that is proven thousands of times, like carbon dating, and evolution.
@@greymatter5188 I am sad for you.
@@greymatter5188
“ All we like sheep have gone, we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” (Isaiah 57:1)
“ As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one.” ( Rom. 3:10-12)
Note, EVERY sheep has gone astray. None are righteous. Do you think that includes you too?
“ What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost. (Matt. 18:12-14) Jesus is happy when He finds a single, lost UNRIGHTEOUS sheep.
According to Scripture, what was the purpose of Jesus Christ's death and resurrection?
God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. (John 3:17)
And if anyone hears my words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world . (John 12:47)
Who comes down from heaven and gives Life to the world. (John 6:33)
The Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them. (Luke 9:56)
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself. (John 12:32)
As you have given Him authority over all flesh , that He should give eternal life to as many as you have given Him. (John 17:2)
The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. (John 3:35)
God, Who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, Whom He has appointed heir of all things , through Whom also He made the worlds. (Hebrews 1:1,2)
His purpose is very clear: to reconcile all things back to His Father. (Col. 1:16-20)
Hmmm, save the world, draw all peoples, all things in his hands, heirs of all things…does that sound like a couple percent? Ten percent? Fifty percent? Ninety-nine percent? Based upon the above, it seems to me, that NINETY-NINE PERCENT IS NOT ENOUGH FOR JESUS!
@@greymatter5188 reddit
Psychology doesn't have to necessarily make you opposed to God. Any intellectual pursuit can come between you and God. It's because you get to thinking you should be able to understand all things, but we can never fully understand God, no one can.
John283T
I fully agree with the sentiment here. Great comment.
beautiful comment John I agree completely
There is psychology in the Bible, it just isnt explicitly called psychology
To experience "Joy" is to express it,.. fully towards God.
I'm not sure we can say CS Lewis was the most reluctant convert. Saul of Tarsus had to be stuck blind and received an abrupt interaction with Christ before he became Paul the believer.
I personally made sincere request to Good that he show me he was real and within a year I was a believer but if of anyone would have asked me the previous year if I would ever be a Christian I would have laughed in their face. Like Lewis I recall a time when I had finally come to the realization the the Bible is true, that Jesus is God and that I would now need to decide which side I would choose. That the new knowledge had to be acted on. I chose Christ.
This is a compelling portrait, intriguing for the believer and nonbeliever alike.
I think anyone skeptical of Lewis should check out his essays. They're here on TH-cam-- c s Lewis doodle is a good resource.
The Hippolytus of Euripides, pagan as it might be, influenced CS Lewis, and moved him towards Christianity. This poem, written by a pagan, is also an indication of that God has placed an innate longing in everyone for something that is not of this world. Even those who know nothing of Christianity feel the tug or longing for something that is divine.
once pathos, ethos, logos are covered, it all comes down to perspectives and choices. IMHO, one day we are accountable for them.
The battle is not with what people tell you or as it seems (shoved down your throats) but the very work of God, who works in heart of every person. That's what your fighting.
Wow. Nice video. Who made it?
It's so weird how everything Lewis said about realizing the existence of a God was exactly how I encountered Him too...
ela I put on the glorious armor of God to fight in the spiritual world(imagination) daily and I look amazing in His glory and I am battling evil along with other soldier of God. Come join us so I can show you my mighty sword! ❤️🙏🕊🔑☺️👑🏝
He is a theosophical disciple
Same here. Right down to the part about surrendering. Once I gave in...I found him.
I believe God exists. Came to realize it, much like C.S. Lewis did. I regard Him as an eccentric and random roommate. I acknowledge that he sometimes takes out the garbage, or helps with the rent, but sometimes I notice the toilet hasn't been flushed in months, and the back door has been left propped open with the air conditioner at full blast.
You are biopolar
Crown Admirer Do you mean bipolar? What is biOpolar? What is the evidence that mccloaker is bipolar?
If you believe him, he is God, if you dont believe him he is God. He doesnt need you to be God so you can go fuck ur fool.
“ All we like sheep have gone, we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” (Isaiah 57:1)
“ As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one.” ( Rom. 3:10-12)
Note, EVERY sheep has gone astray. None are righteous. Do you think that includes you too?
“ What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost. (Matt. 18:12-14) Jesus is happy when He finds a single, lost UNRIGHTEOUS sheep.
According to Scripture, what was the purpose of Jesus Christ's death and resurrection?
God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. (John 3:17)
And if anyone hears my words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world . (John 12:47)
Who comes down from heaven and gives Life to the world. (John 6:33)
The Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them. (Luke 9:56)
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself. (John 12:32)
As you have given Him authority over all flesh , that He should give eternal life to as many as you have given Him. (John 17:2)
The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. (John 3:35)
God, Who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, Whom He has appointed heir of all things , through Whom also He made the worlds. (Hebrews 1:1,2)
His purpose is very clear: to reconcile all things back to His Father. (Col. 1:16-20)
Hmmm, save the world, draw all peoples, all things in his hands, heirs of all things…does that sound like a couple percent? Ten percent? Fifty percent? Ninety-nine percent? Based upon the above, it seems to me, that NINETY-NINE PERCENT IS NOT ENOUGH FOR JESUS!
"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein.
To not believe in God, you would have to abstract a concept of God from the rest of your experienced reality and say it doesn't fit. Who conjured this abstract concept? You did. You cannot know all possible configurations of the cosmos. At best, agnosticism seems plausible, leaving open the possibility for future experiences.
Even believers in God do not know all there is to know about God. Each has his/her own present dynamic image of God, their own direct experience of God. An experience beyond words, concepts and models. But at least they are humble enough to be open to learn and experience more. Through awe and reverence and love. God does not have to fit Himself into the pre-existing categories by which you organise your world.
Going to the supermarket looking for God: you find rice and corn flakes, milk and meat, cheese and crackers, etc, but no God, so you conclude after having carefully gone over every item that "God does not exist", while God is in the very building ensconcing everything and in the very atoms that make up all this stuff. A different level of abstraction. A different scope of perception. A different size of empathetic imagination.
Perhaps God is broadcasting at a frequency your apparatus does not pick up at present.
God does not fit your model; nothing wrong with God, only with your model. Scientism is a closed model. Materialistic and mechanical.
All science does is create models for the purpose of prediction and control. All scientific models are provisional. As soon as a better model comes along, the old model is dropped for the new. Better at prediction and control. They are heuristic tools that work better or worse at their assigned task. They are not - and don't even pretend to be - 'reality". These models are made up of concepts abstracted from the rest of reality, fixed variables to which changing values are assigned: "temperature", "velocity", "mass", etc. Variables such as "position" and "velocity" have fuzzy values in quantum mechanics, in which all is finally reduces to probability waves. The certainties of 19th century science have all vanished.
Appreciation. Apprehension. The magic - the progress, the expansion, the momentum - is in the question, not in the answer. The greatest mystery is the questioning subject. Consciousness.
Keep an open mind. An open heart. Be brave enough for bold, new adventures. Ask new questions. Receive new answers.
Vir Quisque Vir Everything you said contradicted your belief in the Christian god. Don’t command persons to keep an open mind when you are song the exact thing which is choosing a side. You are the opposite of an atheist but you guys still create beliefs when you don’t have all the knowledge.
The statement that you claimed Einstein said didn’t really make sense from my interpretation. How can imagination be more than knowledge; you have to have knowledge to imagine. You can’t dream about a car and not know what it is(when I say car I mean the definition of a car not what you think is a car). If you can imagine without knowledge, you are a super being . Imagination comes hand in hand with knowledge.
You know what’s actually funny theists (specifically Christians) are taught that no one knows how the supreme being looks, so no one can say how he looks without the KNOWLEDGE of how he looks. Can you dream about how Jesus actually looks without actually seeing him?
Khaleesi Fuego - Thank you and God bless. What I meant is that everyone should be humble and not closed-minded and stubborn, too proud to learn new things. Of course keep an open mind. God would not lie. God is not restricted to our human-all-to-human conceptions. What Einstein meant is that you have questions about phenomena and imagine possible solutions then test them to create new knowledge and advance consciousness instead of just blindly repeating what you have been told or what you have read. Learn. Improve. Grow.
Foolish argument.
When atheists say they don't believe in God they are referring to other people's concepts of God.
Present your own definition of the god you believe in, and give reasonable evidence supporting your claim.
I love this comment. Very very well said
The writing of a man who spent time wisely going over his thoughts and feelings, but unwisely never going over why he had such thoughts and feelings.
The line that gives it away - "If there is hunger, there is food. If there is sexual desire, there is sex. If there is curiosity, there is knowledge. So if there is the desire for this thing that is beyond this world, there must be something beyond this world."
Everything he listed conveys survival advantage, not a true reflection of reality.
He is saying, quite simply and eloquently, that he has observed through his own experience and the words/actions of other athiests, that the anger some athiests direct at the idea of a creator contradicts their lack of belief in one. I am a Christian, but I am not angry at the idea that some do not believe in God (only grieved). Whereas, I have encountered friends and acquaintances who seem to hold a great deal of aggression against an idea of a creator, as if they are personally offended.
The strange thing about CSL is that by the end of his life, his beliefs were pretty much Catholic (Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, purgatory, and so on). Yet he is revered almost more by Evangelicals than Catholics. Is this another of selective reading: picking and choosing what you like and ignoring the rest???
That’s interesting I will have to fact check you but I can see that.
“I’d been far more anxious to avoid suffering than to achieve delight.” Oh man! Oh God! Oh how I can relate to that.
oddly enough his convert, the famous j.r.r. tolkien; though a devout christian, wrote some of the most pagan/shamanistic fiction in the world and was looked unto as a sort of 'demi-god' to the hippies and free-thinking libertarians of the 1960's and 70's. Tolkien died ironically devoted only by those who were in the least bit devout. I love both his work and C.S. Lewis' books. Writing brings us to new places, and each writer takes their own path, whether it's faithful or questioning faith.
As a Christian, why would I not quote Isaiah? It's not uncommon to do so, especially considering he speaks of Christ in this passage. This particular prophesy was written 700 years prior to the birth of Jesus. It's very specific about the coming Messiah. The OT is an historical record for Christians. I follow it only as HISTORY and the story of God & man. Jews follow the Law of the OT. Christians follow the philosophy of Jesus (NT), which then explains the premise of the Law.
Actually, Lewis believed that the outward conformity of the body influenced the inner, spiritual being. He did, in fact, kneel with clasped hands, because he believed that posture brought the spirit into submission. He writes about this in many of his books. Check them out.
We are all born atheist; that is, we begin life without a concept of "gods." They are put into our heads by people who've had OTHER people put the idea into THEIR heads. The only reason I ever believed in the god-concept was because my parents taught me it was true. They taught me about the god-concept THEY were taught, ignoring all other gods. I reached a point where I cared more about truth and reality than what I'd been told. My search for "god" led me to atheism. I'm so glad I searched!
As someone who searched and has witnessed people make that genuine search for truth, I respect this. My parents are on opposite pages when it comes to a "god-concept." I think the main problem religious and even nonreligious people face is having never given an honest search for truth (and if it isn't our parents, it may be peers, media, culture, corporations, our own ignorance or fallacious reasoning, subconscious desires, etc, that push us to remain passive to that pursuit for truth.)
la forma en que lewis expone el cristianismo es poetica y profunda por lo cual podriamos afirmar que este es un hombre que marco la historia
A conversion based on reason or argument is actually devoid of substance, because the reasons and arguments against conversion are far clearer, more logical, sincere and moral. The very essense of faith that has substance is in feeling, emotion, longing, desire - that is, after all, how faith is expressed: through music, archetecture, poetry of psalms, art.
The logical aspects of religion - like theology, apologist arguments, etc. are if not foreign, then at least extremely unappealing.
Often times they God atheist define and say "Does not exist", really does not exist. Because the God they Christian believe and says exists, is not the same God they atheist does not believe in and says "does not exist". That is to say. Both sides are often not arguing about the same being but they may think they are. The atheist does not know God. How can he argue about what he does not know. From the atheist idea of God, he convinced himself that God does not exist. Perhaps, ideas he has gleaned from his believing counterparts.
If the atheist should find God he must forget everything he has been told of God. It is these ideas that allows him make requirements of God that he will not or cannot fulfil.
He must approach God from his very simplest knowledge of him, which is that which created the heavens and the earth.
The atheists often uses morality as an argument of God's existence. But God has said that "My ways are higher than you ways". God is not (logically speaking) to share our own moral views. If he were God infact, he wouldn't. If he were God, our wisdom should appear foolish to him and this, the Bible affirms over and over again.
According to the Bible, God ordered the genocidal killing of some tribes including their infants, we consider that wrong and that is against our understanding of "a good God" but God has said that his ways are higher than our ways. Perhaps our understanding of good is not the same as his understanding. And that doesn't make him not God. If he were evil, he would still be God.
I think the atheist believes in God. The evidence for God's existence is overwhelming. He doesn't just believe in a good God.
For me, this is why I believe in God. I have always known, like a programme that had been encoded in me the incapability of this present world to satisfy me. I see all the good already me and imagine all the good that can be and I find them unsatisfactory. My soul yearned for what it did not know yet. My mind yearned for what it could not imagine. And finding God, whose ways are higher than my own came with hope. I don't just want good, according to my desire. Eventually, even the allure of good things will fade and fail to satisfy me. I want God.
Every good thing in life foreshadows God. We crave good but we know we want more than good. But since all we have is 'good' we manage it. We may kill for it, steal for it, lie for it. Or other things. All for good things. In God we find the promise. The promise of our souls desire. That good thing we have always ached after but couldn't quite reach. It's unnameable. If God didn't exist there wouldn't be any point to life at all and because I know there is a point, I yearn for him and I find him.
Atheist say that "God doesn't exist", is a bitter truth. Bitter because many of the Believers have hope in the promises of God and of heaven and our desire for the ethereal leaves us vulnerable to being brainwashed. But those same atheist indulge into pleasures for the sake of desire, even though logically speaking, they shouldn't. Sexual immorality, drinking, etc... Their religion is as illogical as they claim Christianity is. What is the reason for their religion? For all they do? Now, because Christianity promises the greatest. Greater than what their puny god's promises them, they stamp at it. They want everyone to be as hopeless and despondent as they are.
I can only say: time we tell. If God doesn't exist, the atheist would not be better of. But if he does, the believer will be better of. Logic alone demands that we believe in God. Who this God is may be an inquisition the atheist embarks on by himself.
As a Christian, I'd say though that he seeks our God with all his heart and he will find him.
@@favournnamdi2883 i can probably see your point of view though I don’t share it.
One thing to note, the expression “seek out god with all your heart and you will find him” does not make sense to a non believer - only to someone who already believes in god. How likely would you seek out with all your heart lord Vishnu or Eru Iluvatar? You have to at least partake in a an idea FIRST before you can be thoroughly committed to such a pursuit of an idea.
To test whether or not your argument makes sense to an atheist, first see if you can replace anything Christian in your argument with say Hindu and see if it makes sense to you. (Replace “God” with “gods”, “Jesus” with “Vishnu”, etc. That way you can tell how persuasive your argument can be to someone who doesn’t already share your point of view.
The emotional aspect of your argument is actually the most sincere and genuine. Because they are true to you. You did not become a Christian, i would wager, because you were convinced by a logical argument, instead, at best, you used that argument to rationalize what you already believed.
@@vdizhoor I think the motivation to believe that God exists and to seek God is not logical but stems from a desire within us. We are like keys without padlocks. There is just a sense that we are incomplete. We are good yet we are not good. Just the same way curiosity will be no good without knowledge. It is within everyone. The proof. I cannot prove God to you and even God cannot prove himself to you. Because even if a spirit were to appear to you, you cannot be sure that he is who he said he was. You could still accept him though. The truth is,... Our heart can deceive us and that is why there are thousands of religions apart from Christianity. The difference between Christianity and all other religion though is that they all appeal to our pride. There is just something you have to do to earn salvation or whatever they promise. Christ said "have faith (that is 'trust in me') I will do the rest. If we receive salvation by faith, we cannot boast. But regardless of all these. God has to be one. It was one person that created the heavens and the earth. There is One over all. That is the God you want to seek. So my theory is, if you seek him, he will reveal himself to you, if he is a good God. You can quit seeking reason from the believers. Go to the God yourself. Give him the benefit of the doubt. You can ask him anything. You do not have to pray the way any religion prays. Just pray as you deem fit. Man to God. The desire is already in you. You just have to given in. Yes, you will sound stupid at first because it's something new. Except you do not want God. Many atheist do not want God so even if he exists they would prefer not knowing to keep the bliss of ignorance.
Hey, I've followed your conversation on and off and I think you have some valid points. I also commend you for having a decency to avoid stereotyping those that have faith. I respect that. Penn Jillete is one of my favorite atheist commentators, and as a Christian, I respect his honesty and his ability to meet those who are different from himself. Faith isn't about rules (rituals); it's about finding truth. For some, we find that truth to be Christ.
I cannot make the assertion that *all* things can be judged either "good" or "evil" or "bad" and are always absolute. Everything must be taken on a case-by-case basis. I believe in absolute reason. Reason is where justice comes from, not a static book of rules.
We all have fallen, and none, not one, is holy. He will lift the fallen, it is His Holy grace that is the great gift to Mankind, for all fail in His light.
Good comment. Even as an atheist myself, I have become weary of people relying on science alone to validate themselves,and presuming that it is the sole criterion which others should judge claims. Our faculties of reason play a role also. The findings of science must be interpreted by us (subjective beings). Stimuli are not suceptable to falsehood, our judgements are.
I have one more question before I turn in. If not too personal, how did you come to believe what you believe about the existance (or lack thereof) of a creator? Experiences, parents, teachings, peers-these all have such an impact upon us. I'm always curious as to how these things shape an individual's story.
From what movie or show was this clip taken?
This is fantastic and I would very much enjoy watching the whole presentation!
Thank you!
Lewis - "I maintained that God did not exist. I was also very angry at God for not existing." And then he ran upstairs, locked his bedroom door and refused to come out even for dinner. Although it took awhile, eventually he grew up. Now this is a form of evolution that I can get behind.
I know where you are comming from, but this approach to religion is a fundamental one - one of history and cosmology, which most believers don't adhere to. Crazy preachers are a fringe (albeit a vocal one) of our society.
Can organized religion exploit spiritual sentiments in the gullable? Yes. But the guallable are just as succeptable to greed, nationlaism, etc.
In my opinion, we face much more problems from self-indulgence, self-centerdness and intolerance than we do from spiritual beliefs.
lack of scientific understanding & personal incredulity does not lead to a supernatural explanation..we live in a natural world and know no other supernatural one..amen
Interesting that you note that I reference Einstein instead of trying to form a compelling argument of any nature. And, for the record, Einstein was apparently a theist or an agnostic at different points in his life, while Hawking could be generously referred to as a "hard" agnostic, neither of them supported Christianity or the concept of your God so much as they supported a "first cause" that may have been sentient.
In my own theistic travels I came to the realization, and subsequent affirmation, that there are too many just-sos to be explicable by just science and too much autobio to jettison Theo. Denominationally I moved toward a man-shaped God who filled my God-shaped hole.
A better wording on my part would’ve said, “I believe reason is the absolute best way to make sense of things,” hence “absolute reason.” It’s the human capacity to make sense of things. We have logic, deduction, skepticism and others at our disposal, so any attempts to use “faith” (wishful thinking) fall flat. I see reason as the polar opposite of faith. (To be cont.)
Further to the Einstein quote: the word "pantheism" has more than one meaning. It can be used to mean a belief in a pantheon; or it can be used to mean that God and the universe are identical (in the same way that your body is with you).
Is this video available to purchase? Where can I get it? Any help will be most valuable
You're right. I'm sweeping the dust off and moving on. You tend to pick one part of a response and hone in on that rather than engage the entire response or the questions posed. I have asked you which book or author you would suggest I read in order that I may better understand your viewpoint. If you would please, I still request a recommended reading. I want to engage your ideas, not argue diction. Who knows? Perhaps I will see the light yet.
I know this is a different video, but I feel that Ravi Zacharias addresses more of your questions than I possibly can. He has been blessed with far more intelligence than I; if you have the time, I'd love to know your opinion on this video, understanding that there are many scholarly sources to back Ravi's words on this. He is simply the most eloquent I've come across. Again please, if you have a particular source or novel for me to look into, I would love to read and converse with you on that.
What program is this from? It looks really good!
Interesting! Not what I expected...I like it. Absolute reason...what is that based on? Perception, yes? The understanding/interpretation of sensory input (I'm an Ayn Rand fan; if there was any atheist that argued for reason, it was she, so I'm not trying to prove against your point. I think it's very valid. I just wish to know what makes reason absolute?) I'm aware of Plato's writings on this, too. Also, would it be safe to say you believe in relative morality, then?
Also, what do you mean by moral free fall? Please elaborate, I'm not familiar with the term. Thank you.
How can something “based on reason or argument” be “devoid of substance”? Do you not value reason in all aspects of life? “Faith that has substance.” I’d like to see what that looks like, because “faith” is just believing without evidence; how can that be said to have substance? If you have evidence, if you have substance, then you don’t NEED faith. I don’t find any “logical aspects of religion” either, so I’m not sure what side you’re arguing for. Will you clarify what you’re getting at? Thx.
85+% may SAY they are religious, even Christian. But I think more times than not, this is the case: “You SAY you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.” James 2:19 In this country, hypocrisy runs rampant, from our churches to our courts to our Congress. Also, tax exemption for churches should not be argued on tradition; rather, it makes sense because most churches (not all) partake in considerable charities.
My point with the science vs. theologian comment is that the most major advances in our human evolvement have come NOT from "holy people" who were working in their god's name, but from *scientists* who cared enough about figuring out how the Universe works, as opposed to spending time thinking about dirt men, rib women, demons, and talking snakes.
@coltage
I read C.S. Lewis argument and it's quite impressive!
Well, I don't think I fit into any of those categories of atheist/agnostic/theist exactly since, as you know, I'm skeptical whether "theism" even makes clear sense by definition. I mean, people often assume we're talking about the same thing but it seems we all think more differently than we realize. In general, I may be 80% atheist about the most stereotypical teachings about "god" in major world religions but I'm also curious and open-minded of what may exist...mind boggling! How bout you?
Thank you for the discussion. Once I have read some of your suggested literature, we may, if we both desire, continue this conversation.
sethanaich--With every word you type, you prove my point over and over again. Science, which is constantly re-inventing itself and coming up with new theories to explain away something new research has found that makes old theories impossible, wants us to trust it to give us ultimate meaning and truth? With MY life? I'd rather swing out into eternity on the trust I have in a Friend Who has already died, and dying, defeated death, hell, and the grave.
@kakusger hi! Just reading your comment, I have a though...don't you agree, that not every atheist thinks exactly the same in his atheistic views? Even if his views don't make sense to you, can they not still be atheistic? And the words you quote he said, I think, once he was a theist. S it was looking at his atheism through his theistic view. Right?
I have always been fascinated by religious studies. It was the primary choice of elective courses I took in college, and so naturally, yes, that question has occurred to me. I could tell you I have read the Bhagvad, the Dhamma, Torah,and the Koran, but these readings took place after I had already become a Christian, so this exposure may make no difference. As a Christian, I recognise the tendency to rationalize, as every religious adherent does, that my belief system is superior or truth. (tbc)
Both men can commit whatever acts they want, be them good or bad, virtuous or vile. Both are in rebellion to God. The one that acknowledges God, no matter when, and as you said, "genuinely converts," is redeemed (therefore, his actions ought to reflect His faith and be "good.") I'm only presenting what is in the Bible. If you'd like references, let me know. I would love to read a book you would suggest... perhaps one that is particularly compelling for the point you are making...?
He fell into the trap of most religious people ..wanting to live on beyond this world..wishful thinking but religion keeps the promises alive even though there is zero proof anyone continues to live beyond a natural life ..amen
On the subject of Christ being the same level as us, this is just my 2 cents, but I believe He HAD to be the same level as us in order to redeem us the way He did. Though the factor of Holy Spirit doing Marry does come in to question on whether that even qualify as same level as us.
Ah well, thanks for the encouragement. There is a unique difficulty in communicating with individuals whose concept of everything is contingent upon a different philosophy. I'm sure this is true of both sides in any conversation facing this dilemma.
From what movie or show is this?
You might really enjoy Armand M. Nicholi, Jr.'s side-by-side reading of Lewis and Freud. Freud actually also rejected religious faith in a kind of teenage rebellion, centered around negative feelings about his father. It's not so simple; I think it's a question that requires more thought.
what is the name of this freaken documentary so I can watch the rest of it.. it's bloody fascinating! Someone answer me please!
joshybumboshy - PBS "The Question of God".
it is indeed beautiful to base your poems on imagination,I enjoy reading poems describing the most beautiful scenes you can make up, however, the truth is different.
What I mean is that a conversion to a faith that bring converts a form of comfort and joy (not that religion has a monopoly on joy) is not based on cosmological arguments or word tricks. It is aquired through metaphor, ritual, inspirational music, you name it. Not through evidence. Not through logic.
Of course the problem arises when religion impedes on the territory of reason and logic and claim them for itself to justify itself in a discussion of public policy, and holds on to power.
He is talking about when they will need to go to war against those nations that are outside the Promised Land given to Israel. This is not a war of conquest, but a war to protect the fledgling nation of Israel against those nations that would be hostile to there existance.
Hello.
_Do you see this comment? Enjoy!_ 🌼
This is an outstanding video. Where is the source taken from?
Praise the Lord He finally opened his eyes to the Truth. Praise God Let the whole earth Praise the Lord in Truth Amen
“In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference.” p.133 The Watchmaker -Richard Dawkins (His words, not mine. Not a gross mischaracterization, I'd say.)
What is this from? It sounds like a clip from perhaps a longer documentary because of how abruptly it ends. No sources were cited but there's got to be a source! I want to see the whole thing! Oh no, look at me, having the desire for something that I can't be sure exists because I've never seen it. How absurd eh?
That's sad you feel this way, I think that being an atheist allows you to choose whatever you want to do with life and doing what makes you feel the best. There's sense in life, it's beautiful.
Religion lays guidelines for a happy life, with ironically more choices. If you crash and bur early because you did whatever you want (ate poorly and got obese for instance) it's really limiting, isn't it?
I don't think that children need it. But I've seen adults go through struggles, and while on the edge of their ropes many experience something which brings them hope, strength and renewal. They usually describe it through terms found in myth. This natural placebo effect works best for them when believed.
Is that the only way? No. Can they be taken advantage of? Yes.
Can they take it too far, feed fundamentalism? Yes. But is that a reason to condemn it? Or to accuse them of ignorance? I say no.
There are good reasons for belief in God. For instance, I would say that God is the best explanation for the world we happen to be in. Science tells us there was probably a 'Big Bang' and this was the beginning of the universe.Before the universe, when there was neither time nor space, what could cause the 'Big Bang' other than a causeless cause? Thus modern science brings us back to Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas and Theism.
Right.....and the arguments for Atheism are so compelling. Fact is when you listen to many of the New Atheists, their arguments are based on an appeal to emotion(constantly druming on "the god of the Old testament, hell, and religious violence) and Appeal to ridicule which aren't terribly good ways to argue. I have read the works of many of the New Atheists and they aren't terribly good or convincing
Belief/Faith is not a form of gulability, but a surrender to something that you think might relieve your need. It isn't about being convinced and right, or finding truth, but about finding happiness, contentment where other methods have failed.
vovka-morkovka so surrender and defeat for benefits?
God is love
what kind ? the love of the drinker for his bottle or the gambler for his bet ? the love of the rich for their cash or the sexual lust of the deviant or the 'normal' - God is love is like saying one vague concept 'is' one complex multifacted human emotion. Small thinking.
adam diamond adam, the new testament translates three different words to the modern english 'love'
The word agape, means self sacrificial.
Thats the kind of love God is into.
The more you know!
adam diamond Agape (/ˈæɡəpiː/[1] or /ˈæɡəpɪ/;[2] Classical Greek: ἀγάπη, agápē; Modern Greek: αγάπη IPA: [aˈɣapi]), which means "love: esp. brotherly love, charity; the love of God for man and of man for God
+Philip Stuckey agape was used by early Christians to denote self sacrificing love. So self sacrificial is still not wrong
@madhat2k
It was the realization of the consequences of creatures of reason, in a world without meaning, which makes Lewis "angry at God" for his non-existence, as understood by Atheists. Further, Lewis says in the video, "Why should creatures have the burden of existence forced on them without their consent?"
"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning. . ." C.S. Lewis From Mere Christianity
That's the main philosophy of scripture (looking directly and only at the Bible as the source, not commentaries, not denominations). "Good works" is the term used to described moral choices. The Bible has a theme of redemption-the old testament points to the promise that God had to redeem His people, while the New Testament points to Jesus as the fulfillment of this promise. Faith in Christ redeems man to God. ...
A point about deism. Einstein never referred to humself as a deist. This is because the deist understanding is that God created the world and now has no further dealings with it- in other words, the deist God is not identical with the universe, he transcends it because he created it.
"Both men can commit whatever acts they want, be them good or bad"
I should have said this in two words: Free will. As far as being good independent of God - only in context of the world's standard's of good and bad or in more familiar terms, relative morality, not God's absolute morality. Sin is a state of being, not a series of actions. "For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God’s laws." James 2:10
Haha, even as a theist I've questioned that. I'd be foolish not to observe this possibility of "flawed thinking." I suppose I can't know...I love cultures and that love for culture has led me to read other holy books. The Bible doesn't always tickle my ears (as in, I don't always want to hear it)...but truth rarely does tickle ears (if something does tickle the ears, best to question it even more fervently).
Wow, so glad I found this. Thanks!🙋🏼♀️
What it comes down to for me is BELIEFS ARE IMPORTANT because they inspire our actions, period. If people believe in all sorts of contradictory claims about incompatible gods then there is going to be trouble. Is it too much to ask (nay, INSIST) that when someone claims an INVISIBLE ALL-POWERFUL BEING EXISTS that they be urged to PROVE IT? Why is FAITH this trump card that always, ALWAYS lets them off the hook? It's *absurd* to leave extraordinary beliefs unchecked, is it not?
thanks for your opinion....I still do not buy the idea that I was formed from 1 cell goo through mutations which diversified into me.
May I ask, do you think the mutations aren't random?
What is the name of the whole documentary?? or this is it??
Actually, there are plenty of psychologists that would back his "opinion,", ma049. A primary one is Maslow, another is Erikson (on development of autonomy and independence), another is even Freud. It's fine to critcize, but unless you are seeking truth and trying to help others find truth, shutting down what another says is not intelligent debate, it's just, to quote you, the "sort of half arsed opinion that one might hear in a bar at 10:30pm when the clientele are putting the world to rights."
I love that last line. It made me laugh when I heard Ravi Zacharias quote that line from Lewis' conversion.
Also, there is such a thing, in my opinion, as a relative truth. These are the only truths which I would consider practical and useful to us in improving our everyday lives.
The problem I have with objective truth is that, like any metaphysical claims, one must judge them to be true seperate from the biases of our emotions, selective perceptive methods etc. in order to judge them as true or existing. This I consider impossible. What do you think?
We are talking past each other. I *agree* that the good that comes out of religion does not require it. I am saying that the bad that comes out of it does not require it *either*. Preachers of intolerance and of compassion all praise a God of the same name. As an atheist can be a humanist, a misanthrope or a nihilist, so too a believer can strive to helping people or to preach their damnation. Your request (you meant *good* thing, right?) a la Hitch is not applicable.
I resent the smooth and ingratiating authority of the narrator's voice for helping me believe half the BS Frontline was peddling back in the aughts. Damn, he's good.
@BeavisNButtheadRock That's completely fair. Trust me, as a theist I am around many Christians who give us bad stereotypes. I just think its vital (And I hope you would agree) that finding truth is the main goal, not putting others down to stroke our own pride.
And I think your life does have meaning, much more than you give it credit. So much more, that a Creator waits for you to acknowledge just how much meaning you have to Him. There is nothing quite so humbling as admitting that mankind doesn't have the universe figured out. And if it be my life based on a lie, at the end of this life, I pay no price. But if your life is based on the lie, at the end of this life, you pay a price. A heavy price, if my "lie" turns out to be truth.
correct me if I'm wrong, but are you implying that there is no such thing as absolute truth? And if thats not it are you implying that absolute truth is unknowable?
I never said I as a believer. The reason I said "it's impossible to prove something's nonexistence" is because I was trying to point out that it's silly to point out that science has not disproven something's existence because that's impossible to do. Likewise, that's why I said the burden of proof is on the believer, not the skeptic. When did I argue in favor of theism?
You asked what standard teachers hold themselves to....I am telling you that a teacher can present different persepectives on truth. Kids are provided tools to find/determine what is reasonable for them regarding truth. Math and Physics has absolutes..... most other disciplines have greys
I wasn't offended, but it is easy to get of topic. You are probably used to debating with religious fundamentalists, and just because we don't have the same attitude toward religion in general doesn't mean that I am one of them. Nor do I think that there isn't a dark side to religion. There is, just like in ANY other aspect of human activity. All I am saying is that religion and fundamentalism/zealotry isn't the same thing - not everywhere, and not usually, though the zealots are loud.